[HN Gopher] Dark patterns
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Dark patterns
Author : ColinWright
Score : 83 points
Date : 2025-07-31 13:17 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nsw.gov.au)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nsw.gov.au)
| altruios wrote:
| I agree that all of these are dark patterns that have been folded
| into most websites.
|
| We should not implement these patterns, or allow them to be
| implemented unchallenged.
| anonu wrote:
| I appreciate the dark pattern enumeration here - but, as an
| American, I find it strange that the Australian Government needs
| to get involved with this PSA.
| altruios wrote:
| Nothing about this is regional to Australia. Every government
| should put out this kind of PSA. Dark patterns make everything
| worse in the long term for short term gain.
| aiisahik wrote:
| Australia is a nanny state. They will attempt to regulate these
| dark patterns next.
| yapyap wrote:
| and that would be bad?
| altruios wrote:
| GOOD!
|
| These NEED to be regulated HEAVILY.
|
| Dark patterns make everything worse, there is no valid reason
| to use them. NONE.
|
| Short term gains from such patterns do not offset the harms
| these patterns cause.
| dsadfjasdf wrote:
| the market learns, then judges you
| standardUser wrote:
| A "nanny state" is a government that stops YOU from doing
| something (which Australia does a lot by Western standards).
| But what you're describing is market regulation.
| Esophagus4 wrote:
| As a fellow American, wouldn't it be similar to the FDA putting
| out a PSA about what baby formula should be avoided?[1] Or
| warning of the dangers of benzone contamination in
| sunscreen?[2] Or the CFPB putting out a PSA on responsible
| credit card practices?
|
| Seems like we have government PSAs too if I'm understanding the
| comment correctly.
|
| [1] https://www.fda.gov/food/alerts-advisories-safety-
| informatio...
|
| [2] https://www.fda.gov/drugs/understanding-over-counter-
| medicin...
| staringback wrote:
| It would be similar to your local state's attorney general,
| since this is from a state government in Australia. NSW has a
| similar population to Washington State, for example.
| lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote:
| > This page describes common dark patterns you will
| encounter online, so you can identify and avoid them when
| shopping online.
|
| I don't know about it being from the Attorney General but
| that seems like something Washington's government might
| want to announce to the state's residents.
| anonu wrote:
| What I put in my mind and what I put in my body should not be
| regulated in the same way. I definitely want the FDA to
| monitor food and drugs and prevent me from getting sick.
| cjs_ac wrote:
| Australia has infamously robust consumer protection laws.
| Because of the high cost of running a business in Australia,
| especially one that involves physical goods, Australians are
| buying ever more things from overseas over the Internet, which
| means more exposure to retailers and subscription services that
| have no Australian presence and therefore can't be subjected to
| Australian law.
|
| Australian governments also take a very paternalistic approach
| to dealing with their citizens. This stems from Australia's
| history as a set of penal colonies.
| rstuart4133 wrote:
| > Australia has infamously robust consumer protection laws.
|
| Infamous if you are a USA business looking to enter
| Australia, maybe? I have seen some hilarious examples of what
| overseas companies expecting to be able to treat Australian
| customers the same was they treat USA citizens, like the top
| half http://www.hp.com.au loudly proclaiming they do NOT
| honour their warranties. (Well, as the link to the ACCC
| explained, they did, but only if you battled your way through
| a thicket of dark patterns.) But, after the lesson is
| learned, major foreign companies do seem honour the letter of
| their warranties in Australia. It must suck to be one of
| their customers outside of Australia.
|
| Bupa appears to be in the process of learning the same
| lesson, after a decade of being pricks to deal with. I'm with
| them. Not by choice. My USA employer pays for health
| insurance, and that's what they give you. It saves me 1000's
| a year, but OMG, Bupa make repeated mistakes that are always
| in their favour, they don't respond when it's pointed out,
| when they are forced to respond because of repeated phone
| calls they outright lie. It took me 3 months to get $200 out
| of them. I did it out of spite in the end, because the $200
| wasn't worth the amount of time they made me spend. And now,
| surprise, surprise: https://www.accc.gov.au/media-
| release/bupa-in-court-for-unco...
|
| > which means more exposure to retailers and subscription
| services that have no Australian presence and therefore can't
| be subjected to Australian law
|
| Yep. I was one of them. I did that, and then got bitten, over
| and over again. Now one of the first things I look for in a
| company I'm buying off is "do they have an ABN (Australia
| Business Number" (It's a tax ID.) If they do, they are
| subject to Australia law, and the risk is at a level I find
| acceptable. If they don't it's a complete lottery. Even for
| cheap things. It's not just the lost money, it's the time you
| waste in dealing with these people, the days of
| correspondence before you realise they aren't acting in good
| faith. You then re-order somewhere local, but now you've lost
| weeks. It's why I buy domains through an Australia mob like
| https://ventraip.com.au/. Yes I've found foreign companies
| that have provided me the same, if not better service at a
| better price. But if every case, that small foreign firm got
| bought out by some bigger company, and I found myself in dark
| pattern hell.
|
| There are exceptions of course. Sites like amazon, ebay and
| alibaba enforce very similar rules on the suppliers they
| allow onto their platforms. But outside of those platforms,
| if I have to deal with a company outside of Australia, the
| first question I ask myself is "am I prepared to throw this
| money away if it all goes sour". It's not a question I bother
| asking myself when dealing with an Australia company.
| fph wrote:
| Right; if they want to get involved, they should go all the way
| and start fining the hell out of them.
| esbranson wrote:
| New South Wales Government, not Australia. So even _more_
| strange, because I doubt NSW could do much re the Australian
| Consumer Law.
| mrtz wrote:
| Funnily, it never states it's New South Wales. Even on the
| "About NSW" page, NSW is never written out.
| flopsamjetsam wrote:
| It's a good point. Everyone living in Australia knows what
| "NSW" means, and it's a website that's almost always only
| used by people living in the state. Except for a page on
| dark patterns :)
|
| Same blindspot as Americans using two-letter codes for
| their states (AZ etc.), or any other country's inhabitants
| using locally-known place names, or not adding their
| country after it.
| netsharc wrote:
| Haha, how curious.
|
| Googling '"new south wales" site:www.nsw.gov.au', some
| pages have it apparently written out in full, but clicking
| through to the e.g. "State Flag" page, they've updated the
| page to say "NSW"!
| slowmotarget wrote:
| Open question: if a bartender greets you with a compliment and a
| wink, and then proceeds to sell you a cocktail, is it a dark
| pattern?
| cwmoore wrote:
| Dimly lit
| zamadatix wrote:
| "Dark pattern" is specific to digital user interfaces, the
| bartender use case might be just called emotional marketing or,
| more plainly, flattery.
|
| Keep in mind, digital or not, not all forms of negatively
| viewed tactics hold the same weight. E.g. a nagging
| confirmation for cancellation is typically viewed less
| negatively than confirm shaming, even though both are often
| listed as types of dark patterns. The type of coercion in the
| bartender example is likely towards the less negative side of
| manipulative tactics in most people's minds.
| dsadfjasdf wrote:
| If he talked the whole time about making a mojito, then gave
| you a water
| rapnie wrote:
| Of course DEI is out the door (already censored in the US) and
| 'dark patterns' is back. While elsewhere it is still being
| replaced with the - more descriptive - 'deception pattern' and
| 'deceptive design'. IETF explored [0] it as inclusive language,
| and they have a .github config file available [1] in their
| "Inclusive Terminology in IETF Documents" repository that has the
| recommendation.
|
| There's a good site on deceptive design [2], which formerly
| existed at darkpatterns.org
|
| [0] https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/id/draft-knodel-
| terminology...
|
| [1] https://github.com/ietf/terminology/blob/main/.github/in-
| sol...
|
| [2] https://www.deceptive.design/
| jimmaswell wrote:
| This one is a stretch. 'Dark pattern' makes me think of
| something like a burglar hiding in the darkness of shadows or
| nighttime, not race.
|
| And the website in question is hosted by the Australian
| government, American censorship doesn't come into the picture..
| rapnie wrote:
| Thanks, I updated the text putting the US bit in parentheses.
|
| For black-list/white-list replacing with block-list/allow-
| list (also more descriptive) is a a clearer example of the
| rationale to change the terminology. In general it is about
| the whole range of feelings and perceptions around "dark" and
| how they lead to biases in people, often without being aware.
| If we become conditioned that uses of "dark" invoke gut
| feelings of sneaky, shady, illegal, secretive, nefarious,
| evil, etc. some of that may seep through in how people with
| dark skin are considered. Whether that is true or not, in any
| case, the alternative terminology being more descriptive, it
| is low-hanging fruit to adopt it.
| zzo38computer wrote:
| > For black-list/white-list replacing with block-
| list/allow-list (also more descriptive) is a a clearer
| example of the rationale to change the terminology.
|
| Sometimes it is more descriptive, but sometimes other words
| will be more descriptive, too. (Usually the words
| "blacklist" and "whitelist" are not hyphenated from what I
| could see, though) Sometimes the list is used to block and
| allow something, but sometimes other words such as exclude
| and include will be better. To really be more descriptive
| you might write e.g. "allow by default but deny whatever is
| listed", and "deny by default but allow only what is
| listed", etc.
|
| > If we become conditioned that uses of "dark" invoke gut
| feelings of sneaky, shady, illegal, secretive, nefarious,
| evil, etc.
|
| At least to me, it does not. It might be secretive
| (because, it is dark, it cannot be seen; however, just
| because it cannot be seen does not necessarily imply that
| they intend to keep it secret and prevent anyone from
| knowing what it is), does not necessarily mean it is
| illegal and nefarious and evil.
|
| > Whether that is true or not, in any case, the alternative
| terminology being more descriptive, it is low-hanging fruit
| to adopt it.
|
| I do agree, if you actually do have a better more
| descriptive terminology, it will be better, although being
| more descriptive can also make the wording too long, so
| that can be a disadvantage too. Also, sometimes words are
| suggested, which do not sound good, or are too similar to
| the other word.
| rapnie wrote:
| > Usually the words "blacklist" and "whitelist" are not
| hyphenated from what I could see, though
|
| Yes, I use blocklist / allowlist myself, without the
| dashes.
|
| > Sometimes the list is used to block and allow
| something, but sometimes other words such as exclude and
| include will be better.
|
| Good example. I agree. Using the most descriptive variant
| is a good practice then, and no need to fall back to a
| vaguer container concept.
| soulofmischief wrote:
| If someone has cognitive dissonance over hearing the word
| "dark" and immediately jumps to a racist interpretation,
| it's really not my problem to fix. Racism exists in many
| forms, and the road to hell is paved in good intentions. I
| would argue that avoiding the word "dark" because it
| reminds you of black people is pretty damned racist.
| zzo38computer wrote:
| I agree that "dark pattern" does not to me think of race,
| either, but I think that "deceptive design" is a better word
| anyways.
| jimmaswell wrote:
| Countdown timers and 'Only 4 left' are often scams, but they
| should note a few sites like eBay get a pass since for simply
| giving true facts about the auction.
| zzo38computer wrote:
| Some things can be mitigated by avoiding CSS and JavaScripts in
| web pages. My idea of a "computer payment file" can also mitigate
| some of them (such as hidden costs, especially hidden recurring
| costs). Forced continuity and some kind of hidden costs probably
| should be made illegal, though (although there are the details to
| be considered; the laws should not be made excessive). Someone
| who uses such a deception could also be given a bad reputation,
| independently from laws, but it would be necessary to avoid a
| monopoly, too. Other things could also be done, such as client
| software on computers to be designed better, and making that you
| should not require specific types of computers (or, in some
| cases, any computer, or any internet connection) for many
| important things.
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