[HN Gopher] Australia widens teen social media ban to YouTube, s...
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       Australia widens teen social media ban to YouTube, scraps exemption
        
       Author : Brajeshwar
       Score  : 112 points
       Date   : 2025-07-30 16:59 UTC (6 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.reuters.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.reuters.com)
        
       | WantonQuantum wrote:
       | It's important to note that this ban is for having an account -
       | it does not ban people under 16 from watching youtube videos.
        
         | general1726 wrote:
         | So you can just log off to bypass it? That seems short sighted.
        
           | azemetre wrote:
           | Not really. It means it's no longer profitable to advertise
           | to teens on most corporate social media.
           | 
           | Anything that moves the needle toward dismantling the
           | advertising and marketing industries will always be a
           | worthwhile endeavor.
        
             | Gud wrote:
             | Why would it no longer be profitable to advertise to teens
             | on YouTube just because they can't have accounts?
        
               | mathiaspoint wrote:
               | Right they'll still have a persistent session that
               | accumulates data for them. Just without the ability to
               | persistent settings, subscriptions etc.
        
               | azemetre wrote:
               | Putting YouTube in the social media ban also removes
               | personalized ads for teenagers. Personalized ad buys are
               | very profitable for companies like Google and Meta.
               | Hurting their ability to make money would only be a net
               | positive for humanity.
        
             | soulofmischief wrote:
             | Anything? Including preventing teens from having an online
             | life?
        
               | azemetre wrote:
               | I had no issue with using the noncorpotized social media
               | as a teen (livejournal, myspace before the buyout,
               | forums, etc). Anything that ruins the might of Meta,
               | Google would be a net positive for society.
               | 
               | Let's not act like the only way to communicate with each
               | other or use the internet is through corporate controlled
               | software.
               | 
               | It would do teenagers good to be forced to use other
               | forms of social media that aren't controlled by companies
               | that don't care about their mental health.
        
               | soulofmischief wrote:
               | You put these laws in place, and they will be used
               | indiscriminately as needed. Anything can become "social
               | media", and if not, it's easy to add a new category to
               | the list since the Overton window has already been
               | allowed to shift.
               | 
               | We the people are vanguards of our own freedom. Always
               | assume a government organization is lying to you about
               | their intentions. We're taught about slippery slopes in
               | civics and history class for a reason.
               | 
               | The true intent here is to control the ability for teens
               | to freely congregate online and contribute to discussion
               | around unsanctioned topics. To prevent teenagers from
               | being exposed to or distributing material that challenges
               | the incumbent authorities.
        
             | Aurornis wrote:
             | > It means it's no longer profitable to advertise to teens
             | on most corporate social media.
             | 
             | Advertisements are targeted on a number of factors. It's
             | not a simple checkbox that says "market this to teens"
        
               | azemetre wrote:
               | It is when they're personalized ads, which is what gets
               | banned under Australia's social media ban for teens.
        
           | yreg wrote:
           | Maybe they target content production, not content
           | consumption?
        
             | tartoran wrote:
             | > Maybe they target content production, not content
             | consumption?
             | 
             | How can you do that on the internet?
             | 
             | What Australia did may be a bit shortsighted but it's a
             | step in the right direction together. Other countries did
             | all sorts of measures such banning smartphone use in
             | classrooms and such. We will figure out what works and what
             | does not, but at least something is being done.
        
               | yreg wrote:
               | >How can you do that on the internet?
               | 
               | Well to upload YouTube videos you obviously need to log
               | in.
        
           | giantg2 wrote:
           | "So you can just log off to bypass it?"
           | 
           | Nobody knows. The government hasn't determined how the age
           | verification will work. A good guess will be that it will
           | require age verified accounts for anyone in that country to
           | access content on those platforms... or a VPN.
        
         | jay_kyburz wrote:
         | Also note: just being logged out won't stop the algo choosing
         | content based on past watches.
        
         | giantg2 wrote:
         | This ban includes watching videos. The law says they must take
         | action to prevent underage persons from accessing their
         | services. This means they will likely have to require login and
         | age verify any accounts. The carve out in the article is
         | talking about teachers and parents being allowed to show the
         | content to the kids.
        
       | asyx wrote:
       | I think that's a really bad idea. I owe my career to YouTube and
       | I think especially these days it's much more useful for learning
       | than it was back then. The whole internet moved to bite sized
       | content but on YouTube you can find hour long videos of people
       | doing really cool and sometimes super niche stuff.
        
         | blahlabs wrote:
         | They are not being banned from watching YouTube.
        
         | 404mm wrote:
         | Asyx, you have an opinion on the ban before reaching the 3rd
         | paragraph of the article. I recommend reading it first.
        
         | [deleted]
        
       | worthless-trash wrote:
       | Please ban comments. Please...
        
       | simpaticoder wrote:
       | Completely banning all of YouTube feels like throwing out the
       | baby--valuable educational content--with the bathwater--
       | everything else. It seems more effective for YouTube to offer a
       | dedicated educational platform, like education.youtube.com, with
       | content filters built in. That way, students could access
       | channels like 3blue1brown without exposure to unrelated or less
       | appropriate content like MrBeast or Jubilee. Heck, I might
       | personally prefer to use that version of YT myself.
        
         | JJMcJ wrote:
         | Do you want mere children exposed to David Attenborough and
         | Mister Rogers?
        
           | Arubis wrote:
           | Can't speak for the Aussies, but if you're a US-inflected
           | conservative today, probably not!
        
             | CoastalCoder wrote:
             | I wish people wouldn't conflate conservatives _per se_ with
             | the Republican /MAGA definition of that term.
             | 
             | I consider myself somewhat conservative in the traditional
             | sense, and yet the Republican platform is almost
             | diametrically opposed to my values.
        
           | mc32 wrote:
           | Oh, is that the majority of their content, traditional
           | educational content? I must be mistaken in thinking they were
           | funneling their audience into "shorts" and that kids
           | obviously naturally recoil from "shorts" as much as they do
           | green veggies and chores...
        
         | OJFord wrote:
         | But this is basically the way for Australian government to try
         | to make YouTube do that isn't it? There's already YouTube Kids,
         | so maybe this makes YouTube think ok we need YouTube Teenz, or
         | YouTube Educational or whatever.
        
           | arebop wrote:
           | YouTube Kids is also full of garbage. The bar to get content
           | into YouTube Kids is substantially higher than YouTube but
           | still the average video's educational quality is abysmal.
           | 
           | There are people at YouTube/Google/Alphabet who care but at
           | the end of the day we get what the invisible hand gives us.
           | Market forces have not yielded a well-curated educational
           | video experience on YouTube.
        
         | kelseyfrog wrote:
         | They can already access 3blue1brown[1] content without youtube.
         | They just have to visit the site with the same name.
         | 
         | 1. https://www.3blue1brown.com/#lessons
        
           | qualeed wrote:
           | That is not the only channel of value on YouTube. Not all of
           | them have a website with their content available.
        
             | kelseyfrog wrote:
             | Can you spell out the standard plainly?
        
               | qualeed wrote:
               | The standard of what?
        
               | kelseyfrog wrote:
               | The channels besides 3blue1brown that would reach parity.
        
           | angry_moose wrote:
           | Those are just page after page of embedded YouTube videos.
           | It's doubtful that's a meaningful difference under this bill.
        
             | kelseyfrog wrote:
             | What are you talking about? You can click on any of the
             | lessons and get text and images.
             | https://www.3blue1brown.com/lessons/essence-of-calculus
        
               | lanfeust6 wrote:
               | Which aren't videos. The entire draw is the video format.
        
               | kelseyfrog wrote:
               | That seems awfully particular.
        
               | schoen wrote:
               | Grant Sanderson's mathematical animations and
               | visualizations are famously excellent, though. He
               | developed his own mathematics animation software just for
               | his channel. I wouldn't think of video as preferable to
               | textbooks for math education in general, but for his sort
               | of videos, I might!
        
             | Aurornis wrote:
             | The bill only bans them from having accounts.
             | 
             | It does not ban them from streaming embedded YouTube videos
             | or even browsing YouTube.com
        
               | giantg2 wrote:
               | "The bill only bans them from having accounts."
               | 
               | No, the bill says they must take reasonable steps to
               | prevent underage persons from accessing their services.
               | Arguably, this means embedded videos will need to be
               | restricted just as the regular site will be.
        
         | RankingMember wrote:
         | I think Google/YouTube would slow-walk the hell out of this
         | only because they are making a ton off of the worst, basest of
         | content and more filters = less eyeballs.
         | 
         | See also: Facebook "efforts" to stop scam advertisements and
         | Marketplace fuckery
        
         | EA-3167 wrote:
         | Putting that aside, the reality is that kids are bored, highly
         | motivated, and networked with each other across the planet.
         | Even more than porn, which is only going to appeal to a subset
         | of kids, "all of Youtube" is definitely a bit more universal.
         | 
         | The major outcome of this legislation should be nothing more
         | than Australian kids being the most familiar with VPN's and
         | very little else, along with other tricks to bypass this.
        
         | dumama wrote:
         | Youtube is optimized for engagement and ad revenue. In my
         | experience, there's more click/rage bait and entertainment than
         | educational content (perhaps that reflects my algorithm haha).
         | Unless there's improved content moderation or media training, I
         | can see how this would ultimately benefit teens as they're
         | minds are still developing.
        
         | armchairhacker wrote:
         | https://nebula.tv seems like it's basically that, just curated
         | podcasts. Although 3blue1brown isn't on there.
        
           | AlexandrB wrote:
           | Nebula is nice, but has a very specific ideological leaning.
           | It's basically paid "breadtube".
        
         | ncruces wrote:
         | As a parent (who also btw uses Google products every single
         | effin day) I just can't agree.
         | 
         | This is entirely Google's issue to fix. Yes, YouTube has
         | amazing educational content. I'd really like to make it
         | available for my kids to see.
         | 
         | YouTube, however, makes it completely impossible to permanently
         | filter/hide/disable the bane that is YouTube Shorts. I don't
         | let my kids on TikTok not because it's Chinese, but because
         | it's trash. I don't allow them near Instagram either.
         | 
         | The chances of kids growing an attention span by seeing
         | interesting stuff in installments of 30 seconds approaches zero
         | really, really fast. Yes there's the possibility telling a fun
         | joke, demonstrating an optical illusion, or some interesting
         | curiosity in under a minute. But it's far more likely that it's
         | trash, _and_ teaching kids (and adults) that if they don 't get
         | a kick of something within the first 10 seconds, it should be
         | skipped.
         | 
         | And it's not necessarily age/quality rating of content; UX
         | matters. It's totally different to find that your kid wasted an
         | hour of their life doom scrolling over 150 videos of which they
         | didn't even complete half, or that they spent it seeing half a
         | dozen things videos of dubious quality: if it's half a dozen
         | it's at least feasible to discuss with them why some are better
         | than others.
         | 
         | So, I'm very close to just banning YouTube (at the DNS level if
         | required). Which is a shame, because I then can't share the
         | interesting stuff with them, and neither can their teachers.
        
           | JKCalhoun wrote:
           | Yeah, no amount of effort allows me to shut off YouTube
           | Shorts.
           | 
           | Imagine you're the one running a business where you keep
           | repeatedly trying to shove some feature down your user's
           | throat.
           | 
           | What's that called in business school? I don't know, I never
           | took any Business courses.
           | 
           | That I have no where else to go to see the content I want to
           | see smells like a de-facto monopoly.
        
             | jordanb wrote:
             | It's a form of bundling.
        
             | lotsofpulp wrote:
             | > That I have no where else to go to see the content I want
             | to see smells like a de-facto monopoly.
             | 
             | Not in this case, since the content makers can choose to
             | host the digital files on a computer not owner by Alphabet.
             | 
             | Your situation is simply the content maker betting that it
             | is not worth their time to try to earn a return by hosting
             | on a non Alphabet computer.
             | 
             | But Alphabet is doing nothing to stop the content maker and
             | you from reaching a deal.
        
               | timschmidt wrote:
               | > But Alphabet is doing nothing to stop the content maker
               | and you from reaching a deal.
               | 
               | They bought DoubleClick, which Microsoft and others felt
               | strongly enough about to warn the FTC that might give
               | Google too much control over online advertising. Seems
               | like Meta is their only real competition on that front
               | these days.
        
             | andy99 wrote:
             | > Imagine you're the one running a business where you keep
             | repeatedly trying to shove some feature down your user's
             | throat.
             | 
             | > What's that called in business school?
             | 
             | Pretty sure it's called inflating metrics. Things that get
             | pushed on you (see many AI features, my pet peeve,
             | especially at google) are not wanted (or they wouldn't need
             | to be pushed) but someone has a big stake in showing
             | uptake, e.g. promises made to investors that this would
             | drive revenue.
        
           | decimalenough wrote:
           | You can completely disable Shorts by turning off your YouTube
           | history.
           | 
           | No idea why, but it works and it's blissful. Plus you can
           | still like videos, subscribe to channels and curate your own
           | lists if you want to bookmark stuff to come back to.
        
             | nullc wrote:
             | unfortunately turning off history kills all forms of
             | suggestions, including ones like "you're subscribed to
             | these things, so perhaps you might also be interested
             | in...", which is the form of recommendation I want the most
             | since it's driven by what I chose to be watching rather
             | than what I've previously watched.
             | 
             | I had assumed the behavior was malicious compliance on
             | Google's part against California law that said no history
             | had to actually mean no history.
        
               | svachalek wrote:
               | I have had history turned off for years. It won't
               | recommend anything on the main feed, but when I watch a
               | video, it recommends more as usual. There's plausible
               | deniability that the recommendations are based on just
               | what I'm watching but in practice that's obviously not
               | true, many recommendations are based on either my
               | subscriptions or my watch history, as they are not
               | related to the video I am watching but are related to my
               | interests.
               | 
               | Since there's not supposed to be any history, I have to
               | trust it's just based on subscriptions. It seems like
               | that could be the case, I guess? But I do have doubts
               | that they do in fact have my history somewhere that's
               | accessible to this recommendation engine.
        
             | ncruces wrote:
             | OK, I didn't know that, though it's not very intuitive.
             | Thanks!
             | 
             | Now, as a parent, I face a tough choice: I have history on
             | the kids accounts precisely because I want to check on it
             | and discuss with them what's good, or less so, to watch.
        
             | svachalek wrote:
             | I've had my history turned off for years, and still get
             | Shorts.
        
           | upboundspiral wrote:
           | I have been able to somewhat reasonably block youtube shorts
           | with the following custom filter ublock origin rules (on
           | firefox at least). Note that it might accidentally hide some
           | legitimate stuff but from my experience it should be pretty
           | minimal if any. I think to hide the shorts from the left
           | sidebar it hides one of your subscribed channels but that's
           | all I've noticed so far.
           | 
           | www.youtube.com##ytd-rich-section-renderer.ytd-rich-grid-
           | renderer.style-scope:nth-of-type(1) www.youtube.com##ytd-
           | rich-section-renderer.ytd-rich-grid-renderer.style-scope:nth-
           | of-type(2) www.youtube.com##ytd-rich-section-renderer.ytd-
           | rich-grid-renderer.style-scope:nth-of-type(4)
           | www.youtube.com##ytd-guide-entry-renderer.ytd-guide-section-
           | renderer.style-scope:nth-of-type(2)
        
         | AlexandrB wrote:
         | The bathwater is not any specific piece of content but the
         | YouTube discovery and recommendation algorithm. As long as
         | that's in place, there will be incentive to create terrible
         | "slop" content to get into "education.youtube.com" and collect
         | ad revenue. The same thing happened with kids.youtube.com[1]
         | and I don't see a solution other than hand-curating channels
         | for inclusion.
         | 
         | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elsagate
        
           | anigbrowl wrote:
           | Well put. I do not agree with the clumsy approach taken by
           | countries like Australia, UK, and Texas, but I absolutely
           | consider youtube and social media problems responsible for
           | the tsunami of lowest-common-denominator slop. Free
           | market/user choice idealists need to face up to the fact that
           | slops is bad and lowers standards rather than elevating them,
           | because the economic incentives tilt in favor of low quality,
           | sensationalism, and so on. To some extent that's a reflection
           | of the viewing/clicking population, but that doesn't mean
           | that you should always just give people more of what they
           | want. We tried that with high fructose corn syrup and the
           | result is whole populations ravaged by obesity and diabetes.
        
             | __d wrote:
             | To state it plainly:
             | 
             | We humans, when given enticing bad choices, will often give
             | in to the enticement.
             | 
             | That universal tendency can be overcome by strict
             | application of willpower, which can have long-term
             | benefits.
             | 
             | It is possible to exploit this tendency to make money. And
             | so, by recursive application of this principle, we arrive
             | at 2025.
        
         | crtasm wrote:
         | >The ban outlaws YouTube accounts for those younger than 16,
         | allowing parents and teachers to show videos on it to minors.
         | 
         | But you don't need an account to watch most videos on youtube,
         | so this isn't banning all of youtube.. right?
        
           | giantg2 wrote:
           | The law says providers need to prevent minors from accessing
           | their services. This likely means that YouTube will require
           | an age verified login.
        
         | hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
         | My thought was that a version of YouTube that:
         | 
         | 1. Had no opaque algorithmic feeds
         | 
         | 2. No comment sections
         | 
         | 3. Have a "show me more content like this" button, but again,
         | no auto algorithmic feeds
         | 
         | 4. Filter out age inappropriate content.
         | 
         | would be great for teenagers. I think the problem for YouTube
         | is that it would be great for everyone else, too, so they'd get
         | bombarded by "Hey, I want that version" requests, which would
         | clearly make them less money.
         | 
         | There is no moral high ground with basically any online
         | platforms, it's all solely based on financials, and people
         | should realize this.
        
           | glial wrote:
           | 5. No "Shorts"
        
           | hasperdi wrote:
           | This exists. It's called YouTube Kids
        
             | hn_throwaway_99 wrote:
             | Yeah, but there is a gaping difference between content for
             | kids (i.e. 12 and under) and content for teenagers.
             | 
             | Most teenage-appropriate content would be enjoyed by adults
             | too (e.g. lots of how-tos, educational content, music,
             | entertainment, etc.) Most adults are not going to be into
             | watching Blues Clues or whatever, which is why YouTube
             | doesn't have to worry about cannibalizing more profitable
             | content/algorithms for adults due to the existence of
             | YouTube Kids.
        
             | ImJamal wrote:
             | It doesn't meet requirement #4 (Filter out age
             | inappropriate content). You can find many articles and
             | videos, over the years, about all the inappropriate stuff
             | making it into YouTube Kids.
        
           | signatoremo wrote:
           | > Have a "show me more content like this" button, but again,
           | no auto algorithmic feeds
           | 
           | What kind of content would you envision to be shown? Says if
           | I want to watch more car review videos
        
         | guywithahat wrote:
         | Yeah but how do you decide who's educational content and who
         | isn't? Mr Beast does tons of "educational" videos in the
         | context of "$1 vs $10,000,000 house" or "living in Antarctica
         | for a week". Same with Jubilee.
         | 
         | The real big-brain move is understanding this isn't about
         | protecting kids, and there isn't really anything YouTube can do
         | long-term. Australia has been going after US big tech for a
         | long time
        
         | anothereng wrote:
         | I use invidious to watch YouTube and have no shorts.
        
         | jeffybefffy519 wrote:
         | Youtube has gotten so much worse in the last 6 months tho,
         | introduction of shorts has devalued the platform terribly and
         | it seems like all the good educational creators are moving off
         | it anyway and now its just ripped crap that is often AI
         | produced. Hopefully this move makes some actual competition
         | show up for Youtube, because it sorely needs it.
        
       | Jalad wrote:
       | Interesting, I find that youtube is a great resource for
       | educational content and was very useful in highschool etc.
       | 
       | This seems like throwing the baby out with the bathwater, but to
       | be fair AI and really toxic context wasn't as big of a thing when
       | I was in highschool
        
       | bananapub wrote:
       | adding more laws that will be universally ignored by anyone with
       | a small amount of thought and effort feels like a stupid way to
       | solve anything, but it is absolutely the Australian Way. to
       | quote[0] a noted philosopher:
       | 
       | > weird how a foundational myth of australia is that we're a
       | nation of subversive larrikins, when in actuality everyone here
       | is an ultracop
       | 
       | 0: https://nitter.net/tfswebb/status/976299234491121665?lang=en
        
         | trallnag wrote:
         | Where does this myth come from? It's quite the opposite. For
         | example, around 30 years ago hundreds of thousands of
         | Australians willingly handed in their guns. And they accepted
         | new laws that mostly prevented them from owning guns, and by
         | that using them for self-defense.
        
           | viktorcode wrote:
           | I think that was a buyout. Government offered money for the
           | guns.
        
             | psunavy03 wrote:
             | That's irrelevant to the argument that was being made.
             | Confiscation for payment is still confiscation; see also
             | "eminent domain."
        
           | incone123 wrote:
           | About that time my then boss handed in his guns, 'willingly'
           | only in that he wasn't daft enough to think he could beat the
           | police in a firefight.
        
         | SoftTalker wrote:
         | The only entities that can possibly control Facebook and Google
         | are nation-states. If there is to be any regulation of them (or
         | the content they push) at all, that's where it has to happen.
         | These giant tech companies have demonstrated that they don't
         | care to do it themselves. Of course individuals can decide to
         | use these platforms or not, but if that was good enough to
         | achieve the society most of us want to live in, we wouldn't
         | need 90% of the laws we currently have.
        
           | jon-wood wrote:
           | Sadly nation states, or at least the ones acting currently,
           | seem to think the only thing available is a banned or not
           | binary. There's no nuance to laws because nuance is hard to
           | get into a 1 paragraph sound bite for the media.
           | 
           | We're seeing the same thing in the UK currently with fuzzy
           | definitions of what does and doesn't need age verification,
           | and even what verification means, and that's leading to
           | completely harmless communities shutting down to avoid having
           | to risk being in the wrong while the megacorps just hoover up
           | some more metadata about users.
        
             | SoftTalker wrote:
             | Banning inappropriate things, whether media, alcohol,
             | smoking, driving, etc. for young people is pretty much the
             | long-established way of regulating what they do.
        
       | spicyusername wrote:
       | Under, say, 10-12 or so, I can understand a blanket ban. In
       | general, the YouTube content aimed at children is pretty vapid
       | and encourages too many parents to use it as parenting auto-
       | pilot.
       | 
       | But so much YouTube content is educational or otherwise has
       | significant utility for older children or adults. Seems like a
       | pretty big misstep to outright ban it.
       | 
       | And that doesn't even get to the thorny question of how this is
       | supposed to even be enforced...
       | 
       | Then again, it may be better to do SOMETHING to start making
       | these tech companies take solving these problems themselves
       | seriously. Hard problem to solve, for sure.
        
         | soulofmischief wrote:
         | Ridiculous. Would we have had a similar ban against flash video
         | and game websites growing up if it were today? Against AOL
         | Instant Messenger?
         | 
         | I already had a local net nanny software to contend with, if
         | the government had also tried preventing me from participating
         | in online culture, assuming I didn't kill myself because of a
         | lack of escape from my abusive situation, I would 100% have
         | ended up being an absolute menace to the government in defiance
         | and retaliation.
         | 
         | I would have opened myself up to fraud charges creating
         | accounts with private information from adults. And once I was
         | over the wall of censorship, I'd only find adults and other
         | criminally-minded children. I'd be on a conveyor belt to more
         | serious crimes. Is that what we want the next generation of
         | computer enthusiasts to grow up with?
        
           | spicyusername wrote:
           | We're talking about 8-year-olds here not 15-year-olds, and a
           | website intended for passive consumption, not active
           | participation.
           | 
           | I would say the circumstances are pretty different.
        
             | soulofmischief wrote:
             | When I was 8, I was already hacking around net nanny
             | software and involved in several online communities
             | operated by other children, I was learning how to program
             | and hack and generally use the internet as a gateway into
             | culture that I otherwise never would have experienced.
             | 
             | I tried involving myself in a lot of communities related to
             | my interests, but some sites were just for entertainment
             | and not active participation, or I simply didn't
             | participate in the community. That doesn't change anything.
             | 
             | Now a software engineer and artist, my entire life was
             | shaped by that time, and as I said, I likely would have
             | committed suicide due to my abusive situation if it wasn't
             | for these communities.
             | 
             | I will always fight to provide that kind of environment for
             | others and not pull up the ladder now that I've climbed up.
        
         | __d wrote:
         | If you substitute the word "television" for "YouTube" or
         | "social media", you can almost exactly replay the arguments of
         | the 1970s.
        
           | spicyusername wrote:
           | Except in this case the content is basically totally
           | unmoderated and mediated through an algorithm designed to
           | keep the childrens attention permanently, so I would say the
           | circumstances are at least a little different than back then.
        
             | __d wrote:
             | Yes. And yet.
             | 
             | It's like every generation gets fixated on something new
             | which can be perceived as moral decay and societal harm,
             | and then rails against it. Making it even more popular with
             | the younger generation, of course.
             | 
             | I've seen the same thing play out with rock music,
             | television, computer games, and now social media. There's
             | likely examples back throughout history.
             | 
             | I think you can mount an argument against all of these
             | things. In retrospect though, it doesn't hold up. I wonder
             | if social media is the same?
        
               | spicyusername wrote:
               | YouTube isn't social media, though... It's basically just
               | television with a massive amount of really really bad
               | channels.
        
       | ccppurcell wrote:
       | It's not throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I don't know
       | what the right metaphor is. Throwing the scrap of edible meat out
       | with the ton of rotten flesh? YouTube has got really bad in
       | recent years. There are channels deliberately trying to get
       | through to kids with horrific content. And of course the tobacco,
       | gambling and sugar industries trying to turn our kids into
       | addicts. They are often only one or two clicks away from
       | extremely inappropriate content.
        
         | sirwhinesalot wrote:
         | That edible meat is close to being the only edible thing around
         | though. Can you really name anything on the level of
         | 3Blue1Brown available for free?
         | 
         | Hopefully this forces Youtube to set up a limited educational
         | version that the Australian government would be ok with.
        
           | somenameforme wrote:
           | Most (all?) top universities have free educational content,
           | often including entire courses, available. For instance here
           | [1] is MIT's open courseware site where you can download all
           | the required media, including lecture video/notes/problem
           | sets/exams/etc, for courses - completely for free.
           | 
           | Things like this are generally going to be orders of
           | magnitude better than any YouTube video.
           | 
           | [1] - https://ocw.mit.edu/
        
             | sirwhinesalot wrote:
             | Sadly I disagree. Those resources are great but they don't
             | come close to the visualization work 3Blue1Brown makes.
             | Many subjects only clicked for me after watching his
             | videos.
        
           | rhdunn wrote:
           | 1. Welch Labs (Complex Numbers, AI)
           | 
           | 2. Mathologer (Various maths-related theorems and properties)
           | 
           | 3. Simon Roper, Colin Gorrie (Old English)
           | 
           | 4. Jackson Crawford (Norse)
           | 
           | 5. Doctor Mix (Synthesizers; Recreating classic songs)
           | 
           | 6. Numberphile / Computerphile / Sixty Symbols / etc.
           | 
           | 7. NativLang
           | 
           | 8. Artifexian, Biblaridion, etc. -- ConLang and Speculative
           | Biology, but also cover linguistic, geographical, and
           | biological topics where relevant
        
         | RankingMember wrote:
         | Besides content harmful to kids, there's a ton that's harmful
         | to just about any human psyche from a social or personal
         | perspective. I wasn't aware of how bad it was until I recently
         | browsed Youtube.com from an incognito window and saw the
         | default experience- it's rage bait, misinformation, and just
         | straight mental junk food. My logged-in experience is nothing
         | like that, thankfully, but I can't imagine throwing a kid into
         | a fresh YouTube account and them needing to pare that down (or
         | even having the critical thinking skills to do so).
        
           | showcaseearth wrote:
           | +100 here. I think everyone should try this exercise- browse
           | outside your algorithm. It's a sea of garbage to sort
           | through.
        
         | SlowTao wrote:
         | This is probably why I havent seen YouTube as being a big
         | issue. The algorithm on my account is so tightened up that non
         | of that stuff bleeds through. So while I don't see the issues
         | directly it is because they are kept away from me.
         | 
         | I do get the very occastionally glimpse when I have to log in
         | fresh and the recommendations on the front page are not great.
         | 
         | This whole situation leaves me very torn. Great arguments on
         | both sides. I just hope it isnt a trogan horse to online
         | digital IDs being linked to all content access.
        
       | nottorp wrote:
       | It bans _accounts_ on youtube not watching, I think?
        
       | m101 wrote:
       | Perhaps this will mean a version of YouTube comes out without
       | YouTube shorts integration. YouTube shorts, imo, legitimises the
       | govts complaint.
        
         | ivanmontillam wrote:
         | I really wish there was a version of YT in Android that did not
         | come with YT Shorts. As a YT Premium user, I should be able to
         | disable it, or at least not make it the first thing it opens
         | when I tap on the app icon.
         | 
         | I mean, a legit app, not a 3rd party one that'll get my Google
         | account banned eventually.
         | 
         | I had to delete it, using:                   $ adb shell pm
         | uninstall --user 0 com.google.android.youtube
         | 
         | It lasted a month for me that way; then I installed it, and
         | after a week or two I fell into the old habit of Doomscrolling
         | and had to nuke it again.
         | 
         | TikTok/Reels/Shorts format is really, really exploitative on
         | the mind.
        
           | simmerup wrote:
           | I've recently started watching shorts. I blink and an hour
           | has passed!
           | 
           | Ridiculous. Adding insult to injury, a significant portion of
           | them seem to be AI generated
        
           | Avamander wrote:
           | As a premium user I should be able to add content "made for
           | kids" to playlists and see comments as well. It's absolutely
           | idiotic how "save the children" is just an excuse to fuck
           | over everyone else.
        
           | j1elo wrote:
           | You know, the current best option is not exactly a 3rd party
           | app but an original app with some patches applied to it. Of
           | course in the end you're trusting someone out there, but hey
           | the patches are FOSS so they can be downloaded, reviewed, and
           | applied locally.
           | 
           | The feeling of a cleaned-up front page without addictive
           | shorts or clickbait thumbnails is refreshing... and,
           | ironically (as it usually happens), a much better experience,
           | not to speak mentally healthier for anyone, especially a kid.
        
           | Kwpolska wrote:
           | As a free YouTube user, I was able to disable the Shorts
           | stuff by disabling watch history on my YouTube account. I can
           | watch shorts from my subscriptions only, on the subscriptions
           | tab, by explicitly clicking on them.
        
         | amelius wrote:
         | People would go to TikTok if shorts were removed.
        
           | mitthrowaway2 wrote:
           | People who want shorts would go to TikTok. People who keep
           | clicking the "don't show me Shorts" button are probably not
           | using TikTok in the first place.
        
         | foobarian wrote:
         | I would love to block the shorts at home router level. I
         | hesitate to just block the site altogether
        
       | ChrisArchitect wrote:
       | [dupe] Discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44732683
        
       | 9rx wrote:
       | _> "YouTube is a video sharing platform with a library of free,
       | high-quality content [...] It's not social media."_
       | 
       | Aren't "sharing platforms" and "social media" the same thing? I
       | understand a long time ago there was a dream that people would
       | produce and share as much content as they consume, and that is
       | what social media was supposed to be in reference to, but that
       | imagined world never happened. Social media, as used to refer to
       | any practical service in the real world, has always been about
       | one-sided content being shared to a mostly consumer-only
       | audience.
       | 
       |  _> increasingly viewed on TV screens_
       | 
       | Are people digging old Trinitrons out of the trash, or what? If
       | you try to buy a new "TV", you are going to get a computer with a
       | large monitor instead.
        
         | lvass wrote:
         | >Aren't "sharing platforms" and "social media" the same thing?
         | 
         | Meta claimed in FTC v. Meta that they are indeed the same.
        
       | non- wrote:
       | Teens are old enough to find their way around any content bans.
       | This seems like a good way to introduce teens to VPN's and
       | skirting content regulations early. It's also dumb because
       | YouTube can teach you almost anything, I'd say it's the "best of
       | the worst" when it comes to social media on the internet.
        
         | 28304283409234 wrote:
         | My teens, and each one I have encountered through them, cannot
         | discern a pixel from a wallsocket. They are tech consumers. Not
         | tech savvy. My dad (82) is more tech savvy.
        
           | the_snooze wrote:
           | Exactly, teens have tons of access to tech. But that tech is
           | just a straw through which to consume an endless stream of
           | content. It's not a tool to master and manipulate.
        
           | jay_kyburz wrote:
           | My 13yo wanted to install some dotnet disassembly or
           | injection tool so he could download mods and inject new code
           | into existing games on steam. All his friends were doing it
           | and I'm the mean dad because I won't let him download any
           | random code from the internet and run it.
           | 
           | They don't know what they are doing, but they know how to
           | follow instructions on github.
        
             | foobarian wrote:
             | If this were my kid I would rejoice and thank my lucky
             | stars
        
           | SlowTao wrote:
           | For now. Maybe this will be the incentive to get them to dig
           | into how these things work.
        
           | standardUser wrote:
           | Your kids don't need to be savvy, just a small number of kids
           | will create the culture and technology to circumvent these
           | laws and other kids will consume it. And the sharpest kids
           | will always outflank the adults because their perspectives
           | are fresher and their motivations are far more personal and
           | urgent.
        
         | ncruces wrote:
         | Good, at least they'll learn a useful skill in the process.
         | 
         | Unlike what happens if they open the app and are pushed to doom
         | scroll through dozens of videos on every 10 min school break.
        
         | JKCalhoun wrote:
         | > "best of the worst"
         | 
         | Such a low bar.
        
       | seydor wrote:
       | This is raising a generation of radicalized teens with
       | institutionalized hatred against the older generation. Will end
       | well
        
         | lanfeust6 wrote:
         | That was already the case.
        
         | simmerup wrote:
         | You mean YouTube (and social media in general)?
         | 
         | If so, you can expand it to hating those younger than
         | themselves, hating the opposite gender, and hating each other
        
         | jjangkke wrote:
         | More likely this will force them to be right wing as they get
         | older. Young ppl arent digging left wing stuff as trends show
         | many are shifting to conservatism.
        
           | __d wrote:
           | That's not universally true.
           | 
           | In Australia, young people skew significantly progressive,
           | and young woman even more so.
        
             | jjangkke wrote:
             | it is is the dominating trend globally in OECD countries
        
         | neilv wrote:
         | Hatred/resentment, maybe.
         | 
         | What could be great is a _revolutionary_ generation. But I don
         | 't see that happening. We've already been dumbed-down, and
         | indoctrinated into a selfish and therefore neutered culture.
        
       | forgotoldacc wrote:
       | A couple months ago, I saw people everywhere online (including
       | HN) saying they love the idea of social media bans for kids. They
       | love the idea of keeping people under 18 safe from the dangers of
       | porn and mature games and other unclean things as well.
       | 
       | Now governments around the world are acting in unison to happily
       | give those people what they want, and people are suddenly
       | confused and pissed that these laws mean you need to submit proof
       | that you're over 18. And instead of being an annoying checkbox
       | that says "I'm 18. Leave me alone", it's needing to submit a
       | selfie and ID photo to be verified, saved, and permanently bound
       | to your every single action online.
       | 
       | People who asked for social media bans for kids got what they
       | wanted. They'll have to live with the consequences for the rest
       | of their lives. We all will.
        
         | RankingMember wrote:
         | I think the concern about how this will be implemented (e.g.
         | selfie and ID submission) is well-founded. I also think that
         | letting tech companies make billions by feeding our youth
         | mental junk food is a problem. I'm not sure where the middle
         | path is, but I think it'll need some real thought to figure
         | out.
        
           | Bukhmanizer wrote:
           | If you didn't realize that making teens verify their age
           | online meant that everyone had to verify their age and
           | identity online, that's just a dangerous level of stupidity.
           | 
           | The issue is everyone wants some quick and easy solution when
           | the truth is we're going to need to get much more intentional
           | as a society about this. Take phone bans. Everyone wants to
           | ban phones from schools/classrooms, but the truth is in a lot
           | of places phones are already banned from school. But we've
           | spent the last 3 decades taking away any power from teachers
           | to enforce their rules so kids just do it anyway.
        
         | JKCalhoun wrote:
         | > People who asked for social media bans for kids got what they
         | wanted. They'll have to live with the consequences for the rest
         | of their lives. We all will.
         | 
         | I guess I'm fine with not visiting any of these age-restricted
         | sites. They're not the thing I would miss if the whole internet
         | shut down. (In fact, there's precious little I would miss --
         | maybe just archive.org?)
        
           | stavros wrote:
           | He said, on an online forum.
        
           | kristopolous wrote:
           | If "save the children" creates enough friction to bring the
           | demise of social media then I'll go lay a flower on Anita
           | Bryant's grave and tell her I'm sorry.
        
           | XorNot wrote:
           | It's going to be _every_ website. There will be no place they
           | will stop. You think a forum like this one where it 's
           | conceivably possible someone in a bad category could interact
           | with someone under the age of 16, however unlikely, won't be
           | regulated?
           | 
           | "But sir! The largest websites on the internet implement
           | Government ID Age Check. Just federate with one of those, why
           | are you complaining so much? Don't you want to protect the
           | children or stop anti-Semitism or something?"
        
         | jjangkke wrote:
         | When I mentioned that any attempt at identifying users to
         | access or write content is a trojan horse for a wide
         | surveillance yet HN users downvoted and flagged such comments
         | and were zealously supportive of "prottecct kidz"
         | 
         | In the late 90s and early 2000s we as teenagers had access to
         | unfiltered internet and unregulated. The harm to us were
         | largely moral fanaticism, this was when they also tried to ban
         | video games because of violent content and now we have complete
         | censorship and control over what games can sell or not on
         | steam.
         | 
         | Much of the panic on social media amplified by protestants and
         | religious ppl are greatly exaggerated. Porn isnt the danger its
         | the addictive tendencies of the individual that must be
         | educated upon.
        
         | j1elo wrote:
         | > _it 's needing to submit a selfie and ID photo to be
         | verified, saved, and permanently bound to your every single
         | action online._
         | 
         | And leaked every 6 months, now including your ID photos and
         | real name instead of an internet pseudonym, and lots of other
         | sweet details that make extortion schemes a child's play
        
       | SilverElfin wrote:
       | Why are so many countries like Australia, UK, EU, etc suddenly
       | pro censorship. Aren't these all liberal democracies? I would
       | think these policies would be very unpopular. Is there some
       | analysis of how this came to be normalized?
        
         | aspbee555 wrote:
         | this is why "think of the children" is always used in these
         | instances, it gets right past peoples defenses and if you try
         | to argue against privacy invasive/life invasive/completely
         | useless regulations/regulations ripe for abuse (by design) then
         | you are somehow the "bad guy"
        
         | jay_kyburz wrote:
         | I'm an everyday Australian, I'll take a few guesses. (I don't
         | support these new laws)
         | 
         | 1. we don't have as an antagonistic relationship with our
         | government and we trust that most of what will be banned will
         | be gross stuff we don't want weirdos watching.
         | 
         | 2. I think most people feel social media really is breaking
         | young people, and its easier if all kids are banned than just
         | trying to ban your own kids. It's really hard to explain to a
         | kid why they are not allowed to watch you tube when every other
         | kid is.
         | 
         | Update: Also, the only thing this law is going to do is to
         | force every parent in Australia to create accounts for their
         | kids.
        
         | t0lo wrote:
         | I'm an australian who completed the esafety survey which helped
         | guide this policy. I pushed for anonymous temporary age
         | verification tokens generated through a government app.
         | 
         | Social media is undermining the fabric of our societies and
         | destroying a whole generations emotional development. I support
         | this- in part because I know those who want to get around
         | enough or be private will always find a way, but it has a
         | positive, reality affirming effect on the public.
         | 
         | Watch the press conference from our PM and comms minister from
         | yesterday to understand that this is coming from a place of
         | compassion or control. They have said repeatedly they will
         | always ensure a non id method is ensured. I know there are
         | flaws in that though.
         | https://youtu.be/SCSMQUmrh38?feature=shared
        
       | general1726 wrote:
       | So they will start using YouTube Revanced. What now?
        
       | dang wrote:
       | Related ongoing thread:
       | 
       |  _YouTube to be included in Australia 's social media ban for
       | children under 16_ -
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44732683 - July 2025 (117
       | comments)
       | 
       | (I haven't merged that one hither because it's quite a bit more
       | generic than this one.)
        
       | wewewedxfgdf wrote:
       | The Australian Prime Minister - Anthony Albanese - was once asked
       | by a radio host what he would do if he was dictator - he said he
       | would ban all social media.
       | 
       | And lets note that the ALP government is very fast and snappy to
       | ban social media, very slow to do important things like:
       | 
       | - ban money laundering in real estate
       | 
       | - ban gambling advertising
       | 
       | And very quick to:
       | 
       | - approve massive new coal mines
       | 
       | - approve massive new natural gas projects
       | 
       | The Australian government hates social media because that's where
       | the people get to say what they think of the governmnent - in
       | real time.
       | 
       | The social media companies have missed a crucial point about
       | doing business in Australia - you must be paying your dues to the
       | political parties and you must be paying big taxes. This is what
       | the mining and gambling and fosil fuel companies do, and the
       | Australian government does backflips to give them what they want.
        
         | netsharc wrote:
         | Ah yes, because it's the teenage vote and social media voice
         | they're very very worried about...
        
           | soulofmischief wrote:
           | Uh, yea, it is. Teenagers grow up. In just a few short years.
           | Then they become members of the voting group most vulnerable
           | to propaganda and political manipulation. It's the same
           | reason tobacco and alcohol companies love advertising to
           | teens. You're creating a target that can be identified,
           | manipulated and controlled through social reinforcement.
           | 
           | Teens also have more time to connect with others and develop
           | unsanctioned philosophies than adults who work and take care
           | of the household full-time.
        
         | __d wrote:
         | The social media ban is broadly popular. The clear majority of
         | voters support it. It's a political win for the government to
         | push this through, over the objections from Google, Meta, etc.
         | 
         | The fact that social media makes a stack of money in Australia
         | but manages to pay almost no tax absolutely impacts their fate:
         | both with the government and the voters.
         | 
         | Some of the popularity of this legislation might even come from
         | it being seen as sticking it to "techbros".
         | 
         | Banning eg coal mining, online gambling, etc, is vastly less
         | popular. And they contribute to employment, revenue (via
         | taxes), and they lobby/donate effectively.
         | 
         | Social media could easily have avoided this, as other
         | industries have, but they decided not to. They might yet be
         | able to leverage US tariffs though?
        
       | like_any_other wrote:
       | If only there was some kind of parental control software
       | available, there would be no need to further expand state
       | surveillance and repression. Unfortunately, this is the only way,
       | that the government only reluctantly resorted to, after much
       | public outcry, and after having tried many other non-invasive,
       | freedom- and privacy-respecting measures, that have all failed...
        
         | SlowTao wrote:
         | Yep, it seems like a failure on all parties. Government, civil
         | and corporate.
         | 
         | Hyper optimization of attention to drive up profits for the
         | sake of share holders while ignoring the externalities was a
         | terrible idea but in a capitalist system, they are the winners.
        
       | binary132 wrote:
       | I don't see what the big deal is. Nobody has ground to stand on
       | in asserting that minors have a moral right to an "online life".
       | On the other hand, there are tons of good reasons to disallow
       | minors from participating in the free online commons. I'm not
       | saying I necessarily support it in all cases, but I definitely
       | don't think it's necessarily a bad or immoral thing either, and
       | it's a bit surprising that a bunch of extremely online tech
       | jockeys seem to.
        
         | Avamander wrote:
         | The deal is that everyone shouldn't be subjected to invasive
         | identity verification just to not be considered children. Not
         | only is this process generally vaguely specified in depth, it's
         | a massive (financial) burden for most online platforms. The
         | effect this kind of legislation has, has not been properly
         | thought out.
         | 
         | Large corporations' eagerness to implement this legislation
         | should be a MASSIVE red flag alone. How do they benefit from
         | this? I can think of a few ways.
         | 
         | Track record also shows that we can't properly do biometric
         | data collection like this. This will end up in massive data
         | leaks, if not people's IDs then at least faces. Congrats,
         | you've given some scammers a full dataset for impersonating
         | people.
         | 
         | Not only that, most noninvasive methods for age verification
         | are dumb and ineffective with the AI options available today.
         | Not to mention five or ten years.
         | 
         | So now you've got a vague unspecified and relatively nanny-
         | state goal combined with ineffective and invasive methods and
         | malicious compliance with immensely negative side effects. It
         | is not worth it.
         | 
         | It's akin to wanting every restaurant that sells beer to card
         | everyone at the entrance and store it in a database. Do we
         | perhaps also want lists of minorities to better "protect" them?
         | 
         | "Oh, you bought lava cake? That's children's favourite, please
         | show us your ID to see that you're not a child or we'll take
         | the cake away."
        
         | jackdawipper wrote:
         | yea but that isnt why they are doing it. they dont gaf about
         | kids, they want total control of the populace online behaviour
         | and this is steps in that direction.
         | 
         | what fascinates me most, is when people dont realise this.
        
       | giantg2 wrote:
       | Its a little bit of a stretch to call YouTube social media. There
       | are tons of great instructional videos.
       | 
       | The real kicker to me is that the government has passed a law
       | restricting access yet they haven't determined how they're going
       | to enforce an age check. It's wild that they passed a law without
       | consideration to it's mechanics or feasibility.
        
         | jeffybefffy519 wrote:
         | Is mechanics of enforcement really a government thing tho?
        
           | coolestguy wrote:
           | No you're right, thinking about laws & second order effects
           | isn't a government thing
        
           | sophacles wrote:
           | Um... its a law. And yes, law enforcement is widely
           | considered a government thing. See also: police.
        
             | observationist wrote:
             | Good thing the internet police will be there to ensure
             | those laws are enforced. Great job, Australia!
        
         | y1426i wrote:
         | It should at least be possible to ban YouTube shorts. I wish
         | those were served from a separate domain to make it easier to
         | block just those.
        
           | exasperaited wrote:
           | I would love to see more scrutiny of short content because it
           | is without doubt the most manipulative.
        
           | andriamanitra wrote:
           | It's not too much effort to find uBlock Origin filter lists
           | that hide them. The only time I see YouTube shorts is when I
           | deliberately navigate to the shorts tab on a channel page.
        
         | exasperaited wrote:
         | > It's wild that they passed a law without consideration to
         | it's mechanics or feasibility.
         | 
         | It's not. Much of the world's governments (particularly those
         | that follow the UK system) implement smaller laws and then
         | delegate the implementation to statutory instruments/secondary
         | legislation, written by experts and then adopted by ministers.
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_and_secondary_legislat...
         | 
         | (Australia included)
         | 
         | It seems suboptimal, but then so does the alternative of a "big
         | beautiful bill" full of absurd detail where you have people
         | voting it into law who not only _haven 't fucking read it_ but
         | are now not ashamed that not only have _they_ not fucking read
         | it, nobody on their staff was tasked with fucking reading it
         | and fucking telling them what the fuck is in it.
         | 
         | Lighter weight laws that establish intent and then legally
         | require the creation of statutory instruments tend to make
         | things easier, particularly when parliament can scrutinise the
         | statutory instruments and get them modified to better fit the
         | intent of the law.
         | 
         | It also means if no satisfactory statutory instrument/secondary
         | legislation can be created, the law exists on the books
         | unimplemented, of course, but it allows one parliament to set
         | the direction of travel and leave the implementation to
         | subsequent parliaments, which tends to stop the kind of
         | whiplash we see in US politics.
         | 
         | ETA: for example, the secondary legislation committee in the
         | UK, which is cross-party, is currently scrutinising these:
         | 
         | https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/255/secondary-leg...
        
           | giantg2 wrote:
           | There is a happy medium. The big beautiful bill stuff is not
           | normal. There are some states that have single issue clauses
           | where the bill must be a single issue, resulting in more
           | concise bills. Enforcement and rules can be made by agencies
           | too. I think the whiplash is more of a two party thing since
           | the bipartisan ones rarely flip-flop. The other stuff barely
           | passes. We would still have whiplash even if implementation
           | were left to another congress because it would still barely
           | pass.
        
             | exasperaited wrote:
             | > We would still have whiplash even if implementation were
             | left to another congress because it would still barely
             | pass.
             | 
             | Not so, not if it were left to cross-party committees. By
             | and large even the US system seems to have functional
             | committees when you ignore a few grandstanders.
             | 
             | Unfortunately the US system seemingly tends towards
             | creating _massive_ legislation, partly because of the
             | absence of this secondary legislation distinction, and
             | partly because of the really interesting difference in the
             | way it approaches opposition. In most of the world, if your
             | bill passes with a huge majority, it 's a good sign.
             | 
             | From my external perspective, it appears that in the USA, a
             | bill passing with a huge majority is often seen as a
             | significant failure, because opposition is so much more
             | partisan and party loyalty battles so much more brutal, and
             | the system so nearly two-party 50:50 deadlocked at all
             | times, that if you get what you want with a huge majority,
             | you _weren 't asking for enough_.
             | 
             | So what tends to happen is that a bill starts off with a
             | strong majority and then gets loaded down with extra, often
             | tangentially-related detail, until it is _juuuust_ going to
             | squeak through.
             | 
             | The primary/secondary legislation approach tends to head
             | off that possibility because secondary legislation that is
             | genuinely unwieldy tends not to get out of committee. It
             | also _might_ be less vulnerable to lobbying, because the
             | secondary legislation committees are small standing
             | committees and handle more than one kind of secondary
             | legislation, so lobbying influence tends to stick out a bit
             | more.
        
               | giantg2 wrote:
               | "The primary/secondary legislation approach tends to head
               | off that possibility because secondary legislation that
               | is genuinely unwieldy tends not to get out of committee."
               | 
               | Cause and effect is off here. If the primary legislation
               | we already have makes it out of committee to be loaded
               | down after, then having secondary legislation would also
               | be loaded down after. Splitting into two stages isn't the
               | fix. Fixing the two party issues would still be
               | necessary.
        
               | exasperaited wrote:
               | > If the primary legislation we already have makes it out
               | of committee to be loaded down after
               | 
               | But it wouldn't be. I mean, you can't retrofit this onto
               | the US system now anyway, but the primary/secondary split
               | culturally leads to much, much smaller primary
               | legislation.
               | 
               | Our system still produces bloated things like the UK tax
               | code, but the general thrust of UK primary legislation is
               | that it is absolutely small enough to be read fully and
               | debated.
        
               | giantg2 wrote:
               | "but the primary/secondary split culturally leads to
               | much, much smaller primary legislation."
               | 
               | Maybe if starting from zero, but not with the established
               | culture.
        
         | KaiserPro wrote:
         | > There are tons of great instructional videos.
         | 
         | Yes, but its also unregulated and full of shit, Moreover its
         | designed to feed you more stuff that you like, regardless of
         | the consequences.
         | 
         | For adults, thats probably fine (I mean its not, but thats out
         | of scope) for kids, it'll fuck you up. Especially as there isnt
         | anything else to counteract it. (think back to when you had
         | that one mate who was into conspiracy theories. They'd get book
         | from the library, or some dark part of the web. But there was
         | always the rest of society to re-enforce how much its all
         | bollocks. That coesn't exist now, as there isn't a canonical
         | source, its all advertising clicks)
        
         | insane_dreamer wrote:
         | YT still has the great instructional videos, but teens today
         | (my son included) are mostly just scrolling the shorts just
         | like TikTok. YT is heavily orienting itself as social media.
        
         | jemmyw wrote:
         | They aren't banning viewing videos, they're banning kids having
         | an account I believe.
         | 
         | I'm sure their approach to enforcement will be something along
         | the lines of relying on the websites to sort it out and fining
         | them if they don't. The govt doesn't need to enforce the age
         | check themselves or even provide or suggest a mechanism.
         | 
         | I imagine any smaller players in this market will just stay
         | away from having an official presence in Australia.
        
           | giantg2 wrote:
           | This ban includes watching videos. The law says they must
           | take action to prevent underage persons from accessing their
           | services. This means they will likely have to require login
           | and age verify any accounts. The carve out in the article is
           | talking about teachers and parents being allowed to show the
           | content to the kids.
           | 
           | "The govt doesn't need to enforce the age check themselves or
           | even provide or suggest a mechanism."
           | 
           | I suppose it will be up to the courts to decide what is
           | reasonable as an age check. However, the government has said
           | that they don't want to include full ID checks, which is why
           | one would assume they would provide guidance on how to
           | comply.
        
       | standardUser wrote:
       | Maybe if the age limit was lower, and maybe if the law was less
       | strict. But the delta between this law and the society its being
       | imposed on is way too big to not cause serious unintended
       | consequences. The younger kids will find ways to achieve many of
       | the same interactions, only totally unregulated, and in doing so
       | will be forced to create distance between themselves and 'adult'
       | society.
        
       | ElCapitanMarkla wrote:
       | I don't really understand why Youtube won't let me create a
       | profile, on my paid family account that I'm paying $29 NZD a
       | month for, which lets me whitelist channels.
       | 
       | I'm happy for my kids to have free access to certain channels on
       | youtube, but the mind numbing shorts, and shit they find on
       | random channels just does my head in. And it seems to be getting
       | worse, I'm not sure if its that they are getting older and able
       | to search for more content or if the content is just getting
       | worse, maybe both, but I'm probably just going to cancel the sub
       | so they at least have to put up with terrible ads if they try to
       | access it.
        
         | Ancalagon wrote:
         | Ads as effective parental controls is wild, hilarious, and
         | somewhat dystopian to me.
        
         | ACow_Adonis wrote:
         | Presumably for the same reason Google doesn't let you block or
         | filter shit sites.
         | 
         | If you genuinely let user's preferences be taken into account,
         | it's incredibly hard to make money from ads if the user's true
         | preferences are not to be shown them.
         | 
         | The entire point of ads is to manipulate and change user
         | preferences and behaviours.
         | 
         | So any preferences or customisation has to be minimal enough
         | that their use can only partially implement user preferences.
         | White listing is a step too far against the purpose of YouTube.
         | 
         | Thus Google will always be biased to not letting you implement
         | full customisability and user control.
        
           | glaucon wrote:
           | Agreed but ElCapitanMarkla is paying for an ad free service
           | so at that point (as far as I can see) there shouldn't be any
           | reason they can't have what they suggest.
        
             | ACow_Adonis wrote:
             | Well, there's additional powerful reasons for that:
             | 
             | 1) you would be starting a culture and mechanism inside
             | your own company that plugs into your main money generating
             | platform who's entire purpose is to recognise and block the
             | disutility of your primary revenue stream. In modern
             | corporate culture that would be a huge no no. It also puts
             | that thought out into the mainstream. You do not say your
             | product is shit or harmful (especially with regulators
             | looking at you)
             | 
             | 2) it blocks or creates barriers to future expansion
             | options to place or extend your ecosystem into the paid
             | tier.
             | 
             | 3) while explicit ads might be filtered (for now) it also
             | interferes with and has implications for the rest of your
             | non-explicit ad ecosystem (prediction, nudging,
             | recommendations, subscribers, deals and influencers)
        
           | kingnothing wrote:
           | Try Kagi. You can filter out the shit sites. It's great!
        
         | sharperguy wrote:
         | I haven't tried it myself yet, but I self host my own
         | Jellyfin(1) instance, and I've had it recommended to combine it
         | with pinchflat(2), which will auto download and label entire
         | youtube channels, as they publish new videos. So then you could
         | use it to archive and provide access to the channels you want
         | without worrying about the recommendations and other channels.
         | 
         | 1. https://jellyfin.org/
         | 
         | 2. https://github.com/kieraneglin/pinchflat
        
         | modeless wrote:
         | YouTube kids has a feature to only show whitelisted channels
         | and videos. It's been there a few years now. You can share
         | videos to your kids directly from the YouTube app.
        
           | viraptor wrote:
           | But that also opens all the yt kids content, doesn't it? At
           | least I couldn't find any way to whitelist within the kids
           | app too. And there's just WAY too much brainrot crap in it to
           | allow open access for my kid.
        
         | vineyardmike wrote:
         | > I don't really understand why Youtube won't let me create a
         | profile, on my paid family account that I'm paying $29 NZD a
         | month for, which lets me whitelist channels
         | 
         | The answer is to this question is always: it is too niche a
         | product feature for a giant corporation to prioritize. This
         | product would require constant work to keep in sync as UIs and
         | features change. It would be one more feature to regression
         | test against an ever growing list changes, and an ever growing
         | list of client apps that need to work across an endless list of
         | phones, computers, tvs, etc.
         | 
         | This is why it is important that society normalize third party
         | clients to public web services. We should be allowed to create
         | and use whatever UI we want for the public endpoints that are
         | exposed.
         | 
         | PS: this particular feature exists though.
         | 
         | https://support.google.com/youtubekids/answer/6172308?hl=en&...
        
           | ndriscoll wrote:
           | Your second paragraph is kind of funny as a solution to your
           | first, but was nonetheless what I was going to suggest: since
           | it would require too much work for a multi-trillion dollar
           | company to be cable of building, you can instead rely on
           | hobbyists and use yt-dlp and jellyfin to make your own
           | whitelisted youtube.
           | 
           | The option (or at least documentation) does not seem to be
           | there for computers. Is it only on mobile devices?
        
           | PoignardAzur wrote:
           | The PS kind of undermines the rest of your point.
        
           | frereubu wrote:
           | That feature isn't what I think the parent comment is asking
           | for. What you've linked to is specifically YouTube Kids, and
           | it's groups of channels whitelisted by the YouTube team. What
           | I think the parent comment is asking for, and I want too, is
           | full availability of all YouTube channels, but the ability to
           | block everything except whitelisted channels. I agree, it's
           | too niche a product. But I often think that people whose
           | response to complaints about kids' access to inappropriate
           | content is "you need to parent your kids" is _fine, but I
           | need the tools to do that!_ A tool like this would be a
           | godsend.
        
           | bamboozled wrote:
           | Of course if it made a bunch of money it would be a top
           | priority though.
        
         | upboundspiral wrote:
         | For windows / linux I've found the freetube app to provide a
         | lot of sane controls. I can block channels as needed, block
         | shorts, hide profile pictures of commenters, and a lot of other
         | quality of life things. You can even set a password for the
         | settings as needed. Otherwise in the browser (firefox) I've
         | been somewhat succesful in blocking youtube shorts with ublock
         | origin filter rules: www.youtube.com##ytd-rich-section-
         | renderer.ytd-rich-grid-renderer.style-scope:nth-of-type(1)
         | www.youtube.com##ytd-rich-section-renderer.ytd-rich-grid-
         | renderer.style-scope:nth-of-type(2) www.youtube.com##ytd-rich-
         | section-renderer.ytd-rich-grid-renderer.style-scope:nth-of-
         | type(4) www.youtube.com##ytd-guide-entry-renderer.ytd-guide-
         | section-renderer.style-scope:nth-of-type(2)
        
         | sandworm101 wrote:
         | Yup. Id pay money to lock down the 24/7 Bluey youtube channel
         | for the kids... at least until the next trend comes along.
         | 
         | https://www.youtube.com/live/cN4EPsfBnq0?feature=shared
        
       | jackdawipper wrote:
       | testing ground for whats coming out of Europe.
       | 
       | the most annoying part of all of this is that the people voted
       | for it by voting Labor again. we are fkd.
        
         | pfych wrote:
         | This law was popular with the Liberal & Greens parties sadly -
         | was likely regardless of who won the election.
        
           | scubadude wrote:
           | It is absolutely not supported by the Greens [1].
           | 
           | "The Greens have also called for:                   A ban on
           | the targeting, harvesting and selling of young people's data
           | A Digital Duty of Care on tech platforms              EU-
           | style guardrails to limit the toxicity of algorithms and
           | extreme content              The ability for users to turn
           | down and opt-out of unwanted content              The full
           | release of the Online Safety Act review.
           | Investment in education for young people and their families
           | to help develop digital literacy and online safety skills,
           | and equip them with the tools and resources they need for
           | positive and responsible online use.
           | 
           | " [2]
           | 
           | [1] https://greens.org.au/news/media-release/greens-condemn-
           | pass...
           | 
           | [2] https://greens.org.au/news/media-release/blunt-social-
           | media-...
        
       | t0lo wrote:
       | Adding some context which is sorely missing:
       | 
       | Our government intends to spruik this at the UN and get other
       | countries on board.
       | 
       | Our government has said there will always be a non id method
       | 
       | Youtube will still be accessible it is just the account
       | making/usership which will be banned
       | 
       | Posting my threaded comment higher up:
       | 
       | I'm an australian who completed the esafety survey which helped
       | guide this policy. I pushed for anonymous temporary age
       | verification tokens generated through a government app.
       | 
       | Social media is undermining the fabric of our societies and
       | destroying a whole generations emotional development and
       | institutionalising a culture of infectious insecurity. I support
       | this- in part because I know those who want to get around enough
       | or be private will always find a way, but it has a positive,
       | reality affirming effect on the public.
       | 
       | Watch the press conference from our PM and comms minister from
       | yesterday to make up your mind on if this is coming from a place
       | of compassion or control. They have said repeatedly they will
       | always ensure a non id method is ensured. I know there are flaws
       | in that though. https://youtu.be/SCSMQUmrh38?feature=shared
       | 
       | It's interesting to see that the press conference felt so
       | uniquely grounded in reality and authentically emotional- maybe
       | that's because they are directly challenging the delegitimising
       | impermanent reality of social media-
       | 
       | Yes they did bring families with children who had passed from
       | social media abuse on stage but it felt genuine. Doesn't mean
       | your privacy concerns aren't real but they don't always trump
       | protecting a childs emotional development.
        
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