[HN Gopher] State capacity and eight parking spaces
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       State capacity and eight parking spaces
        
       Author : aaronbrethorst
       Score  : 53 points
       Date   : 2025-07-30 06:37 UTC (16 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.brethorsting.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.brethorsting.com)
        
       | voidUpdate wrote:
       | There's a lot in my city that had construction going on for about
       | a month, they barely got anywhere, and now it's been deserted for
       | a while. It's meant to be a new block of flats, and I know that
       | takes a while, but every time I pass it, I think about the
       | stories of Chinese workers erecting a 57 storey building in 19
       | days (Though I don't know if that includes wiring, plumbing, etc,
       | or if it's just the concrete shell)
        
       | bjackman wrote:
       | An idle observation about bureaucracy:
       | 
       | In my big tech job we have a pretty small (by public sector
       | standards) red-tape burden but it does exist. It does slow work
       | down and it does increase the activation energy such that some
       | small projects that might otherwise happen simply don't.
       | 
       | Sometimes, I choose to semi-transparrently ignore it. I see this
       | happen at the institutional level too. So there's a spectrum of
       | tactical non-compliance, extending roughly between:
       | 
       | - I do not submit my conference material to PR/legal, I just go
       | to the conference and present without approval. I admit this to
       | my management chain, they are mildly uncomfortable about it but
       | ultimately don't care enough to make my life difficult.
       | 
       | To:
       | 
       | - We have a policy stating that all open source code in our stack
       | must be fully reviewed internally. I think this does genuinely
       | happen for lots of libraries but for the Linux kernel we are in
       | flagrant violation and nobody cares.
       | 
       | I assume there are very good reasons this is not something you
       | can just do in the public sector. I assume there's also a factor
       | in there about how there is no serious constituency in my company
       | that genuinely cares about the PR/legal approvals, whereas the
       | regulations blocking parking spaces are probably ultimately due
       | to someone who really does care about whatever they are supposed
       | to represent.
       | 
       | And yeah I guess I do like the rule of law, I prefer that our
       | governments don't break it. But maybe there's something there.
        
       | roenxi wrote:
       | It is a weird subject - on the one hand, I don't think anyone
       | would argue that the story in the article makes sense from a
       | process perspective. But simultaneously the people who are of the
       | opinion that the regulations burdens should be lightened seem to
       | be in a political minority that can't be much bigger than around
       | 30% of the population. Raising the question - what do the
       | majority of voters actual think about this sort of regulation?
       | Maybe they are just of the opinion that case studies like this
       | aren't representative of reality.
       | 
       | I'd incline to believe that if the US body politic set out to
       | solve this one they'd end up in a position of introducing a
       | loophole for charging projects (ie, increasing bureaucracy) and
       | reducing the regulatory burden wouldn't be an option.
        
         | pikminguy wrote:
         | I think most people have an opinion similar to NIMBYism.
         | Everyone agrees there are too many regulations but no one
         | agrees which ones are the extra. Every rule is someone's
         | highest concern.
         | 
         | That's why part of the argument in Abundance is that current
         | processes give too many people too much veto power. When every
         | issue is someone's pet issue nothing can ever get done.
        
       | sokoloff wrote:
       | > And yet here we are, three years later, staring at an empty
       | lot.
       | 
       | By way of comparison, Project Gemini was conceived in 1961 and
       | Gemini 3 successfully flew in April of 1964.
       | 
       | But I'm sure that 8 EV parking spots is a more complex endeavor
       | somehow...
        
         | bigDinosaur wrote:
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_triviality has been noted
         | for a long time. Unfortunately much bigger projects are now
         | affected in ways that perhaps they would not have been in the
         | past.
        
       | readthenotes1 wrote:
       | "It's about rebuilding government's capacity to accomplish its
       | basic functions efficiently and effectively."
       | 
       | That is a fairly hopeless aspiration as systems inevitably evolve
       | to perpetuate themselves, not the services they were created to
       | provide.
        
         | praestigiare wrote:
         | I think that framing this as hopeless, and perpetuating the
         | idea the government cannot operate efficiently, is a part of
         | the problem. If a system is created to provide a service, it
         | makes sense that said system would consider its existence
         | instrumental to meeting that goal. This could be a positive
         | motivator to provide the service efficiently and effectively.
         | There are many reasons that it often does not work out that
         | way, but one is public perception that government is supposed
         | to be slow and inefficient.
        
       | Peteragain wrote:
       | As a leftie - admittedly one who thinks - I thought the article
       | was actually quite positive and didn't bring politics into it:
       | "What would that look like for something as simple as EV charging
       | stations? Standardized approval processes. Pre-approved vendor
       | lists. Streamlined permitting for routine infrastructure. Clear
       | timelines with accountability mechanisms." A clear and sensible
       | suggestion. Cool.
        
         | FinnLobsien wrote:
         | I think state capacity shouldn't be a left-right issue. Whether
         | you want oil rigs or public parks to be built, everyone can
         | agree that once the decision is made, it should be built
         | swiftly and well.
         | 
         | And the public should be able to have an expectation that when
         | the government says they'll do something, they're capable of
         | doing so within a reasonable budget and timeframe.
        
         | HEmanZ wrote:
         | In my neck of the woods, you'd be called a capitalist
         | bootlicker for this point of view by many lefties. I get called
         | that for basically any suggestion besides complete communist
         | revolution.
         | 
         | I can always tell who on the left is ideologically poisoned by
         | how vehemently they hate anything related to the idea that
         | current government processes and regulations could improve or
         | that government regulations can go (sometimes very) wrong. As
         | if somehow that admission is the same as wanting anarcho-
         | libertarianism.
        
           | kayodelycaon wrote:
           | As a "liberal" (American definition), you're in a far
           | different bubble than I am.
        
             | shazbotter wrote:
             | I'm an American, in my circles "liberal" is almost a curse
             | word. It's what we tend to call people who support
             | corporate power, profit motivation, and social progress as
             | long as it doesn't inconvenience them personally.
             | 
             | We broadly use "leftist" to refer to ourselves, whether
             | that's democratic socialists, anarchists, communists,
             | syndicalists, unionists, etc. Philosophically, these folks
             | are fundamentally pushing for wellbeing of all, social
             | motivation, and social progress even if it inconveniences
             | me personally.
             | 
             | I don't think it's helpful to refer to these differences in
             | ideology as bubbles, though. I think there's a very real
             | philosophical difference between liberals and leftists, and
             | has been for generations. 60 years ago Phil Ochs sang "Love
             | me I'm a liberal", and it wasn't a new idea back then.
             | Liberals and leftists hold incompatible worldviews. Just
             | like liberals and conservatives do. I think deploying the
             | term "bubble" for such broad groups is probably more
             | reductive than helpful.
        
           | shazbotter wrote:
           | I'm a lefty, but off the anarchist stripe, if you start
           | calling for communist revolution I'll be there to oppose you.
           | ;)
           | 
           | But more seriously, I think we could do a lot more with local
           | governments and our capacity to build things. Part of that is
           | regulatory, but a I think a majority of the problem is we
           | focus too much on getting a thing built and not enough on
           | continuing to run it. Whether it's housing, transportation,
           | bridges, whatever, everyone is excited for opening day then
           | we immediately start paring back funding and support for it.
           | Which results in loss of quality, which makes people go "why
           | are we even paying for this", which leads to loss of funding.
        
           | bee_rider wrote:
           | Where is your neck of the woods? (Vaguely, of course, nobody
           | wants to reveal where they live on the internet). I spent a
           | lot of time in New England college towns (the region is
           | stereotyped as very blue, and so are college students), but
           | didn't much like that. The activists I knew were... not so
           | interested in infighting that they'd turn away anyone who was
           | willing to canvass.
           | 
           | Maybe it is a West Coast thing though, stuff seems more
           | acrimonious out there.
        
             | bee_rider wrote:
             | There's a typo in my post but the edit window has closed:
             | 
             | > I spent a lot of time in New England college towns [...],
             | but didn't much like that.
             | 
             | I meant
             | 
             | > I spent a lot of time in New England college towns [...],
             | but didn't _see_ much like that.
             | 
             | With that being liberal vs leftist infighting. I loved
             | living in New England college towns, they are great. You
             | can walk to a cafe or a bar, it's like being in another
             | country.
        
       | ajd555 wrote:
       | Great read, and a great example of America's failure to complete
       | infrastructure projects. I agree with the proposed solutions, and
       | I do hope that some local governments start enacting some of
       | them. I'm reminded of the staggering cost for a new railroad in
       | the US, that can go up to $4M/mile near urban environments[0]. We
       | need more articles like these and some political courage to get
       | building again!
       | 
       | [0] https://www.freightwaves.com/news/commentary-do-you-want-
       | to-...
        
       | pu_pe wrote:
       | The legitimate criticism I read against "Abundance" is that for
       | the most part regulations and due process emerged to protect
       | public interests from private capture. In the article the author
       | says we should use "pre-approved vendor lists" or "streamlined
       | approvals" and that sounds great in principle, but could also
       | easily be exploited.
       | 
       | One of the reasons American and German cities are made for cars
       | is because of the influence of their car industry. However, this
       | also pushed out investment in competing alternatives like public
       | transport infrastructure.
        
         | FinnLobsien wrote:
         | > In the article the author says we should use "pre-approved
         | vendor lists" or "streamlined approvals" and that sounds great
         | in principle, but could also easily be exploited.
         | 
         | Every kind of regulation can be exploited and is currently
         | being exploited. GDPR led to law firms squeezing money out of
         | neighborhood bars with cease and desists. Government grants
         | spawn companies doing the exact minimum to keep getting grants
         | without building real businesses.
         | 
         | I totally agree that lobbyism is a massive problem (and often
         | the reason we get such complex regulation--they shut out the
         | little players). But any proposed solution will have to be some
         | type of risk.
        
         | Analemma_ wrote:
         | Has our system done a good job at preventing private capture?
         | Are we better at preventing private capture than countries
         | which build things more easily?
        
           | ryathal wrote:
           | Our system is great at preventing private capture at the
           | small scale and great at ensuring it on the large scale
        
         | aqme28 wrote:
         | > for the most part regulations and due process emerged to
         | protect public interests from private capture.
         | 
         | In truth I think it's a mix of this, and the opposite--where
         | private interests have already captured the public good.
        
         | HEmanZ wrote:
         | " that for the most part regulations and due process emerged to
         | protect public interests from private capture"
         | 
         | I just flat out don't buy this. The majority of regulations I
         | see "abundance" type people arguing against were never aimed at
         | curtailing private capture. They are aimed at keeping
         | neihborhoods unchanged for generations, making sure everyone
         | up-and-down society gets veto power over any project regardless
         | of type or upside of it, and making sure arbitrary unrelated
         | "goods" are enforced with as much bureaucracy as possible
         | during development (the best example of this is trying to get
         | solar panels built and having to fight many years of
         | "environmental" review for something so desperately needed for
         | our environment).
        
         | derbOac wrote:
         | I have to admit this essay struck me as sort of strange. On the
         | one hand, the EV charging station seems like something fairly
         | straightforward, that should be approved and built fairly
         | quickly. On the other hand, it's just an EV charging station,
         | and without knowing anything more about it, I am just as
         | inclined to believe that this is some small pet project of
         | interest to the author, who no one else _really_ cares about,
         | and he 's invoking some grand criticism of government writ
         | large as a way of bringing urgency and grandeur his
         | idiosyncratic interest that doesn't really matter in the grand
         | scheme of things.
         | 
         | EV sales are in the middle of a nationwide decline, especially
         | for one of the major manufacturers. I doubt it has anything to
         | do with the 8-space parking lot in Seattle in particular. Add
         | to this stories about charging station compatibility, and I'm
         | not surprised there isn't a greater sense of urgency from the
         | city.
         | 
         | I have my pet projects I'd like to see finished as well, but I
         | don't blame my municipality for not prioritizing them. They
         | have a lot on their plate. It has nothing to do with capture or
         | overregulation, but priorities with constrained staff, budget,
         | and time. People change their minds and city priorities change
         | with popular sentiment.
         | 
         | In some ways, this is a good example of why some prudence is
         | warranted, and maybe you should get the other side of the
         | story. The essay neglects to mention that four of the eight
         | charging stations would be owned by Tesla for example --
         | something that if you're not opposed to, you might at least
         | admit is reasonable for the city to reevaluate -- and there is
         | apparently contaminated soil at least nearby the site.
         | 
         | I'm generally in favor of reregulation or deregulation, but I
         | generally feel like land use, environmental, and public space
         | or resources are something where there _should_ be a lot of
         | scrutiny and layers of approval. Once it 's gone, it's hard to
         | reclaim and expensive to clean up. I also feel like many
         | examples of complaints in this area and mention of things like
         | Abundance are just like this -- someone complains their
         | personal project of interest isn't done fast enough,
         | criticizing the government for being cumbersome and
         | overwrought, while neglecting to mention all the reasons why
         | people might not prioritize their pet project, or why their pet
         | project might reasonably be seen as requiring safeguards or
         | approval processes. The reason why the government is slow with
         | your pet project is because not everyone agrees with you, and
         | there is a commons issue involved.
         | 
         | Meanwhile, discussion about deregulation of things that
         | actually involve personal choice, with little or no public
         | commons issues involved, like medical care, go by the wayside
         | and are never mentioned, or are even hyperregulated.
        
           | scythe wrote:
           | >In some ways, this is a good example of why some prudence is
           | warranted, and maybe you should get the other side of the
           | story. The essay neglects to mention that four of the eight
           | charging stations would be owned by Tesla for example --
           | something that if you're not opposed to, you might at least
           | admit is reasonable for the city to reevaluate -- and there
           | is apparently contaminated soil at least nearby the site.
           | 
           | No, I think the "other side of the story" here is laughably
           | weak. Four measly charging stations in the whole city of
           | Seattle owned by Tesla? That barely warrants a comment on
           | Hacker News, much less a town hall.
           | 
           | And "contaminated land"? How contaminated are we talking
           | about here? It's crippling to any hope of widespread
           | brownfield redevelopment that something so minimally invasive
           | could be shut down by nebulous, ill-defined contamination.
           | Perhaps we need a standard grading system for land
           | contamination instead of just lumping gasoline and arsenic in
           | the same category.
           | 
           | >I am just as inclined to believe that this is some small pet
           | project of interest to the author, who no one else really
           | cares about, and he's invoking some grand criticism of
           | government writ large as a way of bringing urgency and
           | grandeur his idiosyncratic interest that doesn't really
           | matter in the grand scheme of things.
           | 
           | I am inclined to think that this argument could be used to
           | shut down any case study used to critique the bureaucracy.
           | The idea that eight city-owned parking spaces are somehow
           | personally important to anyone is weird enough to demand at
           | least a little evidence.
        
             | derbOac wrote:
             | > That barely warrants a comment on Hacker News, much less
             | a town hall.
             | 
             | I think that's maybe what I'm saying? Or the other side of
             | the coin? I personally don't think there's some compelling
             | harm being done by the government in this case.
             | 
             | Maybe some general discussion of neglect in the use of the
             | land might be more compelling to me, but I'm not sure that
             | delays in allocating it to charging stations in particular
             | seems like a grand failure of governance. The soil is
             | contaminated and the government wants to clean it up while
             | they're tearing it up? Next to a planned park apparently?
             | And this is causing harm by... holding up EV charging
             | stations? Not a light rail hub, or walking trails
             | connecting neighborhoods, or cycling infrastructure, or a
             | clinic, but EV charging stations?
             | 
             | > I am inclined to think that this argument could be used
             | to shut down any case study used to critique the
             | bureaucracy.
             | 
             | I guess another way of phrasing my reaction is that I don't
             | find this particular example very compelling in critiquing
             | bureaucracy. Maybe more to my point, the fact that the
             | author presents it as urgent to me sort of ironically
             | underscores the problems with the argument they advance.
             | It's an urgent need to them, but maybe not to the public at
             | large?
             | 
             | It's also maybe worth pointing out the converse is true:
             | the argument in Abundance could be used to shut down any
             | case study used to support the government in being prudent
             | or thorough?
        
             | toast0 wrote:
             | > And "contaminated land"? How contaminated are we talking
             | about here? It's crippling to any hope of widespread
             | brownfield redevelopment that something so minimally
             | invasive could be shut down by nebulous, ill-defined
             | contamination. Perhaps we need a standard grading system
             | for land contamination instead of just lumping gasoline and
             | arsenic in the same category.
             | 
             | If the article is accurate, the cleanup was completed by
             | January 2024, and first phase of work started September
             | 2022. So who knows how long cleanup took, long enough to
             | mention, but less than 1.5 years. The city website about
             | the project [1] says the contamination was removed in 2022,
             | so maybe not very long at all. The site's former use was as
             | an electrical substation, so I'd expect soil contamination
             | from spilled transformer oil, and similar things; some
             | nasty stuff, but usually not a lot of it.
             | 
             | Sounds like the root cause of delays is availability of
             | appropriate chargers, and probably a lack of priority.
             | Also, 8 EV chargers doesn't sound like much, but if they're
             | level 3 chargers, that's a lot of power if 8 cars plug in
             | at the same time, which necessitates a bit of engineering
             | and oversight. If it were 8 level 2 ev chargers, that would
             | probably be a quick and easy install.
             | 
             | [1] https://www.seattle.gov/city-light/in-the-
             | community/current-...
        
         | gruez wrote:
         | >In the article the author says we should use "pre-approved
         | vendor lists" or "streamlined approvals" and that sounds great
         | in principle, but could also easily be exploited.
         | 
         | As patio11 would say, "The optimal amount of fraud is non-
         | zero". Fraud is bad, but if fighting fraud involves so much red
         | tape that it costs more than whatever petty corruption could
         | ever cost, it's bad.
         | 
         | [1] https://www.bitsaboutmoney.com/archive/optimal-amount-of-
         | fra...
        
         | ryandrake wrote:
         | Regulations and process are just scar tissue from mistakes of
         | the past. Excessive process indicates abundant past mistakes.
         | 
         | If we want to go back to taking risks and making mistakes, by
         | all means, let's cut red tape and get rid of process. But, we
         | should do it knowing the tradeoff we're making. I think some
         | people here just think "regulation/process = bad" and "getting
         | rid of regulation/process = good" but it's more complex than
         | that.
        
           | kelseyfrog wrote:
           | Every regulation is a Chesterton's Fence.
           | 
           | Maybe there's a different regulation that fences in the past
           | mistake. Maybe it's historically contingent and irrelevant.
           | Most laws exist without a direct reference to their relevancy
           | and it takes legal archeology to uncover the telos of each
           | clause.
        
         | like_any_other wrote:
         | > "pre-approved vendor lists" or "streamlined approvals" and
         | that sounds great in principle, but could also easily be
         | exploited.
         | 
         | Nearly any kind of public spending can be exploited, including
         | auctions. There are countless cases where the cheapest vendor
         | that satisfies the written criteria is chosen, only to end up
         | with delays, cost overruns that far outweigh the initial
         | savings, or equipment that malfunctions and breaks.
         | 
         | I know somebody who was in charge of writing these auctions for
         | their government department. They picked a vendor, and then
         | worked backwards to write the requirements so that only that
         | vendor would satisfy them. Not because of corruption, but
         | because they knew that vendor's equipment was quality.
         | 
         | There was another case, in a different department, where this
         | was not done - the auction was written naively (and honestly),
         | and the cheapest vendor chosen. The equipment failed within
         | months, putting people at risk, and a different vendor had to
         | be quickly chosen.
         | 
         | It's better to just put some conflict-of-interest guards in
         | place, and then trust the judgment of whoever needs those
         | goods, than to try to eliminate corruption through bureaucratic
         | procedures. Because it can't be eliminated with bureaucracy -
         | but efficiency can, and will be.
        
       | FinnLobsien wrote:
       | Good article. There are 3 observations I'd add:
       | 
       | -I think we underestimate the impact of the cultural assumption
       | that anything the government does will be 10x as expensive, take
       | 10x as long and then not work properly, with nobody ever being
       | held accountable, but lots of people having been paid along the
       | way.
       | 
       | Of all the ambitious, smart people I know, a single one has said
       | he even believes it's a good thing to work for the government.
       | And he doesn't do it because he thinks the experience would be so
       | miserable compared to working in tech.
       | 
       | -Most people don't seem to understand that regulations don't just
       | add up, but compound.
       | 
       | It's not that each individual, well-intentioned regulation is bad
       | (though some are), it's that many regulations intersect and
       | create edge cases.
       | 
       | And when there's regulation/paperwork at every point, it starts
       | to look like an insurmountable barrier. This is true with
       | entrepreneurship in Europe. People aren't against a specific
       | regulation, the perception is that whatever you want to do,
       | you'll have to ask permission from someone, somewhere, fill out 5
       | pages of paperwork and wait 3 months before you get to talk to a
       | notary and finally change your business' mailing address (real
       | example from Germany)
       | 
       | -It's hard to make a rational case for this because humans are
       | wired to weigh danger more heavily than upside.
       | 
       | We don't have counterfactuals (the cafe that didn't open because
       | of zoning laws, the parks that were never built, etc.)
       | 
       | Even when politicians admit this problem, they then proclaim they
       | want more housing, innovation or whatever, but getting rid of a
       | regulation has some amount of risk.
       | 
       | So then they try to find the "free lunch": a solution that has
       | none of the downside, but all of the upside.
       | 
       | That free lunch doesn't exist and the resulting solution only
       | gets even more complex.
        
         | dfxm12 wrote:
         | _And he doesn 't do it because he thinks the experience would
         | be so miserable compared to working in tech_
         | 
         | I've worked for the US federal government, big tech and another
         | big corp. I would say my experience with the government (and
         | the non tech big corp) was more positive than big tech, as my
         | team was more focused on working/growing together rather than
         | trying to individually outshine everyone else. I feel like we
         | were working towards practical goals that has clear benefits
         | for our customers rather than trying to hit seemingly arbitrary
         | kpi's.
         | 
         | Working for the government I also feel like my work/life
         | balance was most respected as well. YMMV though. Admittedly,
         | N=1 here.
        
           | FinnLobsien wrote:
           | Interesting! I guess government doesn't equal government and
           | highly depends on where you work and what you work on. The
           | same way being a product manager at Google vs. a founding
           | engineer at a startup vs. a research scientist at OpenAI are
           | different, though they all "work in tech".
           | 
           | Plus, I'm in Europe and my friend runs his own startup, so
           | very different environment.
        
           | red-iron-pine wrote:
           | Having worked for both FedGov and Contractors directly, plus
           | several F500s, the Gubmnt was wayyyyy more focused on loss,
           | waste, and long-term planning.
           | 
           | the levels of waste and BS and general suck at some large
           | mining + O&G companies was astounding, on top of being
           | absolutely brutal, miserable places to work.
        
           | ryathal wrote:
           | That's close enough to my experience in state government. The
           | biggest problem was generally a lack of widespread
           | competence. There was plenty of red tape, but there were also
           | lots of people whose job was to deal with that tape.
        
       | WBrentWilliams wrote:
       | Writ-large, isn't what the article is referring to the plot of
       | Sheng kiru(Ikiru, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikiru)? My
       | suspicion is that the solution to lack of ability for government
       | to enable building in the US will be the same, writ-large, as in
       | the movie. That is, it will happen, but (I'll stop here, least I
       | spoil the movie for you).
        
       | djoldman wrote:
       | I find it quite interesting that US private industry can be
       | incredibly effective relative to non-US private industry, but the
       | opposite seems to be more the case when it comes to government
       | projects.
        
         | dweinus wrote:
         | The idea of US private efficiency is overblown. It doesn't take
         | long working in a large US company to see massive delays, red
         | tape, duplicate work, self-sabotage, or favoritism. Even when
         | it is fast, that doesn't equate to efficient. It's not uncommon
         | to see 8 figures put into throw-away work.
        
         | kayodelycaon wrote:
         | I've seen massive waste in private business. Incredible amounts
         | of it. Somehow these companies don't collapse.
         | 
         | Sometimes I think the only real difference is it's easier to
         | sell stuff to upper management than it is to a congresscritter.
         | Easier for one person to waste a lot of money than it is for a
         | committee to do it.
        
           | gruez wrote:
           | >Sometimes I think the only real difference is it's easier to
           | sell stuff to upper management than it is to a
           | congresscritter. Easier for one person to waste a lot of
           | money than it is for a committee to do it.
           | 
           | How does this square with congressional pork like the SLS[1],
           | or buying tanks that the army doesn't want[2]?
           | 
           | [1]
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Launch_System#Criticism
           | 
           | [2] https://www.military.com/daily-news/2014/12/18/congress-
           | agai...
        
       | xnx wrote:
       | Not a great example since building and maintaining an EV station
       | is not something Seattle should be doing.
       | 
       | Cities have no experience building or maintaining charging
       | stations.
        
         | swiftcoder wrote:
         | Regardless of whether the City of Seattle should be in the EV
         | charging station business, once they decide to, they damn well
         | ought to be in the Getting Things Done(tm) business
        
         | shazbotter wrote:
         | The city runs a municipal electrical utility (Seattle City
         | Light), so building and maintaining electrical infrastructure
         | is absolutely something they both have experience with and
         | should be doing.
        
           | xnx wrote:
           | Why EV parking spaces and not a laundromat (which uses
           | electricity)?
        
             | shazbotter wrote:
             | Because an EV lot is delivering power to a point (the
             | charger) and parking is a business the city regularly
             | operates. There's nothing novel to the city there.
             | 
             | A laundromat does take power routing, and there would be
             | sufficient expertise to do that part, but operating a
             | laundromat is a business the city has never done before. It
             | requires knowledge of machines, customer traffic, laundry
             | care, and a bunch of other stuff the city hasn't done.
        
       | shazbotter wrote:
       | The article highlights a failure, which is good, but gives a very
       | surface level review of what failed here. Some gestures are made
       | at environmental review but it's not clear that the root cause
       | here was regulation. If the project needed three redesigns, why?
       | Maybe electrical capacity for 8 high capacity outlets on _that_
       | site was tricky. Maybe the transformers and their cooling was
       | louder than that site could accommodate. Maybe this was a low
       | priority project and other things kept stealing time from it.
       | 
       | I can think of many reasons why a project like this stalls. And
       | too be clear, regulation could absolutely be one of them. The
       | article just doesn't support that as a root cause beyond
       | conjecture.
        
         | mindslight wrote:
         | Spot on. I read the article wondering when they were going to
         | describe what specifically failed or got stuck. Instead it's
         | just a vague implication that such redesigns must have been
         | unnecessary, but never saying exactly why such redesigns were
         | being done. What/who is the project currently waiting on? It's
         | never specified.
         | 
         | In light of that, maybe a better description of the problem is
         | more the absence of responsibility/accountability (for both the
         | proponent and the reviewers, although it's not indicated which
         | is dropping the ball here) rather than the
         | processes/regulations themselves.
        
           | dpkirchner wrote:
           | I think the article was clear that this was a series of
           | delays at all steps -- no one issue (eg redesigns) that
           | prevented progress. I would like to have seen more details,
           | however it's possible they just don't exist in any one place.
        
             | mindslight wrote:
             | That is the opposite of being clear - there is no analysis
             | of what was responsible for each delay, leaving the reader
             | to fill in their own imagined idea. And we can imagine many
             | different scenarios. Maybe permits were stonewalled and
             | denied for petty reasons. Maybe the muni electric company
             | assigned the project as a low priority to an intern who
             | kept missing key requirements. Maybe the better charging
             | station vendor had too long of a lead time, and the muni
             | electric was trying to ram it through with a different
             | vendor that is more aggressively trying to privatize the
             | commons. Each of these things are going to have wildly
             | different fixes.
        
       | M95D wrote:
       | In my country, obtaining a permit to build something is so very
       | complicated and long that most people prefer to just build and
       | then pay the fine for building without permits.
        
       | advisedwang wrote:
       | The article pretends that the EV charging project failed because
       | of bureaucratic hurdles, but then says 'But they had to switch
       | charging station vendors due to supply chain issues, and the new
       | equipment had "a very long lead time."' That has nothing to do
       | with bureaucracy, and none of the abundance stuff comes anywhere
       | near addressing it.
        
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