[HN Gopher] Brazil central bank to launch Pix installment featur...
___________________________________________________________________
Brazil central bank to launch Pix installment feature in September
Author : CXSHNGCB
Score : 122 points
Date : 2025-07-21 17:01 UTC (4 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.reuters.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.reuters.com)
| ojosilva wrote:
| This is hands down one of the best instant payment platforms at
| the moment. Only India's UPI can match it in features, and China
| and Thailand in adoption. Most Western countries have had a
| (somewhat timid) taste of instant payments, but most don't know
| what it means to just drop credit and debit cards and cash
| altogether for a system that is not just universally adopted
| (from apps to flea markets to online payments and subscriptions),
| but preferred by merchants and consumers alike.
|
| Obviously credit cards give you credit, if that's what you
| want/need, maybe a postponement until your monthly statement is
| closed, or chargebacks and maybe insurance, but CCs should be an
| exception, not the norm they are now, with a bunch of embedded
| costs we all pay for, one way or another.
| rcruzeiro wrote:
| Systems like these are very common in Europe. Here in Norway,
| you can pay for almost anything, anywhere with Vipps. It works
| very similarly to Brazilian Pix. Another system I have used in
| the past is the Portuguese MBWay which although similar to Pix
| and Vipps, doesn't seem to be as widely adopted as the former.
| closewith wrote:
| Vipps and MBPay are a pale shadow of Pix. No aliases, no
| mandatory participation, much lower merchant fees, and
| instant settlement not dependent on the merchant bank.
| Tmpod wrote:
| MBWAY has card aliases, I believe it had been a thing since
| the 90s (previously know as MBNET).
| em500 wrote:
| The problem is that most European schemes are country
| specific. As soon as you cross the border even to another
| European country, your options are pretty much cash or
| Visa/MasterCard.
| riffraff wrote:
| Yeah, the ECB just published[0] the latest report on the
| digital euro which is supposed to solve this across the
| eurozone and seems potentially quite cool, but it'll be
| years before it's reality.
|
| 0: https://www.ecb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/progress/htm
| l/ec...
| BurningFrog wrote:
| There is nothing for the Euro zone?
| usrnm wrote:
| Same as pix then?
| guhcampos wrote:
| We also have the same problem: technically, PIX is only
| inside our borders. The thing is our borders are huge!
|
| In practice, people have started to accept it in Portugal,
| Argentina, Uruguai and some other places where people tend
| to have accounts both in their countries of residence and
| Brazil.
| ivan_gammel wrote:
| Russia is bigger and has its own system of instant
| payments SBP, which has now completely substituted Visa,
| Mastercard etc and has some presence in 8-9 other
| countries (depending on whether you count Abkhazia as a
| country or not) with 50 foreign banks supporting it.
| mrisoli wrote:
| Interestingly, I've spotted a few places in Portugal already
| accepting Pix as a form of payment, catering to a large
| demographic of Brazilian immigrants and tourists.
| renrutal wrote:
| There is no PIX in Portugal, or places other than Brazil.
|
| What they have there is a Brazilian person receiving
| payments from another Brazilian person, only through
| Brazilian accounts, all happening remotely in Brazil(at
| least for now)
| marcosdumay wrote:
| What they have is a payment gateway that integrates the
| Portuguese and Brazilian payments by doing a transfer at
| each side.
|
| It's the same thing as buying stuff from China with PIX,
| but the gateway is more hidden from the Portuguese
| accounts.
| jowea wrote:
| There has been some talk of actually internationalising
| Pix, but from what I understand, those uses that exist now
| outside of Brazil are a kludge for the benefit of Brazilian
| tourists.
| Tmpod wrote:
| I don't think I know a single person that doesn't have MBWAY,
| but I'm younger than 30, so that might have something to do
| with it.
|
| Even then, everywhere you go, unless they're really small or
| old places that still don't accept anything other than cash,
| you can pay with MBWAY, through a QR code or NFC. All POS
| terminals support that nowadays. You can even add an email
| address and VAT number and newer terminals automatically skip
| printing the customer receipt, send it to your email and give
| the VAT number to the merchant (not entirely sure how that
| last one works, but it's there).
| xcf_seetan wrote:
| Now you know! :)
| ivape wrote:
| Thanks, just learned about this in the states:
|
| https://www.federalreserve.gov/paymentsystems/fednow_about.h...
| c0wb0yc0d3r wrote:
| It's a shame that it isn't used.
| ivape wrote:
| I just learned about this. Looks like this system is only
| available to banks, and they would have no incentive to
| break the old system by being quick to implement this. If
| the Federal Reserve provided this directly to individuals,
| then we'd have a lot of new payment apps that bypasses the
| middle network (that would be a paradigm shift).
| jowea wrote:
| This was a whole controversy in Brazil. There was a
| conspiracy theory that the banks wanted to sabotage the
| Pix rollout because they would lose out on the fees for
| using the old transaction systems. In any case, there is
| a lot more money circulating through the banks now.
| brainwad wrote:
| Credit cards give me cashback, worldwide acceptance and peace
| of mind. The country I live in, Switzerland, has a very widely
| accepted QR-based payment system... but credit cards (in mobile
| wallets) are more convenient, safer, faster. The only time I
| use the QR codes is when a merchant doesn't have a card
| terminal.
| closewith wrote:
| > Credit cards give me cashback, worldwide acceptance and
| peace of mind.
|
| That's because you (and everyone else in Switzerland, even
| those paying cash) is eating a 2-3% merchant fee markup. In
| the civilised world like the EU, where credit card
| interchange fees are capped of 0.3%, those cashback benefits
| (which is, again, your money you've just paid) don't exist.
|
| > worldwide acceptance
|
| For now, at a huge economy-wide cost. That skimmed 2-3% is
| what Trump is trying to protect.
|
| > peace of mind
|
| That's also country-dependent. In many countries, credit card
| transactions have no additional protections and chargebacks
| aren't the magic bullet they are in some.
|
| > more convenient, safer, faster.
|
| Pix is more convenient, safer (much, much safer and lower
| risk of fraud), and faster than credit cards. Cheaper too.
| brainwad wrote:
| Switzerland has interchange fees of 0.4% for consumer
| credit cards (by contactless, only slightly higher by
| chip+pin): https://www.visaeurope.ch/content/dam/VCOM/regio
| nal/ve/unite..., https://www.mastercard.com/content/dam/pub
| lic/mastercardcom/.... And yet banks offer 0.33% cashback
| cards: https://certo-card.ch/one.
|
| And let's not forget that cash acceptance costs an order of
| magnitude more than this anyway; if anything businesses
| should charge surcharges for accepting cash, not the other
| way around, and given the social constraint of no
| surcharges, cashback is a fair mechanism to reward
| efficient payment methods.
| closewith wrote:
| > Switzerland has interchange fees of 0.4% for consumer
| credit cards
|
| Only since Wednesday of this week due to COMCO action, so
| no-one knows if cashback will persist, but it will be a
| lot less than .33%.
|
| > And let's not forget that cash acceptance costs an
| order of magnitude more than this anyway;
|
| In the EU, it's .5% for cash vs .3% for cards, but the
| situation falls back into favour for cash once fraud is
| accounted for.
| brainwad wrote:
| > Only since Wednesday of this week due to COMCO action
|
| That Visa fee table is dated July 2023?
| closewith wrote:
| Right, but prior to this week, the merchant account
| providers just raised scheme fees to compensate.
| henry700 wrote:
| The cashback you are given back is taken from a fraction of
| the fee levied on merchants by the Payment Processing company
| they use. The only thing holding this system together is the
| lobby (also funded by a part of the aforementioned fee on
| merchants) by the Payment Processing industry to uphold laws
| that prohibit more expensive payments for more expensive
| payment methods, and also the extensive marketing (funded by
| guess what). It's an extremely simple yet ingrained system,
| and the only way to topple it and stop paying hidden costs
| thinking you're getting an extremely good deal on cashback,
| is to peel back the curtains and realize it, and make most of
| the politically-active part of the country's population to do
| so too.
| ivape wrote:
| But, who do you get to call in a world like that? I think
| the West really likes customer service and security.
| henry700 wrote:
| Suspicious transactions are a legitimate use-case for
| payment processing. If you don't fully trust who you're
| buying from, the scam preventions, chargebacks, refunds
| etc. work fine. But buying lunch or small chocolates,
| cigarretes etc with credit cards is INSANE.
| miltava wrote:
| Why do you think PIX doesn't have customer service or
| security? It's regulated by the central bank but operated
| by private companies.
| brainwad wrote:
| Credit card isn't more expensive than its main competitor,
| cash, though. It's just the costs of credit card acceptance
| are transparently added to each transaction, while the
| costs of cash are distributed over the whole day's cash
| transactions and so more opaque.
|
| Merchants have a psychological (and in some countries,
| legal) barrier to charging more for cash than other payment
| methods, even though it's the least efficient. Given this,
| cash-back is the best way to share the efficiency gains
| with the end user. Maybe if Pix or Twint or debit cards or
| what-have-you are so efficient, they should also give
| consumers cashback.
| miltava wrote:
| It could give cashback if it cost 3% of the transaction.
| But it's it's actually much cheaper. For credit cards you
| have to pay for the brand, the issuer and the acquirer.
| And each gets a nice cut.
| brainwad wrote:
| Reducing merchant fees seems like a mistake if you are in
| competition with both cash (which has high intrinsic
| merchant costs) and credit cards (which has low intrinsic
| costs, but which are padded so they're closer to the
| costs of cash, with consumer cashback coming out of this
| padding). I'm certainly not going to _choose_ to receive
| less cashback, as a consumer.
| disgruntledphd2 wrote:
| I mean, the cashback is paid for out of the fees you pay
| for the service. In a world with low capped charges (EU
| etc) then you'll just pay less, which is equivalent to
| cashback and much fairer.
| brainwad wrote:
| So long as the price is the same for cash and card (and
| Pix?), then you should pick the one that gives you the
| best kickbacks. I don't think capping CC fees will
| actually lower prices for consumers much (because
| merchants prefer round prices for psychological pricing).
| For evidence, see the fairly uniform pricing of products
| sold in euros between countries, despite varying vat
| rates between eurozone countries.
| miltava wrote:
| Pix costs are very low and the fee for the merchant as
| well. They pay less for it and get the money instantly.
| That's why many small merchants only accept pix and some
| big merchants offer discounts for payments using it.
| brainwad wrote:
| Discounts for Pix vs cash sound cool and a fine
| alternative to cashback via the payment system. Though I
| can imagine this might be hard in some countries, where
| there is a strong pro-cash lobby.
| dv_dt wrote:
| I don't think you mean transparently - credit card costs
| are invisibly added..
| jowea wrote:
| Cashback is just giving part of the profit margin of the
| fees charged on the transactions to the customer. I would
| rather that profit margin gets split between the customer
| (lower prices) and merchant. Also, didn't the EU
| eliminate cashbacks by precisely price capping
| transaction fees?
|
| I've seen merchants giving a discount for payment with
| Pix _. And a few stores refuse credit cards and only
| accept debit and Pix (and cash?).
|
| Also, isn't the main competitor to CC the debit card? And
| now in some countries instant payments? Is debit that
| rare in the US?
|
| _ Although to be honest I'm not 100% sure if it isn't
| some tax evasion thing.
| azlev wrote:
| Bear in mind that Brazil is a poor country. Cashback and
| worldwide acceptance is not what 90% brasillians need.
|
| You are right about convenience, but here, 1% fee makes a
| huge difference to make both ends meet.
|
| You can give alms with pix, to show how widespread pix is.
| miltava wrote:
| It's more like 3% if you receive the money after 30 data
| and 10% if you get it in the best day.
| vouaobrasil wrote:
| Brazil is actually a pretty rich country. It's just that
| the wealth is exceptionally highly concentrated at the top.
| Brazil has enormous resources and potential, but all that
| potential gets sucked up by the big boys in their club.
| Although I know what you mean, it's important to
| distinguish Brazil from a genuinely poor-all-over country
| where there is not much wealth anywhere. Even in poor or
| average neighbourhoods in the big cities, you can see a
| person with nothing and then another person drive by in a
| BMW.
| miltava wrote:
| Yes. But credit cards have high costs for the merchant. Thats
| why they get to give us cashback. It depends on the country,
| but the cut rate goes from 1% (in europe) to 3% in Brazil.
|
| And the merchant gets the money after a long time. It is
| possible to advance the payment but the rates are much higher
| (10%+).
|
| So, i dont think we can even think of credit cards as instant
| payment. And it has mich higher costs that, in the end, go
| back to the consumers.
| somedude895 wrote:
| Yeah but Twint is a piece of crap. Maybe Pix or Alipay are
| faster to use. But I agree, Apple Pay is pretty much perfect
| in terms of UX for in-store and especially for online
| payments.
| omega___ wrote:
| Poland has the fantastic BLIK system:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blik Used country-wide, it's
| popular enough that global stores allow using it, like
| AliExpress or Steam.
| dandellion wrote:
| Is it only available in Polish zloty for Polish citizens? Or
| could I, from a different EU country, open an account and use
| it to pay for games on Steam? My guess would be no, but it's
| worth asking.
| omega___ wrote:
| It's supported by polish banks for PLN accounts, but I
| don't think there's a requirement to be a citizen to open
| an account. I know Revolut also allows using it, if you
| create a PLN account in it.
| voxleone wrote:
| It may be good, but what does the Brazilian law say[0]?
|
| In 2021, Brazil enacted Law No. 14.063, which governs the
| digitalization of public services. Its Article 16 is clear:
|
| "Information and communication systems developed exclusively by
| the public administration shall be governed by open-source
| licenses, allowing their unrestricted use, copying,
| modification, and distribution by all public agencies and
| entities."
|
| In short, software developed solely by the public sector--
| funded with taxpayer money and intended to serve the public
| interest--must be made available under an open-source license.
|
| Pix is exposed to a legal instrument called 'Mandado de
| Seguranca'.
|
| I have written about it:
|
| https://d1gesto.blogspot.com/2025/06/brazils-pix-system-face...
|
| [0] https://www.gov.br/governodigital/pt-br/plataformas-e-
| servic...
| jt2190 wrote:
| Having an entity that's sorta kinda government (I assume that
| the Brazilian Federal Bank is somewhat independent) develop
| and run Pix brings an interesting set of problems with it,
| including how it should be regulated and by whom. Open
| sourcing the platform's software is only one form of
| audit/refulation. So maybe the source is secure and maybe
| another entity could run it but could another entity
| _participate_ in the Pix _network_ or would they have to
| establish their own separate one?
| voxleone wrote:
| >>So maybe the source is secure and maybe another entity
| could run it but could another entity participate in the
| Pix network or would they have to establish their own
| separate one?
|
| MInd you, the Central Bank of Brazil (BCB) does have
| administrative autonomy. But under Brazilian law, it still
| counts as part of the public administration when it comes
| to digital systems developed using public funds.
|
| So the legal issue isn't about how "independent" the BCB is
| -- it's about the origin of the software and who paid for
| its development. If Pix was created exclusively by a
| government entity, Law 14.063/2021, Article 16 requires it
| to be released under an open-source license. That's the
| core of my point -- a legal compliance issue, not a
| technical or governance judgment.
|
| As for your broader question: yes, open-sourcing the
| platform wouldn't necessarily mean other entities could
| plug into Pix directly. Participation in the network still
| depends on BCB regulations, trust, compliance layers, and
| access controls. Open code is transparency, not necessarily
| interoperability.
|
| But in a system as critical as Pix, open code would at
| least allow independent auditing, public scrutiny, and
| possibly innovation through forks or parallel
| implementations -- even if those don't run on the live
| network.
|
| So I agree -- it's a multi-layered governance issue. But
| transparency of publicly funded code is a foundational
| first step. That's what the law mandates -- and what hasn't
| yet been fulfilled.
| mvieira38 wrote:
| Wasn't BCB breached for a couple hundred million reais this
| month, as well? Maybe they are trying to keep the code closed
| because they know it's insecure
| iury-sza wrote:
| > Wasn't BCB breached for a couple hundred million reais
| this month, as well? Maybe they are trying to keep the code
| closed because they know it's insecure
|
| It wasn't a BCB breach. The issue was with an integrator.
| Like a client API built on top of it that provided banking
| features to fintech startups
| jowea wrote:
| Isn't it much more likely that a court would order the code
| published instead of restricting the use of an extremely
| popular payment system and brake half of the economy?
|
| I mean, they blocked WhatsApp (95+% usage) before so who
| knows, but it seems unlikely it will actually affect the
| average person.
| voxleone wrote:
| I mentioned 'Mandado de Seguranca' not to suggest halting
| Pix, but because, yes, it's the relevant instrument in
| Brazilian law for forcing public agencies to comply with
| legal duties -- in this case, transparency around public
| code. Courts would not block Pix itself unless something
| extreme happened. They might simply compel BCB to release
| the code if the legal conditions are met.
| marcosdumay wrote:
| You are complaining that the if the government publishes
| software it must be open source, and that data (without even
| looking at what data) can be requested by a judicial order?
| voxleone wrote:
| I'm not complaining. Just pointing a legal requirement.
|
| Edited
| marcosdumay wrote:
| Oh, you are complaining that it's not currently open
| source.
|
| Yeah, the government has a lot of software it still has
| to publish.
| miohtama wrote:
| Similar things happen in the EU.
|
| The EU Digital Wallet is open source. But this is not
| actually a wallet, but just an identity application. Then
| there are is Digital Euro and its wallets for which European
| Central Bank is willing to dump few billions of euros on
| closed source consultancyware.
| JoeJonathan wrote:
| I don't think there's any legal exposure here. Article 16 of
| 14.063 gives an exception to code protected by Law
| 12.527/2011. Articles 22 and 23 seem to clearly allow for not
| releasing source code if that release risks the "financial,
| economic, or monetary" stability of the country.
|
| Beyond that, Pix is so popular that I doubt a challenge would
| hold up in court. If it went to the STF, there's no way they
| wouldn't give Pix a carve out.
|
| I'm as big a fan of open source as anyone else, but can we
| audit any other payment systems anywhere? Is that a
| reasonable expectation to have for payment systems?
| em500 wrote:
| > This is hands down one of the best instant payment platforms
| at the moment. Only India's UPI can match it in features, and
| China and Thailand in adoption.
|
| I'm not familiar with Pix or UPI, so out of curiosity, how are
| they better than Alipay/WeChat Pay (which I am familiar with)?
| bat_sy wrote:
| I can answer for UPI. Unlike AliPay/WeeChat, the central
| agency (NCPI) only maintains the API. Businesses are free to
| develop apps on top. In India, there are 50s of apps enabling
| UPI transactions. You are free to download whatever app you
| prefer unlike AliPay/WeeChat duopoly.
| iury-sza wrote:
| Same for PIX. It's a payment protocol. Any fintech can
| build on top and support it.
| jt2190 wrote:
| > ... CCs should be an exception, not the norm they are now,
| with a bunch of embedded costs we all pay for, one way or
| another.
|
| To spell it out, the merchant pays fees to the payment
| processor and carries risk (chargebacks, etc) and these costs
| are included ("embedded") in the purchase price of whatever
| you're buying.
|
| Moving to instant pay moves these risks to the purchaser, which
| is probably not ideal for the merchant because it forces
| purchasers to be more careful with their spending. New
| merchants in particular would have to work harder to establish
| their reputation. Larger merchants would probably start
| offering credit again.
|
| Where "insta pay" shines is for merchants with less credit
| worthy customers, because it allows them to operate online and
| in an electronic world. Currently in the U.S. that job is done
| with cash, but perhaps very soon with privately issued
| stablecoins. I guess the big question is whether the U.S.
| _government_ should issue a stablecoin or similar electronic
| cash-like thing.
| ozgrakkurt wrote:
| It is just better in my experience.
|
| You just scan a QR code and pay.
|
| Not much point of using a credit card unless you want to
| spend money that you don't have. Or to think you are making
| "points" by spending more money
| gruez wrote:
| >It is just better in my experience.
|
| >You just scan a QR code and pay.
|
| Tap to pay (ie. NFC) with credit cards is as convenient and
| arguably more convenient than a QR code solution. At the
| very least you don't have to worry about aiming at the QR
| code and waiting for it to scan/focus, which is especially
| important if you're using it on transit systems.
| ozgrakkurt wrote:
| Still prefer a debit card for this, credit aspect just
| hasn't been of any use to me so far. And I see people
| getting into problem because of credit cards a lot.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| This also doesn't require functional cell service.
| marcosdumay wrote:
| Tap to pay leaves you at the mercy of all the usual
| bullshit credit card processors impose.
|
| What means that if you have a very normal behavior, yes,
| it's more convenient. If you deviate from the norm in any
| way, it's an unreliable piece of shit that will leave you
| hanging without money the moment you need it most.
|
| And as deviant people drop out of that system, the bar
| for deviance gets lower and lower.
| gruez wrote:
| >Tap to pay leaves you at the mercy of all the usual
| bullshit credit card processors impose.
|
| 1. "Tap to pay" refers to a technology, specifically NFC
| communications. Anyone can use it, not just "credit card
| processors". For instance, many transit agencies also use
| NFC for their passes/tickets, and those obviously aren't
| being intermediated by "credit card processors".
|
| 2. Any sort of centralized system will be susceptible to
| "all the usual bullshit credit card processors impose".
| At least with credit card companies there's theoretically
| a degree of independence from the government. A
| government run payments system, staffed by government
| appointed cronies would be even more susceptible to
| government pressure to block certain groups.
| vitorbaptistaa wrote:
| Pix already has tap to pay [1]. However it's still a
| recent adition (a few months), so most card machines
| still don't support it (AFAIK).
|
| Once this is widespread, then the only reasons to use
| credit will be cashback/points or paying in credit.
|
| [1] https://www.gov.br/secom/pt-
| br/assuntos/noticias/2025/02/pix...
| mvieira38 wrote:
| You're wasting a relevant amount of money by not using a
| credit card in Brazil. Interest rates are so high right now
| they have reached 1% monthly, which you can pocket by just
| delaying payment on everything for a month. And credit is
| stupid cheap here, too, with a bunch of different picks for
| free credit cards giving thousands of reais for anyone.
|
| If you have some money you can easily get a card with high
| cashback, as well, in the 1%+ territory depending on if you
| want big banks or not, and pay no fees.
| ozgrakkurt wrote:
| I live in central Asia, inflation is very low where I
| live.
|
| But yeah I get the point. It was similar in Turkey, but
| still wasn't that valuable to save 1% unless you are
| really trying to squeeze hard
| rodrigodlu wrote:
| Not always. I tried to buy a laptop on Lenovo's website.
| They rejected my credit cards several times, despite my
| Serasa credit rating maxed out, etc etc.
|
| But then they offered me the laptop with enough discount
| that was a no brainer. I obviously calculated the
| difference between 1x, 12x with the hidden interest -
| cashback and Pix.
|
| So 3 days lost trying to buy the thing, then instant
| approval and next day delivery when I paid with Pix.
|
| When I bought the NSW2 on pre sale, it was better to use
| installments, get some cashback, etc.
| mvieira38 wrote:
| I meant for everyday stuff, not larger purchases where
| discounts may apply, I may have oversimplified. I do buy
| stuff with Pix now and then, but day-to-day NFC credit is
| my go-to
| pm215 wrote:
| At least in the UK, one advantage of the credit card is
| that it puts the transaction under the consumer credit act.
| That means that for purchases above 100 quid the credit
| card company is jointly on the hook with the supplier if,
| for example, the supplier fails to deliver the goods
| because they go bust, or if the goods are faulty, and you
| can get your money back from the credit card company if
| necessary. This doesn't apply for debit card purchases.
| jt2190 wrote:
| > Not much point of using a credit card unless you want to
| spend money that you don't have.
|
| This is absolutely not why millions of people use credit
| cards. To repeat: Immediately handing cash to a merchant
| carries risk for the purchaser. What if the product is
| defective, or the order never filled, etc?
| rodrigodlu wrote:
| With stronger consumer protection laws I will just send
| the thing back. If the merchant does not honor, is an
| easy case to win on the small claims courts.
|
| The risk is buying from shady merchants and platforms
| that don't care about the legal system, or can delay the
| resolution of the dispute.
|
| For instance buying from China on AliExpress, I will
| obviously not use Pix (through AliPay), but my credit
| card.
| didibus wrote:
| The thing with a credit card, is that when I buy something
| online, or it never gets delivered, or turns out to be
| crap, I can get the credit card company to reimburse me.
|
| And in person, if someone manages to copy it and fraud me,
| I can also get it resolved and have the credit card company
| pay me back.
|
| Do these instant payment system offer similar protections?
| rodrigodlu wrote:
| There's the small claims courts for that, strong consumer
| protection laws.
|
| Also some banks are offering insurance on trial basis
| already.
|
| But yeah, I prefer CC on international platforms, or if
| the cashback is higher than the discount they offer via
| Pix (5% to 20%).
|
| Lenovo offered me 20% on a Laptop recently through Pix.
|
| With the discount I paid a bit more on broader support,
| keep your disks, liquid damage protection.
| elzbardico wrote:
| And from someone who lived in Brazil. Small claims court
| fucking suck. A kafkian nightmare compared to a
| chargeback.
| whatevaa wrote:
| New merchants are then hit with fraudulent chargebacks with
| ridiculous fees (they are ridiculous for small purchases) and
| all the benefits of credits cads evaporate for a merchant.
|
| Being more careful with purchases is a net benefit to society
| in general.
| jabjq wrote:
| The best instant payment system is cash. It allows the merchant
| to skip the taxes too. Unbeatable.
| victorbjorklund wrote:
| Also allows the employees to skip paying the business too.
| renrutal wrote:
| Cash is a hassle. It requires everyone to have change. You
| need to count the money, the cashier needs to count the money
| and store it. The line behind you gets longer. The end of day
| close-out process is longer.
|
| Brazilians also generally don't like to walk with cash in
| their pockets. Only politicians usually do it, but in their
| underpants.
|
| The pros is that cash is analog, no battery, internet
| connection or digital system needed to process it.
| jowea wrote:
| Also theft/robbery.
|
| Not that Pix isn't a risk, being forced to do bank
| transactions at gunpoint is a thing now, but anyway.
| sam-cop-vimes wrote:
| Cash is king - but security is an issue unless you are
| dealing with small amounts.
| simtel20 wrote:
| I can buy and pay for an airline ticket online with pix,
| and not with cash
| betaby wrote:
| > online
|
| You still can buy airline tickets with cash. Not online
| though.
| victorbjorklund wrote:
| In sweden we got Swish which is instant payments. But costs
| money when business use it (but cheaper than credit cards i
| think)
| jowea wrote:
| This is also true for Pix.
| mlinhares wrote:
| Developed countries (like the US) do have these capabilities,
| there's fed now in the US, but the banks have captured the
| government apparatus so that the government can't force it to
| become the default cos they wouldn't be making interest money
| on the cash they get to hold without instant payments.
| SideburnsOfDoom wrote:
| The second part "but the banks (in Developed countries) have
| captured the government apparatus" seems to be true mainly of
| the USA?
|
| As SEPA in the EU, and Faster Payments in UK don't seem to
| fit that.
|
| Unless you have other examples outside of the USA, or a
| different opinion on SEPA?
| weberer wrote:
| In Finland, I have to use Visa everywhere. Banks offer
| debit cards, but they use the Visa network. Some smaller
| sellers also accept Mobilepay, but its not very common.
| SideburnsOfDoom wrote:
| > In Finland, I have to use Visa everywhere
|
| Why? Finland is in SEPA.
| weberer wrote:
| I have never seen a store offering any payment method
| called "SEPA". After reading up on it, it just looks like
| some protocol to do bank transfers between countries, and
| it requires exchanging IBAN numbers. I do pay rent and
| some bills via direct bank transfer, but that's it. Its
| nothing like this Brazilian payment alternative.
| wslh wrote:
| Argentina, despite enduring ongoing economic and political
| challenges, has had a bank-to-bank transfer system since
| 1997. In 2018, it expanded to include Payment Service
| Providers (PSPs).
| kwanbix wrote:
| While it is a private service by a company called Mercado Libre
| (which means Free Market), in Argentina we have Mercado Pago
| (which means Market Pay), has instant payments and it is free
| for 99% of the people that do P2P transactions. It is free for
| anyone, meaning, you don't pay to use it. You only need your
| national document. Of course, after seeing the success, the
| banks tried to implement MODO, but it was already too late.
| dudus wrote:
| Mercado Pago is closer to PayPal than PIX. I'd say it's a
| generation behind Google Pay/Apple Pay.
| guhcampos wrote:
| This. Mercado Pago is also available in Brazil, and it
| requires you deposit funds in their own account to use.
|
| The thing about PIX most people don't get, including
| Europeans in this thread, is it integrates into whatever is
| your bank, so you can use your bank's cashing account to
| pay, no external app or account necessary.
| csomar wrote:
| Malaysia has duitnow which they recently started making it
| international. You can buy a coffee in Thailand with a duitnow
| wallet (ie: BigPay). It is also integrated with AliPay, so you
| can pay wherever AliPay is accepted (most of China).
|
| I honestly think, at this point, they should just drop the
| bomb; take their currency to the blockchain (stablecoin) and
| make the wallets fully connectable to the crypto ecosystem.
| China doesn't seem keen to take a more open role to capital
| markets, so there is a void there.
| ek750 wrote:
| agreed. Additionally it may reduce the power of fringe groups
| from pressuring private companies who are doing legal business.
| The recent Steam and itch.io takedowns due to collective shout
| come to mind.
| konart wrote:
| Russia has had a similar system for some time now.
| Argonaut998 wrote:
| Last week Trump targeted Pix and Brazil for discriminating
| against Mastercard and Visa[0]. Also last week there was the
| Steam debacle involving the same two companies which brought
| attention to the power that this duopoly holds all across the
| world. In Brazil many people, if not the majority use interest
| free instalments to pay for anything above groceries -
| "parcelas", all of which, until now, were done through Mastercard
| & Visa. So this is yet another blow to these companies and
| perhaps accelerated by Trump's threats.
|
| It also highlights how desperately the EU is behind other
| countries in this space, with the news of the dependence on Azure
| and their aims to decouple from the US.
|
| It's a nice apt story for what's being going on this last week.
|
| [0] https://www.ft.com/content/e17e6de1-d863-46f8-bfab-
| fa8cbfc49...
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Europe and the UK have instant SEPA credits and debits, no?
| That's 41 countries within the single instant payment system.
|
| https://www.ecb.europa.eu/paym/integration/retail/instant_pa...
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area
|
| https://www.pymnts.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/05/PYMNTS-Rea...
| Argonaut998 wrote:
| It's crap in comparison. It's not flexible at all. It's still
| SEPA even though it's "instant" and not all banks support it
| yet (although they are supposed to).
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| October 2025 is the deadline for all banks to support the
| instant part, and I don't understand your complaint that
| it's instant but "still SEPA." That's good! It's a utility
| that just works. You can always bolt trimmings on at the
| institutional level. What are your expectations for what it
| should be?
| MilaM wrote:
| SEPA is not crap. It's actually pretty awesome, considering
| that you can instantly transfer money between 5000+ banks
| in 30+ countries, with practically zero fees.
|
| The UX of SEPA is lacking in comparison to other modern
| payment systems for sure. I'm confident though, that it
| will improve soon. Wero [1] seems like a decent start and
| appears to be gaining traction lately. It's basically a
| layer on top of SEPA Instant payment with extra features
| and a decent app based UI/UX.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wero_(payment)
| jjcob wrote:
| In austria QR codes for sharing payment info are getting
| popular. Many invoices have a QR code on them. You can
| then use your banking app to pay the invoice.
|
| Banking apps can also generate a QR code for receiving
| payments.
|
| They are not quite as seamless as tap-to-pay, but they
| work with pretty much every bank in the Austria, which is
| neat.
| SomeUserName432 wrote:
| > with practically zero fees
|
| We pay 2.50 EUR for a SEPA transfer, it's ridiculously
| expensive.
|
| We need local integrations for every market to cut costs.
| MilaM wrote:
| That is pretty expensive, I agree. I pay zero additional
| fees when using my private account. For my business
| account I'm charged ~30 Cents flat per transaction. I
| know that there are banks offering better terms, but I'm
| too lazy to switch for just a couple of Euros in savings.
| pavlov wrote:
| Where in Europe are you getting charged that much?
|
| Usually SEPA payments are completely free for consumers.
| And I believe there's a EU-mandated fee cap which is much
| less than 2.50 EUR. But if you have a business account,
| things are different.
| alexalx666 wrote:
| N26 execs instant payments reliably in Germany
| aosaigh wrote:
| What do you mean it's not flexible? I've always thought of
| the EU as being way ahead of the US in banking terms, with
| lots of digital banks offering instant payments and all EU
| banks offering SEPA instant transfers. I'm interested to
| hear about these other platforms outside of the EU/US and
| how they are innovating.
| dathinab wrote:
| yes, but at the moment the user facing interfaces are not
| greate (in most countries, they are pretty good in some
| countries)
|
| - sending money (P2P, P2B, B2B) often requires manually
| entering a IBAN in your banking app/website (_except in some
| countries_, and some systems on top of it can also reduce the
| friction) which is okay for many P2P use cases but not good
| for physical shop checkout P2B use case or ad hoc bill
| sharing use case in P2P (also compared to some other
| solutions this often comes with less consumer protections)
|
| - doesn't interface (well) with the card payment/payment
| terminal ecosystem (but technically can and you do find it in
| some edge cases)
|
| - fast (in seconds) payment cost extra and price is
| bank/country dependent (through in some countries it's free
| or consistently "cheap" e.g. a fixed 15ct(EUR) independent of
| amount and recipient)
|
| but this is likely too change, some countries have already
| put up standards for more convenient P2P (and P2B??) payment
| methods and they seem to be in the process of being adapted
| EU wide (but not necessary UK and other non EU SEPA members)
|
| in addition there are standardized interfaces for 3rd parties
| companies to link up with SEPA and/or you bank account which
| do technically allow companies to innovate on improvements.
| Practically this often runs into issues, 1) from a consumer
| POV in many (not all) EU countries the state of card payment
| is just fine and convenient features like easy bill sharing
| many people either don't need or don't know what they miss
| out on. 2) many issues are on the (physical) shop side, but
| you need to provide things users can use and having multiple
| systems in parallel is often not very practical, 3) at the
| same time without shops allowing new systems customer don't
| have any reason to adapt such new systems
|
| anyway all of this likely will improve quite a bit relatively
| soon
| tonfa wrote:
| Also digital euro is targeting payment systems (https://www.e
| cb.europa.eu/euro/digital_euro/html/index.en.ht...)
| jowea wrote:
| From the comments it seems it supports direct person to
| person transfers, but how easy is it to use it for payments?
| Can you use SEPA to pay for your groceries? Or buy something
| on the Internet?
| vimy wrote:
| EU is building Wero to replace all the national payment
| systems. It uses sepa under the hood.
|
| https://wero-wallet.eu/
| dathinab wrote:
| > discriminating against Mastercard and Visa
|
| how can you discriminate against a duopoly ;)
|
| > It also highlights how desperately the EU is behind other
| countries in this space,
|
| (you seem to be drifting into the server center topic but I
| will take "this space" as payment processing)
|
| It's complicated, EU has many payment standards which 1) are
| required between banks, and 2) theoretically allow integration
| with new payment processing methods needing only the end-users
| agreement not the banks. So you can relatively easily send
| money between people (and to company accounts, too) without
| touching visa/mastercard at all (how easy that "relative part"
| does still vary a lot tho. (Also if you are willing to pay a
| fixed up price (commonly free or 15ct) also fast, like in
| seconds).
|
| At the same time when it comes to 1) banking cards, 2) payment
| terminals, pretty much everything is build on Mastercard/Visa
| (where I live mostly Visa). Like there is no competition when
| it comes to the secure chips this systems use. (But then both
| PayPall and pretty much all of China have kinda shown you don't
| really need them as long as you have internet, which payment
| terminal often need to for any non very small payment amounts).
| Also because people are so used to a well working reasonable
| secure card payment system many tries to push for app based
| alternatives kinda fail, sure due to their dominant position in
| online shopping Paypal is still a thing, but also commonly
| relegate to at most one of multiple options in online shopping.
| Just to be clear the exact dynamics differ _vastly_ between
| country in the EU.
|
| Any I really don't like the generic pay in rates functionality,
| it's a trap which really can fuck up peoples life (similar to
| using the dipso all the time/not getting out of it, or large
| credit boundary or however it's called for credit cards; to be
| honest dispo tends to be worse tho).
| inerte wrote:
| "interest free" deserves quotes. It appears to be so because
| the installments have the same value but in reality it's priced
| in the overall length vs price.
|
| The installment culture is so pervasive in Brazil a lot of
| places don't even bother to show the full price (a vista). And
| some of them refuse to give a discount if you want to pay the
| full price now. Not because it doesn't make economic sense, but
| it's simply not an option a regular employee in major retail
| stores is even allowed to do, as companies default marketing
| and systems to installment payments.
| vitorgrs wrote:
| Just a reminder that Google Pay supports Pix! You can pay using
| Pix with QR Code, keys or just NFC with it.
|
| There were reports that Apple doesn't want to implement on Apple
| Pay...
| diego_moita wrote:
| > There were reports that Apple doesn't want to implement on
| Apple Pay...
|
| No surprise.
|
| 1. Apple is irrelevant in 3rd world countries. It is a luxury
| brand for millionaires. Doesn't have mass appeal.
|
| 2. If Apple were to implement it they wouldn't be able to get
| away with the huge margins they charge.
| rescbr wrote:
| > Apple is irrelevant in 3rd world countries. It is a luxury
| brand for millionaires. Doesn't have mass appeal.
|
| Apple has 9% market share in Brazil. This is not irrelevant.
| It's not a luxury thing for millionaires, but rather a status
| symbol for the middle class.
|
| There's this whole market of iPhone leasing plans where you
| get a new phone whenever Apple releases a new one, banks
| offering 21x installment payment plans to purchase iPhones,
| and a vibrant secondhand and refurbished market.
|
| This 9% segment of the population can't be ignored, specially
| considering the income inequality in the Brazilian society.
| They might not have a high credit card limit or due to lack
| of financial literacy, they want to avoid using credit cards,
| so they might prefer to use debit and PIX for daily
| transactions.
| igortg wrote:
| How much of these 9% uses Apple Pay? My bet it's just a
| small part. People still use Pix and physical Credit/Debit
| Cards. Google Pay/Apple Pay are far behind.
| rescbr wrote:
| Considering all the major banks credit cards are able to
| be added to Apple Pay's wallet, my educated guess is if a
| person has an iPhone and a credit card, they are using it
| through Apple Pay most of the time. Even meal voucher
| cards are now able to be added to Apple Pay's wallet.
|
| I don't have statistics readily available, but you can
| search for CADE's (Brazilian fair trade regulator)
| inquiry 08700.002893/2025-17 on Apple's refusal to
| support Pix on Apple Pay and comb through the documents.
| henry700 wrote:
| You're right, except for the last sentence. Lack of
| financial literacy has some levels. One could refuse to use
| Credit Cards because they don't perceive the benefits
| (point programs or cashback) they could individually
| attain, but one can also refuse to use Pix because "I only
| have to pay my credit card invoice once at the end of the
| month and can spend without worries during the month"
| (which is even dumber, but is the reality we're living on).
| diego_moita wrote:
| I believe the greatest story behind Brazil's Pix, India's UPI and
| Kenya's Mpesa is the emergence of a lot new forms of money.
|
| We will have strong national currencies supported by these
| payment systems, destroying Visa and Mastercard and hurting
| PayPal, Apple Pay and Google Pay. These systems have a lot more
| potential than most people imagine (e.g.: micro lending , even
| for illiterate people).
|
| We will have "gangster money", a.k.a. crypto currencies, to
| sustain illegal activities. There is no other use case for
| crypto, only this.
|
| And we will probably have "economic blocs" money (e.g.: whatever
| thing the BRICS come up with).
|
| In this scenario I'd hope for a big change in the international
| payments system.
|
| The dollar will not have one rival, will have many. I hope it
| dies by a thousand cuts.
| hshdhdhj4444 wrote:
| One of the key benefits of India's UPI is that it's removed the
| middle man when it comes to benefits to the poor which has
| drastically reduced corruption and ensured the money goes to
| the people it's supposed to.
|
| The West likes to paint the government success in India around
| religious terms, but in reality, it's the actual improvement in
| life driven significantly by the adoption of UPI that's played
| the biggest role.
| gruez wrote:
| >The West likes to paint the government success in India
| around religious terms
|
| Examples? The only discussion of "religious terms" around
| Indian coverage by western media is about how the ruling
| party BJP panders to "Hindu nationalism", which can be
| simultaneously true alongside competent leadership.
| mkbkn wrote:
| How has UPI reduced corruption? Please enlighten me.
| orbisvicis wrote:
| > There is no other use case for crypto, only this.
|
| I'm sorry but last few months have done nothing if not
| demonstrate the need for crypto currency, aka digital cash. It
| may not be ready, but it is likely the only path forward. In
| the meantime Monero is relatively stable, sufficiently
| anonymous, and has comparatively low transaction fees.
|
| The monopoly of existing payment processors cannot continue.
| They have a stranglehold on fees and issue cards that promote
| economically harmful activities. They and contactless payment
| processors sell your data. And now they control what you can
| and can't purchase.
|
| Enter national digital currencies such as as the proposed CBDC.
| Fear-mongering sites making such outlandish claims [1]. So I do
| a bit of research, and find [2]... wait, what?
|
| "In addition, it [full anonymity] would make it virtually
| impossible to limit the use of the digital euro as a form of
| investment - a limitation that is essential from a financial
| stability perspective."
|
| Suddenly I trust [3] so much less. The technical controls
| required to implement inventory limits would just as easily
| enable expiration dates and automatic devaluation, or whatever
| overreach governments deem necessary down their slippery slope.
|
| 1. https://www.financemagnates.com/fintech/payments/cash-
| with-a...
|
| 2. https://www.financemagnates.com/fintech/payments/cash-
| with-a...
|
| 3. https://becid.eu/facts/fact-check-is-the-central-banks-
| aim-f...
|
| Where does Pix fall in this spectrum?
| BLKNSLVR wrote:
| I find it interesting your very narrow view of cryptocurrencies
| given the things you're excited about.
|
| Don't let the bad shit (and, holy shit, there is a lot)
| distract from the potential.
| atbpaca wrote:
| In a sense, Trump's rant against Pix is promoting it to the
| world. Moreover, some stores in Portugal and more recently France
| are accepting Pix as form of payment.
| jowea wrote:
| Those are for the benefit of Brazilian tourists I guess?
| guhcampos wrote:
| Generally, yes. You need an account in some Brazilian bank to
| use PIX, so these are likely Brazilian nationals living
| abroad and accepting payments directly to their Brazilian
| accounts.
| bgnn wrote:
| It's not a small population. There's estimated 40k Brazilians
| in the Netherlands for example, most of them illegal. They need
| a payment system which doesn't require a European bank account.
|
| PS: I don't think anyone is illegal, but the system push them
| out.
| anonymousDan wrote:
| I wonder what the total value to the Brazilian economy is to keep
| Visa/MasterCard's cut of so many transactions in Brazil instead
| of being siphoned offshore.
| crossroadsguy wrote:
| It's not just that. It's also about - one fine day a nation
| waking up to Visa/MC "disconnecting" that nation. Why? Well,
| maybe the mothership nation's leader just felt like it. Who the
| hell knows. The point is - these nations don't want to find
| that out. Almost all of these countries have faced such
| sanctions, blocking, control etc in one way or the other at
| some point.
| klysm wrote:
| Visa and MasterCard are shaking in their boots and will scratch
| and bite on their way down to kill anything like this in the US.
| vitorbaptistaa wrote:
| This has already started with Trump's tariffs:
| https://valorinternational.globo.com/foreign-affairs/news/20...
|
| > While the system is not named directly, a document from the
| Office of the United States Trade Representative (USTR) says
| that "Brazil also appears to engage in a number of unfair
| practices with respect to electronic payment services,
| including but not limited to advantaging its government-
| developed electronic payment services."
|
| I'd be surprised if there aren't big tech/credit card companies
| lobbying behind this.
| cynicalpeace wrote:
| When I first moved to LatAm, the cashiers always asked how many
| "cuotas" I wanted to pay. I was initially confused and realized
| it meant I could take a (interest free?) loan to pay for my
| purchases in installments.
|
| I never understood how this was common in high interest countries
| in LatAm, but unheard of in the USA.
|
| Does anyone know? Like actually know, not speculating.
| joseda-hg wrote:
| It really will depend on the country
|
| If you're using a credit card, you specify at POS how you want
| to split the purchase (Number of installments, or cuotas in
| spanish), if it's free of interest will depend on your deal
| with the bank (And if the seller has different plans)
|
| It's common for even the worse cards to charge interest at
| least from the third month onwards, but most banks have special
| deals with seller of costlier products (I'm pretty sure I could
| make a car payment with 0 interest (to my card))
|
| Can't comment further, but the US has always seemed
| particularly backwards regarding their banking: - Needing a
| third party to allow instant transfers - Mobile POS being weird
| / Needing to take a card away from a table to charge it - How
| common checks are - Overdraft fees
| d0100 wrote:
| It's common because people want goods but don't have the money
| to buy it
|
| Oh you want a $140 Instant Pot? I think you mean a 1.5x minimum
| wage Instant Pot
|
| So the only way to buy an Instant Pot is to do installments
| owebmaster wrote:
| People can't save so they need to pay with credit to buy things
| they want, even it that means paying 2x the original price.
| rescbr wrote:
| It's interest-free for the customer because the interest was
| already bundled in the good's price.
|
| It's risk-free for the retailers, as the full purchase amount
| is taken from the customer's credit card limit, but they will
| only receive the money in installments, unless they opt to
| receivables financing.
|
| There are retailers that offer discounts if you purchase in one
| lump sum. Now recently some banks started giving discounts if
| you pay the installments in advance.
|
| This is common in high interest countries as there is this
| whole financing industry that revolves around customer credit,
| and as the interest rates are high enough, there is lots of
| money to be made.
| zanellato19 wrote:
| This is such good news. The amount of value extracted of the
| brazillian people from outlandish interest rates from credit
| cards is unbelievable and this will free all of us from it.
| cadamsdotcom wrote:
| Pix is great now - one concern is that it needs to be nimble
| enough to evolve as the country does. If it is still meeting the
| needs of Brazil & Brazilians in 10+ years time that will be an
| even greater triumph.
|
| Meanwhile to the Brazilian people, congratulations & enjoy being
| world leaders in payments!
| drumnerd wrote:
| Fuck trump, the Epstein buddy
|
| Ave Brasil
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