[HN Gopher] LibreOffice slams Microsoft for locking in Office us...
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       LibreOffice slams Microsoft for locking in Office users w/ complex
       file formats
        
       Author : bundie
       Score  : 144 points
       Date   : 2025-07-18 16:30 UTC (6 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.neowin.net)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.neowin.net)
        
       | kazinator wrote:
       | Microsoft doesn't lock in people.
       | 
       | People lock in people.
        
         | majorchord wrote:
         | You might not be wrong, but yelling at people for accepting
         | conveniences that most don't even understand or care about,
         | seems a bit pointless to me. Why even stop at document formats?
         | Why not outrage over their choice of Windows itself?
         | 
         | What good do you think this does? I'm genuinely curious.
        
           | tracker1 wrote:
           | Well, according to StatsCounter, Linux now accounts for 5% of
           | desktop users. :-)
           | 
           | ChromeOS another 2.7% and macOS around 24%.
           | 
           | edit: If I were to guess, Valve/Steam is solely responsible
           | for at least 1 of those 5%.
        
           | kazinator wrote:
           | > _Why not outrage over their choice of Windows itself?_
           | 
           | Because it doesn't necessarily affect anyone. Using Windows
           | _ipso facto_ doesn 't mean you will send someone a file they
           | can't read without a Microsoft program.
           | 
           | I have two Windows machines in my home; they have LibreOffice
           | on them, as well as Firefox.
        
             | ranger_danger wrote:
             | No, but I think the people most likely to be oblivious to
             | all this, will be the ones using Microsoft programs that
             | write in proprietary formats by default... and I would say
             | they're not even wrong if that's what most other people use
             | too.
             | 
             | People send me Outlook messages all the time that I can't
             | read at all, and many Excel spreadsheets and Powerpoint
             | presentations with features that aren't supported in
             | _anything_ on Linux. I literally have to use a Windows VM
             | with proper Office to read this stuff. And not only work
             | documents, but documents from my children 's
             | school/teachers as well.
        
       | PaulKeeble wrote:
       | Its been Microsoft's strategy since its formation to make a lot
       | of proprietary technology when it moves into any space and do so
       | in a way that locks customers in such that if and when it is no
       | longer the top product the customers can't easily leave. They do
       | this in every single product and market they operate in. Where
       | they can't ultimately win they buy their competitor and integrate
       | the product then slowly kill it.
        
         | BizarroLand wrote:
         | Gates never even made DOS. He bought it from someone else and
         | rebranded it. He's been a con man since day 1.
        
           | edm0nd wrote:
           | Still the only big tech CEO who can jump over a chair tho
        
             | loloquwowndueo wrote:
             | But I bet he can't throw them the way monkey boy Ballmer
             | did.
        
             | ASalazarMX wrote:
             | New business idea: selling small luxury chairs to big tech
             | CEOs. Subscription service, if they don't pay a million per
             | month, they lose their license to jump over their chair.
        
           | psunavy03 wrote:
           | . . . being a savvy businessman is a con man? There's loads
           | to criticize about MS in the 80s and 90s, but buying DOS fair
           | and square and then building an ecosystem around it was just
           | a good business move. The stuff they got sued and almost
           | broken up over is the sketchy part.
        
             | coliveira wrote:
             | The point that he's a con man is that he signed a document
             | with IBM to supply an OS when he had none. Of course in
             | retrospect he was "smart" to go around and buy one, but in
             | fact he was promising IBM something he didn't have and in
             | an alternate universe he could be sued for that.
        
               | pletnes wrote:
               | If I order a new car, it may well not exist yet. The deal
               | is that there will be a car on hand at some agreed upon
               | date. I don't think Gates did anything more illegal than
               | the analogous car deal. More risky, perhaps, but that's
               | another thing entirely!
        
               | BizarroLand wrote:
               | IF you order a car from an unknown company, you might get
               | lucky and it turn out to be Lamborghini in 1963 but it
               | also might turn out to be Aptera Motors in 2004.
        
         | coliveira wrote:
         | It is important to remind people of this, because they imagine
         | that MS is integrating open source projects like git, linux,
         | and others for the goodness of their heart. It's well know that
         | this is just step 1 of embrace, extend, and extinguish. Next
         | step (underway) is to add many features that will work only
         | under the MS ecosystem and finally declare those original tools
         | as legacy that should not be allowed in corporations.
        
           | madeofpalk wrote:
           | I don't think anyone is under the impression that Microsoft
           | is integrating with projects like git or linux _out of the
           | goodness of their heart_. They do it for the exact same
           | reason anyone does - thats were users /customers are, and
           | they want to make money from them. This isn't some evil
           | conspiracy, it's just normal boring ways to build products
           | for people.
        
             | coliveira wrote:
             | > just normal boring ways to build products
             | 
             | Microsoft is never looking for normal, boring ways to build
             | products. A software company does't get much ahead thinking
             | like this. They're using their old and successful strategy
             | of embracing, extending, and extinguishing.
        
             | HPsquared wrote:
             | A little from column A, a little from column B.
        
         | strongpigeon wrote:
         | Honestly, having worked on Excel at Microsoft (though pretty
         | far from the file format and a long time after OOXML was
         | introduced), I'm pretty sure that the structure of OOXML is
         | convoluted because it was easier to align with the data
         | structures used by the app.
        
           | piker wrote:
           | My take as an interested third party as well.
        
       | zerr wrote:
       | Isn't it the same for PDF format spec?
        
         | atakan_gurkan wrote:
         | No. There are hundreds of programs that easily read and create
         | PDFs. OTOH, reading .docx is a pain. Far be it from me to
         | defend Adobe, but PDF is nothing like MS Office formats.
        
           | jahewson wrote:
           | Ooh that's not fair. Many PDFs don't conform to the spec and
           | how Acrobat processes them is completely undocumented.
        
             | troupo wrote:
             | It was funny for a few years when Apple just released
             | Preview, and it rendered many PDFs better than Adobe's own
             | Acrobat
        
               | Synaesthesia wrote:
               | Yeah it's a great app, one of the big reasons I still use
               | MacOS - but there's certain features which you still need
               | Adobe Acrobat for, I know to fill in the tax forms for my
               | country you do.
        
         | cogman10 wrote:
         | The PDF spec is well designed to be both very expandable and
         | easily readable.
         | 
         | It's absolutely horrible to try and edit.
         | 
         | That's because the structure of a PDF is essentially a bunch of
         | media "streams". It's very easy to say "render a jpeg at this
         | location on the page" but that's about it. It doesn't store,
         | for example, the fact that you might need to wrap words around
         | a page. Instead, it's "Here's a box with text in it".
         | 
         | The only thing that really could make PDF rendering hard is
         | adobe put a whole bunch of garbage into the spec. For example,
         | the full spec had the ability to run javascript and flash at
         | one point (not sure if it does anymore).
        
           | mook wrote:
           | JavaScript must still be there, because I think that's how
           | form validation works? Don't recall Flash ever being there
           | though.
        
             | stop50 wrote:
             | It was acrobat reader, but not in the standard. For some
             | time only the reader was needed and not the player.
        
         | izacus wrote:
         | No, that spec is outright nice if you consider the PCs it was
         | made for.
        
       | gigel82 wrote:
       | I doubt this one is explicit "locking in", as much as it's
       | reflecting the increasing internal complexity and lack of focus
       | on product quality. I'd be willing to bet the internal teams
       | dread working with the overly complex structures too.
        
         | delusional wrote:
         | At this point I doubt Microsoft could even execute on a "lock
         | in" strategy anymore.
        
       | vanderZwan wrote:
       | Hasn't this always been an argument against it? I remember
       | hearing the same arguments when we tried to get the EU to ditch
       | OpenXML over a decade ago al least.
       | 
       | [0] https://interoperable-europe.ec.europa.eu/collection/open-
       | so...
        
       | rtollert wrote:
       | Original blog post by LibreOffice is here:
       | https://blog.documentfoundation.org/blog/2025/07/18/artifici...
       | 
       | I mean... sure? When I saw this headline I was imagining that
       | Microsoft added a brand-new ultracomplicated format. But no, the
       | article is solely about OOXML. Why is the blog post re-litigating
       | a fight that LibreOffice already fought almost 20 years ago?
        
         | like_any_other wrote:
         | Those who forget the past..?
        
         | fsflover wrote:
         | Because it still matterts today?
        
       | OnionBlender wrote:
       | Why does the title say "slams" but neither the headline or URL
       | contain "slams"? I think anything that says slams is not worth
       | reading.
        
         | extrememacaroni wrote:
         | I don't think microsoft could feel a slam from anyone tbh, much
         | less libreoffice.
        
         | Ukv wrote:
         | Saving 4 characters (over "calls out") to fit within the HN
         | submission title length limit, I'd assume.
        
         | jollyllama wrote:
         | Headlinese
        
         | betterhealth12 wrote:
         | it's ridiculous, clearly to get eyeballs. there should be a
         | clickbait label on such titles
        
       | WillAdams wrote:
       | I'd really like to see an office suite which uses .md and .csv
       | where possible.
       | 
       | Mostly I use LyX and pyspread which are close/open enough.
        
         | eviks wrote:
         | These are too primitive for an office suite
        
         | prmoustache wrote:
         | > I'd really like to see an office suite which uses .md
         | 
         | It is called pandoc and a text editor.
        
       | jahewson wrote:
       | I didn't realise we'd entered a time machine to 2007. I've worked
       | extensively with OOXML and yes, the documentation is cryptic and
       | often absent, but Microsoft will help you out if you contact them
       | on their forums. I see Libre Office devs there all the time!
       | 
       | But the complexity is not some kind of conspiracy - it's inherent
       | - it comes from the fact that Office is ancient and very, very
       | complex with a huge number of features. Many features are
       | implemented in backwards compatible way on top of the old version
       | of similar features and then the whole thing has been back ported
       | from a bunch of C structure to XML which has the most woeful and
       | underpowered schema language imaginable.
        
         | troupo wrote:
         | > it comes from the fact that Office is ancient and very, very
         | complex with a huge number of features.
         | 
         | IIRC one of the many unfortunate decisions made by MS with
         | OOXML (whether intentionally, or not, or both) is to codify a
         | lot of display and formatting quirks directly in the schema
         | with very little explanation or docs. Instead of making it s
         | different namespace or layer.
         | 
         | So, to implement OOXML, you also needed to reverse engineer,
         | say, behavior of Word97 etc.
        
       | firesteelrain wrote:
       | It's not just the complex XML based format. Word has
       | collaboration tie-in's with Skype, Teams, SharePoint, OneDrive
       | etc
       | 
       | It's an entire ecosystem
       | 
       | Also, I have tried to use LibreOffice and you have to learn an
       | entirely new tool. The user interfaces are different. Word has
       | its own issues of course but LibreOffice does not feel as
       | polished
       | 
       | There are things in Word that are legacy and carry overs from
       | another time that carry various nuance. It's not all documented
       | set of features either
       | 
       | Trying to replicate the entire look and feel is incredibly
       | difficult
       | 
       | Most people are going to encounter Word in a corporate setting
       | and to have them switch to another tool is going to a big hill to
       | climb
        
         | trelane wrote:
         | If LibreOffice were smart, they'd introduce free licensing for
         | schools and universities, so the students could learn it and
         | then ask for it when they get to jobs later on.
         | 
         | Maybe they could even release the source under a copyleft
         | license, so the students can learn from it and maybe
         | contribute.
        
           | piker wrote:
           | LibreOffice is free and GPL.
        
             | trelane wrote:
             | That's the joke, yes. Though it's MPL, not GPL:
             | https://www.libreoffice.org/about-us/licenses
        
               | piker wrote:
               | Woosh!
        
         | jasonjayr wrote:
         | At one point LibreOffice + MS Office were pretty much on par
         | with each other.
         | 
         | But MS has built this giant moat of integrated proprietary
         | services around these systems that make it difficult to switch
         | away once you are sucked into the environment.
         | 
         | It takes a pretty sizable expense to switch to anything else,
         | while satisfying all of a companies different workflows for
         | various roles and levels of experience.
         | 
         | If not MS Office + it's M365 Eco system, what then? Google
         | Workspace? That's kinda the same problem in a different color?
        
           | firesteelrain wrote:
           | Google tried to get kids hooked in school and it's decent.
           | But when you want to do serious work, you need to use
           | Microsoft products. Google's product is like a toy
        
             | trelane wrote:
             | Most serious users can use things other than Microsoft just
             | fine. The problem is file compatibility. Unfortunately,
             | network effects are very much a thing. Plus most users just
             | don't realize they don't actually _have_ to keep shovelling
             | money at Microsoft.
        
               | eddythompson80 wrote:
               | I don't know much about advanced Google Docs, but I know
               | that's the far from true for Google Sheets. Google Sheets
               | covers a shit ton of ground that Excel covers, but a
               | serious user can never replace Excel with Sheets.
               | 
               | We had a lot of marketing and sales people who wanted to
               | use Google Sheets instead of Excel to load sales reports
               | from a shared PG database. This is of course a built-in
               | feature (loading a PG table as a sheet) in Excel. Google
               | Sheets obviously doesn't support any imports. They are
               | all paid plugins, and they all make you pay per row or
               | cell or column.
               | 
               | You can write a plugin to do it, except their funky
               | AppScript (which is a custom synchronous Javascript/V8
               | environment where there is no async or callbacks, and
               | promises block.
               | 
               | Except, the plugin can only connect to MySQL. PG support
               | ask has been open since 2011. They decided in 2014 that
               | they don't plan to support PG. Then in 2018 they thought
               | maybe they can only support GCP Postgres.[1]
               | 
               | Ok, fine. You make your own API to call and load data.
               | No, you can't return more than 50 MBs. So better split
               | your query.
               | 
               | Oh, you want to load a 50MB CSV? There are 3 different
               | APIs for that:
               | 
               | - "Import from GDrive". This is the one you want. Import
               | 50MB in a couple of seconds. But it also requires the
               | most permissions to full access the user's GDrive
               | 
               | - "Basic Import API". This imports at ~100kbps but not
               | always. gets slower for large data
               | 
               | - "Advanced Import API". This imports at ~250kbps but not
               | always. gets slower for small data
               | 
               | and you need to run your own benchmarks[2][3] to
               | understand which API to use in which context, then keep
               | reruning them as things change.
               | 
               | [1]:
               | https://issuetracker.google.com/issues/36752790?pli=1
               | 
               | [2]: https://gist.github.com/tanaikech/d102c9600ba12a162c
               | 667287d2...
               | 
               | [3]: https://gist.github.com/tanaikech/030203c695b3086060
               | 41587e6d...
        
               | prmoustache wrote:
               | > but a serious user can never replace Excel with Sheets.
               | 
               | This doesn't mean anything.
        
               | eddythompson80 wrote:
               | If you repeat it long enough, it'll be true.
        
             | otikik wrote:
             | I have the opposite opinion. If I have something that I
             | don't care if it's irrecoverable 5 years from now, or I
             | don't care that it prints differently on each printer, MS
             | Office can fit the bill.
             | 
             | I collaborate with others, a lot, though. Google is simply
             | better at that
        
               | firesteelrain wrote:
               | I used Google Docs a lot initially for my Masters for our
               | team projects but eventually we switched to our corporate
               | Teams collaboration space. We couldn't get Google Docs to
               | match the formats needed for assignments. Word worked out
               | of the box.
        
         | freeopinion wrote:
         | I have met very few non-techies that could tell the difference
         | between Word and Wordpad or use them any differently.
         | 
         | Most people below the age of 30 can switch between Google Docs
         | or Word without blinking. They don't use more than a few of the
         | features of either.
         | 
         | This "big hill" you mention is a fantasy.
        
           | trelane wrote:
           | You're right for home users. In businesses, the hill is also
           | that some users are power users that have locked themselves
           | in, in slightly different ways between the different power
           | users. Also the company has also locked itself in by drinking
           | deeply from the Microsoft well (e.g. AD and sharepoint and
           | Windows etc) and marketing away will cost them a _lot_ of
           | time and effort, and therefore money.
        
             | freeopinion wrote:
             | My comment was focused on Word. There is definitely a lot
             | of lock-in for the larger MS ecosystem in business. But
             | that is the nature of large bureaucracies. They struggle to
             | switch between UPS and FedEx, or between Staples and
             | OfficeDepot. Switching away from the MS ecosystem is
             | significantly harder than that.
        
             | ghaff wrote:
             | If the lawyers and the financial analysts need Windows
             | Office for certain uses let them use them. But I'd note
             | that the first edition of a book I wrote a while back had a
             | Sharepoint workflow and had moved away by the second
             | edition.
             | 
             | The licensing/support is cheaper carries some weight. But
             | Windows to Linux mostly didn't win a lot of fights on the
             | desktop. But Google Docs for collaboration and general
             | simplicity does win over a lot of companies.
        
         | SoftTalker wrote:
         | > I have tried to use LibreOffice and you have to learn an
         | entirely new tool.
         | 
         | I use word processors so rarely that every time it's like
         | learning a new tool. Whether it's Word, Google Doc,
         | LibreOffice, or anything else.
         | 
         | I will say that Google Docs and Word both feel a bit more
         | "polished" than LibreOffice which still feels very distinctly
         | like a 1990's era desktop program. I guess because it is.
        
           | ghaff wrote:
           | Latterly, I worked at a predominantly open source company
           | that switched from LibreOffice to Google Docs over the
           | screams of many. It was a night and day improvement both in
           | terms of the software itself and the ability to collaborate.
        
           | jajuuka wrote:
           | LibreOffice very much took cues from the old Office setup.
           | While alternatives like OnlyOffice took cues from the current
           | Office setup.
        
             | prmoustache wrote:
             | Libreoffice was formerly openoffice which was formerly
             | staroffice, an office suite that has its deepest origin in
             | Starwriter, a word processor for the Zilog Z80 released in
             | 1985.
        
       | Pooge wrote:
       | I know about the lack of tech-savvyness of most humans, but isn't
       | Markdown and Pandoc--if you slam a GUI in front of it--covering
       | the needs of 99% of users?
       | 
       | Granted, when you need formatting, like for a formal letter, you
       | use a template someone made but this is _not_ what most people
       | use Word for.
       | 
       | And don't get me started on "people wouldn't understand how to
       | put things in bold or italics"; they can barely use Word anyway.
       | Might as well use something much simpler. Office "productivity"
       | suites are over to me.
        
         | n8cpdx wrote:
         | If you have such little regard for formatting that markdown
         | suffices, you also don't care about the difficult edge cases of
         | docx.
        
         | carlosjobim wrote:
         | WordPad, Notepad, or TextEdit is already included on the
         | computer and perfectly fine for most writing and printed
         | communication.
        
         | thangalin wrote:
         | * https://keenwrite.com/screenshots.html
         | 
         | * https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLB-
         | WIt1cZYLm1MMx2FBG9...
         | 
         | Here are some of my Markdown documents:
         | 
         | * https://impacts.to/downloads/lowres/impacts.pdf (99% pure)
         | 
         | *
         | https://pdfhost.io/v/4FeAGGasj_SepiSolar_Highlevel_Software_...
         | 
         | * https://dave.autonoma.ca/blog/2020/04/28/typesetting-
         | markdow...
         | 
         | A lot is possible with Markdown, especially with pandoc
         | extensions.
        
       | cahaya wrote:
       | I can confirm. When trying convert simple Word sentences and
       | tables to e.g. Markdown/HTML from a Word XML you need a PhD in
       | XML edge cases and nested garbage.
        
         | paulbjensen wrote:
         | I wonder if this tool by MSFT is able to handle that:
         | 
         | https://github.com/microsoft/markitdown
         | 
         | I was amazed when I realised that Word docs were just zip files
         | and you could poke around in the xml files embedded inside of
         | them.
         | 
         | I almost implemented a working React -> Word document renderer
         | back in 2017, but it didn't have support for creating the xml
         | tags with : inside of them (which OOXML documents use).
        
           | strongpigeon wrote:
           | Technically, they're a bit more than just zip files (they're
           | OPC containers [0]), but if you're hand editing the file
           | content it doesn't really matter.
           | 
           | [0] Open Package Convention:
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Packaging_Conventions
        
           | favorited wrote:
           | Even though markitdown is a Microsoft project, it's just a
           | thin wrapper around a bunch of 3rd party Python packages. For
           | example, to go from docx to Markdown, it uses mammoth to
           | convert docx to HTML[0], then uses markdownify to convert the
           | HTML into Markdown[1].
           | 
           | [0]https://github.com/microsoft/markitdown/blob/da7bcea527ed0
           | 4c... [1]https://github.com/microsoft/markitdown/blob/da7bcea
           | 527ed04c...
        
         | superjan wrote:
         | Well, it is not pretty to see how the sausage gets made, but
         | extracting formatted text from docx is absolutely doable, no
         | PhD involved. Source: I have done it as a little sidequest
         | because it was useful to audit a set of word documents.
        
       | AtNightWeCode wrote:
       | It is a plague across the whole industry. The format in this case
       | is highly influenced by how one corp designed their own products.
       | Multiple document formats have this problem. But you can also
       | find the exact same thing in PCI DSS and other standards. Like,
       | one corp designed a tool to scan for a certain flaw and suddenly
       | it is mandatory. Just ridiculous.
        
       | eviks wrote:
       | Meanwhile, has a better modern featureful extensible rich text
       | format been invented?
        
         | prmoustache wrote:
         | asciidoc and html?
        
       | pseudosavant wrote:
       | How did this make the HN homepage? There isn't even any news
       | here. It is an argument about ~20-year-old XML file formats, at a
       | time when file formats couldn't matter less?
       | 
       | On top of that, Office supports OpenDocument formats, just like
       | LibreOffice supports Office formats.
       | 
       | Also, IME the Office XML file format is far better supported by
       | third parties - countless apps read/write them. I have multiple
       | apps installed that can read/write an Office file, but MS Office
       | is the only app on my machine that opens OpenDocument.
        
         | jajuuka wrote:
         | Yeah this is basically just an ad for LibreOffice. To be
         | complaining about XML in Office in 2025 is wild.
        
         | magicalhippo wrote:
         | Microsoft Office isn't even compatible with itself, deapite its
         | bespoke file format. For example formulas in Excel not being
         | portable between different languages.
        
         | fsflover wrote:
         | This is an old problem that is still harming the user freedom
         | and hinders the adoption of LibreOffice today, due to
         | Microsoft's anti-competitive practices. Are you saying it's not
         | worth discussing?
        
       | piker wrote:
       | I feel qualified to opine on this as both a former power user of
       | Word and someone building a word processor for lawyers from
       | scratch[1]. I've spent hours pouring over both the .doc and OOXML
       | specs and implementing them. There's a pretty obvious journey
       | visible in those specs from 1984 when computers were under
       | powered with RAM rounding to zero through the 00's when XML was
       | the hot idea to today when MSFT wants everyone on the cloud for
       | life.
       | 
       | Unlike say an IDE or generic text editor where developers are
       | excited to work on and dogfood the product via self-hosting, word
       | processors are kind of boring and require separate testing/QA.
       | 
       | MSFT has the deep pockets to fund that development and
       | testing/QA. LibreOffice doesn't.
       | 
       | The business model is just screaming that GPL'd LibreOffice is
       | toast.
       | 
       | [1] Plug: https://tritium.legal
        
         | fractallyte wrote:
         | *poring over
         | 
         | Lawyers also tend to pore a lot, so it's worth getting the word
         | right! ;-)
        
           | piker wrote:
           | TIL
        
           | gchamonlive wrote:
           | There are non-native English speaking lawyers in the world
           | afaik
        
         | gus_massa wrote:
         | There is an old post by Joel Spolsky that worked as PM in Excel
         | a looong time ago, and he agree with you: " _Why are the
         | Microsoft Office file formats so complicated? (And some
         | workarounds)_ " https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2008/02/19/why-
         | are-the-micros... (HN discussions
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12471604 (393 points |
         | Sept 2016 | 229 comments) and
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=118909 (60 points | Feb
         | 2008 | 20 comments))
        
         | eikenberry wrote:
         | > The business model is just screaming that GPL'd LibreOffice
         | is toast.
         | 
         | Only if Word formats remain dominant. There might be hope with
         | the EU moving off Word that an alternative, real standard might
         | take root.
        
         | wizzwizz4 wrote:
         | Microsoft may have the deep pockets, but there are Word
         | documents that LibreOffice opens correctly, MS Word 2007 opens
         | correctly, and MS Word 2024 _doesn 't_.
        
       | TheMagicHorsey wrote:
       | Never attribute malice where incompetence is a sufficient
       | explanation.
       | 
       | Microsoft isn't intentionally obfuscating the docx. Docx is a
       | shit-show because hundreds upon hundreds of Microsoft business
       | initiatives, executive pet projects, and ancient compatibility
       | rules have all collided to make a giant pile of dung.
       | 
       | If LibreOffice is worried about what docx does to their
       | productivity ... you should see the fucking engineers lamenting
       | INSIDE Microsoft about what it does to their friggin
       | productivity.
       | 
       | This horseshit isn't anyone's plan. This horseshit is an emergent
       | phenomenon like a fucking termite hill in your back yard ...
       | where no single termite is responsible or knoweldgeable, but all
       | of them together made a pile that breaks your lawnmower.
        
       | curiousgal wrote:
       | Tangent: Is there a Firefox extension that blocks articles with
       | _slams_ , _claps back_ , _rips_ ?
        
       | Lammy wrote:
       | > The two office suites take very different paths here.
       | LibreOffice uses the OpenDocument Format (ODF), an open standard
       | meant to be controlled by no single company. Microsoft, on the
       | other hand, created its own Office Open XML (OOXML) to support
       | every feature in its own software, giving us the familiar .docx
       | and .xlsx
       | 
       | It's so impressively underhandedly sneaky that Microsoft named
       | their ODF-competitor format "Office Open" just as
       | OpenOffice.org's (LibreOffice's direct ancestor) hype peaked with
       | OO.o 2.0 having ODF as its native format, when MS Office finally
       | had a viable _and_ popular competitor for like the first time
       | ever.
       | 
       | https://www.openoffice.org/press/2.0/press_release.html
       | (2005-10-20)
       | 
       | https://news.microsoft.com/2005/11/21/qa-microsoft-co-sponso...
       | (2005-11-21)
        
         | redeeman wrote:
         | and ooxml is basically just a serialization of microsoft office
         | internals, with attributes such as "likeword95" on certain
         | elements..
         | 
         | microsoft made a total piece of steaming turd, and its users
         | dont care.
        
           | RachelF wrote:
           | Yes, it's bad, but the users _do_ care. Most don't have a
           | choice, business machines have MS Office/Outlook/Teams as
           | default and they can't change.
        
       | TriangleEdge wrote:
       | After having worked for many companies, I think the complex file
       | formats is likely due to employee turnover, pressure from
       | management to just get shit done, and careless coding. Not ill
       | intended anti-competitive practices. The locking in is likely an
       | unintended bonus for Microsoft.
        
       | dismalaf wrote:
       | Everyone needs to stop competing with Office and just build a
       | better office.
       | 
       | The truth is, no one needs to be compatible these days. Everyone
       | is either:
       | 
       | - using the same software company-wide, whether it's LO, Google
       | Docs or MS Office
       | 
       | - exporting to PDF when sharing docs with someone outside the
       | organization
       | 
       | The real thing that LO is missing is server side hosting and easy
       | syncing... Until they get that, it's just going to be something
       | used by individuals and small orgs.
       | 
       | I still remember, at my university we had LO installed on lab
       | computers, MS Office was a "requirement" for students to
       | purchase, but most profs simply insisted we simply hand in
       | assignments as Google Docs links because there was
       | incompatibilities between .doc, .docx, the formats made by LO,
       | etc... Google Docs were the only ones that could be shared and be
       | 100% identical on every computer with the link.
       | 
       | If LO had a web hosted solution and provided easy to install
       | server code for organizations, they'd dominate. But they don't...
        
         | wizzwizz4 wrote:
         | LibreOffice has _both_ of those, provided by Collabora (the
         | main corporate developer of LibreOffice).
        
           | Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
           | I tried really hard to use Collabora 'web' solution. It is
           | unusable.
           | 
           | For those who don't know: it renders the whole LibreOffice
           | interface on server and passes it to you. Lots of issues with
           | hotkeys on non-standard layouts (I use Dvorak), with language
           | switching, with mouse behavior, with clipboard, ugh. Of
           | course it is hungry for resources. No. This isn't the way.
        
           | dismalaf wrote:
           | Hmmm... They probably need to advertise that more, or connect
           | the two. Had no idea they were related. Also the Collabora
           | website is cancer, it's not easy at all trying it...
        
       | Andrew_nenakhov wrote:
       | I loved OpenOffice.org back in the day, but in today's world with
       | no modern web collaboration option it is dead. I'm aware of the
       | attempts to make it run via browser, and no, they aren't really
       | there, not even close.
       | 
       | What we need today is a web-first suite of apps that does
       | everything Google Docs/Spreadsheets/Slides do, but uses
       | OpenDocument family of standards as their native file format.
        
         | john01dav wrote:
         | It isn't dead because it can still be used for many use cases.
         | I write many documents in LibreOffice Writer and I regularly
         | use LibreoOffice Calc for financial calculations. Also,
         | LibreOffice Calc is a stupid name because it conflicts with the
         | calculator in application launchers that search for substrings.
        
       | uzuituo wrote:
       | I use Libreoffice at work to open and edit MS Office files and it
       | works mostly fine, except for PowerPoint (missing fonts but also
       | general madness). In general, I think the LibreOffice folks did a
       | great job, esp. when it comes to MS file format support. And of
       | course they need to, because I (and I guess most people) actually
       | open more Ms files with LibreOffice than files in LOs native
       | formats.
        
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