[HN Gopher] MacPaint Art from the Mid-80s Still Looks Great Today
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       MacPaint Art from the Mid-80s Still Looks Great Today
        
       Author : decryption
       Score  : 705 points
       Date   : 2025-07-12 08:45 UTC (14 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (blog.decryption.net.au)
 (TXT) w3m dump (blog.decryption.net.au)
        
       | aidos wrote:
       | Love it.
       | 
       | At the end of the article they mention digging in to the Amiga
       | scene. If you want to feel old, Deluxe Paint turns 40 this year.
       | My mates had Amigas (I had an Amstrad) and the computing world
       | just felt full of wonder and promise. It was a magical time of
       | creation.
       | 
       | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deluxe_Paint
        
         | xgkickt wrote:
         | As one of the images states: "Happy Computing to all, And may
         | all your computing be a Delight!".
        
       | gxd wrote:
       | Awesome! You can also find great art made with Deluxe Paint for
       | the Amiga. The limitations from early computers in resolution
       | and, most importantly, palette, create unique art styles:
       | 
       | https://amiga.lychesis.net/applications/DeluxePaint.html
        
         | keyringlight wrote:
         | There was an article posted here not too long about with a
         | similar sentiment about the NEC PC-98
         | 
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44076501
        
         | ekianjo wrote:
         | some better ones here
         | 
         | https://amiga.lychesis.net/applications/AmigaDealer.html
        
         | andrepd wrote:
         | Loved this dive on one such Deluxe Paint piece:
         | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4EFkspO5p4
        
         | dan-robertson wrote:
         | These seem worse IMO. Not sure if it's the medium (eg more
         | saturated colours, the particular website) or if I just like
         | the compositions less.
        
           | zozbot234 wrote:
           | They have more color but way less resolution, thus less
           | detail. Pretty much what you would expect to see, given that
           | the original Mac and Amiga came out around the same time.
        
             | jameshart wrote:
             | Both Motorola 68000 machines, typically 512K-1024K of RAM.
             | So similar underlying constraints, under which they made
             | very different choices for how to prioritize graphics.
        
             | vardump wrote:
             | Weird there were no hires images. Amiga's horizontal hires
             | resolution was >720 pixels.
             | 
             | Of course, in order to get square pixels, you needed to
             | enable interlace as well.
        
           | justsomehnguy wrote:
           | The usual case of looking at pictures what was made on and
           | for a CRT monitor (or even TV).
           | 
           | You can try Screenitron to imitate something like this.
           | 
           | https://littlebattlebits.xyz/screenitron
        
         | mock-possum wrote:
         | Using colour cycling to achieve animation-like effects is so
         | hot.
        
           | corysama wrote:
           | Can't mention that without linking the master of the effect
           | 
           | http://www.effectgames.com/demos/canvascycle/ (hit "Show
           | Options")
           | 
           | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMcJ1Jvtef0
        
       | reconnecting wrote:
       | Then we should probably mention
       | 
       | http://macpaint.org
       | 
       | (From page HTML source) <!-- ******** HELLO OLD COMPUTER USERS
       | ******** --> <!-- This site is designed to be viewable at 640x480
       | resolution or higher in any color mode in Netscape/IE 3 or any
       | better browser, so if you're using an LC III or something, you're
       | welcome. In fact, I really hope you are using such a machine,
       | because limiting the site to this level of simplicity wouldn't be
       | worth it unless someone is. Please let me know if you are using
       | an old computer to visit the site so I know it is worth it to
       | someone to maintain this compatibility. I do apologize for the
       | one javascript error that you may get on each page load, but I
       | don't expect it to cause any crashes. The major exception to all
       | of this is Netscape 4. That thing sucks. -->
       | 
       | Does anyone even remember why Netscape 4 was bad?
        
         | numtel wrote:
         | I think it was a total rewrite, similar to why Winamp 2 was
         | great, fast, not bloated but Winamp 3 was slow, adding
         | extraneous features nobody wanted.
        
           | reconnecting wrote:
           | True, Winamp 2 was much solid. Unless I'm mistaken Winamp 3
           | introduce skins and after absolute madness starts.
        
         | jfim wrote:
         | NN4 tended to crash more than NN3, it may have been due to the
         | rushed development during the browser wars.
        
           | reconnecting wrote:
           | There was problem with styles and tables.
           | 
           | https://sbpoley.home.xs4all.nl/webmatters/netscape4.html
        
         | spydum wrote:
         | Browsers were changing quickly back then, but if anybody
         | remembers, it became Netscape Communicator and tried to expand
         | to do everything..
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netscape_Navigator#:~:text=Thi...
        
           | reconnecting wrote:
           | If I'm not mistaken Netscape Communicator was just a pack of
           | different applications, including NN. The real issue seems to
           | be was specific CSS and some style rendering.
        
         | cmrdporcupine wrote:
         | From vague memories I remember NN4 on classic MacOS was, I
         | recall, a total memory leaking / crashing shitshow. I worked in
         | a shop that had a bunch of Macs and the rule was you couldn't
         | run FileMaker (which they used a lot) and Netscape at the same
         | time because the two would just run over each other memories.
         | The glory days of lack of memory protection on MacOS 7.6.
         | 
         | But I also don't think 3 was much better.
        
         | giantrobot wrote:
         | > Does anyone even remember why Netscape 4 was bad?
         | 
         | Netscape 4 is a broad set of releases over several years. It
         | also wasn't necessarily "bad". It was just largely not
         | mindblowingly better than Netscape 3 (for normal users) while
         | using more CPU and RAM.
         | 
         | I also imagine in this context it's incomplete CSS support is
         | problematic. Netscape 3 will ignore properly commented out CSS
         | (mostly) while 4 will try to interpret what it can and choke on
         | the rest. It's box model doesn't conform to where the CSS spec
         | landed so even if you can give it CSS it _can_ handle, your
         | page is broken in every other browser.
        
           | reconnecting wrote:
           | I'm jealous of your memory capabilities, and I certainly
           | remember that at some point it was nearly impossible to make
           | website looks in similar way in Netscape and IE.
           | 
           | At the end, there was something like acceptable variation in
           | page view for different browsers.
        
             | mr_toad wrote:
             | The rendering differences were at least as much IE's fault
             | as Netscapes. It took several versions before IE was
             | (mostly) standards compliant.
        
               | giantrobot wrote:
               | You're not wrong. IE seemed very much designed around the
               | Embrace, Extend, Extinguish concept. It made it
               | incredibly difficult to write cross-browser CSS.
        
             | giantrobot wrote:
             | > I'm jealous of your memory capabilities,
             | 
             | Thanks. Learning web development back then left some deep
             | scars and lasting lessons. I can no longer imagine all the
             | other stuff I _haven 't_ retained because I remember stupid
             | browser quirks from nearly three decades ago.
             | 
             | Getting many designs working consistently between IE and
             | Netscape was impossible. The 640px wide left-aligned table
             | layout was popular for years because it was the easiest
             | common denominator that looked acceptable in both browsers.
        
               | reconnecting wrote:
               | When back to this time the web was mostly a pain,
               | especially for developers, there was also some magic.
               | 
               | Take for example VRML, particularly VRML 2.0. I don't
               | remember the software name, but there was a chat system
               | within a virtual world, perhaps running in a browser (1).
               | 
               | 1. https://csdl-
               | images.ieeecomputer.org/mags/cg/1999/02/figures...
        
         | kragen wrote:
         | Well, like the comment said, it crashed a lot when you tried to
         | run JS on it. It was pretty annoying to binary-search for a bug
         | in your JS when the symptom was a browser crash. Also, it used
         | a lot more RAM than Netscape 3 and was slower, but I don't
         | recall it being better in significant ways.
         | 
         | DHTML in Netscape 4 was also completely incompatible with DHTML
         | in IE 4. In IE you had the DOM, which is an inconvenient and
         | inherently very inefficient interface that you could coerce
         | into doing anything you wanted. In Netscape 4 you had layers.
         | Our team (KnowNow) was working on an AJAX and Comet toolkit at
         | the time (02000). In order to not write separate versions of
         | our Comet applications for the two browsers, we stuck to the
         | least common denominator, which was basically framesets and
         | document.write.
        
           | reconnecting wrote:
           | Indeed, browsers learned how to hurt people from their
           | earliest days.
        
       | Mizza wrote:
       | That first one looks like a parody of 'View of the World from 9th
       | Avenue' but I don't know what Acius was!
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/View_of_the_World_from_9th_Ave...
        
         | decryption wrote:
         | I wish I knew what Acius was or is too!
        
           | B1FF_PSUVM wrote:
           | From a search for "acius mac":
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_Dimension_(software)
           | 
           | Software outfit founded by a French guy, as hinted by the
           | drawing with Paris visible ...
           | 
           | (Those "view from ..." were plentiful at the time)
        
       | perihelions wrote:
       | I think the .png images on this website are larger than the
       | uncompressed originals (1-bit depth, 1 bit per pixel).
        
         | decryption wrote:
         | Yep, I upscaled them by 400% so they're easier to view on
         | modern displays.
        
           | perihelions wrote:
           | I know; I mean to say they're larger file sizes--the PNG
           | compression ratio is effectively less than one.
           | 
           | Take the first one, "acius.png", at 84,326 bytes. If you
           | losslessly scale back to the original size (1/4th) and
           | convert to 1-bit NetPBM, it's 51,851 bytes, without
           | compression. I thought that was remarkable.
        
             | encom wrote:
             | The PNG files seem to be very poorly compressed.
             | $ oxipng -o max --strip all -avZ --fast acius.png
             | Processing: acius.png           2304x2880 pixels, PNG
             | format           8-bit Indexed (2 colors), non-interlaced
             | IDAT size = 84251 bytes           File size = 84326 bytes
             | Transformed image to 1-bit Indexed (2 colors), non-
             | interlaced       Trying filter None with zopfli, zi = 15
             | Found better result:           zopfli, zi = 15, f = None
             | IDAT size = 24466 bytes (59785 bytes decrease)
             | file size = 24541 bytes (59785 bytes = 70.90% decrease)
             | 24541 bytes (70.90% smaller): acius.png
        
       | zozbot234 wrote:
       | Thanks for finding this! A relic from a more civilized age.
        
       | RayBarfing wrote:
       | rembrandt paintings from the 17th century still look great today
        
         | spankibalt wrote:
         | Yeah. Seems that art might be... _timeless_.
        
       | nntwozz wrote:
       | The loading time for this artwork has a quality all of its own.
        
       | poisonborz wrote:
       | I envy that small world, where people could be this genuinely
       | enthusiastic about their computer products and companies, where
       | most actors seeked the best interest of other parties.
        
       | anthk wrote:
       | The UXN people did similart art too: https://xxiivv.com
       | 
       | https://wiki.xxiivv.com/site/noodle.html
        
       | fifticon wrote:
       | so does roman mosaics :-)
        
       | promiseofbeans wrote:
       | The 2nd artwork ('A Door Somewhere " - Bert Monrov) had me really
       | confused for a moment. When I scrolled down to it, there was a
       | sort of flickering effect, like as if it were a gif, with a
       | flickering light adding ambience to the scene.
       | 
       | But no, it's just how that sort of black & white shading looks
       | when you scroll past it - amazing effect!
        
         | donkeybeer wrote:
         | What monitor do you have?
        
         | SSLy wrote:
         | As the neighbour mentions, it's only a case of your display
         | having ghosting. This effect is not present on eg. OLED
         | screens.
        
       | seabombs wrote:
       | There's a term I read about a long time ago, I think it was
       | "aesthetic completeness" or something like that. It was used in
       | the context of video games whose art direction was fully realized
       | in the game, i.e. increases in graphics hardware or capabilities
       | wouldn't add anything to the game in an artistic sense. The
       | original Homeworld games were held up as examples.
       | 
       | Anyway, this reminded me of that. Making these pictures in
       | anything but the tools of the time wouldn't just change them,
       | they'd be totally different artworks. The medium is part of the
       | artwork itself.
        
         | lukan wrote:
         | Hm, are you sure that there is not some nostalgia at play here?
         | 
         | To me they look horribly pixelated and at least some would
         | improve aesthetically a lot for me with a higher resolution.
        
           | zozbot234 wrote:
           | Even today these pictures have an almost perfect resolution
           | for showing on a compact e-paper display. The viewing area on
           | the original Mac models was not that much bigger, either.
           | They only look "horribly pixelated" when artificially
           | upscaled for a modern big screen.
           | 
           | (A pixel-art specific upscaling filter would mitigate that
           | issue, of course.)
        
             | lukan wrote:
             | I was viewing them via a small mobile screen, not high DPI,
             | not fullscreen. And to me, they simply don't look good the
             | way they are.
             | 
             | But if you folks enjoy them, go for it. Otherwise taste is
             | subjective I think.
        
               | reconnecting wrote:
               | It's amazing what people achieved with the resources of
               | the '80s, creating fairly enjoyable visuals using
               | extremely limited technology.
               | 
               | Another example from the early '90s is MARS.COM (1) by
               | Tim Clarke (1993). Just 6 kilobytes and 30+ fps on a
               | 12MHZ 286 (2).
               | 
               | 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_zSjpIyMt0k
               | 
               | 2. https://github.com/matrix-
               | toolbox/MARS.COM/blob/main/MARS.AS...
        
               | lukan wrote:
               | It is definitely amazing what they pioneered and achieved
               | with the given limits.
               | 
               | But that doesn't mean I would enjoy a pixelated image now
               | more than a high resolution image of the same motive.
        
           | fwipsy wrote:
           | Of course there's a subjective element, but I was born about
           | a decade after these were created and I find them to be
           | beautiful. I love the mural with the tree, it's amazing how
           | it creates a sense of openness that wants me to go outside,
           | even with such a limited palette.
        
           | anthk wrote:
           | You have no idea on how charming these games look.
        
             | lukan wrote:
             | Or I do, because I played them?
             | 
             | But that was my not well received point about nostalgia ..
        
               | anthk wrote:
               | I didn't play them. but I owned a Game Boy in late 90's
               | and I emulated 8-16 bit microcomputer/console games in
               | 2001-2005, and I really appreaciated them.
        
               | Keyframe wrote:
               | I get your point. Truth is on both ends though. There
               | truly are games which peaked in their visual style and
               | even with modern power at their disposal nothing could be
               | added that would make them look better. The medium they
               | used, some of them, they used it to its maximum
               | potential. I'd take pixel art's swan song game of
               | Castlevania: Symphony of the Night. Modern rendition of
               | it with let's say more detailed graphics, even vector
               | one, would just make it look worse. It's perfect the way
               | it is and I'd argue if you were to do it today and you
               | chose the same art style, it'd come out the same with
               | only smaller differences (like overall high resolution
               | but still "subdivided" into smaller ones, effectively
               | still being lower resolution).
        
               | lukan wrote:
               | I get the aesthetics of pixel art games. And I would
               | likely not enjoy modern remakes of them. My point above
               | was just, that I do admire those arts as great of their
               | time - but looking at them today like in the picture
               | above, I simply don't like the pixel style as an art
               | style on its own.
        
             | chamomeal wrote:
             | Looks like return of the obra dinn! Which was obviously
             | targeting this look on purpose.
             | 
             | There are also some great blog posts by the obra dinn guy
             | about 1-but dithering. They make the rounds on HN once in a
             | while
        
         | al_borland wrote:
         | I have to imagine that fully realizing a vision can only truly
         | take place when the artists are not working at the limits of
         | the present day tools. I'm thinking of something like games
         | today that choose an art style and run with it, rather than
         | trying to push the hardware as hard as possible.
         | 
         | Was this the artist's vision, or were they simply making the
         | best of the tools they had?
        
           | zozbot234 wrote:
           | Pixel art is very much still around today, even though it's
           | far from "pushing" the limits of current hardware. It's
           | pursuing a rather consistent "vision" of maximizing quality
           | while staying within the bounds of a predefined level of
           | detail (i.e. resolution) and color depth.
        
             | al_borland wrote:
             | Right. This is kind of what I'm talking about. Someone
             | choosing pixel art today is making a choice; they have a
             | vision. 40 years ago, they were limited by the system. The
             | choice was largely made for them.
             | 
             | Old video games come to mind. The box art would be
             | drastically different than the look of the game. The box
             | art was the vision, the game was what they ended up with
             | after compromises due to the hardware of the day. I think
             | it's only been in the last decade or so that some game
             | makers have truly been able to realize the visions they had
             | 40 years ago.
        
               | rchaud wrote:
               | I think of the box art and physical manual of a video
               | game like Diablo from 1996, compared to the game itself.
               | The manual had several detailed drawings of monsters and
               | otherworldly creatures with a very "evil" look, but the
               | game itself they were represented as blocky sprites with
               | fairly comical movement, as characters moved on a
               | isometric chessboard-style grid, with abrupt turns and
               | limited speed. Ultimately the gameplay is what mattered,
               | the box art, in-game music and sound effects all created
               | an atmosphere that wouldn't have been as immersive with
               | just graphics.
               | 
               | A point of comparison would be to the game Quake, which
               | came out the same year, and whose graphics felt light
               | years ahead . But Quake mostly became a multiplayer hit,
               | as the single-player story and overall atmosphere weren't
               | very compelling.
        
             | armchairhacker wrote:
             | I think most indie developers choose pixel art (and low-
             | poly 3D) today because they still can't produce high-
             | quality high-detail art, and high-quality pixel art is
             | prettier than low-quality high-detail art.
             | 
             | It's still a case where the developer can't truly express
             | their vision, but they can express it behind a filter, in
             | this case pixelation, that makes our brains charitably fill
             | in the missing details.
             | 
             | Although I'm sure for some games it is part of their
             | vision, because there's something intrinsically pretty
             | about pixel art and low-poly 3D. Likewise there are 2D
             | games like Cuphead that emulate "cartoon" style, and 3D
             | games like Guilty Gear that emulate 2D anime; those are
             | much harder than making a 2D or 3D game with traditional
             | modern graphics.
        
               | anthk wrote:
               | Games from Neo Geo were pixel art of very high quality.
               | Just check Garou.
        
               | qgin wrote:
               | I think a slightly different way to think about it is
               | that it's not always contest for maximum detail. Apple's
               | new liquid glass look is impressive, but is it
               | necessarily better UI than System 9? I think you could
               | have a reasonable debate about that.
        
           | nine_k wrote:
           | I'd say that the nearly opposite is often true: the
           | limitations shape art and even make it art. The masterful
           | handling of limitations, and doing apparently impossible, is
           | a legitimate part of art.
           | 
           | Academic Western poetry shed the metre and the rhyme in an
           | attempt to be free from limitations and more fully express
           | things. Can you quote something impressive? OTOH rap,
           | arguably the modern genre of folk poetry, holds very firmly
           | to the limiting metre and rhyme, and somehow stays quite
           | popular. If rappers did not _need_ rhyme as a tool of
           | artistic expression, they probably would abandon it, instead
           | of becoming sophisticated at it.
           | 
           | Same with pixel art, and other forms of pushing your medium
           | to the limits, _and beyond_.
        
         | timoth3y wrote:
         | The same holds true for everything from cave paintings to Roman
         | frescos. It's part of human expression. The tools of that
         | expression shape it.
         | 
         | For example, Bach's music was shaped by the fact that the
         | harpsichord had no sustain. The piano changed that, but
         | "upscaling" Bach's work to take advantage of this new
         | technology would destroy them. You use the new technology to
         | play them as they were written for the old. The beauty comes
         | through despite the change.
        
           | dahart wrote:
           | Switched on Bach is one of my favorite albums of all time.
        
             | rectang wrote:
             | Switched-on Bach is a revelation in part because the synth
             | bass tones are more focused, distinct, and identifiable
             | than when the same notes are played on acoustic instruments
             | -- allowing you to hear harmonic interplay which I believe
             | is closer to what Bach heard in his head.
             | 
             | But here are lots of Bach synth albums and only Wendy
             | Carlos' work has the taste and obsessive fidelity to the
             | original compositions to allow those ideas to come through.
             | Most synth Bach falls into the trap of being idiomatic
             | synth rather than idiomatic Bach, akin to playing Bach on
             | the piano without considering how it would have sounded on
             | the harpsichord.
        
             | sovietswag wrote:
             | You should take a listen to Tomita as well then! There is
             | so much beautiful music in the world
        
               | copperx wrote:
               | Way too much, in fact, if we go by daily Spotify uploads.
        
               | dahart wrote:
               | I definitely listened to a lot of Tomita as a kid, I used
               | to check out vinyls of his albums from my local library.
               | The one that sticks with me most distinctly is his very
               | unique rendition of Golliwog's Cakewalk.
               | https://youtube.com/watch?v=dPQ9d10fnko But yeah, lots of
               | other great stuff from him too.
        
             | Barbing wrote:
             | Awesome, thanks. Had an inkling whatever Spotify came up
             | with wasn't right--thank you TIA for Wendy Carlos's 1968
             | original!:
             | 
             | https://archive.org/details/wendy-carlos-witched-on-bach
             | 
             | (have to donate to Internet Archive again now...) anyway
             | Wiki says this album essentially brought the Moog/synths
             | from experimental to popular music. In a lovely fashion, my
             | ears do say.
        
               | Barbing wrote:
               | Update:
               | 
               | Wendy Carlos is still with us at 85 years of age, but
               | apparently hasn't been able to press CDs for two decades,
               | and hasn't licensed her music for streaming. Her site
               | links to CDs on Amazon, w/o new copies available. She
               | sounds dope, even being an "accomplished solar eclipse
               | photographer" per Wiki.
               | 
               | If anyone knows her I'm curious if someone could help her
               | preserve/distribute these beautiful sounds. (Maybe
               | they're all preserved but just not distributed, and maybe
               | she's chillin' and doesn't need another cent so it'd just
               | be hassle--wanted to throw it all out there for y'all.)
               | 
               | --
               | 
               | ...thanks OP for the great art btw, since I haven't
               | mentioned it yet. Stood the test of time!
        
           | madaxe_again wrote:
           | Similarly, Liszt made full use of what modern, powerful
           | pianofortes are capable of - although were he a man of our
           | times, he'd probably have been fronting a heavy metal band.
        
             | giraffe_lady wrote:
             | Western classical music had a strong tradition of taking
             | advantage of cutting edge technological advances,
             | especially in metallurgy but also advanced woodworking
             | techniques like lamination making large soundboards
             | possible and pushing the bounds of acoustic amplification.
             | 
             | It wasn't until I think around the advent of recorded music
             | and electric amplification that it settled into a fairly
             | stable set of instruments & sounds produced by them.
        
               | shermantanktop wrote:
               | Settled, or ossified? Sure, there's modern classical with
               | more adventurous instrumentation, but that's not what the
               | moneyed retirees down at the opera house want to hear.
               | 
               | The music of the classical canon is unbelievably
               | fantastic, and it deserves respectful treatment, but the
               | genre has lost the audience for cool new sounds. It's
               | very unfortunate.
        
               | madaxe_again wrote:
               | Neither, I'd argue. The greats that we look back at were
               | the outliers, the madmen at the fringe. For every
               | Beethoven or Mozart there were a thousand thousand
               | nobodies cranking out the same stuff that their
               | grandfathers wrote. Rachmaninov was seen as nouveau trash
               | in his time, Holst derided, Gershwin hackneyed. Eno
               | perhaps falls into the same category.
               | 
               | Hell, in a century you'll see string quartets banging out
               | Aphex Twin at elegant soirees. The real connoisseurs, of
               | course, nod knowingly and mutter that drukqs is "early
               | period".
               | 
               | Similarly, plainsong was seen as "classical" music for
               | many centuries, and was also a largely rigid form, but
               | there exist some absolute bangers in the canon, mostly
               | unattributed because monks.
               | 
               | It's hard to see the sweep of history from within it.
        
               | giraffe_lady wrote:
               | Yeah I actually used that word as I wrote it, and then
               | switched it so I wouldn't come across as judgmental or
               | anticlassical or whatever. I think it's a valid view of
               | it. But my perspective here is that this kind of music is
               | basically german-french elite traditional ethnic music.
               | And as I don't negatively judge for example gamelan or
               | carnatic or gagaku music for being settled/ossified I
               | shouldn't judge traditional european music for that
               | either.
               | 
               | It's simply not the role of any one musical practice to
               | be at the forefront of experimentation forever. What we
               | now call classical passed its torch on generations ago,
               | and rock & jazz have now settled in too. We have hip hop
               | and electronic music taking this role now, and eventually
               | they will bind up into their own conventions and some
               | descendant of theirs will push on.
        
               | somat wrote:
               | I have this same ontological debate with myself, I settle
               | it by having a rather stricter definition of classical
               | music. Classical music is popular music that has remained
               | popular for longer than two generations of listeners.
               | Music that follows that certain large scale form is
               | orchestral music.(or whatever sub genre it is)
               | 
               | This annoying behavior does not win me any friends but
               | remember that the great classical composers were the rock
               | stars of their day.
        
               | mr_toad wrote:
               | > but that's not what the moneyed retirees down at the
               | opera house want to hear.
               | 
               | The last (well only) time I was in an opera house the
               | retirees were listing to Blue Oyster Cult.
        
               | copperx wrote:
               | Classical and jazz just stopped trying and standardized
               | the instruments. Other types of music are more open to
               | incorporating new instruments. At least that's how I
               | feel.
        
               | giraffe_lady wrote:
               | FWIW the jazz tradition is still alive and well, it just
               | isn't normally called that in the interest of not being
               | confused with the still-extant "traditional" jazz and
               | because many of the musicians consider themselves to be
               | primarily part of some other community.
               | 
               | But there is an absolutely thriving collaboration- and
               | improvisation-based music form grounded in jazz but open
               | to novel & experimental instrumentation and ripe with
               | influence from other contemporary forms like pop, hip
               | hop, funk, reggaeton, metal. I'm thinking of people like
               | thundercat, kamasi washington, nuclear power trio, tigran
               | hamasyan, robert glasper, sungazer, domi & jd beck, louis
               | cole etc.
               | 
               | If you like the _sound_ of old school jazz, the standup
               | bass the piano the brush drum shuffle, this stuff will be
               | alien and hostile and won 't feel like jazz to you. But
               | if you like the musicianship of jazz, watching masters
               | collaboratively invent new music in real time, this is
               | where that ended up.
        
           | libraryatnight wrote:
           | Understanding this point about cave paintings is crucial to
           | not being a human piece of garbage.
        
           | drewlesueur wrote:
           | This reminds me of how the pixel version of Chicago font
           | looks great but the vector version doesn't.
           | 
           | https://x.com/susankare/status/1599662756252483585?s=46
        
         | xgkickt wrote:
         | Vib Ribbon is one example I can think of that also exhibits
         | that property.
        
         | anton-c wrote:
         | Thats an interesting concept. Considering it, the big first
         | party titles certainly had stellar presentation art-wise.
         | Doesn't seem like they were limited in achieving their vision
         | in say, sonic the hedgehog. Even the later games with pseudo-3d
         | the art direction makes it feel complete and like it fits the
         | aesthetic.
         | 
         | And even the new ones that have gone back to that style have
         | the same 'look'(obviously because they're trying to be like
         | those old games) but the graphical fidelity doesn't seem to
         | change much beyond more pixels.
        
         | techpineapple wrote:
         | It's interesting to think about the intersection of cultural,
         | technology and aesthetic.
         | 
         | Gaming embraces most of its historical aesthetics while say
         | movies do not. There aren't serious attempts to replicate the
         | aesthetic of 50's tv (which are tied in heavily with the
         | culture of the time) similarly, jn the eighties and I imagine
         | prior, I've been watching Miami vice and you can tell lots of
         | the rooms are cheap sets with pretty minimal props. This is on
         | the one hand definetly not full formed, but on the other hand
         | I've grown to appreciate that aesthetic, And again other art
         | forms like painting and video games seem to appreciate all eras
         | of aesthetics in their modern versions in a Way tv and movies
         | don't. (Maybe just due to expense?)
        
         | bane wrote:
         | I was also considering the effect of how silent computing used
         | to be. It created a tension and expectation when waiting for an
         | image to appear like waiting for a curtain to open on a play.
         | So when the artwork appeared, the artists worked to make it
         | beautiful. It was almost pushing the edge of what these systems
         | could do, and so as a viewer placed you in an engaging
         | experience right at the state of the art.
        
         | mattbettinson wrote:
         | Maybe recency bias cause I'm playing it right now, but Breath
         | of the Wild comes to mind
        
           | tinco wrote:
           | It might be but it's hard to tell because it's such a recent
           | game. The Wind Waker might be a better example because it's
           | now 20 years old and still renders and plays basically as if
           | it's current gen on modern hardware.
        
             | pjerem wrote:
             | Except Wind Waker is actually a good and a bad example. Its
             | art style has not aged but the HD remaster (on Wii U) is
             | still better looking.
        
           | z3c0 wrote:
           | I don't know, I think some improved hardware would greatly
           | improve the aesthetics of the Lost Woods, which severely
           | drops in frame rate when docked. Handheld, the diminished
           | fidelity at 720p buys back some frames.
           | 
           | I'd be inclined to agree about some older Zelda games though,
           | namely Wind Waker. I replayed it on GCN recently, and can
           | attest that HD Wii U version really didn't add anything to
           | the aesthetics.
        
             | easton wrote:
             | The Switch 2 update seems to have resolved every
             | performance complaint I had with TotK, if you're willing to
             | pay the price of admission.
        
         | AndrewStephens wrote:
         | I am not a game purist and modern games are just fine, but I do
         | not see the point of AAA games employing 300 artists to model
         | blades of grass that have no gameplay effect. Sure, the screen
         | shots lot great but unless you are making GrassSimulator2000 it
         | would have been better to use those resources for something
         | else.
        
           | dehrmann wrote:
           | There's a solid chance GTA VI will include a lawn mowing
           | minigame.
        
           | bredren wrote:
           | As a person who spent a great deal of time restoring a long
           | neglected backyard to include a small lawn to play on, I am
           | interested in playing GrassSimulator2000.
        
         | SlowTao wrote:
         | A lesser known title that I think hit that perfectly is Rez. So
         | much so that the re-release almost 15 years later was for the
         | most part, just higher resolution and cleaner rendering. But
         | the overall style was not touched one bit.
        
       | Hilift wrote:
       | The review at the time was if you weren't a particularly good
       | artist, MacPaint wouldn't change that.
        
       | lowwave wrote:
       | Crazy to see 4D in there, is it actually a 4D poster with the big
       | 4 in there?
        
       | taylorius wrote:
       | The lack of photorealistic fidelity gives your brain a bit of
       | room to use imagination to fill in the blanks in your internal
       | model. This fosters a certain type of engagement with the content
       | that you don't get with photorealistic images.
        
         | tombert wrote:
         | I think that's part of the reason that a lot of indie games
         | have converged around pixel art.
         | 
         | Obviously a large part of it is likely due to the fact that a
         | lot of the creators grew up with the NES or SNES and just like
         | that aesthetic, but I think you get a lot of "implied detail"
         | when using pixel art, which is great when you're working on a
         | limited budget.
         | 
         | This isn't to knock it, to be clear. I love good pixel art.
        
           | anthk wrote:
           | YOu both are missing something. TV fuzzy rendering blended
           | pixels together and FFVI under the SNES (and Chrono Trigger)
           | could look astoundingly great with amazing colours and sprite
           | art.
        
             | tombert wrote:
             | Sure, but I was referring to how modern indie games, that
             | have no worries plans to run on an old CRT TV, will still
             | use pixel art.
        
       | HPsquared wrote:
       | Similarly, some cave paintings still look awesome.
       | 
       | https://www.bradshawfoundation.com/lascaux/
        
         | eddieroger wrote:
         | Snark aside, that was my takeaway looking at the article. Why
         | wouldn't they still look good? They were well done when they
         | were made. The Mona Lisa still looks good. The tools don't
         | define the quality, just the constraints. For grayscale pixel
         | art, these are amazing pictures that hold up to the medium,
         | regardless of if computers can do more now.
        
         | roughly wrote:
         | One thing I read a while back noted that the cave paintings
         | were also painted under and for specific lighting - namely,
         | dim, flickering fire - and that under those conditions the
         | paintings took on an even more expressive character.
         | 
         | What's wild is that would be true for every single human work
         | up to about the mid-1800s. Art - and architecture - would be
         | made to be seen either in sunlight, with its attendant shadows
         | and shifts throughout the day, or by firelight, which flickers
         | and shifts on its own.
        
       | Dante690 wrote:
       | Really interesting. I'm wondering if there's any LLM or image
       | model on Hugging Face that has been trained specifically on low-
       | res black-and-white images like MacPaint. Has anyone come across
       | something similar or seen a fine-tuned model in this specific
       | retro visual style?
        
         | sgt wrote:
         | Not sure why you're being downvoted. I'd like to see this, too.
         | Just for fun.
        
           | amelius wrote:
           | I think it is downvoted because it would potentially harm the
           | creative value of the original works.
        
       | JSR_FDED wrote:
       | This dithering is somehow so pleasing. It's like "sand
       | dithering".
        
         | wenc wrote:
         | "Dithering" is the key -- except this seems to have been done
         | by hand.
         | 
         | When I was a kid, I owned a monochrome display that could only
         | display at CGA resolutions "640x400" 1-bit (and 320x200). Many
         | games and art and didn't support that showed up garbled.
         | 
         | Then I got hold of Deluxe Paint that would load pictures in
         | color and dither them with an algo called Floyd Steinberg. And
         | the pictures that I saw on my friends VGA monitors suddenly
         | looked beautiful on my monochrome screen.
         | 
         | See examples https://surma.dev/things/ditherpunk/
         | 
         | Games like Monkey Island were also ditherered for monochrome
         | displays and they looked great.
        
       | kjellsbells wrote:
       | The street scene is by Gerald Vaughn Clement, the inventor of
       | MacGrid, a drawing program that used a sort of plastic grid to
       | perform high detail drawing and digitization.
       | 
       | https://macintoshgarden.org/apps/macgrid
       | 
       | Incidentially /r/VintagePixelArt often has discussions about this
       | sort of thing.
        
       | Max-q wrote:
       | The Amiga is quite another beast, especially showing photos in
       | HAM mode, giving 4096 colors.
        
       | drewcoo wrote:
       | Meh. It was nothing compared with PLATO systems at the
       | university. And the CAD setups dad and his engineering team used
       | for work then (Silicon Graphics?) also looked much better.
       | 
       | So maybe for some values of "great." Maybe.
        
       | cjcenizal wrote:
       | I was born in '83 and a good chunk of my formative years were
       | spent imagining the world through dithered pixels -- playing
       | games, creating art, writing, and exploring. Seeing these images
       | evokes a rush of nostalgia, simply because they're dithered.
        
       | rswail wrote:
       | "Design is about constraints" - Charles Eames
       | 
       | The constraints of the original Mac and MacPaint have resulted in
       | an art form specific to the time and place.
        
       | layer8 wrote:
       | These really need to be viewed with a CRT renderer IMO, as well
       | as the Amiga art mentioned in this thread. The hard square pixels
       | on the website aren't quite representative of what these looked
       | like on a contemporary monitor.
        
         | leoc wrote:
         | Up to a point, but the early Macintosh displays were quite
         | crisp and clinical--certainly compared to something like a
         | consumer NTSC or PAL CRT TV--as befitted a platform which was
         | very focussed on WYSIWYG paper-document editing.
        
           | card_zero wrote:
           | Some of them (such as the street scene) wouldn't fit on the
           | monitor and presumably were intended to be printed for
           | viewing.
        
       | vman81 wrote:
       | Reminds me of the youtube video where Ahoy recreates one of the
       | classic 4 Byte images from the 80's 4-Byte Burger
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4EFkspO5p4
        
       | ekunazanu wrote:
       | For me, there's a certain aesthetic to 1-bit bayer-dithered
       | images, as well as images with visibly big coloured-halftone-
       | dots, that makes it feel both retro and modern at the same time.
       | I want to call it neo-retro, but I feel like that term already
       | exists.
        
       | cubefox wrote:
       | That street scene is some of the best pixel art I have ever seen.
       | 
       | https://blog.decryption.net.au/images/macpaint/lesson3d.png
        
       | marhee wrote:
       | If you enjoy this art-style, definitely check out the game Return
       | to the Obra Dinn.
        
         | Eric_WVGG wrote:
         | There's a ditherpunk artist in Moscow named Uno Morales that
         | I'm quite fond of: https://unomoralez.com/
        
       | aresant wrote:
       | Can't believe this doesn't include our friend Pinot who is still
       | churning out unreal MacPaint pixel art
       | 
       | https://www.cultofmac.com/news/pinot-w-ichwandardi-flatiron-...
        
       | hcarvalhoalves wrote:
       | These seem to be made by artists trained on traditional drawing.
       | All drawings show knowledge of cross-hatching or pointillism,
       | correct use of values, perspective, and so on. That's why it
       | looks great today, these qualities are independent of how
       | advanced the digital medium of the time was.
        
         | akie wrote:
         | Look at this one for example - my mind is blown:
         | https://blog.decryption.net.au/images/macpaint/lesson3d.png
         | 
         | How do you even do that? Zoomed out it looks like a nearly
         | photorealistic street scene, zoomed in I just see seemingly
         | meaningless patterns of black and white. Magic. Unbelievable.
        
           | bigyabai wrote:
           | > How do you even do that?
           | 
           | Dithering, for one. The parent also suggests pointillism,
           | which was also a popular modern art technique for making
           | detailed portraits using small, low-detail components.
        
       | time0ut wrote:
       | This is amazing. Thank you for sharing!
       | 
       | What a nostalgia trip. Reminds me of sitting in the computer lab
       | in the library in my elementary school in 1990. Some days, I'd
       | give anything to go back.
        
       | tombert wrote:
       | Love the old monochrome Mac game aesthetic. I played a lot of the
       | original MacVenture Deja Vu game as a kid, and always thought
       | that the art had a cool look to it, and as an adult I'm amazed at
       | what they pulled off, despite the limitations.
        
       | sircastor wrote:
       | One of the mild tragedies of my youth is that when we switched
       | from the Macintosh SE/30 to the IIci, my MacPaint art didn't make
       | the transition. My dad told me that the files were incompatible.
       | I don't think that's actually true, but I didn't know enough at
       | that age to be able to question it or even explore it. There are
       | many many creations throughout first half of my life that are
       | lost for a lack of storage space at the time.
       | 
       | As an aside: Do your best to capture at least something in a way
       | that will be preserved.
        
         | xattt wrote:
         | Good thing I backed up my precious memories to Jaz cartridges.
        
       | andai wrote:
       | When I was a kid, I used to think that better tools would
       | automatically make me good at art.
       | 
       | For example, I was making animations with EasyToon, and I only
       | had a mouse, while the really good animators were using graphics
       | tablets.
       | 
       | Clearly, if I bought a tablet, my own animation skills would
       | drastically improve!
       | 
       | I guess I still kinda believe that, when I look at how fancy some
       | of the newer computers are. If only I had one of those, my
       | creativity would be unlimited!
       | 
       | The funny thing is that my fallacy sorta came true: my friend was
       | showing me some insane stuff he rendered on his 5080 with a
       | custom Stable Diffusion...
        
         | egypturnash wrote:
         | Better tools won't make you better, but they'll get in the way
         | less, would you rather draw with a pencil or a bar of soap? A
         | mouse is more like the latter than the former.
        
         | iLoveOncall wrote:
         | Okay but you will definitely be able to make better art with a
         | graphical tablet. It's near impossible to have enough precision
         | to draw with a mouse, regardless of practice or skill.
        
       | _kidlike wrote:
       | People that can do these drawings would make awesome art for
       | play.date games!!!
        
       | brap wrote:
       | It looks great _today_ , but if you asked someone in the 90s or
       | even 00s they'd probably say it looks like ass. Or, like, totally
       | wack, dude.
       | 
       | We like it _today_ because of the nostalgia /retro factor.
        
         | oasisbob wrote:
         | I dunno - artwork in this style did pretty good on ffffound
         | back in the day. That's at least as early as 2007. I'm sure you
         | could go back further in other forums and find appreciation for
         | the same reason people like it here.
         | 
         | To contrast, a lot of content from clip-art collections at the
         | time looked awful then and didn't age well at all.
        
       | whiteboardr wrote:
       | Love the "apple periferals" truck!
        
       | dietrichepp wrote:
       | Taking this moment to promote 1-bit art! I run a couple accounts
       | which promote 1-bit art and I'm trying to figure out how to
       | expand what artwork is included. These are just personal accounts
       | that retweet art from 1-bit artists on BlueSky and Twitter.
       | 
       | https://bsky.app/profile/1bitdreams.bsky.social
       | 
       | https://x.com/1BitDreams
        
       | neel-openai wrote:
       | this is awesome!
        
       | asveikau wrote:
       | I remember when this style was current, though some of these
       | images are slightly older than I am.
       | 
       | Also, "a door somewhere" reminds me of old album covers. For
       | whatever reason I'm thinking of Lou Reed's "take no prisoners".
        
       | encyclic wrote:
       | Bert Monroy (the 2nd image, of an alleyway) is still quite active
       | as a digital artist: https://www.bertmonroy.com
        
       | jamesgill wrote:
       | I suppose it's just nostalgia, but I get such a warm fuzzy
       | feeling just seeing this art from the 80s. I can remember using
       | tools like MacPaint. It was just such a fun time to be around
       | computers.
        
       | gnarbarian wrote:
       | Constraints of the medium enhance artwork.
        
       | gnarbarian wrote:
       | Constraints of the medium enhance the artwork.
        
       | cpach wrote:
       | I wonder if the face icons where intended for the X-Face header.
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-Face
        
       | decryption wrote:
       | Did not expect this post to get so popular - I added a bunch more
       | images I found I was saving for a second post on a rainy day, so
       | go back and reload the page for more 1-bit pixel art goodies :-)
        
       | BaculumMeumEst wrote:
       | Why did Denis have to fuck up Jimi's headstock like that
        
       | WoodenChair wrote:
       | If you want to make MacPaint drawings that incorporate your
       | modern photos then I make a program for that. Retro Dither on the
       | Mac App Store dithers and exports photos to MacPaint (wrapped in
       | MacBinary for transport):
       | 
       | https://oaksnow.com/retrodither/
       | 
       | There's also a chapter in my new book explaining how to write the
       | same program in Python including Atkinson dithering, the MacPaint
       | file format and MacBinary. You can get the code for free and do
       | the conversions yourself without Retro Dither here:
       | 
       | https://github.com/davecom/ComputerScienceFromScratch
       | 
       | The book is here:
       | 
       | https://nostarch.com/computer-science-from-scratch
        
       | ltbarcly3 wrote:
       | Not really?
        
       | h8ngryDev wrote:
       | That hendrix one goes unfathomably hard. crazy how we took art
       | like this for granted back then.
        
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