[HN Gopher] Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses
___________________________________________________________________
Overtourism in Japan, and how it hurts small businesses
Author : speckx
Score : 180 points
Date : 2025-07-11 13:07 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (craigmod.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (craigmod.com)
| tonyhart7 wrote:
| they suffering from success
| 4fterd4rk wrote:
| It's like The Bear. Ohhhhh no I've opened a restaurant and now
| there are customers aaaaahhhhh this is horrible ahhhhhhhh
| FirmwareBurner wrote:
| Anyone who's ever worked in customer support will tell you that
| dealing with customer regularly sucks balls, even worse if
| they're foreign and don't know the local language, customs and
| etiquette so they annoy you and your local patrons while
| thinking they're entitled to because "we spend money here and
| support your economy", or even more worse if they're foreign
| and also intoxicated or acting up for the camera (social media
| streamers).
|
| Hospitality is already a low margin business, so if you're a
| small business owner and need to deal with the customers
| yourself instead of via hired work, why would you want that
| extra hassle of dealing with annoying foreigners unless it's
| purely for milking them dry with huge markups for it to be
| worth it?
| anonzzzies wrote:
| I am in Spain (where people, imho wrongfully, think tourism
| is ruining everything) and I dont see the issue; my wife and
| myself make enough in the summer to not have anything to do
| the rest of the year. I have IT businesses which I scale back
| to run the pub in summer for 3 month. I don't really care
| about whatever they do as long as it is not fighting: the
| more drunk and loud they are, especially guys with girls, the
| more they will just basically order anything of whatever
| price. And many of them. And yeah, some drinks and food
| locals would never ever buy so we mark them up 10x. Do not
| see an issue with that: it is not hidden and locals dont pay
| less for the same product: it is on the menu, everyone can
| see it, it's just not popular while for some groups of
| foreigners it's the first they ask. Welcome please!
| sorcerer-mar wrote:
| Based on your other comment where you say "innit," I
| suspect you're not Spanish?
|
| It sounds like you're a Brit who opened a pub in Spain for
| other Brits to get sloshed at. Is this wrong?
| jerlam wrote:
| My impression of these Japanese small businesses is that
| many are run purely as lifestyle businesses and making more
| money isn't the point. They're run for the owners to feel a
| sense of accomplishment and ownership and give something
| back to the community. There is no desire to close the
| business and go on vacation, especially if it means being
| very aggravated when they are opened.
| ozim wrote:
| This sounds like best description.
|
| I think it is hard to explain to HN crowd whose most
| would like to run business to make most money possible in
| shortest time period and would not understand running
| business that just pays its bills and gets owner ramen
| profitable unless it is just a point on path to becoming
| unicorn.
| luckylion wrote:
| Which is why it's better to not have any customers. And not
| make any money, because dealing with taxes sucks balls, too.
| Best, really, is not to be alive, because otherwise you'll
| need to deal with illness, hunger, sadness and stuff.
| sunaookami wrote:
| Way to miss the point. Most foreigners in other countries can't
| behave.
| anonzzzies wrote:
| Well it is a job innit? Most my well paid CTOs and tech
| contacts I meet cannot behave either. They always have to be
| rude that I am just a small fish, misspell my name _every
| time_ to be funny or lazy or whatnot etc. I don 't care, pay
| the bill within 14 days, cheers.
| sunaookami wrote:
| They don't have a problem with customers, they have a
| problem with foreign customers that often can't behave.
| Being c-suite doesn't give one a free pass to be an
| asshole. I suggest reading the source that the linked post
| is an answer to:
| https://nymag.com/intelligencer/article/kyoto-japan-
| tourism-...
| anonzzzies wrote:
| I have issues with them too (rowdy pub clients and rude c
| suites), but I fear, after 5 decades alternating in both
| these jobs, I cannot avoid them, so, I learn to play them
| and make more money than they came in to spend.
| guywithahat wrote:
| Yeah that was sort of the vibe I got too. I understand the
| point of the article, that regular customers are a nicer
| customer base than tourists, but it sort of has a pretentious
| "most tourists aren't worth of Japan" hypothesis to the article
| which feels silly once you think about it in a broader,
| economic scope
| vachina wrote:
| I guess it depends on the local culture. Japanese
| relationships are probably a lot less transactional but more
| "knowing your customers".
| pj_mukh wrote:
| Yea this was major de-growther vibes to me. A couple of small
| businesses getting swamped just means you don't have enough
| small businesses. It's true that _generally_ there aren 't
| enough small businesses.
|
| I'd like our productivity gains to free up people to pursue
| their weird jazz-coffee bar fantasies and start more
| businesses. That's a better world to me than the the one OP is
| trying to get us to retreat to.
|
| There's lots of terrible things about social media but its
| ability to spread the wealth of attention to small businesses
| is probably the best thing about it.
|
| Bad tourists? FINE THEM. I realize the Japanese don't like to
| see their relationships as transactional, but they have
| foreigners there and managing their behavior via transactions
| is totally fair to me.
|
| P.S: I know, I know I have recently been to Japan and seen its
| over-tourism first hand. I also don't know a country better
| equipped to get a handle on it and _gasp_ scale.
| EasyMark wrote:
| I kind of assumed "tourists are crowding me out of my
| favorite spaces so this must be true everywhere" which is a
| lot easier to assume than prove.
| vagrantJin wrote:
| Fascinating.
|
| I have no idea what the fascination with Japan, I must have
| missed something.
| sorcerer-mar wrote:
| Nah you're probably just cooler than everyone else
| onlypassingthru wrote:
| A beautiful set of volcanic islands with _extremely_ polite
| natives, rich in art, culture and history and practically zero
| crime is not for everyone.
| missedthecue wrote:
| Very successful cultural exports in the 1980s, 90s, and early
| 2000s. Now the kids who grew up in that era are young adults
| and have some money.
|
| There are many low(ish) crime, polite, picturesque
| destinations, rich in art, culture, and history, but Kazakhstan
| never exported anime.
| onlypassingthru wrote:
| It's no anime, but who doesn't think of Kazakhstan every time
| they bite an apple?
| Aloisius wrote:
| I doubt most people even know why one might think about
| Kazakhstan when biting into an apple.
| CalRobert wrote:
| Maybe travel is just too cheap and easy? I like the
| democratisation of globe trotting that has happened but it
| certainly has had negative consequences
| beezlewax wrote:
| Yes! Let's make it only for the rich or better yet, why not
| just the oligarchs?
| ecshafer wrote:
| Is the pollution and co2 production worth it so more people
| can take photos in front of things? Maybe it is, maybe it
| isnt.
| graemep wrote:
| > Is the pollution and co2 production worth it so more
| people can take photos in front of things?
|
| Taking photos in front of things is not, but that is not
| the only reason people travel.
| simgt wrote:
| Or also for the "middle" class but as an expensive treat that
| would have been chosen over something else, like it used to
| be. After all the environmental cost of a 20EUR EasyJet
| ticket isn't nothing.
| CalRobert wrote:
| That's a fair counter point, but I'm just saying that it did
| have negative consequences and we might want to consider it.
| It's kinda crazy you can sometimes fly 6000 km for less than
| a few round trip train tickets between London and Edinburgh.
|
| I wonder if Americans' pitifully short vacation allowance
| paired with high incomes is an issue. If you're going to
| Japan for a week you're likely to only hit a few top
| attractions, I imagine.
| bananalychee wrote:
| Perhaps it would help to frame the problem as domestic
| travel being too expensive as opposed to international
| travel being too cheap. By the way, overtourism is not a
| "there's too many Americans/Europeans who can afford
| vacations" problem, most tourists in Japan are from nearby
| East Asian countries. In fact, the share of tourists to
| Japan who come from the US and Europe has declined in
| recent years.
| anovikov wrote:
| Well, problem here is that airlines are under control of
| national regulatory agencies while flying internationally.
| Sure, a mandate of say, drastically improving comfort levels
| by making something like an old-style business class seat
| (38" pitch recliner, 4 abreast in a narrowbody) the absolute
| allowed minimum - could work: it will make passengers
| happier, reduce air rage, and lift prices to the level that
| somewhat curbs overtourism. But it's impossible to introduce
| because if one nation does so it will simply make their
| airlines uncompetitive abroad.
| CalRobert wrote:
| Taxing aviation fuel seems like a reasonable start.
| anovikov wrote:
| Same problem here. "Just give airlines of nations that
| don't tax fuel, a boost at the expense of your own ones".
| armada651 wrote:
| How far do you want to take that? The oligarchs can fly back
| and forth to Japan every week, should the air fare be so
| cheap that everyone can do that?
| parpfish wrote:
| I think the more interesting story here wouldn't be the "over
| tourism" of the globally desirable internet-famous locations--
| It's all the little regional resort towns and tourism
| destinations that are now ignored.
|
| All over the US are locations that _used to_ be the place where
| a people would go for a three day weekend or summer getaway.
| But now they are ghost towns because the cost of travel and the
| algorithm have reframed travel as global and not regional.
|
| Like... Niagara Falls used to be "the" honeymoon destination
| for couples in the northeast. Now it seems like every honeymoon
| is in a beachy tropical location and the falls have been gutted
| economically
| CalRobert wrote:
| I understand this is what happened to UK beach towns when
| flying to Spain got cheap
| clait wrote:
| And quite possibly also because UK beach towns are
| generally sad and cold (except for Cornwall and Devon for
| two weeks per year), compared to Spain's? Signed, someone
| living in the UK.
| CalRobert wrote:
| No argument there!
| harimau777 wrote:
| This is something that I feel doesn't get discussed in a
| lot of these sorts of discussions (overtourism, local
| food, etc.). Reducing your carbon/social footprint by
| consuming locally is MUCH more enjoyable in some
| locations than in others.
| parpfish wrote:
| if you find your local region unenjoyable, change your
| local region
| harimau777 wrote:
| Often that's not an option. E.g. due to where family
| lives, where you can find a job, or simply not being able
| to afford to move.
| Danieru wrote:
| Your plan to address the decline in British beach towns
| is to depopulate the UK?
|
| Seems a bit extreme just to avoid a plane ride.
| parpfish wrote:
| but that's kind of the problem.
|
| people insist that they need "the BEST", so they hop on a
| plane to get the picture-perfect locale that they see
| online at the expense of hollowing out anything that is
| merely "pretty good".
| dividefuel wrote:
| Isn't this what pricing is for? The "best" places can
| raise prices because of the high demand. Then the "pretty
| good" places in comparison wind up being a good value
| option.
| harimau777 wrote:
| A lot of those tiny locations all over the US are in red
| states. Lots of people aren't going to want to go to
| locations where public infrastructure has been hollowed out
| and discrimination is legal.
| Macha wrote:
| I think the point of is that every state had its decent
| share of local tourists going to local attractions. It's
| one thing if the blue state travelers who were traveling in
| the first place are now traveling somewhere else, but it's
| also an impact that there are also less local tourists in
| these states than there have been historically, because
| even the local tourists are now traveling elsewhere.
| Der_Einzige wrote:
| Either I get "Southern Hospitality" AKA decently outwardly
| friendly people (if you're white) and people who actually
| donate to charity or I get good infrastructure and legal
| weed, but people who are anti-social and would piss on the
| homeless if it were legal.
|
| You can't win. This is why folks travel in the first place.
| DaSHacka wrote:
| > and discrimination is legal.
|
| Do you have proof of these red states re-legalizing
| discrimination, or repealing the Civil Rights Act of 1964
| (and/or Americans with Disabilities Act of 1990)?
|
| I failed to find anything about this supposed upheaval of
| established legal statute after a quick google search.
| harimau777 wrote:
| https://www.iowapublicradio.org/state-government-
| news/2025-0...
| vkou wrote:
| You're saying that large parts of red states aren't
| hostile to, say, LGBTQ people?
|
| Why do they keep electing people who are, and passing
| legislature that is, then?
| tartoran wrote:
| > All over the US are locations that used to be the place
| where a people would go for a three day weekend or summer
| getaway. But now they are ghost towns because the cost of
| travel and the algorithm have reframed travel as global and
| not regional.
|
| I find that local travelling within the US is often more
| expensive for the quality they offer and travelling outside
| the US may cost the same but give you a better experience, or
| at least novel.
| _fat_santa wrote:
| IMO it's not that travel is to cheap, it's that social media
| has created "hot spots" around the globe.
|
| Take a random example: 5 cute coffee shops around Paris, all of
| them have that Parisian vibe that tourists are looking for but
| one of them had an influencer walk in and make some content.
| Now that one shop is all over the internet and tourists are
| flocking to it, creating huge lines and overwhelming the
| business, while the other 4 shops sit at roughly the same level
| of popularity as they did before.
|
| The problem I see isn't that travel is democratized, it's that
| people are lazy at planning their trips and just go on social
| media and find these "hot spots" instead of actually doing
| their homework or heck even a little exploring around the city.
|
| And I get it, planning a trip and actually doing your homework
| is hard, it's much easier to get on TikTok and have the entire
| itinerary planned in one afternoon than spending weeks
| researching spots on your own.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| Yeah I argue with my wife about this. She lives her lists,
| and trawls her social media feeds for stuff.
|
| I prefer to have a loose agenda of which neighborhoods are
| interesting, pick one and wander it for an afternoon. Odds
| are we will find lots of interesting things.
|
| We usually meet in the middle and do a mix. More and more she
| admits in retrospect to having stressed herself out with
| building and following an agenda.
| anon-3988 wrote:
| > The problem I see isn't that travel is democratized, it's
| that people are lazy at planning their trips and just go on
| social media and find these "hot spots" instead of actually
| doing their homework or heck even a little exploring around
| the city.
|
| The problem is people are shallow. People are _actively_
| seeking the queue. I know because I know people that are like
| this.
|
| They want to be part of the queue because...I am not sure
| why. To take a quick picture at a very specific angle to
| avoid the crowd? To make their followers think they are doing
| something great? To make them jealous?
|
| It is as if beauty have to be told and highlighted to them.
| They need a signboard that says "this is pretty, take a
| picture here!". They are not able to appreciate the minutiae
| of life.
|
| Of course, I am sounding mighty superior here, but I don't
| think I am wrong.
| dumbledoren wrote:
| 'Globe trotting' has been 'democraticized' only for the top
| income earners from the high-income countries. The rest of the
| world is not able to globe trot. Combined with digital
| nomadism, golden visas et al, this 'democratization' is a new
| form of colonization in which the high CoL countries' people
| can literally buy out poorer countries' most desirable regions
| or set themselves up as an aristocratic elite on top of the
| locals.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| It used to be the case, now the majority of the people in
| high-income countries and the high earners of medium-income
| countries can globe trot, it is a massive increase.
|
| As for the "colonial" aspect, Japan is not exactly a poor
| country. It is, in fact, a rather expensive destination (a
| bit less now because the Yen is cheap) and you will certainly
| not be seen as an aristocratic elite. You will be respected
| as a guest because that's how Japan works, but there is a
| line and it will become very clear if you ever attempt to
| cross it.
|
| I think that "colonial style" tourism is on the decline,
| simply because the world is developing and what used to be
| poor countries now do very well by themselves. They will
| still accept your money though.
| sherburt3 wrote:
| Yeah travel should be a privilege reserved for the ultra rich
| so the lower classes can focus on working until their body is
| used up and then they can crawl in a hole and die.
| arh5451 wrote:
| I'll agree certain locations are getting "instagram famous" and
| really ruining it for the locals, but I don't think they are
| worse off because of it. Just let people flock to the one picture
| spot, they did it before social media, and now there are just
| more of them, nothing new here.
| lbreakjai wrote:
| If anything, the tourists queuing to buy the latest novelty
| doughnut are not taking up space somewhere else.
| refactor_master wrote:
| "If you can't afford to spend a month touring Tohoku you
| shouldn't be traveling".
| johngossman wrote:
| Another is the numeric ratings on reviews on various restaurants
| and shops. The top scored places are often overwhelmed. An AirBNB
| operator (in the US) told me she much prefers one of the two
| bakeries near her, but her guests go to the other one because "it
| had a better Yelp rating." It was 4.5 vs 4.4 aka random.
| paulgerhardt wrote:
| Missed opportunity to talk about the locals creative responses to
| this.
|
| One cafe in Tokyo is asking customers to leave negative reviews
| on Google and Trip Advisor to prevent over exposure (it mostly
| works but made me curious enough to visit).
|
| Another specific $10 Michelin guide ramen restaurant only lets
| you order from a vending machine outside using a payment method
| you can't access as a foreigner (one needs a physical JCB card or
| QUICPay - EPOS/Suica/Pasmo/Cash etc wouldn't work).
|
| A matcha place I like only lets you order from the real menu
| after you've unlocked enough visits from a punch card.
|
| A resort slightly off but near the beaten path markets itself as
| an onsen but that's maybe 4% of the amenities. That said, they're
| serious about "no entry" if you have tattoos.
|
| And a few more of the seedier bars just have the (time honored)
| "no foreigners" sign out front.
| wichert wrote:
| Vending machines outside is pretty much the standard for ramen
| restaurants. Most of them will take passmo/suica, which most
| foreigners are also likely to have since it is also used for
| all public transport.
| tanjtanjtanj wrote:
| I've been to this restaurant. They take cash as payment so I
| don't think they are trying to dissuade tourists. Also, just
| a short few years ago I would say less than 10% of
| restaurants took any form of electronic payment.
| franciscop wrote:
| I've been 10 years on-and-off, and 10% sound way too low
| _if we include_ Suica/Pasmo. Credit card is another story
| and I'd agree.
| NalNezumi wrote:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/funnysigns/comments/1getgra/a_resta...
|
| Edit: The red text at the bottom says: konoRi Ben Yu gaDu
| meruFang ha, goRu Dian kudasaimase = "if you can read this
| Japanese text, please come in"
|
| Edit 2: just the original reddit post link then
| mrln wrote:
| The link is dead
| imp0cat wrote:
| It's not.
|
| However this is easily "beaten" by using circle to search
| -> translate on your smart phone.
| abcd_f wrote:
| After "beating" it with a translator, take a hint and
| don't enter still.
| DaSHacka wrote:
| Xenophobia: :(
|
| Xenophobia, Japan: :)
| bee_rider wrote:
| I guess the trick will be less effective to the extent to
| which people try to work around it. But,
|
| 1) most people wouldn't bother to translate something
| with a fake translation right above it
|
| 2) why do people want to go places they aren't welcome?
| It is good to let the locals have some things...
| Tainnor wrote:
| To be fair, that's not a very difficult sentence to read for
| someone who has studied a moderate amount of Japanese.
| Doesn't mean you could actually order food.
| Pooge wrote:
| But if you can't read Japanese, you would enter because you
| don't understand the sign in the first place...
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| > And a few more of the seedier bars just have a "no
| foreigners" sign out front.
|
| Those have existed long before tourism to Japan became common.
| Those signs were there when the vast majority of foreigners in
| Japan were English teachers and soldiers. Many tabehodai (all-
| you-can-eat) and most nomihodai (all-you-can-drink) places had
| them.
| Pooge wrote:
| > nomihodai
|
| I think this is for economic/profit reasons.
|
| I am not a strong drinker at all but I can drink 4-5 [X] sour
| but my Japanese friends were already well intoxicated with 1
| or 2 _beers_...
| freeopinion wrote:
| At 100kg, I never noticed that I ate more than my 65kg
| friends, but it still made me feel questionable at a
| tabehodai.
| VWWHFSfQ wrote:
| > no foreigners
|
| It's such a contrast to USA, where I doubt that such a thing
| would even be legal. And also the bit about no tattoos.
| That's lawsuit city.
| diggan wrote:
| > That's lawsuit city
|
| Aren't private businesses in the US allowed to deny access
| to their premises for any reasons? Seems like a weird thing
| to get sued over, I think in most places if you own the
| local, you get to decide who goes there, unless it's a
| place for government or similar.
| VWWHFSfQ wrote:
| > deny access to their premises for any reasons
|
| Definitely not. This kind of discrimination is explicitly
| prohibited by federal civil rights law (Civil Rights Act
| 1964). It protects people regardless of their national
| origin (in addition to their skin color).
| diggan wrote:
| "National origin" is what country you are born in right?
| So banning non-US residents would be OK it seems?
| HelloMcFly wrote:
| You may deny entry based on your own criteria provided
| you are not discriminating on race, color, religion,
| national origin, disability status, veteran status, age
| (more wiggle room here) or other state-specific traits
| (sex, sexual orientation, gender identity, marital
| status, etc.).
|
| I don't think there's any place in America that would be
| illegal to bar entry based on the presence of tattoos.
| keysdev wrote:
| But no shoes, no shirt, no service is quite common.
| raydev wrote:
| Sure, but you can instantly go put on some shoes and a
| shirt if necessary.
| diggan wrote:
| So it would be legal to bar non-US residents then?
| "Residency" seems different from all the criteria's you
| listed.
| BobaFloutist wrote:
| Residency inherently includes national origin, since if
| your national origin is the US you're automatically a
| resident.
| diggan wrote:
| Yeah, but the opposite isn't true, my national origin can
| be Swedish but I can reside in Spain, so banning by
| residency isn't banning by national origin, seems like a
| way to ban foreigners (non-residents).
|
| Edit: Actually wait
|
| > since if your national origin is the US you're
| automatically a resident
|
| This isn't true is it? If you're born in the US but you
| live (100% of the time) elsewhere, you're no longer a
| resident, are you?
| BobaFloutist wrote:
| Ok, but you're a citizen, which is a higher status than a
| "permanent resident."
|
| Actually, you fully _can_ discriminate for or against
| local or state residency. I think national residence
| would be harder, though to be fair you 're absolutely
| able to not hire non-residents.
|
| Frankly the biggest barrier might be that as actual
| residents would get mad if you asked for proof, and if
| you didn't test everyone it would likely be an open-and-
| shut racial (or _maybe_ national origin if you tested on
| the basis of accent) case.
| diggan wrote:
| > Ok, but you're a citizen, which is a higher status than
| a "permanent resident."
|
| That sounds like a immigration/social
| hierarchy/importance rather than something that matters
| in discrimination contexts, what exactly you mean with
| "higher status"?
|
| If a bar bans non-US residents, if a US-citizen+Spanish-
| residency tries to enter, then it shouldn't matter if
| they're US citizens or not, because the criteria is
| residency, not citizenship. Or is there like a
| priority/order for OK/not OK discrimination criteria?
| BobaFloutist wrote:
| Now that I think about it a better quibble is that you
| probably can't get around anti-discrimination laws by
| posting a sign that says "No Canadians or Americans that
| have spent too long in Canada."
| diggan wrote:
| As I understand it, it'd be illegal even with just "No
| Canadians" because that's a "national origin" right?
| Instead you'd post "No Canadian Residents" and you'd be
| in the clear :)
| michaelt wrote:
| Sometimes I believe one can also face legal trouble for
| unreasonably banning things strongly correlated with a
| protected characteristic.
|
| I can't sidestep gender discrimination law by refusing to
| hire people with long hair, unless the job is something
| like "wig model" or "Jeff bezos impersonator" where being
| bald is a bona fide occupational qualification.
| deaddodo wrote:
| You can deny entry on a non-discriminatory basis. E.g., a
| bar can kick out an individual Black American for being a
| nuisance or otherwise troublesome, they can't kick out a
| black guy for wearing blue (unless it's a blanket ban and
| reasonable, such as it being a theme bar) or being black.
|
| This is why the signs are always phrased as "we reserve
| the right to refuse service to any _one_ /any _person_ ".
|
| As with most things though, this is just the minimum
| federal regulation and states will handle how far they
| take it differently. There are jurisdictions that
| wouldn't touch a "no tattoos" policy with a ten-foot pole
| at the risk of a lawsuit. While there are others that are
| more lax.
| bitwize wrote:
| Among Japanese, tattoos are almost exclusively worn by
| yakuza members. The shop owners don't want any trouble or
| criminal activity on their premises.
| zeroonetwothree wrote:
| Denying to an individual for any reason is ok but excluding
| entire groups is generally frowned upon or straight up
| illegal.
| TimorousBestie wrote:
| > It's such a contrast to USA, where I doubt that such a
| thing would even be legal.
|
| The sign itself is probably protected speech.
|
| As for the policy, it is probably also legal here. Private
| businesses have broad rights to refuse individual customers
| without stating a reason.
|
| Fabricating a legitimate business reason to deny service to
| a particular group of customers is usually trivial, as
| well. Proving it was fabricated for discriminatory reasons
| can be difficult.
| autobodie wrote:
| >without stating a reason
|
| That part is key. If they do state a reason, it could
| become a civil rights issue. The sign alone might not be
| enough to make a case, but it's a very good start.
| deaddodo wrote:
| > Private businesses have broad rights to refuse
| individual customers without stating a reason.
|
| They don't have to state a reason. The entire foundation
| of the common law system is to have a court decide
| intent; not be technically bound by your words.
|
| It would only take showing a continued behavior of
| denying people in a discriminatory manner (e.g. 10% of
| your visitors are foreigners, but 95% of the people
| barred entry are in that group) to fine/sanction/shut
| down the business.
| TimorousBestie wrote:
| > They don't have to state a reason. The entire
| foundation of the common law system is to have a court
| decide intent; not be technically bound by your words.
|
| Yes, I agree. It becomes _more difficult_ to infer intent
| without a stated reason.
|
| Practically speaking, I think most civil rights lawsuits
| that are decided in the plaintiff's favor are very, very
| explicit cases of discrimination. Someone was called a
| slur, someone was refused service violently, someone had
| racist iconography scrawled on their property. Yes, fines
| and sanctions then. Well, sometimes.
|
| The ones who are clever about it never get to that stage.
| They don't put up a sign saying "no foreigners," they put
| up a sign saying "we speak english here," "proud to be an
| american," and etc. Confederate flags, military
| paraphernalia, the usual soft threats against the other.
|
| Foreigners in particular are going to find it very
| difficult to interact with our justice system. A civil
| rights case that goes to trial is going to take much
| longer than the typical tourist visa allows. It's going
| to be prohibitively expensive for the typical tourist to
| procure the services of a skilled lawyer.
| deaddodo wrote:
| > The ones who are clever about it never get to that
| stage. They don't put up a sign saying "no foreigners,"
| they put up a sign saying "we speak english here," "proud
| to be an american," and etc. Confederate flags, military
| paraphernalia, the usual soft threats against the other.
|
| These are going to be in places that are not heavily
| touristed even by _other_ Americans. You 're talking
| about places in the deep south; or in some survivalist
| community in Wyoming/Montana/etc. Not in Miami, Chicago,
| Los Angeles, etc.
|
| So there's no one to complain. If someone did, they would
| most certainly face some legislative action.
|
| > Foreigners in particular are going to find it very
| difficult to interact with our justice system. A civil
| rights case that goes to trial is going to take much
| longer than the typical tourist visa allows. It's going
| to be prohibitively expensive for the typical tourist to
| procure the services of a skilled lawyer.
|
| There's two cases where foreigners would complain:
|
| A) they are on a visa, in which case they have the
| capability and are available to do so (and tend to be a
| pretty outspoken group considering the trouble they went
| through to get the visa in the first place).
|
| B) they are visiting friends/family, in which case the
| friends/family will complain due to discrimination their
| loved ones faced.
|
| You're using extreme examples to prove it _could_ happen,
| because you 're being disingenuous (imo). No one is
| doubting it _could_ happen, racist /exclusionist stuff
| happens all the time. The people in this thread are
| saying it's not a norm, _and_ (more importantly) that it
| 's not legal. It's quite easy to prove a trend of
| discrimination, _especially_ if your bar is clad in known
| racist /nationalist-adjacent paraphernalia.
|
| Or, in other words, just ask yourself this: there are
| racists and nationalists in LA, SF, Denver, NY, Miami,
| Seattle, Dallas, etc....so, if it's so easy to skirt the
| legislation, why do we not find these sorts of bars in
| places that people actually go to versus insular
| communities where people are unlikely to raise a fuss?
| TimorousBestie wrote:
| > These are going to be in places that are not heavily
| touristed even by other Americans. You're talking about
| places in the deep south; or in some survivalist
| community in Wyoming/Montana/etc. Not in Miami, Chicago,
| Los Angeles, etc.
|
| It is really hard to dispute the myth that "America" only
| consists of a few large cities, a la Death Stranding.
| Unfortunately, the whole country is not as enlightened as
| LA, SF, and NYC.
|
| International tourism is also not limited to these
| cities. NPS alone attracts millions each year. Although,
| I understand the fees for foreign visitors is increasing
| soon.
| Aloisius wrote:
| Individuals don't have to file a lawsuit for
| discrimination by public accommodations nor do they need
| to stick around for a trial.
|
| All one does is file a complaint with the Justice
| department (or a local states'). The Justice department
| is who investigates and sues.
| Aloisius wrote:
| No. It is most definitely illegal here. It would violate
| Title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. 42 U.S. Code SS
| 2000a:
|
| >(a) All persons shall be entitled to the full and equal
| enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges,
| advantages, and accommodations of any place of public
| accommodation, as defined in this section, without
| discrimination on the ground of race, color, religion, or
| national origin.
|
| Restaurants are considered public accommodation under 42
| U.S. Code SS 2000a (b)(2).
|
| Could a business lie about why they're discriminating?
| Yes, but that wouldn't be possible with a sign saying "No
| foreigners" and eventually, someone will file a title II
| complaint.
|
| https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/42/2000a
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| You have to protect your culture. USA has a 250 year
| history while Japan has 10x of that.
| sosborn wrote:
| Those signs have nothing to do with protecting culture.
| Most of the time, they are simply a naive defense against
| dealing with a population often doesn't speak Japanese
| very well.
| gruez wrote:
| >USA has a 250 year history while Japan has 10x of that.
|
| Is that supposed to imply that Japan has more culture, or
| that it needs more protection because it's 10x longer?
| Even if Japanese culture is 10x longer than American
| culture, it doesn't necessarily follow that there's less
| of it. Pop music and hollywood music might not be
| considered "culture" by snobs, but they're still culture,
| and arguably more plentiful and pervasive than Japanese
| culture.
| lofaszvanitt wrote:
| If you are an outsider, you should adhere to that
| country's rules. Why are you going to a foreign country?
| Are you an invasive species or an inquisitive bumblebee?
| vehemenz wrote:
| This is nonsense at worst and incoherent at best. I
| really don't even know where to begin, but I'd suggest a
| history book.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| Indeed, and as I frequently say.. those who thinks US is
| the most racist country in the world should visit 5-10
| other countries and report back.
| tayo42 wrote:
| The US is building modern day concentration camps for
| immigrants. Maybe the country isnt actively killing the
| out groups right now like a handful of other countries
| but I'd say the racism is extreme and up there.
| missedthecue wrote:
| But the immigrants aren't racial or ethnic outgroups per
| se. Many are incidentally Latino, yes, but so is the
| current Secretary of State.
| krapp wrote:
| It isn't incidental. Trump's entire political legacy has
| been marked by his bigotry against people from, as he
| called them, "shithole countries," and remember how badly
| wanted to wall off Mexico, but not Canada. I believe this
| is explicitly an attempt to purge the US of its nonwhite
| immigrant population, possibly out of fear of "white
| replacement" (which Trump has alluded to believing more
| than once.)
|
| Not to Godwin (but kind of to Godwin,) the Nazis put
| plenty of non-Jews into camps, and some Jews even
| collaborated with Nazi Germany. That doesn't mean the
| number of Jews persecuted by the Nazis was _incidental._
| missedthecue wrote:
| My point is that if a bunch of Latino Americans wanted to
| wall off Mexico, that would be many things, but it would
| not be racism against a racial outgroup. According to The
| Hill, 43% of Central Americans support the border wall.
| Not a majority, but far too statistically significant to
| describe as racism against an outgroup.
|
| Not trying to get into US politics on HN, but I think my
| point is clear when it comes to comparing this American
| situation to the views of non-ethnics in foreign
| cultures, which was the original OPs argument.
| tastyface wrote:
| They certainly use language suggesting that all Latinos
| are illegal: https://medium.com/the-antagonist-
| magazine/debunking-the-65-...
| anigbrowl wrote:
| And yet the 'White House border czar', Tom Homan, was on
| Fox News earlier today saying that physical appearance is
| sufficient grounds for detention, and that probable cause
| is not required.
| https://x.com/atrupar/status/1943671875961287024
| SoftTalker wrote:
| "Has tattoos" is not a protected class. You're free to ban
| tattooed people from your place of business if you like.
| anigbrowl wrote:
| You could totally bar people with tattoos from your
| business in teh USA. You'd be unpopular given their
| prevalence, but you would be on oslid legal ground.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| Snack bars (the seedier bars you talk about) have always had a
| policy of no foreigners. In fact, I think it's just in the
| standard snacks bar sign template.
| timr wrote:
| I have been to many snack bars. They're everywhere, they're
| not "seedy", and nearly all of them are open to anyone.
| NalNezumi wrote:
| Many places also (used to) have sign saying Yi Jian
| sanokotowari which roughly translate to "first time visitor
| not allowed". A little bit up to interpretation but usually
| in the scope of:
|
| * store only for patrons, but welcome if you come with
| patron.
|
| * anyone welcome but if you're only coming once (tourist
| etc), please don't (destroy the vibe).
|
| For obvious reasons foreign tourist couldn't get this so many
| places just put up a "no foreigner" sign. You'll still see
| _local_ foreigner sometimes hang around those places though
| GolDDranks wrote:
| I've been to many snack bars, and once in my almost ten years
| in Japan, I found one that didn't welcome foreigners.
| Klonoar wrote:
| This is false, IME. If you spent enough time to learn how to
| navigate it, you could get in to most of them. I'm not even
| fluent and it really wasn't a big deal.
|
| I did this living there from ~2009 - ~2016. Wasn't an issue
| in my visits afterwards either, at least up until the COVID
| years.
|
| I will say that when I go back each year (1x/2x per) _post
| COVID_ , I've seen more of them trying to be firm on it
| though - presumably due to the tourism influx.
| WangComputers wrote:
| "they're serious about "no entry" if you have tattoos"
|
| That's nothing unusual in Japan, even Japanese people in Japan
| can't join a gym or get car insurance if they've got tattoos.
| They're serious about that stuff for a reason.
| AnotherGoodName wrote:
| I suspect a blind eye would be turned if it's pretty
| obviously not a yakuza tattoo right?
| imp0cat wrote:
| I wouldn't think so. It seemed to me that most places were
| quite strict about it.
| dagw wrote:
| It's fairly unusual to strictly enforce it on foreigners.
| Every place I've been with a no tattoos policy generally
| overlook tourists with smaller unassuming tattoos.
| Jcampuzano2 wrote:
| I went to Japan for about a month as someone with tattoos.
| I didn't have many issues out and about but I was told in
| the gym and I could not have them showing.
|
| I just wore sleeves over them and although less comfortable
| than my normal gym attire it was fine.
|
| I was denied access to an Onsen because I honestly forgot
| about the tattoo thing for a while but was able to find one
| that was tattoo friendly. They were not mean or anything
| they just informed me it was policy. Completely
| understandable given the history.
|
| My tattoos are very noticeable though. Like you would never
| miss large forearm tattoos, so it's probably hard for them
| to overlook for them and let it slide even for a foreigner
| antonkochubey wrote:
| >or get car insurance
|
| eh? there's a stripping-down room in insurance offices?
|
| do you have to submit nudes if you're buying insurance
| online?
| guardiangod wrote:
| I was in a Shikoku hotel's public bath a couple month ago,
| and a guy with full on Yakuza back (and arms) tattoo came in
| to shower. No one batted an eye. Granted no staff was
| present, so no one enforced the rule. I also did not try to
| get a glimpse of his pinkies.
| timr wrote:
| I don't know about the Ramen place (I can't believe that they
| wouldn't take cash?), but I agree with you that more places are
| doing this kind of "two markets" stuff -- it's even becoming
| official, in that now there's officially sanctioned "foreigner
| pricing" for certain temples, shrines, and parks. There's also
| Google Maps and Yelp vs. Japan's local version (pretty much any
| review on the former two are useless, and hopelessly biased by
| clueless tourists).
|
| I'm of mixed minds. I really miss the days when it was possible
| to be welcomed pretty much anywhere as a foreigner and have
| almost universal expectations of high quality, scam-free
| experiences, but those days are pretty much gone now.
| Foreigners are lining up for mediocre tourist traps because of
| something they saw on TikTok or Instagram, and there are
| business people who are willing to take advantage of that fact.
|
| It's also really difficult to serve your local clientele when
| tourists "discover" your establishment. I have a friend with a
| restaurant that has become known amongst foreign tourists, and
| it's nearly impossible for the locals in the neighborhood to
| visit now. I was talking about it with him a month or so back,
| and while he seemed happy to have the money -- and therefore
| unwilling to change the situation -- he also interacted with
| the tourists in a completely different way. He had a back-
| channel reservation mechanism for locals and people he knows,
| but it still requires advance planning for a place that used to
| be a casual, walk-in experience.
| amluto wrote:
| > I really miss the days when it was possible to be welcomed
| pretty much anywhere as a foreigner and have almost universal
| expectations of high quality, scam-free experiences
|
| How long ago was that? It was certainly true in fairly large
| portions of the world, but there are plenty of places where,
| for as long as I can remember, you could pretty much expect
| to be scammed regularly. In many cases those scams would be
| for trivial (to visitors from wealthy countries) amounts of
| money, but it nonetheless often seemed like a large fraction
| of local economies would be driven by scamming tourists.
|
| I think that the real recent change is that the "beaten path"
| of touristy areas has gotten larger.
| imp0cat wrote:
| In Japan? A few years ago the experience was completely
| different.
| amluto wrote:
| Not Japan. Plenty of other countries, though.
| timr wrote:
| > How long ago was that? It was certainly true in fairly
| large portions of the world, but there are plenty of places
| where, for as long as I can remember, you could pretty much
| expect to be scammed regularly.
|
| To be clear: "scamming" is still thankfully uncommon in
| Japan. Getting ripped off in the tourist-trap way is the
| new development.
|
| I don't know when it started exactly, but I lived there
| around a decade ago and it was rare then. The prices around
| tourist spots would always be elevated and world heritage
| sites often had a line of crappy souvenir shops, but you
| didn't see the same kind of fake "wagyu" and the like that
| you see everywhere today.
| jansan wrote:
| There were catch bars in the 90s, and Roppongi has been
| full of assholes as long as I can remember (anyone
| remember Tokyo Gas Panic?). I have not been to Japan for
| more than ten years so I do not know how bad it is, but
| my point is that even in the good old days you could get
| ripped off as a gullible foreigner (usually by other
| foreigners).
| timr wrote:
| Yes, agreed. I'm not talking about places like Roppongi
| or the sketchier parts of Shinjuku and Shibuya,
| Dotonbori, Umeda, etc., which have always been red light
| districts.
|
| I'm talking about a more pedestrian type of ripoff, which
| is simply to overcharge and underdeliver - think of $40
| for tough meat, labeled "Kobe beef", and you'll get the
| idea. It's always been around, but far more prevalent
| now.
| monetus wrote:
| It can be pretty shocking seeing all the shell games
| immediately underneath the Eiffel tower, to your point.
| decimalenough wrote:
| Post Olympics, the Eiffel Tower is now surrounded by a
| tall fence and requires passing through airport style
| security to get in. Bit of a hassle, but no shell games
| in sight.
| esperent wrote:
| > it still requires advance planning for a place that used to
| be a casual, walk-in experience
|
| So, much like every restaurant that becomes popular, anywhere
| in the world?
| timr wrote:
| > So, much like every restaurant that becomes popular,
| anywhere in the world?
|
| No, but thanks for the spot-on imitation of an entitled
| foreign visitor. The insinuation that somehow it's the
| _local people 's fault_ that they don't want their quaint
| neighborhood restaurants to become McDonald's is indeed
| part of the problem.
|
| Many restaurants in Japan (my friend's included) are quite
| obviously one-man, standing-room only operations. They
| weren't designed or intended to accommodate big groups of
| people, pulling huge rolling suitcases, ordering off menu,
| getting offended when the proprietor doesn't offer
| vegan/gluten free/snowflake options, and tons of other
| nonsense that goes along with serving tourist hordes.
|
| I realize that you can't un-make the baby, and that Japan's
| government _asked_ for this, but a lot of locals are still
| upset about this kind of stuff and I have empathy. Tourism
| inevitably turns anything authentic into a high-volume,
| Epcot-center version of itself. That might be fine if you
| 're visiting, but it _sucks_ if you live there.
| rwmj wrote:
| I wonder what the end state is here. Will there be a
| backlash (or more of a backlash, as there's a bit of one
| already) against the Japanese government's policy?
| Something worse?
| biztos wrote:
| Indeed, I've seen a lot of "visit Japan" ads lately.
|
| But the thing I worry about, having never been there, is
| that I might get some good recommendations for out-of-
| the-way spots where there would be few if any other
| tourists, and take the time to go find them, only to be
| denied entry because I'm a foreigner.
| timr wrote:
| > But the thing I worry about, having never been there,
| is that I might get some good recommendations for out-of-
| the-way spots where there would be few if any other
| tourists, and take the time to go find them, only to be
| denied entry because I'm a foreigner.
|
| Yep, that's the part I hate, too. The locals put up
| completely understandable roadblocks to preserve their
| own culture, but those roadblocks end up making the whole
| situation hostile and unpleasant for anyone who is not
| known to the locals.
|
| Since you've never been, let me just say this: most
| tourists are utterly clueless, so just not being clueless
| goes far. _Blend in_ , imitate the locals' behaviors, try
| to speak the language, eat what you're given, etc., and
| you'll be fine. For now, at least, relatively few places
| ban foreigners outright.
| umanwizard wrote:
| Telling someone "just speak Japanese and blend in!" is
| sort of an absurd suggestion. That is impossible if
| you're not East Asian and even if you are, it would take
| years of study.
| BirdieNZ wrote:
| Being East Asian doesn't make you blend in (visually).
| Japanese people look different to Korean and Chinese
| people.
| decimalenough wrote:
| The three are a Venn diagram with much more overlap than
| any of the three officially pretend. A Japanese friend of
| mine passes for a (Chinese) local across China and SE
| Asia.
|
| Clothing and makeup is a better giveaway than facial
| features or skin tone, but even that is becoming harder
| with K-pop creating a pan-Asian style to aspire to.
| crab_galaxy wrote:
| I got the two fingers making an x sign a handful when I
| was in Japan. It's really not a big deal and it never
| felt malicious. You just move on, though it does kind of
| suck when you're hungry!
| lovich wrote:
| Nah, that's just discrimination. It's bad when anyone
| does it
| michaelt wrote:
| This is discrimination of the worst kind: Against me.
| Findecanor wrote:
| It shouldn't be taken personally. It just means that they
| don't speak English, don't have an English menu, and are
| not staffed enough to be able to devote the time for
| understanding you.
| strbean wrote:
| > No, but thanks for the spot-on imitation of an entitled
| foreign visitor. The insinuation that somehow it's the
| local people's fault that they don't want their quaint
| neighborhood restaurants to become McDonald's is indeed
| part of the problem.
|
| This seems a little unfair. I think the parent was
| talking more about restaurants in big cities.
|
| In Tokyo, lines down the block are extremely common, and
| the lines are primarily Japanese people, not foreigners.
| Maybe there are Japanese tourists visiting Tokyo, maybe
| they are Tokyo locals. But it happens with or without
| foreign tourism.
| cultofmetatron wrote:
| > I really miss the days when it was possible to be welcomed
| pretty much anywhere as a foreigner and have almost universal
| expectations of high quality, scam-free experiences
|
| you can still have that. I'm a fulltime traveller. the key is
| to stay in a place longer. I usually stay in a country for at
| least a month. that gives you time to meet and actually get
| to know locals. thats how you get invited to the really cool
| spots and get a view the daytripppers and resort goers don't
| get.
| ddejohn wrote:
| > you can still have that
|
| ... if you're a full-time traveler that can afford to stay
| for months at a time. For the rest (the vast majority) of
| us, the GP comment is what we get.
| IncreasePosts wrote:
| Nah, you don't have to be full time. You just need to
| figure out what to do based on not Instagram/tiktok.
|
| It also helps if you rent a car so you can get to places
| that aren't accessible to most tourists unless they put
| in a lot of effort
| timr wrote:
| Yes, I agree that it's a better way to travel if you can do
| it, but most people can't [1].
|
| That said, even for short-term tourists, Japan used to be
| kind of a miracle in terms of the quality and service you
| would get for the money. I know it sounds like hipster
| whining, but that time is in the past.
|
| [1] My snobby hot-take is that if you can't travel this way
| you shouldn't do recreational international travel at all,
| unless it's to go to a luxury hotel and sit on a beach or
| something packaged like that. But I realize that this will
| not be a popular opinion.
| impendia wrote:
| I used to live in Japan in 1999-2001, and I was just
| there again for a month this summer.
|
| Anyway, I disagree with you: Japan is still a miracle in
| terms of the quality and service you get for the money. I
| saw this many times over.
|
| Perhaps not in Kyoto, or in the most touristed areas of
| Tokyo. Or in whatever random place got featured in some
| anime, or whatnot.
|
| The article mentions Yamaguchi, Toyama, Morioka, etc.,
| and I definitely agree -- there are tons of places off
| the tourist beaten-track, and any of them is worth a
| visit.
|
| On my recent trip I was in Kobe, which unlike Yamaguchi
| etc. I expect the average HN reader has heard of. But
| even there, there was little trace of overtourism.
|
| Alex Kerr lamented all the way back in 1993 (in his book
| _Lost Japan_ ) that Kyoto had essentially lost its soul.
| And if you go to the areas most commonly seen on
| Instagram and TikTok, that's probably partially true. But
| even in Kyoto, go off the beaten path a little, and you
| will find much to delight you!
| timr wrote:
| > Anyway, I disagree with you: Japan is still a miracle
| in terms of the quality and service you get for the
| money. I saw this many times over.
|
| I assume you mean "relative to other places" here, and in
| that sense, I agree. Japan is not yet entirely Epcot
| Center.
|
| > Perhaps not in Kyoto, or in the most touristed areas of
| Tokyo. Or in whatever random place got featured in some
| anime, or whatnot.
|
| Right, exactly. Except that I'm seeing this spread like
| cancer -- which it always does. Sort of like
| gentrification, the "authenticity seeking tourist" leaves
| Senso-ji a few blocks, and then before too long
| Kappabashi is no longer a functioning street of
| restaurant supply stores (instead becoming a dead zone of
| "japanese knife" and matcha retailers), and so on.
|
| > But even in Kyoto, go off the beaten path a little, and
| you will find much to delight you
|
| Yeah, I lived in Kyoto a decade ago, and I say that to my
| Japanese friends, too. The thing is, even vs. 2-3 years
| ago, the number of those authentic places is dramatically
| fewer. People have been complaining about tourism in
| Kyoto forever, but they're also not wrong.
| the_af wrote:
| So is the advice "do not visit Japan, learn about it from
| books and the internet"? Or just pretend it doesn't
| exist? Maybe do the same with all other countries?
|
| The Japanese in turn do _a lot_ of tourism abroad, to the
| point the "Japanese tourist" is as much a stereotype as
| the American one. Should they stay put and not leave
| their home towns?
| BlarfMcFlarf wrote:
| Do what Japan desperately wants people to do, and visit
| any of the 95% of the country that isn't Tokyo, Kyoto,
| Osaka, Fuji, or Nara.
| Tainnor wrote:
| The time of the year probably matters too. I didn't find
| Japan to be terribly overcrowded when I went this
| February. Certain areas (and the minuscule Kyoto buses)
| were, but that happens in every tourist location.
|
| I also went to places like Beppu or Kagoshima where I
| barely saw any tourists.
| eska wrote:
| In Beppu you'd mostly find Korean tourists who come by
| ferry, rather than the wrecking ball tokyo-osaka-kyoto
| tourists.
| XenophileJKO wrote:
| Yes, Shikoku and Kyushu are both very pleasant from my
| experience. Shikoku felt the least visited. In Matsuyama,
| I saw only a handful of western tourists and even those
| were mostly blended families probably visiting relatives.
|
| It was really pleasant. I keep trying to move farther off
| the beaten path on each trip.
| projectazorian wrote:
| > But even in Kyoto, go off the beaten path a little, and
| you will find much to delight you!
|
| Extremely true. I just got back from Japan and I was very
| pleased by how little effort it took to get off the
| tourist trail, even in Kyoto. Of course some popular
| attractions are still worth seeing and for those,
| visiting around opening is usually enough to avoid the
| worst of the crowds. (If you're flying in from the US
| there's a good chance jet lag has you up at 5am anyway,
| so this is an effective strategy even for non-morning
| people.)
| jacobgkau wrote:
| > Perhaps not in... whatever random place got featured in
| some anime, or whatnot.
|
| When I went last year, two of the random places I went
| because they got featured in some anime were some of the
| most authentic-feeling experiences I had.
|
| One was a small town on the east coast near a beach; a
| lot of it felt like a ghost town (I barely saw any
| locals, let alone tourists). I was able to go and
| respectfully visit a really nice shrine while being able
| to keep my distance enough that I knew I wasn't bothering
| anyone. I also found a cool aquarium I didn't know was
| there, and I'm pretty sure I was the only foreigner I
| saw/heard while visiting it.
|
| The other was a less-deserted but still small area
| outside of a less popular city. There was an island I
| wanted to go onto that I couldn't, but I improvised and
| found a beautiful hike to a summit overlooking it
| instead. While I was walking up, I had at least two
| elderly folks say hello to me in Japanese, and a pair of
| young children walking with their mom say hello in
| English (way more unprompted interaction than I got just
| walking around in any of the cities, aside from employees
| advertising things).
|
| So just because a place was featured in an anime doesn't
| mean it's necessarily a tourist trap. Just don't go in
| expecting the place to be entirely defined by that (and
| it also helps if it's been at least a few years since
| said anime was popular).
| SoftTalker wrote:
| I fully agree, whirlwind "see the major tourist
| attractions" sort of travel where you visit someplace for
| a couple of days or a week is not very interesting to me.
|
| Honestly travel in general is not very interesting to me.
| It's expensive, inconvenient, commoditized, cliche. But
| especially that sort of travel.
|
| I can see taking a break to go somewhere warm if you live
| in a place with long gloomy winters. Or going somewhere
| to visit family, or to do something that just isn't
| available where you live (skiing or fishing trip or
| something like that). But going somewhere to just look
| around? Not attractive to me.
| tayo42 wrote:
| It's nice to break out of your routine and experience
| something new for a few days.
|
| Just hanging out in a walkable city for a few days is
| nice change from driving everywhere in the suburbs. I
| couldn't live in a city though.
| strbean wrote:
| Even if you're only going somewhere for a week, you don't
| have to see all the major attractions. You also don't
| have to plan every moment and research what restaurants
| to visit etc.
|
| You can set out to discover cool stuff on your own. Walk
| around a non-touristy neighborhood until you see a
| restaurant full of locals dining and eat there.
| the_af wrote:
| Cool! So when will most jobs give you month-long (or
| more) vacations so that we mortals can do "proper"
| tourism?
|
| > _But going somewhere to just look around? Not
| attractive to me_
|
| What is there in life but looking around, learning new
| things and experiencing new stuff?
| mr_toad wrote:
| You're basically saying that only extroverts are allowed
| to be tourists.
|
| Fuck that.
| the_af wrote:
| > _My snobby hot-take is that if you can 't travel this
| way you shouldn't do recreational international travel at
| all_
|
| That's a bad take, because it means if you're not rich or
| a hippie backpacker without attachments, you cannot do
| international travel.
|
| What's worse, many of these issues affect _local tourism_
| within your own country as well (ruining places for the
| locals, lots of tourist traps sprouting, etc).
|
| So effectively the advice becomes "stay at home, don't
| vacation, or if you do vacation stay at some prepackaged
| place".
|
| Which I frankly disagree with.
| throwaway3b03 wrote:
| > I can't believe that they wouldn't take cash?
|
| What's so hard to believe about that? Lots of places in the
| Netherlands don't accept cash (probably out of convenience).
| Jach wrote:
| If you know anything about Japan it's very strange that a
| place wouldn't take cash. Post-covid (and a lot of that
| thanks to Olympics preparations) a lot of places in Tokyo
| have advanced to taking things _other_ than cash.
| timr wrote:
| You're not going far enough: before Covid, finding a
| place (excluding conbini) that took a credit card was
| _rare_. Credit cards are common now, like you say, but
| nearly any business will still accept cash.
|
| I think I've encountered at most 1-2 restaurants in Japan
| that don't take cash, and none that don't at least accept
| credit cards.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| Yes as recently as 2010s Japanese travel as a westerner
| was mildly stressful managing your cash balance.
|
| Taxis, conbinis and restaurants all wanted cash.
|
| Lots of ATMs (majority even) don't take western ATM
| cards, so you need to look out for JP/7-11/Citi? ones.
|
| Delicate balance of keeping enough yen so you don't run
| out / have to go out of your way ATM hunting but also not
| head home with $100s in yen you don't need.
| bee_rider wrote:
| It is almost a paradox or something; what makes a lot of
| places _is_ the local clientele (or the long term visitors).
| Plus, the tourists won't support the business during the off
| season (although I'm not sure if Japan really has an off
| season).
| SapporoChris wrote:
| Some of the restaurants have ticket vending machines outside
| the shop. This avoids the need for a cashier inside the
| restaurant. It also mostly avoids the process of staff taking
| your order. Purchase your meal ticket from machine outside,
| hand ticket to cook as you enter, and take your seat.
|
| Most of the ticket vending machines do take cash, but if they
| wanted to eliminate tourists then that would be an easy
| change to make.
| timr wrote:
| Sure, of course. I've just never seen one that didn't take
| cash or credit card.
| me_smith wrote:
| On my last trip to Tokyo, I went to one of the Ramen
| restaurants that had a vending machine to order food. The
| machine, unfortunately, did not give us any change. I felt
| bad trying to explain to one of the employees because we
| both couldn't really understand each other. He eventually
| understood and gave us the exact change we did expect.
| After that experience, I wouldn't blame them for wanting to
| make the change and limiting tourists.
| supportengineer wrote:
| Is there any place you can go to avoid Scam culture? Anywhere
| at all? It seems pervasive.
|
| I would like to think there is somewhere in the United
| States, maybe in the Midwest, or West Virginia, there has to
| be someplace where there are decent hard-working Americans,
| who are not trying to scam each other.
| os2warpman wrote:
| >maybe in the Midwest, or West Virginia
|
| My family is from the "decent hard-working" part of mid-
| America and I am the only one without a felony so whenever
| one of my relatives dies, I get their guns. It used to be
| the crime of choice was check fraud but now it's simple
| burglary and drugs.
|
| I as a non-gang, non-dealing, tall middle aged white dude
| am safer in Baltimore than I am at the local gas station
| full of tweakers in "real" America.
|
| West Virginia has the highest, by a lot, percentage of
| people on social security disability because their state
| doesn't have good welfare benefits. All of the decent folk
| figured out how to scam the government out of disability
| payments by lying about back and stomach pain.
|
| In Wyoming County West Virginia >33% of all adults aged
| 18-64 are on disability. These aren't broken down coal
| miners they are normal, healthy, unemployed people.
|
| My county? 6%.
|
| The only parts of America where people aren't trying to
| scam each other are uninhabited.
| smelendez wrote:
| If you go as a tourist to a place in the US that doesn't
| get a lot of tourists, like a small Midwest city, people
| will happily give you recommendations of things to see and
| do. The same if you go in a neighborhood bar or coffee shop
| in a big city neighborhood that's not overtouristed.
|
| Nobody will try to charge you the tourist rate because
| there isn't one. There may be scammers and shady merchants
| operating in town but you will not be their primary target.
| KerrAvon wrote:
| West Virginia is a deeply red state; I don't think you want
| to go there to avoid scams. It's pervasive in the US
| because the political leadership is all now scam culture,
| all the time. Trump is, at core, a corrupt, subliterate,
| small-time real estate huckster. Everybody he's surrounded
| himself with is either an insincere grifter or severely
| mentally ill. And they're running the federal government
| and the red states, and trying to destroy the state
| governments of the blue ones.
| chasd00 wrote:
| Those places are all over the US but just not very
| interesting. Ft. Davis (or maybe Alpine) Texas is what
| you're describing but no one really goes there because it's
| just a small town with people working and living their
| lives as best they can. There's nothing to attract any
| outside attention really. I only know that area because of
| my wife introducing me to Marfa TX which does a little bit
| of tourism because of the Judd foundation.
|
| I fell in love with that part of Texas and the people. My
| wife and I were married in Marathon which is in a ~75 mile
| radius of the towns i listed above
| scoofy wrote:
| I remember when Four Barrel Coffee had blown up in SF. I
| lived in the neighborhood, and learned, there was just an
| entrance in the ally behind the building for locals. No sign,
| just a way to skip the line.
|
| I have no idea if it's still there, but I thought it was a
| super clever way of doing things.
| gtowey wrote:
| I think it's worse than that. I'm starting to think that
| there may not really be an ethical way to be a tourist in a
| foreign country. Especially coming from a high cost of living
| area to a lower one.
|
| Just being there puts you in economic competition with the
| locals. You can spend more on everything than everyone else
| and that raises their costs too. Especially housing and food.
| Those fancy resorts take all the prime real estate and Airbnb
| means locals have to compete with the tourist rental prices.
|
| And there is more and more people traveling all the time so
| some areas are just overloaded -- as in the article here.
|
| Everyone thinks that they are being more respectful than
| average as a tourist, but the hard truth is that the best
| thing you can do for these places is to not be there at all.
| KerrAvon wrote:
| It's not quite that simple. Your tourism money is valuable.
| It's a huge influx of money into the local economy. They
| don't want it to go to zero.
| jorvi wrote:
| It literally is quite that simple. I can tell you from
| experience via friends and acquaintances that tourists
| are crushing the locals out of Barcelona and Amsterdam.
| And I expect the same to be true of Warsaw or Berlin.
|
| And its not just tourists. ASML has completely destroyed
| the housing market in the Brainport region. They're
| planning to hire 20.000 more people, but with The
| Netherlands currently being in one of the most severe
| housing crises in the world, these expats just end up
| pushing everyone out of the local housing market because
| they can overbid on houses / rental properties so much.
|
| ASML has woken up to this and is underwriting affordable
| housing developments, but only at a clip of 1500 per
| year. So yeah, the locals are not exactly happy, even if
| it is good for The Netherlands and EU as a whole.
|
| Frankly, I expect the next decade or two to be about
| harsh protectionism. People are really, really tired of
| globalisation eating the world.
| slaw wrote:
| Barcelona has immigration problem, not tourists. The same
| with Warsaw and Berlin.
| paulryanrogers wrote:
| Meaning they've become gentrified by rich foreigners?
| inglor_cz wrote:
| Medieval places that have nowhere to expand to (Venice,
| Dubrovnik) are hit extra hard.
|
| That said, I visited Rome 20 years ago and a year ago,
| and what used to be fairly live city center is now one
| writhing mass of bodies.
| jacobgkau wrote:
| Japan closed their borders to tourists during COVID. If
| it's as simple as you say, then they can do it again.
|
| They won't because you couldn't get a majority of their
| populace to agree with you, which doesn't necessarily
| mean it's incorrect but does at least mean it's not
| simple.
| majormajor wrote:
| > Everyone thinks that they are being more respectful than
| average as a tourist, but the hard truth is that the best
| thing you can do for these places is to not be there at
| all.
|
| I think this is definitely not true.
|
| And I think oversaturation generally happens because most
| people _don 't_ think that, or think about it at all. They
| have a checklist of spots to hit, photos to take, things to
| eat, and they follow it. They'll put up with huge lines,
| crazy prices, etc. Overcharging isn't terrible for
| _everyone_ local, of course, but the crowding certainly
| changes a place. Often not better for most locals.
|
| If you're trying to be respectful I think that rules out
| following those huge crowds usually. Like, seeing the Mona
| Lisa is usually a shitty experience, but at least its in a
| controlled environment. Visiting a trendy vacation spot
| like Barcelona, on the other hand, is hitting the whole
| town and frankly ... maybe not that interesting or novel.
| There are other places out there, many not even that far
| away from the hotspots. Though you also need to rein in any
| instinct to show off any other finds or places online, let
| the local place you enjoyed become deluged.
| lazyasciiart wrote:
| How do you say it's not true and then immediately follow
| by suggesting people just shouldn't go to Barcelona?
| majormajor wrote:
| I'm not sure what you mean?
|
| This is what I said isn't true: "Everyone thinks that
| they are being more respectful than average"
|
| I think most people don't think about being respectful
| much at all.
|
| I think someone who _does_ want to be respectful would be
| like "hey, locals say tourism is currently out of
| control in Barcelona, we'll pick somewhere else for now."
| returningfory2 wrote:
| I think there's a zero sum fallacy in play here. For
| example you say "Those fancy resorts take all the prime
| real estate" but many resort towns in Mexico like Cancun
| were literally invented out of thin air for international
| tourism. The alternative reality is not "Cancun for the
| locals"; the alternative reality is no Cancun.
|
| In general we have the ability to expand the amount of
| available housing/hotels/etc. to meet increased demand.
| It's not a zero sum game.
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| Even sticking with Japan, Kyoto was basically saved by
| international tourism. An American tourist ended up ended
| up intervening 20 years after his visit when he saw Kyoto
| at the top of America's list of cities to use nuclear
| weapons on.
|
| Although I don't think the commonly repeated story that
| Stinson visited on his honeymoon is true, he had gotten
| married in the previous century
| 1-more wrote:
| more details on the Honeymoon myth in this
| https://blog.nuclearsecrecy.com/2023/07/24/henry-stimson-
| did...
| hyghjiyhu wrote:
| Your fallacy is that you are implicitly thinking of
| yourself as an intrinsically evil corrupting force that
| should be minimized as much as possible, in fact it would
| be better if you didn't exist at all.
|
| This is a very bleak misanthropic view that isn't true.
| It's possible to be a force for good. To form a symbiosis
| where each side benefits from the other. If you see a
| native resident, do you think he is perfectly pure, content
| and happy? Or does he have his troubles and issues. How can
| you help him? Entertain? Teach? Trade?
| rectang wrote:
| There are so many humans that are blithely destructive
| and nearly all of them believe themselves to be good,
| because it is human nature to have faith in your own
| wholesome intentions. Overtourism is one area among many
| where we would be better off if more people at least
| considered their impact.
| jacobgkau wrote:
| The ones who are going to heed your advice to minimize
| their existence are not the ones who need to hear it,
| generally. That mentality just punishes thoughtful people
| and will not reach the vast majority of the ones you
| believe are a problem.
| rectang wrote:
| Living an examined life and choosing actions in tune with
| your conscience is its own reward, not self-denial.
|
| Staying home is not the only alternative to participating
| in the most destructive acts of overtourism.
| ccppurcell wrote:
| I know what you mean but I live close to the border of
| another country. Can it really be unethical to stay in a
| hotel in a city two hours west but not two hours northeast
| because of a border? Maybe you're just talking about the
| American experience.
|
| There are certainly places where it is clearer cut. Hawaii
| and Barcelona come to mind.
| the_af wrote:
| It's unethical to do tourism in Barcelona? What's so
| "clear cut"?
| the_af wrote:
| Ok, so there's no ethical way of doing tourism. So what's
| the alternative?
|
| Stay at home? Do not take vacations? Never learn anything
| about the outside world that's not mediated by books or the
| internet?
|
| Because I can tell you not even your own country (whatever
| that is) is spared from this. You cannot travel within your
| country without causing this, either.
| raincole wrote:
| What a ridiculous statement... so applying for a remote job
| is unethical if you live in a lower cost of living area
| than your employer? It's only natural that people want to
| make money from higher cost areas and spend it elsewhere.
|
| And this article is about Japan, a freaking island where
| the government has a total control over how many people are
| getting in...
| gherkinnn wrote:
| > There's also Google Maps and Yelp vs. Japan's local version
| (pretty much any review on the former two are useless, and
| hopelessly biased by clueless tourists).
|
| I do not understand why one would even look at tourist
| reviews for "authentic Japanese jalapenos" or whatever on
| Gmaps. But people do so what do I know.
| projectazorian wrote:
| Interestingly, Apple Maps is integrated with Tabelog. So
| using Apple Maps to search for restaurants in Japan can be
| an effective strategy.
| projectazorian wrote:
| > I'm of mixed minds. I really miss the days when it was
| possible to be welcomed pretty much anywhere as a foreigner
| and have almost universal expectations of high quality, scam-
| free experiences, but those days are pretty much gone now.
|
| I don't think they're gone though? I just got back from a
| trip to Japan and I was very pleased to find these
| experiences were still the norm outside the most heavily
| touristed areas. Even in big cities. Have been to Colombia
| twice in the past two years and it was the same way.
| deaddodo wrote:
| > That said, they're serious about "no entry" if you have
| tattoos.
|
| This is not uncommon in Japan, in general. Usually it's more of
| an anti-Yakuza/riffraff regulation than an anti-foreigner one.
| It just so happens to kill two birds with one stone, in some
| cases.
| returningfory2 wrote:
| Indeed, but in my experience many of these places have an
| unspoken sub-rule that the tattoo rule is not enforced for
| foreigners.
| jayd16 wrote:
| Seems like if you smile and act friendly and dumb and
| American you get a lot of slack along with the Japanese
| shopkeeper version of an eye roll and a headpat.
| androidoka wrote:
| This is a part of the issue, knowing the rules but
| nonetheless not following them. And then -- culturally
| unaware -- thinking it's ok because nobody says anything.
| BobaFloutist wrote:
| I mean "don't have a tattoo" isn't really a rule you can
| follow based on a sign very easily.
| ponector wrote:
| But somehow you can follow rules with signs like
| "women(men) only". I bet it's easier to follow no tattoo
| rule.
| BobaFloutist wrote:
| I mean you can't quickly remove a tattoo or change your
| gender based on a sign.
| eska wrote:
| You can still get a private onsen room.
| deaddodo wrote:
| This rule applies to most confucian/communal East Asian
| societies with individuals from the West. People aren't
| idiots, they realize cultures differ, so they're willing
| to give some slack; especially, with a culture they're
| somewhat familiar with through media (the US, for
| instance).
|
| With Japan and Korea (especially the latter) towards
| Americans, there's also a soft-unspoken rule (that sort
| of goes both ways) due to the relationship those
| countries have fostered towards each other. A
| Brit/German/Italian/etc who spends more than a short
| visit in Korea/speaks Korean will probably start being
| taken to the side for flouting cultural norms like age-
| deference, polite speech, etc to be informed of their
| cultural mores (usually phrased with an indication that
| they also come from a structured society, they should
| understand that this is the way it is); while this will
| rarely happen to the same group of Americans. In some
| cases it's the "dumb/naive American" effect, but it also
| has to do with the larger relationship between the two
| countries.
| returningfory2 wrote:
| I struggle to believe this. How can the average Korean
| tell the difference between a white American and a white
| Brit?
| Barrin92 wrote:
| language/accent obviously, dress, manners and also
| English people in particular look distinct physically
| given that most white Americans are more likely to have
| Northwestern European ancestry. The stereotypical
| "American white guy" would have an easier time on Swedish
| or German TV than joining the cast of Peaky Blinders
| vorpalhex wrote:
| We were told by our onsen host that as long as we made a
| genuine attempt at covering our tattoos, the onsen didn't
| mind (given that we were obviously foreigners). Making an
| attempt at covering was still required (and we used high
| end stage makeup that was waterproof).
| Findecanor wrote:
| Otherwise, I think skin-coloured patches for this purpose
| are available here and there.
| Klonoar wrote:
| Replace foreigners with "white" and you're more or less
| spot on.
|
| I know far too many non-Japanese-asian people who get held
| to the standards applied to Japanese people - not even over
| tattoos, but things like language, cultural understandings,
| etc. The aspect of this with white people is where the
| infamous "gaijin smash" came from.
| mock-possum wrote:
| Ugh the 'no tattoo' discrimination thing really bugs me.
| varispeed wrote:
| I remember this. Wanted to order something from a vending
| machine and had no clue what to do. I went to a nearby hotel
| and asked person at the reception to help. They actually agreed
| and bought the item I wanted and didn't want cash for it. Made
| my day.
| keysdev wrote:
| Its about time we do that. This look online for good local
| places to go needs to stop. You either live there for some
| times and discover the place by getting to know the locals or
| yeah you just do not get to know the place.
| dvdkon wrote:
| Where does that stop, though? Should people only ever explore
| their own city? Most people will only be able to move once
| every few years.
| flexagoon wrote:
| Would that really work? I've lived in the same city for my
| entire life, and I still mostly discover places to go to
| online.
| okdood64 wrote:
| > And a few more of the seedier bars just have the (time
| honored) "no foreigners" sign out front.
|
| Eh, even some non "seedy" ones have it. It's common enough.
| patrickscoleman wrote:
| Even as a foreigner who speaks Japanese, I frequently got the
| "we're closed" and crossing the hands in an X response while
| locals continued eating. Sometime they'd laugh and I'd hear
| "gaijin" (rude slang for foreigner) as I walked out.
|
| But plenty of places were super warm and friendly after the
| initial apprehension if you speak Japanese and read some kanji.
| Worth the effort!
| tmtvl wrote:
| If I remember correctly, gaijin is just how you say
| 'foreigner' in standard Japanese. The rude slang is jingai.
|
| And I also have the experience of people really appreciating
| it if you actually speak and read Japanese. Which makes
| sense, I can easily imagine it being a relief to find that
| you can just speak with someone normally instead of having to
| struggle with this absolutely bonkers weird language that one
| may be only vaguely familiar with.
|
| I can imagine that people in, say, the United States wouldn't
| be very happy if I went around and only spoke Dutch.
| hackama wrote:
| Gaikokujin is the correct way to say it. Gaijin is slang
| but I'm not sure how rude it would be considered.
| projectazorian wrote:
| > And I also have the experience of people really
| appreciating it if you actually speak and read Japanese.
|
| 100%. You don't even need to know that much. Even if you
| have to switch to English, showing respect by demonstrating
| some effort to learn the local language and culture goes a
| long way.
| projectazorian wrote:
| I never got this, but at busy times it was not uncommon to
| get a super apologetic "we're full" when there were clearly a
| few seats available. Honestly I get it, foreigners are higher
| effort to deal with and if you're already busy you might not
| want to deal with that. Or they could be holding seats for
| regulars, etc.
| raffael_de wrote:
| > "no foreigners" sign out front
|
| It's funny how everybody seems totally cool with this in Japan
| (or other Asian countries) but all hell breaks lose if somebody
| pulls that off in Europe. Actually this is just the news
| currently as a public swimming facility in Switzerland recently
| banned foreigners due to problems with visitors from France.
| The guests now seem super happy but it has been in he news
| already for a few days. In Germany you can even sue in such a
| case as we have anti-discrimination laws.
| jacobgkau wrote:
| > A matcha place I like only lets you order from the real menu
| after you've unlocked enough visits from a punch card.
|
| What's the "fake menu" you have to order from before you unlock
| the real one? Or do you just have to swing by but aren't
| allowed to order anything? Compared to the others, it's hard to
| think of how this would necessarily help the business, aside
| from possibly disincentivizing people who are uncaring enough
| that their traffic would be bad but still care enough that they
| won't go there if they can't order something specific.
| jancsika wrote:
| > Another specific $10 Michelin guide ramen restaurant only
| lets you order from a vending machine outside using a payment
| method you can't access as a foreigner (one needs a physical
| JCB card or QUICPay - EPOS/Suica/Pasmo/Cash etc wouldn't work).
|
| It must be quite the character who has the discipline and drive
| to get a Michelin star _and_ takes pleasure in putting giant
| roadblocks in front of traveling foodies. Reminds me of this
| elderly couple who despised kids and ran a successful toy
| store.
| keiferski wrote:
| There are a ton of articles about over-tourism in Japan lately,
| and after thinking about it for awhile, I think you can boil it
| down to two things other than the obvious (the yen losing value,
| etc.)
|
| 1. The extreme success of Japanese culture via media,
| specifically abroad. This wasn't just a thing that happened
| accidentally, it was in some sense planned for decades. See for
| example the Cool Japan initiative:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cool_Japan
|
| I haven't been to Korea, but I imagine that their tourism numbers
| have dramatically increased in the last decade due to k-pop,
| k-dramas, Squid Game, etc. - all of which have been deliberately
| used to promote the country's culture abroad.
|
| 2. Japan is one of the few countries in the world which has
| navigated modernity without essentially just becoming
| Westernized. Sure, there are many Western chains and technologies
| there, but there are also tons of social practices, attitudes,
| and other things which are _very_ different from the Western
| world. Or at least they have the appearance of being very
| different to Western eyes.
|
| This is why there are constantly _weird thing in Japan_ articles
| on Reddit and HN: it 's a place that has managed to navigate its
| own path in the modern world, rather than just adopting the
| typical neoliberal homogeneity route.
| shigawire wrote:
| >neoliberal homogeneity route
|
| I'm not sure how Japan is not neoliberal or how this label
| relates to their culture. I think you are conflating
| neoliberalism with western pop culture more broadly?
| keiferski wrote:
| Maybe neoliberal was a bad word choice. I basically just mean
| that many "modern" places in the world have the same generic
| look to them, whether you're in Dubai or New York or Warsaw.
| Japan also has these places, but somehow they are a bit more
| uniquely Japanese than in most other places (for example, the
| phenomenon of salarymen.)
| Tijdreiziger wrote:
| Warsaw and New York absolutely do not have the same look to
| them. (Haven't been to Dubai to compare.)
| keiferski wrote:
| I didn't say the cities look the same, I said many modern
| places in them do. And yes, for example Hudson Yards
| looks quite similar to a typical mall in Warsaw (e.g.,
| the main one by the train station.) There is nothing
| about either mall that screams "this is a unique place."
| Tijdreiziger wrote:
| I don't think many people judge cities by their malls.
| matthewdgreen wrote:
| I visited in 2007 and 2024 and the weird is still there, but
| some of the "this place is at the absolute cutting edge of cool
| and tech and weird" is gone. The most disappointing thing was
| seeing how much of the cutting edge "PC" and electronics
| culture was gone from Akihabara (presumably it all went to
| Shenzhen) and how everything sold there is just older gaming
| systems (did not stop us from purchasing a beautiful Nintendo
| Famicom.) I'm sure there are some interesting things happening
| that will be cool in a decade, but it's definitely a slightly
| different place.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| The e-markets in China have also reduced a lot. The rise of
| online shopping killed made them less necessary for their
| original purposes.
| EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK wrote:
| The weird thing in Japan for me was a book store in Tokyo,
| filled by men at 2am, all reading comics books.
| Jach wrote:
| There's a meme that Japan entered the 2000s in the 80s and
| then just stayed there.
|
| My first trip was in 2017, but even between then and the
| second trip in 2022, I could tell Akiba lost even more of its
| electronics culture. I was there last December and helped
| someone build a PC. At least for "standard" stuff you can get
| by, though for sourcing many things the best solution was
| often, somewhat sadly, Amazon JP. For things like GPUs you
| had to double-check you're buying new, not used, because
| shops will display both sometimes in the same case. All
| prices were somewhat more than what it'd cost to import from
| the US + pay taxes on that. (Except for canon camera
| batteries, I picked up an extra one on one of my trips and
| was surprised how much cheaper it was.)
|
| For another of my own purchases, I needed to get some extra
| laptop RAM to finish a graphics project locally as my home
| machine I was remoting to was acting up. It was a struggle
| finding any place with them in stock at all, in or outside
| Akiba, and then those in sizes greater than 4 GB. And when I
| did, I still had to talk to someone at the counter, who
| pulled out a shoebox of assorted brands and sizes. Just so
| bizarre compared to almost every other component from HDDs to
| SSDs to USB sticks and more being on public walls/racks to
| pick over -- at worst there'd be just a rack of tags and you
| select the product by tag and the person at the counter will
| get it when you check out. Didn't have that at all for laptop
| RAM. I found a place at last that had a single 16 GB stick I
| could use, which at least helped me make progress until
| Amazon could get a second one to me and let me stop toeing
| the edge of maxing out my memory.
| skeezyboy wrote:
| Japan is certainly Westernised, hentai notwithstanding.
| tartoran wrote:
| Japan is westernized in some ways but it managed to keep
| something original to Japanese culture that you can't find
| otherplace.
| Karrot_Kream wrote:
| Strongly disagree with #2. I think every foreigner who visits
| the big Japanese cities gets charmed by its quirky land use and
| small shops, but the reality of Japan is that most things are
| owned by conglomerates and that depopulation means that
| increasingly blue collar work is being done by immigrants
| (sound familiar?) Japanese lifestyle resembles America from the
| 2000s in broad strokes. China and India still have a lot of
| their older culture present. Indians often dress in clothing
| that's recognizably non-Western in every day situations and
| both countries have food cultures that are pretty different
| from the West.
| NalNezumi wrote:
| The problem isn't small businesses. Japan already have millions
| of hard to find gems that even the locals don't know, because the
| owners barely market things (runs on local patronage) and those
| are still doing fine outside the tourism craze. And those places
| can be quite direct about not wanting the one-off tourist; When I
| was an exchange student in Kyoto we were told off from a couple
| of places, which wasn't an issue.
|
| The "small businesses" being swamped are rarely those kinds. They
| want that extra income but can't really serve it, and often
| realize that one off selfie tourists just generally have little
| respect for rules and end up trashing the place,(or the
| surroundings, not necessarily because bad intent but cultural
| differences) causing ire from the locals.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| _...small business purpose quickly shifts into: Being a community
| hub for a core group of regulars._
|
| If you want to be a members' only club, be a members' only club.
| I understand concerns with Venice sinking or a tiny train station
| being overrun with anime fans, but Kyoto is and always will be a
| popular tourist destination for many reasons.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| Tourism in Japan is still pretty low compared to traditional
| tourism hot spots like Paris or Rome. As is usual, it's the
| relative change that is significant rather than the absolute
| numbers. The change from "almost none" to "some" affects a place
| more than the change from "a lot" to "even more".
| shusaku wrote:
| I was thinking similarly, because you go to a famously tourist
| packed city like Paris and find nothing by local shops. But
| concluded differently than you: the article is just wrong.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| I don't think that's true if you add in Chinese tourists, which
| are like 80% of Japan's overseas tourist mix, it is china's #2
| overseas tourist destination after Korea (adjacency has a lot
| to do with that). France is #23, while China is the largest and
| fastest growing market for overseas tourists.
| pilingual wrote:
| That's not true. https://www.msn.com/en-us/travel/news/us-
| trips-to-japan-surp...
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| AFAICT, Germans & Brits outnumber Americans in Paris and
| Chinese outnumber Americans in Tokyo. So American numbers
| aren't particularly significant, IMO.
|
| But seanmcdirmid in a sibling comment is likely correct, and
| I'm possibly wrong.
| zarzavat wrote:
| Hmm. As a Brit I would not consider a trip to Paris to be
| "tourism". It's just a trip over the border. Yes they speak
| a different language there but it's a language that I was
| forced to study in school. No doubt Germans feel the same
| way.
|
| Going to Spain on the other hand would be tourism. I don't
| speak Spanish, it's not a neighbouring country, you arrive
| in an airport, etc.
|
| If an American or a Chinese person goes to Paris I feel
| they likely have different motivations and itinerary than a
| Brit, Belgian, etc who is taking the train possibly only
| for the day.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| Tourism in Japan is fine if concentrated in central Tokyo or
| major cities for instance. You can try to flood Shibuya or
| Ginza with tens of thousands of tourists everyday it won't be
| much of an issue.
|
| Tourists spilling over on less prepared and smaller places is
| the real issue IMHO. Seeking "authenticity" while not being
| local/integrated understandingly generates friction at scale.
| ragazzina wrote:
| > Tourism in Japan is still pretty low compared to traditional
| tourism hot spots like Paris or Rome.
|
| Tokyo has more international tourists than Rome and is the
| third city destination in the world.
|
| https://www.euromonitor.com/press/press-releases/december-20...
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| That's a list of where people want to go. Further down in the
| article is the list of cities where people actually go. Tokyo
| isn't in the top 10.
| pm215 wrote:
| It also felt to me to be weirdly concentrated in particular
| small areas. I spent a few weeks in various places in northern
| Japan which varied from "very quiet" to "tourists but not too
| many"; but in Tokyo, Akihabara was absolutely heaving with
| tourists (in a way it wasn't five years ago). And even in Tokyo
| just getting a little way away from the hotspots you could find
| beautiful but quiet places still. So I agree with the author's
| suggestion to go to parts of the country that aren't the tiny
| fraction of super-famous locations or social-media sensations.
| returningfory2 wrote:
| I feel like tourist places are "weirdly concentrated" as you
| put it. When I was Florence the center was obviously super
| busy, but walking only 15 minutes in one direction there
| seemed to be almost no tourists around (of course, the area I
| was in didn't have any sights). It made me think that maybe
| there's a bias to the feeling of overtourism because people
| think about the one part of the city where all the tourists
| are.
| chasd00 wrote:
| New Orleans Louisiana is like this, walk down Bourbon
| street and it's packed with tourists but turn and walk
| perpendicular to Bourbon street for 2 blocks and you're all
| alone.
|
| /this is a joke, don't do this.
| guardiangod wrote:
| Rome had been the center of the western world for 2000 years,
| and Paris for 400. You can't compare those "well-trodden"
| cities to Kyoto, which was relatively secluded from tourists
| until the invention of jet airliners.
| rwmj wrote:
| I was in Rome a couple of summers ago (not as a tourist) and it
| was pretty crazy how many tourists there were. You could hardly
| walk along the streets in the centre. I wouldn't want to live
| there as a local, or ever be anywhere which is "not quite as
| bad as Rome".
| boogieknite wrote:
| my favorite food from my visit was a mochi stand in Fujisawa
| station. it was a station of tables and had a sign that said
| MOCHI all over it
|
| i wanted to give it a review but it didnt exist on google maps
| and it was even in a blind spot of Google street view inside
| Fujisawa
|
| been thinking for a few years how crazy it was that my favorite
| place on our 10 day trip was completely invisible online in 2024.
| havent checked back recently but now i hope its still invisible
| online
| hamandcheese wrote:
| > Only psychopaths love Manhattan because of Duane Reade.
|
| That may be true in Manhattan, but Japan has amazing, lovable
| chains. The fact that you are never far from a 7-Eleven, Family
| Mart, Coco Ichibanya, or Ichiran (and they are often open late if
| not 24 hours) is one of my favorite parts of Japan.
| seanmcdirmid wrote:
| And the shopping is pretty good. A Muji flagship store just has
| a lot of things to buy that you aren't going to find in a
| downtown Portland or Paris Muji.
| slillibri wrote:
| Don't forget Yoshinoya, Sukiya, or Cafe Gusto.
| jerryliu12 wrote:
| Have to say that I'm shocked that the local government hasn't
| cracked down on the Mario Kart stuff.
| timr wrote:
| They're starting to ban it. Japan's wheels of government move
| slowly, but they tend to be effective when they do move.
| Klonoar wrote:
| It's happened on and off over the years, and at one point
| Nintendo took legal action against the business itself. It's
| just an annoyingly persistent tourist trap.
| chihuahua wrote:
| I agree. These go-karts are only street legal vehicles if the
| government agrees that they are street legal. If the government
| passes a rule that says go-karts are not street legal, they can
| be confiscated and destroyed as soon as they are spotted by the
| police. It seems that this problem could be easily solved.
| agnishom wrote:
| I am not sure I understand the argument the author is making. Is
| this what they are saying? [Overtourism is bad for small
| businesses because it encourages them to cater to tourists, and
| therefore to chase global trends rather than to serve the taste
| of the local community]
|
| I am sure many of them would be a little upset, but I don't
| understand how this counts as "hurting" small businesses?
| skeezyboy wrote:
| he thinks there are businesses out there that do it for the
| love, and somehow dont need customers or revenue to survive.
| and ill have to dig my heels in when he says they arent doing
| it to get rich.
| franciscojs wrote:
| I'm on the same boat. On one hand it seems tourism is a bad
| thing, on the other it recommends places that are little known
| to tourism... oh well
| prokopton wrote:
| I've lived in Nagoya for 20 years and Kyoto's unbearable to visit
| anymore. I loved it twenty years ago but I have no interest in
| wading through the tourists from overseas.
| piazz wrote:
| > Another visitor was spending a leisurely week in Morioka alone
| before heading to Fukuoka for a few months.
|
| Oh hey, that was me! Small (internet) world, huh :)
| franciscop wrote:
| I find Japan a bit strange about these "making profit" topics. I
| still don't fully grasp how it's possible so many of these
| business that "poured much of their life savings into opening
| these places, taken out loans" don't rejoice and raise their
| prices (a bit? a lot?), making them able to do this thing they
| are doing, much better. Heck invite the regulars to the 2nd drink
| with that extra money that is coming in now if you want, or give
| them a discount.
|
| Here there is the opportunity of a lifetime, and many Japan
| business are straight out rejecting the money that comes pouring
| in. Meanwhile Japan economy is the worst it's been in 40-50
| years, and virtually every week there's articles about the bleak
| future. It's too frustrating seeing articles complaining about
| how business are closing down with no money, and at the same time
| how these people trying to give them money are being rejected.
|
| Background: living in Japan 5-10 years, I'm from Spain so it's
| not "in my blood" to think about profit also, but heck it's just
| too surprising some times.
|
| PS, I'm for reducing tourism overall here actually, I'm just
| baffled at Japanese rejecting money.
| blibble wrote:
| > Here there is the opportunity of a lifetime, and many Japan
| business are straight out rejecting the money that comes
| pouring in.
|
| because not everyone cares firstly about money?
|
| the article is quite clear, the woman wanted to open a business
| to serve her friends and locals
|
| now she can't do that, and is understandably upset
| herdrick wrote:
| From the parent comment: "Heck invite the regulars to the 2nd
| drink with that extra money that is coming in now if you
| want, or give them a discount." That could even be revenue
| neutral, if she wants it to be. Why not try that?
| johngossman wrote:
| I was just thinking about restaurants. The iconic French or
| Italian restaurant is larger than the iconic Japanese izakaya
| with 10 seats. And unlike the tapas bars of Spain, it isn't
| expected you'll move on to the next place or take your food
| outside.
| lbreakjai wrote:
| These sorts of critics always struck me as elitist and
| pretentious. If reminds me of those kids gatekeeping music genres
| and claiming you couldn't call yourself a fan unless you listened
| to the most obscure album of the most obscure band.
|
| Just a fashionable way to say you've been there and done that,
| and that you're above the hoi polloi.
|
| Popular cities, and popular attractions within, are popular for a
| reason.
| sorcerer-mar wrote:
| > Popular cities, and popular attractions within, are popular
| for a reason.
|
| Reasons which typically don't include "can sustain infinite
| visitors"
| tourismscourge1 wrote:
| Like Tour Eiffel, London Eye, Brooklyn Bridge, places with
| incalculable aesthetic value that nothing have to do with Hype
| Klonoar wrote:
| Craig's been more or less an indirect cultural ambassador/link
| for Japan in the tech scene for something like the past 15-20
| years. I very much doubt he's gatekeeping.
| post_break wrote:
| The gatekeeping music reminds me of this skit. It's a word
| document.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5-rGN0ou_4
| zeroonetwothree wrote:
| This argument seems to be heavily tinged with xenophobia. Local
| customers good, foreign ones bad? I can understand if it was
| specifically about the volume...
| gspencley wrote:
| Not only that, but these business owners are actively
| complaining about an influx of business.
|
| I get it if your goal is not necessarily to make as much money
| as possible and just wanted to create some small, local,
| "underground" thing. As a small business owner myself, I can
| think of a few different ways you could accomplish that in
| spite of massive attention. I mean you can have certain days of
| the week where you're closed to the general public but patrons
| with a loyalty card can get in or something. That's just one
| idea; point is there are solutions.
|
| So I tend to agree with you - this reeks of "we just don't like
| foreigners. They're ruining our business by being foreign."
|
| My wife and I are about to open our first brick and mortar
| business and it would be our dream come true to get popular on
| TikTok and to be a tourist destination. Even though we are a
| small business in a trendy neighbourhood doing something rather
| niche that is [hopefully] going to attract a loyal local
| following.
| Argonaut998 wrote:
| So what? They're right. Japanese are a million times more
| civilized than us foreigners/tourists.
|
| They also have a vastly different culture with many possible
| faux-pas that one can make, which all tourists inevitably make,
| which they hate. I think they are unfair about this however
| tourismscourge1 wrote:
| Xenophobia is an invalid argument only if your IQ has two
| digits
| quibono wrote:
| Reading this thread and some of the replies reminds of the
| whole "world vs Japan" memes.
|
| Wanting to preserve the local culture is racist and
| disgusting UNLESS it's Japan doing it. I wonder why Japan's
| so special
| Minks wrote:
| People get really picky about their xenophobia and racism lmao
| peterldowns wrote:
| I walked the Kumano Kodo after reading Craig's essay about it. I
| like to think I was one of the 15% he talks about here. One of
| these days I'll go back to Japan and I'll make sure to go to
| Morioka.
|
| My favorite line in this article:
|
| > I've come to see overtourism as a kind of natural disaster. How
| can you get angry at the earth for having an earthquake?
| reedf1 wrote:
| I would like harder evidence that Japanese business owners _hate_
| high-spending tourists. From my personal experience small
| business owners have at least appeared to very much appreciate my
| custom. There is a sordid history of Westerners defending Japan
| from itself - I 'm not saying that is happening here, but I would
| like to see more systematic evidence.
| olalonde wrote:
| Seems like a long winded version of "No one goes there anymore
| anyways, its too crowded".
| cedws wrote:
| I live in Tokyo at the moment. I get the overtourism thing,
| because after you've been here even just a little while (months)
| you start to have a disdain for tourists that do tourist things.
| Like breaking the rules, being a nuisance, swarming parts of the
| city.
|
| I don't know what can be done about it though. Japan's economy is
| in trouble, and the tourist money helps and hurts at the same
| time. It creates tax revenue, yet inflates prices for locals.
| Japan's stumbling economy is a factor in itself of the tourism
| influx due to the weak yen.
|
| In the next few decades I fear Japan is going to go through a
| difficult period of cultural erosion. It needs foreign workers
| and at the rate they'll be entering, they won't integrate to the
| level that the Japanese people want.
|
| I'd like to think I'm one of the "15%" that the article describes
| - I go to great lengths to integrate despite not speaking a lot
| of Japanese. But deep down I know that I don't belong here, and
| that Japan would prefer to be a homogenous society without expats
| like me. And I hold no hard feelings toward them for that.
| anon-3988 wrote:
| > But deep down I know that I don't belong here, and that Japan
| would prefer to be a homogenous society without expats like me.
| And I hold no hard feelings toward them for that.
|
| I think this is an important point that I am struggling to
| articulate. I actually like the fact that they "prefer to do
| things their way". When I was traveling there, it is clear that
| I stand out from my behavior. We might share the same skin
| color but I don't speak the language nor have the mannerism.
|
| I don't fit, they don't know how to deal with me and that is
| fine. In fact, I would prefer it to be that way. I prefer Japan
| to be Japan. Of course there are societal issues that needs to
| be fixed but those are orthogonal to what I am talking about.
| cedws wrote:
| My home country, the UK, has already been through this
| cultural erosion which is why I respect Japan's right to
| defend its own. London in particular has become a place for
| everybody and at the same time for nobody. It's a city of
| people of different values and wavelengths with very little
| shared strata compared with Tokyo.
| anon-3988 wrote:
| I am from a country in South East Asia, and its sad here as
| well. We have absolutely 0 connection to our ancestors from
| just 100 years ago. We (and me) have truly forgotten and
| don't have any identity beyond the surface level. We
| suffered from Arabification of every part of our culture.
|
| I honestly think the original culture is pretty much
| extinct. Very, very few of the incoming generation even
| desire to uphold and rekindle that culture. In fact, it is
| despised.
| veqq wrote:
| Malaysia?
| SoftTalker wrote:
| Funny to see this sentiment here but in the USA if a
| conservative-leaning politician talks about "preserving our
| culture" or saying that immigrants should "assimilate" they
| are accused of being a code-word (or even an overt) racist.
| dfxm12 wrote:
| US conservatives get no benefit of the doubt thanks to
| years of racism and racist policy. It is clear that they
| are reactionaries looking to codify white supremacy.
|
| However, American culture has moved on (a lot) from that
| though. For several generations, it has been described as
| a "melting pot" or understood through the lens of _The
| New Colossus_ mounted on the Statue of Liberty.
| bro_me wrote:
| as an actual londoner, no, this guy is just being codedly
| racist too
| m_a_g wrote:
| London isn't an example of cultural erosion--the pie has
| simply grown. The same applies to New York. Diverse
| cultures enrich London; they add to it rather than diminish
| it.
| typewithrhythm wrote:
| Absolutely absurd. Why is it people feel the need to make
| out that western cities are somehow magically immune from
| the exact same detrimental effects that they happily
| accept about everywhere else?
|
| "Enrichment" is a buzzword for the insulated elite happy
| that they have new things on their lunch menu, somehow
| ignoring all the negatives that come with it.
| toephu2 wrote:
| Yup, this happens to any melting pot city (Paris, New York,
| LA, San Francisco, etc). The downside of multiculturalism
| is these places become low-trust societies.
|
| Do you dare leave your bike outside unlocked in these
| cities?
| decimalenough wrote:
| Bicycle theft is endemic in Japan as well.
|
| Of course, being Japan, they also have a compulsory bike
| registration scheme and police can and do (not-
| so-)randomly stop people on the street to check that
| they're not riding stolen bikes.
| vunderba wrote:
| Tangential to this but I lived in Taiwan for years and every
| time I saw a new Starbucks or McDonald's go up, I'd have to
| restrain my gag reflex.
|
| To hell with these multinational corporations that erect
| their sterile altars to unbridled capitalism, resulting in
| the mass homogenization of culture. A culture that caters to
| "everyone" caters to no one.
| peab wrote:
| I get it too. I visited japan recently and in the main touristy
| spots (tokyo and kyoto), it felt like there were more
| westerners then japanese. I felt bad.
| Klonoar wrote:
| If you experience this in Tokyo, you're dealing with the fact
| that it's a truly global city and you're not venturing off
| the tourist path enough. It's definitely still a thing in
| some parts of Tokyo to have few-to-no westerners.
|
| Kyoto was never going to be able to deal with the level of
| tourism that it's currently struggling with, though. My
| friends and I refuse to even stop there now - and I tried to
| get some friends who visited recently to avoid it in favor of
| some other culturally significant spots, but the TikTok trend
| seems to be incredibly powerful. I don't know if I have the
| words to express how that interaction made me feel, but it's
| definitely weird.
| ddejohn wrote:
| > I tried to get some friends who visited recently to avoid
| it in favor of some other culturally significant spots
|
| Any tips for somebody looking to visit Japan in the next
| year or so?
| dumbledoren wrote:
| > Japan's economy is in trouble, and the tourist money helps
| and hurts at the same time. It creates tax revenue, yet
| inflates prices for locals
|
| I lived in a successful major tourist region from its inception
| to maturity. You are incorrect in saying that it creates tax
| revenue: The Tourism sector generally gets tax breaks and
| subsidies, so it ends up eating up tax revenue to enrich
| whatever oligarchic structure or family dominates the
| landscape. Moreover, in any mild temporary crisi,s it risks
| collapsing and forces the government to bail it out by spending
| enormous amounts of money.
|
| Tourism is like a tick that sucks away the productive forces
| and resources of a country - it diverts both budget (tax
| breaks, subsidies) and educated manpower away from actual goods
| and services production, provides sh*t jobs to those employed
| in tourism, causes inflation and CoL rise across regions and
| even the entire country. If you want to cripple a country's
| industrial and technological power, the best thing to do is to
| push tourism on it.
| zarzavat wrote:
| > And I hold no hard feelings toward them for that.
|
| But isn't that why Japan ended up like this? Every country
| needs either immigration or babies, and Japan chose option C:
| neither. And now the decision has been made for them, a very
| high dose of immigration is required.
|
| It's like ignoring a cavity and eventually needing a root
| canal.
|
| Xenophobia is simply an unworkable idea, like eugenics and
| other discredited beliefs. Or at least it needs to be paired
| with a religion that encourages having kids.
| TrappedInCorner wrote:
| I find it amusing when Japan wants to be a homogenous society
| everybody respects their right to have that opinion. But when a
| european country voices the same wish, everybody loses their
| mind.
| blks wrote:
| Immigrants like you. Not "expats".
| wavemode wrote:
| > But deep down I know that I don't belong here, and that Japan
| would prefer to be a homogenous society without expats like me.
| And I hold no hard feelings toward them for that.
|
| I get what you're saying, but I also marvel at how completely
| contrary this is to the "freedom of movement" ethics of the
| West. I mean, someone who holds this same opinion in Europe or
| America would be considered a Neo-Nazi.
| EasyMark wrote:
| Seems like a golden opportunity to be smart about it and use
| advertising to make less visited parts of cities tourist
| attractions. People want to experience Japan, but naturally
| focii will appear over time via positive feedback, you have to
| overcome that with advertising and promotions on the web via
| influencers and advertising. That seems like a government focus
| if they are really interested in doing something about it.
| dudeinjapan wrote:
| I'm the CTO & Founder of TableCheck, the booking system used by
| 10,000+ restaurants in Japan. My two cents: the issue isn't
| simply "too many tourists" but rather over-concentration at a few
| hotspots, a domestic-first market, low English proficiency
| (ranked #87 globally, a notch above Afghanistan), and a culture
| deeply focused on orderliness and not causing inconvenience for
| others.
|
| That said, nearly all hospitality owners in Japan I work with now
| recognize the importance of inbound tourism--critical for a
| country facing a 30% population decline by 2070. When I started
| TableCheck ~12 years ago, many places avoided non-Japanese guests
| --not always from "racism", but often a fear of miscommunication
| and dissatisfying guests. That mindset is rapidly fading: venues
| that don't capture inbound guests' revenue simply won't survive.
|
| Happy to answer questions!
| dividefuel wrote:
| Do you sense there's still a reluctance to serve foreign
| guests, and that it's largely done out of necessity but not out
| of innate desire?
| dudeinjapan wrote:
| No, I really don't. Chefs and restaurant operators chose
| their profession out of a genuine desire to share cuisine and
| hospitality experiences with as many people as possible, and
| the vast majority genuinely appreciate meeting international
| guests who share their love for food. I've even heard
| Michelin chefs go as far to say that they feel their culinary
| art is more appreciated by international guests than the
| domestic audience.
|
| In Japan there is a "system" ("kata") for everything, and in
| addition, there is a concept of hospitality called
| "omotenashi" which means something like "the host will
| anticipate the all guest's needs" (you can think "omakase"--
| meaning "chef chooses"--is a facet of "omotenashi")
|
| To illustrate these concepts: I had two friends visiting from
| India who were religious vegetarians, they had asked me to
| book a traditional Japanese restaurant but almost everywhere
| I called used "dashi" (fish-based soup stock) as a core
| ingredient. I asked if dashi could be removed, but nearly
| every restaurant refused as they "didn't think it would taste
| as good"--I tried to explain my friends really wouldn't know
| the difference, to no avail--the system is the system, the
| goal is "omotenashi".
|
| Language tends to be an issue as well, but many restaurants
| will say "We don't speak English and we don't have well-
| translated menus, but if you want to try it anyway we'll
| welcome you." Another example here: Tokyo Disney gives a VIP
| tour only in Japanese, and you have to pay extra for an
| English translator. I asked them why they can't just have the
| English speaker gives the tour; the answer was "Because the
| tour is in Japanese." The system is the system.
|
| So it's easy to mistake this "omotenashi" insistence to
| follow the system as "(intentionally) not catering to foreign
| guests", but it has much more to do with "quality control"
| like you might find in a Toyota factory.
|
| Are there a handful of close-minded bigots in the Japan, who
| refuse non-Japanese speakers/non-Japanese people? Sure, there
| are in any country. You are not likely to encounter them on a
| trip to Japan--in 17 years living here I really haven't
| encountered many--and if you do, just take your business
| elsewhere.
| valenterry wrote:
| > critical for a country facing a 30% population decline by
| 2070
|
| Tourism doesn't help with that. And this decline (if it do
| happens) will impact the countryside more than the places where
| most tourists go.
| dudeinjapan wrote:
| I can say that this fact of population decline (and
| population aging) weighs heavily on the Japanese psyche,
| especially in the business world. The hottest topic for our
| customers in sales discussions is definitely "attracting
| inbound tourists".
| _fat_santa wrote:
| I live in Colorado and we have a similar issue (though not nearly
| to the scale of Japan). The line about getting "TikTokked" really
| struck a chord because there have been a few places that have
| fallen to the same fate, spots that the locals only knew about
| are now filled to the brim with both locals and tourists from out
| of state.
|
| My rule now is when we travel somewhere, we look to see what all
| the viral places from TikTok, and then we don't go there unless
| the place holds some incredible cultural significance (ie. The
| Louvre, Sagrada Familia, etc).
|
| What we found is cities are usually filled to the brim with the
| kind of spots that get "TikTokked" but only a few select places
| actually go viral and attract all the attention. When you use the
| "viral places" as a guide of where NOT to go, you end up going
| down some paths that lead you to some really special experiences
| with practically no other tourists around.
| Freak_NL wrote:
| > [...] unless the place holds some incredible cultural
| significance (ie. The Louvre, Sagrada Familia, etc).
|
| Honestly, I give those a pass too. I don't want to go to
| Barcelona and exacerbate the problem of overtourism (same goes
| for Venice). Paris is doable of course, but there too I
| wouldn't consider the Louvre right now. Not with its employees
| holding strikes because of the overcrowding!
|
| It's a big world, and there are plenty of places where I am
| welcome as a tourist. The experience is better in any case; I
| hate crowds.
| blackguardx wrote:
| I also live in Colorado and have noticed the same thing lately.
| A state park near me gets slammed with tourists but there isn't
| much to do there unless you like hiking up steep trails or rock
| climbing. Most folks seem to drive in, walk around for 30
| minutes, and then leave.
| johngossman wrote:
| A good, nuanced piece, especially if you read the footnotes. I'd
| add that some businesses aren't set up for seasonality as well as
| others. Pretty much every country has beach towns full of shops
| and motels that close in winter. But a lot of the small
| businesses the article is talking about are open year round and
| depend on locals. If you can't get into your local 4 months out
| of the year, it probably isn't your local anymore
| tourismscourge wrote:
| Cities are not amusement parks
| steveBK123 wrote:
| Visiting Japan in 2025 definitely had a different vibe than my
| 2010s visits. First of all, so many more foreigners, and multiple
| western languages overheard nearly anywhere I went.
|
| And clearly some locals fairly annoyed by it, such that some
| weren't interested in engaging with a basic level Japanese
| speaker/listener like me.
|
| I have basic enough speaking/reading/(and less so listening)
| ability to previously navigate smaller cities with little English
| speaking, pick a restaurant / order some food, make small talk
| with taxi drivers, and entertain middle aged locals who don't see
| a lot of westerners.
|
| I also saw a lot more restaurants that had extremely limited set
| course only menus for non-japanese speakers, and no patience for
| someone with non-fluency to try the Japanese menu.
|
| This trip I felt I could not get out of Tokyo fast enough. Parts
| of it just felt like every other tier 1 global city, and a
| passive aggressive unwelcomeness that wasn't to the level of
| Barcelona, but clearly different than 15 years ago.
| speak_plainly wrote:
| I just got back from Japan, and even though it wasn't peak
| season, the effects of overtourism were immediately apparent.
|
| The main driver seems to be social media, obviously not unique to
| Japan but is really blatant. Tourists were chasing selfies and
| videos at iconic locations they'd seen online, rarely venturing
| beyond those well-known spots. This creates heavy congestion and
| puts strain on specific neighborhoods and landmarks. In the West,
| TikTok appears to be the biggest influence; among Chinese
| tourists, the app Xiaohongshu (Rednote) by plays a similar role.
| The result is a tourism culture shaped less by genuine interest
| or curiosity and more by curated photo ops.
|
| Japan faces unique challenges in managing the surge in tourism.
| Despite the modern and cosmopolitan feel of its cities, the
| culture remains markedly different: socially conservative and
| culturally illiberal. Xenophobia and racial bias are not
| uncommon, and nationalist political voices have increasingly
| framed tourists as scapegoats for a range of domestic issues. At
| the same time, the country lacks sufficient infrastructure to
| support the growing number of visitors. In Kyoto, for example,
| the city's bus system is frequently overwhelmed...you could
| almost argue that separate systems for locals and tourists are
| needed.
|
| Many tourists also appear unprepared, I admittedly was completely
| unprepared for the weather. Japan is not an easy place to
| navigate culturally, and some visitors behave with surprising
| ignorance or entitlement, especially at temples and shrines.
| There's a tendency to treat the country like a kind of
| Disneyland, an exoticized backdrop for social media content,
| rather than a living culture with its own rules, rhythms, and
| expectations. This contributes to growing resentment,
| particularly in a society where individuals are often viewed in
| terms of the groups they represent. One tourist's behavior can
| easily become a reflection on all.
|
| There's no easy solution. But it's clear that both travelers and
| destinations need to rethink their relationship. Tourism should
| be approached with more awareness, humility, and a willingness to
| engage with complexity, not just consume it.
| silisili wrote:
| > The result is a tourism culture shaped less by genuine
| interest or curiosity and more by curated photo ops
|
| Well said, but definitely not unique to Japan. Sadly, I notice
| this almost everywhere I go anymore. It's also why you read
| about someone falling down a cliff or waterfall taking a selfie
| once or twice a year now.
|
| I don't have any idea what the solution is, but it definitely
| makes most sights worth seeing less enjoyable now.
| speak_plainly wrote:
| The cynic in me thinks that destinations/countries are going
| to have to pay an influencer tax and have a strong social
| media policy that works to direct/redirect and educate
| potential tourists. Japan needs to start spreading tourism a
| bit more evenly across the country. They could probably work
| with hotels to use pricing to even out visitors. But you're
| right, this is a huge problem that goes well beyond Japan.
| absove wrote:
| In my experience everyone believes they're part of this 15% of
| travelers interested in the local culture and not one of those
| stupid NPC going through the motions so the distinction this
| article is drawing between good and bad tourism completely
| defeats the point it was trying to make.
| Argonaut998 wrote:
| I felt awful about being in Kyoto last year. Had I known how bad
| it was for the locals I would never have went. I can't imagine
| how frustrated and angry if my home town was the same. The
| infrastructure can't support the number of tourists unlike Tokyo.
| Locals can't even get a bus without them being completely full to
| the brim all the day long.
|
| It's 100% social media. It's the most vapid thing in the entire
| world. It makes tourist destinations theme parks with zero
| regards for the locals.
| djoldman wrote:
| > So why do people open small shops? For any number of reasons,
| but my favorite is: They have a strong opinion about how some
| aspect of a business should be run, and they want to double down
| on it....That singular thing can drive an initial impulse, but
| small business purpose quickly shifts into: Being a community hub
| for a core group of regulars. That -- community -- is probably
| the biggest asset of small business ownership. And the quickest
| way to kill community (perhaps the most valuable gift for running
| a small business) is to go viral in a damaging way.
|
| > Pour out a cold brew for small shops with giant lines of
| transient tourists.
|
| > "James told me about another friend who owns a cocktail bar in
| Kyoto that was TikToked. She had recently stopped by and found
| him in tears. The only reason he opened the bar, he said, was so
| locals and friends like her would come. Now, all he had were
| customers he couldn't talk to."
|
| One possible interpretation of TFA is that "small shops" only
| want to allow certain people to enter and not others.
|
| I wonder if some form of private club would be more appropriate.
| keb_ wrote:
| I've traveled to Japan twice in the last 6 years; once pre-
| pandemic in 2019, and again in 2023, both times in the Fall. It
| is unbelievable how tourism has exploded there in such a short
| amount of time, and I thought it was bad in 2019. Areas that were
| quiet and mostly traversable in 2019 were impossible to navigate
| with the crowds four years later.
|
| I've been to other big touristy hotspots like Rome and Venice,
| but overtourism in Tokyo/Kyoto was more noticeable to me, perhaps
| because of the culture (loud groups of tourists entering quiet
| orderly establishments). I recall in 2019 going to teamLab Tokyo,
| and there was a large group of Western tourists who had removed
| their shoes and were lying on the ground in the mirror room.
| jlaiwejrlij wrote:
| Social media is why we can't have nice things
|
| I left Austin in 2020 and the social-media-powered tourism boom
| there from 2010 on was insane. In a decade, the entire east side
| of the city went from low income black and hispanic families to
| airbnbs and sterile cinder-block condos and bars. Downtown went
| from old dive bars and music venues in old brick buildings to
| high-price-but-not-high-quality residential high-rises and FAANG
| skyscrapers. South Congress went from kitschy shops and local
| restaurants to glass and steel instagram food factories. All the
| things I loved about it in the early 2000s are gone.
| 1024core wrote:
| > but in my opinion, the most rewarding point of travelling is:
| to sit with, and spend time with The Other ...
|
| I didn't grow up with grandparents, so I have a natural affinity
| for grandmas. Some of my most cherished moments have been
| interacting with old ladies in places like Cinque Terre,
| Portofino, Brussels, Tokyo, NYC etc. I like to walk around the
| neighborhoods, off the beaten track, and if I get a chance to
| interact with an old lady, even better.
| zephyrthenoble wrote:
| I feel like this one is a mixed bag. I would be very annoyed if
| my every day life was disrupted by tourists, especially like in
| the train stop example, and losing local businesses and
| attractions to outsiders is terrible. I don't want to minimize
| these issues at all, so to be clear, the rest of this post is
| just me wondering about the right thing to do while also still
| getting to visit interesting locations.
|
| I feel like this article really lays it on thick to make tourists
| seem like vapid TikTokers. I think the reality is more nuanced.
| We can't pretend that every person in the world has the same
| upbringing, morals, and values. There are people in the US who
| park their grocery cart in the middle of the aisle, and I have
| had plenty of tourists from other countries who just stop as soon
| as they enter a room and gum up the whole business. But plenty of
| tourists DON'T do this, and plenty of locals ALSO DO THIS. 85% of
| tourists are not stopping the middle of roads for selfies
| constantly.
|
| And the other parts feel like gatekeeping. Oh, you only get a few
| days off a year and can only afford cheap accommodations? You are
| contributing to the death of small business and the
| enshittification of our shining cities. If you can't afford to
| spend more time in fewer places, further off the beaten path
| (sometimes costing more/having fewer affordable options) then you
| are a bad traveler. Why do I have to visit locations I have never
| heard about in order to be considered good? How do I even find
| them if I can only be in a location for a short time?
|
| It just feels like a lose lose situation as a traveler. I read
| about the Roman Empire, I've seen pictures of the Italian
| cathedrals, I've watched documentaries about Pompeii, and I've
| drank Tuscan wine, so I should... go visit some small town for 2
| weeks with very little tourist presence, and no one speaks my
| language? I'm not allowed to enjoy the cultural monuments of
| these countries?
|
| Feels like the only winning move is not to play.
| s1mon wrote:
| I've been aware of Craig Mod from a distance for a while, and
| from what I've seen of his books and other works, he's very
| thoughtful and deeply sensitive to culture, but somehow it seems
| pretty hypocritical to write this when his most recent book is
| essentially a travelogue about obscure places in Japan. Of course
| the Tik Tok generation is not likely to be reading his books, but
| he is in effect adding to the load on locations which may not be
| ready for them.
|
| I was in Japan in 1996 back when a Lonely Planet guidebook was
| the best authentic reference for western travelers. People
| decried guidebooks' impact then and now. It's hard to do travel
| ethically in places that aren't ready for it. This isn't just
| about Tik Tok. As individuals, we each have to consider our
| impact culturally, economically, and environmentally.
|
| The solution isn't no tourism, because tourism encourages more
| global awareness and cross-cultural communication. It also adds
| to the economy. However, places that are filled with tourists and
| no locals aren't much fun for most people, local or tourist. It
| has to be a balance.
| bitwize wrote:
| I loved going to Japan in 2011, when it was still mainly just
| weebs doing tourism and they were relatively very few and quite
| harmless. I would not go today, because I neither want to see nor
| contribute to this problem.
|
| I'll come back when the idiots settle down. Meanwhile, my wife
| wants to see France and Scotland.
| dluan wrote:
| I live in Hawaii. Localism like what you see in the recent Mexico
| City and Barcelona protests, and like what you see at surf breaks
| once they get blown up on social media, is the free market
| response when education and regulation have failed.
| micromacrofoot wrote:
| This seems to be be becoming an increasing problem in many
| places, there are a number of protests that have popped up in
| Madrid, Venice, Hawaii, Mexico City, Lisbon...
|
| I can't blame them really, I've been kind of disgusted by the
| behavior of tourists I've seen in some places to the point where
| I think I won't travel much to major cities any more. What
| happened to trying to blend in?
| tkgally wrote:
| [delayed]
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