[HN Gopher] On The Meaning of Ritual
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On The Meaning of Ritual
Author : jger15
Score : 52 points
Date : 2025-07-05 11:40 UTC (3 days ago)
(HTM) web link (alicemaz.substack.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (alicemaz.substack.com)
| alganet wrote:
| Over the years, I've seen many charlatans use eastern references
| to manipulate western audiences.
|
| These kinds of texts, therefore, must be taken with caution.
| Which parts are "actual wisdom that I can apply to my life", and
| which parts are my own mind playing a trick of "it's old, and
| it's eastern, it's humble and it's philosophical, therefore is
| wisdom I can apply to my life".
|
| So, I'm not questioning whether there is wisdom there or not. I'm
| questioning whether I can apply that wisdom to my life, through
| western eyes.
|
| This part is particularly troubling:
|
| > The first four points are essential to any 21st century ruling
| ideology that aims to be both moral and effective
|
| Again, not saying that there isn't wisdom here. But should I
| apply this kind of wisdom using western eyes? I, personally,
| think I shouldn't.
| t-3 wrote:
| I don't really disagree with anything you said, but none of
| this is even presented as "wisdom you can apply to your life".
| It's discussing an ideology for the ruling class, by the ruling
| class. The 0.01% and maybe people who aspire to join them are
| the only audience.
| alganet wrote:
| That's precisely one of the tricks charlatans use.
|
| Western culture likes to foster leadership. Everyone in the
| west aspires to be that 0.01% ruling class, or to project it.
|
| Again, how much this is actual wisdom you can apply to your
| life, and how much this is your mind saying "I want to be a
| leader, this is for leaders, so this is for me!!!"?
|
| It doesn't need to be presented as wisdom per se. Like I
| said, by being old, and being eastern, and being
| philosophical, it suggests wisdom.
|
| It's like Haagen-Dazs. It sounds scandinavian, but it's not.
| It's never presented as "true scandinavian ice cream", but
| people fell for it for a while.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A4agen-
| Dazs#Origin_of_bra...
| TimorousBestie wrote:
| > Western culture likes to foster leadership. Everyone in
| the west aspires to be that 0.01% ruling class, or to
| project it.
|
| Is this a problem you have? You couldn't pay me enough to
| join the "ruling class." The best seem to be misguided,
| idealistic fools; the worst are responsible for thousands
| or millions of deaths, depending on what one feels like
| counting.
| alganet wrote:
| > Is this a problem you have?
|
| Maybe I do to a certain level. It is an awareness of the
| environment in which I grew up.
|
| > You couldn't pay me enough to join the "ruling class."
|
| Yeah, you seek to replace these unfit rulers. Sounds
| familiar?
| TimorousBestie wrote:
| > Yeah, you seek to replace these unfit rulers. Sounds
| familiar?
|
| Clever rhetoric, but false.
| alganet wrote:
| Why is it false?
|
| Please focus on the context. We're discussing an
| ideological text for supposed aspiring leaders (the text
| self-describes as it, which I highlighted).
|
| What compelled you to criticize the ruling class in this
| discussion?
|
| More specifically, what compelled you to talk about
| leadership in contrast to the more analytical objection
| that I raised (skepticism towards the intended
| interpretation of the text)?
| zdragnar wrote:
| > "Ritual" also covers the comportment of people in their
| individual relationships, particularly unequal ones such as
| parent/child and lord/minister, where each side has their own
| particular obligation to the other.
|
| These writings, like those from kongzi (Confucius), mengzi
| (Mencius) and others of the period are tailored to the ruling
| class, because it was a time of turmoil, but were for the
| purpose of fostering a harmonious and peaceful society. As
| such, the philosophy covers everyone in scope, at least in
| parts.
|
| We have unstated, uncodified rituals everywhere in our lives.
| When you go to work, you wear more formal clothing than in
| your daily life. You act respectfully towards your boss, and
| use less profane or vulgar language. This is less true among
| hip SWEs but is generally true in most cultures.
|
| Unlike xunzi's original audience, we won't get much out of
| the writings on ruling, as we don't have the means or culture
| to enforce behavior. We can and do order our own lives,
| however. Some go to church once in awhile out of habit, and
| some revolve their entire lives around their faith such as
| the Amish. Others find more of a middle ground.
| alganet wrote:
| That's not the point.
|
| Why should I take citations from an old text in a blog post
| on how to apply it to the 21st century at face value?
|
| The answer is: I shouldn't.
| zdragnar wrote:
| Ah, if that's the case, then I suggest instead that (as
| we are in the age of AI) you should take absolutely
| nothing you see on the Internet at face value.
| alicemaz wrote:
| for me, the value of the xunzi isn't that it's old or that it's
| eastern, but that it's a sophisticated text which describes a
| system of morality, statecraft, and international relations
| which I largely (but don't entirely) agree with
|
| the period he came from was extremely intellectually fertile,
| and you can find advocates for everything from rational
| totalitarianism to postmodern anarchism, ethical egoism, hippie
| utilitarianism, and jeffersonian pastoralism. I think an "east
| vs west" lens doesn't really capture it well, because the
| codification of what we would consider "eastern" took place
| long after this period, over the course of many centuries
|
| there are things xunzi gets wrong, and after I finish writing
| commentaries on the essays by him I think are most important,
| I'll probably write a critique on that. I think of him more as
| a starting point than an ending point
| alganet wrote:
| How do I even know if the blog post represents this Xunzi
| faithfully? I don't even know how to properly read the source
| material in chinese.
| titanomachian wrote:
| [deleted]
| alganet wrote:
| > should always be respect
|
| How do you know if you're being respectful to a culture you
| don't know?
|
| > Constant studying is the key, don't you think? "Walk softly
| and carry a big book"
|
| If the Buddha thought books were the key, he would have left
| scripture.
|
| Also, if you meet the Buddha, kill him.
|
| I'm not buddhist by the way. I'm repeating old sayings that I
| believe are less prone to being charlatanized.
| titanomachian wrote:
| [deleted]
| alganet wrote:
| Knowledge can be a trap. Do I need this knowledge?
|
| I have a limited life. There's only so many books I can
| read. Why should I guide my attention using a random
| substack post?
| titanomachian wrote:
| It seems like I have offended you. Sorry, that wasn't my
| intention. I'll take down my messages as soon as I figure
| out how to.
| alganet wrote:
| I'm not offended at all.
|
| Perhaps you have good intentions, but some people don't.
| Overselling material is typical of charlatans ("you
| should read more, and go through me to interpret it").
|
| I'm just providing a general skeptical counterpoint to
| the idea that reading a lot is always good. Many have
| done that before me (Buddha, Schopenhauer, etc).
|
| It is kind of ironical that I'm name dropping old
| thinkers here, and providing my interpretation on how to
| read it. There's no way out of this paradox.
| titanomachian wrote:
| "General" skepticism can be a good attitude to have.
| However, take a look again at what you wrote to me. "Why
| should I guide my attention using a random substack
| post?" That was the point we both were making. We both
| know you shouldn't take internet posts as advice for life
| right out of the box, there's no need to be a cynic about
| it. I was agreeing with you all along. I even corrected
| myself about the book thing and tried to make a joke
| about it, but you doubled down. You didn't act like a
| skeptic -- you acted like a bully.
| alganet wrote:
| Looks like you got offended then. Calling skeptics
| bullies is very common, I am used to it.
|
| I stated my intentions from the very beginning, I'm not
| challenging the wisdom, I'm challenging potentially
| charlatan ways of applying it. If you're not doing that,
| there's no reason to get offended.
|
| Also, there was no reason to erase your posts. Now people
| will never know if you were being playful and agreeable
| or not.
| titanomachian wrote:
| Yes, since you were just needlessly acting out your
| skeptic points with someone agreeing with you, I did get
| offended. I believe it's a common thing to feel offended
| when I engage people in good faith and get attacked. I
| feel specially offended when I try to make ammends and
| get attacked again. Anyways, this could have been a great
| conversation. I hope you're happy knowing you have been
| right along. Or have you? Oh, no! But you're a skeptic!
| How can we know now? Tun-dun-duuuuun Bye-bye
| alganet wrote:
| You're putting up a show for others to read.
|
| So am I. Mine is designed to discourage people from
| trusting charlatans. I said it from the very beginning,
| quite honestly.
|
| I don't need to be right, and people don't need to follow
| my example. They just need to think "wait, why am I
| reading this thing? why does it feel compelling? am I
| being tricked?".
|
| Maybe you're not used to skepticism in your life, and you
| usually get the things you want by putting up a show.
| That's actually not bad, but I'm not going to apologize
| for attempting to increase awareness of how charlatans
| work.
| jhedwards wrote:
| I've read quite a bit of classical Chinese philosophy, and in
| my opinion that major piece that is directly translatable to
| Western concerns is the discussion of management principles.
| Confucian and legalist scholars recognized that statecraft was
| fundamentally a management problem, and they included a lot of
| wisdom about that sort of thing in their writings. This
| includes:
|
| - One of the most important jobs of a leader is to find the
| talented people and give them work worthy of their talents
|
| - Large projects start by laying a foundation which will
| facilitate later work
|
| - Resource and disaster management are central problems of
| government
|
| - If someone makes a bad decision, it is probably because they
| didn't see the value of the better decision. Instead of
| criticizing the path they chose, show them the superior value
| of the one they overlooked.
| alganet wrote:
| We brazillians have a popular saying: "muito cacique pra
| pouco indio" (a rough translation would be "too many shamans
| for too few tribesmen"). It's used as a criticism when too
| many people want to be at the helm.
|
| I can related to that wisdom much more than I can relate to
| some old chinese (or old anything) text. I _lived it_ , many
| times.
|
| Maybe there are some important leadership advice in the text.
| But should you really apply it in the 21st century?
| whism wrote:
| I think upon reflection you may discover that indeed many
| generations have _lived it_ many times before you as well
| aspenmayer wrote:
| > We brazillians have a popular saying: "muito cacique pra
| pouco indio" (a rough translation would be "too many
| shamans for too few tribesmen"). It's used as a criticism
| when too many people want to be at the helm.
|
| https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/too_many_chiefs_and_not_enou
| g...
|
| We have that in English too, but considering that the first
| to misidentify native people as Indians spoke Portuguese
| and Spanish primarily(?), the original version of this
| phrase may indeed be something like the one you're familiar
| with. I'm not sure myself, but the history of America is
| much older than the history of the United States, and that
| is probably still something that I need to brush up on
| myself.
| rawgabbit wrote:
| "Ritual" is part of Xun Zi's interpretation of Confucianism.
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xunzi_(philosopher)
|
| Confucianism itself was attacked during the Cultural
| Revolution.
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticize_Lin,_Criticize_Con...
|
| Now, it appears Confucianism is being pushed by the Chinese
| government. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucius_Institute
| alganet wrote:
| Thanks for the interesting historical additions.
|
| I am not, however, approaching this from a political
| perspective.
|
| What I said applies to Indian, Japanese, Native American,
| even Abrahamic and possibly many others. All of these have
| been used in the past by charlatans of various kinds.
|
| The kinds of charlatans I'm referring to are not strictly
| political. Honestly, I was thinking of cheap cults and
| schemes (like I previously illustrated by my Haagen-Dazs
| comparison in another comment).
| PaulHoule wrote:
| In the past you had organized shysters from India who took
| their business to the West like
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prem_Rawat
|
| Today you have more interest in the literature of the East. I'm
| somewhat surprised at how little important Chinese literature
| is available in translation.
|
| In a time when many people are cut off from the ancient history
| of the West for various reasons (look at the 'bro veneration of
| Rome and the knee-jerk anti-Romanism it engenders) I think we
| need as large a cultural database to work from.
|
| Educated-but-ignorant progressives find most of the people who
| ever lived are dead to them because they don't accept 100% of
| the ideas that were fashionable in the last 30 seconds. Go to
| India and the sinosphere and they might find something that
| bypasses their defenses.
|
| Cultural conservatives need to realize they'll hit a ceiling so
| long as they remain stuck on a book that claims God made the
| world 6000 years ago (God is not great!) and cares about a few
| people on a postage stamp in the Middle East more than the rest
| of us -- Confucius could put them on a rational basis that
| people will listen to.
| cindyllm wrote:
| God _is_ great.
|
| Time Cops, arrest this man!
| toasterlovin wrote:
| > "it's old, and it's eastern"
|
| Somewhat of a tangent, but an interesting thought if one is
| inclined toward the old and Eastern: Christianity is old and
| Eastern.
|
| And yet you can find a Christian community practicing very
| ancient rituals right here in the United States. You can
| celebrate those rituals in English, or various ancient
| languages, or a combination of both. Rituals are available
| every day, but the most elaborate and meaningful ones are saved
| for the most convenient day of the week: Sunday.
| buntsai wrote:
| I agree with the author on the centrality of ritual in Xun Zi .
| But I find the author's suggestion that we should invent new
| rituals hubristic and naive.
|
| We Chinese have lost the ritualistic practices that undergirded
| society 2500 years ago. Let us therefore just come up with a new
| set?
|
| Who have been the most successful at inventing new rituals for
| our age? The Axis Powers starting with the 1936 Olympics. Hmm.
|
| The author needs to read the first few pages of Alasdair
| MacIntyre's After Virtue
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/After_Virtue
| sandspar wrote:
| I think we still have rituals. Rituals are often invisible to
| the participants, so it wouldn't surprise me if ours were
| invisible to us. I can't think of strong ones off the top of my
| head. Perhaps social media rituals, like posting certain
| content to "appeal to the algorithm".
| UncleOxidant wrote:
| I definitely think we have rituals that are somewhat
| invisible to us. There are ritualistic aspects to
| consumerism, for example.
| zdragnar wrote:
| Fraternal societies (everything from "greek" societies in
| universities to the Masons and elk lodges) did this quite well
| until recently, collapsing membership along with other communal
| organizations.
| TimorousBestie wrote:
| > Let us therefore just come up with a new set?
|
| This is one of the purposes of Zhong Guo Shi Xian Dai Hua .
| Anon84 wrote:
| There is an argument to be made that the current loss of a
| sense of community and the meaninglessness epidemic can (at
| least in part) be attributed to a lack of shared rituals. S.
| Junger (https://amzn.to/4nSaxfY) and M. P. Some
| (https://amzn.to/4eB5sUW) do a great job of making this point
| from somewhat different (and non-eastern) perspectives.
| justonceokay wrote:
| After virtue is definitely going on my reading list. The idea
| that we use moral language vacuously because we don't share the
| same worldview as the people who invented it is fascinating.
|
| I'm concerned about theories that state that a larger society-
| wide effort has to be made to bring ethics back to life though.
| This is because I'm gay and historically societies haven't
| always had a great outlook on me. Maybe I could live in a world
| that had a coherent telos for gay men that didn't involve them
| being stoned to death.
| indiebat wrote:
| Something I learned over the years, claims of ancient grandeur
| about some esoteric ritual or mythology doesn't make it
| automatically great.
|
| As general idea of rituals go, it doesn't take a genius to figure
| out that (any) ritual gives cravings of certainty of that rigid
| states of mind and that delicious centrality to our passing being
| here on earth (as opposed to cold indifferent randomness of
| life),
|
| It's more fulfilling ritual wise and to fill your ancient wisdom
| shaped hole, if you make a habit to read Shakespeare or Montaigne
| or someone you know and understand (as you can retroactively
| read, question and speak to the author in your head)
|
| I'm having a bit of bad trip for sometime now, having realized
| ancient Indian mythologies are just (different versions of)
| Ancient Greek Homeric myths. That made me question assumptions of
| grandeur we make about "ancient" texts without giving it much
| thought.
|
| P.S : To my fellow western geeks, Marcus Aurelius and Greek and
| western canon is the way if you're searching for ancient wisdom,
| largely speaking eastern philosophy is not that thought provoking
| as "content writers" or Steve Jobs make it to be (evidently),
| it's just that esoteric or exotic to you!
| card_zero wrote:
| Greco-Buddhism relevant?
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism
|
| Possibly important to Western philosophy for inspiring cynicism
| and skepticism.
| eszed wrote:
| I think the other top-level posters (at the moment) are missing
| the meaning "ritual" as defined in the article. (I'm not familiar
| with Xunzi, so can't comment on its overall accuracy to his
| philosophy.)
|
| In the article, "ritual" is almost ridiculously capacious: it
| seems to be any social action or societal assumption that
| conditions our unreflective behavior in any way.
|
| Cross the street against the light when no cars are coming (even
| though there aren't police around)? That's "ritual", by this
| definition - and, anyone who's traveled can tell you that
| behavior varies _widely_ , even amongst superficially-similar
| regions and cultures.
|
| I think it's a useful concept, and it's a pity that discussion
| seems to be being led astray by a confusion with the (mutch
| narrower) conventional definition of the word. Is there a
| similarly pithy term that might apply instead?
| brazzy wrote:
| I think there is actually a large amount of overlap with
| "culture" itself.
| polivier wrote:
| It is hard to explain, but there is something soothing about
| rituals, whatever they may be. Like watching a movie that you
| love for the n-th time, feeling safe in knowing how things will
| play out.
|
| About 20 years ago I bought an expensive bottle of cognac on a
| whim. But then I wasn't sure when to drink it, or under what
| circumstances. After some thought I decided to drink from it only
| on notable occasions. Note that I'm not talking about "special
| occasions" (birthdays, New Year's Eve, etc), although there is
| some overlap between notable and special occasions.
|
| I have defined a notable occasion as being a life-altering event:
| the birth of a child, the purchase of a house, retiring, etc. But
| a notable occasion can also be sad: the death of a parent or a
| friend, a bad medical diagnosis, and so on. I don't drink from it
| every year, and the bottle is still about 2/3 full. Although I've
| mostly drank from it due to the notable occasions being happy,
| some were sad. It turns out that (for me) the mere sight of the
| bottle gives me a feeling of peace. It helps me accept the past,
| but it also helps me dream of the future.
| pessimizer wrote:
| Ritual is an actual waste of resources that demonstrates
| commitment. Someone wastes time, effort, comfort and/or security
| in order to play out a ritual that is explicitly dedicated to a
| particular principle or goal, a ritual often involving symbolic
| rehearsal of the behaviors expected of initiated adherents.
|
| The senseless destruction of one's own resources is a
| demonstration that they will be willing to make the sacrifices
| expected of the initiated. Destroying resources senselessly
| during the process of articulating and rehearsing a set of values
| shown as deserving of sacrifice is a signal of dedication.
|
| Expensive rituals discourage multiple commitments.
|
| Also, sunk cost fallacy is a real motivator. Initiation rituals
| involve spending big before you see any benefit from a thing.
| They make it more likely that you will last until you see
| benefits, which is important for groups that also have to invest
| in initiates. Checkpoint and daily rituals are maintenance of
| that sunk cost.
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