[HN Gopher] The Moat of Low Status
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       The Moat of Low Status
        
       Author : jger15
       Score  : 333 points
       Date   : 2025-07-02 15:08 UTC (3 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (usefulfictions.substack.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (usefulfictions.substack.com)
        
       | MongooseStudios wrote:
       | A more feelings-ey take on the common "get comfortable being
       | uncomfortable" type advice. I enjoyed the perspective shift.
        
       | roenxi wrote:
       | It is a pretty good article, but it slightly misunderstands
       | status. Being the first person on the dance floor is closer to a
       | _high_ status move, because it is taking a leardership position
       | and suggesting what the group should do next. People avoid doing
       | that because they want to copy someone of a higher status than
       | themselves, not because they fear low status. The mechanism
       | nature uses to implement that low status behaviour is nervousness
       | which is often described as a fear of  "standing out", "looking
       | silly" or similar terms, but those are low status concerns. High
       | status people don't really suffer from looking silly, they define
       | what looking silly is by being what they don't do.
        
         | ants_everywhere wrote:
         | I don't know. There's nothing high status about being the
         | _only_ person on the dance floor for 3 songs in a row.
         | 
         | > High status people don't really suffer from looking silly,
         | they define what looking silly is by being what they don't do.
         | 
         | I also don't know about this. Certain high status people are
         | obsessively concerned with whether they look silly. They used
         | to routinely fight to the death over it.
         | 
         | I've been reading the Book of the Courtier this week, and it's
         | clear that even back in the 16th century high status people
         | were very concerned about whether they looked silly, or even
         | whether their dances looked silly.
        
           | roenxi wrote:
           | > I've been reading the Book of the Courtier this week, and
           | it's clear that even back in the 16th century high status
           | people were very concerned about whether they looked silly,
           | or even whether their dances looked silly.
           | 
           | In the context of the situation the people worrying probably
           | weren't the highest status person in the room though. In a
           | room full of princes one of them is going to be feeling
           | pressure because they are low status relative to their peers.
           | That is what instincts key off, not absolute numbers of
           | people that a body can't immediately detect.
        
           | josephg wrote:
           | > There's nothing high status about being the only person on
           | the dance floor for 3 songs in a row.
           | 
           | Simon Sinek says we admire leaders because they take risks on
           | behalf of the tribe. They'll start dancing first knowing
           | they're risking looking silly if nobody joins them. Its
           | impressive because the risk might not pay off.
           | 
           | Being the only person on the dance floor for 3 songs in a row
           | is an interesting move. I think there is something high
           | status about it - in that you're clearly showing that you
           | aren't insecure about how you're seen. I think its
           | polarising. Either it'll make people think a lot less of you,
           | or more of you. Someone who's generally high status will
           | often gain status by doing things like that. And someone
           | who's low status will lose status over it.
           | 
           | People will either say "What an idiot, didn't he realise how
           | goofy he looked?" or they'll say "Oh did you see what Jeff
           | did to get the dance party started? We would never have
           | gotten out there without him. I could never do that!".
           | 
           | It really depends on context.
        
             | twelve40 wrote:
             | > People will either say "What an idiot, didn't he realise
             | how goofy he looked?" or they'll say "Oh did you see what
             | Jeff did to get the dance party started? We would never
             | have gotten out there without him. I could never do that!".
             | 
             | the obvious difference even right in that sentence is that
             | whether that person actually successfully led or miserably
             | failed
        
             | dustingetz wrote:
             | the leader isn't dancing because they want to dance, they
             | are dancing because the people want to dance
        
           | willcipriano wrote:
           | I'd say dancing alone while everyone else watches can be a
           | high status thing. Think Tom Cruise in tropic thunder, he was
           | the only one dancing was he low status?
        
         | danaris wrote:
         | That only works if the person is already _seen_ as high status
         | --ie, if the other people at the dance are already primed to
         | look at them going out on the dance floor and say  "oh, they're
         | dancing; that means it's time to dance."
         | 
         | If the person going out on the dance floor is an unknown, then
         | going out there is a _status risk_. If it pays off, they _can_
         | become seen as high status: a trailblazer, a trendsetter. If it
         | doesn 't, they become (at least for the time being) low status:
         | pathetic, cringe.
         | 
         | Having visible confidence and charisma can _help_ make the
         | gamble more likely to pay off, but it 's not a guarantee.
        
           | roenxi wrote:
           | I mean sure. There is a pretty substantial risk that low-
           | status people will be perceived as low status if they do
           | something where success relies on their status being high. I
           | like to offer advice - low status people probably shouldn't
           | be engaging in status-proving activities if that worries
           | them. They're making a play for higher status; that might not
           | work.
        
             | danaris wrote:
             | ...I think you've missed my point.
             | 
             | In a situation where someone's status is _not already
             | known_ by a majority of people present, engaging in
             | activities that rely on high status are a risk.
             | 
             | No one's status is inherent. It's a purely social construct
             | --and it can vary depending on what group you're with!
             | 
             | If you look at, say, a black person in the mid-20th
             | century, they might be very high status among other black
             | people, but if they go among white people they will be seen
             | as low status.
             | 
             | Leave your own community, go among people who don't know
             | you (assuming there's nothing immediately visible about you
             | that communicates status to them, as above), and whatever
             | status you had before is only as relevant as _you_ make it.
        
         | DavidPiper wrote:
         | When I think of status the way Keith Johnstone describes it in
         | "Impro", being the first one out on the dancefloor is a
         | completely neutral action.
         | 
         | _How_ you do it, and your own physical reaction to those around
         | you while doing it, will reveal whether you're acting from a
         | place of high or low status.
        
         | twelve40 wrote:
         | No, it gets it just right. The implicit assumption in this
         | example is that the first person on the dance floor is _not_
         | quickly joined by hundreds of other people but continues to be
         | awkwardly by themselves for a while, possibly then embarrassing
         | themself by completely failing to attract anyone.
        
         | brabel wrote:
         | What a miserable world people commenting here seem to live in
         | where going out to dance is a sort of status challenging
         | activity?! When I was younger and frequented dance floors,
         | everyone immediately started dancing as soon as the music
         | started playing, wasn't that the point of being there?? Never
         | even occurred to me to fear being the only one dancing. And if
         | did happen I would be wondering what kind of people come here
         | and just stands there.
        
           | sokoloff wrote:
           | There are many events where dancing is not the main point of
           | being there. Wedding receptions being an obvious one, but
           | there are others as well.
        
       | SoftTalker wrote:
       | One thing that helps with this: getting old. You just stop
       | worrying about what other people think of you. All the drama and
       | gossip and cliquish behavior just gets so _boring_.
       | 
       | Why do you think old fat guys walk around naked in the locker
       | room at the gym? They've certainly got nothing to show off, but
       | they don't give a shit.
        
         | aspenmayer wrote:
         | They "let it all hang out" quite literally.
        
           | aspenmayer wrote:
           | https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/let_it_all_hang_out
           | 
           | > (idiomatic) to relax and be carefree
           | 
           | > Synonym: let one's hair down
        
         | vishnugupta wrote:
         | For me this is it.
         | 
         | Whenever someone does "statusy" things I just know how it feels
         | like having done it before so I just move on and don't
         | participate in that theater anymore.
        
         | FlyingSnake wrote:
         | Sometime around mid-30s I stopped caring about what people
         | think about me and it had a great effect on my mental well
         | being. I reconnected with age old Lindy wisdom and started
         | reading classics that helped me with my midlife crisis. Not
         | giving a fuck surprisingly opens up lots of doors.
         | 
         | Status games and tech-bro style hustle culture only leads to
         | burnout.
        
         | matwood wrote:
         | "Sexy indifference" is how I've heard it. Don't be a jerk about
         | it, but also give off the DGAF vibe. It works.
        
         | bisRepetita wrote:
         | Yes. And this is very helpful. If you are young and you suck at
         | something, more people will give you the benefit of the youth
         | and envision you may improve. If you're old and you suck at
         | something, many will think you're just old, and you just suck.
         | "Don't hurt yourself!" So yes, not giving a shit is a very good
         | way to make progress.
        
         | Llamamoe wrote:
         | Or maybe you just done need to.
         | 
         | We live in a society in which older people(or men, at least)
         | get some degree of implicit status and respect - which is
         | probably why our governments are all getontocracies.
        
           | dgfitz wrote:
           | It's never been about gender, it's only ever about money.
           | You'll blow your mind when you pull back a layer and realize
           | this.
           | 
           | Or keep holding time against old men, up to you. ;)
        
       | photon_garden wrote:
       | In a similar vein, I've found helpful:
       | 
       | There's a difference between pain and suffering.
       | 
       | This is true for emotions: feelings people often find
       | uncomfortable (sadness, loneliness, fear) don't have to make you
       | miserable. You can just feel those feelings in your body, pay
       | attention to what they're asking you to pay attention to, and
       | feel deeply okay about it all.
       | 
       | The same is true for physical sensations. Pain is loud so it's
       | really good at drawing our attention, but there's a difference
       | between noticing you're hurt and getting upset about being hurt.
       | 
       | I flipped my bike a couple months ago and scraped myself up
       | incredibly badly, but there wasn't a ton of suffering involved.
       | 
       | The massive adrenaline shot left me shaking, I felt overwhelmed
       | and like I wanted to cry, and the pain was _very_ loud. But I
       | laid on the ground for fifteen or twenty minutes and then walked
       | the fifteen minutes back home. I wouldn't call it fun, but it was
       | totally okay.
       | 
       | (Nick Cammarata has a good Buddhist take on this: suffering is a
       | specific fast, grabby movement you do in your mind called "tanha"
       | and if you pay attention you can learn to do it less.)
        
       | anymouse123456 wrote:
       | I love the repeated phrase, '...and the world wouldn't turn to
       | ash.'
        
       | alshival wrote:
       | I agree. I used to live high class. Then the Mafia came at me. I
       | learned to lay low and appreciate poverty. Also, my ex and I
       | bought a house, but then a richer man came and she kicked me out
       | on Valentine's day. Now I despise wealth and luxury and now date
       | only women at the flea market, cashiers and walmart stockers.
       | Highly recommend. The devil wears Prada.
        
       | vjvjvjvjghv wrote:
       | It's the typical advice coming from high status people. Reminds
       | me of rich people glorifying minimalism because they can buy
       | stuff whenever they need it and throw it away after.
       | 
       | Being truly low status isn't much fun.
        
         | weatherlite wrote:
         | > Being truly low status isn't much fun.
         | 
         | What is truly low status though ? I'd say it is quite rare.
         | Most people are average. Truly low status I guess would be to
         | be homeless or be so disfigured you cannot find a mate -
         | something of that sort. I think many average or even above
         | average people who are not low status want to have more status
         | and that's their real issue - the unmet desire for more power,
         | not being actually low status.
        
       | vasilzhigilei wrote:
       | Related: During solo travelling whenever a thought crosses my
       | mind to do something and my instinctual internal response is
       | discomfort, I try to make myself do it - even if I feel awkward
       | inserting myself or going back.
       | 
       | I've had so many awesome conversations with random interesting
       | people every day during my trips thanks to this. I've gone places
       | I'd otherwise not experience, all for the sake of exciting
       | adventure and pushing my own bounds. The confidence that comes
       | from this is significant.
       | 
       | Also, as a former remote software engineer of 3 years, it has
       | been so energizing to socialize with people again. Best upper
       | that there is.
        
         | djoldman wrote:
         | There's a LOT here. I feel this applies to a lot of decisions.
         | 
         | For instance, if you want to make a product that requires a
         | database and you like building database stuff, do the database
         | stuff last. Do what is difficult first - fail fast.
         | 
         | The easy or default route will always be well known to someone.
        
         | bitwize wrote:
         | Solo travelling was how I formed one of my most salient
         | memories of the "moat of low status", to wit: going to Japan in
         | 2011. Japan is an advanced G7 country, but unlike most of the
         | rest, very few people there speak or understand English. So I
         | was put in the position of having to get by with my shitty
         | Japanese, or attempt to communicate even more futilely with the
         | locals in English and seem like an even bigger, more clueless
         | asshole. I think I gained more levels of Japanese in those two
         | weeks than I did in two _years_ of university education.
        
           | Tade0 wrote:
           | My lifetime best command of Italian was when I lost the keys
           | to my apartment and had to ask around if anyone has seen
           | them.
           | 
           | At that point I was already living part time in Italy for
           | over two years, but since I was working remotely for a
           | company in my country, I hardly had an opportunity to learn
           | the language.
           | 
           | Fortunately Italians appreciate people attempting to speak
           | their language.
        
       | ants_everywhere wrote:
       | Overall I like this framing. But I wanted to comment on this
       | 
       | > In poker, it's possible to improve via theoretical learning....
       | But you really can't become a successful player without playing a
       | lot of hands with and in front of other players, many of whom
       | will be better than you.
       | 
       | This is an interesting example because poker is a game that has
       | existed for many years, and for most of those years everyone
       | learned by doing and was terrible at it.
       | 
       | People who excel at things have typically done more theoretical
       | learning than the average person. Doing is necessary, but it's
       | rarely the main way you learn something.
       | 
       | Either you have a mentor who has already absorbed theory and
       | transmits it to you in digested form, or you have to learn the
       | theory yourself.
       | 
       | But most people get the balance between theory and doing wrong,
       | and most people err on the side of doing because theory is harder
       | and less instantly rewarding.
        
         | jmj wrote:
         | well said
        
         | BrenBarn wrote:
         | I think one aspect of this is that learning from doing often
         | involves more than just doing. It involves paying attention to
         | what you're doing, and what other people are doing, and then
         | reviewing that. This doesn't necessarily have to be
         | "theoretical" learning, but it's deliberate or explicit study
         | as opposed to just hoping to get better by osmosis. It's easy
         | to do something a lot and not learn from it.
        
       | AceJohnny2 wrote:
       | Tangentially, I've been applying something similar, but actually
       | thinking of it as the privilege of _high status_.
       | 
       | As a very senior member of my team, which has a lot of new
       | college grads, I've been asking the "dumb" questions, the
       | "irritating" questions, intentionally speaking up what I believe
       | others may be thingking, specifically because I figure I can
       | afford the social (career) hit.
        
         | no_wizard wrote:
         | In my experience this usually doesn't turn into a career hit,
         | but a career boon. I've been doing this since I was a junior,
         | now I'm a staff engineer, and admittedly I am biased toward
         | myself, but my career growth has been robust and among both my
         | current t team and my professional network I feel I command a
         | fair amount of respect and approachability because of this
         | practice, which always pays off in the long run
        
           | bravesoul2 wrote:
           | There must be much more to it. Staff is a leadership role
           | effectively, right?
        
             | no_wizard wrote:
             | Yes, though that is what I am getting at. It displays good
             | leadership characteristics and reflects positively upon a
             | person who acts this way, having the confidence to ask
             | questions that others don't or won't. It's a positive thing
        
         | matthewdgreen wrote:
         | Never be afraid to ask stupid questions. As someone who spent
         | years doing penetration testing, I can assure you that when
         | stupid questions don't have an obvious answer, someone isn't
         | thinking properly.
         | 
         | Also never be afraid to question people who answer quickly. We
         | spend way too much effort training smart people to answer
         | quickly rather than deeply, and there's almost always a
         | tradeoff between the two.
        
           | akoboldfrying wrote:
           | > Never be afraid to ask stupid questions.
           | 
           | Unfortunately that's the kind of black-and-white advice that
           | seldom applies in the real world. Would you want to see your
           | surgeon asking stupid questions? The pilot of the flight
           | you're on?
           | 
           | You wouldn't, because part of your psychological comfort
           | depends on your perception that people like this -- people
           | whose decisions _really matter_ -- actually know what they
           | 're doing.
           | 
           | ETA: By "stupid questions", I don't mean "basic but obviously
           | important questions". I mean questions that reveal that you
           | don't know something that other people expect you to know,
           | that signal to them (rightly or wrongly) that they may have
           | overestimated you.
        
             | pharrington wrote:
             | I absolutely would want someone who's becoming a surgeon or
             | pilot to ask the "stupid questions." This discussion is
             | about growth and change over time as a person.
        
               | akoboldfrying wrote:
               | > This discussion is about growth and change over time as
               | a person.
               | 
               | Is it? Because the original statement used the word
               | "never" and didn't mention growth and change over time as
               | qualifiers.
               | 
               | The more one attempts to qualify -- that is, restrict the
               | scope of -- the advice, the more one tacitly admits the
               | point I'm trying to make, which FTR is: This advice is
               | not _always_ good advice.
        
             | cthor wrote:
             | Surgeons mark where on the body they're operating. This
             | didn't used to be a standard practice.
             | 
             | Asking "Did I mess up my left and right?" or "Is this the
             | right patient?" feels like a stupid question to ask. I'd
             | certainly rather they ask those questions before operating
             | on me! But turns out it's very hard to get them to do that,
             | so we do surgical site marking instead.
        
               | stevage wrote:
               | That's an excellent example.
        
               | niuzeta wrote:
               | I've been struggling to explain the principle behind the
               | "stupid questions" and your example illustrates the point
               | perfectly. Thank you. I'll be shamelessly stealing this
               | point from now on :)
        
             | nothrabannosir wrote:
             | _> By  "stupid questions", I don't mean "basic but
             | obviously important questions". I mean questions that
             | reveal that you don't know something that other people
             | expect you to know, that signal to them (rightly or
             | wrongly) that they may have overestimated you._
             | 
             | Ok but you didn't bring up the phrase "stupid questions" so
             | it's less about how you define it, and more about a best
             | effort interpretation of how it was originally meant.
        
               | akoboldfrying wrote:
               | I think the person who initially did bring up the phrase
               | must have meant it the way I did, because if they didn't
               | -- if in fact all they meant by it was "basic but
               | obviously important questions" -- then there would be no
               | reason for them to bring it up at all, since 100% of
               | people already agree that you should never be afraid to
               | ask basic but obviously important questions.
        
               | tharkun__ wrote:
               | I don't think that's true. A lot of people are afraid to
               | ask basic questions that everyone would think are
               | important because they'd feel stupid asking them.
               | 
               | The thing is that in many a case those basic questions
               | have not all actually been asked and answered because
               | everyone involved thought the same: it's stupidly simple,
               | I better not ask for fear of being marked dumb.
               | 
               | I get the feeling that it's because of fear of being
               | marked dumb by people like you actually.
               | 
               | But then it often turns out that one of those stupid
               | questions has not been answered sufficiently or people
               | were thinking of completely different answers to the
               | question. So it was a good thing that someone brought it
               | up.
               | 
               | And if the question did already get taken into account
               | and people did have the same answer(s) in mind then if a
               | senior person asked, it will probably just be taken as
               | "this guy knows his stuff and is just dotting Is and
               | crossing Ts" VS a junior "asking dumb questions that
               | everyone should know the answer to, duh!"
        
               | Lewton wrote:
               | > since 100% of people already agree that you should
               | never be afraid to ask basic but obviously important
               | questions.
               | 
               | You don't have a great mental model of how most people
               | think
        
               | SpicyLemonZest wrote:
               | I've had multiple times in my career when people got mad
               | at me for asking basic but obviously important questions.
               | Things like:
               | 
               | * What invariants does this complex transformation
               | preserve? What guarantees does it make about the output?
               | (Come on, we all have a general idea, SpicyLemonZest
               | should read the code if he wants all the details.)
               | 
               | * What's the latency impact of adding this step? (It
               | can't be big enough to matter, stop trying to block my
               | project!)
               | 
               | * Why did the last release advance to production when it
               | wasn't passing tests? (How dare you, our team works so
               | hard, it says right here in our release manual that those
               | test failures count as passing.)
        
             | mrmincent wrote:
             | Stupid questions are far better than stupid mistakes due to
             | not asking those questions.
        
             | matthewdgreen wrote:
             | And this is why it's very important, in the case of a
             | junior engineer, to use your "I'm just starting here"
             | privilege to ask those stupid questions. Or you can be a
             | very senior engineer who has an established reputation, and
             | can get away with asking what sound like "stupid" questions
             | just because people assume you know what you're doing.
             | 
             | We have an expectation that "smart people" should be able
             | to quickly fill in gaps in lightly-explained systems.
             | Sometimes this is good: when you're teaching people a new
             | concept it's _great_ if they can grasp it quickly and
             | approximately. When you 're describing the design of a
             | complex system, you absolutely do not want people to make
             | incorrect assumptions about the parts you're skipping over.
             | 
             | The worst example I've seen was learning that the security
             | of an industrial control platform came down to the fact
             | that the management software wasn't installed by default.
             | The designers had assumed that "knowledge of a software
             | library" was a valid access control mechanism. As the
             | cherry on top, another engineer chimed in that the software
             | was actually installed on the system anyway, just in a
             | different location. It took a pile of incredibly "stupid"
             | questions to surface this knowledge.
        
           | worldsayshi wrote:
           | > I can assure you that when stupid questions don't have an
           | obvious answer, someone isn't thinking properly.
           | 
           | Once you start asking stupid questions on the regular it's
           | quite an interesting experience how often you can ask
           | "stupid" questions to rooms full of senior engineers and sort
           | of get back confused silence. In my experience there's a lot
           | of really important but "stupid" questions that often just
           | gets half-ignored because imagination and prioritization is
           | hard.
        
           | paulpauper wrote:
           | I disagree. Asking stupid questions, even if in good faith,
           | can be mean being banned from communities or losing
           | participation privileges. Such as mathoverflow or
           | stackexhcange.
        
             | dlivingston wrote:
             | Category error.
             | 
             | StackExchange is a massive, global forum which has to react
             | defensively in order to maintain its high-quality
             | knowledgebase against spammers, scammers, and the same
             | questions being posed 10^N times.
             | 
             | The context here is about knowledge dissemination in local
             | teams, groups, or organizations. Completely separate
             | category, levels of trust, motivations, incentives, etc.
        
         | atq2119 wrote:
         | I would go even further and call it the _responsibility_ of
         | high status to ask such questions.
         | 
         | As a high status person, you have an outsized influence on
         | culture whether you like it or not, and an environment in which
         | this kind of question can be asked ultimately leads to better
         | outcomes.
        
         | iamthemonster wrote:
         | Yes - I'm a senior member of my team too (to the extent that
         | I've previously been the team lead of similar teams) and it's
         | so freeing to be able to:
         | 
         | 1. Give plenty of credit to the juniors when they do good work,
         | even if they were reliant on support, with no need to take
         | credit myself
         | 
         | 2. Give up some time working on my own objectives to coach the
         | juniors, even though there's no cost code to book the time to
         | and nobody asks me to do it
         | 
         | 3. Easily say, with zero guilt: "no sorry that can't be done in
         | 2 weeks, that's a 6 week job" or "sure I can do my part of this
         | job but I'm going to need you to commit XYZ other resources if
         | you want it to be a success"
         | 
         | 4. Interpret the rules in the way I think is best for the
         | organisation, not trying to please the person with the most
         | pedantic interpretation
         | 
         | 5. I can produce convincing explanations of how my work
         | performance is delivering value to the organisation (whereas
         | juniors can sometimes work their arse off and get no
         | recognition for it)
         | 
         | I'm also a middle aged white man which seems to confer a lot of
         | unearned trust, but combined with my professional experience I
         | seriously think I have it easier than the juniors in so many
         | ways, and it's my responsibility to give back a bit.
        
           | NetOpWibby wrote:
           | You might need to a new username, you are the good guy.
        
           | matwood wrote:
           | > Give plenty of credit to the juniors when they do good
           | work, even if they were reliant on support, with no need to
           | take credit myself
           | 
           | This is one of the most effective ways to lead because it
           | builds goodwill and trust on the team. It also takes almost
           | nothing away from you because as the senior/leader you will
           | get default credit for most everything. It's always odd to me
           | more people don't realize this.
        
             | eru wrote:
             | Even more so: as a senior, if you don't give extensive
             | credit to the juniors, people will assume that you have
             | some reasons to be insecure. So it's worse for your status.
        
             | brookst wrote:
             | I want to agree but I've observed a contrary pattern a few
             | times: when higher levels of management don't get this
             | principle, and are themselves poor leaders and role models,
             | they can take this at face value and believe that the
             | juniors get _all_ the credit and local leadership is
             | contributing nothing.
             | 
             | Soft skills need to be valued from above in order to be
             | workable strategies in the trenches. And often / usually
             | that's how it works.. but not always.
        
               | threetonesun wrote:
               | Having been there, it's a lose lose situation, where you
               | will constantly be berated for either not mentoring
               | enough or not contributing enough, and it's better to
               | move on than play the shifting winds.
        
           | blueflow wrote:
           | I thought this was social competence.
        
             | 3dsnano wrote:
             | yes, and we all need a good reminder every once in a while
             | of how we can act with humility and integrity!
        
         | anal_reactor wrote:
         | I have understood that the vast majority of people are simply
         | not interested in having conversations, their goal is to
         | perform social dance that scores them social points.
        
         | Ampersander wrote:
         | Sufficient status entirely changes how the act of asking dumb
         | questions is perceived by others. A person with a small title
         | is seen as asking dumb questions because they are dumb. A
         | person with a big title asks dumb questions because they are
         | smart. Of course it's not just title but also age, gender,
         | race, appearance, etc.
        
         | worldsayshi wrote:
         | Yes this is probably the best thing about feeling senior enough
         | and maybe the best measure of seniority. If you dare ask stupid
         | questions you aren't stupid.
         | 
         | But then there are likely also situations when you feel that
         | you ask a bunch of stupid questions but are faced with blank
         | stares because people doesn't understand the context enough for
         | those questions either or they are struggling enough with other
         | problems to even entertain that kind of question.
         | 
         | It can kind of lead to a similar situation to when the math
         | professor at uni jokingly asks a "trivial" math question in
         | front of his students. It's trivial only once you have worked
         | that kind of problem a 1000 times.
        
           | mettamage wrote:
           | > If you dare ask stupid questions you aren't stupid.
           | 
           | I'm the exception to the rule, I always do this and I'm not
           | senior. I make it clear too that I do this.
           | 
           | Ah, I just read the article. Yea, I'm not afraid of the moat
           | of low status. I know what reward it brings, it's easy +EV.
        
         | recursivedoubts wrote:
         | Good!
         | 
         | https://grugbrain.dev/#grug-on-fold
        
         | yieldcrv wrote:
         | I have an account on reddit that leans into extremes,
         | specifically to collect the ad hominem attacks, while wading
         | into benign topics people won't talk about but would like
         | consensus on
         | 
         | because they are afraid the benign topic will cause them to get
         | ad hominem attacked or generally vilified
         | 
         | most people's reddit profiles are their whole identity and they
         | try to stay in moderate "polite company" at the expense of
         | remaining ignorant
        
         | niuzeta wrote:
         | Absolutely. As I get more and more senior, I found myself
         | prefacing a lot of questions with "let me ask some stupid
         | questions" to ask some broad questions or context of the
         | meeting. It can be something seemingly obvious, what's
         | important is it somehow breaks the barrier for others to ask
         | questions. I used to say "I'm going to play my 'new guy' card
         | one more time" when I'm new at a company, but this seems to
         | work more generically, and tends to work in the team's benefit.
        
         | citizenpaul wrote:
         | I wish more people were like you. I can't speak to the past but
         | it seems all anyone in high status positions wants to do is be
         | "guilded" and left alone.
        
         | nuancebydefault wrote:
         | I used to be the one that in big meetings would ask the 'dumb'
         | questions a lot of people undoubtedly had in their mind, but
         | wouldn't dare to pose. I didn't care that some people would
         | find the question stupid, since it would make other people
         | happy for not having to speak up themselves while still getting
         | the info they needed. It would as well make some people happy
         | for establishing a slightly higher place in the pecking order.
         | At least i would gain some karma and maybe even some
         | admiration.
         | 
         | Over the years I did this less and nowadays I mostly only speak
         | when asked so in rather big meetings.
         | 
         | How did this come to be? I found that people who feel that they
         | belong in the higher ranks of the social pecking order
         | sometimes don't like this behavior and actively try to make you
         | look bad. As I'm quite sensitive and am generally a people
         | pleaser who thrives on getting external validation (I'm working
         | on it...), it did not feel good and I feel it wasn't worth the
         | trouble...
        
         | djmips wrote:
         | Indeed. As a senior, I found out that at the last
         | 'retrospective' I was one the only ones who had anything on
         | 'needs improvement' 'saying what I believe others might be
         | thinking' - and during anonymous voting my items did get most
         | of the votes.
        
       | pyrolistical wrote:
       | The way I describe this idea is shamelessness is a super power
        
       | neom wrote:
       | I grew up in Scotland in the 90s, the high school I went to was
       | ill equipped to deal with someone as wide as I am on the
       | spectrums. I was put into the "retarded children" programs. I
       | think this resulted in me always "knowing" I was the dumbest
       | person in the room, and eventually as a survival mechanism I
       | learned to, well... not care. All through college, my 20s and
       | 30s, I always felt like the dumbest person in the room, but I
       | didn't really care I just felt super happy to be in the rooms,
       | and so I said whatever I wanted and asked whatever I wanted. Now
       | that I'm older, I realize what a blessing this ended up being
       | because I've always ended up in rooms full of incredibly
       | brilliant people having decent amounts of money thrown my way to
       | be in them.
       | 
       | Low status isn't so bad.
        
       | FlyingSnake wrote:
       | Everything is a remix.
       | 
       | Previous art: " Willingness to look stupid" by Dan Luu.
       | 
       | https://danluu.com/look-stupid/
       | 
       | Precious discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28942189
        
       | nico wrote:
       | Very similar to the concept of the dip, explained in the book The
       | Dip by Seth Godin
       | 
       | I asked Google to briefly summarize the concept:
       | 
       | > The Dip: It's a term Godin uses to describe the unavoidable and
       | challenging period that occurs after the initial excitement of
       | starting a new project, skill, or career, and before achieving
       | success or mastery. This is the time when things get difficult,
       | frustrating, and many people are tempted to quit
       | 
       | > Embracing the Dip: Instead of being discouraged by The Dip,
       | Godin suggests that dips can be opportunities. They serve as a
       | natural filter, separating those with the determination to
       | persevere from those who are not truly committed. By pushing
       | through the Dip, you can emerge stronger and potentially achieve
       | greater rewards
        
         | OjotCewIo wrote:
         | > unavoidable
         | 
         | Well, no. Depends on the person. For some people and for some
         | new undertakings, especially if those people know themselves
         | _well_ already, they _can_ hit the ground running. I 've seen
         | it.
        
       | charles_f wrote:
       | I started the piano when I was 32. I'm not particularly good at
       | it, I'll never play anything complex, but I love playing and I do
       | my best. My teacher forced me to play in public at some point,
       | and that was probably one of the best things he did, to get me
       | past the point of caring.
       | 
       | That made me realize: no-one cares. You're the center of your
       | life, and it's very important that you succeed, but the very few
       | people who care about you (and whom you should care about) will
       | have the patience, empathy, and admiration for you to be in that
       | "moat", everyone else won't give a shit. If you fuck up, they'll
       | forget about you in a minute. Try to remember about someone
       | trying to do something you like but badly? You can't.
       | 
       | Whenever I see a public piano I seat at it. Sometimes it's just
       | shit and I'm the only one happy I can press keys. Sometimes I
       | manage to play a piece, and a random couple of people are happy
       | about it.
       | 
       | This is a great article, follow its advice. The definition of low
       | status is only the one you set for yourself. Push the shame and
       | embrace it. No one cares anyways
        
       | ramblerman wrote:
       | Love the concept but "the moat of low status" is a poor name.
       | 
       | It implies a defensive structure. I.e the advantage I get out of
       | low status.
       | 
       | Op even refers to the concept of moats as used in business, but
       | clumsily hand waves the concept to fit her own.
       | 
       | The cage of low status would be more apt
        
         | derektank wrote:
         | Being low status can be psychologically protective in some
         | ways. One can opt into being low status as a defense mechanism,
         | "I'm afraid of genuine failure, but by choosing artificial
         | failure from the start, I can avoid the emotional pain of
         | genuine failure."
        
       | ozim wrote:
       | It is super important to have "no asshole zones". We can joke
       | about "safe space" like "South Park" did but at least not having
       | your work shredded to parts with snarky comments goes far.
       | 
       | I started posting on LinkedIn this year. I was afraid all the
       | time there will be assholes coming out of woods to just say
       | "you're an idiot take this post down" - it happened once in 6
       | months so not bad. Other asshole was reposting my stuff picking
       | on the details basically making content out of me.
       | 
       | Blocking was effective and shadow banning is great as those most
       | likely moved on not even knowing I blocked them.
        
         | layer8 wrote:
         | I would reconsider why you would want to post on LinkedIn in
         | the first place.
        
           | meesles wrote:
           | There it is!
        
       | zeroCalories wrote:
       | I know a lot of people as described in this post, but it's never
       | been an issue for me. I'm much more concerned about earning
       | status, then embarrassing myself. I remember when I first started
       | BJJ I was getting crushed, but it was still fun. But once I had
       | been doing it for a year getting submitted stung bad because I
       | should have known better. In the end I think the advice about
       | accepting embarrassment is still good, because if you're pushing
       | yourself and trying to perform at a high level you will never
       | stop failing and embarrassing yourself.
        
       | hiAndrewQuinn wrote:
       | "Cate Hall is Astera's CEO. She's a former Supreme Court attorney
       | and the ex-No. 1 female poker player in the world."
       | 
       | This article is countersignaling. It also happens to be
       | directionally correct.
       | 
       | There is absolutely nothing low status about being present-day
       | Cate Hall. But present-day Cate Hall probably tried and pushed
       | through a lot of really tough stuff in part because yesteryear
       | Cate Hall had this mindset. It so happened that she also had the
       | talent to actually end up in impressive places.
       | 
       | The real lesson one should probably take from a person like this
       | is that learning to eyeball your own strengths and weaknesses
       | _before_ you start down the long path of honing them is really
       | important. If you are low status now but you have reason to
       | believe you will become much higher status in the future by
       | persevering, then persevere. If not...
        
         | baxtr wrote:
         | Encouraging people to be low status in order to have high
         | status is a genius way to create a new status game.
        
         | FlyingSnake wrote:
         | Be wary of imitating high status people who can afford to
         | counter signal.
         | 
         | https://www.robkhenderson.com/p/the-perils-of-imitating-high...
        
         | ImaCake wrote:
         | Thanks for pointing out that it is counter signalling, but I
         | would also say that it is good advice regardless. It's like an
         | efficient highway - the road is straight and unadorned because
         | looking "scientific" and sensible is how you convince
         | government and the public it is a good idea. The fact that
         | being efficient is also a net good is almost a side effect but
         | still not to be ignored!
        
         | e1g wrote:
         | She's a VC-backed founder who went to Yale, and her very first
         | job was at Goldman. What she's describing in the article is not
         | "low status" because she hadn't experienced that. But the
         | feeling she describes reveals what she _thinks_ "low status" is
         | - embarrassment.
        
           | samdoesnothing wrote:
           | It's relative, you can be low status in one group and high
           | status in another and be the exact same person.
           | 
           | Sounds like from the online bullying she suffered from at
           | Yale, she was low status there.
        
             | jagged-chisel wrote:
             | I'd like to understand the thinking of those who downvoted
             | and flagged this comment.
        
               | Rexxar wrote:
               | It was "[dead]" or "[flagged]" ? If it was the first it
               | was automatic and probably caused by previous comments,
               | not by this one. New accounts (green name) can be auto-
               | flagged quite fast if they have downvotes or reports on
               | multiple comments.
        
           | hiAndrewQuinn wrote:
           | Getting into Yale is indeed pretty good prima facie evidence
           | that you have what it takes to be high status in the future,
           | in quite a few domains. Persevering is great advice for most
           | people along most trajectories who get into Yale.
        
             | kragen wrote:
             | It's not just a question of potential.
             | 
             | Getting into Yale directly confers high status, and it is
             | fairly well gated by other status-related tests: honors
             | classes and private schools nudge you to learn the kind of
             | thinking that does well on the SAT, not the kind of
             | thinking that keeps you out of danger, as well as pushing
             | you to AP exam prep classes; and access to extracurricular
             | activities is gated both implicitly (by school choice) and
             | explicitly by disciplinary measures for low-status
             | behaviors. Rednecks like JD Vance are a tiny minority of
             | the Yale entering class, and lower-status groups like
             | illegal immigrants are as far as I know completely absent.
             | 
             | Also, I think the idea that there is something that it
             | takes to be high status is incorrect. Social status is its
             | own phenomenon with its own rules, and sometimes it's
             | pretty random: you get a good job against the odds, or a
             | good spouse, or you narrowly escape a disabling accident.
             | You could argue that "what it takes" in such cases is luck,
             | but graduating from Yale doesn't indicate that you will be
             | lucky in the future, only of things that have happened
             | before that.
        
               | hiAndrewQuinn wrote:
               | >the idea that there is something that it takes to be
               | high status is incorrect
               | 
               | >Getting into Yale directly confers high status
               | 
               | Don't these two ideas contradict one another? It sure
               | sounds like we have at least one known pathway to
               | becoming high status, and that is getting into Yale.
        
               | kragen wrote:
               | No, "something that it takes to be high status" would be
               | some characteristic (in this context, one that is stable
               | over time) that was _necessary_ for high status, while
               | something that  "directly confers high status" is
               | something that is _sufficient_ for high status. It 's
               | entirely possible for something to be sufficient and
               | nothing to be necessary. You're making the basic logical
               | error of confusing [?] with [?].
        
           | joe_the_user wrote:
           | These thing aren't talked about much. But think the proper
           | way to discuss is that "social status" exists among groups of
           | rough peers and "social position" better describes someone's
           | privileges of wealth, education and employment relative to
           | society as a whole.
           | 
           | Just as an example, a whole lot of dysfunctional dynamics
           | happening lately seem to involve billionaires jockeying for
           | status with other billionaires.
           | 
           | Edit: I'd recommend Paul Fussel's book Class since it
           | involves discussion of these two dynamics.
        
           | __turbobrew__ wrote:
           | From my research the whole Alvea thing was an Effective
           | Alturism cooked up project that only lasted 3 years and made
           | no money, and then now they are at Astera which seems to be
           | some rich persons plaground where they throw money at
           | researchers to do "stuff". What that stuff is, I don't know.
           | 
           | The real moral of this story is you should get rich eccentric
           | friends from the Ivy League elite who throw money at you to
           | do AGI. Like you really think this company of like 40 people
           | is going to crack AGI?
           | 
           | Man I should cross the moat and get some rich friends.
        
         | posix86 wrote:
         | Talented people don't have to go through as much embarrassment
         | as others because they learn faster than normal & will impress
         | through that, even if they're worse at what they're doing.
         | Also, once you are truly good at something, it's easier to be
         | bad at something else. But not disagreeing with her.
        
         | nine_k wrote:
         | _A: Actually, money isn 't really important._
         | 
         |  _B: It must feel good to say so when you have the money._
         | 
         |  _A: It does._
         | 
         | (Quoting from memory, can't remember the movie.)
        
         | joe_the_user wrote:
         | _This article is countersignaling. It also happens to be
         | directionally correct._
         | 
         | As far as I can tell, you jargony phrase means that this is
         | something like the humble part of "humble bragging". I'd
         | disagree, I think the article gives honest good advice, an
         | honest "meta-analysis" of social status and jumping into new
         | things. It's "actionable", something you can do.
         | 
         | I would add that its advice for the sort of person who is
         | normally always thinking about and fairly competent with social
         | status and is held back from new skills by this. I personally
         | was never too worried about social status and have learned
         | massive new things by just being willing to try them but wound-
         | up bitten by my ignoring of status. My advice for my younger me
         | is to be strategic about publicly ignoring status but keep
         | going into private.
         | 
         | Also statements like "she succeeded 'cause she was tough" are
         | meaningless as advice or actionable/verifiable statements.
         | Maybe she succeeded 'cause she had a bunch of strategies like
         | the one she outlines, maybe she succeeded 'cause of good luck,
         | maybe she succeed by family positions, maybe "luck",
         | "toughness" or "mojo" did it.
        
       | reactordev wrote:
       | I love this.
       | 
       | People have always asked me: Why don't you have a big house or
       | <status-symbol-x> or <status-symbol-y>?
       | 
       | My response is always: Because I could use that capital to try
       | something new. Granted, there were a few times I wish I had the
       | house because of the market bumps but stocks have made up for it.
       | 
       | People are scared of failing, scared of losing the precarious
       | position they have built up over the years. The housing market
       | has made that 10x worse with the prices but humans _need_ to try
       | different things, learn different things. You can't just do one
       | thing for 70 years. My father had 4 careers, 3 wives, 5 children
       | throughout his lifetime. 2 degrees. I've had 1 wife, 1 child, 1
       | career, 1 degree, because the world is 100x more expensive now.
       | This is what prohibits us from finding our ikigai.
        
       | jhassell wrote:
       | Great article. I've come to see that feeling embarrassed can
       | actually be a kind of luxury. When I'm around people with
       | disabilities--many of whom might simply hope to reach a point
       | where embarrassment is even possible--it reminds me how much we
       | take that experience for granted. In that light, embarrassment
       | itself can feel like a privilege. It calls to mind 2 Corinthians
       | 12:9: "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made
       | perfect in weakness."
        
         | bmicraft wrote:
         | I'm sorry but I don't quite get what you mean here. Could you
         | maybe put it in simpler terms?
        
           | jhassell wrote:
           | Sure. Maybe feeling embarrassed is a sign that our pride
           | sometimes carries more weight than it should. It's easy to
           | forget that many people--especially those who are
           | disadvantaged or disabled--might not even have the
           | opportunity to feel embarrassed in the same way. Perhaps it's
           | a gentle reminder to let go a little of our need to protect
           | our self-image.
        
       | stego-tech wrote:
       | I genuinely needed this piece today, specifically. Thanks for
       | sharing it.
       | 
       | I've been trying to live more authentically in general these past
       | few years, making tiny little inroads one step at a time towards
       | being someone I've consciously chosen, rather than merely exist
       | in a safe form that doesn't risk alienating others (or rather, in
       | a form I don't _perceive_ to alienate others - obviously I am not
       | a mindreader). Think classic tech neutral outfits (jeans and
       | neutral shirts, neutral shoes, neutral socks, the sole piece of
       | color being the Pride band of my Apple Watch). OCD hurts the
       | process of trying to live authentically, because it 's doing its
       | damndest to ensure I _never_ encounter harm.
       | 
       | So last night, after coming down from some flower and watching
       | the evening roll in, I decided to put on an outfit I'd put
       | together. All sorts of bright colors: neon green and black
       | sneakers, bright pink shirt, sapphire blue denim jean shorts,
       | bleached white socks - and went for a walk. OCD was INCREDIBLY
       | self-conscious that I would stand out ( _duh_ ), court the wrong
       | sort of attention, or somehow find myself in trouble...for
       | wearing things I see everyone else wear without any issue
       | whatsoever.
       | 
       | The moat is real, and the mind wants to build barriers to
       | minimize perceived harms; for neurodivergent folks, it can be
       | downright crippling. Wallflowering at parties, never gambling on
       | colors or bold styles, never taking on new challenges for risk of
       | failure. It results in a life so boring, sterile, and
       | uninteresting - to yourself, and to others.
       | 
       | So...yeah. I got nothing to add other than my personal nuggets of
       | experience. Really glad this piece came past on HN today, I think
       | a lot of folks are going to enjoy its message.
        
         | drst wrote:
         | I'm glad you're happy.
         | 
         | I do wish we could stop saying "moat".
         | 
         | Most of us aren't living in ancient forts we need to protect.
        
           | jmathai wrote:
           | As it pertains to this article, what we are desperately
           | trying to protect is our fragile ego and avoiding
           | embarrassment is the moat to do so.
        
           | bitbasher wrote:
           | > Most of us aren't living in ancient forts we need to
           | protect.
           | 
           | Speak for yourself!
           | 
           |  _raises draw bridge_
        
       | k__ wrote:
       | Tangential related:
       | 
       | I learned in a class on design that you should work with what you
       | already know.
       | 
       | If you don't know about colors, then do it in grey scale, if you
       | don't know about that, do it in black and white.
       | 
       | The best ideas come from working with constraints.
       | 
       | While highly skilled designers/musicians/developers/writers/etc.
       | do this despite being able to work outside of the constraints, a
       | beginner can do it too. Sure, they can't choose the constraints
       | as freely as a pro, but they can make work with what they got and
       | it can lead to interesting results.
       | 
       | This is also a good way to approach new things without
       | embarrassing yourself, as you don't try to impress with skills
       | you don't mastered 100% yet.
        
       | fat_cantor wrote:
       | the math version of this idea:
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41566446
        
       | lo_zamoyski wrote:
       | It comes down to pride and an insecure or poorly formed
       | conscience.
       | 
       | Obviously, you are going to be bad at something when you begin.
       | What did you expect? Know it, accept it, and don't pretend
       | otherwise. Who expects a beginner to be good? And why are you
       | afraid of someone, I don't know, laughing at you or being
       | condescending? What kind of prick would do that unless they were
       | envious of your courage or insecure in their own abilities?
       | 
       | The fact is that many people spend their entire lives putting up
       | appearances, and with time, it becomes harder and harder for them
       | to do anything about it, because the whole facade of false
       | identity would have to crumble. They live is a state of fear of
       | being outed and shamed. This is a recipe for mental illness.
       | 
       | This matter situation reminds me of the parable about the
       | Emperor's new clothes. The boy's potency comes from stating the
       | obvious. You find something similar in professional life: the
       | person who is like that boy in a room full of posers and
       | blowhards is a threat to pretense, because he states the obvious.
       | In that way, he is more in touch with reality, even if it is at
       | such a basic level. This is a great catalyst for change in an
       | organization, if the insecure and prideful don't dig in their
       | heels.
       | 
       | The truth will set you free, and where there is good will, there
       | is no fear. And learn to endure suffering.
        
       | caseysoftware wrote:
       | Good lessons.
       | 
       | Over the past few years, I've managed to convince (and
       | occasionally demonstrate) to my kids that "you'll be bad at
       | anything new" and that they only way to get better is practice.
       | 
       | As a result, when other kids have made fun of them for failing,
       | they rebut with "I've never done this before! I'll get better!"
       | which is awesome.. being able to handle failure, acknowledge it
       | as failure, and then figure out how to get better.
       | 
       | If you can get and hold onto that mindset, it's kinda awesome.
        
         | kaycebasques wrote:
         | "Sucking at something is the first step towards being kinda
         | good at something." --- Jake the Dog
        
           | OjotCewIo wrote:
           | Counterpoint: you'll stop enjoying a new hobby, like learning
           | to play the guitar, when you decide to get serious about it.
        
             | unclad5968 wrote:
             | This hasnt my been my experience. I continue to love
             | basketball despite being bad at it for years regardless of
             | how much "serious" training I do.
        
             | dceddia wrote:
             | If it turns into treating it as a "should" then my
             | experience is yes, definitely, that's a death knell for
             | basically anything. Without the "should" it continues to be
             | fun. The trick is threading that needle.
        
               | SlowTao wrote:
               | It is said that God wrote the entire language for to use
               | in a book and that we shall model ourselves off of it.
               | Once it was done, God turns his back on the book and
               | Satan sneaked in and added two words - "Should" and
               | "Aught".
        
             | johnfn wrote:
             | Been writing code for 25 years, 15 professional. Still
             | enjoy it just as much.
        
             | esteth wrote:
             | In my experience this is more related to treating the hobby
             | like a chore or job instead of doing it for the fun of it,
             | even though you're bad at it.
             | 
             | I think the relationship is kinda the other way around -
             | you'll feel like your hobby is "serious" when you stop
             | having fun with it.
        
         | RaftPeople wrote:
         | I don't remember who said this but I really like this quote:
         | "What would you do if you knew you would not fail?"
        
           | moomoo11 wrote:
           | win
        
           | SlowTao wrote:
           | I would argue there is no way to make it that you do not fail
           | in some way. ;)
        
         | HellDunkel wrote:
         | Chapeau- i'll copy what you did here.
        
         | OjotCewIo wrote:
         | > you'll be bad at anything new
         | 
         | I disagree. Innate talent / affinity and transferable
         | experience exist. I agree with "10% inspiration and 90%
         | perspiration"; however, given equal effort, people with innate
         | talent are going to win over people with no or less talent by a
         | wide margin. This applies to everything. Gym / sports
         | performance, muscle growth, work that needs IQ, work that needs
         | EQ, life events that need resilience, general happiness,
         | everything. Genetics is hugely definitive.
         | 
         | And I'm convinced some people bounce back more easily after a
         | failure because failure is genuinely less hurtful for them.
         | They don't need to "hold onto that mindset"; they just have it.
        
           | majormajor wrote:
           | > I disagree. Innate talent / affinity and transferable
           | experience exist. I agree with "10% inspiration and 90%
           | perspiration"; however, given equal effort, people with
           | innate talent are going to win over people with no or less
           | talent by a wide margin.
           | 
           | I think you are misreading the person you're replying to.
           | 
           | They aren't saying "everybody can be equally good at
           | everything with practice."
           | 
           | They're saying "don't quit just because you aren't great on
           | day 1."
           | 
           | First time playing basketball even if you've played soccer a
           | ton and have good general athletic ability? Don't expect to
           | hold your own if joining a game being played by people who
           | play every week.
           | 
           | First time doing woodworking even if you have an electrical
           | engineering background and the methodicalness is not foreign
           | to you? Don't expect your first table to be stunning. Still
           | gonna be bad at it compared to people with more practice!
           | 
           | Honestly, if you think you're great at something the first
           | time you try it, you probably just don't know what being
           | great at it actually looks like. (It could even be "similar
           | result, but better in some hidden ways, and done in 1/10th
           | the time.")
           | 
           | But if you believe that you'll get better at it with
           | practice, you'll keep doing it.
           | 
           | If you believe "guess I just don't have innate ability here"
           | you'll give up and never get good.
        
             | OjotCewIo wrote:
             | > I think you are misreading the person you're replying to.
             | [...] They're saying "don't quit just because you aren't
             | great on day 1."
             | 
             | That's not what they're saying. They literally wrote,
             | "you'll be bad at anything new". That's what I disagreed
             | with. There are people who are _great_ at something new
             | (for them), and catch up with (and surpass) old-timers
             | incredibly quickly. And their learning experience -- not
             | that it doesn 't take effort -- is generally enjoyable,
             | exactly because they succeed from very early on. I've
             | witnessed this with at least two colleagues. Entered
             | completely new fields (one of them repeatedly), and in a
             | few weeks, surpassed old-timers in those fields. These are
             | the guys who tend to be promoted to senior principal or
             | distinguished software engineers.
             | 
             | > First time playing basketball even if you've played
             | soccer a ton and have good general athletic ability? Don't
             | expect to hold your own if joining a game being played by
             | people who play every week.
             | 
             | Do expect to mostly catch up with them in 1-2 months! (In
             | my high school class, the soccer team was effectively
             | identical to the basketball team.)
             | 
             | > and done in 1/10th the time
             | 
             | I agree with this; yes. But my point is that, for some
             | people, _approaching_ such a short completion time, with
             | comparable results, is a relatively fast, and enjoyable,
             | process. They don 't plateau as early, and don't struggle
             | from the beginning.
             | 
             | > If you believe "guess I just don't have innate ability
             | here" you'll give up and never get good.
             | 
             | Correct, but it doesn't imply that "giving your all" _does_
             | make you good (at an absolute scale). You will no doubt
             | improve relative to your earlier self, but those advances
             | may not qualify as  "competitive", more globally speaking.
             | Giving up (after serious work) may be objectively valid.
             | For some people, persevering is the challenge (= lack of
             | willpower, persistence); for others, accepting failure /
             | mediocrity, and -- possibly -- finding something better, is
             | the challenge.
        
               | rzzzt wrote:
               | Hah, I wrote almost the same thing in a sibling reply
               | with one difference, plateauing for the hit-the-ground-
               | runners may come earlier than the first-learn-how-to-
               | walkers.
        
             | rzzzt wrote:
             | People exist that pick up that chisel / basketball /
             | soldering iron and do something really impressive with it
             | after being shown 0..2 times. They might have horrible
             | technique, not know the little tricks and shortcuts,
             | plateau quickly etc., but their experience of doing the
             | thing is not a series of failures until they get reasonably
             | OK at it, rather increasing levels of wins.
        
               | immibis wrote:
               | Those people are still growing the limit of their ability
               | just like you. They're just trying things slightly under
               | their current limit* instead of slightly over.
               | 
               | * Not an electronics pun
        
       | dixong wrote:
       | Based on her profile picture I find it extremely hard to believe
       | anyone made fun of her appearance unless one is being compared to
       | a super model.
        
       | timewizard wrote:
       | You have "social anxiety." You are not in a "moat of low status."
       | The status is purely in your own mind and not something
       | calculated and assigned to you by the world.
       | 
       | Another CEO flying at 30,000' missing the forest for the trees.
        
       | djmips wrote:
       | The moat is filled with people pointing at you and yelling 'Don't
       | quit your day job'
        
       | lazyeye wrote:
       | Scott Galloway talks about this same concept here
       | 
       | https://youtu.be/rKOx5qlLyaA
        
       | 77pt77 wrote:
       | The real moat of low status is something completely different.
       | 
       | It consists on punishing people with low status when they
       | objectively succeed and doing so brutally if they excel.
       | 
       | This entire post sounds like the complaints of someone with
       | extreme privilege that lived a completely sheltered life.
       | 
       | In fact, the title of this blog, "Useful fictions", plays exactly
       | into that.
        
       | intellectronica wrote:
       | A few extra tricks that worked for me (you can alternate
       | depending on what fits best in the moment):
       | 
       | - Embrace the role of imposter. Instead of whining about imposter
       | syndrome, accept a-priori that you are an imposter. The game is
       | to survive as long as possible as an imposter in a world full of
       | naturals. You lose not when you are made out, but when you give
       | up.
       | 
       | - Embrace being a useless git. You're an idiot, you have no
       | talent whatsoever, you don't have the skill yet, and there's no
       | hope you'll ever acquire it. So, no pressure, you're only
       | playing. Anything beyond failing completely is a bonus.
       | 
       | - Commit to "open to goal". You are starting today and you'll go
       | on for as long as it takes. Possibly until you die. There's no
       | deadline and no expected speed. You're just being stubborn and
       | refuse to stop trying even in the face of evidence that you have
       | no chance.
       | 
       | - Be delusional about "the hack". You are special and you've
       | discovered a hack that makes it easier and faster for you to
       | acquire the new skill and apply it successfully than it is for
       | most people. All you have to do is go through the motions, "the
       | hack" will take care of things.
       | 
       | - Fight injustice. You are _entitled_ to have this skill and the
       | success it affords people, it is your god-given, inalienable
       | right. But the world / family / society / boss / ex / whatever
       | screwed you and you've been deprived of what's rightfully yours.
       | Fuck them, you are now on a quest to acquire by brute force what
       | you deserve.
        
       | andy99 wrote:
       | There's some survivorship bias here. You often just end up
       | looking like an idiot or being really bad at something. I agree
       | that embarrassment shouldn't be a barrier but one should be aware
       | of the flip side. "Putting yourself out there" mostly results in
       | humiliation and rejection. Focusing on being thick skinned and
       | resilient is maybe more important than imagining you just need to
       | get over embarrassment.
       | 
       | If you try new things, you may go bankrupt, get laughed at or be
       | humiliated in a much worse way, be regularly rejected or talked
       | down to, etc. It's not just about being brave for a minute. And
       | in the end you might never make it.
        
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