[HN Gopher] What I learned gathering nootropic ratings (2022)
___________________________________________________________________
What I learned gathering nootropic ratings (2022)
Author : julianh65
Score : 104 points
Date : 2025-07-02 13:29 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (troof.blog)
(TXT) w3m dump (troof.blog)
| Workaccount2 wrote:
| Another win for exercising.
|
| It's crazy to me how many people have miserable health, complain
| about their body and mental state endlessly, but still put up any
| roadblock they can think of to avoid exercising of any form.
| kccqzy wrote:
| It's bad habits from a younger age. I remember in my 20s, I
| didn't need to exercise at all and yet my body felt perfect.
| And so was my mental health. It was after several years of
| sedentary lifestyle that it clicked for me that my health was
| declining and exercise was needed to restore it. I suspect this
| could be the case for many: you don't need exercise and your
| body remains in a tip top shape when you are young.
| ed wrote:
| Remember you probably were exercising until about 18, since
| it's required by most schools.
| balfirevic wrote:
| "Physical education" would be hilarious if it weren't sad.
| It's a pretty impressive feat that it managed to
| simultaneously:
|
| - make me spend quite a lot of time on something exercise-
| related (since it was "opposite shift" of regular school
| classes)
|
| - had me do next to zero actual exercise
|
| - teach me literally nothing about how exercise or training
| works
|
| - make me hate everything related to exercise for quite a
| few years
|
| Worse than a waste of time, it was actively harmful.
| omnicognate wrote:
| I have chronic fatigue problems, which exercise exacerbates. I
| swim 3 times a week, but have to carefully regulate the
| intensity or it triggers post-exertional malaise.
|
| The exercise is important for my general health but it isn't
| positively correlated with my cognitive functioning. Quite the
| opposite.
| jassyr wrote:
| I'm in a similar situation but with multiple sclerosis for
| over 15 years. I love to exercise, however on some days a
| medium-intensity cardio session will leave my brain
| functioning at like 50% which is not great for my job. I
| gotta work hard to make sure my gas tank has enough for all
| the tasks planned for that day. My neurologist calls it
| Energy Management.
| spacemadness wrote:
| Wow that sounds tough to deal with. I'm sorry you're
| dealing with that.
| diamondage wrote:
| Tried creatine?
| jassyr wrote:
| Creatine does help some. Staying hydrated and good sleep,
| too.
| its_down_again wrote:
| I used to have plenty of energy running 40-50miles per week,
| but when I ramped up to 80mpw I started nodding off in my
| chair by 1 PM. Then despite the higher mileage and more
| intense training, my race times slipped. My half went from
| 1:23 to 1:28, and I felt drained, irritable and angry unless
| I took a long break. After digging in, I learned that very
| high mileage can deplete iron levels. Once I focused on
| improving my iron absorption, I finally got my energy back
| and everything clicked. Even while holding 80+ mpw for the
| upcoming SF Marathon, I still knocked 5% off my Bay to
| Breakers time (48:51 this year) and cut my 5K PR from 19:17
| to 18:37.
| ramoz wrote:
| I think you need to provide perspective on your experiences
| when you don't swim 3x a week. Over a valid period,say, ~3mo
| or so.
| lend000 wrote:
| I had long covid which manifested as post-exertional malaise
| and general brain fog, and which was not improving for 2
| years, and I essentially solved it with a combination of a
| low sugar paleo diet (starting as an autoimmune protocol diet
| for a few weeks to determine some other things that caused
| flare ups for me like nutritional yeast and capsaicin), lots
| of walking, light and increasing exercise (especially outdoor
| exercise), and a dedication to sleep hygiene. Many of which
| were referenced in the post.
|
| It's a ton of work at first but it's completely worth it --
| post-exertional malaise sucks.
|
| Other things that helped me personally: daily cold plunges up
| to the chin (so you feel it in your vagus nerve), HRV reset
| breathing exercises, and daily meditation. Wish you the best
| of luck.
| taeric wrote:
| I think the big road block for many people is that exercise
| itself also hurts?
|
| I know that is a hurdle I have with my kids. They complain that
| jogging/running hurts. It is hard to convince people that that
| never really changes, and that it also hurts for the people
| that are doing it every day. Obviously acute pains are a
| different thing, but there is a reason recovery is a vital part
| of exercise. We all have to recover from pushing limits. You
| can't expand your limits without pushing, though.
| gavinray wrote:
| You have to find some sort of exercise/movement that you both
| enjoy (or at least, don't hate), and doesn't cause you
| physical discomfort.
|
| Otherwise, you'll never stick with it.
|
| I hate jogging, I have forced myself to do daily jogging for
| several month periods, but I never stick with it.
|
| For me, incline treadmill at maximum incline and a moderate
| pace gets my heart-rate up and doesn't feel nearly as awful.
| taeric wrote:
| My trick was to find a way to obligate myself to finish.
| Biking to work was a huge win for my fitness. Even on days
| I didn't really want to bike a few more miles at the end of
| the day, I still had to get home.
|
| For my kids, I'm trying to convince them that a lot of the
| things they find uncomfortable are things they just aren't
| used to. Ergonomics have fooled a lot people into thinking
| "feels right" is the initial state of something, I think?
| You still have to train yourself to get used to a lot of
| things.
| IncreasePosts wrote:
| Jogging is for adults...if they're kids they'd be far better
| served by playing sports or something. You'll run a mile or
| two in a soccer or frisbee game without even trying, it will
| be fun, and you'll socialize
| taeric wrote:
| Fair, "kids" is including high schoolers that were
| considering cross country running classes. :D
| ashdksnndck wrote:
| It's possible to do exercise with just as much cardio
| intensity as running but without impact/pain. Cycling on a
| trainer bike (eg. Peloton) is one popular choice.
| taeric wrote:
| And for many people, being out of breath is what they will
| cite as hurting. Indeed, pushing to exhaustion is form of
| pain. Whether you do it over a long period or short just
| leads to different forms of pain.
|
| And agreed that acute pain should take special care when
| folks are doing something. But the research is getting
| somewhat clear that cushioned shoes and such can be
| awkwardly counter to avoiding problems.
| cyberax wrote:
| Try walking instead of jogging. If you want more challenge,
| try walking up on an incline (a natural or on a treadmill).
|
| It's much easier on your joints, and you can adjust the
| difficulty gradually.
| taeric wrote:
| Apologies that my example invited specific consideration.
| Long hikes are also somewhat "painful" for people that
| don't do them often. Walking to the bus stop is something I
| have seen many kids avoid, if they have the option.
|
| That is, I'm not hurting in my joints from running. My
| pains there will be much more attuned to how hard it is for
| me to "push" at speeds. That said, pushing at any speed is
| how I have managed to increases the speeds that I can push.
| butlike wrote:
| The most important thing is not to "blow" your endocrine
| system. If you overload it your body will subconsciously
| avoid exercise. The full body max-weight workout will feel
| good the first time, then soon, mysteriously, you won't want
| to go back to the gym.
|
| My suggestion is to stop your workout a little before you
| want to, almost as if you're disappointed it's over now,
| which will make you want to go to the gym the next day more
| consistently.
| taeric wrote:
| Ish? I can similarly claim that the most important part of
| any exercise is showing up. Surprisingly apt for any work.
| Just showing up is obnoxious in how effective it is.
|
| Similarly, for many nootropic reports, "just doing
| something" is far more effective than people give credit.
| Especially if it is a choice to do something. Successfully
| executing one choice seems to confer some success at
| executing on the next one. (Note, successful execution does
| not imply successful outcome...)
|
| I'm convinced this is why people that start their routine
| with "just make your bed every day" get a surprising amount
| of success.
|
| All of which is to say that I agree you shouldn't blow
| yourself out. My push back is that you are probably far
| less blown out than you think after a workout.
| burningChrome wrote:
| I hate running and I played soccer for the majority of my
| life.
|
| As I've gotten older, I've found other activities to fill the
| void such as rock climbing and mountain biking. Both can be
| strenuous when you want them to be, but you can also take it
| easy. Combined with low level weight training, I've found it
| a lot more enjoyable since both require your brain to be 100%
| engaged when doing it so there's also a mental boost as well.
| taeric wrote:
| I'm thinking the vocabulary is oddly reflective.
|
| You reference that they can be strenuous. My bet is that
| you often choose to push to a strenuous feeling often
| during the training period of each of these. My further bet
| is what you call "strenuous", I'm asserting that those
| unfamiliar would call "painful."
|
| To be clear, I'm not claiming that you are constantly
| hurting yourself. I am claiming that if you weren't
| familiar with the feeling, you'd call it a pain. I'm
| thinking back to the original Matrix, "why do my eyes
| hurt?"
| julianeon wrote:
| I suspect there's a problem with 20th century materials
| underlying this.
|
| There's no particular reason why running on asphalt, or even
| running on a treadmill, shouldn't hurt. It might! It's not a
| natural surface. And hard surface + modern shoes might not be
| a good enough combo to overcome the pain it creates.
|
| I live near a beach and run on sand every other day; I don't
| have body pain problems. But change the surface and I think I
| would.
| taeric wrote:
| Running on asphalt is almost certainly easier than running
| on anything in the past. Try running on a rocky beach
| someday. :D. Running cross country through trails, you
| should expect that you will be going far slower than you
| could comfortably do on asphalt.
|
| The shoes things is an odd one. Current thinking is that a
| lot of the effort people went through to dampen the shock
| to knees oddly resulted in people accepting longer periods
| of stress on their knees than they would have had they
| learned a different gait. That said, building up callouses
| on your feet, as was the norm before shoes, by definition
| hurts?
|
| I hate that I put "running" as my example. Standing and
| walking would also make my point. Physically using your
| body is more difficult than not. And if you aren't used to
| it, it is a type of hurting.
|
| Heck, learning to play a musical instrument is the same
| way. Guitars hurt your fingers as you build up the ability
| to play. Piano doesn't have the same pain, but expect a
| sore hand after a few sessions.
| hirvi74 wrote:
| My issue with exercise is that it's boring as sin. I rather
| do manual labor or play a sport than go to a gym. There is
| just something that feels so artificial about running on a
| human-designed hamster wheel or picking up heavy objects and
| putting them back down for no reason real, useful reason.
| taeric wrote:
| You have my sympathies. It can be boring. Boredom is not,
| necessarily, a bad thing, though? Certainly, some folks
| could use a bit more boredom in the day. :D
|
| I'll also posit that you do the boring stuff now so that
| you can do the exciting stuff later.
| gavinray wrote:
| It's amazing what <any form of daily movement> + a diet of
| "real"/non-processed foods will do for your health.
| MangoToupe wrote:
| > non-processed foods
|
| Do you really not eat bread? We've got to come up with better
| ways to categorize foods. At face value such a term seems to
| imply you should only eat raw food.
| pphysch wrote:
| I do avoid eating (highly processed white) bread in most
| meals, because it doesn't make me feel great.
|
| We're really targeting "highly-processed" foods. Personally
| I draw a line between sausage that went through something
| resembling a hand-powered meat grinder vs. sausage that has
| been obliterated into a fine pink sludge and reformed. Both
| are processed, but the latter is highly processed, with
| more room for additives.
| MangoToupe wrote:
| The issue with sausage isn't the processing, it's the
| preservatives and the choice of meats (and their
| corresponding nutrients) that go into the sausage.
|
| My understanding is that degree of "processing" is
| acknowledged to be an imperfect metric, just one that
| fits easily with EU labeling concerns. I just don't think
| that's as useful as is advertised.
| righthand wrote:
| It is not difficult to make your own bread as well, so
| easily avoided eating non-processed bread.
| MangoToupe wrote:
| > so easily avoided eating non-processed bread.
|
| How do you make bread without flour? Flour is a processed
| food.
| the_sleaze_ wrote:
| While yes, flour is ground and therefore processed - I
| think we all mean bleached, stabilized and enriched
| flour.
| gavinray wrote:
| I genuinely don't eat bread. Terrible carb source.
|
| I'll eat steel cut oats, quinoa, rice, beans/lentils, etc.
|
| But not bread.
| MangoToupe wrote:
| What makes bread a bad source of carbs?
| gavinray wrote:
| It's glycemic index score
| MangoToupe wrote:
| Ah, are you diabetic?
| random3 wrote:
| Yeah, even crazier - some chose to be in mental institutions
| instead of their homes
| mdaverde wrote:
| The answer to miserable health isn't exercise. It's high
| quality sleep.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| It's not a dichotomy, both is good. I find my sleep and
| appetite improving with exercise, too; sleep can improve with
| physical tiredness on top of mental.
| hirvi74 wrote:
| It's a shame how strong the reinforcement loops are. It's
| hard to sleep well without good exercise, and it's hard to
| exercise well without good sleep.
| majkinetor wrote:
| The more you age, the more you need regular sleep, it seems.
| Its basically the only thing that I can't fix nowadays any
| other way but going to bed. Modafinil can help for a couple
| of days but that's it.
| majkinetor wrote:
| And yet, nobody mentions how supplements can't generally damage
| you, but a few days in a gym can fuck you up for an entire
| year, even with a lot of experience. I basically never met
| anybody who does regular resistance training without having
| some sort of pain somewhere, all the time.
|
| Maybe if you are underdoing it its possible but if you follow
| the muscle building theory, you are certainly going to get
| fucked eventually. Even the slightest position issue can make
| your tendons hurt for months... No wonder all athletes are on
| BPC 157, TB 500 and friends...
|
| I talked to exercise professors and random people alike, and
| they all tell the same story. Professor said that I should get
| used to pain.
|
| Too bad exercise seems to be a must after you are 50+ and no
| amount of good nutrition and vitamin megadosing will suffice
| for optimal health and particularly insuline resistance. Prior
| to that age though, you can get away without it.
| echelon wrote:
| > I basically never met anybody who does regular resistance
| training without having some sort of pain somewhere, all the
| time.
|
| That kind of pain quickly subsides after relaxing your
| routine though. It's not chronic.
|
| The inflammation pathways aren't the same as disease state
| pathways.
| majkinetor wrote:
| That is simply not true. Any tendon/ligament issue will
| take at least 6 months.
| echelon wrote:
| This isn't an all or nothing. Not everyone is damaging
| their body.
| jonnybgood wrote:
| As one of those random persons who has been weightlifting for
| 10+ years and is currently in their late 30s, I look great
| and I feel great. Yes, there is pain because you're breaking
| down muscle fibers which repair and become stronger. Lots of
| people experience delayed onset muscle soreness, which is
| temporary. Some people don't learn how to do things correctly
| and don't listen to their body so they injure themselves.
|
| What is the muscle building theory? Not everyone who does
| weightlifting is aiming for hypertrophy. Some are aiming for
| strength.
|
| Honestly, it sounds like you're trying to convince yourself
| not to do it. That's okay. It's difficult to know where to
| begin and avoid potential injury. It does take some time to
| learn. I like to recommend starting with a functional
| training class. This kind of class provides a guided session
| in building strength in everyday movements and provides a
| steady pace to really tune in to your body. It's very
| difficult to injure yourself.
| majkinetor wrote:
| > Honestly, it sounds like you're trying to convince
| yourself not to do it.
|
| I am still doing it, and I do feel good in general.
| However, I have constant pain in one part of the body or
| other which is something I can manage (if its too strong,
| ibuprofen or friends). The entire gym is full of NSAIDs.
|
| It's just that nobody underlines this aspect of exercise. I
| know its good for metabolism, brain health, cardiovascular
| health, looking good etc so you trade serious disease for
| more or less pain.
| rybosworld wrote:
| There's nuance here.
|
| Soreness is not a bad thing. And it's true that people who
| regularly exercise will often be in a state where they feel
| some level of soreness somewhere. That's the kind of pain
| people say you should embrace.
|
| It's also true that lots of folks injure themselves
| exercising. Sometimes this leads to having to take time off
| to recover.
|
| But people who don't exercise are more at risk of injury in
| general. This is because their tendons, bones, and muscles
| are less able to deal with sudden stress.
|
| > And yet, nobody mentions how supplements can't generally
| damage you
|
| And last of all - this is plainly not true...
| majkinetor wrote:
| Not talking about soreness. Soreness is trivial. I
| currently have 2 tendons hurting and everybody in my gym
| who exercise constantly.
|
| But I agree with you, people who don't exercise are more at
| risk of injury in general.
|
| > > And yet, nobody mentions how supplements can't
| generally damage you
|
| > And last of all - this is plainly not true...
|
| It's true, its just that pharma wants to sell you drugs. No
| wonder Pauling called it orthomolecular medicine, claiming
| that "right" molecules are basically non toxic.
|
| Unless you are a complete retard and take millions IU of
| vitamin D or you are a special case. There are no reported
| deaths with supplements in the last 30 years.
| spacemadness wrote:
| That's just not true. I've been lifting heavy for many years
| and have had my share of injuries, sure. But they heal. My
| body feels great. I'm almost 50 and I have no back pain, or
| other pains I see people constantly complaining about that
| are near my age and don't do any resistance training. The
| only reason I injured myself is because I overreached. So
| that's in ones control. I tend to overdo it from time to time
| if I'm trying to hit a goal. But nobody needs to push that
| hard and there are many ways to avoid it.
|
| The fact is resistance training is vital for able bodied
| folks to avoid feeling pain later. And of course it has many
| other benefits than that. Even just pulling on some
| resistance bands can save your back and shoulders and the
| chance of injury there is minuscule.
| majkinetor wrote:
| You just said its true. Yes, most of the things heal, but
| one day they don't.
|
| I am 50, take 0 drugs, and look better than in 20. Back
| doesn't hurt.
|
| Metformin did help more than exercise, though.
|
| Note that I didn't exercise at all until 45.
| spacemadness wrote:
| You just focused on what you wanted to and ignored the
| rest.
| majkinetor wrote:
| Yes, because that is the point I am making. That exercise
| hurts, sometimes quite a lot. I never said its not
| beneficial, quite contrary.
| cyberax wrote:
| You should absolutely get a trainer, ideally one who has
| education in physiotherapy.
|
| I got muscle problems from _not_ doing resistance training,
| my bad posture caught up with me finally. And I was doing
| quite a bit of cardio (treadmill walking), so my general
| health was OK.
|
| It took months to build up muscles enough to avoid stressing
| the same overworked muscles, but eventually I had no pain
| whatsoever.
| dkarl wrote:
| > a few days in a gym can fuck you up for an entire year,
| even with a lot of experience. I basically never met anybody
| who does regular resistance training without having some sort
| of pain somewhere, all the time
|
| > Maybe if you are underdoing it its possible but if you
| follow the muscle building theory, you are certainly going to
| get fucked eventually. Even the slightest position issue can
| make your tendons hurt for months...
|
| I think your definition of "underdoing it" is what's fucked.
| If your goal is to optimize your enjoyment of your body now
| and in the future, then do whatever works best to serve that
| goal in the gym. I have no idea what "muscle building theory"
| is, but if it causes constant injuries that require pain
| medication, then it probably isn't the best way to pursue
| your goals.
|
| > Too bad exercise seems to be a must after you are 50+
|
| This really varies from person to person. Judging by the
| people I know, the non-resistance-trainers are worse off at
| least by forty, earlier for many. Everybody has pain, but
| people doing resistance training have less pain while being
| able to enjoy more activities.
|
| Personally, I started having occasional back pain in my mid-
| twenties, often when I woke up in the morning. My dad said it
| started at the same age for him and got slowly worse over
| time, and he just put up with it. A few years later I
| discovered weightlifting, and a year later I wasn't waking up
| with back pain anymore -- one of the many things about
| lifting weights that completely surprised me. (I got into it
| in the early 2000s, when 99% of the information online was
| meathead bullshit just drenched in testosterone, sexism, and
| homophobia, and I was lucky to stumble across a single web
| site that made a case for lifting weights without the off-
| putting machismo. I never had a bunch influencers promising
| that lifting weights would cure every problem in my life, so
| almost everything positive about lifting weights came as a
| surprise to me.)
|
| A problem that both my parents started experiencing around
| forty, and which I encountered on the same schedule, was
| chronic knee pain. It took me a couple of years to figure out
| some contributing factors and fix them, but now I don't have
| knee pain, while still enjoying a lot of activities that my
| parents gave up long before my age.
|
| My friends sometimes say things like, you hurt yourself
| playing soccer, isn't that dumb? Why are you doing things
| that hurt you? And my question back to them is, can you even
| play soccer? How many years has it been since you could play
| soccer for even five minutes without seriously hurting
| yourself? I'm going to take a few weeks off and then I'll be
| able to play soccer again, what's your plan? Late thirties
| and early forties is when sedentary people discover that
| attempting to join in on fun physical activities is not as
| pleasant for them as they remember, and/or likely to result
| in an injury that takes a long time to heal, so they start to
| opt out. When you see someone in their forties look
| particularly satisfied while they stand to one side at a
| gathering while others are playing a casual pickup game of
| soccer or Ultimate, it's because they're internally
| congratulating themselves on having the wisdom not to try.
|
| Obviously I'm going to hit limitations that exercise can't
| fix. But in the meantime, I'm hitting one problem after
| another that exercise _can_ fix, and seeing my sedentary
| friends hit the same eminently fixable problems like brick
| walls.
| majkinetor wrote:
| > If your goal is to optimize your enjoyment of your body
| now and in the future, then do whatever works best to serve
| that goal in the gym
|
| Why would my goal be enjoyment? I follow the science and do
| what must be done. I don't enjoy broccoli or fish too, but
| still eat them. I enjoy sugar, but I totally do not eat it.
|
| > A problem that both my parents started experiencing
| around forty, and which I encountered on the same schedule,
| was chronic knee pain.
|
| I never had a knee pain until I started exercising. Taking
| turmeric now for it.
|
| > My friends sometimes say things like, you hurt yourself
| playing soccer, isn't that dumb?
|
| Your friends are right. I played basketball entire life,
| and now I stopped it, because if somebody hits me I am in
| pain for days. You have to aknowledge your age and that you
| are more fragile and heal very slow, even with optimal
| nutrition and supplementation and gadgets like red light.
| jwr wrote:
| > I basically never met anybody who does regular resistance
| training without having some sort of pain somewhere, all the
| time.
|
| As a counterpoint, since you seem to like anecdata: I am
| around 50 and have been doing weightlifting for the last 8
| years. No pain. No injury. Extreme positive effects on my
| entire life.
|
| I would respectfully suggest that you need to a) know what
| you are doing, e.g. start with a trainer, and b) not try to
| be an olympic athlete, e.g. reach reasonable benchmarks and
| not try to be a weightlifting champ.
|
| I don't know what "exercise professors" are, but you might
| want to talk to different people.
| majkinetor wrote:
| Exercise professors are guys teaching exercise science on
| universities.
|
| Your experience is extraordinary, you seem to be protected
| for some reason or have high pain threshold or simply do
| not exercise hard enough. "Extreme positive effects on your
| entire life", that's so unbelievable, there is no such
| thing apart from acute drugs. I would respectfully suggest
| you to not deceive others, if you are deceiving yourself.
|
| I am not trying to be an athlete, I am just observing the
| world around me. I also recommend exercise, its just not a
| silver bullet the guys like you are promoting. Its also
| almost totally useless for weight control, the thing that
| most people exercise for.
| DontchaKnowit wrote:
| Ive been doing 3x weekly calisthenics for about 3 years and
| apart from occasional overuse-tendon-soreness that clears up
| in about a week, ive never had any problems. In fact im way
| less prone to injury and an ongoing shoulder issue I had
| cleared up after getting better at pullups
|
| So, I disagree with you. If you take it slow and listen to
| your body and maintain good form youre golden.
| majkinetor wrote:
| Isn't that just crazy, you have "ongoing shoulder issue"
| and claim to never had any problems?
|
| It seems that people just widely overhype their lifestyle
| or simply get accustomed to everyday pains.
| DontchaKnowit wrote:
| No im saying before ever doing any excercise of any kind
| I had shoulder problems. They resolved within like 2
| months of doing a calisthenics routine.
|
| Reading your comments you seem to have a really immature
| attitude about excercise and you seem to be hell bent on
| making your point so, whatever
| setsewerd wrote:
| It sounds like they were saying the shoulder issue
| resolved _after_ they started exercising it.
| jobs_throwaway wrote:
| > I basically never met anybody who does regular resistance
| training without having some sort of pain somewhere, all the
| time.
|
| Hahahahahahahahaha
|
| Been doing ~daily resistance training for > 10 years, have a
| hell of a build, and do not experience anything like this. I
| have had a couple of injuries, but never anything that caused
| me pain outside of the gym.
|
| Ditto for many of my friends/colleagues.
|
| Sounds like you may just be in a bubble of fatties
| Ifkaluva wrote:
| I guess my response would be that yes, you will develop lots
| of random little aches and pains and small injuries, but the
| counterpoints are:
|
| - Before I exercised regularly, I developed aches and pains
| in upper and lower back, also a shoulder for some reason.
| These all went away thanks to pull-ups and pushups. Lack of
| exercise will also wreck your body--if you have not
| experienced this I have to assume you are very young.
|
| - Exercise also causes lots of random little injuries. For
| example basketball gave me an ankle and a knee that have
| never been quite the same. But, I find that exercise itself
| helps dampen the pain response and makes them more bearable.
| I have ankle and knee warmup routines that help a lot.
|
| Among people I have met, exercisers with injuries have full
| lives who are able to live around their injuries. Non-
| exercisers also develop little pains over time of being
| sedentary, and end up being much more constrained in what
| they can do.
| mentos wrote:
| I've been experimenting with making my last meal of the day as
| far from my sleep as possible ideally waking up at 5am,
| drinking water / vitamins, exercising by lifting my dumb bells
| in my studio apartment, eating a 1k calorie breakfast and 1k
| calorie lunch and done with eating by ~1-2 so I have 4-6 hours
| to digest before bed
|
| Best sleep I've ever gotten.
|
| You don't know what you're missing out on until you've
| experienced not good but GREAT sleep.
|
| if that's too extreme avoid too much water before bed if you're
| getting up to pee you are ruining your sleep
| taeric wrote:
| Meanwhile, I'm finding some of my best sleep in a while by
| having an espresso before bed. :D
| WesleyLivesay wrote:
| On the flip side, I get absolutely garbage sleep if I don't
| eat within about 1-2 hours of going to sleep.
| kalkaran wrote:
| Same - I also read a study saying 22% muscle synthesis
| increase with 40 grams of casein before bed and one saying
| protein before bed improved sleep quality.
| entropicdrifter wrote:
| So a bedtime glass of milk and small bowl of soybeans is
| a good move?
| throw-qqqqq wrote:
| I really feel casein before bedtime improves my sleep
| drastically! (I have a bucket of micellar casein powder)
| BMc2020 wrote:
| What I want is a pill that makes me exercise.
| simoncion wrote:
| I unironically offer the opinion that the pill that you're
| looking for is amphetamines.
| butlike wrote:
| Terrible advice. The muscles need blood (nutrients), and
| you're going to take something that vasoconstricts? You're
| then going to couple that with an increased heart rate?
|
| I unironically offer the opinion that half a teaspoon of
| creatine is a much better alternative.
| simoncion wrote:
| > Terrible advice. The muscles need blood (nutrients),
| and you're going to take something that vasoconstricts?
|
| ADHD patients seem to be able to exercise just fine (and
| -importantly- don't seem to be suffering widespread
| muscle death) when on Adderall and similar. I bet folks
| like that are pretty glad that the body is a complex,
| robust system that does reasonably well in a _fairly_
| wide range of internal and external environments.
| DontchaKnowit wrote:
| I honestly do not believe hardly any of the studies about
| adderall. I am an adhd patient and playing tennis on
| amphetamines once spiked my heart rate above 200. Not
| good. Also vasoconstrictors + valsalva technique for
| lifting heavy weights = anuerysm risk.
|
| So, respectifully to the studies, im calling bullshit.
| Ifkaluva wrote:
| Caffeine is also a vasoconstrictor, and included in large
| amounts in most pre-workouts.
| hirvi74 wrote:
| Been on them for over decade, they don't work that way --
| at least for me. Not sure I want them to work that way
| either. I am not sure working out on stimulants is the best
| for the body. The candle that burns twice as hot burns
| twice as fast.
| loveiswork wrote:
| It is in clinical trials I believe, seriously.
|
| Look up the Regeneron COURAGE trial
| butlike wrote:
| It's called anabolic steroid.
| BMc2020 wrote:
| The Liver King spent $11,000 a month on them. Too much for
| me.
| blitzar wrote:
| Viagra
| majkinetor wrote:
| Sauna is form of exercise surogate.
| PaulHoule wrote:
| People w/ fibromyalgia don't seem to benefit from exercise the
| way others do. For normal people, exercise does some tissue
| damage but it grows back stronger. People with fibro get the
| damage but they don't get the regrowth. So a bit of "overdoing
| it" that I might mostly bounce back from in a few days could
| have one of my wife's friends down for six weeks.
| MangoToupe wrote:
| >It's crazy to me how many people have miserable health,
| complain about their body and mental state endlessly, but still
| put up any roadblock they can think of to avoid exercising of
| any form.
|
| I don't think it's that weird. Exercising, particularly cardio,
| for its own sake, without something you're trying to accomplish
| with your effort, feels very bad.
| pphysch wrote:
| "Not exercising" also feels very bad, just on a different
| time scale.
| mrguyorama wrote:
| A time scale that the human brain is terrible at
| recognizing or adapting to or internalizing.
|
| Our reward hardware doesn't work well for exercising
| because it wasn't needed for exercising. You either did
| physical activity or you starved to death.
| reducesuffering wrote:
| Humans are evolutionarily adapted to running. Yes, going from
| a modern sedentary lifestyle to running will feel rough for a
| few months as you acclimate (and most people don't start off
| at the slow 11 min. / mile [7 min. / km] pace they should).
| But there's a reason marathons are so popular, running and
| exercise starts to feel really good.
| MangoToupe wrote:
| > Yes, going from a modern sedentary lifestyle to running
| will feel rough for a few months as you acclimate
|
| Right. Which is why people don't exercise. That's a lot to
| ask of people with other things on their plate.
|
| To be clear, I know I should exercise. I just find it very
| difficult to do so, and it's very easy to convince yourself
| you should do something else with that energy.
|
| I think team sports are probably the best way to get into
| exercise. This allows tying the benefit directly into a
| reward system. I ran long-distance in high school and,
| without teammates to let down, it was very difficult to
| push myself beyond the bare minimum effort. Most of us
| don't have the ability to summon a team sport into our work
| schedule though.
| reducesuffering wrote:
| Many people find the data and record-breaking in running
| a good reward system. There's all kinds of goals to try
| to achieve, from your best time at 10 different
| distances, to weekly miles, to a longer and longer
| distance like a marathon.
|
| Team sports are harder to work into a schedule, which is
| why running is easier to start for many people because it
| just requires a pair of shoes and leaving the house
| yourself. For others, there's a parallel social angle
| where you can also make many friends you see regularly at
| clubs and enjoy the same activity together.
| CTDOCodebases wrote:
| The problem with exercise is that we have evolved to be
| energy efficient and this includes being lazy when we
| have food/shelter so the resistance to it is high.
|
| However once we start exercising for any period of time
| and _observe_ the positive outcomes then the difficulty
| drops and it becomes enjoyable.
|
| The problem is peoples expectations and approach.
|
| > Yes, going from a modern sedentary lifestyle to running
| will feel rough for a few months as you acclimate
|
| This is a terrible idea and for someone who has been
| sedentary they will likely just injure themselves and/or
| feel miserable. People don't have realistic expectations.
| It's better to do something like "couch to 5K" running on
| a grass or a dirt track. In a couple of weeks they will
| feel good after a run (if they are not too distracted and
| outward looking) then from there the runners high
| reinforces the behavior and they will look forward to
| exercising.
| cckolon wrote:
| > 5 - 9 means strong effects, definitely not placebo.
|
| It's impossible for anyone to say this convincingly about their
| own experience. If it were easy to tell whether an effect was due
| to placebo, we wouldn't need blinded trials!
| elbasti wrote:
| Actually, a lof of blind trials are hard to run precisely
| _because_ it 's so obvious if you're not on the placebo side.
|
| Like...nobody could ever take a macro dose of LSD or mushrooms
| and not know it.
| foolswisdom wrote:
| That's because it's obvious due to effects other than the one
| you're trying to observe. Which is of course the case when
| you're dealing with psychedelics (and of course many other
| drugs).
| Scarblac wrote:
| I'm still in doubt about the effectiveness of parachutes,
| there's never been a large double blind trial.
| y-curious wrote:
| I'm stealing this one instead of using "it was revealed to me
| in a dream."
| andrewla wrote:
| We certainly shouldn't accept subjective evaluations as proof
| of effectiveness, but that does not give it zero value. The
| more subtle the effect or the more invested the subject is in
| establishing the effectiveness of an intervention (or any of
| many other confounders) the less likely it is to represent
| proof.
|
| But it is evidence. Think of this as more observational science
| rather than experimental science; we have to do some work to
| determine whether it is worth trying to do blinded experiments
| to validate an effective, and this is that work.
| reverendsteveii wrote:
| time to put a pebble on the pile of anecdotal evidence for
| exercise as a life-changing nootropic. for two years now I've
| been doing 20 minutes of resistance training and 20 minutes of
| cardio every day and it helps so much with everything that its
| reached a point where my wife will flat out tell me "go lift" if
| I'm being irritable or having a hard time focusing.
| runamuck wrote:
| Related: Scott Alexander did a survey and provided analysis for
| Nootropic effectiveness -
| https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/nootropics-survey-2020-resu...
| trehalose wrote:
| It appears he provided an analysis for _subjective perception_
| of effectiveness of various nootropics. I don 't see much
| objective measurement of cognitive performance at all here.
| This kind of survey has value, but I think to call it "analysis
| for effectiveness" is very misleading.
| andrewla wrote:
| This post not only directly references that, but even
| incorporates the SSC/ACT data into the dataset.
| Analemma_ wrote:
| The tl;dr is:
|
| 1. Apart from ADHD medications, which are very powerful, most
| drugs and weird obscure supplements have little effect (there are
| some intriguing but noisy results about peptides).
|
| 2. Exercise-- especially weightlifting and HIIT-- is also very
| powerful. There's evidence of a dose-response curve where light
| exercise is good but intense is better.
|
| Arguably this is pretty unsurprising, from an evolutionary
| perspective. It would be strange if our brains had "one weird
| trick" to perform a lot better with no downsides, since if it
| existed evolution should've found it. But being in good shape
| confers large benefits.
| yadaeno wrote:
| > It would be strange if our brains had "one weird trick" to
| perform a lot better with no downsides, since if it existed
| evolution should've found it
|
| It would not be strange at all. We are constantly evolving and
| so is our environment. This argument is very similar to the
| "efficient market fallacy", if the market was perfectly
| efficient there would be no opportunity to create value, but in
| reality it is highly imperfect.
| perrygeo wrote:
| So regular exercise (lifting, HIIT, and light cardio outdoors)
| is literally that one weird trick. It's hard to identify any
| downsides but the upsides are tremendous. It's amazing that
| people will go out ingesting all sorts of questionable
| substances just to avoid getting in shape.
| bn-l wrote:
| There is one more set of substances that work extremely well
| in partnership and are not harmful. The first is huperzine-a.
| balfirevic wrote:
| > It's hard to identify any downsides but the upsides are
| tremendous.
|
| I wish! If you're lucky (or not particularly unlucky) that
| might be true.
|
| I don't feel any mental benefits, nor do I sleep better. Fun
| kinds of exercise (badminton, football, BJJ) always seem to
| injure me me over longer time periods (and it takes months,
| or even years, to heal when you're in your forties). And they
| are not very forgiving, schedule-wise.
|
| Lifting weights or rowing on a machine is painfully boring,
| but it does make me feel better physically. It's a great
| upside, but the downsides are real too.
| phoronixrly wrote:
| You need to add that all of this is self-reported/subjective.
| I've gone under doctor's supervision through
| L-Theanine+Caffeine, then Modafinil, and finally Ritalin, and
| to be brutally honest, while I subjectively feel the best when
| on Ritalin, I am far from certain I would be able to show it in
| a blind study with an objective problem-solving task.
|
| Also a blind study with these would be hard, as Modafinil has a
| noticeable effect on heart rate and blood pressure, and general
| response to stress (at least in my case), and also causes a
| distinct chemical smell of one's urine.
| phoronixrly wrote:
| The suggestion/allusion that the EU's GDP per capita is lower
| than the US due to Adderall and Dexedrine not being
| approved/available is wild. Kind of makes me not want to take
| seriously the rest of the article...
| stevenAthompson wrote:
| I'm not even certain it's fair to refer to these things (or
| modafinil) as nootropics, as nootropics (as defined by the
| person who coined the phrase) should lack stimulate/sedative
| properties.
| y-curious wrote:
| Data is well presented but the conclusions are iffy. But hey,
| maybe Europe can stop limiting its own industry with regulation
| if they just up that dextroamphetamine dose?
| jackdeansmith wrote:
| I think this is clearly a joke
| phoronixrly wrote:
| Sure hope so.
| blitzar wrote:
| Adderall is a performance enhancing drug, and widly used as
| such. Its nigh on impossible to compete at the highest level
| workplaces with doped employees if you are a natural worker.
| phoronixrly wrote:
| The graph implies is that aderall causes people to perform at
| 150% on average if 100% of the workforce is on it. I say that
| both implying that aderall has such a massive objective
| effect and implying it is so widely (ab)used are the
| laughable ramblings of a psychonaut at worst and
| unsubstantiated at best.
| gavinray wrote:
| I've tried everything, and the only things that make any
| noticeable difference in my experience:
|
| Modafinil, Racetams, Noopept, Phenibut
|
| Noopept seems to be curiously missing from this list?
| throwaway743 wrote:
| Yeah noopept is legit. Its effects on learning, recall, and
| organization of thoughts are significant.
| DontchaKnowit wrote:
| Phenibut will FUCK you up. Ever take a big dose? Its like being
| piss drunk.
|
| Very fun substance also nasty as fuck and undoubtably bad for
| your brain. (I got weird neurological "withdrawal" symptoms
| after like 3 days of taking it)
| gavinray wrote:
| I've hospitalized myself from an accidental overdose on it,
| don't have to tell me lol.
|
| Spent 8 continuous hours vomiting with the worst nausea I've
| ever felt in my life.
|
| Lesson hard learned. I've been using Phenibut for nearly 10
| years, I only take it on the weekends.
|
| I quite enjoy high doses, feels much better than drinking
| without negative physical side effects. I don't drink alcohol
| in general, to be honest.
| drewbitt wrote:
| It causes next-day depression for me. Could only be purely
| recreational.
| taeric wrote:
| It is frustratingly hard for me to trust most any nootropic
| discussion nowadays. Without many large random trials, there are
| as many questions as answers afterwards.
|
| It doesn't help that I'm on Adderall, but if left to my own
| devices, would absolutely skip it. I'm assuming I benefit in the
| able to think way from it. Largely the only reason I know I
| missed a dose is if I find I lose my patience quickly with
| others.
| nomel wrote:
| > Without many large random trials
|
| That, historically, does _not_ work well for neurochemistry.
| Large random trials are good for an average biological response
| of profitable chemicals, but it seems there are _significant_
| differences in neurochemistry, between people, that these don
| 't capture. If you've ever had a prescription for most anything
| mental related, like ADHD, depression, etc, there's _never_
| just one drug, there 's a panel that you just kinda go through
| until one works _for your personal neurochemistry_ , with some
| having _detrimental_ side effects for some people.
|
| Unsurprisingly, it seems to be the same with many of these
| nootropics. I've had several very negative reactions to
| _common_ nootropics at _fractional_ doses, where others have
| positive experiences at many times the dose. A few resulted in
| migraines every day I took it, until I stopped, with one
| quickly resulting in depression and the only suicidal thoughts
| of my life, which went aways just as fast as I stopped. One
| hurt my short term memory so much I couldn 't repeat a phone
| number (a very potent racetam like).
|
| Some nootropics are _precursors_ , which are mostly self
| regulating/supplements, but there are many out there that _very
| actively_ poke low level neurochemicals, and your personal
| response _will_ vary, just as _is expected_ in the regulated
| drug world.
|
| Min/maxing personal neurochemistry won't come from large random
| trials.
| taeric wrote:
| I hear what you are saying, but I have a hard time thinking
| it is an argument against RCTs. Notably, Adderall is a strong
| counter to this idea. It is clearly effective per all of the
| tests it has been through. Not surprisingly, it is one of the
| only ones listed in this website that works. Quite well.
|
| There is an argument that people should treat their own lives
| as an experiment. Where you track the things you do and see
| if you can find patterns on mood and productivity and such.
| If you want to know what generally works, though, there is no
| counter to effectiveness in RCTs, though?
|
| Put differently, when has evidence ever gone counter to RCTs?
| Not just are there some questions that an RCT hasn't covered,
| but times it has been counter to the results?
| nomel wrote:
| > Adderall is a strong counter to this idea. It is clearly
| effective per all of the tests it has been through.
|
| That's a good example, because the statement "clearly
| effective" is absolutely false, as will be stated by a
| doctor when they prescribe it to you, and can be found _in
| the documentation that comes with the medication_. It is
| _not appropriate or effective_ for some people, and is
| _detrimental_ for others (accounts of both are found
| trivially online).
| taeric wrote:
| Adderall has some fairly clear cases where you shouldn't
| prescribe it, but this is largely not a secret list of
| "your unique biochemistry means we have no idea whether
| it will work for you" level of uncertainty. And, at
| large, this learning has been reinforced by RCTs. Such
| that I still don't see this as an argument against them?
| Aurornis wrote:
| > Unsurprisingly, it seems to be the same with many of these
| nootropics.
|
| Controlled trials are actually very revealing of the placebo
| effect, which is a rampant confounded in nootropics
| communities. When people spend months reading about new
| nootropics, then a week waiting for it in the mail, then they
| take their first dose with excitement and anticipation they
| generally report feeling something.
|
| The nice thing about trials is that they can start separating
| out this placebo effect.
|
| Several people have done self-trials with different compounds
| with surprising results. Gwern is perhaps the most famous.
| Whenever people post about magnesium being a life altering
| substance or producing profound effects I also point them to
| his measured magnesium trials where the net effect over time
| was beginning to trend negative.
|
| One of the myths in nootropics communities is that everything
| is a matter of neurochemistry and everyone is substantially
| different. In reality, RCTs are actually great at capturing
| enough people to see subgroups responding if you have enough
| people.
|
| One thing most nootropics people don't acknowledge enough is
| how often placebo effect appears in RCTs. Perform an RCT for
| depression and the placebo group will get better. It happens
| in every study. Give college students Adderall before an exam
| and they will report performing better, despite no
| statistical improvement in their grades. Now consider these
| facts in light of all of the scattered nootropics forum
| reports from people claiming different substances cured their
| depression or made them smarter. Not surprisingly, if you
| check their post history more recent comments will show them
| off on a new tangent trying a new substance, the old one long
| forgotten as a short trial that didn't work out.
| Aurornis wrote:
| > It doesn't help that I'm on Adderall, but if left to my own
| devices, would absolutely skip it.
|
| The difference is that you've taken it medicinally for years,
| whereas most nootropics users are early users who are
| experimenting with high placebo priming.
|
| Stimulant prescriptions have a high churn rate because many
| people take their first few doses and feel euphoric, then think
| it's going to be like that forever. Fast forward a couple years
| and the fun is long gone so it's a different story.
|
| Nootropics forums are dominated by posts from people saying
| "Just took my first dose of $substance and I feel amazing!"
| which is the least useful measure of how well it will treat
| someone long term.
| taeric wrote:
| Even when I started Adderall, I never felt anything amazing
| from it. Self reporting mood, as it were, I would think it is
| not working. It is only that I know I have more patience with
| things going wrong, that I know it is doing something.
|
| That said, sounds like we are largely in agreement? I have
| gotten where I assume everything is dominated by noise.
| dkdbejwi383 wrote:
| When the author talks about "weightlifting", I wonder if they
| specifically mean the sport of snatch and clean & jerk, or
| "lifting weights" in general
| broof wrote:
| I think most people use weightlifting to refer to lifting
| weights in general. If someone said "competitive weightlifting"
| then I would assume that to mean stuff like clean & jerk.
| wslh wrote:
| While I like your project, there should be strong warnings. Some
| of the substances listed, like amphetamines, aren't just
| supplements, they actively and unavoidably alter your brain
| function. Their effects are "much less subjective", others, like
| omega-3, may have (or not) benefits that you don't feel at all.
| phoronixrly wrote:
| I echo that. If you're considering this list, please consider
| talking to a physician first, yes, even if you're in the US.
| Self-medicating based on randos on the Internet or a few
| cherry-picked studies is irresponsible, doubly so when dealing
| with addictive substances with nobody to oversee the therapy,
| triply so when in a country with no safety net for people with
| addiction, or sick people in general.
|
| And before you say I appeal to authority, I understand people
| don't respect doctors or their country's healthcare system, but
| I suggest they should acquire formal medical education
| themselves _before_ starting to put random shit in their body.
| And no, reading the entire body of blogs by Scott Alexander
| does not count.
| readthenotes1 wrote:
| '...nootropic ... "Any substance purported to increase or enhance
| cognitive abilities." ... communities like the nootropics
| subreddit, which has a great _begginer's_ guide. '
|
| At first I thought the mispelling was intentional irony. But the
| leak to the guide shows that it's just unintentional irony
| RS-232 wrote:
| To add... weightlifting isn't a substance and doesn't fit the
| definition of a nootropic.
|
| Also, regarding weightlifting... there was no mention about the
| risk of continuous muscle trauma, scar tissue build-up, nerve
| damage, and ligament damage.
| negativepanda wrote:
| There's one very simple "nootropic" that I've discovered many
| years ago and have been doing most days of the week. Buying a cup
| of coffee and taking a walk in nature. It makes me feel better
| than just coffee or just walking in nature. Another benefit is
| that in the days I can do this, I have something to look forward
| to since waking up.
| bluecalm wrote:
| In myy experience it works even better with a stimulant with a
| smoother curve than caffeine and optionally a bit more
| intensive (but still on lighter side) exercise.
| negativepanda wrote:
| Can you give some examples of the stimulants?
| bluecalm wrote:
| Modafinil 50-100mg or micro dose of long release
| amphetamine like Vyvanse.
| cjbgkagh wrote:
| Was just about to say this, Modafinil is my stimulant
| drug of choice. 100mg. Really smooth and lasts all day. I
| do need to take amitryptiline to help sleep but I have
| noise intolerance related sleep issues anyway and the
| combination of the two meds is complementary. My only
| regret is not starting sooner - I had a rather anti drug
| bias and saw needing medication as a weakness.
| butlike wrote:
| Probably the slight MAO inhibiting effect of coffee.
| Aurornis wrote:
| Going to make a wild guess that coffee's contribution is its
| classic stimulant effect, which is well known.
|
| Not sure why the nootropics people are always trying to come
| up with alternate theories for why something works when
| substances like caffeine are well studied and known to
| provide a mood boost.
| channel_t wrote:
| Good simple nootropic, but I like the cup of coffee even better
| with a 200mg capsule of a high quality L-Theanine to give a
| zen-like calm to the stimulation of the caffeine. Underrated as
| heck IMHO.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| Any brands that you would consider high quality? I'm
| currently using Nutricost, but only because it was the
| cheapest, and I didn't know they were allowed to fiddle with
| quality on these things.
| hackingforfun wrote:
| Nootropics Depot [0] appears to be a high-quality vendor.
| They claim to test every batch of every ingredient in-house
| for all of their supplements.
|
| [0] https://nootropicsdepot.com/l-theanine-capsules/
| dfee wrote:
| Any difference from the 2-for-1 from Walgreens (private
| labeled)? Or is that the problem? We don't really know what
| we're getting?
| stronglikedan wrote:
| > I have something to look forward to since waking up
|
| That's... sad! I look forward to every day! I look forward to
| breathing when I wake up! I hope that changes for you soon.
| butlike wrote:
| You only like amphetamine for the adrenaline dump and dopamine.
| Also life changing doesn't necessarily mean for the better.
| jobs_throwaway wrote:
| I found it quite effective in helping me to grind leetcode when
| I was job hunting while working full-time but YMMV. Perhaps I
| would've gotten the same gig, but I tried doing a month without
| it and found my ability to power through was significantly
| lower than with amphetamines. Maybe it was because the
| amphetamine gave me an artificially high amount of dopamine
| which offset the inherently boring nature of the task.
| phoronixrly wrote:
| ... How are you doing now?
| w10-1 wrote:
| This is a beautiful bit of statistics, but perhaps displaced into
| self-reflection.
|
| All therapy, practiced with any consistency, is effective --
| probably because sacrificing for one's self builds up self-
| investment, and self-investment leads to self-protective
| decision-making that improves outcome and outlook.
|
| Nootropics with perceptible feedback will always seem to be
| working. This might make their practice more consistent
| initially, but actually undercuts the build-up of self-regard by
| replacing it with dependency.
|
| The statistical and analytical perspective is the mature way to
| handle objective decisions over stochastic processes, and it's
| the right approach for validating drugs at population scale.
|
| But for personal assessments, decisions, and planning, the
| statistical can at best provide warnings about addiction or
| ineffectiveness. But more dangerously, it can give a veneer of
| objective confidence reinforcing self-destructive feedback loops,
| and suppress the uncertainty that would drive reflection and
| personal integration.
|
| It's much better to embrace uncertainty, and share with a friend.
| andrewla wrote:
| > All therapy, practiced with any consistency, is effective
|
| This is just clearly false?
|
| I don't mean to go super-literal here, but unless you have a
| very narrow definition of what counts as therapy (or if your
| definition of "therapy" is simply "any thing which, practiced
| with consistency, is effective") this is not even wrong.
| icameron wrote:
| They work until they don't in my anecdotal experience. Any
| substance it seems the first time is the best. Then, slowly, my
| brain chemistry adapts, and it becomes less effective. Sometimes
| a higher dose works for a while. But it never lasts. Then side
| effects start to build up, and before long it's
| counterproductive. SNRIs worked, until after a few months I lost
| all my endurance (running) and libido. Kratom was wonderful at
| almost everything, until it eventually stopped hitting as hard
| and skipping it caused withdrawals. Micro dose maybe worked but
| very quickly wasn't effective (like after 2-3 times with
| psilocybin, or a couple months of ketamine) many others on this
| list have a similar track record with my brain. Good at first but
| the effect wears off after a while and usually end up worse off
| for it.
| Aurornis wrote:
| > They work until they don't in my anecdotal experience. Any
| substance it seems the first time is the best. Then, slowly, my
| brain chemistry adapts, and it becomes less effective.
|
| It's wild to me that the nootropics community evolved into a
| hybrid between the recreational drug community and supplement
| enthusiast communities while forgetting all of the lessons
| people learned in those communities long ago.
|
| So much of the nootropics discourse is about compounds that
| have a moderate to high recreational value: The above post is
| talking about Kratom (an opioid) as if it was a nootropic,
| which would be unfathomable under the original description of
| nootropics.
|
| The linked article also includes psilocybin, tianeptine (a
| compound that started out with some myths about serotonin but
| was later discovered to be an opioid), and phenibut (an
| extremely addictive substance, see /r/quittingphenibut )
|
| The latter substance is known for temporarily reducing anxiety
| and giving a confidence boost, which is a common theme among
| substances cited as helpful. Something about calling them
| "nootropics" seems to reset people's expectations and they
| forget that all recreational drugs make people feel some
| combination of euphoria, motivation, confidence boost, anxiety
| reduction, or stimulation _at first_ , before tolerance takes
| in. People find themselves not only tolerant to these
| substances, but in withdrawal when they don't take them (as
| mentioned above)
|
| Phenibut is one of the most obvious recreational drugs that got
| pulled into the "nootropics" label for years. Nootropics Depot
| got caught importing large numbers of drums of this substance
| for resale. They deleted a lot of the discussion about their
| lawsuit on /r/nootropics (did you know they control the
| subreddit?) and have put forward a very selective version of
| the story that makes them look like the victims. Meanwhile it
| was one of the most common debilitating addiction stories
| coming out of supplement and nootropics communities until word
| spread that it was highly addictive and the withdrawals were
| very long.
|
| Whatever meaning the word "nootropic" originally had is long
| lost. It's now a blanket term for experimenting with powerful
| supplements or prescription drugs under a different name. I
| think that alternative name has left a lot of people blind to
| the reality of what they're doing. They also frequently don't
| realize that self-reported feelings of drug liking effect are
| not indicative of the drug's objective positive effects.
| DaveZale wrote:
| I designed and marketed "stacks" combined in a simple, small
| capsule for several years.
|
| The best was galantamine, noopept, acetyltyrosine, and cdp-
| choline. It was beloved by many.
|
| However, my magnum opus could have been stacks that changed
| daily, to prevent any neurochemical adaptation or tolerance.
|
| But, at some point the almighty paycheck hijacked my brain. Why
| not include money as an anti-nootropic in your study?
|
| Judging by the boundless stupidity we are seeing in the world of
| oligarchs now, maybe too much money is tge ultimate anti-
| nootropic /s
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