[HN Gopher] The Zen of Quakerism (2016)
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The Zen of Quakerism (2016)
Author : surprisetalk
Score : 80 points
Date : 2025-06-29 13:40 UTC (3 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.friendsjournal.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.friendsjournal.org)
| bovermyer wrote:
| That's an interesting parallel. I'll admit, I know almost nothing
| about Quakers and Quakerism.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| They're historically very interesting but you have to be
| careful about what you understand about contemporary quakers
| based on reading on the internet. Their traditions & cultural
| impact are attractive to a lot of people, who then write about
| it.
|
| But quakerism as a living religion is extremely small and quite
| diverse for its tiny size, and groups practicing the
| traditional silent worship are a small minority even within
| that. The majority of living quakers experience a religion much
| closer to the main stream of evangelical christianity than you
| will expect from reading about it online. IIRC something like
| half of quakers are african.
| rimunroe wrote:
| > But quakerism as a living religion is extremely small and
| quite diverse for its tiny size, and groups practicing the
| traditional silent worship are a small minority even within
| that. The majority of living quakers experience a religion
| much closer to the main stream of evangelical christianity
| than you will expect from reading about it online.
|
| Could you elaborate on this? This is fairly surprising to me
| as someone raised as a Quaker and who still attends meeting
| occasionally despite being an atheist. While I'm aware of a
| few different sects within Quakerism, I've never heard of one
| which eschews silent worship. I haven't ever personally
| encountered an evangelical Quaker, and the thought seems
| particularly strange to me.
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| I attended a silent meeting in the US almost two decades
| ago and this was my understanding at the time too. I later
| got interested in the demographics of religion and keep
| checking on the quakers and it's just not at all what you
| would extrapolate from this.
|
| In the US iirc only about half of meetings are
| "unprogrammed" which is the traditional silent meeting. The
| other half more or less follow a normal low church formula,
| with congregational singing, bible readings, and one or
| more sermons. Also usually a period of silent worship still
| but it's not the bulk of the meeting. The doctrine of these
| churches is still quaker, because nearly anything can be,
| but people's polled beliefs are basically protestant
| christian.
|
| Outside the US this second style was much more active in
| evangelism and missionary work and so the "programmed"
| style is vastly more popular. The majority of silent
| worshipping quakers are in the US & england, but globally
| they only represent something like 20% of active quakers.
| Africa and a few south american countries outnumber them by
| a huge margin.
|
| The numbers are not good or reliable either because it's an
| extreme minority religion, something that might not be
| obvious if your exposure was in a large american city (or
| esp in one of the historical quaker regions) or on the
| internet. But best counts are less than half a million
| globally so even by the standards of minority religions
| just so so small. By comparison with other religious
| minorities there are more jews in los angeles, more muslims
| in chicago than there are quakers in the world. So whatever
| your local expression or personal experience of quakerism
| is it is probably unique and in some sense a historical
| outlier.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| My experience in the U.S. has only been of the silent worship
| variety.
| sorokod wrote:
| There is considerable cherry picking along with cultural
| appropriation going on here. Buddhism has flavors that are worlds
| apart from what is described in the post.
|
| A spicy example is discussed in the book "Zen at War"[1].
| Myanamar and Sri Lanka[2] have their own ultra nationalistic
| Buddhists movements.
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zen_at_War
|
| [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinhalese_Buddhist_nationalism
| sctb wrote:
| Obviously there are many flavours of Buddhism and many flavours
| of Christianity, but the author is simply relating his own
| experience. I really don't see how cherry picking or cultural
| appropriation could possibly apply here.
| sorokod wrote:
| The author picks and chooses aspects of a
| tradition/religion/philosophy and names the result as the
| original tradition/religion/philosophy.
|
| Does that help?
| jibcage wrote:
| I think the author is speaking about a specific tradition
| of Buddhism, Zen, and is drawing parallels between that
| tradition and Quakerism. The "picking and choosing" point
| doesn't make sense to me from that angle. Are you picking
| and choosing from Christianity when you talk about
| Protestantism, for example? His thoughts on Zen are pretty
| on point.
| sorokod wrote:
| The author is ultimately speaking of a specific practice,
| meditation. A practice that predates Buddhism by probably
| more then a millennium. Zen is not relevant here as it is
| a latter development.
| corry wrote:
| IMO it's wild to have the expectation that a Quaker author
| writing in a Quaker publication about his direct experiences
| with Zen Buddhism (as practiced in a specific New Jersey group)
| and how it helped him meditate is deficient because it doesn't
| provide caveats or overviews of the in's and out's of the
| various forms of Buddhism.
|
| You REALLY think anyone would benefit from him adding:
|
| BIG CAVEAT: BUDDHISM IS A RELIGION OF BILLIONS AND SOME
| PARTICULAR GROUPS MIGHT NOT FIT WITH THE DESCRIPTIONS OF MY
| EXPERIENCE!!!!
|
| ALSO, IT IS ABSOLUTELY * _IMPERATIVE*_ THAT YOU KNOW THAT THERE
| ARE SOME MILITANT BUDDHIST GROUPS IN MYANAMAR!!!! WARNING
| WARNING WARNING!!
|
| ???
| enugu wrote:
| Quoting examples without an effort to show that it is
| representative of Buddhist teachings is basically a smear. Like
| starting a discussion on liberalism, not with principles of
| individual freedom, but instead saying that the attempt to
| bring democracy to Iraq is the representative example of
| liberalism.
|
| (Some on the left who oppose liberalism actually do some
| versions of this, quoting Mills on colonialism - but that is a
| genetic fallacy.)
|
| It makes much more sense to say that anytime some
| teaching/philosophy becomes popular at a continental scale, the
| people who are involved in conflicts will try to appropriate it
| to justify their position.
|
| If you want to evaluate the role of the teaching itself, one
| would have to compare it to alternatives and whether they would
| be more easily appropriated.
| keybored wrote:
| > Like starting a discussion on liberalism, not with
| principles of individual freedom, but instead saying that the
| attempt to bring democracy to Iraq is the representative
| example of liberalism.
|
| Some prefer to discuss what a purported ideology or its
| adherents does out in the real world.
| dctoedt wrote:
| > _cultural appropriation going on here_
|
| Can you tell us more about what you mean by "cultural
| appropriation," and how you see it as differing from "imitating
| others' useful practices"?
| keybored wrote:
| That's what comes to my mind when I read things about American-
| style Buddhist meditation. Why don't they mention Myanmar-style
| racism?
| jonaustin wrote:
| It's surprising it doesn't mention the parallels of how both
| quaker and buddhists greatly revere and respect nature.
| teaearlgraycold wrote:
| Quakers often like to worship outside and in forests. I've seen
| and sat in many a set of benches under trees.
| antithesizer wrote:
| Buddhism is a lot less "zen" than Quakerism.
| quacked wrote:
| It's always weird to see Quakerism be mentioned somewhere else. I
| grew up Quaker and still sometimes attend Quaker meeting, and I
| related to his ceiling-tile counting; I used to count the wooden
| boards that formed the ceiling of our meetinghouse.
|
| The best part about Quakerism, in my opinion, is that it teaches
| a very hearty disrespect of un-earned authority without teaching
| disrespect for the concept of authority itself. One of my
| favorite anecdotes is a group of Quakers who refused to doff
| their hats for the King, as they only doff their hats for God.
|
| There's another old practice of refusing to swear on the Bible
| before telling the truth, as that would imply that they weren't
| telling the truth before they were sworn in.
|
| I find the inclusion of Zen in this article is interesting, as
| you won't find the word "Holy" or "God", used, and "Spirit" is
| only used twice, once to comment on how he felt pressured to
| receive a message from it. The original purpose of Quaker silent
| worship was to remove the church-imposed barrier between man and
| God (the "Holy Spirit") so that anyone could be a mouthpiece for
| the wishes and desires of the Spirit. Modern American Quakers,
| especially the ones who write in Friends Journal, tend to be
| pretty secular.
| whatshisface wrote:
| The bible does actually say not to swear.
| neaden wrote:
| "Let your word be 'Yes, Yes' or 'No, No'; anything more than
| this comes from the evil one." Mathew 5:37 NRSV
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| > There's another old practice of refusing to swear on the
| Bible before telling the truth, as that would imply that they
| weren't telling the truth before they were sworn in.
|
| I've always found it extremely odd that anyone swears on the
| Bible, since it pretty plainly says not to do that:
|
| Matthew 5:33-37
|
| "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You
| shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you
| have sworn.' But I say to you, Do not take an oath at all,
| either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth,
| for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of
| the great King. And do not take an oath by your head, for you
| cannot make one hair white or black. Let what you say be simply
| 'Yes' or 'No'; anything more than this comes from evil.
|
| https://www.esv.org/Matthew+5/
| n4r9 wrote:
| There's a great John Stuart Mill quotation from On Liberty
| related to this. In the UK it used to be the case that you
| were barred from testifying in court if you declared yourself
| an atheist.
|
| > Under pretence that atheists must be liars, it admits the
| testimony of all atheists who are willing to lie, and rejects
| only those who brave the obloquy of publicly confessing a
| detested creed rather than affirm a falsehood.
| UncleSlacky wrote:
| That's also why you can't be forced to say the Pledge of
| Allegiance: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State
| _Board_of_E...
|
| "In the 1930s, the president of the Watch Tower Bible and
| Tract Society of Pennsylvania, Joseph Franklin Rutherford,
| began objecting to state laws requiring school students to
| salute the flag as a means of instilling patriotism, and in
| 1936 he declared that baptized Jehovah's Witnesses who
| saluted the flag were breaking their covenant with God and
| were committing idolatry."
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Attended Quaker meeting as a kid growing up as well. I
| appreciated the non-heirarchical aspect of it. No priest or
| anyone "leading" the "worship". No crosses or statuary of any
| kind. A simple room with half the seats in the room facing the
| other half. Occasionally someone broke the silence and said
| something short ... meditative?
|
| When I was told Quakers did not kill, would not take up a gun
| and point it at a fellow human, I was surprised. "What if they
| are trying to kill you?" little kid me asked with incredulity.
| "You cannot even kill in self-defense," I was told.
|
| Even then I could appreciate the seriousness of their
| conviction.
| teaearlgraycold wrote:
| I was raised Quaker myself. As I've gotten older I've gotten
| a more nuanced opinion on this. I think we should have
| humility in a "kill or be killed" scenario. Is it so much
| more important that you live? But also in a theoretical
| scenario that tests my utilitarian side - should I kill to
| save the lives of many people? If so I think it's important
| to acknowledge the wrongness in the killing even if it's the
| lesser of two evils. Far too often people discuss lethal self
| defense or war with pride. If it's something you absolutely
| must do you should not anticipate happiness from the action.
|
| Some Quakers actually joined the American civil war because
| they felt fighting slavery was more important than not
| killing others. So there's a wide range of feelings on
| pacifism within Quakerism.
| DFHippie wrote:
| I was raised Quaker as well and still consider myself
| culturally Quaker, though I'm atheist and attend Meeting
| mostly only at weddings or funerals at this point.
|
| What I value most about Quakerism is the emphasis on
| absolute honesty.
|
| My father took time off college to protest the war -- which
| war, I'm not certain. He found himself questioning whether
| pacifism was truly his belief or something he was brought
| up with. So he enlisted to try out the other side. He
| didn't actually fight, but was trained as an artillery
| surveyor. When his superiors suggested he go to officer
| training school he asked for some time off to think about
| it, then came back three days later having decided he
| wanted to finish college and become a psychiatrist. He met
| my mom at his Quaker college, went back to Meeting, and
| some years later became a psychiatrist (and died shortly
| thereafter, not from the psychiatry). I've always thought
| it was cool that he tested his beliefs like that. His wider
| family was a bit uneasy with his choices but respected his
| process.
| teaearlgraycold wrote:
| Yeah I'd be borderline disowned by my family if I joined
| anything even military adjacent.
|
| The honesty is really the most onerous aspect. I
| absolutely need to be honest with myself or I end up
| miserable. For example, if I work a job that requires me
| to shoulder the burden of my employers cognitive
| dissonance I'll become depressed and force myself to
| quit.
| laurent_du wrote:
| What if they are going to kill your child? I have zero
| respect for this kind of conviction.
| specproc wrote:
| I have to say I'm fortunate enough never to have found
| myself in that situation. Is this something that happens
| regularly in America?
|
| I would comfortably say I completely share this conviction.
| I would not like to find myself in a position where that
| conviction was tested -- such as that you describe -- but
| not killing is almost universally understood to be a
| fundamental law of civilised society.
|
| One can defend oneself and others in a myriad of ways that
| do not involve murder.
| lurk2 wrote:
| > One can defend oneself and others in a myriad of ways
|
| What methods are you referring to? Pepper spray? Aiming
| for the leg?
|
| > that do not involve murder.
|
| By definition if one is defending oneself, one is not
| committing murder.
| qualeed wrote:
| > _By definition if one is defending oneself, one is not
| committing murder._
|
| Despite the fact that I think you understood what they
| were saying perfectly fine, you can substitute "killing
| someone" (or "taking another life", etc.) for "murder" in
| their above sentence if it helps you.
| lurk2 wrote:
| The line of reasoning really only works if you are talking
| about yourself. If we assume all lives are of equal value
| (which is a big assumption but not without precedent), then
| killing your would-be murderer is a wash, but it does raise
| the question; why should _you_ be the one to live? And the
| justification seems like it must be based on either 1) a
| belief that the transgression of attempted murder justifies
| self-defence, or 2) that the Self is simply more important
| than the Other.
|
| When a third party becomes involved you only need to rely
| on option 1. You are still probably acting out of "selfish"
| reasons in this case, however; I'd rather save my child
| than preserve the life of a murderer, but that is simply
| because my child's life is more important to me than that
| of a murderer, regardless of moral justification.
|
| The questions about self-centeredness get more interesting
| in life boat scenarios, where you have to choose between
| equally innocent parties.
| _benton wrote:
| I clicked on this fully expecting it to be about the video
| game...
| magicalhippo wrote:
| The name was originally used as an insult[1], however the
| followers adopted it, thus rendering the insult moot:
|
| _In 1650, Fox was brought before the magistrates Gervase
| Bennet and Nathaniel Barton, on a charge of religious
| blasphemy. According to Fox 's autobiography, Bennet "was the
| first that called us Quakers, because I bade them tremble at
| the word of the Lord". It is thought that Fox was referring to
| Isaiah 66:2 or Ezra 9:4. Thus the name Quaker began as a way of
| ridiculing Fox's admonition, but became widely accepted and
| used by some Quakers_
|
| [1]:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers#Beginnings_in_England
| mekoka wrote:
| Having only recently been made aware of Quakerism myself, I also
| came to the conclusion that it should have a more prevalent
| mention as a sub-current of Christian Mysticism. That association
| may potentially create a bridge to other similar mystical
| contemplative traditions, nowadays sometimes labeled under the
| umbrella term "nonduality", which includes Zen, Advaita, Daoism,
| Sufism, among others. As Meister Eckhart said, "Theologians may
| quarrel, but the mystics of the world speak the same language".
| codemonkey-zeta wrote:
| If you're interested in that, read up on Shakerism, a now
| almost-extinct branch of Quakerism that had an even stronger
| focus on mysticism.
| turbofreak wrote:
| Surprisingly this is a very level headed post. I'm not a Buddhist
| or a Zenist or a Quakerist but I'm glad the author not once beat
| me over the head with how enlightened they are, or worse, throw
| pithy quotes my way.
| magicalhippo wrote:
| At least for the Quakers I know, they are very deliberate in
| not projecting their beliefs onto others. If you ask they will
| answer, but they will not try to convince you of neither this
| nor that.
| hansonkd wrote:
| To the point of the article: A lot of Quakers dont label their
| worship as meditation. The point of quaker worship is to open
| your heart to "listen". The point of meditation is often
| mindfulness. there is some overlap but i think it is a different
| ends from similar means.
|
| Another contrast is quaker worship is done in a community looking
| inward towards the center of the room, Zen meditation when done
| in a temple is done looking at the wall. for me this is a
| contrast between the quaker "society of friends" and zen can be
| done in isolation
|
| Quakers for me have a special place in my heart.
|
| I'm a bit sad that in California there are very few Quaker
| communities when compared to Buddhist or Zen communities. The
| quaker communities that do exist seem to be hanging on from the
| counterculture movement several decades ago.
|
| I've attended a Quaker community for the past couple of years and
| sadly it is dying out. Almost all of the members are past 60 y/o
| and almost zero young adult members or younger members attend.
|
| I think the Quaker philosophy is powerful and unfortunately i
| believe it has lead to its downfall. The lack of creed and
| resistance to structure makes it hard for new members to feel
| comfortable and make it easy to be more casual about your
| membership. this leads to people just dropping out.
|
| also the structure of quaker practices can seem offputting for
| people from more conventional religious backgrounds. For example
| christmas "celebrations" are done entirely in silence from the
| moment you enter to when you leave. this is a staggering contrast
| to almost every other celebration. (also in contrast to most of
| christianity a lot of quakers dont believe jesus was "holy" but
| rather an ordinary man who was more in touch with the "light",
| underscoring the intensity of their egalitarian beliefs)
|
| I think Quaker has a branding problem. People think of quaker
| oats or amish. (amish have nothing to do with quakers). Zen is
| more trendy and "mystical". If quakerism was "rebranded" a lot
| more people would be attracted to it.
|
| My heart yearns for more Quaker communities. Its so sad to see
| them die out.
| raphlinus wrote:
| Have you attended recently, as in the past few months? Maybe
| our meeting is special because it's Berkeley, but we have a
| solid core of young people regularly attending. I was on
| Nominating Committee last cycle, and we've gotten a number of
| Young Friends, where in the recent past it's been pretty much
| aging members.
|
| You might be right about rebranding, but to me a lot of what
| appeals is the focus on the substance rather than perceptions.
| hermitcrab wrote:
| I'm an Atheist, but I greatly respect Quakers for starting many
| important movements and organizations including Amnesty
| International, Oxfam and Greenpeace.
| yapyap wrote:
| Would be nice if they explain what the heck a Quaker is, I
| thought this was gonna be an article on the peace of playing
| Quake and when I released it wasn't that I thought of the Quaker
| oats but not much more than that
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