[HN Gopher] Puerto Rico's Solar Microgrids Beat Blackout
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Puerto Rico's Solar Microgrids Beat Blackout
Author : ohjeez
Score : 331 points
Date : 2025-06-25 23:41 UTC (23 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (spectrum.ieee.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (spectrum.ieee.org)
| amoshebb wrote:
| I love solar, but this "those who can afford microgrids can
| shield themselves from blackouts" paired with net metering where
| "the wealthy get paid a premium for excess generation and can buy
| expensive high-demand power back at a discount" probably aren't
| steps on the path to improved grid resiliency for any definition
| other than this weird "no island-wide outages" definition.
| rstupek wrote:
| The alternative way to look at it is that early adopters get
| the volume up such that the price comes down to where more
| people can afford it?
| ta988 wrote:
| This doesn't solve the issue of either storage or continous
| (and controllable) supply.
| numpad0 wrote:
| Solar output is also proportionate to area of sunlight
| projection. This means the theoretical capacity available to
| you is proportionate to real estate, area of planetary
| surface, under your ownership.
| lukan wrote:
| And the area you own is theoretical proportionate to your
| avaibale money.
|
| So yes, rich people can obviously have more of it all, like
| with everything else that money can buy. But is this really
| a point worth going in deeper here?
|
| I see the point as in "solar power plus battery is good",
| creates resillence, please more of it.
|
| Unfair distribution of wealth is a different problem.
|
| And here concreteley the article lacks for me details, what
| exactly the work on the grid means, if it is really about
| fossils vs solar, but microgrids that can connect to each
| other sounds like a pragmatic solution to me.
| bluefirebrand wrote:
| > Unfair distribution of wealth is a different problem
|
| Unfortunately, all problems are eventually going to come
| down to this. Or many problems are, if not "all"
|
| We can't fix a lot of the problems facing our society and
| our planet with "only wealthy can afford this" solutions
| lukan wrote:
| "We can't fix a lot of the problems facing our society
| and our planet with "only wealthy can afford this"
| solutions"
|
| And I think, we can't fix a lot of _technical_ problems
| if we make everything about money distribution.
|
| Besides, solar plus battery became really cheap. And get
| cheaper every day.
|
| And this work to connect such microgrids is potentially
| beneficial for poor areas all around the world.
|
| But no, it doesn't solve the issue of extreme poverty,
| but why would it?
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| Microgrids at that size are the most expensive way to get
| resilience. If they're pragmatic for many people then
| something has failed and we should work to fix it.
|
| Bigger ones have a better tradeoffs, so I'm not so harsh
| on towns having their own grids. Still unsure whether
| it's a good use of funds.
| numpad0 wrote:
| It's not just redistribution, land is an already heavily
| overcommitted resource on Earth. China, for example,
| holds basically same amount of land as US, for its 4x
| population, and they house the people in things like
| dozens per each clusters of 50-story condominiums.
|
| In places like that - that but not necessarily
| specifically China or Asia, local proprietors would head
| to forested mountains unfit for residences, and actively
| desertify it to put on PVs to collect incentives, if
| incentivized. The cost is externalized and paid
| collectively in such forms as raised atmospheric CO2
| levels and micro disasters like mountain landslides.
|
| Resilient solar-battery off/micro-grid is great if you
| live "by yourself" in relative sense and doing so would
| allow removal of electrical transmission lines with own
| costs and externalities, but it's far from panacea, if
| not opposite - it's a specific and somewhat radical
| solution to specific problems.
|
| Now, as to whether such dystopian Bladerunner cities on
| Earth that has to rely on fission/fusion should exist in
| real life, it's probably deeply wrong that they do. But
| we're not cutting down Earth's population by 90% to fix
| that, and wealth redistribution is a minor part of the
| reason it would be wrong.
| lukan wrote:
| "local proprietors would head to forested mountains unfit
| for residences, and actively desertify it to put on PVs
| to collect incentives, if incentivized."
|
| Can you give me one example, where PVs contributed to
| desertification?
|
| Usually it is the contrary, in the shade of the PVs, more
| can grow than in direct burning sunlight.
|
| And there are plenty of non forest land, or literal
| dessert land tp put PV there and if forest gets cut, than
| for other reasons than PV. And china is actually quite
| active in combating desertification with green belts and
| recently, PVs.
| numpad0 wrote:
| https://coloradomtn.edu/news/cmc-news/new-solar-array-
| and-ba...
|
| https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/sci-tech/mountaintop-solar-
| farm...
|
| www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/photo/birds-eye-view-of-the-
| solar-power-plant-and-lush-royalty-free-image/1338844539
|
| www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/photo/aerial-view-of-solar-
| power-station-royalty-free-image/1045649830
|
| https://www.ecoportal.net/en/carpeting-mountains-with-
| solar-...
|
| Just go look at it if you were looking for shocking
| images. Notice how suspiciously flat patches appear in
| the mountains just for the PVs and notice how panels
| often seem recessed below top of existing trees. The
| process of solar farm construction in such areas begins
| by clearing out existing life. That's how it's done. It
| doesn't go like, you just pick a dead land on map and
| giving out a free nice shed for local scorpions.
|
| I mean, look at even East Coast of the US on Google Maps.
| Pick any areas just off a city and zoom in. There would
| be towns, farmlands, forests, mountains, or combinations
| thereof. If you do the same in the West Coast, you are
| more likely to hit such suitable flats that can host mega
| electricity farms and benefit from it, sure, but that's
| not even universally American thing.
|
| Then you'd ask, can't those deserts like Gobi or Sahara
| or whatever provide enough land for PVs and PVs be good
| for those? Maybe, but that's terraforming scale of
| projects. Not microgrids.
|
| It's not like skyscraper residential buildings exist
| solely because it's convenient to confine workers near
| factory sites or because the laborers own nothing - it
| starts appearing when it becomes impossible to simply
| distribute immediately available lands and land had
| become a contested resource. Think why they don't just
| expand cities outward or build new city cores. They don't
| because those buildings are solution to that becoming
| impossible. And with that, think again why they just go
| out and build those microgrids in cheap unused flat areas
| outside the city. Because there is no cheap unused flat
| areas outside the city.
| Dylan16807 wrote:
| Solar panels are already so cheap that household solar is
| mostly about the installation price.
|
| And more people affording their own panels is still a lot
| more expensive than fixing the grid.
| closewith wrote:
| But batteries aren't, and batteries are both the key
| technology for load shifting and the biggest expense in
| modern installations.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| 5kWh of batteries is under $1000. That's enough for load
| shifting for most people. Even if you need several of
| them, that's still going to be cheaper than installation
| labor.
| eldaisfish wrote:
| where are you buying 5 kWH of batteries for under $
| 1,000? The typical 5 kWh battery in Canada is C$ 3,000 -
| 4,000.
| the_pwner224 wrote:
| https://signaturesolar.com/all-
| products/batteries/?_bc_fsnf=...
|
| Server rack style, 1200 USD for 4.8 kWh = $250/kWh. Wall-
| mount, 14.3 kWh for $3.3k = $231/kWh.
|
| These guys seem to be the biggest DIY solar equipment
| supplier in the US.
|
| Afaik you can get batteries from China (AliExpress) for
| quite a bit cheaper too.
| layoric wrote:
| Agreed. From first hand experience, even for regulated
| electricity markets, games get played to maximize profit per
| power generated that are directly making stability worse.
| Fixing these loop holes is hard for the regulator since they
| are instructed to encourage both increased renewable
| penetration and stability, despite traders/operators/producers
| not acting in good faith and just gaming whatever they can.
| colechristensen wrote:
| A healthy regulated will encourage maximizing profit for
| power and bring in competition which drives the cost down
| until energy is a commodity and the cost of electricity is
| actually based on the price of production and a small profit
| based on the cost of capital. Any situations that cause price
| spikes result in investment to harvest the difference.
|
| The fact that you can add to the grid by installing solar and
| battery and connect to the grid in a single afternoon makes
| it pretty easy these days to have an elastic market that
| grows until you hit the limit of decentralized production vs.
| existing transmission architecture... but with the right
| equipment you can have community sized islands that can be
| much more immune to instability.
| mcbishop wrote:
| Net metering is gone in most of California (for new solar). I
| think it's going away in general. Distributed solar supports a
| more stable grid for everyone (per UL 1741-SB requirements).
| amoshebb wrote:
| the article is about Puerto Rico, not California, and
| specifically mentions net metering.
| matthewdgreen wrote:
| I think the poster's point is that net metering is a tool
| to promote early adoption of solar, and (in at least one
| prominent example) when solar penetration becomes high
| enough for it to impact grid stability, larger grids have
| removed net metering. So to address GP poster's point: net
| metering affecting grid stability in a substantial way is
| more a theoretical concern that's already been addressed in
| one of the locations where it stopped being theoretical.
| toast0 wrote:
| It depends on the terms of the net metering.
|
| If it's the ancient practice of crediting on a one for one
| basis, yeah that doesn't help. (A look around says that's
| probably where PR is now). If they credit power delivered to
| the grid based on conditions when it was delivered, then that
| might help. With appropriate controls, storage can increase
| grid stability. It would probably be more cost effective to do
| utility scale storage projects, but project management is
| difficult in PR; letting those with personal capital hook up
| solar+batteries and send some of that onto the grid when demand
| is high seems useful?
| floatrock wrote:
| What's the alternative? Equity is important, sure, but to swing
| all the way towards "only a centralized grid should be allowed
| in order to make sure all have the same level access" is a
| head-in-the-sands approach that ignores realities such as how
| the centralized grid out there has metastasized into a non-
| functional bureaucratic blame-shifting machine (at least
| measured by the increasing frequency of outages). A centralized
| grid also never actually delivers true equitable access.
|
| One alternative is decentralization, and the article talks
| about that:
|
| > The town's local environmental nonprofit Casa Pueblo teamed
| up with researchers from the U.S. Department of Energy's Oak
| Ridge National Laboratory in Oak Ridge, Tenn., to develop a way
| to connect multiple microgrids to exchange power with one
| another, all without having to be hooked up to Puerto Rico's
| grid. The strategy, called grid orchestration, ensures that if
| power is knocked out on one of the installations, the others
| aren't compromised.
|
| Is it the wealthy that are doing that? Maybe? Probably? But
| isn't that how any R&D technology investment starts?
|
| It's also involving a government-funded lab to re-envision how
| these systems could work to achieve resiliency through
| coordinated decentralization. And if there's any truth to
| trickle-down economics, it would have to be in something that
| allows for a decentralized approach accessible to many, not a
| centralized approach that only rewards r > g accumulation.
| Sounds like a good use of government research funding to me.
| dotancohen wrote:
| From what I understand, most homes that are connected to both
| solar and the grid require the grid to be active to produce
| solar. This is for two reasons. One, not to endanger lineman
| working on the grid. And two, the solar AC cycle must be
| synchronized with the grid AC cycle.
|
| Are these homes not also connected to the grid? Or is there some
| technology that addresses these two issues that are in use in
| Puerto Rico?
| slipheen wrote:
| If you use a string inverter not a emphase style microinverter,
| most of them are capable of running without the grid-
| Particularly if you add any sort of battery system.
|
| These use a form of transfer switch like you'd use when you
| connect a generator- they disconnect the upstream.
| mcbishop wrote:
| You can run sans grid with Enphase (with their "system
| controller").
| zie wrote:
| This is true, but if you add in local batteries attached to the
| solar, you can have a device that works in basically all
| situations. If disconnected from the grid, it can run off
| battery instead of just not working.
|
| I haven't read the OP link yet, but my guess is they are doing
| something like this: Grid, Solar and batteries.
| lukan wrote:
| "Grid, Solar and batteries."
|
| They are doing microgrids, that connect to each other.
| zie wrote:
| Aka a grid. Sure, this is a newer version of the grid, that
| allows local failover, but it's just a grid.
|
| Maybe we can upgrade the other grids to do this too. That
| would be fabulous.
| maxerickson wrote:
| It's just a coordination problem.
|
| You are also sort of conflating "loss of interconnect" with
| "outage'.
| ethan_smith wrote:
| Microgrids use specialized inverters with islanding capability
| and automatic transfer switches that disconnect from the main
| grid during outages, allowing them to operate independently
| while maintaining their own frequency regulation.
| pmontra wrote:
| If your home is isolated from the grid you don't have to worry
| about syncing your 50/60 Hz. A UPS during a blackout is an
| example. I experienced it myself.
|
| I have no idea about the hurdles of keeping in sync many
| batteries in many homes connected together. This is not even
| something I thought about before the news of the blackout in
| Spain months ago.
| fencepost wrote:
| Keeping in sync isn't as much of a problem as you might
| think, it simply requires that everything able to feed into
| the grid has to accept the grid as authoritative for syncing.
|
| Relevant are some of Chris Boden's videos about bringing up a
| hydro power plant and his comment that you have to be in sync
| with the grid when you actually connect because the turbine
| _WILL_ sync to the grid at connection and if it was incorrect
| before then there will be a lot of loud angry noises from the
| equipment. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGQxSJmadm0
| paranoidrobot wrote:
| I think you're looking for the term "islanding".
|
| It's becoming more and more common for PV systems with a
| battery system to be able to work in an islanded mode, and more
| importantly - they're legal and code compliant to do so.
|
| When the grid goes down/out of spec, they disconnect the home
| from the grid and continue to power locally.
|
| Examples of this include Tesla and Sigenergy.
|
| Some are able to do this in very short periods and able to
| operate effectively as a whole-house UPS. Some will have a
| flickr of the lights and maybe some sensitive devices will
| restart. Others will take some period of time to disconnect
| from the grid and run in islanded mode.
| defrost wrote:
| For general interest, Western Australia's State Power company
| has a variety of battery application cases that it assists
| with; home batteries, community batteries, fully stand alone,
| microgrids (with batteries).
|
| https://www.westernpower.com.au/resources-
| education/consumer...
|
| https://www.wa.gov.au/organisation/energy-policy-wa/wa-
| resid...
|
| West and South Australia are a fair way down the integrated
| renewables pathway with a high percentage of household
| rooftop solar, mixed rural PV farms, wind power, battery
| farms, etc.
| Simon_O_Rourke wrote:
| Is this more of a battery cost issue - if you owned a battery
| that charged off the grid and discharged during blackout periods
| then that might just about cover you if you budget for the
| expected outage duration.... And assuming you can afford said
| battery in the first place.
| ema wrote:
| Depends on the length of the blackouts, if it's more than a day
| then solar panels will allow you to lower the amount of
| batteries you get.
| pyrale wrote:
| > if you owned a battery that charged off the grid and
| discharged during blackout periods
|
| This wouldn't work. The reason isolated units can inject
| electricity back into the grid without issue is that they can
| observe frequency. If a blackout occurs, this information is
| gone. You need to perform a black start, which can't be done by
| isolated, uncoordinated equipments.
| magicalhippo wrote:
| Pretty sure GP was talking about a UPS, not feeding the grid.
| 1dom wrote:
| I don't think that applies for microgrids, or at least, it's
| not really an issue in my case.
|
| I know what you're talking about though: I think that more
| applies to generators that are operating with megawatts and
| take time for turbines to spin up and stuff. Microgrids are
| normally instantaneous battery buffered type things. They can
| instantly deliver power at the frequency range mandated for
| the national grid.
| philjohn wrote:
| What you actually need is islanding equipment which
| discharges the battery for local use only, but cuts off (or
| islands you from) your main incoming power connection.
|
| Many of the PV systems you can buy from the big players
| (SolarEdge, Tesla and more) support this, often calling it
| "whole home backup".
|
| Same principle as having a generator with an interlock.
| mattmaroon wrote:
| The problem is the blackouts can go for lengths of time that
| would require impractically large battery installs. You can
| powerwall your way around a grid that frequently goes down for
| a few hours to a day, but one that may go down for days to
| months you are practically forced into some form of generation
| (solar or otherwise).
|
| Batteries keep getting cheaper but are unlikely to get to where
| it's more affordable to store a month's worth of electricity
| than just buying some generation.
| chilldsgn wrote:
| I don't know much about electrical grids, but I'm wondering if
| something like this concept could help South Africa with its
| endlessly struggling electrical grid problems. My city constantly
| has power outages and the majority of people cannot afford
| installing solar into their homes.
| happymellon wrote:
| From what I understand, South Africa's electrical problems have
| been long term political.
| cinntaile wrote:
| That's the case everywhere in the world, it's not a tech
| issue. The tech exists.
| nbadg wrote:
| The technology certainly exists, though some of it is
| pretty new and not all of it is mature or commoditized
| (particularly in the context of high levels of penetration
| of variable renewables on the grid).
|
| That being said, politics aren't the only reason why it
| might not be deployed. Capitalization issues, for one, are
| also common. Additionally, you have to make a judgement
| call about what you consider included in "politics" -- for
| example, does corruption count?
| happymellon wrote:
| Not always, sometimes its logistics, sometimes outside
| forces which create time pressures.
|
| Not everything can be solved by money, sometimes its a
| mythical man month/9 women can't produce a baby in 1 month
| issue.
|
| However in this scenario, its pure neglect which is causing
| power issues.
| AdamN wrote:
| In this case though, high reliability electricity
| delivery is very doable. Many countries achieve 3 9s or
| higher. Sure there are the issues like the recent
| Spain/Portugal blackout but even that has some political
| roots.
| cogman10 wrote:
| Renewables solve logistics problems.
|
| Running a fossil fuel grid requires a bunch of logistics
| to source, refine, and deliver the fuel. In addition to
| general equipment upkeep.
|
| Renewables only require equipment upkeep.
| hinkley wrote:
| Most of those problems are politically motivated. You
| know how fast towns tend to grow. Someone new the grid
| was going to need upgrades. Someone else decided it would
| be better spent on something else. That's politics.
|
| And if a town grows surprisingly fast, that may also be
| politics. Even geopolitics (eg, refugees).
| mc32 wrote:
| It's a corruption issue where certain people use it as a
| personal bank. Lots of deferred maintenance, no build out,
| but lots of greed -not just a little.
| cinntaile wrote:
| The political system there clearly allows for high levels
| of corruption.
| chithanh wrote:
| It is not necessary for the majority to install solar.
|
| Pakistan had similar problems with rolling blackouts, and mass
| import of photovoltaic equipment and batteries from China has
| reduced the load on the grid so that outages no longer occur
| frequently. In fact the demand has shrunk so much that it
| jeopardizes financing of coal power companies.
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43620309
| dylan604 wrote:
| > In fact the demand has shrunk so much that it jeopardizes
| financing of coal power companies.
|
| That is something that I think would be the impetus needed to
| motivate reduction in coal power plants. If they become
| unprofitable to operate, then will the market finally decide
| to stop using them? Sadly, I could see the current US
| administration deciding to offer subsidies to keep coal.
| chithanh wrote:
| Yes, it is happening already (both the pivot away from
| unprofitable non-renewable energy, and US government
| intervention to tax imports of photovoltaics).
|
| Levelized Cost of Electricity (LCE) from PV is below the
| fossil fuel range since 2020, and since 2024 it is also
| below if you include battery storage, which you need to
| turn solar into near constant energy supply.
|
| https://www.irena.org/Publications/2024/Sep/Renewable-
| Power-...
|
| https://electrek.co/2025/06/20/batteries-are-so-cheap-now-
| so...
| miningape wrote:
| Eskom is already trying to take people to court over "non-
| compliant" solar panel installations [1]. I wouldn't hold my
| breath. Like most things in ANC South Africa this is a
| political issue where Eskom wants to get their cut for
| providing a non-existent service - and then funnel that money
| back to their friends and family for their non-existent
| services.
|
| [1] https://www.ecr.co.za/shows/stacey-jsbu/eskom-cracks-down-
| no...
| throw83838484 wrote:
| More likely it is local goverment. Theymake a profit on
| reselling cheap energy provided by Eskom.
| PicassoCTs wrote:
| They tried that - especially companies like BMW - and they got
| no permits, because the state run power company wants money for
| providing nothing.
|
| The problem is also that thieves steal the copper cables, even
| for micro-grids. You can not tech your way out of
| social/cultural problems.
|
| Socialist cultural rot is real and the only way out is to
| eradicate cultures that encourage that mindset. All the
| ingredients are there- but the people are still set on telling
| themselves that robin hood story that destroys everything.
| soco wrote:
| Could you please explain the "socialist cultural rot" and the
| "eradicate cultures"? You might mean something totally
| sensible but this wording is quite triggering to me.
| PicassoCTs wrote:
| Everywhere socialist movements like the ANC take hold-
| there sets in a "im going to extract as much as i can from
| the state as he extracts from me - while giving him
| nothing" mindset. Its prevalent in the older generations in
| the eastern european block countries, china - its almost
| universal where the socialist experiment was run. The
| idealized society does not mesh and work with human nature
| at all, in fact it brings out the worst.
|
| The old people of china, still steal paper towels on public
| toilets, because "take it all, while its there, before its
| gone" is the mindset encouraged. They brought you the
| tourists-"buffet rush"-genre of videos on youtube.
|
| Of course this leads to dysfunction and misery- which then
| leads to conspiracy - of "they took it". Its ultimately
| another version of low-thrust society unable to function.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-trust_and_low-
| trust_socie...
|
| A ugly side-effect that lingers for decades. Re-
| distribution and retribution, do not increase the size of
| the cake. Hard work rewarded does!
| soco wrote:
| Ok, this makes sense. I would only add the low-trust
| society evolving in the west, including the US, which is
| definitely not caused by socialism. Maybe it's just the
| way we (all) fall?
| miningape wrote:
| > which is definitely not caused by socialism
|
| Currently, in western countries, socialist policies to
| import the 3rd world and open borders are directly
| responsible for the lowering social trust.
|
| > "immigrant rights are workers rights" is not mere
| rhetoric, and that the defense of migrants and refugees -
| the vast majority of whom are poor workers - is pivotal
| to the struggle of the entire global working class
| regardless of national origin. [1]
|
| [1]
| https://sfarchive.dsausa.org/issues/fall-2019/editorial-
| note...
| supplied_demand wrote:
| == Currently, in western countries, socialist policies to
| import the 3rd world and open borders are directly
| responsible for the lowering social trust.==
|
| I don't know of any western country with an "open
| borders" policy, can you provide one? Is there a part of
| the US's 250 year history where we weren't bringing in
| immigrants from poorer countries to provide cheap labor?
| miningape wrote:
| For very specific examples you can look towards the EU's
| decades long stance on immigration which resulted in the
| refugee crisis since (and before) 2015, as well as
| countless integration and immigration issues (cf Sweden,
| France, Italy, etc.).
|
| The socialist and left wing coalition have consistently
| voted against measures to improve border security and
| tighten the restrictions for people wanting to enter [1].
| As people have become increasingly frustrated with these
| policies they've increasingly voted in right wing and
| conservative parties (in comparison to the ruling
| parties) [2].
|
| We can also look towards the UK where socialist politics
| have been a mainstay since the 90s, to the point where
| now the Prime Minister (Kier Starmer, Labour) is a self-
| proclaimed socialist [3]. This is of course directly tied
| to the waves of mass migration under Tony Blair (Labour)
| which also resulted in the Socialist Party splitting from
| Labour because he wasn't "radical enough" [4].
|
| [1] https://theconversation.com/what-are-the-eus-new-
| migration-r...
|
| [2] https://www.brookings.edu/articles/understanding-
| europes-tur...
|
| [3] https://www.vice.com/en/article/keir-starmer-i-still-
| see-mys...
|
| [4] https://www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/94799/27-0
| 4-2022/...
| Loudergood wrote:
| The refugee crises are largely "Push" driven not "Pull"
| driven.
| overfeed wrote:
| ...and the "push" was caused by alliances of western
| countries destabilizing the migrants' home countries.
| anonfordays wrote:
| That "push" is pressure, and Western leftists opened the
| valve wide open to allow all the flow into the West.
| naasking wrote:
| > Is there a part of the US's 250 year history where we
| weren't bringing in immigrants from poorer countries to
| provide cheap labor?
|
| Pretty sure they're referring to a de facto open border
| policy, where you basically permit all sorts of illegal
| immigration and don't really enforce the laws. Accepting
| immigrants at Ellis island was not illegal immigration,
| for instance, but crossings at the southern border often
| have been.
| paulryanrogers wrote:
| The West is slipping because the rich privatize the
| profits and socialize the costs. It's the worst of both
| models.
|
| The USA thrived when free markets and value creation were
| encouraged yet heavily regulated. That way the benefits
| _and_ costs didn 't become too concentrated
| miningape wrote:
| I just want to add on to your reply to justify why it's
| correct to call the ANC a socialist party that is causing
| the cultural and economic collapse of South Africa.
|
| You could look towards their policies inspired by
| socialist thought a.k.a. "social justice" (BEE and
| expropriation). These policies are actively harmful to
| development while also turning off any potential
| investors, and are deeply rooted in socialist ideology.
|
| You can look towards their roots being funded and
| directly aided by the Soviets, China, Cuba, and several
| others. Especially their military (terrorist) and
| propaganda training which was heavily influenced by
| Soviet foreign policy.
|
| You can look towards their re-alignment of the country's
| economic and foreign policy to engage with the 2nd world,
| while turning off 1st world investors. This has given us
| strong economic ties with Russia, China, and Iran. While
| most of these relationships are useless, the Chinese
| relationship has been especially damaging to the
| development, maintenance, and sovereignty of our national
| physical infrastructure.
|
| But the most damning evidence is the insane socialist
| parties that have spawned out of the fracturing of the
| ANC such as the MK and EFF parties (both militant
| socialist parties, formed by ex ANC leaders). While their
| socialist rhetoric had to be contained while apart of the
| ANC (so as to not further turn off investors), the ANC's
| weakening grip has allowed these nutjobs to become
| serious contenders in the political race. If you were
| wondering what the "kill the boer" chants were about they
| were at political rallies held by the EFF (Julius Malema)
| - part of the EFF's kit is a red beret (I wonder where
| they got that from?).
|
| Voetsek to any champagne socialist that wants to ruin yet
| another country because it makes them feel good to
| support people and ideologies they do not understand.
| overfeed wrote:
| > Voetsek to any champagne socialist that wants to ruin
| yet another country
|
| I take it you don't consider the country to have veen
| ruined under apartheid - aka socialism for whites,
| rugged-capitalism for everyone else.
| miningape wrote:
| Care to explain how an ethno-nationalist government
| implemented socialism?
|
| > I take it you don't consider the country to have veen
| ruined under apartheid
|
| Wether or not I consider the country to have been ruined
| under apartheid is irrelevant to the fact that the ANC is
| dragging it back to the stone age.
|
| The ANC was handed a functioning economy, solid
| infrastructure, and hope for a better future - there are
| now rolling blackouts across the country, soaring
| unemployment, and a birth rate higher than the GDP growth
| rate. And that hope for a better future? All but gone -
| There are more race based laws _today_ than there were
| under apartheid.
|
| I'm glad apartheid ended 30 years ago, I'm not glad with
| the direction we're going now. These are not the same
| thing - you trying to portray it as such says more about
| your views than it does mine.
| telllikeitisguy wrote:
| Your responses are filled with non-specific references to
| online memes that suggest that you don't actually
| understand the problem in any deep sense (i.e you just
| have a gripe). I'm not going to defend ANCs policy
| decisions, but you can just point to specific decisions
| they made and the resulting outcome. You can't just
| handwave and repeat socialism/capitalism/Trotskyites like
| some mantra and expect everyone to take you seriously.
| miningape wrote:
| Not sure exactly which part of my response repeated
| socialism/capitalism/Trotskyites? And I gave 4 specific
| outcomes which are easily tied to ANC policy decisions
| given they've ruled the country for the last 30 years
| (blackouts, unemployment, birthrate > GDP growth, number
| of race based laws).
|
| I'll grant you "dragging us back to the stone age" is an
| obvious meme.
|
| Did you even read my comment?
| overfeed wrote:
| > Care to explain how an ethno-nationalist government
| implemented socialism?
|
| By using the state treasury to provide disproportionate
| infrastructure and services to the ruling ethic minority,
| while leaving the bantustans - with no say in national
| politics or budget - to largely fend for themselves. This
| incidentally has similarities to the US/Puerto Rico
| dynamic.
|
| All the things you complain about can be explained by
| regression to mean[1], which the not even the apartheid
| government would have been able to prevent had they
| decided to adopt an egalitarian governance model.
|
| edit: I didn't even get into how the "ethno-nationalist
| government" seized the means of production for the
| express benefit of a specific ethno.
|
| 1. I fully expect that the per-capita X (for any X you're
| claiming is worse) has actually improved for South
| Africans - _all_ South Africans - between 1990 and now.
| miningape wrote:
| > State capacity has collapsed across many government
| functions that are essential for a functioning economy.
| Critical network industries, including electricity,
| transport infrastructure and services, security, and
| water and sanitation have experienced major
| deteriorations over the last 15 years [1]
|
| > While the racial composition of wealth at the top has
| changed, wealth concentration in South Africa has not and
| remains very high. [1]
|
| > while the standard of living has increased for a
| minority of formerly disadvantaged South Africans and a
| small black middle class has emerged, there are still
| huge disparities in both material and subjective well-
| being [2]
|
| > In 2010, the majority of citizens still hoped for basic
| necessities, income and employment, to enhance their
| quality of life. [2]
|
| So no, there is no mean reversion caused by a broader
| sharing of (the same set of) resources - in fact the
| policies leading to worsening infrastructure and economic
| disproportionally negatively impact the poor, black
| population [3]
|
| The examples I've given (blackouts, unemployment, etc.)
| are governance and capacity failures above and beyond any
| "regression to the mean" effect.
|
| [1] https://conversableeconomist.com/2023/11/20/south-
| africas-ec... [2] https://link.springer.com/article/10.10
| 07/s11205-012-0120-y [3]
| https://qz.com/africa/1435910/blackouts-in-africa-affect-
| the...
| vladms wrote:
| I am sure a capitalist system will NOT work great for a
| tribe of hunter gatherers!
|
| The problem is not the socialist type of ideas, it is
| whom you are applying them to and at what point. The
| society must have certain complexity, capabilities and
| resources to be successful "socialist".
|
| Going from feudalism to socialism was shown repeatedly
| not to work (ex: Russia, China). The countries that are
| currently more socialist and successful were not
| primarily feudal when they applied the socialist ideas.
| Also, there are huge differences in what is called
| "socialism"...
|
| Even in the USA, capitalist came with "socialist ideas",
| like Henry Ford that said that one more free day will
| boost his overall sales, but the moment was right. I
| think he could not have done the same 100 years before.
| kashunstva wrote:
| > eradicate cultures
|
| Political movements that have sought to "eradicate cultures"
| have generally gone pretty poorly in history.
|
| I read the clarifications downstream; and I gather that the
| intent here is not as malicious as it sounds. That said, I
| don't see how the mindset of "I'm going to maximize my
| extraction from the system." is substantively different from
| "I'm going to minimize my input into the system." The net
| effect is similar. For example, the current U.S. president
| paid no taxes for years through various dodges, a fact about
| which he boasted and which he defended. But without a doubt
| he is extracting disproportionate benefits.
|
| Undoubtedly corruption is rampant in the systems you refer
| to; but all of these things exist in democratic free-market
| economies as well.
| PicassoCTs wrote:
| Islamism has eradicated basically every other culture in
| the middle east. Western market capitalism has supplanted a
| ton of cultures in east asia. If its toxic and
| dysfunctional it has to go, or your country deteriorates
| into another Zimbabwe or Russia.
|
| PS: There are a ton of versions of working culture out
| there, that are not western. Pick one and run with it. But
| picking a repeatedly failing one is a sentence for decay
| and destruction.
| philipallstar wrote:
| South Africa's problem is the ANC stopped Eskom building what
| it needed with foreseen growth when they came into power in the
| 90s. They wanted to introduce competition into the generation
| market.
|
| They didn't introduce competition, as you might expect from a
| hyper-incompetent government, and just let the issue languish,
| and South Africa now just doesn't have enough power plants to
| serve its population when it takes one offline for scheduled
| maintenance.
|
| But at least a lot more people got to buy Audis with the freed-
| up money sloshing around.
| hinkley wrote:
| In cases where transmission lines are hitting capacity
| particularly on hot days, this is a place where batteries can
| help. Peak shaving is can't help you with grids that are
| oversubscribed for more than a few hours a day but they can
| help load shift for part of the day. The batteries can still
| have value for emissions reductions if and when you finally get
| right of ways for more power distribution.
| danans wrote:
| Based on what I see in the photo in the article, PV array codes
| in Puerto Rico must be quite different from those in California,
| because the arrays seem to cover almost the entirety of the
| roofs. In California fire access codes [1] prevent the entire
| roof from being covered like in PV that.
|
| 1. https://energycodeace.com/site/custom/public/reference-
| ace-2...
| heliodor wrote:
| The vast majority of roofs in Puerto Rico are flat and the vast
| majority of buildings are made of cinder blocks and concrete.
| blitzar wrote:
| Likely because they have building codes that prevent the
| construction of houses from matchsticks.
| potato3732842 wrote:
| It has nothing to do with construction and everything to do
| with rainfall.
|
| I can throw a lit road flare into my back yard and nothing
| will happen, because I don't live in a glorified desert. PR
| is an order of magnitude wetter than where I live.
| pjc50 wrote:
| What's the rationale for that? It's not a rule in the UK. I'm
| not sure who's going to be walking on the roof of a building
| that's on fire.
| KaiserPro wrote:
| looking at the linked doc, its so that the roof can easily be
| opened to let smoke out.
|
| I'm not an expert, but I've not seen in the UK (well apart
| from thatched roofs) firefighters opening the roof to get
| access.
| pythonbase wrote:
| Solar power is working wonders for rural and urban Pakistan. In
| fact, we became the largest importer of solar panels.
| jahnu wrote:
| I learned about it on this episode of Volts
|
| Fascinating consequences
|
| https://www.volts.wtf/p/pakistans-solar-boom
| subscribed wrote:
| This is actually fantastic news. I wonder if you're also
| utilising their secondary purpose (shading and improving
| microclimat https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/p
| ii/S00489...)
| hinkley wrote:
| India has had good luck building solar panels over irrigation
| canals. The shade substantially reduces the evaporation losses
| in the canal system. The framing is a bit tricky of course.
| 0cf8612b2e1e wrote:
| California announced they were going to do the same.
| hinkley wrote:
| Yeah the channelized sections of the Colorado would be a
| good candidate as well, though I personally believe the
| bigger solution is reintroducing beavers into the upper
| water shed, to increase total average flow.
| sand500 wrote:
| How do beavers increase total water flow? I can see them
| causing more water to be held upstream.
| m4r1k wrote:
| Meanwhile, in third-world, overly bureaucratic Italy, one has to
| wait several months to get all the paperwork in order to take
| advantage of a solar installation. Self-deployed solutions are
| also limited to 800 watts, which is peanuts in today's world.
| pkirk wrote:
| That is the case only if you want to give your surplus back to
| the grid. If you avoid that, you are only limited to a maximum
| power of 20kW of solar panels installed.
| ferguess_k wrote:
| 20kW seems to be ample for home usage. Half should be good
| enough.
| tills13 wrote:
| I recently got a 10kWh system installed and it should cover
| about half my usage. I live in meh-irradiance Canada. Full
| coverage of my bill in summer, pathetic generation in the
| summer. So yeah, sunnier places like Italy 10kWh would be
| perfect -- especially for places with heat pumps and warm
| winters.
| wuming2 wrote:
| You have clearly never spent anything but holiday time in a
| underdeveloped county. If ever. You won't draw similarities
| otherwise. Completely different standing points.
| elzbardico wrote:
| Italy is third world country now?
| pyrale wrote:
| This article looks like it completely embraces the pov of solar
| providers, and describes maintenance of the grid as serving the
| interests of the fossil electricity industry.
|
| ...And not far from the end:
|
| > The next milestone, Massol-Deya says, will be successfully
| connecting microgrids that are not in close geographic proximity.
|
| Yeah... great journalism here IEEE.
| KaiserPro wrote:
| So the bit thats not clear here is are they defining rules for
| what happens when there are interconnection failures?
|
| or is it that to connect to the grid you need to have your own
| storage as well as PV? it sounded like they joined three
| "islands" together.
| metalman wrote:
| technological advances for off/tied grid solar are now maturing
| into high quality solutions for all scenarios, costs are in free
| fall. I was an ultra early adopter of solar pv in 1991 in
| Takilma, Oregon living in a school bus,and continue to live off
| grid in Nova Scotia. As to Peurto Rico, my first question was
| answered by a quick look at a topograpgical map, and Peurto Rico
| looks a lot like Nova Scotia....lots and lots of hills and little
| valleys and rivers, which means that for them topography has a
| big part to play, also looking at pictures of the instalations
| there, basic roofing is clearly a price consideration before
| other things, so developing solar that assembles into a physical
| roofing product, that entirely replaces other roofing, would be
| important for anyone who is carefullt crunching numbers on a new
| build in a choice location, add in charging for cars and scooters
| which can double as extra house power when needed and the
| inevitability of the comming switch becomes obvious.
| amai wrote:
| They should buy a nuclear power plant instead. Only nuclear power
| plants can prevent blackouts.
| OtherShrezzing wrote:
| A nuclear plant wouldn't prevent the specific types of
| blackouts that Puerto Rico suffers from, as described in the
| article. Hurricanes and aged infrastructure means the power
| coming from centralised producers fails to arrive at
| distributed consumers. The advantage solar has in this regard
| is that the energy is produced within 1/2km of its consumption.
| blitzar wrote:
| France enters the chat ...
| Attrecomet wrote:
| I have to wonder how you envision a small community building
| nucular when the state has already failed them. That's the real
| neat thing, that cooperations smaller than the entire territory
| of Puerto Rico can take action and help themselves, and even
| take away pressure from the rest of the grid doing it!
|
| > Only nuclear power plants can prevent blackouts. That
| sentence is so maximal that it is trivially maximally wrong.
| Clearly, other tech can do that too. Like, blindingly
| obviously.
| greenie_beans wrote:
| yes it is so easy to build nuclear
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nukegate_scandal
| gregors wrote:
| Timely post as a TN power plant is offline
|
| https://www.local3news.com/local-news/tva-takes-sequoyah-nuc...
| EcommerceFlow wrote:
| My hope for America is once Optimus robots are up and running,
| have 1-2 legions worth work 24/7 setting up a huge farm in
| Arizona, then creating an energy transition line to the east
| coast.
|
| It sounds crazy, but given the rate of advancements in robots and
| the fact that solar panels are already mass manufactured, why
| isn't this feasible in 2 years?
| worldsayshi wrote:
| Yeah if Musk now clears his head, gives up politics, enters his
| villain redemption arc and focuses on something he's actually
| good at - making technology wonders happen through the force of
| will, workforce manipulation, trial and error and duct tape -
| it might happen.
| floatrock wrote:
| Are _you_ a tesla bot?
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| Are solar panels still being produced in the U.S.? I thought we
| strangled that golden goose.
| EcommerceFlow wrote:
| Remove the Chinese Tariffs on them, then just import massive
| amounts.
| blitzar wrote:
| That would be playing right into the Chinese evil plan to
| spend trillions giving away solar panels to America so
| Americans go woke (and have cheap electricity) /s
| bloomingeek wrote:
| Your vaporizing is forth coming.
| jeffbee wrote:
| Setting up huge installations in the desert is already nearly
| labor-free. Anyway this article is about small installations.
| WillAdams wrote:
| Does anyone have a good link/step-by-step for doing some sort of
| home solar system where:
|
| - it's sufficiently small-scale that no building permit is
| required
|
| - it looks nice enough that neighbors won't complain
|
| - the wiring is essentially plug-and-play
|
| The best approach I've been able to come up with is to purchase a
| medium size battery pack such as is used for glamping (glamour
| camping), plug it into the wall and connect my refrigerator and a
| couple of other high-draw appliances to it (basement dehumidifier
| comes to mind), build a small roof for the back deck, using
| poured footings with short posts and then attaching the vertical
| pillars for the roof to that (which should side-step the need for
| a building permit since it's not a permanent structure), then
| placing the solar panels on that roof and running a wire to the
| battery placed in the kitchen.
| originalvichy wrote:
| Companies like Ecoflow sell mobile battery packs which you can
| connect foldable/small panels to by just plugging them in. No
| roof installation required. Those panels can be bought as a
| bundle with the packs. Those packs can then be connected to
| extension cords. It's a starting point for short term outages.
| WillAdams wrote:
| That is the company whose products I've been considering ---
| my idea was to attach the solar panels to the roof so as to
| not need to fold/unfold, and to be able to take advantage of
| them all day without any further clutter on the deck (gaining
| a roofed area on the deck is a nice bonus).
| sanex wrote:
| I'm interested in doing something like this as well. Build a
| pergola with a solar roof instead of just a metal one from
| Costco. I've seen a few videos online doing a similar sized
| system with like a Jackert or Anker Solix. Realistically with
| 2-3 harbor freight panels they're only enough to power like
| your home office. A fridge will burn through the battery pretty
| fast. I do believe you can have them do input and output
| straight into your wall outlet and you don't have to plug right
| the appliances into the battery/inverter.
| megaman821 wrote:
| I agree, a solar pergula would be good and hardly noticeable.
|
| A fidge is only going to use 1.5-2kWh per day. A medium sized
| pergola would give you more power than that. Since you aren't
| opening and closing the fridge in the middle of the night, a
| 1 kWh battery would keep it running all day on normal days.
| brk wrote:
| There is a ton of DIY solar info online, but it is very much
| regionally dependent. Both for permits and system design.
|
| Here in Florida, I can get high output from an average panel,
| but there are a lot of permit issues (and rightly so, a poorly
| installed panel can become a severe hazard in a hurricane).
|
| Where I lived in Michigan, there weren't many permitting or
| zoning issues, but I'd need 3-4x the number of panels to get
| usable output in the winter time.
|
| Most truly small scale solar systems don't provide enough
| output/value to be worth the effort, unless you're living a
| very low-power lifestyle.
| tencentshill wrote:
| True energy independence in even a small capacity has a value
| beyond just money.
| cjaackie wrote:
| True [x] independence in even a small capacity has a value
| beyond just money.
|
| ..water.. ..food.. ..housing.. ..information..
|
| I get what you are trying to conveying, I just wanted to
| highlight the semantic generality of the statement if it
| stands alone.
| zdragnar wrote:
| If you have a house in the countryside, then water and
| food are relatively easy. You've got your own well and
| septic system for water, and plenty of room to stock up
| on food, plus you can supplement your diet by growing
| your own vegetables and raising chickens, fishing or
| hunting as seasonally appropriate per your local
| regulations.
|
| The well and septic system require no real effort on your
| part once installed, though you may find harvesting your
| own food to be too time consuming or labor intensive to
| really be actually independent.
| brk wrote:
| Yes, but on a limited budget solar may not always be the
| best option to some kind of energy independence. It really
| depends on what you are trying to solve for. Solar alone
| won't carry loads at night, the panels are generally not
| portable, they won't produce much output in the middle of a
| storm, etc.
|
| As an example, during one of the hurricanes that came
| through FL last year we lost power shortly after the storm
| hit. I had a smallish leak with water coming in, it was
| entirely manageable with a wetvac, running off my
| generator. But solar panels would have been producing zero
| output at the same time. Even a large battery bank would
| have been sufficient.
|
| IME, Solar is something where there is often a case where
| the minimum investment to get a truly worthwhile system is
| higher than other things like generators, or recently even
| battery banks. People often overlook all the situations
| where solar won't produce any output. I look at solar as
| more of a second-tier energy independence solution than a
| first-tier. And it worth nothing this is speaking primarily
| for applications in North America that have generally
| stable power. If you're in a remote area with no reliable
| power infrastructure then the parameters are way different.
| jonathanlydall wrote:
| I got a solar system installed at end of 2022 due to
| working from home and the large amount of load shedding
| South Africa was having at the time. Was absolutely
| justifiable for me:
|
| https://imgur.com/a/hXeVAGr
|
| (Worth noting that during load shedding only a subset of
| people are turned off depending on the stage of load
| shedding, but on average I experienced about 25% of those
| totals)
| lostlogin wrote:
| The money aspect is interesting.
|
| Where I am the companies charge a 'line charge'. It's about
| 20-25% of the monthly bill.
|
| I generate somewhere between 80-110% of the power I need,
| but in winter I only get half what I need from solar.
|
| A larger system would cover this and negate the need for
| the line charge, suddenly saving a lot.
| ellisv wrote:
| Also in Michigan.
|
| I primarily want to generate enough solar to run my AC in the
| summer because that's the dominant electricity consuming
| appliance in our house (except for the EV).
|
| At least with DTE you receive credits for your production,
| which you can use within 12 months. So generating an excess
| in the summer to offset the winter is a viable strategy.
| whall6 wrote:
| Michigan unfortunately represents a mismatch of when you need
| power vs when power is generated. Arizona, Texas, New Mexico
| are sweet spots. High power demand in the summer (A/C),
| relatively high proportion of sunny days.
| Scoundreller wrote:
| Michigan is just like the south: highest electricity
| consumption is during summer.
|
| This may change with increased use of heat pumps for
| heating, but it's still a while out before seasonal
| electricity consumption patterns invert.
|
| +/- on what effect electric cars will have: people drive
| more in summer but efficiency goes down in winter.
|
| Arizona, Florida, etc are not really in a sweet spot we all
| think it is because PV efficiency/output goes marginally
| down when it's really hot (ie: when A/C demand peaks).
| Unless you install the panels at high altitude.
| eldaisfish wrote:
| we are likely there already.
|
| Ontario, just to the north of Michigan, already has a
| winter peak very close to the summer peak. The provinces
| subsidises heat pumps. Ontario will be a winter peaking
| region in a couple of years.
| whall6 wrote:
| Interesting that PV efficiency is impacted by peak heat.
| Why are there so many solar farms in the desert near Las
| Vegas and in West Texas then? Serious question, would
| love to know the answer. Are these inefficiencies just
| now coming to light?
| philipkglass wrote:
| The effect has long been known, but it's pretty modest.
| Here's the data sheet for a typical modern solar panel:
|
| https://static.trinasolar.com/sites/default/files/Datashe
| et_...
|
| It loses about 0.29% of (relative) power output for every
| degree Celsius of temperature increase. If the module is
| operating at its maximum rated temperature of 85 degrees
| C, it's still about 83% as efficient as it would be under
| standard test conditions (25 degrees C).
|
| Solar farms in sunny, hot regions generate more energy
| per year than identical installations in cooler, less
| sunny regions. The benefit of extra light dominates over
| the efficiency loss from higher temperatures. A location
| with as much sunlight as Las Vegas but the temperatures
| of Anchorage would be ideal, but there are few if any
| locations with those characteristics. That's why Las
| Vegas is still a good location for solar farms despite
| the heat.
| wccrawford wrote:
| That actually sounds like a pretty good plan.
|
| I did something similar with my lawn mower. I bought a battery
| and a single solar panel from Harbor Freight, along with the
| controller and wires need to hook it all together. I'd set the
| panel in the yard when I needed to charge the mower's
| batteries.
|
| The whole thing, including the mower, cost less than half a
| year's fees from a yard crew, and I ended up saving money
| overall.
|
| After the experiment was done (and I realized the mower was too
| low for my grass and was harming it) I sold the mower and gave
| the rest to my father-in-law for his shed.
|
| We then got professionally installed solar panels for our house
| and a full-house battery. (It isn't strong enough for the air
| conditioner, but oh well.)
|
| If I had it to do over again on the small scale, I'd buy an
| Ecoflow battery (which I have actually bought) and a solar
| panel made for it, and your fridge idea is a good one. It'd
| probably also power a fan, a light, and some light
| entertainment, I think.
|
| Edit: Might go with "Anker" or "Jackery" instead of Ecoflow
| now, as it might be cheaper for the same thing.
| kccqzy wrote:
| In Europe it's somewhat common to have a small solar panel just
| on your balcony (i.e. not permanent attached to the building)
| and simply plugs into a nearby wall receptacle.
| https://www.theverge.com/24150901/ecoflow-powerstream-review...
|
| For those wondering, the article did discuss the safety matter
| of using a power outlet as an inlet. And the article also
| points out that while this is allowed in several countries in
| Europe it's not allowed in the U.S., but I suppose you could
| always plug appliances directly into the battery instead.
| rtkwe wrote:
| Wild. I wonder how they deal with the back feeding issue. Is
| there something about the home wiring in those countries that
| prevents it? (or do they just not care and line workers know
| to check if a line is truly dead?)
| kccqzy wrote:
| The device detects that and prevents back feeding. So in
| case of a power outage it completely shuts itself down.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| So when the power goes out it no longer powers your
| fridge or whatever else you need powered. But it's easy
| enough to unplug the fridge from the wall and directly
| into the battery.
| thmsths wrote:
| I feel the real danger of back feeding is not that american
| line workers can't be bothered to check if the line is
| truly dead before starting to work. It's that the line
| could be reenergized at any time.
| Symbiote wrote:
| Lineworkers will ground/earth the line with a very good
| connection (e.g. metal rod into the ground) before
| working on it, as far as I know.
|
| (At least, this is what electricians working with 33kV in
| industry in Europe do, e.g. if doing maintenance on a
| cable to a datacentre.)
| cameldrv wrote:
| The microinverter just turns itself off if it doesn't
| detect line voltage in the outlet. In the U.S. evidently
| it's required to also have some sort of backflow preventer
| in the panel as well.
| rtkwe wrote:
| Fair, I always forget that most inverters require an
| existing line voltage to follow instead of being able to
| generate their own ex nihilo. I was also picturing one of
| the battery banks that do have the ability to create
| their own signal too.
| _zoltan_ wrote:
| if there is no power, the inverter shuts down and doesn't
| feed power in.
| eldaisfish wrote:
| it is actually simpler. The inverter stops power flow if it
| does not detect a grid voltage.
|
| The actual power coming from a balcony setup is tiny, a
| thousand watts ballpark. The typical house will consume the
| vast majority of that capacity.
|
| Even if some flows back to the grid, it will likely be
| consumed by losses in the transformer and wires.
| blackjack_ wrote:
| We are starting to have this in the US, in fact I have a
| company coming by to do an install of a system like this on
| Monday. Technically you should be able to mostly diy it, but
| it uses a smart panel that gets attached to the main to
| prevent backflow, which needs an electrician, and for now
| they are running its own circuit.
| Rebelgecko wrote:
| Depending on where you live, that you can buy solar
| panels+battery kits that plug into the wall and feed the
| circuit that way, no need to run extension cords to plug in
| individual appliances. However I don't think those types of
| setups are legal in the US, they don't trust the backfeed
| protection
| vhodges wrote:
| Some resources: * https://www.mobile-
| solarpower.com/ * https://diysolarforum.com/
|
| Note: You'll probably need a permit for the electrical work if
| it's more permanent and/or grid tied.
|
| But watch the video at https://www.mobile-
| solarpower.com/mobile-48v-system.html for something similar to
| a Goal Zero or Jackery
| rtkwe wrote:
| > no building permit is required
|
| This will be the main issue. No matter what you're going to be
| doing work inside the main service panel on your house adding
| new feeds and you'll need to install a transfer switch to
| disconnect your house in case of a power outage. Most
| electrical work inside a panel like adding circuits will
| require a permit in the US. Seems like your plan doesn't
| involve any of that though so you should be ok permit wise
| except maybe needing one for the pad and structure.
| tclancy wrote:
| It would also be nice to think of your neighbors in terms of
| not starting a fire and someone capable of doing permitted
| work will be handy when you go to sell the place and bright
| red flags show up during inspection.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| In my jurisdiction, you don't need a permit if you're doing it
| yourself, and it's on your side of the panel.
|
| So the plan I came up with is essentially the plan you have,
| but I connect my refrigerator to the battery by the panel
| rather than running an extension cord from my kitchen to the
| battery.
|
| I disconnected the fridge and 2 other circuits from the panel,
| and terminated them with a nema 5-15p inlet receptacle like
| this: http://www.levitonproducts.com/catalog/model_5278-CWP.htm
|
| I then put 4 solar panels on a 45 degree angle on the ground
| leaning against a south facing wall, anchored to the wall and
| ground.
|
| The "solar generator" I used is this one:
| https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/apex-300#/
|
| It's similar to the glamping batteries you refer to, but is
| more targeted to home backup / off-grid / RV use than glamping.
| bparsons wrote:
| The glamping approach is probably your best bet if you want to
| avoid paperwork. The equipment has gotten very good and quite
| cheap in the last few years.
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| Before buying a "glamping battery", you'll want to ensure that
| it can be run unattended in your desired configuration.
|
| I previously had a Bluetti EB70S and while it almost did what I
| wanted, it could only charge from AC or Solar, but not both and
| didn't have a way to set desired levels.
|
| Now I have a Bluetti Apex 300, and I can set it to charge to X%
| off AC during overnight off-peak rates, and never drop below
| Y%.
| aeyes wrote:
| Hybrid Inverter. Main power and solar power go in, house power
| goes out.
|
| No feeding of solar power to the grid so no permits.
|
| You can add a battery if you want to reduce your reliance on
| the grid. Or use it with a battery but without solar panels as
| a whole house UPS.
| potato3732842 wrote:
| >No feeding of solar power to the grid so no permits.
|
| If it becomes popular the slimy solar farm developers and the
| utility will join hands to hire a lobbyist who will ensure
| the rules get changed to close the loophole.
| turtlebits wrote:
| Depends on your jurisdiction, but roof mounted solar installs
| generally don't need building permits. Electrical permits on
| the other hand are almost always required.
|
| If you actually want to offset cost, don't buy a portable
| battery pack. Get an AIO solar inverter and a server rack
| battery. They're generally plug and play - wire the panels to
| it, connect the battery.
|
| If you want to run your home loads, the cheapest/simplest way
| (without going grid-tie) is to have an electrician add a
| critical loads panel supplied by your inverter output, then
| plug your inverter in to the grid for backup (in case no solar
| or batteries are low).
| tiahura wrote:
| _cheapest /simplest way (without going grid-tie) is to have
| an electrician add a critical loads panel supplied_
|
| Cheaper way is have electrician wire a manual transfer switch
| at the existing panel. When you loose power, turn off non-
| essential breakers and then flip transfer switch.
| acomjean wrote:
| Does that work?
|
| Our solar inverter uses the 60hz AC from and grid to do the
| DC->AC conversion. The inverter stops functioning if the
| power is out. I thought they all did that for safety.
|
| Those home batteries mush have some solution.
| lesuorac wrote:
| They don't all need the grid -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44023226
|
| https://eg4electronics.com/categories/inverters/eg4-18kpv
| -12...
| turtlebits wrote:
| You lose all benefits of solar/battery except for during a
| power outage and you have to flip all your breakers? (you
| also won't immediately know when the power is back).
|
| Might as well save money and not install anything- use an
| extension cord for those rare times.
| rsync wrote:
| "If you want to run your home loads, the cheapest/simplest
| way (without going grid-tie) is to have an electrician add a
| critical loads panel supplied by your inverter output ..."
|
| No, that's actually _not_ the simplest.
|
| Far simpler is to install a solar breaker in your _main
| panel_ and a physical lockout[1] between utility power and
| the new solar breaker.
|
| There is no ATX, there are no smarts, the power goes out and
| you flip two breakers. There is nothing simpler than this.
|
| The beauty of this is, you can keep scaling up your solar
| generation, adding panels as the years go by, and you are
| never locked into these ridiculous "preferred breakers" sub-
| panels.
|
| Will you have to be smart about your total power use while
| you are on solar ? Yes, you will - just don't run the dryer
| and the microwave at the same time.
|
| [1] https://www.amazon.com/QYZZRS-Generator-Interlock-
| Compatible...
| turtlebits wrote:
| Changing your usage pattern isn't simpler.
|
| When I mean simplest, I meant a solution that doesn't rely
| on doing anything. If/when Solar isn't enough or your
| batteries deplete, it just falls back to grid. Power
| outage? Your critical items automatically are backed by
| solar/battery.
|
| Having to think about your what high draw appliances are
| running and using additional power adds mental load (ie
| complexity) and is an immediate no for most people.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| Changing your usage pattern is ultimately at the heart of
| any serious proposal for solving energy scarcity. We
| _have_ enough energy to power our civilisation without
| catastrophe: we 're just using it in an extremely
| inefficient manner.
| dylan604 wrote:
| How is "using poured footings with short posts" _not_ a
| permanent structure? Are you pouring the footings into buckets
| and not into the ground?
| foobarian wrote:
| Guessing that code doesn't mind the footings if they don't
| stick out, and then whatever is on top is removable.
| caseysoftware wrote:
| I have a massive array+battery (20kWh generation, 19kWh
| storage) and while it's great, some things to pay consider:
|
| - if you need roof repair/replacement, do it _before_ you get
| solar. Alternatively, make your array free standing
|
| - prioritize the circuits you want to cover. Not every one is
| critical but health & safety (water, fridge, cooking
| capabilities) are key
|
| - MOST jurisdictions won't require permitting for the grid
| (especially if it's not connected to your house) but MOST will
| require an inspection if you want to connect to the grid
|
| - if you connect to the grid, make sure you understand how your
| electricity provider addresses net metering. I wrote about it
| here: https://geekamongthetrees.com/what-is-solar-net-metering-
| or-...
| greenie_beans wrote:
| my prediction, for the US: electricity demand from AI will exceed
| supply at least in the short and medium term, driving up electric
| prices for consumers
| bryanlarsen wrote:
| Increased demand for air conditioning in the US is increasing
| demand at about the same rate as AI is. We're expanding the
| grid fast enough to handle one, but not both.
| greenie_beans wrote:
| interesting, i haven't heard that. where can i go to learn
| about that? historians cite AC as one of the things that
| changed the american south in the 20th century, making it
| more habitable.
| alexnewman wrote:
| i live in puerto rico. I talk with my luma friends all the time,
| we need baseload. We need more gas. We've made huge investments
| in solar that have been destroyed by hurricanes and are a huge
| waste issue.
| asciii wrote:
| i got really tired of Luma and after the new year blackout i
| jumped ship to windmar. i'm fairly rural so it's actually
| decent and in a good spot where other neighbors have fared well
| during hurricanes.
| eagerpace wrote:
| I would love to have just enough solar to flatten my peak usage
| on the hottest days of the summer. They naturally coincide with
| tons of sun. I don't need a huge system to be all solar all the
| time or even care about credits from the power company. I just
| don't want a $300 bill in the summer and a $50 bill in the
| winter. Has anyone designed a good solution for this?
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| I have installed 200kw+ worth of rooftop (Florida) and ground
| mount (NorCal) resi systems (primarily Enphase, but I'm
| familiar with the operating requirements of other inverters),
| and am currently riding shotgun for a ~200MW solar PV project
| in the Midwest. If you share more details (general location,
| utility, and energy cost schedule [static, seasonal]), I am
| happy to provide some guidance.
| senjin wrote:
| With solar panels being so much cheaper than 10-15 years ago,
| it seems like installation costs are the biggest hurdle to
| wider adoption. Do you see anything reducing those costs in
| the future?
|
| Maybe we need a push to make standing seam metal roofs more
| mainstream and people can install their own without having to
| drill into their roof
| 98codes wrote:
| I'd love to have some form of solar work out cost-wise for me
| here in Seattle -- there just aren't enough sunny days
| throughout the year to make solar financially make sense, even
| over a 20-year period. At least from what the solar calculators
| I've found on the web would have me believe.
| testing22321 wrote:
| That is wrong. I'm over 2000km north of you in a tight valley
| that snows a lot. The 7.8kw system on my roof will be paid
| back in about 7 years.
| smileysteve wrote:
| Solar or battery (to load shift for nights and weekend pricing)
|
| HVAC being so much of a load is tricky for smaller battery
| systems.
|
| My best small step is dehumidifying with battery
| QuercusMax wrote:
| In Oregon we have the Community Solar program, which I've heard
| good things about - rather than building your own rooftop
| solar, you invest in a solar farm subscription as part of your
| electric bill, and receive credits for power produced. I
| haven't signed up for it yet personally but I've heard good
| reports from some other folks.
|
| https://www.oregoncsp.org/
| testing22321 wrote:
| We put 7.8kw on our roof on a snowy mountain town in Canada in
| a tight valley. In 12 months it generated $950 worth of power
| at $0.13/kwh, and we now have no power bill for our house and
| all heating and cooling with a heat pump.
|
| We tore out the old natural gas furnace and had the line
| disconnected, saving us about $2k/year for the heating.
|
| Game changer.
| nfriedly wrote:
| I know this isn't what you're asking about, but my electric
| company has a budget billing program where they average out
| your usage and charge you the same amount each month.
|
| I use it mainly so that I can set it up and with my bank's bill
| pay system and then forget about it for a year. But it's also
| nice for avoiding those huge bills in the summer.
|
| It might be worth looking into.
| eagerpace wrote:
| I appreciate that! It's not the cost fluctuation that is a
| problem, just the fact that usage and price goes up in the
| summer and the cost scales so quickly. Battery storage is a
| hack that may work financially for now but I'm more
| interested in shedding the additional consumption at peak
| even if it's just the few hottest hours of each day.
| jaggederest wrote:
| Get a direct solar AC minisplit, EG4 makes one that I haven't
| tried but it's around $1500 not including panels.
|
| It won't ever make excess electricity and you won't be able to
| run it after dark, but it'll keep you nice and chilly, I bet.
| whall6 wrote:
| I don't have data but I have a hunch most blackouts in PR are
| weather related. In that case (stormy skies), solar probably
| won't help much.
| cjbgkagh wrote:
| Don't most storms happen at night? So really it's the battery
| doing the work either way.
| whall6 wrote:
| The amount of battery capacity required to sustain power
| demand for this to be scaled to a meaningful population is
| high (PR average daily power demand is ~50 GWh per day). Most
| power outages in PR take 48 to 72 hours to fix. You would
| need batteries that can store 150 GWh of power. That's a LOT
| of money to install.
|
| Even this assumes that you wouldn't want any breathing room
| on battery capacity (i.e., every power outage will be fixed
| in under 72 hours).
| tgtweak wrote:
| I keep seeing these "grid synchronizing" inverters that don't
| require transfer switches and can generate to offset the energy
| pulled from the grid - in the event of a full grid outage, you
| can always manually hit the disconnect and run the home -
| provided the load doesn't surpass the generation capacity (or
| storage capacity if running with batteries).
|
| It seems like this hasn't really made it's way into North
| America, which is unfortunate as it would lower the barrier of
| entry for home solar considerably vs traditional grid-tie/net
| metering which requires a ton of permits, electricians, meter
| changes, disconnects (or transfer switches) and generally lots of
| delays and cost.
|
| I would be very curious how the "migrogrids" interconnect in PR -
| it seems there is some kind of synchronization and neighborhood-
| level disconnects to isolate from the shared grid.
| rtkwe wrote:
| Grid synchronizing is not the same as being able to operate in
| island mode. The only reason you can run those inverters
| without an automatic transfer switch is because they don't
| function when there's no grid to follow so they shut off when
| power goes out meaning they don't backfeed the grid outside the
| home.
|
| A lot of inverters are just grid following and you need some
| other source creating the 60-hz signal for the solar inverters
| to follow. Generally this is either a battery or generator
| because solar has a really hard fall off in the power provided
| the instant you try to draw too much so instantaneous spike
| loads like motors starting (compressors/fans/etc) will often
| collapse off grid solar only installs.
| bob1029 wrote:
| > motors starting
|
| This is a big problem when working with single stage HVAC
| condensers. These motors can have a LRA rating of well over
| 100 amps.
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