[HN Gopher] Third places and neighborhood entrepreneurship (2024)
___________________________________________________________________
Third places and neighborhood entrepreneurship (2024)
Author : WasimBhai
Score : 99 points
Date : 2025-06-25 12:10 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nber.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nber.org)
| hiAndrewQuinn wrote:
| 1. This is actually a really cool idea for a website. Is this
| powered by NotebookLM or some such?
|
| 2. Coffee shops are probably my favorite Third Place in general.
| Here in northern Europe, I've heard of some attempts at Costco-
| like coffee shops where you pay a yearly membership fee,
| somewhere between $50-100, for the ability to purchase coffee
| from there, but the coffee itself is quite cheap. You can usually
| bring some number of friends or colleagues as well. I'd really
| like to see this model take off, if they can solve some of the
| adversarial concerns with it (e.g. it probably shouldn't become a
| replacement for a full time office, but regular 2-3 hour work
| sessions seem ideal).
| WasimBhai wrote:
| Thank you. Previously it was NotebookLM but now I am doing the
| entire thing, music choice, dialogues editing.
| hiAndrewQuinn wrote:
| Oh, that's interesting. Did you find NotebookLM's dialogue
| wasn't getting you the tone you were after?
| WasimBhai wrote:
| Yes. And there is no music to make you feel the place.
| postexitus wrote:
| What do you use to sound the back and forth dialogue?
| moritonal wrote:
| Politely, on point 1 I disagree entirely. At a glance I thought
| it was a parking domain and closed it because I figured their
| site had crashed. Likely because the "Listen Now" looks exactly
| like a Google Advert and the jump in gradient for the other
| element.
| WasimBhai wrote:
| I definitely agree but as a poor graduate student, this was
| the cheapest domain I could find.
| 0xWTF wrote:
| Just clarifying for thread (pretty sure OP understands)
| it's not the domain name that's sketchy, it's the page
| style.
| moritonal wrote:
| Hey, yeah, the site name is great, I'll never judge that.
| And even as design goes it's not "bad", it's just not as
| great as the parent comment originally implied.
|
| I originally mistook the site as an ad-website because of
| how it's designed, which lead to me leaving. The neat part,
| is that's pretty easy for you to fix, so best of luck.
| thucydides wrote:
| Yes, I had the same experience. OP should refresh the design
| WasimBhai wrote:
| Thank you. I deeply value the feedback.
| hiAndrewQuinn wrote:
| That sounds more like a design issue than an issue with the
| fundamental idea behind the website. 3 to 4 minute audio
| clips breezing over interesting new papers still seems near.
| Noumenon72 wrote:
| The link points to the original paper now
| (https://www.nber.org/papers/w32604) so this discussion isn't
| applicable going forward.
| dmbche wrote:
| You can look for 'anti-cafes", where crackers and coffee is
| free but you pay for the time you're there, it was somewhat
| popular a few years back
| frollogaston wrote:
| I love coffee shops but don't like coffee very much, and they
| usually don't prioritize tea. Wish tea were more popular.
| femiagbabiaka wrote:
| Cafe hangout supremacy. The Yemeni coffee shops show the ideal
| model imo. Open late, lots of seating.
| prmph wrote:
| Or, the kind of people who are likely to create startups are
| drawn to cities that are big on coffee shop culture.
|
| As usual the direction of causation is a bit difficult to tease
| out
| nemomarx wrote:
| I think you have to assume the ability to meet other people
| like that helps in founding start ups though?
| potato3732842 wrote:
| What throws a big wrench into determining causation is that
| Starbucks tries to avoid opening where there isn't already a
| sufficient customer base.
|
| Even if you do manage to tease out causation tech and other
| "sophisticated" industry startups are also just the tip of the
| entrepreneurship iceberg.
|
| The bulk of the area under the curve of a city's wealth is the
| long tail of blue collar people who wouldn't voluntarily
| associate with the kind of people who go to Starbucks starting
| and making moves to grow businesses that HN snobs don't even
| notice.
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| Blue collar people drink starbucks, HN isn't a monolith of
| elite snobs. Please don't use unfounded or un-provable
| negative stereotypes to try to make a point.
|
| If you read the article, you see that the effect was
| pronounced in lower income areas where a natural experiment
| was effectively run with Magic Johnson's intervention. Which
| kind of goes directly against what you are saying.
| PaulHoule wrote:
| My snobbish take that always gets downvoted was that you
| couldn't get a good cup of coffee in NYC during the 1990s.
| [1] There seemed to be two or three Starbucks on most
| blocks, probably because they thought they could fool stock
| market analysts into thinking it was that way coast to
| coast (like Duane Reade?) Independent espresso bars, which
| you could find in any mid-sized city in a flyover state by
| then, were driven out and you were left with bodegas and
| Jewish delis that served terrible gas station coffee at
| best.
|
| Not long after, this Ithaca company
|
| https://gimmecoffee.com/
|
| opened up a shop in Brooklyn and won an award for best
| coffee in the city, half because they have great coffee,
| half because they had no competition. It is better now, but
| the standard for gas station coffee is vastly higher thanks
| to things like
|
| https://concordiacoffee.com/products-tag/convenience-
| stores/
|
| [1] An astonishing hotbed of conformity. Sitting out in
| front of the headquarters of Fox News I was told that my
| wife and I were the freakiest looking people they'd seen in
| NYC and we only had matching costumes of t-shirts, jeans,
| ALICE packs and boonie caps with plastic flowers.
| j_w wrote:
| The brief summary on the actual paper
| (https://www.nber.org/papers/w32604):
|
| "...tracts that received a Starbucks saw an increase in the
| number of startups of 9.1% to 18% (or 2.9 to 5.7 firms) per
| year, over the subsequent 7 years. A partnership between
| Starbucks and Magic Johnson focused on underprivileged
| neighborhoods produced larger effects."
|
| Seems like third places have strong effects here.
| thinkingtoilet wrote:
| I wonder if it's more free wifi and an air conditioned/heated
| room than anything else.
| wanderingbit wrote:
| This isn't enough information about the study to tease out
| cause and effect. There may be a third confounding variable
| that positively impacts both entrepreneurship growth and
| Starbucks growth.
|
| For instance, what if Starbucks only decides to move into
| neighborhoods that have reached a certain level of economic
| growth (ie number of households, number of business, etc...)?
| Neighborhood economic growth would likely attract
| entrepreneurs as well, and we wouldn't be able to conclude
| that Starbucks had anything to do with entrepreneurship
| growth.
|
| Said a different way, would adding Starbucks in the middle of
| the Atacama desert grow Peruvian entrepreneurs? I mean come
| on it'd be the only third space around!
|
| I can't read the full paper because I don't have a
| subscription, but the fact that they don't call this out in
| the abstract makes me doubt it's a meaningful conclusion.
| bluehatbrit wrote:
| On the website / app this is using - it looks like a nice
| approach to consuming these papers, but I really wish they'd also
| provide the link to the original source paper. In an age where
| you can't trust anything anymore, being able to jump to the
| source material is really important.
|
| Edit: This comment was made when the post pointed to an audio
| form of the main article. I'll leave it here none the less as
| feedback to the audio sites maker.
| WasimBhai wrote:
| Thank you. I will definitely add that over the weekend.
| lazystar wrote:
| No, this needs to be added before you post to sites like
| hacker news. how can anyone trust that this audio isn't a
| 100% fabrication from an AI? Flagging this post, hoping the
| mods remove this.
|
| edit: thank you, mods, for changing the link.
| WasimBhai wrote:
| This is not fabrication. Please unflag.
| lazystar wrote:
| Provide a link to the source, please.
|
| Can't believe this has to be asked on a front page
| article.
|
| edit: thank you, mods, for changing the link.
| sneak wrote:
| I'm pretty sure I would move to a city anywhere in the world
| based primarily on the availability of high quality 24 hour third
| places.
| the_real_cher wrote:
| Hell yeah same.
|
| Where though?
|
| West coast and Gulf Coast where Ive lived have very few.
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| Look near universities and in the weird/artsy neighborhoods.
| Axsuul wrote:
| Ktown in LA has a few
| the_real_cher wrote:
| I've been to one out there but it was crowded as hell all
| hours of the night because theres so few late night coffee
| shops in LA.
| ghaff wrote:
| I question how many people would want to hang in 24-hour third
| spaces beyond spaces that are open to some reasonably late
| evening hour.
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| Not many. But the existence of them in a place points towards
| a certain culture.
|
| You see them not necessarily in places like wall street, but
| more in places with strong intellectual culture like
| universities and artsy neighborhoods.
|
| I can use the existence of a country club as a useful signal
| about a place without being a member, or having any interest
| in it.
| walterbell wrote:
| _> points towards a certain culture_
|
| Also points towards local labor law and market.
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| What do you mean? I'm not sure the implication is obvious
| walterbell wrote:
| Labor law may constrain working hours.
|
| In some countries, low cost of human labor enables
| staffing of low-volume businesses, including opening
| hours with low traffic.
| sneak wrote:
| Go to some clubs in Berlin sometime :)
| y-curious wrote:
| With an American-centric view, how do you deal with homeless
| people using them as shelter? Like, Korea/Japan have those
| cheap gaming booths, but that would never work in America
| because of the aforementioned issue. The want would be an
| exclusive third place that has the people you'd want to meet
| with.
| sneak wrote:
| Third place doesn't mean free. Churches and bars (the
| existing American third places) seem to have mechanisms for
| addressing this presently.
| ericmay wrote:
| > With an American-centric view, how do you deal with
| homeless people using them as shelter?
|
| I don't think it's a concern, first of all. Second, store
| owners will kick out non-paying customers as they have since
| time immemorial. You might as well ask how someone deals with
| pan handlers at the intersection on the way to their drive-
| through Starbucks. If the person is just sitting in a corner
| not bothering anyone, maybe someone will buy them a coffee,
| or maybe they'll be annoyed that it's too loud and leave, or
| perhaps they just _look_ homeless but they 're just mistaken
| for your run of the mill startup founder?
|
| There are also lots of homeless people in other parts of the
| world. How do people in Paris or London deal with them? I
| don't understand why this exists an American-centric view
| here for such a general concern. Homelessness isn't unique to
| the United States, yet virtually every country on the planet
| has coffee shops you can walk into.
| yesfitz wrote:
| It is a concern, clearly, the other commentor brought it
| up.
|
| Kicking people out of anywhere, regardless of their housing
| status, is a relatively extreme conflict, compared to the
| normal happenings at a diner, cafe, or bar. Panhandlers
| aren't a good comparison because no one's trying to hang
| out at the intersection.
|
| As to your question about the difference between America
| and Europe: If there even is much of a difference, I
| suspect it is influenced by socialized medicine and the
| significant differences in involuntary commitment[1]. In
| America you can be severely mentally ill, sleeping rough,
| and disruptive to the community, but unless you break a
| pretty serious law, no one can _make_ you get help. And
| that 's if you survive contact with the police.
|
| Maybe in practice, it's not that different over there, but
| it seems like they have more tools and resources to handle
| mental health crises, which would lessen the rest of the
| population's assumption that unhoused = dangerous.
|
| 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Involuntary_commitment_by_
| coun...
| ericmay wrote:
| > It is a concern, clearly, the other commentor brought
| it up.
|
| Bringing up something doesn't mean it's a valid concern,
| or maybe better put it doesn't mean it's a concern worth
| discussing.
|
| > Kicking people out of anywhere, regardless of their
| housing status, is a relatively extreme conflict,
| compared to the normal happenings at a diner, cafe, or
| bar. Panhandlers aren't a good comparison because no
| one's trying to hang out at the intersection.
|
| I don't disagree that the interactions are different, but
| maybe you haven't had a pan handler toss a drink on your
| car or bang on your window or scream at you in your face?
| In terms of concern, they are pretty close.
|
| The problem with this conversation is that the OP is
| framing the conversation as "how do we deal with this
| random and rare hypothetical situation that only applies
| to urban environments" to cast doubt on the creation or
| continued support of people getting together in these
| third places. So just as much as they are worried about
| that, I'm worried about the pan handlers bothering me and
| throwing stuff at my car at the highway intersection. :)
|
| Calling it an American-centric problem doesn't make sense
| either.
|
| > As to your question about the difference between
| America and Europe...
|
| It was a bit of a rhetorical question. There aren't any
| substantial differences in "how we handle the homeless"
| with respect to _coffee shops_ in a city or whatever the
| "concern" is here.
|
| > Maybe in practice, it's not that different over there,
| but it seems like they have more tools and resources to
| handle mental health crises, which would lessen the rest
| of the population's assumption that unhoused = dangerous.
|
| It would be hard to really qualify but in my experience
| it's about the same, though I think homeless people* in
| the United States tend to be more aggressive with their
| pan handling or escalation toward violence. Some are on
| drugs shipped in from _somewhere_ and even though we do
| provide services (perhaps they are inadequate?) to help,
| it doesn 't appear to be enough. Part of the reason
| people believe that homeless == dangerous tends to be
| because of a few negative interactions, which can be
| quite scary and intimidating and make you avoid a place.
|
| Ultimately, "uh oh what if a homeless person comes to the
| Third Place" is not a concern because those rare
| potential interactions don't get to dictate how everyone
| lives their lives and it's not a strong enough of a
| concern to matter in this conversation context.
|
| * Homelessness exists in many forms, many of those hidden
| from us in day-to-day view and I think we should continue
| to provide support to people to help ensure they don't
| become homeless in the first place. But at the same time
| we can recognize the anti-social behavior of some and
| address that. In the context of this conversation there's
| no "worry" about a homeless person walking in to a coffee
| shop - mind your own business, but the worry is one who
| is aggressive or belligerent, or disturbing others who
| have a right to peace regardless of the situation someone
| else finds themselves in.
| barbazoo wrote:
| The US has a wealth inequality and affordability situation
| orders of magnitude worse than other countries, I can
| imagine it being very different across the world.
| y-curious wrote:
| I'm the person you responded to originally. The biggest
| issue is "kick out non-paying customers". Mechanisms exist
| to do so, but: 1. What if someone bought a coffee? You face
| potential litigation for discrimination. 2. Minimum wage
| employees shouldn't have to play the role of enforcers. A
| mentally-ill/drug-addled person can snap and cause a
| dangerous scene. Getting the cops involved is possible, but
| time-consuming and a pain. 3. It's America-centric because
| we don't have a social safety net for people. In the UK,
| for example, the NHS has avenues for people to get treated.
| The homeless you do run into tend to pose a much lower
| risk, anecdotally.
|
| We do have coffee shops, but as others have pointed out,
| many are getting rid of seating. I think a membership route
| is the only way to enforce something more exclusive.
| ericmay wrote:
| > 1. What if someone bought a coffee?
|
| Why would you kick out a paying customer? If they're
| being disruptive though it doesn't matter if they bought
| a coffee. Businesses can deny services and request that
| you leave the premises. There is very little potential
| for litigation for discrimination.
|
| > 2. Minimum wage employees shouldn't have to play the
| role of enforcers. A mentally-ill/drug-addled person can
| snap and cause a dangerous scene. Getting the cops
| involved is possible, but time-consuming and a pain.
|
| That's just life. There's no other answer here. You deal
| with uncomfortable situations and that's all there is to
| it.
|
| > It's America-centric because we don't have a social
| safety net for people. In the UK, for example, the NHS
| has avenues for people to get treated. The homeless you
| do run into tend to pose a much lower risk, anecdotally.
|
| It would be nice if you knew more about the social
| services that we do offer people in the United States
| before claiming something like this. Turn off the news
| and social media and do your own research instead.
|
| Now that isn't to say (and I honestly don't know one way
| or the other) that social services in the United States
| couldn't be better, but that's tangential to the
| conversation in my opinion.
|
| > We do have coffee shops, but as others have pointed
| out, many are getting rid of seating. I think a
| membership route is the only way to enforce something
| more exclusive.
|
| I emphatically say _fuck that_. I will go to a coffee
| shop, buy coffee, sit down and enjoy the coffee,
| preferably with some friends, and if someone wants to
| come in and be belligerent and threatening then we 'll
| call the cops or participate in physically kicking them
| out if the employees can't handle it. I will not live in
| a world where others are going to disrupt normal everyday
| experiences and ruin everyone else's lives just because
| they're assholes or drugged out. Nope. Not me and not the
| town where I live.
| worik wrote:
| > That's just life. There's no other answer here.
|
| Yes there is. Management. It is the manager's job to do
| the unpleasant duties
|
| What a naive dreamer am I. The less you are paid, the
| more unpleasant the task
| ericmay wrote:
| Why should some barely paid above minimal wage coffee
| shop manager do that work either?
|
| There's no magical distinction between a coffee shop
| manager and barista.
|
| I'm not suggesting that a barista or even the manager
| have some sort of moral or legal obligation to kick some
| asshole out of a store. They don't have to do it. There
| are options. But generally speaking we all experience
| uncomfortable situations and you just deal with them like
| an adult in the best way you know how.
| anovikov wrote:
| I really can't imagine how it could probably ever work. So one
| goes into Starbucks and start bugging other random people sitting
| there (with whatever topic, not just pushing their "elevator
| pitch" onto them)? If that happened people will start avoiding
| them just like they avoid places frequented by bums or beggars.
| No one wants that. People won't go where it is possible.
| hiAndrewQuinn wrote:
| Typical mind fallacy. When I go visit places like this I do so
| with the explicit intention of meeting other people, otherwise
| I'd just stay at home.
|
| Plus, isn't the claim literally that there is correlational
| evidence here? That lightly suggests your model of how the
| world works in this area is off.
| TimorousBestie wrote:
| Cultural observations are not instances of typical mind
| fallacy, you're reading OP too literally.
| hiAndrewQuinn wrote:
| It's not a cultural observation. No society founded upon
| good commerce could possibly get by without the mechanism
| OP is describing being encouraged in at least some public
| or semi-public spaces. You need to actually intract with
| people to trade with them.
| bravesoul2 wrote:
| You are right, but then they invented long distance
| electronic communications, like the telephone. Even pre
| internet you'd run a business, word of mouth via... phone
| calls, trade shows..., plus maybe advertising. It needs
| no public space for random people to meet.
| worldsayshi wrote:
| I think a more likely scenario is that you schedule meetups
| with people that have similar interests.
| ghaff wrote:
| Yeah. If I'm going to meetup with someone outside of a
| conference room or whatever (probably associated with some
| other event), it will probably be a coffeeshop. But I'm not
| going to be inclined to strike up a bunch of random
| conversations at one.
| ekholm_e wrote:
| I used to work as a barista, and we had several
| entrepreneurs/small business owners who worked at the shop
| regularly. Most were friendly with one another. I'm not sure if
| any actually did business together, but they definitely chatted
| here and there.
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| The entrepreneurial people I know are incredibly social. They
| don't mind having, or striking up a conversation they weren't
| anticipating, or learning about strangers. It frequently isn't
| about business, but leads to networking regardless.
|
| It isn't like they are bugging people, its more like they
| overhear a conversation or see something of interest and find a
| way to jump in, in a way that isn't intrusive. "I can't help
| having overheard, but are you planning to open a Taco truck on
| 5th?" That kind of thing.
| hinkley wrote:
| I have manned a booth at a trade show twice in my younger
| days. When you're a little fish at a trade show, you get
| people chatting with you not because they're interested in
| your product, but to gather more data about where the
| industry is and where it is going. We actually tried not to
| engage them too much because it distracts from other people
| who might actually be interested.
| postexitus wrote:
| Turkish Starbucks and its local equivalents are usually open
| until 2am. Don't have an idea on the impact on entrepreneurship
| though.
| PartiallyTyped wrote:
| Dublin has a big problem with 3rd spaces; no cafe is open for
| anywhere close to that, and we are all basically shoved to
| pubs..
|
| I used to sit at cafes pretty late with a laptop -- buying
| multiple ( >= 2 ) cups of coffee, often salads and sandwiches
| -- in the countries I lived in, but there's none of that in
| Ireland. Most non-chain cafes are not open past 17; and chains
| go on until 20.
| sillyfluke wrote:
| British culture in general is pretty bad in this regard. Even
| in Central London, I find Leicester Square to be the only
| place that's a little alive at later hours. The pub culture,
| which I also like, might be to blame. If you start drinking
| at five on a work day it's pretty easy to call an early
| night. (there a lot of great third places if you stick to
| regular early hours, like the cafes of many of the museums.)
|
| Germany I find even worse though. It's kind of ironic since
| they seem to have a more robust nightclubbing culture
| compared to the Brits.
| picardo wrote:
| Is it normal for people to be drinking coffee so late in the
| day?
| sillyfluke wrote:
| I for one haven't been to a Starbucks anywhere in the world
| that even tracks whether sitting customers have ordered
| anything. Is this a thing? Has anyone been to such a
| Starbucks?
| zappb wrote:
| It's certainly normal in the Middle East where coffee is a
| big part of the culture. In some countries, coffee kind of
| fills the gap where alcohol might normally where it's banned.
| Majromax wrote:
| Original paper link: https://www.nber.org/papers/w32604
| huem0n wrote:
| Thank you. (Wouldn't have read otherwise)
| bdbenton5255 wrote:
| Like a church? A synagogue? A mosque? That fits the definition
| exactly. It seems like a substitute for a house of worship for
| people who do not believe in God.
| huem0n wrote:
| Starbucks is my favorite place to worship
| nemomarx wrote:
| You do things at a place of worship other than socializing and
| meeting people, so while a church is a third space not all
| third spaces are very church like. A bar doesn't really have
| worship analogues right
| williamdclt wrote:
| I don't think that's true. All third spaces I can think of
| are based on some activity, around which some community (or
| individual social relationships) form which might or might
| not be so closely related to the activity.
|
| - Church/temple/mosque/etc: worship - Bar: drinking alcoholic
| drinks - Gym/sport: physical exercise - Volunteering:
| whatever you're volunteering for - Coffee shop: coffee?
| Reading, working?
|
| All these have "a thing you do other than socializing and
| meeting people". You could (and do) go there specifically for
| the activity without socializing and meeting people (just
| like church).
|
| Spaces that are "social-only" are pretty rare. Coffee shops
| are maybe closer to that as you're probably not going to
| consume many coffees, but people stay to read, work... it's a
| bit less structured than other third spaces (and personally I
| find that it makes it more difficult to socialise there)
| graemep wrote:
| > Bar: drinking alcoholic drinks
|
| Also a feature of some churches - parties in the church
| hall, the university chapel I used to go to that had a
| church run bar in the same building!
|
| More seriously, bars are primarily places to socialise that
| happen serve drinks so I think they are similar to coffee
| shops that way.
| fipar wrote:
| But in a non-religious third place you may find people from any
| religion besides us atheists, which is not going to happen on
| places of worship. Your examples all seem more homogeneous to
| me.
|
| That may be good or bad depending on what you're looking for,
| but my point is I don't think they're as comparable as you do.
| graemep wrote:
| They are homogenous in terms of one shared belief. Places of
| religion can be just as varied in terms of most other things
| (industries, skills, politics apart from a few unacceptable
| things) and can be even more varied in some things (affluence
| of people there, and width of area they draw from).
| fipar wrote:
| Absolutely!
|
| I went to church as a kid and know what you mean. However,
| the shared belief usually implies a narrower heterogeneity,
| if that makes sense (in a way that's proportional to how
| orthodox the beliefs are).
|
| In a secular shared space it's far more common to be
| exposed to people with radically different beliefs, sexual
| orientation (or even preferences), and political views, to
| mention a few examples.
|
| I think it's very important that people have places where
| they can be surrounded by others that, while different as
| you say, all share a very important core belief, but it's
| also very important for a healthy society to have spaces
| where radically different people can coexist peacefully and
| even work towards some goal together (e.g., a "repair"
| meetup where people go get something fixed or help others
| fix things).
| graemep wrote:
| > sexual orientation (or even preferences), and political
| views,
|
| In the churches I have been to over the years (all
| Catholic or Anglican) I have met people with different
| sexual orientations and a very wide range of political
| views (everything except far right, as far left as
| outright communist).
|
| > I think it's very important that people have places
| where they can be surrounded by others that, while
| different as you say, all share a very important core
| belief, but it's also very important for a healthy
| society to have spaces where radically different people
| can coexist peacefully and even work towards some goal
| together
|
| I agree. It does happen at work anyway though so I put
| less importance on this as a requirement for third
| spaces.
| fipar wrote:
| >In the churches I have been to over the years (all
| Catholic or Anglican) I have met people with different
| sexual orientations and a very wide range of political
| views (everything except far right, as far left as
| outright communist).
|
| Yeah, it was similar for me (only Catholic churches in my
| case), though politics were usually homogeneous per
| church (what I mean is: whether you leaned left or right,
| you'd find a Catholic community to welcome you, but I'm
| not sure it'd be easy to find one that would comfortably
| welcome wide political views). As for sexual orientation,
| this was not common at all, but bear in mind the last
| time I attended Church was in the early 90s so things may
| have changed.
|
| > I agree. It does happen at work anyway though so I put
| less importance on this as a requirement for third
| spaces.
|
| I think the main difference of a third space vs work is
| that, at work, we're forced to "put up" with people we
| wouldn't normally engage with, because we all have the
| common goal of making a living, while in a third space,
| even in one with a common goal like the repair meetups I
| mentioned, you go there voluntarily and not because
| otherwise you can't put food on the table.
| graemep wrote:
| I think both will vary wildly. I also think my experience
| in the UK and Sri Lanka is very different from, say, the
| US.
|
| Catholic churches, politically, pretty similar to the
| rest of society where the church was, with a left wing
| tilt.
|
| Sexual orientation also varies with church. Obviously a
| gay friendly church (e.g. St Patrick's Soho a few decades
| ago, Farm Street now - both in Catholic London). For
| Anglican churches I would say St martin in the Fields
| where David Monteith (
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Monteith ) was one of
| our parish priests.
|
| > I think the main difference of a third space vs work is
| that, at work, we're forced to "put up" with people we
| wouldn't normally engage with, because we all have the
| common goal of making a living
|
| I agree, but by putting up with people you can come to
| like them, particularly if you are avoiding people
| because of things such as a stereotyped view of a group.
| dghlsakjg wrote:
| Do religious people go to church daily and hold business
| meetings in church? Do religious people go to a church to do a
| casual date or catch up with friends and associates on
| weekdays?
|
| I might be very misinformed about how church works, but I think
| that coffee shops fill a very different niche. History kinda
| supports this: coffee shops became valuable places of business
| and occupied the 'third place' role even in extremely religious
| places and times (I'm thinking of Lloyd's specifically, and
| 17th and 18th century coffee shop culture as a locus for
| business ventures in the Netherlands and England).
| graemep wrote:
| > Do religious people go to church daily
|
| Some do. Do people people go to sufficiently sociable cafes
| daily? Most people go with and talk to people they already
| know.
|
| >and hold business meetings in church? Do religious people go
| to a church to do a casual date
|
| Not in church, but with people they meet in church.
|
| > or catch up with friends and associates
|
| A lot of churches do have some socialising after services.
| Just serving coffee or something afterwards
|
| Even without that people chat on the way out.
|
| > on weekdays?
|
| If you go to church on weekdays
| worik wrote:
| Yes, I am in agreement
|
| I would like to add what many non-religious people (and
| some "out to lunch" evangelicals) do ot understand about
| churches (I guess this applies to mosque and synagogue
| too).
|
| The role of a church is social, not religious. There are
| religious elements of course, but churches would not be
| required if it were not for the communities they foster
| nsxwolf wrote:
| My church is also my kids' school. We also don't have bus
| service. During the school year a large portion of the parish
| is in constant contact and communication because of this.
| rexpop wrote:
| I am devoutly religious, but you are making chauvinistic
| assertions.
|
| "House of worship" does not deserve the primacy you assign it.
| First came "third places" and human relations, and _then_ came
| organized religion.
|
| You're putting the cart of Churches before the horse of human
| interaction.
| picardo wrote:
| I'd be interested to see an update to this study in the coming
| years. Starbucks has been pivoting towards take out and mobile
| orders and removing tables and chairs entirely from some of its
| stores lately.
| ghaff wrote:
| I don't dispute that there may be a trend but a lot of
| Starbucks have long had pretty scanty seating--and certainly
| tables where you can reasonably meet and talk. And it can be
| fairly difficult to find a table at more traditional
| cafes/coffeeshops. So there's reasonable debate over whether a
| lot of coffeeshops are really third places.
| walterbell wrote:
| _> debate over whether a lot of coffeeshops are really third
| places_
|
| What are some examples of real third places in major US
| cities?
| padraic7a wrote:
| Public Libraries.
| sneak wrote:
| The third places in the United States are almost
| exclusively churches and bars. It's sort of gross.
|
| As a teetotaling atheist, I moved to Berlin for the
| universities and night clubs, as there are tons of social
| events associated with both.
| picardo wrote:
| Agreed on both points. In my middle age, I've even
| considered starting drinking again so that I may have a
| reason to go to the only place where people hang out in
| my neighborhood, which is obviously a bar.
|
| The one and only social activity that has saved me from
| this road so far has been a few meetup groups that I
| frequent.
| sneak wrote:
| You can hang out in a bar and not drink alcohol. Tell
| them to put your ginger ale in a rocks glass.
|
| As we get older it's more important than ever to avoid
| alcohol. We don't have the organ margin we used to. All
| that bullshit about "a glass of wine a day is good for
| you" was fake.
| picardo wrote:
| I do that sometimes, but I get peer pressured into
| drinking alcohol if I socialize. You can't win.
|
| Agree with you about the benefits of avoiding alcohol.
| sneak wrote:
| I don't know how to put it nicely, so I'll say it as
| plainly as I can: it is an essential life todo item to
| learn to resist peer pressure. It's easier than it seems.
| If people can get you to do things you don't want to do
| just by repeating things at you, that's a you problem,
| and a big one.
|
| Also, separately, if the people you are hanging out with
| can't take no for an answer, get better friends. Friends
| don't pressure friends to poison themselves for
| camaraderie.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| I hang out at a bar downstairs in a resort area all of
| the time just to have casual conversations with random
| tourists who come in and the bartender who I'm friends
| with. I'm not a non drinker. But half the time I just get
| soda (free) or may have one drink.
|
| There is no pressure. I just tell people I come down to
| socialize - mostly with couples and guys who show up. I
| am married and no matter what it comes off as creepy to
| start conversations with women and often their husbands
| are around.
|
| Since I am friends with bartender and people see me
| talking to him and it's obvious that we know each other ,
| it doesn't come off the wrong way.
| os2warpman wrote:
| >The third places in the United States are almost
| exclusively churches and bars
|
| I keep hearing this and completely disagree.
|
| I assert that within an hour of any location in the
| entire united states not so remote that supplies have to
| be delivered by airplane (so excluding rural Alaska and
| outlying territorial possessions) there are numerous
| third spaces.
|
| As a benchmark I use the small town of 400 that you've
| never heard of abutting Hoosier National Forest in VERY
| rural southern Indiana that my grandparents lived in,
| which I spent every summer for over a decade in.
|
| Within a 40-ish minute drive of that small town there
| are:
|
| * two astronomy clubs: Evansville Astronomical Society
| and Louisville Astronomical Society
|
| * two amateur radio clubs: Clark County Amateur Radio
| Club and Bullitt Amateur Radio Society
|
| * four public libraries: Crawford, Paoli, Harrison
| County, Washington Carnegie. The closest library (15
| minutes) has a makerspace with an Epilog laser, Brother
| Needle Embroidery Machine, Roland Large Format Printer,
| BambuLabs Carbon 3d Printer, Elegoo Saturn SLA 3d
| Printer, Cricut, Sewing machine, and Serger. If you're
| like me and didn't know what a Serger is, it is a machine
| that sews borders and embroidery onto things.
|
| Plus an Anime & Manga club (in rural southern
| indiana!??!) scrapbooking, sewing, and multiple book
| clubs.
|
| * five conservation clubs: Duff, Huntingburg, Mariah
| Hill, Livonia, and Schnellville (these are shooting,
| fishing, and hiking clubs in case you're not aware)
|
| * too many to list civic organizations like rotary clubs,
| elks, masons, veterans, and other civic clubs
|
| * a volunteer fire department in every county and most
| medium-sized towns (all of which need members ALL of the
| time)
|
| There is even a small community-run performing arts
| center if you want to audition for plays, hold a
| performance, or be a volunteer crewmember:
| https://www.hayswoodtheatre.org/support-hayswood
|
| All of this in rural, impoverished, isolated Southern
| Indiana where the Amish and Mennonites own all of the
| stores, the grain drying bins of neighboring farms keep
| you up at night, and cellphone coverage tapers off to a
| teasing and deceptive worse than nothing.
|
| I am a middle-aged man.
|
| I take the middle-aged man loneliness epidemic very
| seriously.
|
| I am also a bit of a dick: get off your fucking phone and
| Xbox, quit bitching about the lack of "third places", and
| go out and do something.
|
| There is a group, doing something, who wants you to join
| them in every county of every state of the entire United
| States.
|
| You are not suffering from a lack of opportunities; you
| are suffering from a lack of imagination and motivation.
| korse wrote:
| >get off your fucking phone and Xbox, quit bitching about
| the lack of "third places", and go out and do something.
|
| 100% this (and it applies to 'the death of the internet'
| too).
| bluefirebrand wrote:
| > I take the middle-aged man loneliness epidemic very
| seriously
|
| > I am also a bit of a dick
|
| With an attitude like this, you realize you're part of
| the male loneliness problem, right?
|
| How many times do people show up to your clubs and
| organizations one time and then never show up again?
|
| Think on it
|
| A big part of the "male loneliness epidemic" is that a
| lot of men are huge assholes for no reason
| randycupertino wrote:
| For a lot of parents it's their kid's sports team events.
| At my local pool there are people who RV camp and grill
| during swim team events and the parents hang out all day,
| play spikeball, read, gossip, chill and otherwise hang out
| together while the kids compete in all-day competitions.
| tejohnso wrote:
| Probably not popular, but I like board game cafes. You pay
| an hourly fee to play one of dozens of board games while
| also enjoying food and drink typical of a coffee shop. I
| think the public library should be a great third place.
| They should have board games and computers in addition to
| books, but they're often unsatisfactory in terms of
| variety, cleanliness, or proximity.
| fireflash38 wrote:
| I've been seeing more breweries focusing on catering to
| parents of young children too by building playsets or
| having more child-friendly areas.
| walterbell wrote:
| If neighborhood entrepreneurs would benefit from seating,
| cities can require a minimum number of chairs per square foot,
| starting with a non-zero number to address US Starbucks
| locations that have removed all chairs.
| sorcerer-mar wrote:
| Or they can just get rid of Euclidean zoning and allow people
| to create small commercial enterprises in their actual
| neighborhoods so actual neighbors can easily spend time
| there.
| picardo wrote:
| Mixed use zoning is quite common in major American cities.
| It's much more complicated to implement than Euclidean
| zoning, though, so I assume it faces some adoption
| challenges in smaller cities.
| sorcerer-mar wrote:
| Yeah it's mostly common in places where it has existed
| historically, and yeah there's been a new effort to
| reintroduce it.
|
| Euclidean zoning is the obvious thing to do if you're
| planning from a 30,000 foot view, but planning should be
| done at the level at which humans exist!
| potato3732842 wrote:
| Mixed use zoning is better than not allowing it at all
| but almost always results in the activity simply not
| being economically profitable due to the other
| restrictions.
|
| The problem with that is that the "rich enough to have no
| real problems" people know that for every upscale coffee
| shop they like there will be five people doing heavier
| economic activity that they don't like and because
| they're the only ones with the free time to care they
| drive the conversation and they limit it to light
| consumer businesses which of course can't work because
| that hypothetical coffee shop or sandwich shop needs the
| foot traffic from all the other business (that doesn't
| exist, because it's not allowed) in order to actually
| turn a profit without insane prices. And so then nothing
| actually gets developed in the up-zoned area and it's
| still a glorified bedroom community.
|
| The people who could actually provide the political will
| for a proper removal or liberalization of the zoning
| don't get involved, because they all have other shit
| going on that's more important.
| sorcerer-mar wrote:
| This would be clearer if you actually described the
| relevant stakeholders directly instead of these oblique
| references. Really not sure who does what here.
| yesfitz wrote:
| They had been!
|
| But in 2024, Brian Niccols pitched the "Back to Starbucks"
| plan, with point 3 of his 4 point focus being, "Reestablishing
| Starbucks as the community coffeehouse."[1] He said, "Our
| stores will be inviting places to linger, with comfortable
| seating, thoughtful design and a clear distinction between "to-
| go" and "for-here" service."
|
| Whether or not that's working is another story[2]. Long story
| short is that Scooters, Dutch Bros. and other brands are doing
| drive-thru better, and cafe attendance is down 22% since before
| the pandemic.
|
| Consumer tastes have shifted. And given Gen Z's preference for
| online interaction over in-person, I'm not sure if Starbucks
| will be able to steer the ship.
|
| If I were Starbucks, I'd strongly consider splitting the
| branding on the cafes and drive-thrus. Keep the Starbucks brand
| with the drive-thrus, then try opening a few new cafes as a new
| brand. Worst case scenario, you rebrand those cafes as
| Starbucks. I bet they've talked about it.
|
| 1: https://www.cnbc.com/2024/09/10/new-starbucks-ceo-brian-
| nicc... 2: https://intelligence.coffee/2025/05/back-to-
| starbucks-long-o...
| barbazoo wrote:
| > "Reestablishing Starbucks as the community coffeehouse."
|
| What a load of corporate bullshit. Unlike any other community
| coffee house, this one made almost $10b in profit last year.
| I wonder how much the "community" really benefits from this.
|
| https://finance.yahoo.com/quote/SBUX/financials/
| yesfitz wrote:
| We're literally commenting on a scholarly article that
| describes how the community benefits from Starbucks
| locations.
| picardo wrote:
| Oh snap.
| potato3732842 wrote:
| >Unlike any other community coffee house, this one made
| almost $10b in profit last year. I wonder how much the
| "community" really benefits from this
|
| That's around $60k per store. That sounds like a very
| reasonable number for an absentee coffee shop owner (which
| is basically what the shareholders are).
| barbazoo wrote:
| Assuming that's going to the store which I very much
| doubt.
| carlosjobim wrote:
| The word "profit" means that this is the money which is
| by definition not going to the store. Any money which
| goes to the store is not counted into profits.
| joshlemer wrote:
| When a company makes a profit, that doesn't necessarily
| mean they made anyone else worse off. In general, when in a
| competitive environment, and dealing with customers who are
| responsible adults (which both hold in the case of the
| restaurant industry), we should presume that everyone is
| being made better off by the transactions, that it's a win-
| win situation.
| azemetre wrote:
| It does when this is the same company that threatens
| employees who want to unionize.
|
| Hard to extol the virtues of profit when it results in
| this. I'm sure the owner love it tho.
| joshlemer wrote:
| Well, a union is a form of cartel, it's an anti
| competitive organization of market participants who are
| colluding to set prices and extract other concessions
| from labour buyers. They therefor undermine the ability
| of markets to maximize value for all participants.
| bluefirebrand wrote:
| > They therefor undermine the ability of markets to
| maximize value for all participants.
|
| Currently markets are not maximizing value for all
| participants, only the wealthiest and owners, so frankly
| I don't think anyone should give a damn about them
|
| "Labour Buyers" should be counting their blessings if
| workers _just_ unionize right now
| ethan_smith wrote:
| This pivot to takeout-focused stores could completely invert
| the study's findings, as the core mechanism of serendipitous
| encounters that drive entrepreneurship disappears when physical
| gathering spaces are eliminated.
| WasimBhai wrote:
| I am sorry, I did not follow the guidelines so link was rightly
| removed. Here is the audioform link:
| https://thetreeoflife.cc/demo
| bravesoul2 wrote:
| In SF? Not anywhere I've been though. Cafes I see are full of
| friends catching up, families or caffeine addicts.
| ak217 wrote:
| Check Four Barrel or The Mill. I'm sure there are others. For
| many years, Coffeebar played this role in SF - I was sad when
| they closed.
| b0a04gl wrote:
| i remember koramangala, 5th block specifically, mid 2023. that
| blue tokai outlet next to roastery was ground zero. half of early
| stage bangalore was working from there. two pm to six pm you'd
| overhear: investor calls, pitch deck review, even product
| teardown with some YC alum. no seats inside so i parked at the
| outside bench near the window. wifi barely reached there. next to
| me this guy's debugging something on a steamdeck looking devkit.
| i half glance over and ask if it's AWS creds, he goes 'nah, it's
| some edge TPU , google keeps timing out cold starts'. we start
| chatting.
|
| turns out he's building vision for offline-first retail. he's got
| no frontend, just a python backend. i scribble something on a
| napkin about fast-booting wasm modules from disk cache. 3 weeks
| later he pings me on telegram saying they got boot time down from
| 14s to 2.8s using a variant of that.
|
| never met him again. never even learned his startup's name. but
| that entire bottleneck cleared because two people overheard a
| swear word near a bad socket.
|
| we maynot recreate that on a discord channel. there's no
| incentive to overshare when you're not spatially co-located.
| bangalore 2023 worked because entropy was high and friction was
| low
| aadhavans wrote:
| I grew up ~20 minutes from the place you're describing, and you
| just made me very nostalgic :D
| kylehotchkiss wrote:
| I miss blue tokai! So many fun memories and delicious cold
| coffees there
| gopalv wrote:
| > bangalore 2023 worked because entropy was high and friction
| was low
|
| Go a whole decade+ back, it was the Leela coffee shop which
| opened till 1 AM.
|
| > we maynot recreate that on a discord channel.
|
| IRC + freenode did the same decades ago, back in the day when
| the computers wouldn't fit in a backpack - people would just
| lurk socially and not really join a channel for a purpose.
|
| Most of #linux-india was a third place after midnight, though
| not a physical one.
| neilv wrote:
| > _because two people overheard a swear word near a bad
| socket._
|
| There's also an undesirable side to coworking cafe low-OPSEC.
|
| Funny anecdote about that...
|
| I was meeting up with a startups friend, at one of the cafes
| that's popular for techbros.
|
| Before we met up, friend mentioned this guy from the startups
| scene, who sometimes lurks at that cafe, to steal ideas.
|
| So friend and I are talking at the cafe about an application
| domain we both know. And how we're surprised no one is doing X
| for it, because then you could do A, B, C, etc.
|
| I look over, and some guy has moved from his table, to sit on
| the floor, close to us, and just has a cat-that-got-the-canary
| beaming look on his face. Yes, it was the noted lurker-stealer
| guy.
|
| Shortly after, an organization he's affiliated with announced a
| big initiative/group to do X for that application domain. Maybe
| just a funny coincidence.
| drekipus wrote:
| Is the problem solved then? Is he making bank?
|
| Ideas are useless without execution
| neilv wrote:
| Agreed about the importance of execution.
|
| The anecdote is a funny way to raise awareness about OPSEC.
|
| There's reasons that most companies don't air all their
| internal discussions and work publicly.
|
| In a cafe, it can be easy to forget that.
|
| And there really are people who actively exploit that.
| aspenmayer wrote:
| > Is the problem solved then? Is he making bank?
| wagwang wrote:
| > First, we compare census tracts that received a Starbucks to
| census tracts that expected a Starbucks but did not ultimately
| get one due to administrative issues such as city planning,
| zoning board rejection, architectural board rejection, or
| community mobilization. These 'rejected' Starbucks are a natural
| control group because Starbucks Corporation also sought to invest
| in those neighborhoods.
|
| This is a terrible control group cuz it probably means that the
| cities that rejected starbucks have idiotic zoning and permit
| policies that impact entrepreneurship. Like SF, any restaurant
| that has over 7 locations requires special permitting and can be
| easily blocked.
| hinkley wrote:
| They're usually called "third spaces" not third places. Otherwise
| you'd confuse them with bronze medal winners.
| Nicell wrote:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place
| hinkley wrote:
| Wikipedia, the arbiter of all truth.
|
| > Third space" redirects here. For the postcolonial term, see
| Third Space Theory. For the concept of informal shared public
| space in community planning, see Third place.
|
| There's a bookstore in Seattle called Third Place Books.
| Rarely did I encounter someone who knew why it was called
| that.
| nsxwolf wrote:
| You people already turned every coffee shop into a wework and now
| you want a "third space".
| worik wrote:
| Twenty five years ago, when I did Econ 101 I had it explained to
| me the theoretical underpinning for the fact that coffee shop
| chains are impossible
|
| Does Starbucks even exist?
| ak217 wrote:
| In terms of the ratio of profitability to social good and
| positive economic externalities, coffee shops are in a category
| of their own. All the cities trying to attract businesses and
| stuff should just subsidize some coffee shops first.
| mystraline wrote:
| At least in the US, SBUX _was_ the primary 3rd place until they
| decided to remove themselves in lieu of drivethru and mobile
| orders... And removing chairs and tables.
|
| To be fair, a proper 3rd place really can't be a company proper,
| since there's always the pressure of 'buy or leave'.
|
| Even malls aren't sufficient, since many of them are incredibly
| hostile to under-18. I instead look at public libraries as the
| gold standard here.
|
| It makes much more sense for cities to run the actual 3rd place,
| and businesses rent around the 3rd place. That way, coffee shops,
| restaurants, and the like can comingle as can the people.
|
| Outside the USA, we see more of that in various areas. But folks
| here would likely howl socialism with a 3rd place run by the
| city. One can wish for better community, but alas.
| gopalv wrote:
| > folks here would likely howl socialism with a 3rd place run
| by the city.
|
| It is not socialism, the problem is the lack of that.
|
| My city does a good job of running a 3rd place as part of their
| library, it is right outside the library in a big seating area
| meant for phone calls & talking in general.
|
| But they have 3 full-time security staff, the police station is
| across the street and the social case workers have an office in
| the same building.
|
| Outside of a decent coffee, the place has everything for me to
| walk in with my kids in the summer and work while they roam the
| hallways as if it was their own, meeting other kids from the
| same school district. There's even a no-cars allowed trail
| connecting the place for kids to cycle safely to.
|
| However, take away the constant enforcement by security +
| social case worker hovering, this falls apart because it'll
| have the etiquette of a subway car.
|
| The homeless are there btw, but they tend to be non-disruptive
| and mostly there to get help with something (like a cancelled
| EBT card).
| chasd00 wrote:
| > But folks here would likely howl socialism with a 3rd place
| run by the city.
|
| I think you're talking about a public library, there's
| typically plenty of rooms and tables to sit down at and talk
| with others.
| mystraline wrote:
| I explicitly call out public libraries.
|
| But I didn't get into that discussion, but even that system
| was borne out of Carnegie, an earlier hypercapitalist. That's
| probably the only reason why libraries are publicly accepted.
| And in reality, many Republican jurisdictions, they aren't
| accepted and are being actively defunded.
|
| Well, what I was getting to was more of a European piazza
| style open area with businesses surrounding it so that people
| can attend somewhere ever to whatever.
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