[HN Gopher] Munich from a Hamburger's perspective
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Munich from a Hamburger's perspective
        
       Author : toomuchtodo
       Score  : 98 points
       Date   : 2025-06-15 20:55 UTC (4 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (mertbulan.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (mertbulan.com)
        
       | ahofmann wrote:
       | A nitpick, that bothers me more, than I'd like to admit: the
       | author talks about the former divide in Germany and the
       | difference between Hamburg and Munich because of that. Problem
       | is, both towns where in west Germany and not divided at all
       | (except of course by the Weisswurstaquator ;-)).
        
         | Svip wrote:
         | I assume you are referring to this sentence:
         | 
         | > I know German history and how divided the country used to be,
         | so it shouldn't be a surprise to see these differences.
         | 
         | The author is not talking about Germany post-WW2, but pre-1870,
         | where Germany was divided into 39 independent states (if we
         | include the Austrian Empire), at least in the 19th century.
         | Before that, the number was likely higher.
         | 
         | German history is a lot longer than the past century.
        
           | mc32 wrote:
           | It's true; however it'd probably be a nice parenthetical to
           | add context to the division bring referenced. Kind of how
           | it's good manners to initially spell out any acronyms at the
           | beginning of a text.
        
             | dietr1ch wrote:
             | IMHO abbreviations that you don't define are way easier to
             | miss than context that an audience, maybe larger than
             | originally planned, is going to need.
        
               | bcraven wrote:
               | The irony contained in this sentence is superb.
        
             | gerikson wrote:
             | As soon as I saw the title my thoughts went to the old
             | divide between Lutheran High Germany and Catholic Bavaria.
             | But that's a lot because I had a coworker (from Berlin)
             | whose grandfather was from Bavaria and ran away to sea to
             | avoid becoming a priest, which his mother had promised God
             | he would become for sparing his brother in WW1.
        
             | Svip wrote:
             | In truth, I was a bit surprised to see the piece written in
             | English, because it feels like the audience should be
             | German-speaking. Whilst there is an initial paragraph
             | discussing the different situations within the Holy Roman
             | Empire in the 1100s, the Holy Roman Empire itself is never
             | explained, merely assumed (in fact, it is not even
             | mentioned by name). Perhaps it comes natural to Germans
             | themselves that their history of unity is far smaller than
             | their history of division.
        
               | Exoristos wrote:
               | We spent years on this area's history between elementary
               | school and high school, and I'm from rural Kentucky. The
               | eastern Franks. Henry V and the Pope. Barbarossa. Luther
               | and Anabaptism. The Fredericks and Prussian civil order.
               | Romanticism. Moltke and Bismarck. The Christian Democracy
               | movement. Weimar. Before the obvious stuff from more-
               | recent history.
        
             | Tomte wrote:
             | > So while Munich was ruled by a single dynasty for
             | centuries, Hamburg was more independent and focused on
             | trade.
             | 
             | > There are also clear religious differences. Both cities
             | were Catholic until the 16th century, but during the
             | Reformation, Hamburg became Protestant.
             | 
             | Etc.
             | 
             | At this point not getting it seems willful.
        
             | bee_rider wrote:
             | I read it as more of an "yeah sure, let's dispense with the
             | really obvious thing" type aside. Going into too much
             | detail would be distracting.
        
           | croemer wrote:
           | > pre-1870, where Germany was divided into 39 independent
           | states
           | 
           | The 39 independent states is only correct for a few years in
           | the 19th century. Summarizing the changes in number of states
           | of the German confederation since 1815:                 1815:
           | 39 (German Confederation founded)       1817: 40 (Hesse-
           | Homburg admitted)       1839: 41 (Limburg added)       1850:
           | 39 (Prussia annexes two Hohenzollern duchies)       1853: 38
           | (Anhalt-Kothen merged)       1863: 37 (Anhalt-Bernburg
           | merged)       1866: 36 (Confederation collapses; Prussia
           | absorbs Hanover etc.)       1867: 26 (22 in North
           | Confederation + 4 southern kingdoms)       1871: German
           | Empire formed, states are no longer independent
        
       | amunozo wrote:
       | I did a research stay two summers ago in Munich and oh my God,
       | it's the best place I've "lived" by far. So clean, so calm, yet
       | so vibrant.
        
         | mvdwoord wrote:
         | I lived there for three years, about 10 years ago, and could
         | not agree more. Highest quality of life I have experienced.
        
         | vasilzhigilei wrote:
         | I lived in Munich for a month a few summers ago. While I
         | enjoyed it, and it was definitely clean, I couldn't help but
         | describe Munich as a "city where people go to work". Pleasant,
         | but not exciting. Very walkable, though!
        
         | mft_ wrote:
         | Interesting; from my experience, clean, calm, safe, and
         | expensive, but absolutely not what I'd call vibrant. A lot of
         | the time it feels flat and dull in comparison to other large
         | cities - Berlin, London, Barcelona, etc.
         | 
         | (My personal theory is that it's just too rich and developed;
         | you need cheap 'edgy' areas to support the people and business
         | ideas that make places more interesting. Plus Bavarian culture
         | is [in a nutshell] basically Catholic Churches and beer
         | houses/gardens, so not hugely varied.)
        
           | Barrin92 wrote:
           | >A lot of the time it feels flat and dull in comparison to
           | other large cities [...] My personal theory is that it's just
           | too rich and developed; you need cheap 'edgy' areas
           | 
           | As someone hailing from Cologne but with lots of friends in
           | Munich, I tend to agree. Maybe it's the "Ruhrpott"
           | dysfunction you're used to when you grew up in this part of
           | Germany, but Munich always felt like a giant Apple Store,
           | Hamburg does too but with a Protestant/Nordic spin instead of
           | the posh Catholic south.
           | 
           | I think also another factor is that Munich is monocentric,
           | the urban core absorbed districts very quickly (most people
           | wouldn't know it these days but Bavaria used to be very
           | underdeveloped for a long time) whereas the Ruhr area or
           | Berlin are much more decentralized urban agglomerations,
           | growing over a longer time, making it a bit more chaotic and
           | sprawlish and economically hit or miss.
        
           | CGMthrowaway wrote:
           | Idk about that. The Bavarian State Opera is very good, and
           | all three(!) of Munich's three orchestras are world-class.
           | Munich is a science and tech hub bringing interesting and
           | important transients all the time. It has an amazing art
           | collection, English Gardens that actually get used, and
           | cultural and entertainment amenities that are well-spread
           | across different parts of the city.
        
           | amunozo wrote:
           | Well, you're right. I was comparing to places as clean, calm
           | and safe as Munich. I only found that kind of peace in much
           | smaller cities that were way less vibrant. I understand (and
           | agree) with your second paragraph, but from all the "too rich
           | and developed" places I've been, this is the most vibrant.
           | 
           | Except for housing, I did not find it particularly expensive.
           | I ate out at very nice places for less than 10EUR a lot of
           | times, ice creams were amazing and cheap, too. At least
           | compared to Spain, I did not noticed a big difference, taking
           | into account the wealth of the city.
        
             | bgnn wrote:
             | Vienna is a better version of Munich for the things you
             | seem to like. Have you been there?
        
           | fxj wrote:
           | Munich has a smaller version of the Octoberfest all year
           | around. Beer Gardens everywhere, many people wearing
           | "Tracht". The tourists love it and the munich people love the
           | money. It has some nice places like the English Garden or the
           | River Side. Also the Farmers Market in the city centre is
           | nice to hang around. It is not for the young crowd but more
           | for the settled and wealthy ones. Very much like Zurich, but
           | bigger. The mountains are close and the lakes around Munich
           | are famous. Also many nice castles like Schloss Nymphenburg,
           | the Residenz and of course the castle built by Ludwig II.
           | Lots of historic buildings. The city was founded 1158 and
           | parts of the old city still exist.
        
         | CGMthrowaway wrote:
         | Munich, Vienna, Budapest, Prague, Trieste, Krakow, even
         | Innsbruck, Bratislava -
         | 
         | I have traveled all over Europe, just about everywhere, and my
         | favorite cities are consistently in the old Habsburg Realm.
         | 
         | I don't know why but that's what they all have in common.
        
           | hellrich wrote:
           | Munich/Bavaria were not ruled by the Habsburgs, unless you
           | want to count the whole Holy Roman Empire.
        
             | CGMthrowaway wrote:
             | Yeah good point. Now I need to find a different commonality
        
               | jackcosgrove wrote:
               | I think "Habsburg" is a good enough descriptor. It
               | encompasses the Catholic, northern-influenced culture (if
               | not actually in the north like Trieste) as well as the
               | baroque, counter Reformation-derived artistic styles.
        
               | lostlogin wrote:
               | They had a couple of notable 20th century leaders.
        
               | mistrial9 wrote:
               | see the movie The Sound of Music
        
           | anyfoo wrote:
           | As someone from Munich, I often joke that if I fell
           | unconscious and woke up in Vienna, it would take me a rather
           | long time to figure out that I'm not in Munich.
        
             | neuronic wrote:
             | If in doubt just try to open Immoscout and rent an
             | apartment.
        
         | j-krieger wrote:
         | I live there. It's the best city I ever lived in. I just wish
         | my rent wasn't so sky high.
        
       | martin_a wrote:
       | As someone who has been to both Hamburg and Munich quite a few
       | times I find them hard to compare. Each city has its own benefits
       | and they are both great in their way.
       | 
       | I think in the end it comes down to whether you like mountains
       | more than harbors. ;-)
       | 
       | Hamburg has its own charme with the harbor and the surrounding
       | history of sailors, trade, red light districts, very old
       | factories etc.
       | 
       | Munich is much more polished but also kind of crammed. Cars
       | everywhere, lots of traffic in the streets, yes, parks also,
       | but... it's different.
       | 
       | I like both cities and also beer from both cities. If you're not
       | from Germany and decide to come over: Visit both of them and
       | enjoy their uniqueness.
        
         | cantalopes wrote:
         | I don't know what munich you were in, but it's one of the most
         | uninviting, dirty and boring cities i've ever been to
        
           | fxj wrote:
           | Munchner here. It is a very touristy city. Dirty? not so much
           | in comparison to other german cities like Cologne or Berlin.
           | Uninviting and boring depends what you want to do. Nightlife
           | in comparison to Berlin is poor. All the techno clubs are
           | there. Octoberfest is a melting pot for the whole world.
           | Americans and Australiens have a hard time digesting the
           | amounts of beer.
        
           | neuronic wrote:
           | I am from Munich but live in Hamburg. I have read all
           | comments here and experienced people visiting and heckling
           | Munich for decades now. People can talk a lot of shit about
           | Munich, many things rightfully so.
           | 
           | But dirty? I have literally never heard anyone say that. If
           | you think Munich is dirty you must be from Singapore or Japan
           | and never visited any other city on the planet.
        
         | blackguardx wrote:
         | I went to Munich last September and didn't see any mountains
         | from the city. I was very surprised because I flew direct from
         | Denver and maps made it seem similarly situated. Munich and
         | surrounding areas more closely resemble Wisconsin than anything
         | else.
        
           | fxj wrote:
           | You can see them on sunny days when the wind blows from the
           | south. So called "Fohn" weather.
        
           | neuronic wrote:
           | Actual mountains are about a 90min drive from Munich (towards
           | Garmisch).
        
         | fxj wrote:
         | Hamburg has a harbor and is at the riverside of a large stream
         | so that makes it a complete different setup. Munich on the
         | other hand still has a castle in the inner city (Residenz) and
         | has many historical buildings. Hamburg has the status of a
         | "state" in Germany while Munich is the capital of Bavaria (a
         | state in Germany). Both cities are rich and the rich people
         | also celebrate the weath in both cities. If you want a party
         | city you better go to Berlin. (Arm aber sexy (Poor but sexy))
         | is their slogan.
        
       | mschuster91 wrote:
       | Munich is an awesome city... for a tourist. It's clean, one of
       | the safest cities of Germany (with the exception of the Central
       | Station) and, with the exception of some "Asi-Viertels", well
       | maintained (particularly compared to Berlin, Frankfurt or most of
       | NRW), the attractions are _awesome_ , and the beer is excellent.
       | 
       | For locals though? Speaking as one (who fled a year ago to nearby
       | Landshut and still has to commute)... if you think about moving
       | here, please don't:
       | 
       | - public transport is way too overcrowded, no matter what type of
       | it, and forget about commute by car unless you are rich enough to
       | pay someone to drive for you
       | 
       | - The rents are frankly _insane_ , and fucking Bavarian wannabe-
       | chieftain Soder keeps inviting one big company after another to
       | Munich (instead of, say, Nuremberg for a change) while doing
       | everything he can to avoid and hinder helping Munich alleviate
       | the housing cost crisis.
       | 
       | - Munich's police are rabid if you're not white. Particularly the
       | Central Station is _not_ a good thing to  "live while Black" (or
       | dressed like a hippie or alternative), you'll get hounded by them
       | because they can and will suspect you being a drug dealer,
       | although the situation has relaxed a bit ever since cannabis got
       | legalized federally a year ago.
       | 
       | - did I already mention the insane lack of housing? Seriously:
       | prepare to either pay through your nose for short-term
       | accomodation or couchsurfing, unless you are employed at one of
       | the tech giants or rich enough to buy a place in cash you will
       | likely spend a year or two until you have housing. If you are a
       | student, that applies even more.
       | 
       | - a lot of Munich's infrastructure dates back to the money spigot
       | times of the Olympic Games 1972 - and is subsequently shut down
       | for repairs all the time because there hasn't been much invested
       | in maintenance over the decades.
       | 
       | - Oktoberfest, Bauma (the construction trade fair) and the
       | regular Champions League soccer games grind the entire city to a
       | standstill. If you can help it, DO NOT move to any area close to
       | the Theresienwiese (people WILL piss and even shit on your porch,
       | I speak from personal experience) and to the Sechzger-Stadion in
       | Giesing (in addition to the noise, 1860 fans are violent hothead
       | hools that lead to massive disruptions for traffic every time
       | that sorry excuse for a football club has a game).
        
         | FirmwareBurner wrote:
         | _> inviting one big company after another to Munich (instead
         | of, say, Nuremberg for a change)_
         | 
         | Companies go where the workforce already is. No company will
         | waste their time to convince workforce to move to a smaller and
         | cheaper town just for them, and workers won't move to a smaller
         | and cheaper town just for one employer in case it doesn't work
         | out and need to job hop quickly.
        
         | donjoe wrote:
         | ... If you live close by Theresienwiese, the city provides free
         | cleaning for any accidents during Oktoberfest in your
         | front/backyard also. I have to smile everytime I do find the
         | note containing an emergency accident cleanup number in my
         | mailbox :-)
        
           | fxj wrote:
           | Well I live very close to Theresienwiese and dont have any
           | problems at all. During the 2 weeks of Octoberfest they clean
           | the streets every morning at 4am and everything is clean and
           | shiny again. Also now that the Theresienwiese have been
           | encircled by a fence during Octoberfest the numbers of drunk
           | people has fallen dramatically.
        
         | Tornhoof wrote:
         | As someone who still lives in the suburbs of munich, I want to
         | emphasize on the horrible public transportation situation in
         | munich. It's always under construction, nothing really works
         | and, as soon as there is some Public Event, everything breaks
         | down.
        
           | SvenL wrote:
           | Well, about the public transport being always under
           | construction, yes, it is. But I think it's a good thing.
           | 
           | First there is quite some money put into public
           | transportation which is great.
           | 
           | Second, it has to be modernized all the time to accommodate
           | for the growing passenger numbers and city growth.
           | 
           | Last but not least, for a long time there was no investment
           | done into public transportation in Munich, so now they have
           | to do more to keep up.
           | 
           | I like it and I would not like to live in a city which
           | doesn't invest in its public transportation system.
        
         | ilumanty wrote:
         | Can confirm every single point you made.
         | 
         | I'd add that riding a bike is also quite stressful at times.
        
           | mschuster91 wrote:
           | Munich streets are a war zone - you always gotta be the top
           | dog. Too much traffic, way too much.
           | 
           | And yet I routinely see morons here and on r/de + r/Munich
           | advocate to build even more housing for people in Munich... I
           | mean, obviously, more housing is good, but as there is no way
           | to meaningfully expand the capacity of public transport it's
           | frankly useless.
        
             | twixfel wrote:
             | It's quite the opposite of moronic to build more housing
             | where there is demand.
        
             | j-krieger wrote:
             | OP's article touches on this. This city is too crowded man.
             | There are too many people on too little space
        
         | subarctic wrote:
         | So it's busy, expensive and hard to find a place to live.
         | Sounds like any popular city that lots of people want to move
         | to.
        
           | okanat wrote:
           | People want to work in companies that pay a lot. They are
           | usually not aware of intricacies of the city that the work is
           | in.
        
         | mns wrote:
         | As someone living in Munich for more than 10 years, 5 around
         | Hauptbahnhof and another 8 around Theresienwiese, I think
         | you're exaggerating quite a lot, as well as the people below.
         | But in general people do exaggerate and complain a lot about
         | the places they live in, especially Germans :) Munich probably
         | has one of the best public transport systems in the world, but
         | god forbid the S Bahn have some issues during winter or a
         | storm, and some people have to lose their minds about what a
         | disaster the public transport is.
         | 
         | I think people should appreciate more the good places they are
         | living in, instead of trying to find something to complain in
         | every single aspect of their lives
        
         | j-krieger wrote:
         | > The rents are frankly insane, and fucking Bavarian wannabe-
         | chieftain Soder keeps inviting one big company after another to
         | Munich (instead of, say, Nuremberg for a change) while doing
         | everything he can to avoid and hinder helping Munich alleviate
         | the housing cost crisis
         | 
         | I live there and I know this to be true, but I don't get it. I
         | personally know tech companies that can't hire in Munich
         | because they can't find apartments for their hirees to live in.
        
       | ItCouldBeWorse wrote:
       | I find both cities, cultivate a strong "The rest is peasants"
       | vibe - but Hamburg is quite at the top with this. It seeps
       | through the media made there ("Der Spiegel") and the authors
       | writting in it. Its also part of the multi-culturality and
       | openess that comes with having a harbour - which a landlocked
       | city "naturally has a hard time developing". So whenever you goto
       | hamburg from the south, you recieve a ton of subtle signs about
       | the superiority of the city and the "elb-adel" (aristocrats) and
       | its old history ("Wir waren Hanse, wat ward ihr? Bauernvolk fur
       | den Marchenkonig bis pleite!"). The harbour of hamburg is old and
       | awesome by the way!
       | 
       | The only thing that really helped to covercome these century old
       | - was ironically the Conscription for the Bundeswehr in the cold
       | war, intentionally mixing recruits allover germany and binding
       | groups of friends together. That is now absent for a while- but
       | the Ruhrpott and hamburg have missmanaged germany for quite a
       | while now - and it shows, as subtle cracks of doubt in the
       | superiority surface.
       | 
       | Cumex and Wirecard showed that elite as the lame ducks without a
       | plan they really are.
       | 
       | PS: This explicitly ignores the Neo-prussians of berlin and the
       | insults they throw at everything outside in the "incest-villages"
       | as they call the rest of germany.
        
         | neuronic wrote:
         | I grew up in Munich and live in Hamburg now. I would object
         | that Hamburg isnt even close to the "Lokalpatriotismus"
         | (patriotism about your city?) which is highly rampant in
         | Munich. Aristocratic behavior is a thing in Hamburg but Munich?
         | It's my hometown so let me slander...
         | 
         | People from Munich REALLY celebrate that they are from Munich
         | and from kindergarten onwards a sense of snobility is distilled
         | into your soul.
         | 
         | "Helles" 0.5l+ is the only allowed beer and you have to meet a
         | "Trachten" quota (traditional clothing). The Lederhosn has to
         | come out at least 5x per year and dear god if it is a cheap
         | model below 300EUR which is already considered trash.
        
       | pchristensen wrote:
       | I was really hoping that this was about a grilled ground beef
       | sandwich opining on a German city :(
        
         | sib wrote:
         | I was extremely disappointed when I clicked through...
        
           | xeonmc wrote:
           | This makes me curious of contrasting perspectives between a
           | Hamburger and a Frankfurter.
        
         | water-data-dude wrote:
         | Who do you think has the most interesting time of it? People
         | from Hamburg, Lesbos, or Frankfurt?
         | 
         | Those are the only three I could think of, tricky to put
         | together a search query to find more.
        
           | fragmede wrote:
           | Dijon, Bologna, Cologne, Wien
        
             | gherkinnn wrote:
             | Berlin, Parma, Champagne, Fucking
        
               | ivanche wrote:
               | Cross out the last one, they changed the name to Fugging
        
       | lordnacho wrote:
       | How is it that Hamburg's football club (HSV) is not anywhere near
       | the level of Munich's? They are from similarly large cities, and
       | had somewhat comparable history until it diverged in recent
       | decades.
        
         | eschulz wrote:
         | Yes, they're in two comparably large and affluent German cities
         | (although each of these cities has numerous clubs), but when it
         | comes to sport club success I think city details is just one
         | factor. Ownership wealth and dedication, current management
         | issues, and recent luck are important factors.
         | 
         | For example, Boston has way more championships in US "big four"
         | sports than every US city except NYC, but there are 24 larger
         | cities in the country. There are just a ton of factors at play
         | (pun intended).
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._cities_by_number_...
        
         | johannes1234321 wrote:
         | Uli Hoeness as a manager professionalised German football
         | (soccer) a lot and early understoodnhowntonmake it a business
         | and ran the club like his personal business.
        
       | southernplaces7 wrote:
       | Have to admit, I first read, "munching from a hamburger's
       | perspective", expecting a satire about the trauma a burger goes
       | through while being eaten.
        
       | lqet wrote:
       | > You're close to places like Switzerland, Austria, and Italy,
       | which makes it easy to travel.
       | 
       | One thing I really like about living in southwestern Germany is
       | that I can hop onto a train at my local station at around 6am,
       | and - after changing trains 1 time - get out in Milano Centrale
       | at around 11am (until quite recently, there was even a direct
       | train). From Milano Centrale, it's 2 hours to Venice or the
       | Italian Riviera.
       | 
       | Paris is a 3 hour TGV trip from here. London is 5 hours, plus 1
       | hour transfer and checking into the Eurostar train at Paris Gare
       | du Nord.
       | 
       | Milan, Paris, and London are all quicker to reach by train from
       | here than Berlin.
        
         | est31 wrote:
         | It's hard to overstate how much southern Germany, Switzerland,
         | France, and northern Italy are profiting from the new alpine
         | tunnels being bored: Basis Brenner tunnel, Lyon-Turin tunnel,
         | and the Gotthard base tunnel. Last one already opened 10 years
         | ago, but it's still pretty recent when it comes to
         | infrastructure projects of that size.
         | 
         | As for inner-German train transport being slow... it's thanks
         | to a bunch of reasons, like
         | 
         | a) Germany having been divided in two until 30 years ago, so
         | railways to Berlin have not been the top priority. in fact, one
         | didn't really want to give russians, whose army mainly used
         | railway to transport, the infrastructure to invade west
         | Germany.
         | 
         | b) the German car industry is running the country and ofc they
         | want people to drive and not use DB, so investments went/are
         | going into the Autobahnen instead of the railways.
         | 
         | c) Germany both being multi-centered and shaped like a square.
         | France has the Paris star, UK has London, and Italy is multi
         | centered but it has this elongated shape, so south of the Po
         | valley the high speed railroads (roughly) follow the
         | coastlines.
        
           | neuronic wrote:
           | Don't forget that German highspeed rail (ICE) is not running
           | on a separate network of tracks like Shinkansen in Japan.
           | This and your point (c) make it very hard to manage in
           | comparison.
        
         | pjmlp wrote:
         | You get the same feeling from here I am located, easy weekend
         | trips between France, Belgium and Netherlands to chose from, a
         | couple of hours away.
         | 
         | Now if the getting all the train connections wasn't like going
         | to the casino playing roulette.
        
       | k__ wrote:
       | _" Besides Munich, I've also been to Berlin and Magdeburg, but
       | Munich gave me a very different impression."_
       | 
       | Hamburg and Munich are like San Francisco and Houston.
       | 
       | Sure, Munich is more progressive than the rest of Bavaria, but
       | it's still in Bavaria.
        
         | Freak_NL wrote:
         | Especially compared to Hamburg and Berlin, which,
         | comparatively, lean a lot more left politically speaking.
        
         | fxj wrote:
         | Hamburg is more conservative than Munich (I have lived in both
         | cities). It is more like Austin wehen you compare it to a city
         | in Texas. And Hamburg is in no way as hippy as San Francisco
         | was. The closest I would compare Hamburg to is Boston.
         | 
         | In the golden 70s Munich was a melting pot for musicians, gay
         | people, Hippies. They still have the nudist beach in the city
         | centre. Try to find something like that in the US.
        
           | ahartmetz wrote:
           | Still in the 70s? I thought the last time that Munich had
           | bohemians was between the two world wars. Hitler was one of
           | them. Yes, really. He formed his ideology in that
           | environment.
        
       | ulrischa wrote:
       | Servus from Munich: as you may know: Munich is now the most
       | unfriedly city in the world. This comes from a Mix of the
       | Grantler, Mia San Mia and Schickeria culture. The first is the
       | traditional grumpy nature of the typical Bavarian (especially
       | Oberbayern). Sone say this is because of the Fohn wind (warm, dry
       | downdraft that occurs on the leeward side of alps mountains)
       | which can cause headache and paired with a massive beer consume
       | even more. Mia San Mia and Schickeria is only typical in Munich:
       | Many people from all over Germany moved to Munich in the 60s and
       | 70s and earned money and build up an extreme snob culture seeing
       | theirself as better as the rural people in Bavaria.
       | https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/2048237/incredible-euro...
        
         | FL410 wrote:
         | FWIW as a (somewhat frequent) visitor this has not been my
         | experience at all, and in comparision to other European cities
         | I found it very warm and inviting.
        
           | bgnn wrote:
           | Depends on the European cities you are comparing it to. Any
           | sizable Dutch city would be much more warm and inviting in my
           | opinion. Compared to some French, Swiss, or German cities..
           | Yeah, Munich is definitely one of the better ones. Hamburg is
           | the best German city in this regard though.
        
         | anyfoo wrote:
         | I grew up in Munich, so I'm heavily biased, but my impression
         | is that people in Munich may appear somewhat cold/"grantlerig"
         | on the outside, but when you actually interact on them on a
         | personal level, they are extremely warm and welcoming. I've
         | lived in several places in the world, so I have some
         | comparison. Prague seemed similar in that regard to me: People
         | don't even smile at you in public, but damn are they a friendly
         | and inviting bunch once you get to hang out with them. I felt
         | right at home immediately.
        
       | fxj wrote:
       | Damn, he mentioned Andy's Krabblergarten. Now it will be overrun
       | with even more tourists. My serious advice: Don't go there!! The
       | Schnitzels are aweful and the Beergarden is ugly. ;-)
       | 
       | Too bad that Google, Apple, Intel now have offices here. This
       | drives the rents up. Gentrification already killed the gay
       | quarter. All luxury appartments and people now start complaining
       | that the vibes of the quarter are gone. Who would have thought...
        
         | FL410 wrote:
         | Yes, agreed, never go there! The schnitzel is small and
         | horrible! :)
        
       | DidYaWipe wrote:
       | From a hamburger's perspective, I'm sure Munich looks like
       | munchin'.
        
       | adamcharnock wrote:
       | I've been living in Munich since Feb, I've visited Hamburg
       | several times, and previously lived in London and (rural)
       | Portugal. (I'm British)
       | 
       | I'm really very surprised by some of the observations being made
       | here, just because they are very contrary to my experience.
       | Thoughts in no particular order:
       | 
       | - Hamburg's road systems took some inspiration from those of LA.
       | To me Hamburg seemed exceptionally road/car heavy. Munich in
       | comparison seems much more sane and European.
       | 
       | - The startup scene is great. I'm a member of the Werk1 co-
       | working space there, and it is a huge and friendly community.
       | 
       | - Munich drivers are really great with cyclists. I eBike
       | everywhere, and never have a had any problems with a car
       | endangering me. They are exceptionally good at giving way to
       | anyone in the cycle lines (bike, eBike, or scooter)
       | 
       | - For me it is a really very clean city.
       | 
       | - The English Garden (bigger the Manhattan's Central Park) is a
       | place of absolute magic in the summer. Floating down the river
       | through a forest in the middle of the city?! Amazing.
       | 
       | - People are indeed super friendly when you talk to them. They
       | don't do much needless smiling, but they are warm and friendly.
       | (I'm white and look fairly presentable, and I cannot rule out
       | that being a factor)
       | 
       | - You drive to the Alps in 1h ish. True, you cannot see them from
       | them from the city. But it not much time you can be at the top of
       | a ski resort.
       | 
       | - I think the comparison to Austin TX is very fair. Bavaria is
       | conservative, Munich is not.
       | 
       | - The U-Bahn is pretty reliable, the S-Bahn less so. I cycle or
       | e-scooter everywhere, so don't really notice (and even when it
       | rains it really isn't that bad, said as a Londoner).
       | 
       | - I _think_ there is more of a culture of having a stable job at
       | large companies, perhaps in Germany in general (vs the UK). And I
       | can see Munich feeling like  'a place people come to work' if you
       | hang out in those groups. But I think there is is more available
       | than just that.
        
       | ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
       | Never been to Munich, but went to Hamburg (and Lubeck) a number
       | of times, as we worked with a German company there.
       | 
       | One of the German managers was from East Germany, and was very
       | much a "Northern German."
       | 
       | We used to bait him, by talking about Bavarian stereotypes, like
       | steins and lederhosen.
       | 
       | He'd get cranky, and start going on about how "We're _Northern_
       | Germans... "
       | 
       | Hamburg is a pretty industrial city, and was firebombed flat, in
       | WWII, so most of the architecture is relatively new (like Tokyo).
       | 
       | Lubeck was really cool. The company we worked with, started in a
       | 1,000-year-old building.
        
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