[HN Gopher] US-backed Israeli company's spyware used to target E...
___________________________________________________________________
US-backed Israeli company's spyware used to target European
journalists
Author : 01-_-
Score : 420 points
Date : 2025-06-12 16:12 UTC (6 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (apnews.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (apnews.com)
| seydor wrote:
| Same as happened in greece a few years back against the leader of
| opposition and journalists using Predator
| breppp wrote:
| It's amazing that US and Israel are the only countries mentioned
| in the headline
|
| While the story itself is about Italy spying on a journalist in
| another EU country
|
| But I guess news sites needs them clicks
| kennywinker wrote:
| Headlines are written by the publisher not the author. They're
| written to maximize readership. The fact that spying happened
| in italy by italians is mostly only interesting to italians.
| The fact that the US backs an israeli company that sells spying
| tools is interesting to many more people. You can see the
| selling clicks, but because they're not twisting the truth or
| saying something misleading - in this case I mostly see getting
| info to the people who care about it.
| breppp wrote:
| However, the fact that companies sell offensive cyber warfare
| software to governments is not new, and that specific company
| isn't either.
|
| There's also nothing inherently wrong with selling
| intelligence tools to a western government, Italy is not Iran
| or Zambia. And fighting terror or crime using software is
| valid. The only thing that surprises me is that a western
| government might attack journalists, and what I'd like to
| know from this article was what was their motivation
| kennywinker wrote:
| Their motivation is they are fascists. Like not in an
| "anything I don't like is fascism" kinda way - literal
| fascists.
|
| If you'd like to know more about them, an article in the AP
| isn't the right place to find more. But it is a good way to
| let people know what the US is funding in the world.
| lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote:
| Your comment is about the US but their question about
| "motivation" was concerning Italy. As in, why is Italy
| spying on a journalist in a different EU country?
| kennywinker wrote:
| No my comment is about the italian gov being literal
| fascists. I wasn't bothering to comment on the US gov
| lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote:
| I see, my mistake. I think I just got confused by some of
| the other statements in your comments.
| neoromantique wrote:
| I think by them being Italian (hint) he meant 'fascist'
| in quite literal sense.
| chrisweekly wrote:
| Hmm, you seem to be implying Italians are more likely to
| be considered fascists than are Americans. Is that
| because of the historical connection to Mussolini?
| input_sh wrote:
| It's because the descendants of original fascists are
| currently ruling Italy. Including Alessandra Mussolini
| (AKA Benito Mussolini's granddaughter), who's not in the
| same party as Meloni, but is in coalition with Meloni's
| party.
| breppp wrote:
| That's a long shot from understanding "what the US is
| funding", because one company backed by a US VC sold the
| Italians something they misused.
|
| Concerning why this happened, you seem to know exactly
| why this happened. I for one am happy to be informed
| whether this is corruption, fascist crackdown, some
| unknown italian law that makes it all okay, actually the
| work of the previous government or maybe these
| journalists were actually baby kidnappers, whatever.
| That's pretty much why we need to read an article
| umanwizard wrote:
| What's your definition of fascist and what is your
| argument that Meloni's party is fascist?
|
| I'm not arguing or disagreeing with you -- genuinely
| curious about your perspective.
|
| The most damning bit in her Wikipedia article is this:
| "In 1992 Meloni joined the Youth Front, the youth wing of
| the Italian Social Movement (MSI), a neo-fascist
| political party founded in 1946 by followers of Italian
| fascism. She later became the national leader of Student
| Action, the student movement of the National Alliance
| (AN), a post-fascist party that became the MSI's legal
| successor in 1995 and moved towards national
| conservatism."
|
| But that does not necessarily mean she is herself a
| fascist, but rather that she was a member of various
| organizations that were originally founded by fascists
| then later moderated (roughly similar to the French
| FN/RN).
|
| On the other hand, lots of people you could fairly
| describe as fascist or far-right claim to not be so, so
| it's possible she genuinely is and the moderate turn of
| these parties is a sham. As someone who doesn't follow
| Italian politics I have no way of knowing which is the
| case.
| forgotTheLast wrote:
| > various organizations that were originally founded by
| fascists then later moderated (roughly similar to the
| French FN/RN).
|
| The reason those journalists were targeted is because
| they infiltrated one of those organizations and found
| that they were in fact still very much fascist behind
| closed doors (or at the very least racist and
| antisemitic).
| orwin wrote:
| Racist doesn't mean fascist, but you can't be fascist
| without being racist.
|
| As long as the executive doesn't control the judges, or
| insist on carrying a two speed justice, you can't really
| be fascist country.
|
| Ergo a fascist party is one which is at least
| nationalist, if not ethnonationalist, and insist on
| curbing the rule of law : X should be less equal than Y
| in front of the law (assuming the same social class).
| ipaddr wrote:
| You can be fascist without being racists. Not all
| countries contain only one genetic population.
| senderista wrote:
| Seconded. I remember a self-described "civic fascist" on
| Quora who explicitly disavowed racism. Mussolini's regime
| wasn't particularly racist except when it came to their
| African colonies (he thought antisemitism was dumb until
| Hitler forced him to adopt Nazi-like racial laws).
| umanwizard wrote:
| Racist and antisemitic are not the same thing as fascist
| (all three are awful, of course). Though racism is
| usually part of fascism, there are lots of other elements
| of fascism too.
|
| According to Wikipedia: "It is characterized by a
| dictatorial leader, centralized autocracy, militarism,
| forcible suppression of opposition, belief in a natural
| social hierarchy, subordination of individual interests
| for the perceived interest of the nation or race, and
| strong regimentation of society and the economy."
|
| Most of these elements are not directly related to
| antisemitism or racism.
| lurk2 wrote:
| > But that does not necessarily mean she is herself a
| fascist, but rather that she was a member of various
| organizations that were originally founded by fascists
| then later moderated (roughly similar to the French
| FN/RN).
|
| Inane.
| umanwizard wrote:
| Why?
| snickerdoodle12 wrote:
| It's just like how joining the hitler youth makes you a
| nazi
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| It's not a productive label when used like that though.
| propagandist wrote:
| Fighting crime, for example by spying on a WaPo columnist
| and then strangling him at a consular mission in Turkey and
| chopping up his body, to then dissolve it in acid.
|
| That's what this company's software is used for.
|
| Good luck to them shifting focus to the bad actors they
| choose to do business with.
| breppp wrote:
| That is not the same company, and as I said above, you
| expect something else from Italy compared to the Saudis
| Alive-in-2025 wrote:
| It's the same awful industry. This software is used to
| hurt journalists, to try to stop dissent. And kill people
| like the journalist Jamal Khashoggi.
| shagmin wrote:
| Not just same industry, but the same country of origin
| too actually.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| That was going to happen without any software based on
| the history of these theocracies.
| bee_rider wrote:
| If it was for no good reason, would that update your
| "nothing inherently wrong with selling intelligence tools
| to a western government?" I do think western governments
| are generally better, but spying on journalists is bad.
| breppp wrote:
| not yet, although I am curious why this specific
| technology is linked to so many scandals involving
| journalists. Is it simply because that journalists are
| interested in stories about journalists and that what
| makes the news, or a power corrupts scenario.
|
| I believe that similarly to phone tapping, this is a
| technology that in the wrong hands is dangerous, but it
| can be very effective against some threats that might
| make this worthwhile
|
| Western democracies have worked for a century after the
| invention of phone tapping, and even a few decades after
| inventing a much more dangerous technology, of massive
| government or corporate surveillance networks.
|
| Zero click exploit makes the news but it has no
| implication on most of the population, it's too
| expensive.
| aziaziazi wrote:
| > journalists are interested in stories about journalists
|
| > it has no implication on most of the population
|
| Journalistic content is still one of my main source of
| information that most of the population use to get
| informed, so my bet is many people do feel implicated
| somehow.
| analog31 wrote:
| Surveillance of journalists is a way to discourage
| journalism, because it threatens both the journalists and
| their sources.
| overfeed wrote:
| > However, the fact that companies sell offensive cyber
| warfare software to governments is not new
|
| Good thing the story is not about the companies or
| governments, but the journalists.
|
| The "this is not new" / "everyone knew about this"
| middlebrow dismissal adds nothing to any conversation, and
| falsely equates all hacking incidents, but the real story
| is about the clients, their motivations and the victims who
| are always different.
|
| > I'd like to know from this article was what was their
| motivation
|
| Wouldn't we all? Meloni's office had no comment, but the
| article gave enough breadcrumbs about the reporting of the
| victims that one can make an educated guess.
| GuinansEyebrows wrote:
| > There's also nothing inherently wrong with selling
| intelligence tools to a western government
|
| i _emphatically_ beg to differ with this statement
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| Spies have saved so many lives throughout history and
| they prevented nuclear Armageddon during the Cold War on
| many occasions. Therefore the more spies the better.
|
| Better spies than more covid research at wuhan.
| coldtea wrote:
| > _There 's also nothing inherently wrong with selling
| intelligence tools to a western government, Italy is not
| Iran or Zambia_
|
| It's not like Iran or Zambia precisely to the degree it
| doesn't use such tools.
| sim7c00 wrote:
| but friendly countries hacking friendies is also not new.
| so in your view then it should not be written at all?
|
| remember belgacom?
|
| western governments are also in the war of information and
| minds. if they wouldnt wage it, we'd already have lost.
|
| sadly, this results in this kind of weirdness. and its
| incredibly hard or impossible to find their true motives or
| intent. especially if for example an investigation didnt
| turn up what they needed, an so seems like a random hack on
| a random person.
|
| it doesnt happen only to journalists. but when they are
| targeted its easier discovered because they might expect it
| more and look for it more. and when it does, because its
| related to press, everyones 'freedom of press' button is
| tripped and they get offended, sad, angry, whatever the
| button releases.
| DSingularity wrote:
| An incredible self awareness for you to write "There's also
| nothing inherently wrong with selling intelligence tools to
| a western government, Italy is not Iran or Zambia".
|
| I wonder how Iran or Zambia feel about the west? The
| overthrow of their democracy. The colonial exploitations.
| Are those legit grievances in your eyes? Or are you a "take
| up the white mans burden" kind of person?
| breppp wrote:
| I don't know how Iran feels about the west, but I for one
| am not keen about them hanging homosexuals on cranes,
| cutting hands of thieves, raping protestors in prison or
| taking random european tourist number 300 hostage in
| order to make finland cave-in on something.
|
| You might think the above is morally equivalent with
| whatever the state of Italy is doing, but I believe some
| governments and some cultures are better than others. Not
| because they are superior humans, but because human
| organizations and actions can be compared one to another,
| and there is at least for me, places I'd rather live in,
| and places I wouldn't
| DSingularity wrote:
| Who said that? How is this style of discussion even
| productive?
|
| We can all go back and forth about which nations abuse
| their people the most. You can point to LGBT and someone
| can point to American prisoner counts. Why does it
| matter? Stay on topic?
| woodruffw wrote:
| I don't think you have to believe Western countries are
| morally blameless to think that Iran's use of spyware
| would probably have materially worse effects for whoever
| they spy on. It's clear to me at least that the West can
| both be blamed for the effects of colonialism _and_ that
| the victims of colonialism can do plenty of bad things on
| their own.
| DSingularity wrote:
| Nobody is disputing that at all. That's just a byproduct
| of zero-sum games and at least the fact that victims of
| abuse tend to grow into abusers themselves.
|
| The problem is the blanket statement which effectively
| becomes "the ordained group of humans can have these
| tools while the others we judge as less-than and
| prohibit". The more they talk the more they reveal about
| their views which are either outright racist or extremely
| disingenuous when it comes to obvious historical
| contexts.
| edanm wrote:
| If you're claiming that Iran's government is somehow
| morally equivalent to Italy's, you're massively wrong.
|
| It's not about "the white mans burden", whatever that
| means. It's about Iran's government not being
| democratically elected, being massively unpopular with
| its own populace that can't do anything about it cause
| it's not a democracy, enforcing religious laws on people
| that often don't want them, not respecting minorities.
| And oh, btw, investing billions of dollars in promoting
| terror all across the Middle East, with the stated goal
| of eradicating Israel (and, eventually, the US).
|
| So, I don't really care how Iran's rulers feel about the
| US - they're evil. If you can't recognize that, you've
| lost the plot.
| ipaddr wrote:
| You realize that US removed the democratically elected
| government in 1953 in CIA-led coup that overthrew the
| democratically elected Prime Minister Mohammad Mosaddegh.
| Then the US government kept the Shah in power. He
| repressed the population and led to the 1979 revolution.
|
| Who's the one evil again?
|
| Those countries in the middle east that US considers an
| ally are not democratically elected either and they
| enforce religious laws like not allowing woman to drive.
| They do not respect minorites and they invest in terror
| in the area too.
|
| Turn off the tv and learn about the history of topics you
| want to shoot your mouth off in public about before you
| make a fool of yourself.
| DSingularity wrote:
| Unfortunately I don't think he is capable of what you are
| asking him to do. Remember that the majority of the
| Israeli population think Israel hasnt gone far enough in
| Gaza. Yes that's after starvation and murdering over 30k
| women and children. On top of that most Israelis see no
| problem with the Nakba which is the origin of the problem
| as it displaced the majority of Palestinians turning them
| into scattered refugees who were robbed of their land and
| property.
|
| Such mindsets would never allow for achieving peace with
| neighbors through any strategy that isn't built around
| dominance through violence.
| ty6853 wrote:
| Killing them all off would achieve peace, though, since
| their other neighbors (or at least the ones that could
| prolong a violent war) seem to have no problem with it.
| It might be the most peaceful solution, though by no
| means am I implying I agree with it.
| NickC25 wrote:
| Who is "them"? You wish to kill off all of Palestine, all
| of Israel, or both?
| ty6853 wrote:
| I don't wish to kill off anyone, because I think
| individual rights trump peace.
|
| Based on the population over/under killing off all of
| Gaza seems to be the most peaceful solution. Israel would
| work but it has a bigger population, and only one side or
| the other would have to be eliminated to achieve gaza-
| israel peace in that conflict.
|
| Of course we don't have any real say in the matter.
| They're being starved to death as we speak, and once they
| all perish I don't think they'll be able to defend
| themselves or engage in hostilities.
| edanm wrote:
| I would greatly appreciate if you didn't just assume
| things about me with absolutely no reason for it.
|
| Or do you also want people to assume everything about
| _your_ views based on the average views of people in your
| country?
|
| > Such mindsets would never allow for achieving peace
| with neighbors through any strategy that isn't built
| around dominance through violence.
|
| Just for the record, Israel has managed to achieve peace
| with many of its historic enemies like Jordan and Egypt,
| and more recently the UAE and is (was) on the way to
| achieving relations with Saudi Arabia. The peace in Egypt
| included giving back land that is 4x the size of all of
| Israel.
| edanm wrote:
| I don't know why you think anything you said contradicts
| anything I said. I didn't say that allies of the US were
| morally superior.
|
| > Turn off the tv and learn about the history of topics
| you want to shoot your mouth off in public about before
| you make a fool of yourself.
|
| This kind of personal attack is beneath the level HN
| aspires to.
| amrocha wrote:
| You're in a thread arguing that it's ok for "western
| governments" to have cyber weapons but not Iran because
| Iran is morally inferior. If you don't believe that then
| admit it and apologize for the confusion. Don't try to
| move the goalposts.
|
| >This kind of personal attack is beneath the level HN
| aspires to
|
| Sophistry is also beneath that level.
| edanm wrote:
| > You're in a thread arguing that it's ok for "western
| governments" to have cyber weapons but not Iran because
| Iran is morally inferior.
|
| Yes, and the parent's answer to this was "allies of
| Western governments are also morally inferior". But I
| never said that allies of Western governments should have
| cyber weapons, nor did I make any claims on their moral
| status. Hence parent's comment not addressing anything I
| said.
|
| > Sophistry is also beneath that level.
|
| I think my argument was clear, but just to reiterate so
| you don't think I'm engaging in sophistry:
|
| I think Iran's government is morally inferior to Italy's
| government and to other Western governments, under my
| value system (a standard Western value system). I think
| this is blindingly obvious to everyone.
|
| Therefore I think it's _worse_ for Iran to possess cyber
| weapons than for Western Governments to possess cyber
| weapons.
| keybored wrote:
| > Yes, and the parent's answer to this was "allies of
| Western governments are also morally inferior". But I
| never said that allies of Western governments should have
| cyber weapons, nor did I make any claims on their moral
| status. Hence parent's comment not addressing anything I
| said.
|
| First they said that the West did a coup against the
| Iranian government. Hence according to them they are not
| morally superior (or rather: "Who's the evil one again").
| That directly addresses your claim.
|
| Then they also went into the bonus topic of arguing that
| the US doesn't even make their allies based on who is
| "moral", further but more indirectly undermining the
| shining city on the hill argument.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| A datapoint does not prove the point though.
| keybored wrote:
| The West supported or instigated (which was it?) a coup
| against the Iranian government in order to install the
| authoritarian Shah. When he was overthrown in a
| revolution in 1979 and replaced with a relatively
| authoritarian theocratic regime the West/US didn't like
| it. It didn't like it because the revolution was done on
| behalf of _some subset of_ Iranians; it was no longer a
| Western puppet. That's why the US is anti-Iran. End of.
| NickC25 wrote:
| > And oh, btw, investing billions of dollars in promoting
| terror all across the Middle East,
|
| Who are we talking about again? I think you could say
| that statement is true for the US, UK, Iran, Israel,
| Russia, the list goes on...
|
| Ain't no saints in the middle east.
| tehjoker wrote:
| Actually, there is a lot wrong with selling intelligence
| tools to western governments. They are doing some of the
| most evil shit in the world and are complicit in genocide
| at the moment.
|
| No one should be buying Israeli consumer goods, let alone
| weapons or security tools as part of Boycotts, Divestment,
| and Sanctions.
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| Everyone is complicit in a globalized world. China kills
| Ukrainians daily with their tech.
| FpUser wrote:
| >"There's also nothing inherently wrong with selling
| intelligence tools to a western government"
|
| The king can do no wrong. What a pinnacle of arrogance.
|
| >"The only thing that surprises me is that a western
| government might attack journalists"
|
| Welcome to a real world
| Xelbair wrote:
| are you... serious?
|
| no I'm genuinely curious - because no matter who you sell
| it to it will be used against its own populace - look at
| bloody PRISM(mass data collection of internet traffic in US
| by NSA in case you weren't aware), Echelon(older project
| targeted at radio transmissions), 5eyes(US, UK, AUS, NZ, CN
| asking each other to spy on their own citizens as a
| loophole) .. or any other scandal in EU when it leaked that
| such spyware was used against journalists investigating
| government corruption. Or in Mexico, or anywhere else.
|
| How you are surprised that "western government" might
| attack journalists when there has been proof of them doing
| that for years?!
| keybored wrote:
| > There's also nothing inherently wrong with selling
| intelligence tools to a western government, Italy is not
| Iran or Zambia.
|
| Yes, because Western ones are the good governments (looking
| at Meloni).
|
| > And fighting terror or crime using software is valid. The
| only thing that surprises me is that a western government
| might attack journalists, and what I'd like to know from
| this article was what was their motivation
|
| Huh, it's surprising that Western governments would spy on
| journalists. But they are the good guys? What was their
| motivation.
| Alive-in-2025 wrote:
| It is absolutely wrong to sell that software. It is mostly
| used to harass journalists and people advocating against
| dictatorial regimes. That is why there are endless
| headlines and articles about it being used against orgs
| like greenpeace, or people criticizing a govt. The claim
| was always we want to be able to use it against terrorists
| or real criminals - but at the least we know it is very
| frequently used to try to stop critics of governments.
|
| It is immoral. I'd never hire someone who worked on such
| software or for one of those firms. We should have a
| movement that declares this.
| nashashmi wrote:
| The spy companies sells to non western companies also like
| UAE and Saudi Arabia, with the approval of Israeli
| government.
|
| And Israeli company selling software to spy on journalist
| tells you everything you need to know about the whole
| "western" concept. It's a mirage of morality.
| guelo wrote:
| > fighting terror or crime using software is valid
|
| Only if you want to live in an Israeli-type society where a
| certain group is inherently suspicious and have no rights.
| Americans should be repulsed by that.
|
| That's why I don't buy the judea-christian propaganda about
| how our values are the same. The western values are justice
| and due process and "all men are created equal", zionist
| values are "we are god's chosen", "war on terrorism" with
| no due process, invoking religous amalek to commit
| genocide. Zionist values have been forced onto us for the
| last 30 years but they don't derive from western
| enlightenment philosophy.
| deepsun wrote:
| It's like producing weapons versus using them. Just instead
| of "weapons" we have "spyware tools".
| andsoitis wrote:
| > They're written to maximize readership.
|
| And to shape narrative!
| adrian_b wrote:
| TFA says that this story is relevant for USA because there
| exists an executive order which "prohibits federal government
| departments and agencies from acquiring commercial spyware
| that has been misused by foreign governments" and at this
| moment there are contracts between Paragon and DHS and other
| US government institutions.
|
| So, in theory, these contracts with Paragon should be
| canceled, unless Trump decides to repeal that executive
| order, because it is a remnant of the previous
| administration.
| croes wrote:
| Most of the time the country of the creator is named if it's
| about spyware.
|
| The misuse of such tools outweighs the legitimate use cases, so
| people want to know who is so reckless to sell these programs
| breppp wrote:
| I don't understand what's the difference if Italy develops
| its own or buys it from somewhere else.
|
| Comparably, phone tapping equipment is being sold world wide
| for almost a century and is used similarly
|
| The fact that some countries that gets these tools starts
| listening to journalists is concerning, but at least I want
| to believe it happens less in functioning countries
|
| But I don't see any issue with taking remote control of a
| drug dealer, terrorist or mafia phone
| dylan604 wrote:
| a functioning country can become dysfunctional with one
| election
| croes wrote:
| Some spyware like Pegasus is notorious.
|
| It's always shady if someone uses it because of its high
| misuse potential.
|
| It's the computer equivalent of a ABC weapon.
| Xelbair wrote:
| >I don't understand what's the difference if Italy develops
| its own or buys it from somewhere else.
|
| because the one who sold it quite likely also gets a hold
| of all information captured by it's user.
|
| Check your other posts for examples of ongoing mass public
| surveillance programs.
| edanm wrote:
| > The misuse of such tools outweighs the legitimate use
| cases, so people want to know who is so reckless to sell
| these programs
|
| Do you have any evidence of this?
|
| Cause my guess is the misuse is the stuff you hear about
| because it eventually makes the news. But the thousands or
| millions of legitimate use cases in which it prevented terror
| attacks or just, y'know, helped solved crimes, are just
| routine and don't get a mention.
| Xelbair wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PRISM
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON
|
| 5eyes(spying agreement between US, UK, CAN, NZ, AU)
| utilizing a loophole to spy on each other's citizens.
|
| Tons of cases with PEGASUS being used to target activists
| and journalists, usually ones investigating government
| corruption(EU, Mexico from top of my head).
|
| You know what would also help solve crimes? if every action
| that everyone did was always observed and recorded. Would
| you be willing to live in such world? i would rather not.
| pluc wrote:
| When you hear an art piece was stolen from a museum, do you
| ever hear about the buyer?
|
| No, you hear about where it was, who stole it and where it was
| found.
| CGMthrowaway wrote:
| Per the article there isn't actually any hard evidence that
| Italy was spying on this journalist. In fact the relevant
| Italian parliamentary oversight committee (COPASIR)
| investigated and said while there were activists surveilled by
| Italy, legally and with government authorization, a journalist
| (Cancellato) specifically was not.
| tguvot wrote:
| It's amazing that US and Israel are the only countries
| mentioned in the headline
|
| While the story itself is about Italy spying on a journalist
| in another EU country
|
| But I guess news sites needs them clicks
| SkiFire13 wrote:
| However at the same time Paragon offered the Italian
| Intelligence a way to determine whether their software was
| used against the journalist, but they rejected the offer and
| that feels very suspicious.
| gausswho wrote:
| Why would COPASIR accept such an offer. Third party
| forensics shows the fox got in the hen house. You wanna let
| the fox back in just to confess?
| namuol wrote:
| Are arms dealers immune from responsibility, in your view?
| keybored wrote:
| The article itself contains a lot of text about the company.
| There isn't much about Italy.
| fortran77 wrote:
| Hacker News is full of people who spread terrorist propaganda
| about the United States and its allies. I am grateful for this
| technology. The West and its allies need to fight terrorism.
| thephyber wrote:
| (1) Headlines are necessarily lossy due to the limited
| character count.
|
| (2) It says US-backed, which suggests to me that US investors
| helped fund it.
|
| (3) It says Israeli tech, which rhymes with 2 previous spyware
| companies which have been torn to shreds in the public media
| and US courts for their lack of controls/oversight of how their
| customers used their software (violating the spyware vendor's
| policies, the Israeli government export license, and the ToS of
| the software the spyware software exploited).
|
| (4) the US-backed + "targeted a journalist" combined is an
| attack on the foundation of US as a country (on the assumption
| that the journalist wasn't engaging in something like
| terrorism).
|
| I'm bored by people who attack headlines. We all know that they
| aren't accurate and can't be 100% descriptive. And it's not
| even clear that you could be appeased by any other formulation
| of the headline.
| sailfast wrote:
| Collections software used in collections operation by customer.
|
| Water is wet.
|
| What am I missing here?
|
| Also concur with other comments about the actual governments not
| being mentioned in the headline.
| kennywinker wrote:
| Collections? Like debt collection? Where are you getting that?
|
| Or are you calling gov spyware on journalists phones normal?
| CapricornNoble wrote:
| >Collections? Like debt collection? Where are you getting
| that?
|
| It's a term used in the military/national security circles
| for intelligence gathering.
|
| https://www.intelligence.gov/careers/explore-
| careers/intelli...
|
| https://www.esd.whs.mil/Portals/54/Documents/DD/issuances/do.
| ..
| burkaman wrote:
| You are missing that facts are not universally known, and it is
| normal and good for news organizations to provide ongoing
| coverage of stories their readers might care about. Many people
| who read this article will have never heard of governments
| spying on domestic journalists, or Italy doing that, or the
| type of software used, or the US funding that software, or some
| combination of these things.
| ChrisArchitect wrote:
| Source: https://citizenlab.ca/2025/06/first-forensic-
| confirmation-of...
| coliveira wrote:
| Just a small part of the biggest spy network ever invented, which
| is woven into practically all software and tech infrastructure we
| use in the West and backed by large corporations with ties to
| that small country.
| v5v3 wrote:
| Yes.
|
| Surprised they allowed a zero click exploit to be exposed for
| what appears to be low value targets.
| ThinkBeat wrote:
| That means they have a big bin of zero click exploit ready
| for use. This one was probably getting old so someone finding
| it wouldn't mean much.
| yosefk wrote:
| Really? Please do tell more, links will be appreciated. I love
| learning how very powerful my small country is!
| dttze wrote:
| 8200 and Mossad are both the best, baddest, most wide
| reaching network that can kill any muslim err terrorist that
| challenges Israel. But also they are just wittle guys that
| are in a small country that can't be powerful cause they are
| so small right guys?
| edanm wrote:
| Israel is powerful, but also has powerful enemies. That's
| entirely consistent and happens to be entirely true.
|
| And yes, Israel is a _tiny_ country, both compared to
| almost all its enemies, and just objectively - it 's one of
| the smallest countries in the world.
| msgodel wrote:
| I think people would care a lot less if we didn't end up
| involved so often.
| dttze wrote:
| I was calling out the parent for acting with incredulity
| to someone saying that Israel has a vast spy network. One
| that is routinely bragged about in Israel by Israelis.
| edanm wrote:
| You're right, but the parent wasn't saying Israel has a
| vast spy network, they said Israel has the "biggest spy
| network ever invented, which is woven into practically
| all software and tech infrastructure we use in the West
| [...]".
|
| That goes far beyond the realm of reality and parent is
| right to ridicule it.
|
| Israel has (presumably) a pretty great spy network, but
| mostly around its immediate enemies. It's certainly much
| smaller than many other countries' spy networks, I
| imagine.
| myth_drannon wrote:
| Didn't you know you also have space lasers? Anyone can be
| instantly vaporized at any point on Earth.
|
| A joke from 1930's Nazi Germany:
|
| "Two Jews are sitting on a bench in Nazi Germany. One of them
| is reading the local Yiddish newspaper. The other is reading
| Der Sturmer, a Nazi propaganda paper. The former says to the
| latter, "Why on earth would you read that antisemitic drek?"
| The other replies, "Well, when I read the local paper, we are
| a poor and battered people who suffer in ghettos, pogroms,
| and all manner of tragedies. But when I read Der Sturmer, we
| run the banks, the governments, the whole world - life is
| great!" "
|
| I got a feeling things are going to get really ugly soon,
| dejavu germany in 1930 but with more powerful propaganda
| tools.
| dji4321234 wrote:
| Western state agencies and mid-tier bootleg spyware vendors are
| neutral at best and antagonists overall. At best, bootleg
| spyware vendors drop exploits which agencies can reverse and
| use for their own purposes. But in general, these vendors bring
| unwanted attention and burn exploits which the state agencies
| would like to use. These are not part of a global conspiracy,
| they are competing groups with the same goals.
| hersko wrote:
| So if a company in country A sells military arms to country B,
| country B is now part of country A's military network. Is that
| how this works now?
| giraffe_lady wrote:
| It certainly has some explanatory power so depending on what
| you're trying to understand about these hypothetical
| entities, yes.
| westpfelia wrote:
| Works now? Thats how a customer base works.
| pessimizer wrote:
| I have no idea what you're trying to say. The network of
| vendors to the military is part of the military network.
| resource_waste wrote:
| Oh look Apple devices were hacked _again_. Security through
| obscurity isnt really working out. Their big cash apparently isnt
| enough.
|
| I have sensitive data on my phone that I must carry around, and
| there is no way I'd ever keep it on an iphone. 'Pegasus' was the
| moment corporations and governments should have banned iphones
| for their terrible security.
| chc4 wrote:
| Are you somehow under the impression that Android devices
| aren't hacked as well?
| worik wrote:
| Of course Android phones are hacked as well
|
| But a hack on my Andriod device might, or might not, work on
| your Android device
|
| Not so much iPhones. Some difference between versions, but
| pretty much a monoculture
| input_sh wrote:
| Pegasus exploited both iOS and Android, not just iOS.
| jmyeet wrote:
| There is now a rich history in outsourcing activities that would
| otherwise be illegal to other countries where it is legal. For
| example, the CIA's extreme rendition [1], knowingly sending
| prisoners to countries to be tortured and/or executed. This is
| how such countries make themselves useful to American empire.
|
| Likewise, restrictions on the NSA spying on American citizens,
| for example, are bypassed by outsourcing that spying to, say,
| other Five Eyes countries.
|
| Israel's role in this hacking phones of politicians, dissidents
| and now journalists on the behalf of the US and its allies,
| including Saudi Arabia [2].
|
| The Israeli company NSO Group was sued by WhatsApp for their use
| of Pegasus [3], something Israel tried to intervene to block [4].
|
| I honestly don't know how people work on things like Pegasus
| knowing it's being used to target and kill journalists and
| politicians.
|
| [1]:
| https://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/rendition701/upda...
|
| [2]:
| https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/17/world/middleeast/israel-s...
|
| [3]: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c77n76kzmz4o
|
| [4]: https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/07/israels-
| attem...
| v5v3 wrote:
| "I honestly don't know how people work on things like Pegasus
| knowing it's being used to target and kill journalists and
| politicians."
|
| You can make many people do pretty much anything under orders,
| and even more by rewarding them.
|
| "I was just putting food on the table for my family..."
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
| hersko wrote:
| >I honestly don't know how people work on things like Pegasus
| knowing it's being used to target and kill journalists and
| politicians.
|
| Is that all it's being used for? I can easily see situations
| where its use is saving lives, in which case it would be easy
| to justify working on.
| bilalq wrote:
| Chomsky described these countries as "mercenary states". One of
| his books, Understanding Power, dives into the topic quite a
| bit.
| jplrssn wrote:
| > Ciro Pellegrino, who heads the Naples newsroom of an
| investigative news outlet called Fanpage.it, received a notice on
| April 29 that his iPhone had been targeted. Last year, Fanpage
| secretly infiltrated the youth wing of Meloni's Brothers of Italy
| party and filmed some of them making fascist and racist remarks.
|
| It's never a good look going after journalists, but this seems
| especially petty.
| burkaman wrote:
| Attending a political party's events and reporting what they
| say and do is petty?
| jplrssn wrote:
| Deploying spyware against journalists in retaliation for
| their exposing racism in the governing party's youth wing is
| petty.
| burkaman wrote:
| Sorry I misunderstood, I thought you were saying Fanpage's
| actions were petty.
| bgwalter wrote:
| Thanks Cloudflare for blocking apnews.com! Thanks LLM scrapers
| that ruin the Internet and make that necessary!
| xeromal wrote:
| Buzzword Bingo
| tguvot wrote:
| waay down, near the end of the article: "Paragon referred
| questions to a statement it gave to Israeli newspaper Haaretz, in
| which the company said that it stopped providing spyware to Italy
| after the government declined its offer to help investigate
| Cancellato's case. "
| ethagnawl wrote:
| How does the exploit work, though? The article does some real
| handwaving around "now the device is yours and now it's not".
| They don't need to go too deep but isn't anyone reading that far
| into the article going to be curious?
| input_sh wrote:
| You're not gonna find technical details in an AP article of all
| places.
|
| You will find it in CitizenLab's report:
| https://citizenlab.ca/2025/06/first-forensic-confirmation-of...
| jaoane wrote:
| The European Commission is always very concerned about what
| right-wing European governments do. When will they have something
| to say about everything happening in Spain for instance?
| LatteLazy wrote:
| I feel like anyone serious about doing actual journalism needs to
| start with a decent Cyber Security 101 course. Does anyone know
| of one?
| sva_ wrote:
| I mean what can you feasibly do against these zero-click
| exploits? There's only really two things you can do:
|
| 1. keep your phone's identifiers secret, as they must target
| the devices in some way (like phone number/email/whatever)
|
| or
|
| 2. don't own a phone
| haswell wrote:
| I'm curious to know how many successfully targeted
| individuals were using features like Apple's Lockdown Mode.
| _vere wrote:
| Stuff like this will just keep happening unless a major
| jurisdiction goes after these digital mercinaries. The fact that
| we ignore all laws for no reason other than "our agencies really
| like spying on people" is laughable. Literally crime as a
| service, sanctioned by most governments. Should not be surprising
| that such criminal organizations use their tools to spy on people
| who don't deserve it.
| gtsop wrote:
| Ignore all laws?? EU has officially recognized the utility of
| these criminal agencies. Of course under the all-time-classic
| umbrella of "legitimate use for law enforcement" which in
| common means "go ahead and use it freely, if you get caught
| we'll give you a slap on the wrist"
| jokoon wrote:
| Who cares at this point?
|
| If you're a journalist and you don't have basic OPSEC for cyber
| stuff, there is no point in doing sensitive work.
|
| Nobody is really accountable for those kind of things anyway.
| worik wrote:
| I care
|
| I care a lot
| pkkkzip wrote:
| This type of comment I find very peculiar, it attempts to
| normalize the intimidation and censorship of truths when we
| know that isn't the consensus nor desired.
|
| Overall, very disappointing to come on HN and find any thread
| critical of this one country results in mass flagging,
| censorship and hasbara _EVERY SINGLE TIME_
| gtsop wrote:
| > , it attempts to normalize the intimidation and censorship
| of truths
|
| Very muddying statement. The normalization of intimidation
| and censorship has already happened by those in power, a
| comment can only acknowledge the reality of it.
|
| > when we know that isn't the consensus nor desired.
|
| by who? Crearly a lot of very powerful people desire it very
| very much.
| tptacek wrote:
| This is my irritating reminder that there is a whole marketplace
| of implant/CNE products, most of which you have never heard of,
| produced in basically every jurisdiction in the world.
|
| It used to be NSO Group that got all the press, now it's Paragon,
| and I think it's all for the good that the spotlight gets shone
| on these companies, but do keep in mind that this is not an
| "Israeli" phenomenon. There are American companies selling
| tooling that is more effective than "Graphite"; they're just more
| careful about publicity. Wherever it is you live that you feel is
| morally superior to America and Israel on commercialized CNE,
| you're likely to end up surprised.
| dagav wrote:
| Israeli company's gun used to target LA based gangsters...
| nevermind who bought it and who's pulling the trigger though.
| pkkkzip wrote:
| I do wonder with all the criticisms and faults EU and West
| points out in other parts of the world, this one country gets a
| complete pass that overrides and contradicts every single value
| that they supposedly stand for at the risk of appearing like
| they have no value or morals.
|
| The rest of the world is getting tired of this double standard.
| It's justified when we do it and it's a crime if others do it.
| It's no wonder the youth and global opinions have turned sour.
| amarcheschi wrote:
| To give more context copy pasting my comment from a similar
| thread
|
| I would like to add that Paragon disagrees with COPASIR: (article
| in italian) https://www.fanpage.it/politica/paragon-smentisce-il-
| copasir... They offered to give some information about who was
| surveilled by whom, but not surprisingly the Italian government
| refused (it was used by 2 secret service agencies in italy). At
| this point, Paragon stopped giving its access to Italian agencies
| (spying on journalists is forbidden by Paragon'S tos). COPASIR
| say they are the ones who stopped the commercial relationships
| though, so it is clear as water that at least one party isn't
| telling the truth
| bilbo0s wrote:
| Could also be that both are being untruthful. Lincoln let us
| know a long time ago, there are times when "both _may_ be, but
| one _must_ be ". Personally, I think there may even be times
| when both parties are being truthful. ie - you're being played
| by a third party.
|
| I'd imagine this is the sort of fallout when things go sideways
| and there is not the requisite level of trust on both sides to
| definitively run down root causes.
|
| They both may have simply cut each other off. Since there is no
| definitive way of knowing the other side is being truthful.
| woodpanel wrote:
| Why was it leaked, by whom and why now? That all victims of
| paragon were notified by whatsApp or Apple is highly unlikely
| IMO. Or at least less likely than the possibility of Israeli
| circles or paragon itself being the origin of the leak.
| bdbenton5255 wrote:
| Google and Microsoft use AI tools to help "Israel" identify
| civilians as combatants to murder them. They use humanitarian aid
| points to target crowds of starving people and simply fire into
| them to maximize civilians murdered.
|
| The same tech is being introduced into the USA through Palantir.
| If you oppose their massacre of innocent children, you can be
| targeted by the state like a Palestinian. Coming from the
| financial services industry, in which all the top institutions
| are zionist, Silicon Valley really is no different due to its MIC
| connections.
|
| It is absolutely accurate and objectively truthful to point out
| that the leading institutions of finance, technology, media,
| academia, and government all have a strong zionist bias that
| censors and excludes opposition.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2025-06-12 23:00 UTC)