[HN Gopher] Why Koreans ask what year you were born
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Why Koreans ask what year you were born
Author : bryanhogan
Score : 178 points
Date : 2025-06-11 06:53 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (bryanhogan.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (bryanhogan.com)
| gnabgib wrote:
| (2024) But also:
|
| _South Koreans become younger overnight after country scraps
| 'Korean age'_ (2 years ago)
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36502797
|
| _The end of the tricky 'Korean age'_ (3 years ago)
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33907571
| 9dev wrote:
| Those Korean kids born on December 31st must be the kings and
| queens of their peer group when they become eligible to buy
| alcohol two years ahead of the others!
| benediktwerner wrote:
| As far as I understand, they would primarily be in the same
| peer group as all other people with their Korean age.
| eloisant wrote:
| Not really because everyone starts at one, so at most it's one
| year younger those born on Jan 1st.
|
| Also their peer group usually being people born the same year,
| everyone gets to drink at the exact same time (unlike in other
| countries where everyone reach drinking age at their birthday).
| netsharc wrote:
| A friend (not Korean) said on his 29th birthday that he's
| starting his 30th year of life. It was an interesting
| perspective, because in general we celebrate our nth birthday
| after completing n years of life.
| setopt wrote:
| Personally I prefer to round 29 years 6 months up to <<I'm now
| 30 years old>>. As you would expect to happen if you run
| round(29.5). For some reason, most cultures settled on either
| floor(age) or ceil(age).
| alexey-salmin wrote:
| Which cultures settled on ceil(age)?
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| The traditional system in China and its surroundings, Xu
| Sui , is that you're born at the age of 1 and your age
| increases on the new year.
| setopt wrote:
| As the sibling comment mentioned, I was thinking of East
| Asian countries.
|
| There's another difference in that age++ there happens on
| Chinese New Year and not your own birthday, but that's an
| orthogonal point to the rounding, I think.
| bravesoul2 wrote:
| Funny how your birth day is not a birthday
| whstl wrote:
| You wouldn't remember the party anyway
| bravesoul2 wrote:
| Same with 12 months after birth
| mkl wrote:
| It's definitely a birthday, hence the name. It's the day you
| turn 0.
| netsharc wrote:
| It's a definition that could add 1 to everyone's birthday
| celebrations. A baby born on the 15th of June 2024 could be
| celebrating its 2nd birth day in a few days. Or well the
| family would. They'd celebrate the birth, and why not count
| that as a "birthday celebration".. Ha.
|
| Curiously I guess most of us celebrate the number of years
| completed.
| 1718627440 wrote:
| They would be celebrating their first anniversary.
| macintux wrote:
| This pops a lot with annual celebrations. I attended a
| commencement for my niece several years ago, and a
| speaker referred to it as the 100th annual commencement
| while a brochure referred to it as the 100th anniversary.
| Pick one.
| Muromec wrote:
| Seventh hour is everything between 6:01 and 6:59, yes.
| srean wrote:
| Yes.
|
| That is why half open sets, half open intervals, are
| convenient.
|
| If a bus leaves every 10 minutes starting at 1 PM, how many
| buses leave per hour ? Do we include the 2PM bus in the first
| hour ?
|
| It helps to cover the space by non-overlapping equal
| intervals.
|
| Shows up in 0 indexed for loops as well i < n
| BenjiWiebe wrote:
| Everything between 6 and 7, right? ;)
| alexey-salmin wrote:
| > in general we celebrate our nth birthday after completing n
| years of life.
|
| Well it's literally like you say: your friend will "celebrate
| his 30th birthday after completing 30 years of life". If the
| 30th birthday happens after 30 years of life, then the 30th
| year of life happens before the 30th birthday.
| johannes1234321 wrote:
| Well my day of birth isn't my 1st birthday ... it is somewhat
| messed up.
| kijin wrote:
| According to a traditional East Asian world view, your life is
| influenced by the powers that govern each unit of time -- hour,
| day, month, year -- that you pass through.
|
| Under this system, the number of distinct powers that you were
| influenced by is more important than the exact number of days
| or years that you spent on this planet. Korean culture is still
| saturated with this stuff. You can DM a shaman your date of
| birth, and they'll use this kind of system to tell your
| fortunes.
| extraduder_ire wrote:
| Starting from one is more accurate in a pedantic kind of way if
| you're counting how long you've been alive. Since the average
| human pregnancy is about 40 weeks.
| bambax wrote:
| > _The younger person also addresses the older person, usually
| with a title or another word that fits their relationship, but
| not their name. Only the older person addresses the younger one
| with their name. (There can be more nuance.)_
|
| I love this. I'm an old French guy and still can't quite accept
| when srangers in an email (or a machine, a system, a web form)
| adress me using my first name.
|
| Being "on a first name basis" still has meaning for me -- or it
| would, if it had for anyone else, which clearly is absolutely not
| the case anymore.
| allendoerfer wrote:
| Cultural imperialism.
| myst wrote:
| The meaning was never there in the first place, you just were
| taught that it is there. Adapt.
| lmm wrote:
| All language is socially constructed. It's still annoying
| when people try to change the meanings of words.
| BDPW wrote:
| That's literally all language.
| benediktwerner wrote:
| Interesting, as a German (which also has a similar system), I
| am the complete opposite, I find it super irritating when
| people address me by my last name. And the worst part is having
| to figure out how to address others, especially people you've
| known for a while but aren't really close to, e.g. say long-
| time neighbors I rarely meet.
|
| Luckily, in the IT industry, it's common to just use first
| names with everybody.
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| It's quite common, even the norm these days, to address
| people by their first names in professional settings, among
| colleagues.
|
| The thing is that this is also becoming/has become the norm
| when you get correspondance from strangers when the standard
| etiquette is to use title + surname, as in all European
| countries, I suppose.
|
| Now, I think when people address you by your surname only,
| either orally or in writing, it _is_ irritating.
| ncruces wrote:
| Well, I personally find title + surname the worst; it's
| obnoxious and elitist; my (first) name isn't "engineer". I
| can live with it, though. I just kinda hate people who
| demand it of others.
|
| So, clearly, you can't please everybody.
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| By title I mean "Mister", etc. Perhaps "Engineer" is a
| German thing ;)
| ncruces wrote:
| And then you must know (if this is a system: _store_ )
| the person's preferred gender, and in some cultures
| marital status.
| fmbb wrote:
| Not all European countries. We phased the title and surname
| addressing out during the 70s here in Sweden:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du-reformen
|
| Personally I get annoyed only if a sales person addresses
| me by first name. There is no other setting where I would
| prefer a stranger to address me using my full name, unless
| we're in some context where there are dozens or hundreds of
| strangers so one can not expect my name is unique.
| bryanhogan wrote:
| I appreciate that too at my former university in Germany,
| it's kinda "very modern" and people always use their first
| names for everything, professors and students alike. But it
| gets complicated when emailing professors that are only
| losely related to the uni.
| sumanthvepa wrote:
| It's interesting. My closest friends use my last name, while
| everyone else uses my first name at work. Apparently it was a
| hangover from the custom at old British public schools that
| some old Indian schools retained into the 70s/80s. I sort of
| like it.
| Tor3 wrote:
| Same here, but the reason is simple - there was a bunch of
| people with the same first name in my class (1st grade). So
| we all went by our last name. And, as those still are close
| friends of mine, after all these decades, they (and
| everyone else I know from that time) use my last name when
| addressing me. And other people sometimes pick it up and
| use it too..
| dcminter wrote:
| I went to a British private school (which we also call
| "public schools" to annoy Americans) and it was certainly
| still hanging on there into the 80s.
|
| My brother attended the same school where we briefly
| overlapped so I was by default "Minter" and when the
| distinction was needed I was "Minter Minor" and he would
| have been "Minter Major".
|
| Like many things it doesn't make much sense in retrospect.
|
| Edit: People do still often call me "Mister Minter" where
| I'd expect them to use my first name, but I think they just
| like the alliteration. It's not old schoolfriends doing it.
| Muromec wrote:
| Last name address is when things get real. Government and
| divorse lawyers real. Time to sober up and answer carefully.
|
| Not a good feeling, when people do it. The only thing worse
| is name + patronymic. That could never be good news.
| varjag wrote:
| This is remarkable because from my outsider glimpse German
| culture puts an emphasis on formality and credentials. If
| someone has a signature like "Dr. Ing. Prof. Anselm Schultz"
| am sure not opening my email with "Hi Anselm".
| tauchunfall wrote:
| It changed a lot in the last 25 years. But it can depend
| from place to place. One of my friends has a Master of
| Engineering and he was a bit surprised when somebody in
| Austria addressed him with "Oh, Herr Ingenieur!"
| smartmic wrote:
| Austria is special. Using an academic title is customary,
| and job titles are still common. Many foreigners think
| Austria and Germany are similar in terms of culture, but
| there are notable differences between the two countries
| that can be traced back to their history. I have an
| Austrian mother and a German father, so I experienced
| both cultures.
| tauchunfall wrote:
| >I find it super irritating when people address me by my last
| name.
|
| Me too. There are still German companies where coworkers
| address others with Herr or Frau followed by their last name.
|
| I find it also interesting how people that learn German
| understand the difference between the "you" in formal ("sie")
| and informal ("du") version, but often don't understand in
| which context du use them. In most cases you can use the
| informal "du" nowadays, especially when you are out with
| somebody for a beer.
|
| After elementary school we had this interesting shift form
| addressing the other children with first name to addressing
| them with last name. We were circa 11 years old.
| smartmic wrote:
| It's a generational thing. There has definitely been a
| change in recent years, especially the younger generation
| can no longer do much with the formal "Sie", but of course
| they know it. I am 46 years old and have grown up with and
| been familiar with the "Du/Sie" dichotomy from the very
| beginning. It also has many advantages and offers clear
| relationships: There is no ambiguity as to which pronouns I
| use to address someone, older people and superiors always
| use "Sie". With younger people/peers of the same age, you
| can quickly agree on a "Du". These days, it's unclear to me
| who I can address as "Du". I'm a friend of clarifying this
| before starting, but it's always a meta conversation, which
| can hinder the flow of conversation. Besides, it's a kind
| of badge of honor and a sign of trust when you're offered a
| "Du". When I address anyone of our management team as "Du"
| these days, it irritates me - I'm not "best friends" with
| them, nor do I feel closer or more connected. For me, the
| distinction is/was never an expression of whether you are
| on an equal footing or not.
| k07b470n wrote:
| Interesting how you write "Du" and not "du". I'm French
| and I've been living in Germany for 20 years. I
| understand and use "du/Sie" more or less appropriately
| (we have the same dichotomy in French). What I still
| cannot wrap my head around after all this time is
| why/when some people use "du/Du", "dein/Dein",
| "dich/Dich" in writing (to be clear: not at the beginning
| of a sentence). I guess "Du" is somewhere inbetween "du"
| und "Sie" on the politeness scala but I never dared to
| ask. I'm only using lowercase "du". What would be a rule
| of thumb on how/when to use the uppercase "Du"?
| valenterry wrote:
| "Du" and "du" are generally 100% equivalent. Regular
| casing-rules apply, e.g. in the beginning of a sentence
| it's "Du" but inside it's "du". "Kannst du mir helfen?".
| "Du kannst dir doch selbst helfen!"
|
| Sometimes it's written "Du" even if in the middle of the
| sentence when addressing someone directly. It's
| technically incorrect, but it's used for emphasis and
| hence politeness, and that's probably where your feeling
| comes from.
|
| The same can happen with other words that are getting
| capitalized for similar reasons, but when going strictly
| by the book it's grammatically incorrect. An example
| would be "das Grosse Ganze" where it should be "grosse"
| but it is capitalized to emphasize the connection/phrase.
| nosebear wrote:
| >It's technically incorrect, but it's used for emphasis
| and hence politeness, and that's probably where your
| feeling comes from.
|
| That's wrong, it's not _technically incorrect_. In fact
| before 2006 the only correct way to address someone
| _personally_ in written form was to capitalize the Du /
| Sie / Ihr. Since then you are allowed to write it either
| way. I still use the capitalized form because I'm old and
| that's what I learned back in school.
| valenterry wrote:
| Fair enough.
|
| > Since then you are allowed to write it either way
|
| Okay, my interpretation is that it doesn't really make
| sense within the language rules, so they changed it but
| allowed to use the old style to make the transition
| easier. ;-)
|
| > I still use the capitalized form because I'm old and
| that's what I learned back in school.
|
| Impossible to keep up with all the Rechtschreibreformen
| anyways.
| k07b470n wrote:
| Thank you and nosebear for the clarification! Now I
| understand better why some of my colleagues (like my
| boss, older) use "Du" and some don't. I'll stick to not
| using it, there are enough grammatic pitfalls elsewhere
| in the German language (not that French is any easier for
| foreigners, I'm sure).
| gen220 wrote:
| I love and hate German for this; it's a language whose
| formal pitfalls and vagaries seem almost designed to sort
| people into highly-refined strata of education.
|
| It must be so cool to see all of them "from the top"
| (i.e. someone who has been natively-and-highly educated,
| immersed in the language for their whole life); but it's
| from the outside it's like a fancy club that you just
| can't seem to get into :)
| umbra07 wrote:
| It seems sort of like calling other people ma'am and sir
| in America. Everyone _knows_ what those words mean, but
| younger people will almost never use them (except in
| specific American subcultures). Some people may be
| offended if you call them sir /ma'am.
| encom wrote:
| The YouTube algorithm has seen fit to serve me a bunch of
| American police bodycam videos lately. I find it super
| bizarre that a policeman will address everyone as sir.
| Including some deranged crackhead, without pants,
| charging at him with a sword. Decidedly not a "sir".
|
| In Denmark _nobody_ adresses each other formally, unless
| you 're royalty. Parliament also does it during debates,
| but that's pretty much it. It's weird when it happens,
| and it's usually some store clerk that does it out of a
| misguided attempt at politeness, but to me at least it
| has the opposite effect. I am not a Hr. (sir), I'm just
| some dickhead buying cigarettes at 1 AM.
|
| I Denmark we at least pretend everyone is equal. The CEO
| of the company is just John. We eat lunch in the same
| break room at the same time.
| DiggyJohnson wrote:
| US English doesn't really have an informal version of
| "sir" for the situation you described. Closest would be
| "hey" or "yo" etc. but those aren't even (pro)nouns.
| stirfish wrote:
| Sounds like a duel with a knight, so "sir" feels
| appropriate.
|
| More seriously, I think it's possible that "sir" can be
| used in a way that casts everyone as equals. Like, you
| can be in a crackhead's den and recognize that he is in
| important person in that environment.
| jfinnery wrote:
| The way US cops talk is a whole thing. It's one of the
| most-distinctive job-related American English variants.
| Even more so than white-collar "business English" ("let's
| take this offline and circle back to it, as per my prior
| email")
|
| Some of it's weird posturing (I'd put the "sir" thing in
| that category) and a bunch of it's a combination of
| actually-effective and folk-supposed-effective ways of
| speaking to dazzle jurors, plus probably some other
| motivations and influences thrown in (some Hollywood-
| military turns of phrase and vocabulary, certainly)
| anthk wrote:
| In Spanish the Police/Civil Guard (militarized police)
| does the same, they will address you like "Disculpe,
| caballero" - excuse me, (Gentle) Sir. They will address
| you very formaly, and you might shit bricks on the road
| in case you messed up something or have a faulty light.
| wink wrote:
| I think it also highly depends on where you're from.
|
| Traditionally in Bavaria you'd have used "Du/Ihr" in
| shops or on the streets colloquially even decades ago,
| and yet from time to time you'd ran into people (always
| from Northern Germany) who seemed very surprised you'd
| not use "Sie/Ihnen".
|
| Of course I'm overgeneralizing and I think I've had like
| 2 jobs in my life (since the late 90s) where some people
| were called Herr/Frau X instead of the just the first
| name, be it IT or not.
| davidw wrote:
| As a born and raised English speaker and fluent Italian
| speaker, I still don't love the "tu / lei". It's very...
| binary as to what gets used. Sometimes that's easy, but the
| marginal cases can be difficult to figure out.
|
| I think the tone and posture when addressing someone convey
| enough formality. Like if I met Barack Obama, I would be
| very formal and respectful in my bearing and language, but
| of course still use 'you'.
| agubelu wrote:
| In the weird edge cases you can simply err on the side of
| politeness and use the formal version. Worst case
| scenario they'll simply tell you to drop it and use tu
| instead.
| LinAGKar wrote:
| From what I understand, it used to be similar here in
| Sweden, but that change with the du reform in the 60s and
| 70s, when people started saying "du" to everyone, and "ni"
| became purely plural (unless you're speaking to royalty).
|
| We also pretty much always use first name, at least
| everywhere I've been. Would feel weird to call people by
| their last name.
| boogieknite wrote:
| ever have people at work addressing people by only their
| first name initial in email?
|
| someone ive never met in person and uses my first name on
| work calls referring to me as "b" in email. its like the
| wears-a-bowtie-to-work guy of email.
|
| come across a few of these people and have never noticed a
| tell they were that type of person outside the text of
| their email
| sfifs wrote:
| Yes. I find addressing people by surname uniquely stupid.
| Like are you calling the person or the historical clan? It
| perhaps made sense for medieval lords to address their
| underlings as if they were interchangeable, in our modern
| context that has largely done away with royalty, using
| surnames makes no sense.
|
| It becomes even more interesting when traditionally cultures
| (like mine) don't use surnames, but modern IT systems
| stemming from the Anglo Saxon culture force people to
| arbitrarily assign one of their names as a surname or IT
| systems generally don't work.
| anal_reactor wrote:
| The fact that different cultures evolved such systems
| independently proves that the general idea does make sense.
| Case in point: you go to an American company, the CEO says
| "call me simply John, feel free to chat up whenever you
| feel like it, we're all family here" and then you go talk
| to him about sex life problems of your marriage and he just
| stares at you awkwardly. Having explicit layers of social
| "closeness" makes things much easier to manage. "We address
| each other using last names, therefore I won't tell him
| about sex life of my marriage".
| bambax wrote:
| Interesting choice of username, given this comment ;-)
| notahacker wrote:
| If you address him as anything more than Mr Reactor
| you'll learn all about what he gets up to...
| godelski wrote:
| He's anal
| staticman2 wrote:
| In your example the American CEO said you are family.
|
| Do you frequently tell you mom, dad, brothers, children
| and in laws about your sex life?
|
| Of course not. Whatever problem the American in this
| hypothetical is having, name conventions are not likely
| to help.
| vel0city wrote:
| This wasn't just "sex life", it was "sex life problems of
| your marriage". And yes, there's a good chance I'd go to
| family and close friends if I was having intimacy
| problems with my spouse (with the approval of my spouse,
| of course!), assuming I have a close personal
| relationship with those people.
|
| It's weird to me so many people in America feel they
| can't talk to anyone but strangers on their internet or
| paid specialists about their sexual issues. Sex is
| generally a pretty normal part of life, especially
| between two married people, and yet everyone feels they
| can't talk about it at all. It's an unhealthy mindset
| IMO.
| boogieknite wrote:
| is it particularly american to avoid bothering others
| with my own problems of any kind?
|
| i live in the pnw which is somewhat infamous for its
| "mind your own business" culture. we have a transplant
| friend from the midwest who seem less shameful in asking
| for what amounts to free labor and i wonder if its a
| regional cultural thing within the US.
|
| if forced by auditors to bother others with my problems,
| intimacy issues would be near the end of the list.
|
| if this is american, which cultures encourage bothering
| others with personal problems?
| vel0city wrote:
| I'm mostly agreeing with anal_reactor, that for most
| people there are hierarchies of closeness one will
| probably have with other people. I'm not talking about
| chatting up intimacy issues with any random neighbor or
| business contact, I'm talking about _close_ friends and
| relatives.
|
| Once again, not just out of the blue calling up that
| cousin you haven't spoken to in a decade and start
| unloading on them about your emotional issues of the day,
| but people in your life that truly know the day to day
| you. And I'm also not saying we should all invite our
| friends over for some barbecue and then just start
| sharing every detail of our sex lives. But if we are
| having problems in the intimate parts of our lives, we
| should have some people who we can talk to about it.
| People who understand your deep values, people who
| understand your goals in life, people who really get you
| and love you.
|
| I think more people should probably have more deep
| connections with others. Everyone sees it as "bother
| others with my problems" and then we wonder why we have
| such a mental health crisis in this country and have a
| loneliness epidemic. Almost as if these things are
| related...nah! Seriously, is there absolutely nobody in
| your life who you think wouldn't find it a bother to
| listen to whatever is emotionally unsettling you? That
| the only way for anyone to help you with a problem would
| be to pay them? This would seem incredibly distressing to
| me, to feel like I have no real close community at all.
|
| I'm not saying we shouldn't have paid professionals for
| mental health resources as well. They absolutely have a
| place, and I think a lot of Americans don't utilize these
| services enough for a multitude of reasons. But in the
| same way you don't go to the ER for a minor cut you
| shouldn't _have_ to rely on paid therapists for your day
| to day emotional issues.
|
| As for asking about free labor, once again it really
| depends on the context of the request and the
| relationship I have with the person. Once again,
| hierarchies of relationships. I've absolutely asked
| friends and neighbors to help work on a project around
| the house, and I've absolutely been one of those people
| asked to help and been there. I wouldn't think anything
| of the ask, and I wouldn't think anything of someone
| saying no to me asking. It would definitely depend on the
| context though. A random stranger knocking on my door
| asking me to redo their whole home's plumbing? Probably
| not! A neighbor I've talked to a few times asking for a
| spare set of hands for a minute as they hang something
| outside? If I have a minute, sure thing, I'll be right
| there. A close friend needing a hand pulling some
| ethernet cable throughout their home or work on
| refinishing their billiard table or painting a room? I'll
| grab some beers and be there in an hour.
|
| My home is the first house in the neighborhood, so I tend
| to get a number of people who have minor car trouble
| break down stop in front. I go out there with a tool bag
| and a sealed bottle of water ready to help every time I
| see someone out there. But oh no, what a nut, offering
| all that free labor to absolute strangers.
|
| > bothering others with personal problems
|
| Ultimately my point is people should have other people in
| their lives where talking about intimate details and
| issues in their lives _shouldn 't be seen as a bother_,
| but as something they would want to help with. And that I
| think it's a symptom of our society being sick that so
| many people think helping others, _even supposedly close
| friends and family_ , with their issues is being
| bothered.
| anal_reactor wrote:
| > Do you frequently tell you mom, dad, brothers, children
| and in laws about your sex life?
|
| Yes.
| skygazer wrote:
| Do you find they look at you the same way your CEO did?
| If not, you apparently have unusually "special"
| relationships.
| anal_reactor wrote:
| Sometimes. Those who don't usually also enjoy hearing me
| in a much more relaxed tone, whereas those who do end up
| perceiving me through the lens of much more official
| language. I still fail to see what's so absurd about
| this.
|
| Do you... literally talk to your boss the same way you
| talk to your best friend?
| EasyMark wrote:
| I don't talk to my work relationship only CEO about
| anything sexual. That's just common sense, and is built
| into our social mores, no need for some hokey Mr.
| Blahblah unless he wants to be called that explicitly,
| and I'm fine with that.
| cafard wrote:
| I think American high school kids often refer to and
| address one another by surname. It was the case when at my
| son's high school, as I recall at my own, and I think at my
| wife's. It might have been the case at my father's, and
| perhaps my wife's parents--I'd have to look at the
| yearbooks.
| canjobear wrote:
| This was absolutely not the norm I experienced in the
| 2000s.
| DaSHacka wrote:
| Nor I in the 2010's/2020's; I have to assume GP is either
| significantly older than us, or from a community with a
| strong cultural bubble that may be clouding their
| judgement.
| 1shooner wrote:
| I experienced this at an boy's prep high school in the
| late 90s. It really was alienating to have friends I'd
| known since kindergarten start to refer to me by my last
| name out of sheer conformity.
| losvedir wrote:
| I did in that timeframe. To be clear, it's not "Mr
| Surname" but just plain "Surname". I have a lot of
| friends like that, "Boughter", "Mooney", etc. Not
| everyone, but particularly if the first name was a common
| one or they played sports.
|
| I'm actually surprised you're not familiar with the
| practice. Think Scully from X-Files or Stifler from
| American Pie.
| snypher wrote:
| >Stifler from American Pie
|
| I always assumed it was his first name, thanks for
| expanding my understanding just a little!
| jfinnery wrote:
| It's mostly a thing among kids heavily into sports, in my
| experience.
| colanderman wrote:
| I suspect the equivalent for 90s/00s nerdy types is
| e-mail addresses.
|
| I am _still_ "squirrel" to some college friends. And
| think of many of my college friends and co-workers as
| their username.
| jlmcguire wrote:
| My experience is this mostly between men and generally
| not as common as it used to be.
|
| My dad is called by his surname by some of his high
| school pals and call some of them by surname when he's
| around them (but not in reference to them if he's talking
| to me). Thinking back to my high school days in the late
| 00's I can only remember athletes being called by their
| last name. Perhaps because of football or sports that you
| just have your last name on your jersey. It would be an
| interesting thing to understand more.
|
| I could be regional too. I'm from the US in the midwest.
| ep103 wrote:
| This is what we used to do, because in one friend group
| there would be 3 mikes and 2 steves. At some point, you
| have to use nicknames or last names.
| yamazakiwi wrote:
| Nicknames include variations like Mikey, Mickey, Mikail,
| Big Michael, Little Michael, Gas Station Michael, Angry
| Michael, Tony (obligatory wrong name your group uses
| because there were already too many Michaels and this
| Michael liked his middle name)
|
| and Mike.
| boogieknite wrote:
| a lot of the time its just a nickname. public schools in
| the US are huge and then when it comes to sports the
| athletes are visiting other schools. before i knew it id
| meet 12 new Jakes every year so everyone goes by
| nicknames or last name
|
| theres an occasional phenomenon in the US, often
| referenced in sitcoms, where an individuals entire first
| and last name sticks as their "nickname"
| dylan604 wrote:
| There's also the "when you say Mr. lastname, I turn
| around and look for my father" type of responses when
| using someone's last name.
| stirfish wrote:
| In my high school (Massachusetts, USA), almost all the
| students went by their last names, or something related
| to their last names. Ashley Milford was Milf, Samantha
| St. Paul was Saint Paul, Ryan Leonard was Lenny, Kevin
| Doo was Kevin Doo, for example. I'm still my surname in
| my head.
|
| I learned later that we had a reputation for being a jock
| school though, because we all had to play a sport each
| semester.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| Were your "American" high schools located on some other
| continent?
| EarlKing wrote:
| Addressing each other by surname is something that occurs
| principally in the context of sports, but outside of that
| you'd just address someone by given name. That was the
| case as regards children addressing each other or
| teachers addressing students. Students addressing
| teachers, of course, would address them by Mr/Mrs/Ms.
| <surname>. There are some oddball cases where teachers
| insist their students address them by given name, though.
|
| Also, you made me feel old.
| lukas099 wrote:
| The surname thing was extremely common even outside of
| sports at my high school.
| dmoy wrote:
| It is also used when there's name collision
|
| If there's five people named John in the same class in
| school or the same team at work, it is not uncommon for
| all John to go by last name.
| EarlKing wrote:
| In my circle usually people would either go by their
| middle name or they'd very quickly earn themselves a
| nickname... although now that I think about it we did use
| lastnames for some guys. Whatever works, really. Nobody
| was a stickler about how they were addressed.
| dpifke wrote:
| I have a very common first name (Dave) and a very uncommon
| last name (Pifke, pronounced PIF-key). The majority of my
| close friends call me by my last name, since there are
| several other Daves and Davids in our friend group.
|
| My brother's friends do likewise, since his first name is
| Mike and he runs with a bunch of other Mikes and Michaels.
|
| There's a naming collision when my brother and I hang out
| together, but since we live in different states, the system
| usually works.
| dylan604 wrote:
| There's always first initial partial last. DPif and MPif
| DiggyJohnson wrote:
| Same. I work with a girl with first name Emily last name
| rhymes with "Wacky". The latter is so much for fun to say
| and avoids collisions.
| mhink wrote:
| Similar here. My last name is pretty unusual, but my
| first name is common, so I generally go by my last name
| with friends and colleagues. Oddly, I've gotten so used
| to this that it feels a little bit _more_ formal when
| someone addresses me by my first name.
|
| To make matters even more complicated, when I do use my
| first name, I almost always use an abbreviation. The only
| people that use my full first name are my parents,
| sister, and (occasionally) my wife, and it's really off-
| putting to hear it otherwise.
|
| Names are interesting and weird.
| EasyMark wrote:
| Yeah I have had bosses refer to me by my last name and it's
| effin irritating. I almost always prefer relaxed, casual
| attitudes more than frumpy traditionalist for no good reason
| situations. I understand rare formal occasions but I don't
| want to put on some mask of formality every day. I consider
| everyone equal, at least as far as value as a human being.
| Just treat me with respect, I'm fine with you using my first
| name.
| bityard wrote:
| Tangent:
|
| My father's family is German and all of the males in the
| family only used their middle name for everything except
| legal and financial documents. For example, Carl Hans Schmidt
| (to pick a semi-made-up example) would introduce himself as
| Hans to everyone he met, and the family would refer to him as
| Hansi.
|
| I always wondered if that was a German (or regional)
| tradition, or a fun family quirk.
|
| (The males have all regrettably passed on but I asked my
| aunts once and they said they had no idea why or how that was
| a thing, that's just what they did.)
| anthk wrote:
| Spanish too. Francisco Javier -> Javi, or maybe Paco
| (Francisco), but Javi would be the obvious case.
|
| Francisco -> Paco from Saint Francis holding a Pater
| Comunitatis title in Latin.
|
| But, as a weirder case:
|
| Jose Maria -> Chema
|
| Luis Maria -> Luisma
|
| Juan Manuel -> Juanma
|
| Jose Manuel -> Chema/Josema
|
| Juan Ramon -> Juanra
|
| Maria Jose (women's name) -> Marijose
| walthamstow wrote:
| My personal favourite is Juan Carlos -> Juanca. Sounds
| great in British English.
| gniv wrote:
| When I moved to the US it was a cultural shock to have people
| call me by my first name. But I got used to it quickly and now
| everything else seems awkward, especially since my last name is
| hard to pronounce.
| johngossman wrote:
| These things come and go across times and cultures. Even in the
| United States, which many people think of as highly informal,
| it was once common to refer to almost everyone outside the
| family formally. My grandmother talked to her next door
| neighbor everyday and they said "Hello, Mrs. G-" and "How are
| you, Mrs. S-". You also see this in 19th century American and
| English literature ("Mr. Darcy")
| dustincoates wrote:
| At least when I was growing up, it was still the norm in the
| South/Texas. My parents would have never referred to the
| elderly in our neighborhood by their first names.
| yurishimo wrote:
| I also great up in Texas (30yo now). I was raised to always
| say sir/ma'am but for most adults that I knew well, we were
| on a first name basis. Deacons at church were usually on a
| first name basis (my parents volunteered a lot so I knew
| them all really well) but the one noticeable exception was
| the pastor and anyone in a teaching role.
|
| Teachers were always addressed by Mr/Mrs/Ms and this
| extended into Scouts as well. For anyone I don't know, I
| tend to just say "sir/ma'am" (employee at the grocery store
| for example) unless. If the person has a professional title
| that I know of, I will use the title (Dr. Martin, Professor
| Lake, etc).
|
| My parents I suppose were very similar. Sir/Ma'am for most
| interactions, but I don't recall hearing a Mr/Mrs/Ms when
| they referenced other people in our lives.
|
| Since I've moved to Europe a few years back, I'm trying to
| follow the local customs more, which at first glance seem
| very similar (Netherlands). Formal for strangers, informal
| for basically everyone else. I've tried using the formal
| with some older neighbours and they always tell me stop
| immediately!
| dustincoates wrote:
| > Deacons at church were usually on a first name basis
| (my parents volunteered a lot so I knew them all really
| well) but the one noticeable exception was the pastor and
| anyone in a teaching role.
|
| That brings up an actually interesting exception. At my
| church, the pastors were the only adults we'd ever call
| by their first name, sort of. Our pastor, for example,
| was always Brother Mike, not Pastor <Last Name>.
| thyristan wrote:
| Are you certain that Brother Mike wasn't a monk as well,
| so in a religious context "Brother Mike" was his only
| proper name?
| Ichthypresbyter wrote:
| AIUI a Catholic monk who is also an ordained priest is
| addressed as Father not Brother (certainly this is true
| of the Dominicans I've met).
|
| I think this is also true for Orthodox monks.
|
| I'm not sure if there's a Christian denomination that has
| pastors who aren't priests, and also has monks. So this
| sounds to me more like a situation where all fellow
| members of the church are addressed as Brother/Sister.
| vel0city wrote:
| > I was raised to always say sir/ma'am
|
| I also grew up in Texas and to this day I still tend to
| use sir/ma'am for most adults I don't know. Every now and
| then it seems to throw people off. People don't seem to
| expect to hear "Yes, sir" very often it seems.
| umbra07 wrote:
| I think there's a difference between "excuse me sir, you
| dropped your wallet" and "yessir".
| wahern wrote:
| In rural Georgia my father's wife, still 15+ years my
| senior, would always "yessir" and "no sir" me, just as she
| did with everyone else (ma'am for women, of course). And
| this was in the past 10 years. Even my half-siblings from
| rural Alabama do that generally, but not nearly so strictly
| with family like myself. Use of last names, though, is
| still reserved for non-family elders.
|
| Conversely, in coastal California that kind of speech is
| actively (even aggressively) discouraged, such as in public
| schools, higher grades, especially. It's still appreciated
| in more traditional communities, though, such as black or
| immigrant Asian communities. Code switching isn't limited
| to certain minority groups; even affluent coastal white
| folks often end of code switching.
| anthk wrote:
| Spaniard here; addressing someone by the last name looks really
| outdated.
| whstl wrote:
| Same.
|
| The only situation where I call people by their last name in
| my language is when it's their nickname. Like there were two
| "Johns" so we call the second one "Smith".
| blargthorwars wrote:
| As a tourist, it's a cheat code to be hyper formal. Gets you
| instant goodwill.
| agubelu wrote:
| Spanish has actually three levels of formality when
| addressing someone by name:
|
| <First name>: Informal, casual conversation.
|
| Don <First name>: More formal, conveys respect while still
| indicating some closeness.
|
| Senor <Last name>: Most formal, normally used in writing.
|
| Using only someone's last name is just plain weird. If you
| want to speak formally to someone just address them as
| "usted", it will get you the same goodwill without sounding
| off.
| anthk wrote:
| Don it's very outdated unless you address a very
| important person.
| agubelu wrote:
| I agree it's more likely to be used by older generations
| but it's not uncommon to hear it around either,
| especially when addressing or refering to elders
| anthk wrote:
| Well, corporation addressing clients would use
| senor/senora but between older/middle aged men. For
| anyone under 40 it looks a bit old-fashioned. They would
| just switch to an 'usted/ustedes' person (formal
| you/yall, for HN speakers) and no one will feel like they
| were in 1960.
|
| And even with that, people under 35 will just stay at the
| informal (normal you) "tu" case.
| tiagod wrote:
| In Portugal it's very associated with military service. I
| don't think I've ever been addressed by my last name here.
| anthk wrote:
| In Spain maybe if you are something really important or
| being addressed on _very_ formal environments. Maybe a boss
| /manager from a corporation addressing clients...
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| Has _tutoiement_ changed too? How does that work with machines,
| do they always use _vous_ form?
| benhurmarcel wrote:
| Typically machines/websites should use "vous", but it is more
| and more common to read "tu", depending on the target
| audience and the company marketing.
| andruby wrote:
| And with french you also have Tu vs Vous.
|
| I am almost at the halfway point of my life expectancy, and I
| do actually prefer people using my first name over my last
| name.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| Would addressing you by your mail address work ?
|
| Handling people's name is I think the bane of our field, and
| leads to many of the awful choices like forcing fields with a
| first and last name for instance, or requesting people's gender
| to properly set the Mr and Mrs. As a dev I'm not happy about
| it, as a user I hate it, I'm not sure the majority of people
| are happy either with the current state of things.
|
| Accepting that it's a machine sending the mail could simplify
| all of this quite a bit, provided people are fine by being
| addressed in an impersonal and inorganic way.
| miki123211 wrote:
| If you mean snail mail address, no it wouldn't. It's common
| to share these between people who have the same last (or
| sometimes first) names. Things get really fun when it's.
| both, e.g. a man marrying somebody who has the same first
| name as their sister. This actually happened in my (distant)
| family.
|
| If you mean an email (or the part before the @), also no.
| People sometimes sign up from addresses like
| contact@example.com, and "dear contact" would be super
| confusing.
|
| The "right thing to do" is to have a "what should we call
| you" field, which should be completely separate from any
| names collected for legal purposes, if any.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| > If you mean an email (or the part before the @), also no.
| People sometimes sign up from addresses like
| contact@example.com, and "dear contact" would be super
| confusing.
|
| I was going for the principle that we're not trying to
| mimic human emotions when it's a mail to remind you to
| accept the latest TOS.
|
| So, no "Dear", no trying to come up with something socially
| acceptable, just plain "miki123211@hn.xx, please review our
| newest Terms and Services at https://....../...."
|
| The "what should we call you" field sounds attractive, but
| would be ripe for abuse IMHO. Not on technical terms, but
| users would definitely play with it to have you send "Mrs
| DeepshitFuckHorse please confirm your email at...." to
| random addresses for instance, or any other vector that
| we're not thinking about right now.
| lipowitz wrote:
| Earlier everything was based on 'handles' and using them
| was fine and expected.. As networks adopt everyone and
| become used for formal things it's gotten more
| complicated to integrate rules of different systems.
|
| I've started to prefer messages that just start with
| "Hello,".
| miki123211 wrote:
| This is already plenty common with names.
|
| I tend to use fuck/off as name/surname for completely
| throwaway accounts, and "dear mr. Fuck" is something I
| received once.
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| When I was in university, a friend of mine used to address me
| by my unix username.
| esseph wrote:
| This rules and your friend is awesome
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| It's not unusual for people to use the name they know you
| by. In high school, there was someone who addressed me as
| Ix, the name I used in multiplayer Duke Nukem. He didn't
| know my name.
|
| There are several people I know primarily through wechat,
| where it's almost always unnecessary to address people by
| name because messages have only one recipient. Sometimes
| this has led to conversations like this:
|
| > What should I call you? Ying ?
|
| > OK.
|
| [I was not especially reassured by that response.]
| justsomehnguy wrote:
| > re was someone who addressed me as Ix, the name I used
| in multiplayer Duke Nukem
|
| Heh, there are still some people who call me by my
| nickname back from 2000s. It doesn't help what it means
| something between "the beast" and "the thing" and I had
| people of the old clout be quite offended by it.
| Including my mother.
| ilc wrote:
| Only one?
|
| You got off light. I had a good number of people call me by
| my username at my undergrad.
|
| When I went to grad school, they let us select user ids. My
| user name matched my first name, most elegant solution to
| that problem yet ;)
| make3 wrote:
| I feel like tu vs vous is extra annoying in French when you're
| speaking to someone who's not a stranger. I have no desire to
| judge if you think you're too famous of eg a professor for me
| to say tu, your success doesn't create a hierarchy between us,
| and it's annoying if you think so. I much prefer English for
| that.
| nc0 wrote:
| It's not really a question of fame but more of respect, we
| are not relatives, so you do not use tu.
| kaptainscarlet wrote:
| Giving respect based on seniority is one of the major reasons
| why autocracies thrive unchecked in some countries as younger
| people are unable to hold older folks accountable.
| lukan wrote:
| In its extreme shapes maybe, but just paying respect to the
| elders for having lived much longer and seen so much more, is
| something that should be normal in my opinion.
| miki123211 wrote:
| It used to be a lot more reasonable back in the day.
|
| When the world didn't change as quickly, or didn't change
| at all, the elders truly knew everything the young ones
| knew, and so much more. They had truly seen everything and
| had plenty of experience with the problems young people
| were struggling with.
|
| This very much isn't the case any more. I'm in my twenties
| (technically part of gen Z), but I already feel like I
| don't understand the Tiktok-using, trap-loving part of my
| generation. The 14-18 year olds probably have very
| different issues now than I did at that age, and that
| wasn't even so long ago. People from my parents' generation
| are out of the loop completely, their world still revolves
| around linear TV, college as a path for success in life
| etc.
| lukan wrote:
| Oh, I am also not asking my grandparents for concrete
| life or technical advice. I am just talking about respect
| of their age, what they experienced and lived through.
| bmicraft wrote:
| I really don't get why just the concept of deserving
| respect for having lived longer - why does that make you
| more deserving of respect, irrespective of how you lived?
| lukan wrote:
| Just the fact that they lived so much longer. And are
| usually more wise in life experience.
|
| That doesn't mean I tolerate old farts shouting at my
| children for being young. Or excuse shitty behavior in
| general.
|
| But the default for me is paying respect for the elders.
| Offering them my seat in the train if there is no other,
| etc.
| umbra07 wrote:
| > Just the fact that they lived so much longer.
|
| But... why does living longer in and of itself command an
| extra degree of respect?
|
| > And are usually more wise in life experience.
|
| assertion ;)
|
| > That doesn't mean I tolerate old farts shouting at my
| children for being young. Or excuse shitty behavior in
| general.
|
| > But the default for me is paying respect for the
| elders.
|
| > Offering them my seat in the train if there is no
| other, etc.
|
| I offer old people my seat because they'll likely feel
| pain if they have to stand up for a while, they might
| fall down if the bus goes bump, etc. I won't be pained by
| standing up for 45 minutes so it doesn't really come at
| any cost to me.
|
| i.e. I'm not giving up my seat because I respect old
| people for being old.
| bmicraft wrote:
| > Just the fact that they lived so much longer.
|
| That's not a reason, you're just repeating the question.
| "Having lived long" is a value neutral statement of fact.
| How do you derive value from that?
|
| > And are usually more wise in life experience.
|
| So is that your true/only reason, a statistical
| probability of "knowing more"?
| lukan wrote:
| "That's not a reason, you're just repeating the question.
| "Having lived long" is a value neutral statement of fact.
| How do you derive value from that?"
|
| It is a reason in itself.
|
| I don't know if I manage to live 10 years more, not
| speaking of 50 years more.
|
| Living long is a achievent on its own, not be brought
| down early by life. Because there is a lot that life has
| to offer to bring you down.
|
| That requires a minimum of wisdom.
| bmicraft wrote:
| ~99% of people manage that, it's like the worst possible
| indicator for the wisdom or quality of a person.
|
| All while at the same time putting everybody who didn't
| get the chance yet below them. It feels very arbitrary -
| there are a lot of better indicators than age for that.
| lukan wrote:
| Maybe lets have a talk in 50 years about it?
| mattgreenrocks wrote:
| Think of it more as a little extra atop the basic
| courtesy due to all people (unless they prove otherwise).
| ryandrake wrote:
| I see basic courtesy as required, but respect must be
| earned and can be withdrawn. Respect is earned through
| good behavior, not by simply growing old.
| EasyMark wrote:
| I'm not sure tik tok expertise implies worldliness or
| wisdom :)
| hn_go_brrrrr wrote:
| Sorry -- "trap-loving"?
| kubanczyk wrote:
| A genre of music.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| It's a tougher sell when the younger generation gets the
| short end of the stick.
|
| In a way that would be a good barometer of how that society
| thinks it's doing and how promising the younger generation
| sees its future, as prepared by their elders.
|
| It's all the more interesting in countries where the
| population pyramid if fully reversed, and elders have way
| more power than the younger working class.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| seniority as in rank, and respect for elders as in filial
| piety in East Asia are two very different things. Autocracy
| relies on execution of arbitrary power, and the latter places
| a limit on it. It's why after the revolution in China,
| Confucianism is the first thing they tried to get rid of. I
| stayed in Beijing during the covid lockdowns and there was
| one group of people that could do what they wanted "dancing
| grannies", old people who meet up to dance in public parks
| because messing with them was seen as too offensive.
|
| Autocracy is usually driven by the opposite, unrestricted
| mobilization of the youth. In particular true in the West
| today. Bukele is not exactly a pensioner, and if the US has
| displayed one thing in recent times it isn't respect for the
| age of their leaders to put it mildly.
| kmeisthax wrote:
| Yes, but traditionalist power structures are still
| authoritarian. Insamuch as they oppose autocracies, it is
| by virtue of having got there first and not yielding power
| to the new tyrant[0]. The problem is not the age of the
| ruler, or the legitimacy of the power structure, but the
| resulting distribution of power.
|
| Insamuch as Confucian filial piety can be a check on
| upstart autocrats, that's _useful_ , but not _sufficient_.
| There 's nothing stopping the Maoist autocracy from
| embracing Confucius[1]; Mao just didn't want to for
| ideological reasons. Autocrats are ultimately building a
| coalition of scam victims that are all locked in the same
| room with one another. They don't care who's in the room as
| long as they won't unify against the leader.
|
| In the US, we have Trump, the oldest US President in
| history, with, to put it mildly, "autocratic ambitions".
| His coalition includes old people, who vote early and
| often, and want to impose the social order of the 1950s
| upon the country. Almost[2] nothing about them suggests
| that they're going to meaningfully check Trump's power
| anytime soon; if anything, they're the only[3] faction of
| the Trump coalition that's gotten anything out of the deal.
|
| [0] If the autocrat wins, they will eventually just become
| the new traditionalist power structure. Every pirate wants
| to become an admiral.
|
| [1] Mussolini recognized the Vatican as a sovereign state
| purely to get the Pope to shut up about him.
|
| [2] Insert clip of some old guy vandalizing a Cybertruck
| here.
|
| [3] No, I don't count pardoning Ross Ulbricht. The
| Libertarian Party sold their soul for a donut.
| bonoboTP wrote:
| Communist Soviet Union, Eastern Bloc and China was supposed
| to be flat and everyone was "comrade". Did that prevent
| autocracy?
| OhMeadhbh wrote:
| I try to get people to avoid my first name, mostly because they
| can't pronounce it. The only time I had a stranger pronounce it
| right was when we were meeting w/ the Republic of Ireland tech
| transfer office.
| IAmBroom wrote:
| O, Mev!
| wazoox wrote:
| Ah yes, the worst is Discord who always says "tu", who are you?
| do I know you? Did we herd geese together at some point :D ?
| chromehearts wrote:
| Very interesting! I work for (probably) the most well known
| German company. Here, it's always advised to use the first name
| & the 2nd person singular pronoun ("du"; you) instead of the
| more formal third person plural pronoun ("Sie"; you)
|
| Company standards differ and every time you meet someone new,
| say in a Teams-Meeting, the older person generally offers you
| to use "Du". You may or may not accept it
|
| It's basically "respecting your elders"
|
| While I (21 years of age) talk with my boss on this personal
| level, I can't get myself to address other older (higher
| ranked) employees by their first name. Saying Mr. or Mrs. is
| kinda required for me as the person I am, because I always try
| to respect them. (This doesn't apply to some other older
| (higher ranked) employees, those with which I don't have much
| to work with. While I do respect them, it's not the same type
| of respect I have for them)
|
| This may sound very confusing and it even is for me, as I am
| not German and merely adapt to what is the cultural standard
| here.
|
| My culture we address everyone by their first name. The only
| thing we must absolutely add are the social prefixes for older
| folks (typically above a 5 year range? depends on some
| factors.) I could never address, mention or talk about uncle /
| aunt XYZ as just XYZ. It's very crucial to always add that,
| especially for people you know. If you don't know them, just
| say the preferred prefix as well, it shows a basic level of
| respect We don't really use our surnames - it's more to
| identify, who exactly we are talking about. For example, when
| talking about "Michael", but the involved in the conversation
| don't know who we're talking about we usually just say "from
| the house of _surname_ " ( _house of_ is the literal
| translation)
| rayiner wrote:
| I spent almost 10 years trying to avoid calling my mother and
| father in law by their first names. In my home country's
| language there are words for "mother in law" and "father in
| law" you can use in a second person context, but English
| doesn't have any. My wife has the opposite problem. She's
| gotten stuck calling my parents "Mr. XYZ" and "Mrs. XYZ."
| beAbU wrote:
| My inlaws are addressed "mom" and "dad" - is that weird?
| wccrawford wrote:
| I've decided that in English, _every_ way to address your
| inlaws is weird until you settle on something specifically
| with them. "Mom" and "Dad" or "John" and "Jane", both will
| be weird until you've used them for a while.
|
| And if they don't like what you picked, you'll know pretty
| quick.
| dctoedt wrote:
| Mumble years ago I started using "Mom" and "Dad" as soon as
| we got married; my wife did the same with my folks -- and
| my folks did the same with my grandparents.
| rayiner wrote:
| It's somehow both too familiar and overly deferential. Vis-
| a-vis my wife's parents, I'm not a child, but an adult,
| though of less seniority.
| fragmede wrote:
| we've all seen https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-
| programmers-..., yeah?
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| Now that I know that every culture approaches this differently,
| it takes zero effort to not be annoyed when someone does
| something different than what I expect.
| youngNed wrote:
| ^^^ what this cunt said
| somanyphotons wrote:
| found the australian
| youngNed wrote:
| Irish, we're basically _proto-austalis_
| semanticist wrote:
| With 'ned' in the username I might've thought Glaswegian.
| :D
| DiggyJohnson wrote:
| Your comments boggles me. You understand their point and
| immediately misapply that understanding.
| joshdavham wrote:
| I never truly understood linguistic formality until I was
| teaching a class and one of the students addressed me as
| "Josh". My full name is "Joshua" and students virtually always
| used to call me that, but that semester, the computer system
| put my name as "Josh" and it felt weirdly disrespectful when a
| student called me that even though I know none was intended.
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| I'm Lithuanian but lived over 15 years (near half my lifetime)
| in UK and NZ.
|
| I love the informality and my brain struggles a bit when I
| speak Lithuanian, esp when I know I should be using formal
| addressing, but I'm not sure I want to.
| orthecreedence wrote:
| "I don't want to be your buddy, Rick. I just want a little
| breakfast."
| johngossman wrote:
| As far as I can tell, everything in this article applies to Japan
| as well.
| lmm wrote:
| It does not. Japan a hundred years ago maybe. Some of my
| Japanese colleagues were surprised when I mentioned this style
| of age counting in an old novel I was reading.
| johngossman wrote:
| You're right and I think I got my misinformation from reading
| older novels too. Apparently, the law changed in 1902 and it
| broadly phased out in the 50s.
| ang_cire wrote:
| That used to be true about Japan using the "1 the day you're
| born" system, but now it's mostly only referenced to joke about
| kids trying to claim they're older than they really are.
| dumb1224 wrote:
| In my hometown in China, same practice. However I find it not
| consistent for people from all over of China. When I get into a
| causal conversation about childhood with people from everywhere
| I had to do the conversion in my head (which school year what
| game came out e.g).
| null_deref wrote:
| The fact that all Koreans that were born in the same year become
| of a legal age to drink on the same day, probably creates some
| cool memories if you drink responsibly
| klntsky wrote:
| Drinking responsibly is uncool by definition when you are that
| age.
| apt-apt-apt-apt wrote:
| 'Oh, no thanks! I am good with one beer!'
| null_deref wrote:
| Yeah yeah I agree, it's sometimes fun to go crazy in that
| age. I meant drinking responsibly in the broadest way
| possible
| Tarq0n wrote:
| Korea has a binge drinking culture where adolescents frequently
| peer pressure each other to drink more.
| jjani wrote:
| Alcohol consumption in Korea among young adults has cratered
| over the last 10 years.
| jjani wrote:
| It does, on NYE there's huge groups of kids around going out
| for the first time.
| anhldbk wrote:
| Most Vietnamese do the same things too.
| politelemon wrote:
| Does the January 1st thing apply as well?
| Cyphase wrote:
| Sort of like horses.
|
| https://horseracingsense.com/why-thoroughbred-racehorses-sam...
| bryanhogan wrote:
| Thanks for sharing, never knew how much Koreans and horses have
| in common.
| bravesoul2 wrote:
| Good job the Matrix wasn't set in Korea
| gschizas wrote:
| Why?
| xxs wrote:
| 'Mr. Anderson', c'mon (when the big bad referring 'The one',
| 'Neo')
| Yizahi wrote:
| Movie with agent Smith as a good guy and a protagonist
| would be very amusing :)
| ang_cire wrote:
| I'm guessing because of "neo" being rude
| bryanhogan wrote:
| This reminds me, it's actually very interesting how English
| movies get translated into Korean and vice versa, since the
| nuances mentioned in the article are hard to translate /
| convey in the other language.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| In Tamatoa's musical number in _Moana_ , he spontaneously
| breaks into French for a single line of his song, "c'est
| la vie, mon ami". This is not expected to cause problems
| for English-speaking audiences.
|
| I thought it was interesting to see how foreign language
| dubs handled that line. Sometimes they translate the
| French into the dub language as if it had just been
| English like the rest of the song. Sometimes they leave
| it as French. I don't remember any that translate it into
| a language that isn't the language of the dub, but also
| isn't French.
|
| (Of particular note, the _French_ dub leaves the line as
| "untranslated" French.)
|
| Something that feels similar to me is the treatment of
| the Italian brothers in _Lady and the Tramp_. In the
| English original, they are jovial immigrants from Italy
| who operate an Italian restaurant and speak English in a
| very thick Italian accent.
|
| This cultural concept translated better into some foreign
| languages than others. In the French dub, the brothers
| are jovial immigrants from Italy who operate an Italian
| restaurant and speak French in a very thick Italian
| accent.
| nmeofthestate wrote:
| In the Spanish-dubbed version of Fawlty Towers, Manuel is
| Italian instead of Spanish, and he's Mexican in the
| Catalan version. (https://archive.ph/9LX6t)
| voidUpdate wrote:
| People always tell me that watching English dubbed anime
| isn't good because it loses the nuance of the Japanese
| language, in similar ways, though I don't speak/read
| Japanese so I'm either going to be listening to it in
| English or reading the subs in English. I know I'm going
| to be losing subtle nuance either way but I've never been
| good at learning languages
| decimalenough wrote:
| Sadly for the dad joke, the eo in neo "neo" is a single
| vowel that sounds more like English "u" or "o", as in
| Seoul.
| kinleyd wrote:
| As a young man many years ago I happened to be in Seoul, in a
| shoe store. I was casually asking prices in English and noticed
| the salesman or owner was getting visibly angry with me. So much
| so that as I went around the corner of the store I clearly saw
| that he had begun advancing toward me, with every intention of
| physically attacking me. I put my hand forward to stop him and as
| I did, I shouted loudly, again in English, "Stop. Let me outta
| here!" To which he suddenly hesitated, stepped aside and let me
| go.
|
| I wondered for years what I might have done to upset the bloke -
| he was a well built man and I did not want to fight him! It was
| only after the KAL crash and the coverage it gave the Korean
| focus on seniority and age that the penny dropped. He thought I
| was Korean - I do look very Korean (and Japanese and Chinese) -
| and was clearly offended by my not respecting his age.
|
| At least that is what I would like to think. The alternative is
| that I was somehow very offensive anyway and I'd like not to
| think that.
| whstl wrote:
| In Germany I never had someone go to those lengths, but I've
| once made someone visible irritated when I used _" du"_ instead
| of the more formal _" Sie"_.
|
| Of course I didn't notice but a friend just clued me into it
| right after.
|
| Thing is, in Berlin nobody really cares I guess, but this time
| I was in the country... oooooops...
| ffsm8 wrote:
| That must've been quite some time ago.
|
| With multiple areas with >50% migrants you can count yourself
| lucky if ppl even speak German fluently enough to hold a
| conversation.
|
| And the last holdouts that are still mostly natives are
| usually in the countryside... And the du/Sie rule has always
| been an urban convention.
|
| Personally, I think your friend just noticed the phrasing and
| made an issue out of nothing
| yongjik wrote:
| Umm... I'm not sure I follow. You were casually asking prices
| in _English_ and the shopowner jumped to the conclusion that
| you were trolling him by using English when you were fluent in
| Korean?
|
| If it was around that time, most Koreans were not good at
| English, and it's not exactly hard to tell a native English
| speaker from a Korean who learned "I'm a boy, you are a girl"
| in middle school.
|
| Sounds like the shopowner was just a jerk and was mad for some
| random reason.
| kinleyd wrote:
| It was in the early '90s, sometime before South Korea broke
| out as a dominant economic force. Yes, I'm convinced he
| thought I was a western educated Korean brat prancing around
| in his shop and was having none of it. Looking back, I still
| feel a sense of relief I didn't get beaten up.
| GreyMolecules wrote:
| This article does not address another layer that makes the Korean
| age system complicated: the "bbareun" system. It refers to people
| born in January or February who, due to the school cutoff being
| in March, often enter school a year early and socially identify
| with those born in the previous calendar year.
|
| For example, if I'm "bbareun95", which indicates that I was born
| in 1995 between January and the end of February, I get to
| befriend and hang out with the ones born in 1994.
|
| (Please note that Koreans typically make friends within the same
| narrow age band.)
| bryanhogan wrote:
| That's very interesting, thanks for mentioning it! I didn't
| know about that, hence I didn't include it. But it makes sense,
| I have sometimes noticed people asking whether the other was
| born early or late into the year, and change their standing
| based on that, but didn't know that that could have been
| because of the "bbareun" system.
| GreyMolecules wrote:
| Being a bbareun can put you in a slightly sticky situation,
| especially when combined with the strict hierarchy rules
| regarding honorifics (jondaesmal).
|
| Typically, throughout middle school to university days, a
| South Korean individual is expected to use the honorific
| version of the language when speaking to someone older. This
| version involves a completely different set of vocabulary and
| grammar, used to show "respect to others" and sound "polite,"
| effectively preventing one from being casual with others.
| Whereas a bbareun is allowed to befriend people one year
| above their age and gets to use "banmal" (the casual version
| of the language) with those peers.
|
| A social complication can arise when two groups with a
| monotonic increase in age meet. Say, friend group A comprises
| a regular 95 and a bbareun 95. They became friends in high
| school and talk casually. Then there's group B, which
| consists of a regular 95 and a bbareun 96, who also became
| friends in high school. Now, when groups A and B start
| hanging out together at university, the bbareun 95 has to
| decide whether to use honorific or casual speech with the
| regular 95 and the bbareun 96.
|
| The ones stuck in the middle, in this case the bbareun95,
| gets called "jogbo beureikeo", which roughly translates to
| "pedigree breaker".
| kanbara wrote:
| this is a thing in the us as well--- tho the cutoff is august
| or september normally. there's no name for it, but it's real.
|
| and american kids are also way more like to make friends in
| their school peer age group. i believe this is almost a
| universal truth for the first world
| rafram wrote:
| Absolutely true in elementary/middle school, and even a bit
| in the early parts of high school and college (upperclassmen
| don't want anything to do with "freshmen"), but in the adult
| world, I don't think age gaps of 5+ years between friends are
| uncommon at all.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| > Please note that Koreans typically make friends within the
| same narrow age band.
|
| Everyone does to some degree or another. For example, Americans
| do this through middle school. It's not really until high
| school where you start mingling with other grades.
| NL807 wrote:
| No disrespect to Korean people, but as an outsider, this kind
| of gymnastics for establishing a time point for something seems
| really absurd to me.
| GreyMolecules wrote:
| As a native Korean speaker who has used this language for
| more than two good decades with Koreans, I'd count this as
| the primary reason why I love hanging out with English and
| Chinese speakers these days.
|
| The language barrier between two Korean strangers (irony) is
| much thicker than when I talk to a passerby in English or
| Chinese asking for directions.
| jjani wrote:
| Just so you know, the system has been adjusted a while ago so
| that new bbareun no longer occur.
|
| And it wouldn't matter anyway; the changes from the top are
| already having their effect, elementary school kids are
| starting to consistently use man nai with each other.
| socalgal2 wrote:
| This "high power distance" culture contributed to several airline
| crashes in the 80s and 90s because people under the captain
| wouldn't dare to question the captain's decisions.
|
| One in particular:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Flight_801
| decimalenough wrote:
| Malcolm Campbell popularized this theory. It's not entirely
| without merit but as ever the reality is more nuanced. NTSB:
|
| > _The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the
| probable cause of this accident was the captain 's failure to
| adequately brief and execute the non-precision approach and the
| first officer's and flight engineer's failure to effectively
| monitor and cross-check the captain's execution of the
| approach. Contributing to these failures were the captain's
| fatigue and Korean Air's inadequate flight crew training.
| Contributing to the accident was the Federal Aviation
| Administration's intentional inhibition of the minimum safe
| altitude warning system at Guam and the agency's failure to
| adequately manage the system._
| elSidCampeador wrote:
| *Gladwell - Malcolm Campbell died long ago
| contrarian1234 wrote:
| Assuming the "power distance" is pre-existing - I find
| honorifics make it much easier to challenge someone in
| authority. If you start with a Mr/Mrs Blah or Professor Blah
| and then present critcism.. it typically comes off better. B/c
| you are showing you're not too chummy and you're strongly
| implying you respect them (at least somewhat).
|
| Ex: You're in a lecture and you tell your professor "Professor
| X, I think on slide 10 there is a mistake". This comes off much
| better than "Hey Bob, I think there is a mistake on slide 10"
|
| So at least personally, if appropriate, I default to using
| honorifics b/c it makes people feel better. (Unless they for
| some reason want to be seen as your peer - which does happen
| rarely)
| nindalf wrote:
| Yeah in my personal experience I like honorifics for the same
| reason. Not possible in English but in the other languages I
| know I make it a point to address everyone (except family and
| friends) with the higher honorific. Especially restaurant
| staff or other service workers. Sometimes I wish English had
| an easy way for me to convey "I respect you" as subtext.
| nobody9999 wrote:
| >Sometimes I wish English had an easy way for me to convey
| "I respect you" as subtext.
|
| I find that sir/ma'am plus politeness (please, thank you,
| etc.) works nicely.
|
| While there is the chance that you might misgender someone
| with that, that's not very common (at least for me) as long
| as you, you know, pay attention.
|
| That said unless they have a note tattooed on their
| forehead with their preferred term of address, I can only
| use non-language cues to determine the appropriate term.
|
| On the rare occasions where I use the wrong term and am
| corrected, I am fastidious in adhering to the requested
| term(s).
|
| None of that's is rocket surgery, just simple respect for
| other humans IMHO.
| silenced_trope wrote:
| Relevant:
|
| Nathan Fielder's show "The Rehearsal" on HBO recently released
| season 2, the entire season is about airline cockpit dynamics
| between the first officer and the pilot.
| throw55653s2 wrote:
| That sounds like pop science. I find it funny culture is used
| to describe why things fail in Asia, but when things fail in
| the West, it's because of that individual person's actions.
| subarctic wrote:
| Kind of makes sense when you think about it, since if the
| person is describing it in English at least there's a good
| chance they are from the West.
| ignoramous wrote:
| Also: PIA 8303 https://www.dailyo.in/variety/pakistan-flight-
| crash-pia-flig...
| anonymars wrote:
| BTW, the magnificent Admiral Cloudberg has an article on this
| one:
|
| https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/insanity-in-the-air-
| the-...
| kristofferR wrote:
| This has been a pretty common reason for accidents all over the
| world. It's one of the most important reason CRM (Crew Resource
| Management) has been so instrumental at preventing accidents in
| aviation.
|
| CRM is basically a system of cockpit communication and
| coordination techniques developed to prevent accidents caused
| by poor teamwork or hierarchical barriers between pilots - like
| requiring pilots to ask for input from co-pilots in difficult
| situations.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crew_resource_management
| beardyw wrote:
| 'Using "you" in Korean is quite interesting since the direct
| translation neo / neo is often too rude'
|
| This is most likely an equivalent to thee/thou which was
| considered rude to use for one's superiors or elders as in:
|
| "Don't tha "thee" me!" - it's ok for me to use for you but not
| t'other way round.
|
| Now many believe thou/thee to be respectful because of the bible,
| where in fact it is used as familiarity.
| kijin wrote:
| Korean age is a hack that helps ease the friction that all those
| rules of seniority and different speech levels impose on us.
|
| It gives you an age bracket within which everyone is equal, once
| and for all, regardless of their exact date of birth. Your friend
| isn't suddenly going to speak down to you when he turns 7 and
| you're still 6, except perhaps as a joke. Both of you are 8 in
| Korean age, and will turn 9 at the exact same moment. This age
| bracket produces a stable peer group who can remain friends for
| life, regardless of when or where individuals went to school, got
| a job, or enlisted in the army -- all the other places where
| hierarchy can be imposed.
|
| Of course, the year is also important for reasons of
| superstition. There are still some elderly people who ask for the
| (Chinese zodiac) animal associated with your year of birth,
| instead of the year itself.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| I'm surprised they ask for the year directly. My impression is
| that in China, if you want to know someone's age, you ask for the
| animal of their birth year. That gives you the year mod 12, which
| you're expected to be able to resolve to a particular year
| yourself.
| tdeck wrote:
| I've read that it's considered perfectly OK to ask someone's
| salary in China, so it's interesting that asking a person's
| birth year would be sensitive.
| whensean wrote:
| From the perspective of national and social development, this is
| definitely a dross culture. This system similar to hierarchy
| seemingly increases the courtesy among people. However, it more
| often leads to age bullying, blind obedience to the elders, and
| hinders resistance and innovation.
|
| Influenced by Confucian culture, China doesn't have such a
| perverted etiquette system at all.
| 4gotunameagain wrote:
| Typical cultural superiority bias.
|
| Every way has its pros and cons. Having an age related
| hierarchy might have benefits like societal coherence or
| stability. I am not a proponent of it, I just acknowledge my
| inability to fully grasp the impact and ramifications as to
| label one as superior and the other as "perverted".
| cess11 wrote:
| If you think hierarchy is natural and good you're a
| conservative or some other kind of reactionary.
|
| Hierarchies invite revolt and need a lot of force to keep in
| place.
| 4gotunameagain wrote:
| I did not talk about natural, I did not talk about good.
|
| If you think there are no hierarchies _everywhere_ , then
| we have a completely different worldview.
| mock-possum wrote:
| It's sounds like we're running into the is/ought problem
| - just because there _is_ hierarchy doesn't mean that's
| the way it _ought_ to be.
| ZephyrBlu wrote:
| In the modern day, Korean culture is absolutely cooked. There
| is a reason their birth rates are so terrible. Talking to
| Koreans and consuming even just a little bit of media about
| Korea makes some of the problems pretty obvious.
| Ray20 wrote:
| >benefits like societal coherence or stability
|
| The situation looks exactly the opposite if you look at the
| birth rate in the Korea.
| 4gotunameagain wrote:
| I obviously did not mean numerical stability.
| Noelia- wrote:
| I find it really interesting how much weight that simple question
| "What year were you born?" carries in Korean social life. A
| Korean friend once told me that it's not about prying into your
| private life, it's about figuring out how to talk to you and what
| to call you.
|
| It also made me realize that a lot of the small social details we
| take for granted might seem really jarring or even rude in
| another culture.
| Leftium wrote:
| Koreans have some "hacks" to get around this (age-based) social
| hierarchy:
|
| 1. Some workplaces use English names (and even English language)
| so co-workers can speak/refer to each other without using the
| social hierarchy constructs built into the Korean language.
|
| 2. Social (partnered) dance clubs go by nicknames for the same
| reason. Even though I dance with them on a regular basis, I don't
| know most of my dance friends' real names. I'm not aware of any
| other country where dancers do this.
| rafram wrote:
| > Some workplaces use English names (and even English language)
| so co-workers can speak/refer to each other without using the
| social hierarchy constructs built into the Korean language.
|
| That's so interesting. It reminds me very vaguely of Indians
| escaping the caste hierarchy by converting to Islam or
| Buddhism. Sometimes the easiest way out of a restrictive system
| in your culture is just to switch cultural contexts entirely.
| kwillets wrote:
| Kakao ended the English names a year or so ago due to
| inevitable confusion, but now people are supposed to add the
| "nim" (dear) suffix to each other's Korean names instead, which
| sounds creepy.
|
| The funny part of the Kakao CEO asking to be called Brian is
| that there was a K-drama (Search WWW) with a fictional tech
| company, but they also made the CEO name Brian. I suspect if
| this idea had gone on every CEO would be called Brian.
| donkeylazy456 wrote:
| yeah i agree with being even with coworkers but calling them
| with english name sounds seriously cringe. I do not prefer.
| jjani wrote:
| Never heard someone saying nim sounds creepy, it's very
| commonplace in tech companies, Kakao was far from the first
| to introduce this. I've worked at a place where everyone was
| ..nim and no one cared.
| lifthrasiir wrote:
| > 1. Some workplaces use English names (and even English
| language) so co-workers can speak/refer to each other without
| using the social hierarchy constructs built into the Korean
| language.
|
| This is intended but didn't work as such, because wording only
| constitutes a small part of the whole social hierarchy.
| Leftium wrote:
| It can also be considered rude to use the more formal style of
| speech when the social hierarchy dictates the informal style
| should be used.
|
| The book Using Korean[1] gives a detailed explanation of how
| formal speech indicates social distance more than simple
| politeness:
|
| > [jondaesmal] indicates a psychological distance between the
| speaker and the hearer... a couple in a romantic relationship who
| normally use an intimate casual style with each other will
| suddenly switch to a formal style after they fight, to
| demonstrate the distance they feel from each other.
|
| From a related discussion:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/Korean/comments/vcusut/comment/icj2...
|
| [1]:
| https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=2ggVsnUCbiAC&lpg=PA17&pg...
| blissofbeing wrote:
| It's interesting that someone like a boss would be further away
| from you and not a friend, how would you talk to your boss that
| is also your friend?
| Leftium wrote:
| I suppose it would depend on the exact people and
| circumstances: the "social distance" can be very subjective.
|
| - The same situation with different people or the same people
| in a different situation may result in different speech
| levels.
|
| - If an older person feels really close to a junior, they may
| even ask them to "lower their speech."
|
| There was a documentary about a much older Korean working for
| a very young boss. This resulted in a conflict: age hierarchy
| vs role hierarchy. They both spoke to each other in the
| formal style.
|
| And think about addressing a mix of people who are both above
| and below you in the hierarchy...
| jjani wrote:
| That isn't about the social hierarchy, it's about the switch.
| If the couple would always use jondaesmal - which is not the
| norm nowadays but still a large enough minority that it's not
| weird - then obviously it'd be a switch to banmal that would be
| shocking; in fact it would sound even worse to suddenly do so
| during a fight.
| bitbasher wrote:
| Japanese also has a number of social systems and expectations
| that can be tricky to navigate as an outsider.
|
| When I was younger and studying Japanese I used to play a popular
| Japanese MMORPG. It was popular among middle aged individuals
| (25-50).
|
| I was lucky enough to meet a Japanese clan leader that invited me
| into one of the largest clans in the game. Fast forward a year or
| so-- and a new player joined the clan.
|
| One day the new player flipped out on me in our clan chat. Our
| clan leaders told her I wasn't Japanese and to cut me some slack.
| She refused to believe I was a foreigner.
|
| On the one hand I was proud. My Japanese was good enough for
| someone to think I wasn't a foreigner. On the other hand I was
| sad, I clearly did something wrong.
|
| The clan leader spoke to me in a 1:1 fashion and tried to
| explain. It wasn't the language I used, but more or less how I
| interacted with the more senior clan members. I would often
| suggest things we could do or ask if they wanted to do something.
| In reality, it was expected to do small talk and wait for senior
| clan members to suggest something to do. I was crossing some
| social boundary...
| Llamamoe wrote:
| > I would often suggest things we could do or ask if they
| wanted to do something. In reality, it was expected to do small
| talk and wait for senior clan members to suggest something to
| do. I was crossing some social boundary...
|
| I know that this sort of shit happens in corporations and the
| government, but the idea that it crosses over into even
| multiplayer games makes me reconsider if I really want to ever
| visit Japan...
| neurostimulant wrote:
| Big clans are basically companies with hierarchical power
| structure.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| Social structures still exist in social situations. I don't
| really see what the alternative would be.
|
| I found an interesting interview on youtube of someone who
| grew up in Japan and moved to Korea:
|
| > What is your favorite thing about Korea?
|
| > I find it comfortable that Koreans are honest about their
| thoughts.
|
| > In the beginning I was hurt a lot and it was hard because
| of how honest Koreans are
|
| > What do you think is the difference between Korea and
| Japan?
|
| > First of all I think there is a difference in personality
|
| > Since I was living in Japan, up until I was 18 years old, I
| had a typical Japanese personality
|
| > Back then I couldn't speak my mind [...] and dancing was
| the only way I could express myself
|
| > [...] and I also couldn't reject [someone/something]
|
| > when my friends said we should do something, I always said
| yes
|
| > after living in Korea, I felt a lot that I need to say what
| I want and don't want to do
|
| Given that it's unacceptable to reject what a _peer_ wants to
| do in Japan, I can see where making suggestions to a superior
| would cause problems.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPqqwrZqjK8
| bitbasher wrote:
| This is exactly what I ran into-- it's something you learn
| by experience/living through it. Unfortunately, no amount
| of text books can really prepare you for that.
|
| It's weird. I knew thousands of kanji. I could conjugate
| like the best of them. I could read and discuss classic
| Japanese literature. I could read and explain classic
| Japanese grammar and the root of modern grammar.
|
| What I couldn't do? A simple social situation.
| wccrawford wrote:
| As an obvious foreigner, you are 100% exempt from all this.
| In fact, if you get it right, it'll make them feel weird and
| they'll try to avoid that.
|
| I read a story once about someone who went to McDonalds in
| Japanese, and the clerk flipped the menu to the English side.
| The person flipped it back over, and the clerk _flipped it to
| English again!_ They simply couldn 't believe the foreigner
| could read it.
|
| And I've read stories of people who didn't act like a
| "gaijin" (foreigner) and people didn't know how to interact
| with them, and the person finally just accepted it and acted
| like they expected a gaijin to act, and then everything was
| fine.
|
| Seriously, just go. They were _incredibly_ nice to us while
| we were there visiting.
| jjani wrote:
| > As an obvious foreigner, you are 100% exempt from all
| this. In fact, if you get it right, it'll make them feel
| weird and they'll try to avoid that.
|
| Are you sure? In Korea, everyone who seriously cares about
| this stuff absolutely prefer it if you get all of it right.
| Of course, plenty of people (probably most under 30)
| secretly hate it and are therefore thankful if you don't
| get it right as it gives them a semi-out to be slightly
| more loose as well.
|
| > I read a story once about someone who went to McDonalds
| in Japanese, and the clerk flipped the menu to the English
| side. The person flipped it back over, and the clerk
| flipped it to English again! They simply couldn't believe
| the foreigner could read it.
|
| > And I've read stories of people who didn't act like a
| "gaijin" (foreigner) and people didn't know how to interact
| with them, and the person finally just accepted it and
| acted like they expected a gaijin to act, and then
| everything was fine.
|
| Not trying to be rude but this pretty much tells me your
| first claim is likely wrong. Plenty of the exact same
| stories abound about Korea, especially online, yet they're
| both outdated and very cherry-picked. They're real, they
| happen (I've experienced them myself), but 99% of people
| would strongly prefer it if you were fluent in the language
| and followed every procedure as "normally" as possible.
| balanced2 wrote:
| It's not surprising at all because I guess as one would
| expect, schoolyard rules applies in a game, not company
| rules. Seniority is still going strong at school, perhaps
| since the age difference is low or because there is lower
| opportunity for merit-based respect.
|
| At companies, basically everyone should be speaking polite
| Japanese regardless of seniority. Harassment has been a big
| deal and companies have gotten a lot stricter on it these
| past years, so at large corporations there will be far less
| of senior members talking down to low members as did happen
| before. One reason companies can change like this is at most,
| HR is a much stronger org than product, i.e. the ideal career
| path for a manager tends to be to move from product to HR, at
| least at the ones we wouldn't refer to as "tech companies".
|
| SMBs will still feel quite old though since they don't have
| strong HR like the big companies. I don't know much about
| government but do have the impression that they would also
| still have these issues. But I think corporate Japan has
| gotten a lot better than you might be thinking.
| MrLeap wrote:
| I co-run a guild in WoW right now on the anniversary server
| with >150 members.
|
| It's people who play these games and almost any weirdness you
| can imagine that could exist in a person in real life gets
| brought into these games.
|
| Often it's magnified because of the pseudo anonymity. We've
| only been "big" for a few months and a handful of things
| we've already ran into would make you not want to visit
| several western hemisphere countries if held to the same
| standard. :)
| DanielHB wrote:
| As a Brazilian kid I played WoW with an American guild. One
| day people were doing some trash talking and I threw the
| line "it is all Obama fault" thinking it was funny because
| I often heard that from TV due to all the political drama
| in the US at the time. The conversation wasn't about
| politics at all.
|
| My guild leader pulled me aside and seriously said to not
| bring politics into it haha. My first big culture shock of
| my life.
|
| In Brazil it is quite common (at the time at least) to just
| blame the government for everything, no matter who is in
| government.
|
| The second was that apparently wearing speedos is not
| socially acceptable in most a lot of the first world
| beaches anymore.
| readthenotes1 wrote:
| 'Using "you" in Korean is quite interesting since the direct
| translation neo / neo is often too rude.'
|
| That makes me wonder how the preferred third person pronoun
| movement works in Korea...
| Leftium wrote:
| It doesn't really exist because Korean pronouns don't have any
| gender attached to them.
| readthenotes1 wrote:
| That's the best solution, of course. Almost never does it
| clarify...
| JohnFen wrote:
| What would be the polite way to decline to answer the question?
| Is that even possible?
| aspenmayer wrote:
| "I don't give out that information (as a matter of
| principle/because my mother told me not to/because people close
| to me have been victims of identity theft/because I'm old
| enough to know better)." Or some variation thereof. It's enough
| to say that you don't because you choose not to, but some
| people will belabor the point until you give an answer that has
| the ring of finality and can communicate that it isn't a matter
| of debate, but a matter of conscience, or rationale, or
| whatever principle(s) guide you.
|
| Or you could provide a joke answer that is absurdly high or low
| or wrong, like saying that you weren't born yesterday, or that
| you were born at night, but not last night, or in the day, but
| not yesterday. This might work for those who you are closer
| with personally, but some may find this kind of answer
| dismissive and will persist or get upset. If in doubt, use the
| principle-based approach I mentioned above instead or in
| addition to the joke one, as a way of showing that you're
| answering in good faith and take their question seriously as
| asked.
| daft_pink wrote:
| I've been told the one reason why Japanese is so hard to learn is
| because there is an underlying etiquette and social hierarchy
| built into the language and it is not simply being able to
| understand and speak the words.
|
| Native speakers tolerate errors when it's obvious someone is non-
| native, but become offended when they speak it perfectly, but
| screw up the social heirarchy, so it's extremely hard to progress
| beyond a certain point.
| gyomu wrote:
| Heh that's overstated. As a non Asian foreigner*, you get a lot
| of leeway for making mistakes when speaking Japanese, as it is
| somehow ingrained in the subconscious here that Japanese is
| very special and very complicated and a foreigner trying to
| speak it is already doing something near impossible.
|
| If your Japanese is near flawless except for the honorific
| register that would strike people as weird, but then what did
| you do to end up speaking flawless Japanese without ever
| properly internalizing honorific Japanese?
|
| *(If you are an Asian foreigner, you are subject to many other
| layers of prejudice unrelated to your language ability)
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| My grandmother spent a lot of time in Japan, and she reported
| that everyone was very accommodating initially, but that over
| time the expectation developed that after being there for so
| long she should have learned the correct way to behave.
| gyomu wrote:
| Yes, but that's more about manners and being part of a
| community than language skills. You can speak shit Japanese
| and still be involved with your local community and be
| accepted and appreciated, for sure.
| lvl155 wrote:
| Koreans from Korea often do not follow this rule outside of the
| country. They basically use it whenever it benefits them. So in
| essence this aspect of the culture is pretty much...BS.
| dkga wrote:
| I find it surprising actually how much these seniority rules are
| well-defined in many cultures, but in Brazil there is strong
| variation - even in the same geography. For example, a colleague
| who is learning Brazilian Portuguese was under the impression
| that "voce" and "tu" were the equivalent of "vous/tu" or
| "Sie/du". In reality, they are just different regional ways of
| saying the informal you. In Brazilian Portuguese is to call
| someone "o Senhor/a Senhora" based on their gender, with a
| singular third person declination. And in the countryside, it is
| common to hear people use "Doutor/Doutora" the same way they
| would use the normal formal language when addressing educated
| people or land-owners.
|
| Another example many people outside Brazil find interesting: in
| my family we were taught to never use the formal towards anyone.
| The rationale is that everyone is equal and that using the formal
| language was disrespectful because it created an artificial
| distance between us and the other person. We were also taught
| never to use the formal language when praying for the same
| reason. However, other people are taught to use the formal
| language towards bosses and elders, also with a respect
| rationale, and some other folks in Brazil (even from big cities)
| actually require that their children address them with formal
| language. So now when in doubt I use the formal language with
| people that are much older than I am although that feels utterly
| unnatural to me, but I always make people comfortable to use the
| informal with me as I personally find this to be more respectful.
|
| Just one more comment: in Brazil it is unfortunately the case
| that some offices have a standard treatment like "your
| excellency", etc, which are nominally meant to respect the office
| but in reality become a kind of test of compliance and obedience.
| I recall in particular one incident where an attorney presenting
| in front of the Supreme Court was severely reprimanded for not
| address justices with the proper term. Personally, I am not sure
| that required compliance with a style - by regulation or by
| societal expectations - is indeed "respect" if it is not matched
| with actions and posture that really reflect due consideration
| towards the other person.
| inerte wrote:
| Or the judge who sued his condominium demanding its employees
| call him "doutor" (Your Honor)...
|
| As a Brazilian raised to not care about this stuff, I would say
| even rebelled a bit, it was weird to basically be required to
| do so once I reached adulthood. I remember getting in front of
| a sheriff and having to address him as "doutor". I remember
| talking to an intern in law firms and he corrected me when I
| addressed him by name saying, "No, it's DOUTOR Adriano".
|
| Gee, let's not even mention the medical field... veterinarians
| and nutritionists want to be called "doutor"...
| yxhuvud wrote:
| The Germans are also pretty ridiculous around titles, in that
| not only can you have multiple titles, and each are
| mentioned, but you can also have several copies of each. So
| someone can be Herr Doktor Doktor Professor.
| dserodio wrote:
| But "Doctor" means you have an actual PhD, a doctorate.
| That's a worthy title, IMHO
| fy20 wrote:
| My country has a fairly high % of PhD holders, but
| nowhere near enough jobs for them, so they end up getting
| regular jobs (e.g. I have a friend who got a PhD in laser
| physics, who now plays with AI models for license plate
| recognition).
|
| These people usually leave the PhD off their CV, as some
| employers frown upon it, as they think the person will
| have higher expectations and be hard to work with.
| hulitu wrote:
| > These people usually leave the PhD off their CV, as
| some employers frown upon it, as they think the person
| will have higher expectations and be hard to work with.
|
| Most of them are hard to work with. As is with any people
| that climb on titles. They consider themselves special.
| That's why it is difficult for them to integrate in a
| team.
| ivell wrote:
| Not my personal experience. Many of whom I have worked
| with are quite friendly and open.
|
| PhDs are not take just for social climbing. Many were
| genuinely interested in the subject until they got
| disillusioned..
| helsinki8 wrote:
| Your example seems kinda funny.
|
| Most people would think working on AI models for computer
| vision problems is a perfectly reasonable outcome for a
| STEM PhD, even if it's not a direct continuation of the
| thesis research.
|
| Turning a physics PhD into any sort of modeling,
| statistical analysis or engineering work is pretty normal
| in the US. I wouldn't be surprised if there are more
| physics PhDs working in finance than academia and
| government research labs.
| signal11 wrote:
| That's really interesting. Re medical field -- by contrast
| surgeons in the UK are called "Mr" (Mister) or "Ms", for
| historical reasons.
| DanielHB wrote:
| I moved from Brazil to Sweden and it is hard talking to
| medical doctors, it is so indoctrinated into us.
|
| me: Hi Doctor... I have X problem, Doctor. Could you give me
| some treatment, Doctor?
|
| Doctor: You can just call me Ana
|
| me: Yes Doctor Ana
|
| Even for professionals that don't have titles if they have
| authority over you, you need to use the title. VERY evident
| when talking to police officers always say "Senhor" (sir),
| police have the power to really screw with you without any
| reason so better to show respect. You never know when you run
| into a police officer who enjoys screwing people over.
| tdeck wrote:
| > Another example many people outside Brazil find interesting:
| in my family we were taught to never use the formal towards
| anyone. The rationale is that everyone is equal and that using
| the formal language was disrespectful because it created an
| artificial distance between us and the other person. We were
| also taught never to use the formal language when praying for
| the same reason.
|
| Interestingly this is why Quakers continued to address people
| as thou/thee long after everyone else abandoned the practice.
| Thou was originally the "informal" second person singular
| pronoun in English, "you" was plural. People used "thou" (the
| familiar form) in conversations with God. People used "you" as
| a singular pronoun to be polite. Eventually, "you" overtook
| thou.
|
| But the Quakers believed that using "you" to show respect was
| anti-egalitarian and resisted the trend for a long time.
|
| Nowadays because "thou" appears a lot in the King James Bible
| it tends to be associated with formal, archaic language, so if
| anything the connotation is the reverse.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou
| triceratops wrote:
| > People used "thou" (the familiar form) in conversations
| with God. People used "you" as a singular pronoun to be
| polite.
|
| Why didn't people address God with "you"?
| tdeck wrote:
| The wiki article I linked goes into it a bit:
|
| > Early English translations of the Bible used the familiar
| singular form of the second person, which mirrors common
| usage trends in other languages. The familiar and singular
| form is used when speaking to God in French (in
| Protestantism both in past and present, in Catholicism
| since the post-Vatican II reforms), German, Spanish,
| Italian, Portuguese, Scottish Gaelic and many others (all
| of which maintain the use of an "informal" singular form of
| the second person in modern speech). In addition, the
| translators of the King James Version of the Bible
| attempted to maintain the distinction found in Biblical
| Hebrew, Aramaic and Koine Greek between singular and plural
| second-person pronouns and verb forms, so they used thou,
| thee, thy, and thine for singular, and ye, you, your, and
| yours for plural.
| triceratops wrote:
| That doesn't really explain why people used a more
| familiar form with God, literally the most powerful
| anything, than they would with mere strangers.
| shemtay wrote:
| Christianity began as an episode of Undercover Boss, so
| it makes perfect sense.
| aclindsa wrote:
| I won't claim this as the one true answer, but one
| potential reason is that it is encouraged by many
| religions, including Christian denominations, to have a
| personal relationship with God. To put it another way, it
| is exactly God's power which enables God to have a
| personal relationship with each of us while we,
| constrained by our own humanity, are only capable of
| maintaining familiarity with a relatively small number of
| people.
| tough wrote:
| God is omnipotent and omnipresent after all
| tdeck wrote:
| It's just a cultural tradition. Not sure what kind of
| answer you're expecting here.
| kstrauser wrote:
| I feel like the American version of intra-family respect
| variations is "Father" vs "Dad".
|
| In my family growing up, my dad's name was "Dad" from my POV.
| "Father" was a strange-to-me formality that only a couple of my
| friends' families use. "Hey Dad, wanna grab lunch?" is
| technically using a title of respect, but feels way different
| than "Hello, Father. Would you like to make lunch plans?"
|
| My kids call me Dad, unless we're greeting each other like
| Jerry and Newman on Seinfeld to be funny, which is something
| always initiated by them: "Hello, _Father_." "Hello,
| _Daughter_." _kid giggles_
|
| One time I heard my kid talking to his dad and calling him
| "Sir". That felt utterly foreign to me. If I called my own dad
| "Sir", he'd rightfully have assumed I was being a smartass.
| There's never another situation where I'd address him that way.
| JoeJonathan wrote:
| Funnily enough, voce itself _was_ once more formal, having been
| a contraction of "vossa merce."
|
| I'm surprised to hear that your family did not use formal
| language even in prayer. May I ask what religion(s) you grew up
| practicing? Catholic prayers often use antiquated, formal
| language (like "vos"). I don't know enough about Candomble, but
| at least Nago Candomble is pretty highly formalized in the
| sense that Yoruba is the liturgical language.
|
| The "Doutor/Doutora" thing bothers me. I see it all the time
| with my in-laws empregadas, who use it to refer to my father-
| in-law (who's an MD) and my mother-in-law (who isn't). It feels
| weirdly obsequious in that context, even though there's a very
| clear power and class hierarchy.
| OJFord wrote:
| A not dissimilar age thing I've found interesting is from India:
| it is (or can be? Big country) typical to age yourself by the
| year of life you're in, i.e. 1-based rather than 0-based,
| basically.
|
| On his birthday my grandfather in law said 'I am x years old!
| [...] Oh, no, x-1 _complete_. '
|
| It's funny these kinds of arbitrary systems for things we have,
| and never question, until you suddenly stumble into one that's
| slightly different.
| xenadu02 wrote:
| In the USA as a low-level employee address the company CEO as
| "heya phil, hows it going?". Then address your friend with "Hello
| Mr. Smith". In most cases you won't get a positive reaction out
| of either one of those (yes exceptions exist).
|
| How about this: address your husband/wife as "Mr/Mrs <lastname>",
| especially after a fight. Similarly when the kids have been doing
| something or you are frustrated with your partner say " _your_
| son did X ".
|
| Every language has explicit and implicit rules for expressing
| honor, respect, and closeness. Informal systems can vary more
| often and be more fluid but they always exist.
| drchickensalad wrote:
| Gotta love when you're in a 2,000 person public company, and
| you can still "heya Phil" despite not being a personal friend
| at all, and he even prefers it
| losvedir wrote:
| I actually think "heya phil" is more the norm than not.
| Certainly in tech that's the case. For example, we address the
| CEO of the company I work at (small but public) by her first
| name. From tuning into investor calls from my days in finance
| it's even common at non-tech companies.
| DiggyJohnson wrote:
| Small tech firms are notorious outliers when it comes to this
| though
| 90s_dev wrote:
| Unless you work for Conan O'Brien.
|
| A fan saw him and briefly chatted, then Conan asked if he
| wanted a photo.
|
| The man said "sure, Mr. O'Brien," to which Conan replied,
| "please, call me _sir_. "
| bityard wrote:
| Coming from a comedian, is there any possibility that was a
| joke?
| 90s_dev wrote:
| Great question, I'm glad you asked!
| anonymars wrote:
| Surely they can't _both_ exhibit Poe 's law!
| andrewl wrote:
| It absolutely was. He likes playing the pompous buffoon. He
| will also ask you to call him Dr O'Brien or Admiral
| O'Brien.
| dyauspitr wrote:
| He's made that joke a few times. It's taking the respect
| implied in calling him Mr. O'Brien and turning the regular
| "you can just call me Conan" into something that is
| humorously asking the person for something _more_ respectful.
| bityard wrote:
| I could be off-base here because I've been in tech too long but
| my understanding was that addressing people formally as
| Mr/Mrs/Ms has been outmoded in business virtually everywhere
| except in legal matters and (sometimes) when you work for a
| company and are speaking directly to one of your customers.
|
| Everywhere I've been and observed, it's always been, "Good
| Morning, <firstname>" or similar regardless of who is talking
| to who on the org chart. (This doesn't mean you should talk
| like a surfer dude, of course.)
| tharkun__ wrote:
| Agreed, this isn't a US or English only thing.
|
| There are other languages that make this distinction. French.
| German. Just as other examples.
|
| But as soon as you're past the interview, with your regular
| colleagues you're not gonna be on a "vous" or "Sie" basis.
| Maybe with your boss' boss or something, sure. Well maybe
| also with your boss if he's a dang stickler.
|
| And it's been like that for well over 40 years.
| tasty_freeze wrote:
| A few years back I had a long back and forth (and productive)
| email exchange with an older engineer (in his 50s, like I was
| at the time) on a matter of a particular old computer. He lives
| in a former soviet state. At some point he mentioned job
| prospects in his country are limited and was willing to
| relocate. He had excellent English and as a fellow nerd who
| loves getting into the low level details, I thought he might be
| a fit at my large & successful US-based company that has
| offices all over the world. I said I'd be happy to forward his
| resume to my employer.
|
| A few weeks later HR contacted me: Uh, that was really
| painfully awkward. The HR person had called to phone screen him
| and called him "Vlad" or whatever in greeting. The prospective
| employee went on a rant and said he had never been so
| disrespected, and it made a terrible impression of how
| unprofessional my company was by being so cavalier by using his
| first name.
|
| Needless to say that was the end of the interview process, and
| I never heard from the guy again. Even if he was a technical
| fit, the cultural fit was off the charts wrong.
| edoceo wrote:
| HR at multi-national not aware of culture. Is that ironic?
| balanced2 wrote:
| It's normal - at least for the big US companies, even with
| a large presence the culture is highly American. I remember
| when a VP of APAC sent a org email expressing strong
| feelings about the Black Lives Matter protests, and it was
| quite awkward since that wasn't really an issue discussed
| outside the US - he couldn't even understand how it
| couldn't be an issue for everyone.
|
| Getting to hit the culture filter very early in interviews
| is probably a better outcome than ending up at the company
| and feeling awkward, not sure how intentional that is
| though.
| hulitu wrote:
| > about the Black Lives Matter protests, and it was quite
| awkward since that wasn't really an issue discussed
| outside the US
|
| Maybe outside of NATO. In EU we knew more about Black
| Lives Matter protests than about local news.
| dale_huevo wrote:
| > The HR person had called to phone screen him and called him
| "Vlad" or whatever in greeting.
|
| Is that measurably worse than the current new normal? Call
| him Mr. Vladsky, tell him he's a great fit and schedule an
| interview, then block his number and email and never contact
| him again.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| That's preferable to running the gauntlet of six+
| interviews because they can't make a decision after two.
| rawgabbit wrote:
| I am not sure about that. I am a low level employee and I
| address the CEO and the occasional board member I meet on a
| first name basis.
|
| I grew up in Texas with its culture of sir and ma'am. After
| leaving the military, I make it a point to address everyone on
| a first name basis. Doctor Dan. Father Frank. Nurse Nancy.
|
| On the other hand, old habits are hard to shake. When someone
| is extra nice to me, I often address them as sir and ma'am even
| when I am much older than they are. I also get irritated when a
| young salesman addresses me by my first name and attempts to
| upsell me.
| xenadu02 wrote:
| I put "exceptions exist" in my original post because I knew
| the pedants would jump on me with their individual anecdotes
| :)
|
| The trouble with informal systems (which is how I personally
| classify English) is that practices and expectations vary a
| lot across every context you can imagine. It can vary between
| regions. Between demographic groups (eg age). On and on.
|
| I suppose that isn't a surprise. Language is always evolving.
| Perhaps we are still in a transition phase (in US English)
| and haven't really settled on a new set of rules yet. See
| what some other replies have noted about using formal
| addresses vs first names in business scenarios.
|
| FWIW this is hardly the first time. At one point ge
| (pronounced yee) was the informal pronoun, you the formal
| one. Saying "you" to your mates or lover would be extremely
| rude, implying distance. But you might use it if you were mad
| at them. But then it became a fad (probably among the kids)
| to use the formal pronoun. That eventually led to the loss of
| the informal pronoun entirely. I like to imagine kids and
| teens running around addressing everyone as "your majesty"
| ironically - because you can't call them out for being polite
| and formal even if that polite formality was opposite in
| intention. Being a smartass is a time-honored tradition :)
| yongjik wrote:
| According to a popular quote, "Languages differ essentially in
| what they must convey, not in what they may convey."
|
| You _can_ convey relative social position in English, if you
| want to. You don 't have to, if you don't want to.
|
| Korean is different. You _have_ to convey relative social
| position in basically every sentence because without that you
| can 't finish your main verb.
|
| In English, you can't offend a reasonable person by saying "I
| heard it's getting hotter today!" or "How big was the pizza?"
| In Korean, you can. Because there's no socially neutral version
| of "How big was the pizza" you can use to everyone.
|
| * Well, you may think it's an absurdly cumbersome grammatical
| system, and in some situations it really is, but generally you
| get used to, just like English speakers are used to having to
| know and specify the gender of everyone around them, including
| cats and dogs, and it generally doesn't cause issues - but then
| sometimes it does!
| xenadu02 wrote:
| > Korean is different. You have to convey relative social
| position in basically every sentence because without that you
| can't finish your main verb.
|
| Sure, by the currently recorded official rules of the
| grammar.
|
| If young Koreans just stop doing it then it will disappear
| within a decade or two - something only crusty old people
| bother with. Not that I have any say in such things.
|
| I find the process fascinating though. I like to imagine what
| English was like when grammatical cases were being dropped
| from the language. Who decided to drop them and why? Kids
| being funny? People from different regions having difficulty
| understanding accents or vowel changes? What would someone at
| age 50, having used cases their entire life, think about
| everyone from London or everyone under 20 (or whatever cohort
| popularized it) when they just said all the words "wrong"?
| And when chided for speaking incorrectly just shrugged their
| shoulders and continued doing it?
|
| On the other hand despite everyone agreeing that English
| spelling royally sucks... no one cares to make major changes
| to it. Even when writing informally in text messages or
| whatever. We all just keep going along with the system.
|
| I also wonder how much computers are affecting us. Auto-
| correction may end up killing some forms of change to
| language over time. If GUIs and better input methods hadn't
| been invented so quickly would latin-based languages drop
| diacritics or consolidate some letter forms? Would languages
| like Japanese or Chinese have adopted Korean-like writing
| systems for convenience? Who knows. English dropped some
| letters because printing press letter sets came from Europe
| and didn't have those oddball letters. Who knows what
| technology might have triggered or prevented.
| kubanczyk wrote:
| > just like English speakers are used to having to know and
| specify the gender of everyone around them, including cats
| and dogs
|
| Welp, you have no idea. In German and in Slavic languages
| you'd have to know and specify the gender of every single
| noun. Is a coat the same gender as a beer, or different? Is
| orange the same gender as capitalism? Every. Single. Noun.
|
| And they have three genders, obviously.
| stavros wrote:
| Or try calling someone "buddy" with an annoyed tone.
| mikestew wrote:
| Your point is well-taken, but I've addressed two CEOs (that you
| might have heard) of by their first names, one named "Bill" and
| another one named "Steve". I still had a job for years after.
| But I was so low-level, they probably didn't even know who to
| fire.
|
| Smaller companies, OTOH, have proven to be a bit hit-or-miss.
| rascul wrote:
| I don't use titles. If you expect me to, you'll be
| disappointed.
| joshdavham wrote:
| How does this generally work with romantic relationships? Do
| people usually only start relationships if they are of the same
| age?
| fxtentacle wrote:
| Typically the girl will pretend the guy to be older, if that
| isn't the case. That's why girls in movies and K-Pop groups
| always shout "Oppa!".
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwmSjveL3Lc
|
| And you might remember the Oppa that is Gangnam Style:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bZkp7q19f0
| quesera wrote:
| > _And you might remember the Oppa that is Gangnam Style:_
|
| My cultural awareness, which is distinctly non-Asian, assumed
| that this "Oppa" had something to do with horses.
| fxtentacle wrote:
| What a brilliant comment :) I'm not sure if you're joking,
| but it certainly brightened up my day.
|
| That Gangnam Style song is about riding and the associated
| up and down motion, just not related to horses. In that
| scene where he's watching the horses, he's singing:
|
| "A true lady who is warm and human during the day, who is
| classy and knows how to enjoy a cup of coffee. But when
| night comes, her heart gets hot..." and then you see the
| horse moving its head up and down and he sings: "A lady who
| is kinky in that way"
|
| And then you see him with 2 girls in his arms and he's
| using rather suggestive language:
|
| "A man who one-shots ... his coffee. A man who won't let
| things cool down ... A man who bursts when night comes ...
| his heart. A man with few muscles and he is bulging ...
| with ideas."
|
| Also, if you pay attention to it, you can hear that both
| gangnam songs are littered with audio samples of him and
| her moaning, e.g:
|
| https://youtu.be/9bZkp7q19f0?feature=shared&t=151
|
| https://youtu.be/wcLNteez3c4?feature=shared&t=68
|
| And then there's the famous elevator scene where his lyrics
| are: "A good woman appears calm, but knows how to have fun.
| She's reasonable and when it's the right time, she will let
| her hair down ..."
|
| https://youtu.be/9bZkp7q19f0?feature=shared&t=114
| quesera wrote:
| Aha, (literal) llol. That's interesting.
|
| I am realizing now, that with no research or even
| conscious thought, I had settled on the idea that the
| song was some goofy Korean dude making a statement about
| the absurdity of late-stage capitalist sexualized excess,
| perhaps metaphorically asking who really is the horse and
| who really is the rider. And how we're all simultaneously
| instigator, enabler, beneficiary, and victim of same.
|
| I can go a few directions from here... 1.
| I'm completely wrong, because obviously. Never attribute
| to self-reflection what can equally be explained by
| misogyny. 2. I'm right! For which I present as
| evidence: the Mercedes taillights blinking in time to the
| beat, and the existence of the yellow guy. I'll accept
| credit for this theory even if the message was
| unintentional. :) 3. Neither/all of the above. The
| artist asks the question which the public misinterprets
| as the answer, etc.
|
| I don't know what to believe, but please be gentle with
| me and understand that I was raised in a culture where
| Bruce Springsteen, John Mellencamp, and Creedence
| Clearwater Revival are used as patriotic anthems at
| political rallies. Nothing is required to make sense.
| joshdavham wrote:
| Actually I just noticed that for the first time today! I was
| reading a Korean webtoon in French and the translator didn't
| translate "Oppa" but rather kept it in and explained it in a
| translator's note.
| jjani wrote:
| My entire social circle is Korean and I've never seen a same-
| age couple (or one where the girl is older) use obba.
| deadbabe wrote:
| Is it more or less beneficial to birth a Korean child on December
| 31 so they can be two years in Korean Age ASAP? Thinking about
| their career prospects, certain legal requirements etc. if older
| is better, it seems like you'd want to hit that December 31st
| birth date.
| unsignedint wrote:
| I despise the social construct that ties respect to age. As
| someone who's biologically Japanese--and coming from a culture
| that shares similar values with Korean society in this regard--I
| often find it frustrating when dealing with other Japanese
| people.
|
| Some individuals will ask your age just so they can justify
| talking down to you. I've even had cases where someone was polite
| at first, but the moment they realized they were older, their
| behavior shifted entirely. That kind of attitude is a major pet
| peeve of mine--it honestly makes me want to pull my hair out.
|
| While the younger generation tends to care less about age
| differences among peers (and thankfully avoids this behavior),
| there are still far too many people who believe age alone gives
| them the right to act superior or pretend they know better.
|
| I strongly believe respect should be earned based on character,
| not age. I make a point to be polite to everyone, regardless of
| how old they are--and that's why I don't even bother asking.
| haarolean wrote:
| Nowadays it seems more of a coping mechanism for fading
| relevance rather than respecting the actual competence.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| I did some work (military) with a couple asian nations during a
| multinational exercise. It was all done in english. What blew
| them away was how our honorifics changes not just according to
| the established hierarchies but according to location, dress and
| who else was within earshot. I had a junior guy from an asian
| nation shadowing me. He was shocked when my officer and I
| addressed each other by first names/callsigns. What stressed my
| shadow was how twenty minutes later, in a different room with
| different people, we switched to formal ranks. What further blew
| his mind was my explanation that breaks from these casual
| informalities would be a silent message. For instance, if a
| friend addressed me in private by my formal rank, I would know
| that I was in trouble ... or that someone was listening. He
| thought our culture was the more complicated. His culture had
| rules that everyone knew and followed. Our culture had rules that
| everyone knew but nobody seemed to follow.
| unstppbl wrote:
| I met a Korean classmate while studying Chinese together in
| China. We really hit it off, and on our first date she
| unexpectedly asked how old I was. When I told her I was a couple
| of years older, she gently explained that we couldn't be
| together. Well.. I couldn't understand it, feelings were mutual,
| it was like we were meant for each other, and all that was thrown
| because of age difference, how stupid.
| darkhorn wrote:
| This exists in all Uralic-Altaic languages; Turkish, Mongolian,
| Korean, Japanese, Finnish, Hungarian and Tungus. It is build in
| the language/culure.
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