[HN Gopher] Why Koreans ask what year you were born
___________________________________________________________________
Why Koreans ask what year you were born
Author : bryanhogan
Score : 122 points
Date : 2025-06-11 06:53 UTC (16 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (bryanhogan.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (bryanhogan.com)
| gnabgib wrote:
| (2024) But also:
|
| _South Koreans become younger overnight after country scraps
| 'Korean age'_ (2 years ago)
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36502797
|
| _The end of the tricky 'Korean age'_ (3 years ago)
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=33907571
| 9dev wrote:
| Those Korean kids born on December 31st must be the kings and
| queens of their peer group when they become eligible to buy
| alcohol two years ahead of the others!
| benediktwerner wrote:
| As far as I understand, they would primarily be in the same
| peer group as all other people with their Korean age.
| eloisant wrote:
| Not really because everyone starts at one, so at most it's one
| year younger those born on Jan 1st.
|
| Also their peer group usually being people born the same year,
| everyone gets to drink at the exact same time (unlike in other
| countries where everyone reach drinking age at their birthday).
| netsharc wrote:
| A friend (not Korean) said on his 29th birthday that he's
| starting his 30th year of life. It was an interesting
| perspective, because in general we celebrate our nth birthday
| after completing n years of life.
| setopt wrote:
| Personally I prefer to round 29 years 6 months up to <<I'm now
| 30 years old>>. As you would expect to happen if you run
| round(29.5). For some reason, most cultures settled on either
| floor(age) or ceil(age).
| alexey-salmin wrote:
| Which cultures settled on ceil(age)?
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| The traditional system in China and its surroundings, Xu
| Sui , is that you're born at the age of 1 and your age
| increases on the new year.
| setopt wrote:
| As the sibling comment mentioned, I was thinking of East
| Asian countries.
|
| There's another difference in that age++ there happens on
| Chinese New Year and not your own birthday, but that's an
| orthogonal point to the rounding, I think.
| bravesoul2 wrote:
| Funny how your birth day is not a birthday
| whstl wrote:
| You wouldn't remember the party anyway
| bravesoul2 wrote:
| Same with 12 months after birth
| mkl wrote:
| It's definitely a birthday, hence the name. It's the day you
| turn 0.
| netsharc wrote:
| It's a definition that could add 1 to everyone's birthday
| celebrations. A baby born on the 15th of June 2024 could be
| celebrating its 2nd birth day in a few days. Or well the
| family would. They'd celebrate the birth, and why not count
| that as a "birthday celebration".. Ha.
|
| Curiously I guess most of us celebrate the number of years
| completed.
| 1718627440 wrote:
| They would be celebrating their first anniversary.
| macintux wrote:
| This pops a lot with annual celebrations. I attended a
| commencement for my niece several years ago, and a
| speaker referred to it as the 100th annual commencement
| while a brochure referred to it as the 100th anniversary.
| Pick one.
| Muromec wrote:
| Seventh hour is everything between 6:01 and 6:59, yes.
| srean wrote:
| Yes.
|
| That is why half open sets, half open intervals, are
| convenient.
|
| If a bus leaves every 10 minutes starting at 1 PM, how many
| buses leave per hour ? Do we include the 2PM bus in the first
| hour ?
|
| It helps to cover the space by non-overlapping equal
| intervals.
|
| Shows up in 0 indexed for loops as well i < n
| BenjiWiebe wrote:
| Everything between 6 and 7, right? ;)
| alexey-salmin wrote:
| > in general we celebrate our nth birthday after completing n
| years of life.
|
| Well it's literally like you say: your friend will "celebrate
| his 30th birthday after completing 30 years of life". If the
| 30th birthday happens after 30 years of life, then the 30th
| year of life happens before the 30th birthday.
| johannes1234321 wrote:
| Well my day of birth isn't my 1st birthday ... it is somewhat
| messed up.
| kijin wrote:
| According to a traditional East Asian world view, your life is
| influenced by the powers that govern each unit of time -- hour,
| day, month, year -- that you pass through.
|
| Under this system, the number of distinct powers that you were
| influenced by is more important than the exact number of days
| or years that you spent on this planet. Korean culture is still
| saturated with this stuff. You can DM a shaman your date of
| birth, and they'll use this kind of system to tell your
| fortunes.
| bambax wrote:
| > _The younger person also addresses the older person, usually
| with a title or another word that fits their relationship, but
| not their name. Only the older person addresses the younger one
| with their name. (There can be more nuance.)_
|
| I love this. I'm an old French guy and still can't quite accept
| when srangers in an email (or a machine, a system, a web form)
| adress me using my first name.
|
| Being "on a first name basis" still has meaning for me -- or it
| would, if it had for anyone else, which clearly is absolutely not
| the case anymore.
| allendoerfer wrote:
| Cultural imperialism.
| myst wrote:
| The meaning was never there in the first place, you just were
| taught that it is there. Adapt.
| lmm wrote:
| All language is socially constructed. It's still annoying
| when people try to change the meanings of words.
| BDPW wrote:
| That's literally all language.
| benediktwerner wrote:
| Interesting, as a German (which also has a similar system), I
| am the complete opposite, I find it super irritating when
| people address me by my last name. And the worst part is having
| to figure out how to address others, especially people you've
| known for a while but aren't really close to, e.g. say long-
| time neighbors I rarely meet.
|
| Luckily, in the IT industry, it's common to just use first
| names with everybody.
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| It's quite common, even the norm these days, to address
| people by their first names in professional settings, among
| colleagues.
|
| The thing is that this is also becoming/has become the norm
| when you get correspondance from strangers when the standard
| etiquette is to use title + surname, as in all European
| countries, I suppose.
|
| Now, I think when people address you by your surname only,
| either orally or in writing, it _is_ irritating.
| ncruces wrote:
| Well, I personally find title + surname the worst; it's
| obnoxious and elitist; my (first) name isn't "engineer". I
| can live with it, though. I just kinda hate people who
| demand it of others.
|
| So, clearly, you can't please everybody.
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| By title I mean "Mister", etc. Perhaps "Engineer" is a
| German thing ;)
| ncruces wrote:
| And then you must know (if this is a system: _store_ )
| the person's preferred gender, and in some cultures
| marital status.
| fmbb wrote:
| Not all European countries. We phased the title and surname
| addressing out during the 70s here in Sweden:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Du-reformen
|
| Personally I get annoyed only if a sales person addresses
| me by first name. There is no other setting where I would
| prefer a stranger to address me using my full name, unless
| we're in some context where there are dozens or hundreds of
| strangers so one can not expect my name is unique.
| bryanhogan wrote:
| I appreciate that too at my former university in Germany,
| it's kinda "very modern" and people always use their first
| names for everything, professors and students alike. But it
| gets complicated when emailing professors that are only
| losely related to the uni.
| sumanthvepa wrote:
| It's interesting. My closest friends use my last name, while
| everyone else uses my first name at work. Apparently it was a
| hangover from the custom at old British public schools that
| some old Indian schools retained into the 70s/80s. I sort of
| like it.
| Tor3 wrote:
| Same here, but the reason is simple - there was a bunch of
| people with the same first name in my class (1st grade). So
| we all went by our last name. And, as those still are close
| friends of mine, after all these decades, they (and
| everyone else I know from that time) use my last name when
| addressing me. And other people sometimes pick it up and
| use it too..
| dcminter wrote:
| I went to a British private school (which we also call
| "public schools" to annoy Americans) and it was certainly
| still hanging on there into the 80s.
|
| My brother attended the same school where we briefly
| overlapped so I was by default "Minter" and when the
| distinction was needed I was "Minter Minor" and he would
| have been "Minter Major".
|
| Like many things it doesn't make much sense in retrospect.
|
| Edit: People do still often call me "Mister Minter" where
| I'd expect them to use my first name, but I think they just
| like the alliteration. It's not old schoolfriends doing it.
| Muromec wrote:
| Last name address is when things get real. Government and
| divorse lawyers real. Time to sober up and answer carefully.
|
| Not a good feeling, when people do it. The only thing worse
| is name + patronymic. That could never be good news.
| varjag wrote:
| This is remarkable because from my outsider glimpse German
| culture puts an emphasis on formality and credentials. If
| someone has a signature like "Dr. Ing. Prof. Anselm Schultz"
| am sure not opening my email with "Hi Anselm".
| tauchunfall wrote:
| It changed a lot in the last 25 years. But it can depend
| from place to place. One of my friends has a Master of
| Engineering and he was a bit surprised when somebody in
| Austria addressed him with "Oh, Herr Ingenieur!"
| smartmic wrote:
| Austria is special. Using an academic title is customary,
| and job titles are still common. Many foreigners think
| Austria and Germany are similar in terms of culture, but
| there are notable differences between the two countries
| that can be traced back to their history. I have an
| Austrian mother and a German father, so I experienced
| both cultures.
| tauchunfall wrote:
| >I find it super irritating when people address me by my last
| name.
|
| Me too. There are still German companies where coworkers
| address others with Herr or Frau followed by their last name.
|
| I find it also interesting how people that learn German
| understand the difference between the "you" in formal ("sie")
| and informal ("du") version, but often don't understand in
| which context du use them. In most cases you can use the
| informal "du" nowadays, especially when you are out with
| somebody for a beer.
|
| After elementary school we had this interesting shift form
| addressing the other children with first name to addressing
| them with last name. We were circa 11 years old.
| smartmic wrote:
| It's a generational thing. There has definitely been a
| change in recent years, especially the younger generation
| can no longer do much with the formal "Sie", but of course
| they know it. I am 46 years old and have grown up with and
| been familiar with the "Du/Sie" dichotomy from the very
| beginning. It also has many advantages and offers clear
| relationships: There is no ambiguity as to which pronouns I
| use to address someone, older people and superiors always
| use "Sie". With younger people/peers of the same age, you
| can quickly agree on a "Du". These days, it's unclear to me
| who I can address as "Du". I'm a friend of clarifying this
| before starting, but it's always a meta conversation, which
| can hinder the flow of conversation. Besides, it's a kind
| of badge of honor and a sign of trust when you're offered a
| "Du". When I address anyone of our management team as "Du"
| these days, it irritates me - I'm not "best friends" with
| them, nor do I feel closer or more connected. For me, the
| distinction is/was never an expression of whether you are
| on an equal footing or not.
| k07b470n wrote:
| Interesting how you write "Du" and not "du". I'm French
| and I've been living in Germany for 20 years. I
| understand and use "du/Sie" more or less appropriately
| (we have the same dichotomy in French). What I still
| cannot wrap my head around after all this time is
| why/when some people use "du/Du", "dein/Dein",
| "dich/Dich" in writing (to be clear: not at the beginning
| of a sentence). I guess "Du" is somewhere inbetween "du"
| und "Sie" on the politeness scala but I never dared to
| ask. I'm only using lowercase "du". What would be a rule
| of thumb on how/when to use the uppercase "Du"?
| valenterry wrote:
| "Du" and "du" are generally 100% equivalent. Regular
| casing-rules apply, e.g. in the beginning of a sentence
| it's "Du" but inside it's "du". "Kannst du mir helfen?".
| "Du kannst dir doch selbst helfen!"
|
| Sometimes it's written "Du" even if in the middle of the
| sentence when addressing someone directly. It's
| technically incorrect, but it's used for emphasis and
| hence politeness, and that's probably where your feeling
| comes from.
|
| The same can happen with other words that are getting
| capitalized for similar reasons, but when going strictly
| by the book it's grammatically incorrect. An example
| would be "das Grosse Ganze" where it should be "grosse"
| but it is capitalized to emphasize the connection/phrase.
| nosebear wrote:
| >It's technically incorrect, but it's used for emphasis
| and hence politeness, and that's probably where your
| feeling comes from.
|
| That's wrong, it's not _technically incorrect_. In fact
| before 2006 the only correct way to address someone
| _personally_ in written form was to capitalize the Du /
| Sie / Ihr. Since then you are allowed to write it either
| way. I still use the capitalized form because I'm old and
| that's what I learned back in school.
| valenterry wrote:
| Fair enough.
|
| > Since then you are allowed to write it either way
|
| Okay, my interpretation is that it doesn't really make
| sense within the language rules, so they changed it but
| allowed to use the old style to make the transition
| easier. ;-)
|
| > I still use the capitalized form because I'm old and
| that's what I learned back in school.
|
| Impossible to keep up with all the Rechtschreibreformen
| anyways.
| k07b470n wrote:
| Thank you and nosebear for the clarification! Now I
| understand better why some of my colleagues (like my
| boss, older) use "Du" and some don't. I'll stick to not
| using it, there are enough grammatic pitfalls elsewhere
| in the German language (not that French is any easier for
| foreigners, I'm sure).
| gen220 wrote:
| I love and hate German for this; it's a language whose
| formal pitfalls and vagaries seem almost designed to sort
| people into highly-refined strata of education.
|
| It must be so cool to see all of them "from the top"
| (i.e. someone who has been natively-and-highly educated,
| immersed in the language for their whole life); but it's
| from the outside it's like a fancy club that you just
| can't seem to get into :)
| umbra07 wrote:
| It seems sort of like calling other people ma'am and sir
| in America. Everyone _knows_ what those words mean, but
| younger people will almost never use them (except in
| specific American subcultures). Some people may be
| offended if you call them sir /ma'am.
| davidw wrote:
| As a born and raised English speaker and fluent Italian
| speaker, I still don't love the "tu / lei". It's very...
| binary as to what gets used. Sometimes that's easy, but the
| marginal cases can be difficult to figure out.
|
| I think the tone and posture when addressing someone convey
| enough formality. Like if I met Barack Obama, I would be
| very formal and respectful in my bearing and language, but
| of course still use 'you'.
| agubelu wrote:
| In the weird edge cases you can simply err on the side of
| politeness and use the formal version. Worst case
| scenario they'll simply tell you to drop it and use tu
| instead.
| LinAGKar wrote:
| From what I understand, it used to be similar here in
| Sweden, but that change with the du reform in the 60s and
| 70s, when people started saying "du" to everyone, and "ni"
| became purely plural (unless you're speaking to royalty).
|
| We also pretty much always use first name, at least
| everywhere I've been. Would feel weird to call people by
| their last name.
| sfifs wrote:
| Yes. I find addressing people by surname uniquely stupid.
| Like are you calling the person or the historical clan? It
| perhaps made sense for medieval lords to address their
| underlings as if they were interchangeable, in our modern
| context that has largely done away with royalty, using
| surnames makes no sense.
|
| It becomes even more interesting when traditionally cultures
| (like mine) don't use surnames, but modern IT systems
| stemming from the Anglo Saxon culture force people to
| arbitrarily assign one of their names as a surname or IT
| systems generally don't work.
| anal_reactor wrote:
| The fact that different cultures evolved such systems
| independently proves that the general idea does make sense.
| Case in point: you go to an American company, the CEO says
| "call me simply John, feel free to chat up whenever you
| feel like it, we're all family here" and then you go talk
| to him about sex life problems of your marriage and he just
| stares at you awkwardly. Having explicit layers of social
| "closeness" makes things much easier to manage. "We address
| each other using last names, therefore I won't tell him
| about sex life of my marriage".
| bambax wrote:
| Interesting choice of username, given this comment ;-)
| notahacker wrote:
| If you address him as anything more than Mr Reactor
| you'll learn all about what he gets up to...
| staticman2 wrote:
| In your example the American CEO said you are family.
|
| Do you frequently tell you mom, dad, brothers, children
| and in laws about your sex life?
|
| Of course not. Whatever problem the American in this
| hypothetical is having, name conventions are not likely
| to help.
| vel0city wrote:
| This wasn't just "sex life", it was "sex life problems of
| your marriage". And yes, there's a good chance I'd go to
| family and close friends if I was having intimacy
| problems with my spouse (with the approval of my spouse,
| of course!), assuming I have a close personal
| relationship with those people.
|
| It's weird to me so many people in America feel they
| can't talk to anyone but strangers on their internet or
| paid specialists about their sexual issues. Sex is
| generally a pretty normal part of life, especially
| between two married people, and yet everyone feels they
| can't talk about it at all. It's an unhealthy mindset
| IMO.
| anal_reactor wrote:
| > Do you frequently tell you mom, dad, brothers, children
| and in laws about your sex life?
|
| Yes.
| skygazer wrote:
| Do you find they look at you the same way your CEO did?
| If not, you apparently have unusually "special"
| relationships.
| EasyMark wrote:
| I don't talk to my work relationship only CEO about
| anything sexual. That's just common sense, and is built
| into our social mores, no need for some hokey Mr.
| Blahblah unless he wants to be called that explicitly,
| and I'm fine with that.
| cafard wrote:
| I think American high school kids often refer to and
| address one another by surname. It was the case when at my
| son's high school, as I recall at my own, and I think at my
| wife's. It might have been the case at my father's, and
| perhaps my wife's parents--I'd have to look at the
| yearbooks.
| canjobear wrote:
| This was absolutely not the norm I experienced in the
| 2000s.
| DaSHacka wrote:
| Nor I in the 2010's/2020's; I have to assume GP is either
| significantly older than us, or from a community with a
| strong cultural bubble that may be clouding their
| judgement.
| 1shooner wrote:
| I experienced this at an boy's prep high school in the
| late 90s. It really was alienating to have friends I'd
| known since kindergarten start to refer to me by my last
| name out of sheer conformity.
| jlmcguire wrote:
| My experience is this mostly between men and generally
| not as common as it used to be.
|
| My dad is called by his surname by some of his high
| school pals and call some of them by surname when he's
| around them (but not in reference to them if he's talking
| to me). Thinking back to my high school days in the late
| 00's I can only remember athletes being called by their
| last name. Perhaps because of football or sports that you
| just have your last name on your jersey. It would be an
| interesting thing to understand more.
|
| I could be regional too. I'm from the US in the midwest.
| ep103 wrote:
| This is what we used to do, because in one friend group
| there would be 3 mikes and 2 steves. At some point, you
| have to use nicknames or last names.
| yamazakiwi wrote:
| Nicknames include variations like Mikey, Mickey, Mikail,
| Big Michael, Little Michael, Gas Station Michael, Angry
| Michael, Tony (obligatory wrong name your group uses
| because there were already too many Michaels and this
| Michael liked his middle name)
|
| and Mike.
| boogieknite wrote:
| a lot of the time its just a nickname. public schools in
| the US are huge and then when it comes to sports the
| athletes are visiting other schools. before i knew it id
| meet 12 new Jakes every year so everyone goes by
| nicknames or last name
|
| theres an occasional phenomenon in the US, often
| referenced in sitcoms, where an individuals entire first
| and last name sticks as their "nickname"
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| Were your "American" high schools located on some other
| continent?
| EarlKing wrote:
| Addressing each other by surname is something that occurs
| principally in the context of sports, but outside of that
| you'd just address someone by given name. That was the
| case as regards children addressing each other or
| teachers addressing students. Students addressing
| teachers, of course, would address them by Mr/Mrs/Ms.
| <surname>. There are some oddball cases where teachers
| insist their students address them by given name, though.
|
| Also, you made me feel old.
| lukas099 wrote:
| The surname thing was extremely common even outside of
| sports at my high school.
| dmoy wrote:
| It is also used when there's name collision
|
| If there's five people named John in the same class in
| school or the same team at work, it is not uncommon for
| all John to go by last name.
| dpifke wrote:
| I have a very common first name (Dave) and a very uncommon
| last name (Pifke, pronounced PIF-key). The majority of my
| close friends call me by my last name, since there are
| several other Daves and Davids in our friend group.
|
| My brother's friends do likewise, since his first name is
| Mike and he runs with a bunch of other Mikes and Michaels.
|
| There's a naming collision when my brother and I hang out
| together, but since we live in different states, the system
| usually works.
| dylan604 wrote:
| There's always first initial partial last. DPif and MPif
| EasyMark wrote:
| Yeah I have had bosses refer to me by my last name and it's
| effin irritating. I almost always prefer relaxed, casual
| attitudes more than frumpy traditionalist for no good reason
| situations. I understand rare formal occasions but I don't
| want to put on some mask of formality every day. I consider
| everyone equal, at least as far as value as a human being.
| Just treat me with respect, I'm fine with you using my first
| name.
| gniv wrote:
| When I moved to the US it was a cultural shock to have people
| call me by my first name. But I got used to it quickly and now
| everything else seems awkward, especially since my last name is
| hard to pronounce.
| johngossman wrote:
| These things come and go across times and cultures. Even in the
| United States, which many people think of as highly informal,
| it was once common to refer to almost everyone outside the
| family formally. My grandmother talked to her next door
| neighbor everyday and they said "Hello, Mrs. G-" and "How are
| you, Mrs. S-". You also see this in 19th century American and
| English literature ("Mr. Darcy")
| dustincoates wrote:
| At least when I was growing up, it was still the norm in the
| South/Texas. My parents would have never referred to the
| elderly in our neighborhood by their first names.
| yurishimo wrote:
| I also great up in Texas (30yo now). I was raised to always
| say sir/ma'am but for most adults that I knew well, we were
| on a first name basis. Deacons at church were usually on a
| first name basis (my parents volunteered a lot so I knew
| them all really well) but the one noticeable exception was
| the pastor and anyone in a teaching role.
|
| Teachers were always addressed by Mr/Mrs/Ms and this
| extended into Scouts as well. For anyone I don't know, I
| tend to just say "sir/ma'am" (employee at the grocery store
| for example) unless. If the person has a professional title
| that I know of, I will use the title (Dr. Martin, Professor
| Lake, etc).
|
| My parents I suppose were very similar. Sir/Ma'am for most
| interactions, but I don't recall hearing a Mr/Mrs/Ms when
| they referenced other people in our lives.
|
| Since I've moved to Europe a few years back, I'm trying to
| follow the local customs more, which at first glance seem
| very similar (Netherlands). Formal for strangers, informal
| for basically everyone else. I've tried using the formal
| with some older neighbours and they always tell me stop
| immediately!
| dustincoates wrote:
| > Deacons at church were usually on a first name basis
| (my parents volunteered a lot so I knew them all really
| well) but the one noticeable exception was the pastor and
| anyone in a teaching role.
|
| That brings up an actually interesting exception. At my
| church, the pastors were the only adults we'd ever call
| by their first name, sort of. Our pastor, for example,
| was always Brother Mike, not Pastor <Last Name>.
| thyristan wrote:
| Are you certain that Brother Mike wasn't a monk as well,
| so in a religious context "Brother Mike" was his only
| proper name?
| vel0city wrote:
| > I was raised to always say sir/ma'am
|
| I also grew up in Texas and to this day I still tend to
| use sir/ma'am for most adults I don't know. Every now and
| then it seems to throw people off. People don't seem to
| expect to hear "Yes, sir" very often it seems.
| umbra07 wrote:
| I think there's a difference between "excuse me sir, you
| dropped your wallet" and "yessir".
| wahern wrote:
| In rural Georgia my father's wife, still 15+ years my
| senior, would always "yessir" and "no sir" me, just as she
| did with everyone else (ma'am for women, of course). And
| this was in the past 10 years. Even my half-siblings from
| rural Alabama do that generally, but not nearly so strictly
| with family like myself. Use of last names, though, is
| still reserved for non-family elders.
|
| Conversely, in coastal California that kind of speech is
| actively (even aggressively) discouraged, such as in public
| schools, higher grades, especially. It's still appreciated
| in more traditional communities, though, such as black or
| immigrant Asian communities. Code switching isn't limited
| to certain minority groups; even affluent coastal white
| folks often end of code switching.
| anthk wrote:
| Spaniard here; addressing someone by the last name looks really
| outdated.
| whstl wrote:
| Same.
|
| The only situation where I call people by their last name in
| my language is when it's their nickname. Like there were two
| "Johns" so we call the second one "Smith".
| blargthorwars wrote:
| As a tourist, it's a cheat code to be hyper formal. Gets you
| instant goodwill.
| agubelu wrote:
| Spanish has actually three levels of formality when
| addressing someone by name:
|
| <First name>: Informal, casual conversation.
|
| Don <First name>: More formal, conveys respect while still
| indicating some closeness.
|
| Senor <Last name>: Most formal, normally used in writing.
|
| Using only someone's last name is just plain weird. If you
| want to speak formally to someone just address them as
| "usted", it will get you the same goodwill without sounding
| off.
| anthk wrote:
| Don it's very outdated unless you address a very
| important person.
| agubelu wrote:
| I agree it's more likely to be used by older generations
| but it's not uncommon to hear it around either,
| especially when addressing or refering to elders
| tiagod wrote:
| In Portugal it's very associated with military service. I
| don't think I've ever been addressed by my last name here.
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| Has _tutoiement_ changed too? How does that work with machines,
| do they always use _vous_ form?
| benhurmarcel wrote:
| Typically machines/websites should use "vous", but it is more
| and more common to read "tu", depending on the target
| audience and the company marketing.
| andruby wrote:
| And with french you also have Tu vs Vous.
|
| I am almost at the halfway point of my life expectancy, and I
| do actually prefer people using my first name over my last
| name.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| Would addressing you by your mail address work ?
|
| Handling people's name is I think the bane of our field, and
| leads to many of the awful choices like forcing fields with a
| first and last name for instance, or requesting people's gender
| to properly set the Mr and Mrs. As a dev I'm not happy about
| it, as a user I hate it, I'm not sure the majority of people
| are happy either with the current state of things.
|
| Accepting that it's a machine sending the mail could simplify
| all of this quite a bit, provided people are fine by being
| addressed in an impersonal and inorganic way.
| miki123211 wrote:
| If you mean snail mail address, no it wouldn't. It's common
| to share these between people who have the same last (or
| sometimes first) names. Things get really fun when it's.
| both, e.g. a man marrying somebody who has the same first
| name as their sister. This actually happened in my (distant)
| family.
|
| If you mean an email (or the part before the @), also no.
| People sometimes sign up from addresses like
| contact@example.com, and "dear contact" would be super
| confusing.
|
| The "right thing to do" is to have a "what should we call
| you" field, which should be completely separate from any
| names collected for legal purposes, if any.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| > If you mean an email (or the part before the @), also no.
| People sometimes sign up from addresses like
| contact@example.com, and "dear contact" would be super
| confusing.
|
| I was going for the principle that we're not trying to
| mimic human emotions when it's a mail to remind you to
| accept the latest TOS.
|
| So, no "Dear", no trying to come up with something socially
| acceptable, just plain "miki123211@hn.xx, please review our
| newest Terms and Services at https://....../...."
|
| The "what should we call you" field sounds attractive, but
| would be ripe for abuse IMHO. Not on technical terms, but
| users would definitely play with it to have you send "Mrs
| DeepshitFuckHorse please confirm your email at...." to
| random addresses for instance, or any other vector that
| we're not thinking about right now.
| lipowitz wrote:
| Earlier everything was based on 'handles' and using them
| was fine and expected.. As networks adopt everyone and
| become used for formal things it's gotten more
| complicated to integrate rules of different systems.
|
| I've started to prefer messages that just start with
| "Hello,".
| miki123211 wrote:
| This is already plenty common with names.
|
| I tend to use fuck/off as name/surname for completely
| throwaway accounts, and "dear mr. Fuck" is something I
| received once.
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| When I was in university, a friend of mine used to address me
| by my unix username.
| esseph wrote:
| This rules and your friend is awesome
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| It's not unusual for people to use the name they know you
| by. In high school, there was someone who addressed me as
| Ix, the name I used in multiplayer Duke Nukem. He didn't
| know my name.
|
| There are several people I know primarily through wechat,
| where it's almost always unnecessary to address people by
| name because messages have only one recipient. Sometimes
| this has led to conversations like this:
|
| > What should I call you? Ying ?
|
| > OK.
|
| [I was not especially reassured by that response.]
| ilc wrote:
| Only one?
|
| You got off light. I had a good number of people call me by
| my username at my undergrad.
|
| When I went to grad school, they let us select user ids. My
| user name matched my first name, most elegant solution to
| that problem yet ;)
| make3 wrote:
| I feel like tu vs vous is extra annoying in French when you're
| speaking to someone who's not a stranger. I have no desire to
| judge if you think you're too famous of eg a professor for me
| to say tu, your success doesn't create a hierarchy between us,
| and it's annoying if you think so. I much prefer English for
| that.
| kaptainscarlet wrote:
| Giving respect based on seniority is one of the major reasons
| why autocracies thrive unchecked in some countries as younger
| people are unable to hold older folks accountable.
| lukan wrote:
| In its extreme shapes maybe, but just paying respect to the
| elders for having lived much longer and seen so much more, is
| something that should be normal in my opinion.
| miki123211 wrote:
| It used to be a lot more reasonable back in the day.
|
| When the world didn't change as quickly, or didn't change
| at all, the elders truly knew everything the young ones
| knew, and so much more. They had truly seen everything and
| had plenty of experience with the problems young people
| were struggling with.
|
| This very much isn't the case any more. I'm in my twenties
| (technically part of gen Z), but I already feel like I
| don't understand the Tiktok-using, trap-loving part of my
| generation. The 14-18 year olds probably have very
| different issues now than I did at that age, and that
| wasn't even so long ago. People from my parents' generation
| are out of the loop completely, their world still revolves
| around linear TV, college as a path for success in life
| etc.
| lukan wrote:
| Oh, I am also not asking my grandparents for concrete
| life or technical advice. I am just talking about respect
| of their age, what they experienced and lived through.
| bmicraft wrote:
| I really don't get why just the concept of deserving
| respect for having lived longer - why does that make you
| more deserving of respect, irrespective of how you lived?
| lukan wrote:
| Just the fact that they lived so much longer. And are
| usually more wise in life experience.
|
| That doesn't mean I tolerate old farts shouting at my
| children for being young. Or excuse shitty behavior in
| general.
|
| But the default for me is paying respect for the elders.
| Offering them my seat in the train if there is no other,
| etc.
| umbra07 wrote:
| > Just the fact that they lived so much longer.
|
| But... why does living longer in and of itself command an
| extra degree of respect?
|
| > And are usually more wise in life experience.
|
| assertion ;)
|
| > That doesn't mean I tolerate old farts shouting at my
| children for being young. Or excuse shitty behavior in
| general.
|
| > But the default for me is paying respect for the
| elders.
|
| > Offering them my seat in the train if there is no
| other, etc.
|
| I offer old people my seat because they'll likely feel
| pain if they have to stand up for a while, they might
| fall down if the bus goes bump, etc. I won't be pained by
| standing up for 45 minutes so it doesn't really come at
| any cost to me.
|
| i.e. I'm not giving up my seat because I respect old
| people for being old.
| mattgreenrocks wrote:
| Think of it more as a little extra atop the basic
| courtesy due to all people (unless they prove otherwise).
| EasyMark wrote:
| I'm not sure tik tok expertise implies worldliness or
| wisdom :)
| makeitdouble wrote:
| It's a tougher sell when the younger generation gets the
| short end of the stick.
|
| In a way that would be a good barometer of how that society
| thinks it's doing and how promising the younger generation
| sees its future, as prepared by their elders.
|
| It's all the more interesting in countries where the
| population pyramid if fully reversed, and elders have way
| more power than the younger working class.
| Barrin92 wrote:
| seniority as in rank, and respect for elders as in filial
| piety in East Asia are two very different things. Autocracy
| relies on execution of arbitrary power, and the latter places
| a limit on it. It's why after the revolution in China,
| Confucianism is the first thing they tried to get rid of. I
| stayed in Beijing during the covid lockdowns and there was
| one group of people that could do what they wanted "dancing
| grannies", old people who meet up to dance in public parks
| because messing with them was seen as too offensive.
|
| Autocracy is usually driven by the opposite, unrestricted
| mobilization of the youth. In particular true in the West
| today. Bukele is not exactly a pensioner, and if the US has
| displayed one thing in recent times it isn't respect for the
| age of their leaders to put it mildly.
| kmeisthax wrote:
| Yes, but traditionalist power structures are still
| authoritarian. Insamuch as they oppose autocracies, it is
| by virtue of having got there first and not yielding power
| to the new tyrant[0]. The problem is not the age of the
| ruler, or the legitimacy of the power structure, but the
| resulting distribution of power.
|
| Insamuch as Confucian filial piety can be a check on
| upstart autocrats, that's _useful_ , but not _sufficient_.
| There 's nothing stopping the Maoist autocracy from
| embracing Confucius[1]; Mao just didn't want to for
| ideological reasons. Autocrats are ultimately building a
| coalition of scam victims that are all locked in the same
| room with one another. They don't care who's in the room as
| long as they won't unify against the leader.
|
| In the US, we have Trump, the oldest US President in
| history, with, to put it mildly, "autocratic ambitions".
| His coalition includes old people, who vote early and
| often, and want to impose the social order of the 1950s
| upon the country. Almost[2] nothing about them suggests
| that they're going to meaningfully check Trump's power
| anytime soon; if anything, they're the only[3] faction of
| the Trump coalition that's gotten anything out of the deal.
|
| [0] If the autocrat wins, they will eventually just become
| the new traditionalist power structure. Every pirate wants
| to become an admiral.
|
| [1] Mussolini recognized the Vatican as a sovereign state
| purely to get the Pope to shut up about him.
|
| [2] Insert clip of some old guy vandalizing a Cybertruck
| here.
|
| [3] No, I don't count pardoning Ross Ulbricht. The
| Libertarian Party sold their soul for a donut.
| OhMeadhbh wrote:
| I try to get people to avoid my first name, mostly because they
| can't pronounce it. The only time I had a stranger pronounce it
| right was when we were meeting w/ the Republic of Ireland tech
| transfer office.
| IAmBroom wrote:
| O, Mev!
| wazoox wrote:
| Ah yes, the worst is Discord who always says "tu", who are you?
| do I know you? Did we herd geese together at some point :D ?
| chromehearts wrote:
| Very interesting! I work for (probably) the most well known
| German company. Here, it's always advised to use the first name
| & the 2nd person singular pronoun ("du"; you) instead of the
| more formal third person plural pronoun ("Sie"; you)
|
| Company standards differ and every time you meet someone new,
| say in a Teams-Meeting, the older person generally offers you
| to use "Du". You may or may not accept it
|
| It's basically "respecting your elders"
|
| While I (21 years of age) talk with my boss on this personal
| level, I can't get myself to address other older (higher
| ranked) employees by their first name. Saying Mr. or Mrs. is
| kinda required for me as the person I am, because I always try
| to respect them. (This doesn't apply to some other older
| (higher ranked) employees, those with which I don't have much
| to work with. While I do respect them, it's not the same type
| of respect I have for them)
|
| This may sound very confusing and it even is for me, as I am
| not German and merely adapt to what is the cultural standard
| here.
|
| My culture we address everyone by their first name. The only
| thing we must absolutely add are the social prefixes for older
| folks (typically above a 5 year range? depends on some
| factors.) I could never address, mention or talk about uncle /
| aunt XYZ as just XYZ. It's very crucial to always add that,
| especially for people you know. If you don't know them, just
| say the preferred prefix as well, it shows a basic level of
| respect We don't really use our surnames - it's more to
| identify, who exactly we are talking about. For example, when
| talking about "Michael", but the involved in the conversation
| don't know who we're talking about we usually just say "from
| the house of _surname_ " ( _house of_ is the literal
| translation)
| rayiner wrote:
| I spent almost 10 years trying to avoid calling my mother and
| father in law by their first names. In my home country's
| language there are words for "mother in law" and "father in
| law" you can use in a second person context, but English
| doesn't have any. My wife has the opposite problem. She's
| gotten stuck calling my parents "Mr. XYZ" and "Mrs. XYZ."
| beAbU wrote:
| My inlaws are addressed "mom" and "dad" - is that weird?
| fragmede wrote:
| we've all seen https://www.kalzumeus.com/2010/06/17/falsehoods-
| programmers-..., yeah?
| mensetmanusman wrote:
| Now that I know that every culture approaches this differently,
| it takes zero effort to not be annoyed when someone does
| something different than what I expect.
| youngNed wrote:
| ^^^ what this cunt said
| somanyphotons wrote:
| found the australian
| youngNed wrote:
| Irish, we're basically _proto-austalis_
| joshdavham wrote:
| I never truly understood linguistic formality until I was
| teaching a class and one of the students addressed me as
| "Josh". My full name is "Joshua" and students virtually always
| used to call me that, but that semester, the computer system
| put my name as "Josh" and it felt weirdly disrespectful when a
| student called me that even though I know none was intended.
| johngossman wrote:
| As far as I can tell, everything in this article applies to Japan
| as well.
| lmm wrote:
| It does not. Japan a hundred years ago maybe. Some of my
| Japanese colleagues were surprised when I mentioned this style
| of age counting in an old novel I was reading.
| johngossman wrote:
| You're right and I think I got my misinformation from reading
| older novels too. Apparently, the law changed in 1902 and it
| broadly phased out in the 50s.
| ang_cire wrote:
| That used to be true about Japan using the "1 the day you're
| born" system, but now it's mostly only referenced to joke about
| kids trying to claim they're older than they really are.
| dumb1224 wrote:
| In my hometown in China, same practice. However I find it not
| consistent for people from all over of China. When I get into a
| causal conversation about childhood with people from everywhere
| I had to do the conversion in my head (which school year what
| game came out e.g).
| null_deref wrote:
| The fact that all Koreans that were born in the same year become
| of a legal age to drink on the same day, probably creates some
| cool memories if you drink responsibly
| klntsky wrote:
| Drinking responsibly is uncool by definition when you are that
| age.
| apt-apt-apt-apt wrote:
| 'Oh, no thanks! I am good with one beer!'
| null_deref wrote:
| Yeah yeah I agree, it's sometimes fun to go crazy in that
| age. I meant drinking responsibly in the broadest way
| possible
| Tarq0n wrote:
| Korea has a binge drinking culture where adolescents frequently
| peer pressure each other to drink more.
| anhldbk wrote:
| Most Vietnamese do the same things too.
| politelemon wrote:
| Does the January 1st thing apply as well?
| Cyphase wrote:
| Sort of like horses.
|
| https://horseracingsense.com/why-thoroughbred-racehorses-sam...
| bryanhogan wrote:
| Thanks for sharing, never knew how much Koreans and horses have
| in common.
| bravesoul2 wrote:
| Good job the Matrix wasn't set in Korea
| gschizas wrote:
| Why?
| xxs wrote:
| 'Mr. Anderson', c'mon (when the big bad referring 'The one',
| 'Neo')
| Yizahi wrote:
| Movie with agent Smith as a good guy and a protagonist
| would be very amusing :)
| ang_cire wrote:
| I'm guessing because of "neo" being rude
| bryanhogan wrote:
| This reminds me, it's actually very interesting how English
| movies get translated into Korean and vice versa, since the
| nuances mentioned in the article are hard to translate /
| convey in the other language.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| In Tamatoa's musical number in _Moana_ , he spontaneously
| breaks into French for a single line of his song, "c'est
| la vie, mon ami". This is not expected to cause problems
| for English-speaking audiences.
|
| I thought it was interesting to see how foreign language
| dubs handled that line. Sometimes they translate the
| French into the dub language as if it had just been
| English like the rest of the song. Sometimes they leave
| it as French. I don't remember any that translate it into
| a language that isn't the language of the dub, but also
| isn't French.
|
| (Of particular note, the _French_ dub leaves the line as
| "untranslated" French.)
|
| Something that feels similar to me is the treatment of
| the Italian brothers in _Lady and the Tramp_. In the
| English original, they are jovial immigrants from Italy
| who operate an Italian restaurant and speak English in a
| very thick Italian accent.
|
| This cultural concept translated better into some foreign
| languages than others. In the French dub, the brothers
| are jovial immigrants from Italy who operate an Italian
| restaurant and speak French in a very thick Italian
| accent.
| nmeofthestate wrote:
| In the Spanish-dubbed version of Fawlty Towers, Manuel is
| Italian instead of Spanish, and he's Mexican in the
| Catalan version. (https://archive.ph/9LX6t)
| voidUpdate wrote:
| People always tell me that watching English dubbed anime
| isn't good because it loses the nuance of the Japanese
| language, in similar ways, though I don't speak/read
| Japanese so I'm either going to be listening to it in
| English or reading the subs in English. I know I'm going
| to be losing subtle nuance either way but I've never been
| good at learning languages
| decimalenough wrote:
| Sadly for the dad joke, the eo in neo "neo" is a single
| vowel that sounds more like English "u" or "o", as in
| Seoul.
| kinleyd wrote:
| As a young man many years ago I happened to be in Seoul, in a
| shoe store. I was casually asking prices in English and noticed
| the salesman or owner was getting visibly angry with me. So much
| so that as I went around the corner of the store I clearly saw
| that he had begun advancing toward me, with every intention of
| physically attacking me. I put my hand forward to stop him and as
| I did, I shouted loudly, again in English, "Stop. Let me outta
| here!" To which he suddenly hesitated, stepped aside and let me
| go.
|
| I wondered for years what I might have done to upset the bloke -
| he was a well built man and I did not want to fight him! It was
| only after the KAL crash and the coverage it gave the Korean
| focus on seniority and age that the penny dropped. He thought I
| was Korean - I do look very Korean (and Japanese and Chinese) -
| and was clearly offended by my not respecting his age.
|
| At least that is what I would like to think. The alternative is
| that I was somehow very offensive anyway and I'd like not to
| think that.
| whstl wrote:
| In Germany I never had someone go to those lengths, but I've
| once made someone visible irritated when I used _" du"_ instead
| of the more formal _" Sie"_.
|
| Of course I didn't notice but a friend just clued me into it
| right after.
|
| Thing is, in Berlin nobody really cares I guess, but this time
| I was in the country... oooooops...
| ffsm8 wrote:
| That must've been quite some time ago.
|
| With multiple areas with >50% migrants you can count yourself
| lucky if ppl even speak German fluently enough to hold a
| conversation.
|
| And the last holdouts that are still mostly natives are
| usually in the countryside... And the du/Sie rule has always
| been an urban convention.
|
| Personally, I think your friend just noticed the phrasing and
| made an issue out of nothing
| yongjik wrote:
| Umm... I'm not sure I follow. You were casually asking prices
| in _English_ and the shopowner jumped to the conclusion that
| you were trolling him by using English when you were fluent in
| Korean?
|
| If it was around that time, most Koreans were not good at
| English, and it's not exactly hard to tell a native English
| speaker from a Korean who learned "I'm a boy, you are a girl"
| in middle school.
|
| Sounds like the shopowner was just a jerk and was mad for some
| random reason.
| GreyMolecules wrote:
| This article does not address another layer that makes the Korean
| age system complicated: the "bbareun" system. It refers to people
| born in January or February who, due to the school cutoff being
| in March, often enter school a year early and socially identify
| with those born in the previous calendar year.
|
| For example, if I'm "bbareun95", which indicates that I was born
| in 1995 between January and the end of February, I get to
| befriend and hang out with the ones born in 1994.
|
| (Please note that Koreans typically make friends within the same
| narrow age band.)
| bryanhogan wrote:
| That's very interesting, thanks for mentioning it! I didn't
| know about that, hence I didn't include it. But it makes sense,
| I have sometimes noticed people asking whether the other was
| born early or late into the year, and change their standing
| based on that, but didn't know that that could have been
| because of the "bbareun" system.
| GreyMolecules wrote:
| Being a bbareun can put you in a slightly sticky situation,
| especially when combined with the strict hierarchy rules
| regarding honorifics (jondaesmal).
|
| Typically, throughout middle school to university days, a
| South Korean individual is expected to use the honorific
| version of the language when speaking to someone older. This
| version involves a completely different set of vocabulary and
| grammar, used to show "respect to others" and sound "polite,"
| effectively preventing one from being casual with others.
| Whereas a bbareun is allowed to befriend people one year
| above their age and gets to use "banmal" (the casual version
| of the language) with those peers.
|
| A social complication can arise when two groups with a
| monotonic increase in age meet. Say, friend group A comprises
| a regular 95 and a bbareun 95. They became friends in high
| school and talk casually. Then there's group B, which
| consists of a regular 95 and a bbareun 96, who also became
| friends in high school. Now, when groups A and B start
| hanging out together at university, the bbareun 95 has to
| decide whether to use honorific or casual speech with the
| regular 95 and the bbareun 96.
|
| The ones stuck in the middle, in this case the bbareun95,
| gets called "jogbo beureikeo", which roughly translates to
| "pedigree breaker".
| kanbara wrote:
| this is a thing in the us as well--- tho the cutoff is august
| or september normally. there's no name for it, but it's real.
|
| and american kids are also way more like to make friends in
| their school peer age group. i believe this is almost a
| universal truth for the first world
| rafram wrote:
| Absolutely true in elementary/middle school, and even a bit
| in the early parts of high school and college (upperclassmen
| don't want anything to do with "freshmen"), but in the adult
| world, I don't think age gaps of 5+ years between friends are
| uncommon at all.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| > Please note that Koreans typically make friends within the
| same narrow age band.
|
| Everyone does to some degree or another. For example, Americans
| do this through middle school. It's not really until high
| school where you start mingling with other grades.
| socalgal2 wrote:
| This "high power distance" culture contributed to several airline
| crashes in the 80s and 90s because people under the captain
| wouldn't dare to question the captain's decisions.
|
| One in particular:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Flight_801
| decimalenough wrote:
| Malcolm Campbell popularized this theory. It's not entirely
| without merit but as ever the reality is more nuanced. NTSB:
|
| > _The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the
| probable cause of this accident was the captain 's failure to
| adequately brief and execute the non-precision approach and the
| first officer's and flight engineer's failure to effectively
| monitor and cross-check the captain's execution of the
| approach. Contributing to these failures were the captain's
| fatigue and Korean Air's inadequate flight crew training.
| Contributing to the accident was the Federal Aviation
| Administration's intentional inhibition of the minimum safe
| altitude warning system at Guam and the agency's failure to
| adequately manage the system._
| elSidCampeador wrote:
| *Gladwell - Malcolm Campbell died long ago
| contrarian1234 wrote:
| Assuming the "power distance" is pre-existing - I find
| honorifics make it much easier to challenge someone in
| authority. If you start with a Mr/Mrs Blah or Professor Blah
| and then present critcism.. it typically comes off better. B/c
| you are showing you're not too chummy and you're strongly
| implying you respect them (at least somewhat).
|
| Ex: You're in a lecture and you tell your professor "Professor
| X, I think on slide 10 there is a mistake". This comes off much
| better than "Hey Bob, I think there is a mistake on slide 10"
|
| So at least personally, if appropriate, I default to using
| honorifics b/c it makes people feel better. (Unless they for
| some reason want to be seen as your peer - which does happen
| rarely)
| nindalf wrote:
| Yeah in my personal experience I like honorifics for the same
| reason. Not possible in English but in the other languages I
| know I make it a point to address everyone (except family and
| friends) with the higher honorific. Especially restaurant
| staff or other service workers. Sometimes I wish English had
| an easy way for me to convey "I respect you" as subtext.
| nobody9999 wrote:
| >Sometimes I wish English had an easy way for me to convey
| "I respect you" as subtext.
|
| I find that sir/ma'am plus politeness (please, thank you,
| etc.) works nicely.
|
| While there is the chance that you might misgender someone
| with that, that's not very common (at least for me) as long
| as you, you know, pay attention.
|
| That said unless they have a note tattooed on their
| forehead with their preferred term of address, I can only
| use non-language cues to determine the appropriate term.
|
| On the rare occasions where I use the wrong term and am
| corrected, I am fastidious in adhering to the requested
| term(s).
|
| None of that's is rocket surgery, just simple respect for
| other humans IMHO.
| silenced_trope wrote:
| Relevant:
|
| Nathan Fielder's show "The Rehearsal" on HBO recently released
| season 2, the entire season is about airline cockpit dynamics
| between the first officer and the pilot.
| throw55653s2 wrote:
| That sounds like pop science. I find it funny culture is used
| to describe why things fail in Asia, but when things fail in
| the West, it's because of that individual person's actions.
| subarctic wrote:
| Kind of makes sense when you think about it, since if the
| person is describing it in English at least there's a good
| chance they are from the West.
| ignoramous wrote:
| Also: PIA 8303 https://www.dailyo.in/variety/pakistan-flight-
| crash-pia-flig...
| beardyw wrote:
| 'Using "you" in Korean is quite interesting since the direct
| translation neo / neo is often too rude'
|
| This is most likely an equivalent to thee/thou which was
| considered rude to use for one's superiors or elders as in:
|
| "Don't tha "thee" me!" - it's ok for me to use for you but not
| t'other way round.
|
| Now many believe thou/thee to be respectful because of the bible,
| where in fact it is used as familiarity.
| kijin wrote:
| Korean age is a hack that helps ease the friction that all those
| rules of seniority and different speech levels impose on us.
|
| It gives you an age bracket within which everyone is equal, once
| and for all, regardless of their exact date of birth. Your friend
| isn't suddenly going to speak down to you when he turns 7 and
| you're still 6, except perhaps as a joke. Both of you are 8 in
| Korean age, and will turn 9 at the exact same moment. This age
| bracket produces a stable peer group who can remain friends for
| life, regardless of when or where individuals went to school, got
| a job, or enlisted in the army -- all the other places where
| hierarchy can be imposed.
|
| Of course, the year is also important for reasons of
| superstition. There are still some elderly people who ask for the
| (Chinese zodiac) animal associated with your year of birth,
| instead of the year itself.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| I'm surprised they ask for the year directly. My impression is
| that in China, if you want to know someone's age, you ask for the
| animal of their birth year. That gives you the year mod 12, which
| you're expected to be able to resolve to a particular year
| yourself.
| tdeck wrote:
| I've read that it's considered perfectly OK to ask someone's
| salary in China, so it's interesting that asking a person's
| birth year would be sensitive.
| whensean wrote:
| From the perspective of national and social development, this is
| definitely a dross culture. This system similar to hierarchy
| seemingly increases the courtesy among people. However, it more
| often leads to age bullying, blind obedience to the elders, and
| hinders resistance and innovation.
|
| Influenced by Confucian culture, China doesn't have such a
| perverted etiquette system at all.
| 4gotunameagain wrote:
| Typical cultural superiority bias.
|
| Every way has its pros and cons. Having an age related
| hierarchy might have benefits like societal coherence or
| stability. I am not a proponent of it, I just acknowledge my
| inability to fully grasp the impact and ramifications as to
| label one as superior and the other as "perverted".
| cess11 wrote:
| If you think hierarchy is natural and good you're a
| conservative or some other kind of reactionary.
|
| Hierarchies invite revolt and need a lot of force to keep in
| place.
| 4gotunameagain wrote:
| I did not talk about natural, I did not talk about good.
|
| If you think there are no hierarchies _everywhere_ , then
| we have a completely different worldview.
| mock-possum wrote:
| It's sounds like we're running into the is/ought problem
| - just because there _is_ hierarchy doesn't mean that's
| the way it _ought_ to be.
| ZephyrBlu wrote:
| In the modern day, Korean culture is absolutely cooked. There
| is a reason their birth rates are so terrible. Talking to
| Koreans and consuming even just a little bit of media about
| Korea makes some of the problems pretty obvious.
| Noelia- wrote:
| I find it really interesting how much weight that simple question
| "What year were you born?" carries in Korean social life. A
| Korean friend once told me that it's not about prying into your
| private life, it's about figuring out how to talk to you and what
| to call you.
|
| It also made me realize that a lot of the small social details we
| take for granted might seem really jarring or even rude in
| another culture.
| Leftium wrote:
| Koreans have some "hacks" to get around this (age-based) social
| hierarchy:
|
| 1. Some workplaces use English names (and even English language)
| so co-workers can speak/refer to each other without using the
| social hierarchy constructs built into the Korean language.
|
| 2. Social (partnered) dance clubs go by nicknames for the same
| reason. Even though I dance with them on a regular basis, I don't
| know most of my dance friends' real names. I'm not aware of any
| other country where dancers do this.
| rafram wrote:
| > Some workplaces use English names (and even English language)
| so co-workers can speak/refer to each other without using the
| social hierarchy constructs built into the Korean language.
|
| That's so interesting. It reminds me very vaguely of Indians
| escaping the caste hierarchy by converting to Islam or
| Buddhism. Sometimes the easiest way out of a restrictive system
| in your culture is just to switch cultural contexts entirely.
| kwillets wrote:
| Kakao ended the English names a year or so ago due to
| inevitable confusion, but now people are supposed to add the
| "nim" (dear) suffix to each other's Korean names instead, which
| sounds creepy.
|
| The funny part of the Kakao CEO asking to be called Brian is
| that there was a K-drama (Search WWW) with a fictional tech
| company, but they also made the CEO name Brian. I suspect if
| this idea had gone on every CEO would be called Brian.
| Leftium wrote:
| It can also be considered rude to use the more formal style of
| speech when the social hierarchy dictates the informal style
| should be used.
|
| The book Using Korean[1] gives a detailed explanation of how
| formal speech indicates social distance more than simple
| politeness:
|
| > [jondaesmal] indicates a psychological distance between the
| speaker and the hearer... a couple in a romantic relationship who
| normally use an intimate casual style with each other will
| suddenly switch to a formal style after they fight, to
| demonstrate the distance they feel from each other.
|
| From a related discussion:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/Korean/comments/vcusut/comment/icj2...
|
| [1]:
| https://books.google.co.kr/books?id=2ggVsnUCbiAC&lpg=PA17&pg...
| blissofbeing wrote:
| It's interesting that someone like a boss would be further away
| from you and not a friend, how would you talk to your boss that
| is also your friend?
| Leftium wrote:
| I suppose it would depend on the exact people and
| circumstances: the "social distance" can be very subjective.
|
| - The same situation with different people or the same people
| in a different situation may result in different speech
| levels.
|
| - If an older person feels really close to a junior, they may
| even ask them to "lower their speech."
|
| There was a documentary about a much older Korean working for
| a very young boss. This resulted in a conflict: age hierarchy
| vs role hierarchy. They both spoke to each other in the
| formal style.
|
| And think about addressing a mix of people who are both above
| and below you in the hierarchy...
| bitbasher wrote:
| Japanese also has a number of social systems and expectations
| that can be tricky to navigate as an outsider.
|
| When I was younger and studying Japanese I used to play a popular
| Japanese MMORPG. It was popular among middle aged individuals
| (25-50).
|
| I was lucky enough to meet a Japanese clan leader that invited me
| into one of the largest clans in the game. Fast forward a year or
| so-- and a new player joined the clan.
|
| One day the new player flipped out on me in our clan chat. Our
| clan leaders told her I wasn't Japanese and to cut me some slack.
| She refused to believe I was a foreigner.
|
| On the one hand I was proud. My Japanese was good enough for
| someone to think I wasn't a foreigner. On the other hand I was
| sad, I clearly did something wrong.
|
| The clan leader spoke to me in a 1:1 fashion and tried to
| explain. It wasn't the language I used, but more or less how I
| interacted with the more senior clan members. I would often
| suggest things we could do or ask if they wanted to do something.
| In reality, it was expected to do small talk and wait for senior
| clan members to suggest something to do. I was crossing some
| social boundary...
| Llamamoe wrote:
| > I would often suggest things we could do or ask if they
| wanted to do something. In reality, it was expected to do small
| talk and wait for senior clan members to suggest something to
| do. I was crossing some social boundary...
|
| I know that this sort of shit happens in corporations and the
| government, but the idea that it crosses over into even
| multiplayer games makes me reconsider if I really want to ever
| visit Japan...
| neurostimulant wrote:
| Big clans are basically companies with hierarchical power
| structure.
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| Social structures still exist in social situations. I don't
| really see what the alternative would be.
|
| I found an interesting interview on youtube of someone who
| grew up in Japan and moved to Korea:
|
| > What is your favorite thing about Korea?
|
| > I find it comfortable that Koreans are honest about their
| thoughts.
|
| > In the beginning I was hurt a lot and it was hard because
| of how honest Koreans are
|
| > What do you think is the difference between Korea and
| Japan?
|
| > First of all I think there is a difference in personality
|
| > Since I was living in Japan, up until I was 18 years old, I
| had a typical Japanese personality
|
| > Back then I couldn't speak my mind [...] and dancing was
| the only way I could express myself
|
| > [...] and I also couldn't reject [someone/something]
|
| > when my friends said we should do something, I always said
| yes
|
| > after living in Korea, I felt a lot that I need to say what
| I want and don't want to do
|
| Given that it's unacceptable to reject what a _peer_ wants to
| do in Japan, I can see where making suggestions to a superior
| would cause problems.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPqqwrZqjK8
| readthenotes1 wrote:
| 'Using "you" in Korean is quite interesting since the direct
| translation neo / neo is often too rude.'
|
| That makes me wonder how the preferred third person pronoun
| movement works in Korea...
| JohnFen wrote:
| What would be the polite way to decline to answer the question?
| Is that even possible?
| daft_pink wrote:
| I've been told the one reason why Japanese is so hard to learn is
| because there is an underlying etiquette and social hierarchy
| built into the language and it is not simply being able to
| understand and speak the words.
|
| Native speakers tolerate errors when it's obvious someone is non-
| native, but become offended when they speak it perfectly, but
| screw up the social heirarchy, so it's extremely hard to progress
| beyond a certain point.
| gyomu wrote:
| Heh that's overstated. As a non Asian foreigner*, you get a lot
| of leeway for making mistakes when speaking Japanese, as it is
| somehow ingrained in the subconscious here that Japanese is
| very special and very complicated and a foreigner trying to
| speak it is already doing something near impossible.
|
| If your Japanese is near flawless except for the honorific
| register that would strike people as weird, but then what did
| you do to end up speaking flawless Japanese without ever
| properly internalizing honorific Japanese?
|
| *(If you are an Asian foreigner, you are subject to many other
| layers of prejudice unrelated to your language ability)
| thaumasiotes wrote:
| My grandmother spent a lot of time in Japan, and she reported
| that everyone was very accommodating initially, but that over
| time the expectation developed that after being there for so
| long she should have learned the correct way to behave.
| lvl155 wrote:
| Koreans from Korea often do not follow this rule outside of the
| country. They basically use it whenever it benefits them. So in
| essence this aspect of the culture is pretty much...BS.
| dkga wrote:
| I find it surprising actually how much these seniority rules are
| well-defined in many cultures, but in Brazil there is strong
| variation - even in the same geography. For example, a colleague
| who is learning Brazilian Portuguese was under the impression
| that "voce" and "tu" were the equivalent of "vous/tu" or
| "Sie/du". In reality, they are just different regional ways of
| saying the informal you. In Brazilian Portuguese is to call
| someone "o Senhor/a Senhora" based on their gender, with a
| singular third person declination. And in the countryside, it is
| common to hear people use "Doutor/Doutora" the same way they
| would use the normal formal language when addressing educated
| people or land-owners.
|
| Another example many people outside Brazil find interesting: in
| my family we were taught to never use the formal towards anyone.
| The rationale is that everyone is equal and that using the formal
| language was disrespectful because it created an artificial
| distance between us and the other person. We were also taught
| never to use the formal language when praying for the same
| reason. However, other people are taught to use the formal
| language towards bosses and elders, also with a respect
| rationale, and some other folks in Brazil (even from big cities)
| actually require that their children address them with formal
| language. So now when in doubt I use the formal language with
| people that are much older than I am although that feels utterly
| unnatural to me, but I always make people comfortable to use the
| informal with me as I personally find this to be more respectful.
|
| Just one more comment: in Brazil it is unfortunately the case
| that some offices have a standard treatment like "your
| excellency", etc, which are nominally meant to respect the office
| but in reality become a kind of test of compliance and obedience.
| I recall in particular one incident where an attorney presenting
| in front of the Supreme Court was severely reprimanded for not
| address justices with the proper term. Personally, I am not sure
| that required compliance with a style - by regulation or by
| societal expectations - is indeed "respect" if it is not matched
| with actions and posture that really reflect due consideration
| towards the other person.
| inerte wrote:
| Or the judge who sued his condominium demanding its employees
| call him "doutor" (Your Honor)...
|
| As a Brazilian raised to not care about this stuff, I would say
| even rebelled a bit, it was weird to basically be required to
| do so once I reached adulthood. I remember getting in front of
| a sheriff and having to address him as "doutor". I remember
| talking to an intern in law firms and he corrected me when I
| addressed him by name saying, "No, it's DOUTOR Adriano".
|
| Gee, let's not even mention the medical field... veterinarians
| and nutritionists want to be called "doutor"...
| tdeck wrote:
| > Another example many people outside Brazil find interesting:
| in my family we were taught to never use the formal towards
| anyone. The rationale is that everyone is equal and that using
| the formal language was disrespectful because it created an
| artificial distance between us and the other person. We were
| also taught never to use the formal language when praying for
| the same reason.
|
| Interestingly this is why Quakers continued to address people
| as thou/thee long after everyone else abandoned the practice.
| Thou was originally the "informal" second person singular
| pronoun in English, "you" was plural. People used "thou" (the
| familiar form) in conversations with God. People used "you" as
| a singular pronoun to be polite. Eventually, "you" overtook
| thou.
|
| But the Quakers believed that using "you" to show respect was
| anti-egalitarian and resisted the trend for a long time.
|
| Nowadays because "thou" appears a lot in the King James Bible
| it tends to be associated with formal, archaic language, so if
| anything the connotation is the reverse.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thou
| OJFord wrote:
| A not dissimilar age thing I've found interesting is from India:
| it is (or can be? Big country) typical to age yourself by the
| year of life you're in, i.e. 1-based rather than 0-based,
| basically.
|
| On his birthday my grandfather in law said 'I am x years old!
| [...] Oh, no, x-1 _complete_. '
|
| It's funny these kinds of arbitrary systems for things we have,
| and never question, until you suddenly stumble into one that's
| slightly different.
| xenadu02 wrote:
| In the USA as a low-level employee address the company CEO as
| "heya phil, hows it going?". Then address your friend with "Hello
| Mr. Smith". In most cases you won't get a positive reaction out
| of either one of those (yes exceptions exist).
|
| How about this: address your husband/wife as "Mr/Mrs <lastname>",
| especially after a fight. Similarly when the kids have been doing
| something or you are frustrated with your partner say " _your_
| son did X ".
|
| Every language has explicit and implicit rules for expressing
| honor, respect, and closeness. Informal systems can vary more
| often and be more fluid but they always exist.
| drchickensalad wrote:
| Gotta love when you're in a 2,000 person public company, and
| you can still "heya Phil" despite not being a personal friend
| at all, and he even prefers it
| losvedir wrote:
| I actually think "heya phil" is more the norm than not.
| Certainly in tech that's the case. For example, we address the
| CEO of the company I work at (small but public) by her first
| name. From tuning into investor calls from my days in finance
| it's even common at non-tech companies.
| DiggyJohnson wrote:
| Small tech firms are notorious outliers when it comes to this
| though
| joshdavham wrote:
| How does this generally work with romantic relationships? Do
| people usually only start relationships if they are of the same
| age?
| deadbabe wrote:
| Is it more or less beneficial to birth a Korean child on December
| 31 so they can be two years in Korean Age ASAP? Thinking about
| their career prospects, certain legal requirements etc. if older
| is better, it seems like you'd want to hit that December 31st
| birth date.
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