[HN Gopher] My experiment living in a tent in Hong Kong's jungle
___________________________________________________________________
My experiment living in a tent in Hong Kong's jungle
Author : 5mv2
Score : 442 points
Date : 2025-06-07 16:40 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (corentin.trebaol.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (corentin.trebaol.com)
| hooverd wrote:
| Hmm, really makes you optimistic...
| 5mv2 wrote:
| I get that it's super hard to replicate this and have a good
| time outside of the HK jungle, but to be honest it made me a
| lot more optimistic . You see people's real colors when you ask
| them to host you in their home, and in my case the support was
| overwhelming.
| Profan wrote:
| I uhh, is this homeless larping? What in tarnation
| 5mv2 wrote:
| yeah. wouldnt have been fun if it was out of necessity
| more_corn wrote:
| How about homelessness as a strategic cost-savings experiment?
| nativeit wrote:
| I'd imagine most unhoused individuals are doing it as a
| strategic cost saving. Only, they're strategy involves eating
| and surviving rather than paying for
| unreachable/unsustainable rents. Maybe they didn't choose it,
| but it's still the strategy they're engaging in.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| There are plenty of folks who can't find housing for other
| reasons like background checks, credit score checks, etc.
| that might not be directly related to their ability to pay
| rent at that point in time.
| ejoso wrote:
| Inspiring. Bold choices.
| 5mv2 wrote:
| let me know if you try the sailboat thing in san francisco!
| more_corn wrote:
| In San Francisco you'd need to worry about the pirates.
| msgodel wrote:
| Tents aren't a good long term plan IMO. They don't protect you
| from animals. Vehicles are much better.
| 5mv2 wrote:
| Makes sense. I guess it depends on the location, since in my
| case there were no animals as long as I didn't bring food in
| the tent. And another pro is you can pitch tents in places no
| one would ever go, while it's harder for vehicles. So less
| chances of getting busted.
| IncreasePosts wrote:
| Vehicles are tied to roads more or less and make contact with
| the most dangerous animal much more likely. Keeping food out of
| the tent is probably enough to discourage most animals from
| snooping.
| iainctduncan wrote:
| This is not homelessness. This is "bandit camping". Not a value
| judgment on the act - when I was young climbing bum I did me a
| fair bit of it. But calling it homelessness is pretty insulting
| to the actual homeless, who aren't doing it by choice to optimize
| their time for a relative luxury.
| dang wrote:
| If there's a more accurate and neutral title, we can change it
| above.
|
| Edit: I've taken a crack at it. If there's a better way, we can
| change it again.
| 5mv2 wrote:
| So sorry you had to spend time changing the title! Learning
| the lesson for next time.
| yusina wrote:
| I really appreciate the new title. It's doing the topic more
| justice.
| codersfocus wrote:
| > But calling it homelessness is pretty insulting to the actual
| homeless
|
| I'm sure homeless people have more pressing thoughts than what
| words nerds on the internet use to describe outdoor living
| righthand wrote:
| Not if the nerds on the internet are stirring the societal
| discourse around you. That affects the unhoused whether they
| care or not.
| HappMacDonald wrote:
| So you're protecting people from something that even you
| admit they don't care about?
| ehnto wrote:
| You can be affected by something and not care about it.
| You can be affected by things you don't even know about,
| like the way regulations shape the houses we can live in.
| Aunche wrote:
| Even assuming this is true, that doesn't make the article
| insulting. Myths about how housing does not follow supply
| and demand affect homelessness even more, but that doesn't
| make the person spreading these myths morally wrong.
| istjohn wrote:
| There's a place for policing language, but you're not doing
| anyone any favors by gatekeeping homelessness. This is not
| involuntary homelessness, but then a large number of unhoused
| people could live under a roof if they were willing to accept
| certain tradeoffs, whether that be living with an abusive
| spouse, with an estranged parent, in a sober house, or far away
| from a community of friends. There are unhoused people who
| could scrape by in menial, arduous--and possibly dangerous--
| jobs who instead choose to live life on their own terms.
|
| Trebaol was not forced into homelessness, but he was not play-
| acting or apeing a lifestyle for kicks. He was in a situation
| where he judged squatting four and a half months illegally in
| the jungle was worth saving a mere $2,000.
|
| If you prefer to describe your past lifestyle as bandit camping
| instead of homelessness, by all means do so. But don't insist
| the rest of the world conform to your arbitrary redefinition of
| a term from its everyday meaning because it doesn't always fit
| your preconceptions.
|
| Are you really helping the unhoused by insisting that someone
| is only truly homeless if they are schizophrenic, strung out on
| fentanyl, or otherwise totally incapable of being a productive
| member of society?
| righthand wrote:
| No but it definitely normalizes the issues around
| homelessness as no big deal when you write something where
| you're intentionally homeless for financial gain.
| jwilber wrote:
| Does it? How so? If anything it showcases some of the
| trials otherwise unknown to those who don't face them (eg
| weather, tent mold).
| throwanem wrote:
| Those are trials of camping. The cops coming and tossing
| your tent and everything else you own in a dumpster,
| that's a trial of homelessness.
| mholm wrote:
| This was specifically addressed in the blogpost. This is
| illegal in Hong Kong too.
| yusina wrote:
| And it didn't happen and if it had then he'd have crashed
| on a friend's sofa. And his laptop and two suits would
| have been safe in a locker at university.
|
| An actual homeless person would have a quite different
| experience of a bust.
| luckylion wrote:
| > And it didn't happen
|
| "I decide who is homeless and who isn't in retrospect by
| analyzing whether something happened to their tent in the
| woods or whether they were not discovered".
| throwanem wrote:
| Sure. That's easier for you than talking about how
| differently things go with the cops for a rich university
| student caught tent camping on a lark, than for someone
| who is actually homeless.
| locallost wrote:
| Yes it does. A real homeless person doesn't go to the gym
| everyday to shower, or avoids bringing food to his tent
| but it's ok because "I can eat at the university", or
| charges his devices every day at the same university, or
| sleeps at their friend's place when the weather is too
| dangerous.
|
| If was an interesting read and experiment, but it has its
| limitations as a real world comparison to homelessness.
| 5mv2 wrote:
| You're right that this situation was very privileged. But
| there's not such thing as a "real homeless", it's a
| continuum. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44215698
|
| Also, virtually all the "real homeless" I met went to the
| gym to shower.
| gosub100 wrote:
| A real homeless person defecates on the ground and dumps
| his trash wherever he goes. That is the reason they are
| unwanted
| IncreasePosts wrote:
| What should you call this person without a fixed home? Perhaps
| "temporarily unhoused"?
| southernplaces7 wrote:
| Oh get over yourself with this contrived bit of supposed
| offense. Aside from it being nonsense, are you yourself
| homeless, a representative of a group of homeless people,
| someone who interviewed a number of them and asked if they're
| "offended" by anyone who doesn't absolutely have to live
| outside also using the phrase "i'm living homelessly"?
|
| Also, by your invented criteria for language monitoring, many
| homeless people in many cities would themselves no longer be
| considered homeless.
|
| Quite a few of them could somewhere, under some circumstances,
| find a place to stay even though it cost them just a bit too
| much to like, just like the guy who created this clever and
| interesting post.
| jiggunjer wrote:
| Actually the ETHOS classification system for homeless focuses
| more on where a person is living as opposed to why they're
| living like that. OP would alternate between two categories.
| t1E9mE7JTRjf wrote:
| I'm not sure this is entirely correct. Many have studied
| homelessness in an attempt to remedy it, and found that it is
| largely a choice* and thus near impossible to solve with
| resources from the outside.
|
| *Sure, not a 'Hey, this looks fun' choice, more a conscious
| understanding of a tradeoff where homelessness is not choosing
| the alternative life.
| Hnrobert42 wrote:
| I really appreciate the level of detail in this post. Not too
| little. Not too much.
|
| It does seem that being in school made this experiment distinctly
| different from just living in a tent. In a sense, tuition was
| rent. It paid for showers, electricity, and a living room with
| air conditioning (the library). It also provided a supportive
| community. School and even society at large is more inclined to
| help a poor student than an adult trying to cut rent.
|
| I make this observation not to diminish the experiment's value. I
| am just putting it in context to arrange its utility in my mind.
|
| (edit: I can't imagine why this is flagged. It is def life-
| hacking if not tech hacking.)
| 5mv2 wrote:
| Appreciate the feedback!
|
| 100%. It's a lot easier when you live next to a Google campus.
| And it sorts all the menial matters that make a huge
| difference, like access to washing machines.
|
| About the flagging, you seem to have been here for a while, any
| hint? I get the word usage can comes across as disrespectful
| now that people mention it, but didn't think a link would get
| flagged for that.
| Hnrobert42 wrote:
| I have been here for years. Most things that get flagged are
| extremely objectionable or touch a political nerve.
|
| I could see conservatives disliking that it questions
| capitalism's viability post AI. I could see liberals thinking
| you are making light of folks experiencing homelessness.
|
| I think those are absurd, but with a low vote count, your
| post may only need a few absurd people to flag you.
|
| Naturally, there could be other reasons things get flagged,
| but I never see them because they disappear too fast.
|
| You could always ask @dang to weigh in. He might see
| something which violates the guidelines.
| 5mv2 wrote:
| Makes sense. Thanks for sharing!
|
| Looks like it might have to do with the title, or at least
| the title was changed before it got unflagged. Good
| learning!
| carlosjobim wrote:
| > Most things that get flagged are extremely objectionable
|
| I unflag completely normal posts every day on the "New"
| page of HN. Many of them are actually very good posts, and
| some of them reach the number one spot of the front page
| after being unflagged.
|
| Very rarely do I see the flagged posts being very
| objectionable.
| neilv wrote:
| > _edit: I can 't imagine why this is flagged._
|
| Flagging seems to be one of the big vulnerabilities of HN.
|
| Maybe flaggers should be required to state the reason for
| flagging, and this reason should be exposed.
|
| Flagging means "no one should even see this on HN", and random
| people shouldn't get arrogant or cavalier about swinging around
| that power.
| jimmaswell wrote:
| I have my account set to show flagged comments. A lot of
| flagged comments are simply some form of "wrongthink" but not
| violating any guidelines. So I've used the function often to
| "save" a flagged thing but it seemed to have stopped working
| for me at some point. I can only speculate why, but I think I
| saw some other commenters saying that happens if you unflag
| too much.. wrongthink. I want to give the site admin the
| benefit of the doubt though. Maybe it's simply an automated
| process that notices you unflagged too many things that were
| flagged by others too much?
| neilv wrote:
| I also have that setting, and occasionally vouch for an
| inexplicably flagged comment I notice.
|
| There's definitely wrongthink/ideological flagging and
| downvoting going on.
|
| (On some comments I make, I know when I make it that it's
| going to get downvoted, because it pushes against an
| opinion of the kinds of people who will downvote to
| suppress criticism. It used to be that criticizing
| cryptocurrency would get downvotes, but now it's popular to
| criticize. I can get reliably downvoted any time that I
| suggest that adding a fee for some basic public
| infrastructure (e.g., to drive on street in a city), in a
| "market-based" way, is a handout of the basic public
| infrastructure to the wealthy. Also, suggestions that
| there's still any bias against women, in anything,
| somewhere, seems to reliably get downvotes, no matter how
| relevant; I don't know why, but I'd guess it's because the
| topic has a lot of general angry sentiment, and people who
| are angry the other direction aren't represented as much on
| HN.)
|
| I'd distinguish wrongthink from something being off-topic
| and done-to-death or a flamewar magnet. Maybe one mental
| exercise test for this is whether the same person would
| also still downvote as "topic" if the _opinion_ of the post
| /comment were flipped.
| gosub100 wrote:
| one common misconception is that "the downvote is not a
| disagree button". it absolutely is. I made that mistake
| before, in the early days of reddit they used to stress
| that mantra, and I made the false assumption it was true
| here. You are getting downvoted because people disagree
| or don't like what you have to say. simple as that.
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| Downvotes sadly are endorsed by pg (the owner of HN) for
| use to indicate disagreement.
|
| Flags are not downvotes and are not to show disagreement.
| They do seem to get used that way.
|
| I like the others above have show-flagged enabled. "90%"
| of things I vouch are things I disagree with that
| represent what I consider a point of view that deserves
| to be known, has been at least reasonably well presented,
| and isn't flame-bait.
| ksec wrote:
| >There's definitely wrongthink/ideological flagging and
| downvoting going on.
|
| I actually vouch for a lot of comments I disagree with
| that was flagged, and upvoted it because I want it to be
| shown to the world. And in other times I disagree with it
| but vouch and upvoted because I dont want HN discussions
| to be one sided.
| throw4453267 wrote:
| Throwaway here.
|
| I've lived in China for a few years and I noticed anytime
| I write anything even remotely positive about my
| experience there I will get downvoted or flagged. Even
| completely neutral comments sometimes gets downvoted.
| dgfitz wrote:
| I don't think anyone doubts there are good things that
| come from China. Using a throwaway account won't help
| your cause marketing China. Like every other "superpower"
| China has their major, major flaws. The kicker is trust.
| Pro-China rhetoric on a highly-moderated forum should be
| met with skepticism.
|
| This isn't opinion. The great firewall of China isn't a
| farce, it would be good to remember that.
| t1E9mE7JTRjf wrote:
| So because there are bad things in China nobody can say
| anything that's not negative about China? Or how do you
| see things?
| lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote:
| It sounds more like the concern is that a post coming
| from China has a significantly higher likelihood to be
| state-sponsored propaganda than a resident's/citizen's
| genuine opinion. It makes sense on its face that it would
| be "higher" (that's the point about the Great Firewall)
| but it seems to be a matter of personal opinion how
| "significant" that increase is.
| gosub100 wrote:
| > won't help your cause marketing China
|
| by what means did you determine that was his cause?
| ibaikov wrote:
| Russian here. I can't show -any- cool tech made here or
| an optimization that we do that western countries don't
| because people would say I praise Russia no matter how
| much more often and harsher I criticize. They don't even
| know what I think about the country, I just can't speak
| about it.
|
| I appreciate people who are saving flagged comments
| because what made HN great 10-15 years ago was that I
| often changed my views because people would articulate
| why they are right and they sometimes indeed were.
| unstablediffusi wrote:
| silencing the opposition creates an illusion of consensus.
| in the deluded minds of the terminally online, it is
| paramount to maintain that illusion.
|
| in every remotely political discussion here, reddit
| opinions are allowed to be expressed as non-constructively
| as you please, but all dissent, no matter how factual and
| constructive, gets flagged within minutes.
| gsf_emergency wrote:
| Apparently it's because the original headline had the
| unfortunate juxtaposition of "homelessness" &
| "experimentation"?
|
| I wouldn't be so quick to call delusion/dissent when
| designers of our spaces have simply made it far too easy
| to turn private affects into public effects..
|
| (& It might be rude of me to be so concrete.. so..
| apologies)
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44213954
|
| & What if everyone starts camping on pristine beaches?
| That'd be something! To marvel at!
| southernplaces7 wrote:
| Both downvoting and flagging are absurdities on this site.
|
| The common trend here is to have more than a few grossly
| humorless, pedantic, self-absorbed, bubble-dwelling,
| neckbeards shit all over anything they don't find precisely
| honed to their self-absorbed preferences and likes, by being
| able to flag it for no reason or whatever the fuck reason
| they want, often just because they were made unhappy by
| whatever little personal ideological fetish they nourish.
|
| Downvoting is also a blatantly idiotic system of letting any
| random asshole work to make comments invisible, many of which
| are completely okay and relevant to some discussion, and it
| slowly erases often legitimately interesting differences of
| opinion.
|
| Just to at least slightly counter the latter, I specifically
| make a point of never downvoting anything, no matter how much
| I detest the opinion, and wherever I notice a grey comment
| that doesn't deserve hate, upvote it just to counter such
| childish stupidity.
| amazingamazing wrote:
| ironic that this was flagged an downvoted with no response,
| ha.
| andrewflnr wrote:
| Not ironic at all. Downvoting and flagging exist exactly
| to handle content that is not worth the effort or even
| harmful to respond to (remember bullshit almost always
| takes more effort to debunk than to create). As such,
| it's usually a mistake to both downvote and respond.
| southernplaces7 wrote:
| Yeah, that gave me a bit of a laugh too, but the flag
| seems to be gone now at least!.
| andrewflnr wrote:
| You've already described the solution to the problem: we
| upvote things that we think are unfairly downvoted. If you
| say mildly controversial things, you can often watch this
| happen on your comments. Not that I wouldn't like reasons
| attached to downvotes and flags...
| deadbabe wrote:
| The reason for flagging here is simple: while interesting,
| this has nothing to do with tech or startups. A laptop was
| mentioned, but that's about it.
| tsimionescu wrote:
| HN is not strictly about tech or startups. So there is no
| reason to flag something based solely on the fact that it's
| not about tech or startups.
| 5mv2 wrote:
| Thankfully it's clarified here:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html
|
| But I think it's best to let the people vote if they
| value a story on how lifestyle hacking can help you go
| straight to building startups instead of having to first
| save up in a job.
| tsimionescu wrote:
| That's a page about Show HN, not HN in general. The
| guidelines for news stories like this one are here:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
|
| Specifically, I was paraphrasing this part:
|
| > That includes more than hacking and startups.
|
| Also this was not about voting or not voting, but about
| people flagging the submission.
| iainctduncan wrote:
| It was flagged because it originally had a totally different
| (and inappropriate) title.
| gsf_emergency wrote:
| I want to be able to upvote this comment just to show
| everyone how rules like "don't change the headline as
| originally given by website" or "let randos (with
| unpredictable emotional structure) flag stuff" lead to
| suboptimal outcomes
| lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote:
| Sure, but any system of rules leads to suboptimal outcomes.
| Which isn't to say the devil you know is better than the
| one you don't, just that this being a suboptimal outcome is
| not in itself a reason to change those rules. In that
| context, the title rule is rather agreeable.
|
| I usually see people complaining about misleading headlines
| when it does not match the linked article. To be fair, it
| is sometimes an improvement but the point is that it's
| always editorializing. Keeping that to a minimum only when
| the article's headline is particularly objectionable seems
| to be better than letting every poster editorialize as a
| matter of course.
| throe83949449 wrote:
| Wild camping is tolerated in Hong Kong, but this guy is going to
| ruin it for everyone. Leaving 2.5 meter high tent pitched over
| daytime near buildings, is lazy and really really bad.
|
| Stealth camping should be done in low profile tents (1.2 meters
| high). You should pitch tent at dark, and leave before sunrise.
| 5mv2 wrote:
| "I first try putting a friend 3 meters away from the tent and
| asking him to find it. Vegetation is so thick he can't. No need
| to spray camouflage!"
|
| You're safe! No one found me, and I took it away a decade ago.
| IncreasePosts wrote:
| Why does it matter if literally no one discovered it?
| lvturner wrote:
| He did it in 2016, he hasn't ruined anything.
|
| More people were openly & brazenly wild camping in HK during
| covid than this.
| xandrius wrote:
| 10 years later: did it ruin it for everyone?
| neilv wrote:
| > _and saved me close to $2k over the 4.5 months._
|
| The author wisely talks about safety considerations, but there's
| an it's-expensive-to-be-poor risk I'd like to emphasize:
|
| One injury or illness caused by the frugality could wipe out that
| $2K savings, many times over, in immediate costs, and might never
| fully heal.
|
| I think back to all the penny-pinching I did (less impressive
| than the author's), and much of it was necessary under the
| circumstances, but a very poor value tradeoff otherwise.
| 5mv2 wrote:
| Agree. I tried to describe the step by step approach to show
| how you can try this gradually and mitigate the risks, but if
| you don't have access to a community and cheap student
| healthcare it's definitely quite dangerous. I'll add word about
| this at the bottom.
|
| Edit: added! thanks for the feedback again
| testing22321 wrote:
| Cripplingly Expensive healthcare is only an issue in one
| country in the world.
|
| I've been to the ER in Ecuador, Mali, Angola, Australia,
| Canada. Even as a tourist it was so cheap I didn't bother using
| any travel insurance ( less than $50, including prescriptions)
| titanomachy wrote:
| I went to the ER in Canada (BC) a couple years ago, and they
| charged $950 to my credit card just to walk in the door.
| Everything else was extra, and charged at rates not wildly
| different from what I've seen in the US. And I'm a Canadian
| citizen! (I had temporarily lost my free healthcare
| eligibility because I lived outside the country for a few
| years.)
|
| Can't comment on all the other countries you listed, although
| I can add that urgent care in Germany was pretty reasonably
| priced.
| alehlopeh wrote:
| It seems unlikely that there is not a single other country
| with "cripplingly expensive healthcare" besides the USA. I'm
| also of the opinion that there are more than 6 countries
| total.
| testing22321 wrote:
| Please name one with cripplingly expensive healthcare.
| drooby wrote:
| India
| zo1 wrote:
| An "ER visit" can be a completely benign and simple thing
| that happens after-hours but really you just needed a
| nurse/doct, OR it could be a life-changing set of multiple
| surgeries and tests and treatments and and and. Let's not
| dismiss how very-real emergency costs can be, just because we
| don't like the messed-up american healthcare billing mess.
| I've been to an emergency room in South Africa, as an
| example, and off the bat it cost about $100. That's almost
| monthly average salary of a huge portion of the population
| here!
| frakkingcylons wrote:
| Lucky that you happened to be in need in countries with a low
| cost of living. I needed an ambulance, stitches, and an MRI
| in Germany and it cost me $2000 USD. I wish I had travel
| insurance then.
| mikem170 wrote:
| Then again having an extra $2k in the bank might prove
| beneficial - perhaps preventing a personal catastrophe in a the
| near future. Or open doors that might make a significant
| difference down the road.
|
| Risk is complicated, anything could happen. Not just doom and
| gloom. Individuals circumstances and appetite for risk versus
| reward varies.
| larrysalibra wrote:
| If he was on a student visa in Hong Kong he was able to access
| public health care for close to free.
|
| All Hong Kong residents are eligible (anyone with an HKID and
| permission to remain >= 180 days).
| ddeck wrote:
| True in many places, but in Hong Kong, the cost of an A&E visit
| or hospital admission for the author (presumably on a student
| visa) at that time was about USD15/day.
| verall wrote:
| Is that UST? If it is - it's really incredibly stunningly
| beautiful, that view. I envy the bravery giving you that sight to
| see every morning.
| 5mv2 wrote:
| Yes exactly! It's UST. Beautiful view :)
| coggs wrote:
| I lived and worked on the HKUST campus in the 90's.. Very
| picturesque. Surrounding coastline very rugged. He picked a
| good spot. No egress there at the bottom of the hill. Fun
| fact: He camped just below the historic location of Shaw
| Studios, who popularized the Kung Fu movie genre
| m3kw9 wrote:
| Very nice write up, cool experiment and very intriguing
| ambicapter wrote:
| The "Community Support" section is really touching.
| more_corn wrote:
| I concur. The experiences couch surfing were the most
| interesting part (aside from the psychological calm of sleeping
| and waking outside)
| 5mv2 wrote:
| Glad you liked this! It was so great I've been meaning to do
| this again for years but never made the leap by fear of being a
| nuisance.
|
| I honestly think everyone would be much happier and less lonely
| if sleep-overs didn't stop being a thing as we reach adult age.
| paxys wrote:
| The ROI calculation is way too short sighted to be meaningful. To
| start you are already paying college tuition, and the expectation
| is to get an education that will help you pay off the loans (and
| then some). Going a few hundred deeper in the hole every month to
| have a roof over your head (you know, the most basic requirment
| for humans after water and food) is a no brainer and will
| massively _increase_ your education ROI. A couple months of
| "homeless man" cosplay is probably fun and games but start to
| face the heat, cold, humidity, animals, police, theft, physical
| danger and more and those As aren't going to remain As for long.
| 5mv2 wrote:
| You're right that I was arguably irrationally attached to not
| ending uni with too much debt.
|
| For the rest, I'm with you it might be hard to replicate beyond
| this n = 1 sample, but I'm convinced this experiment's ROI is
| actually much more positive than suggested in the post.
|
| Not only did I get better grades that semester from being
| forced to spend more time in the library, but I learned a lot
| living at people's places afterwards, and, most importantly,
| the feeling of freedom from materials matters allowed me to
| make bolder bets that paid back multiple times over.
|
| You can even go further: even if my grades had gone down, I
| still would have been more employable for many types of
| companies, starting with early stage startups.
| bboygravity wrote:
| Doesn't living in a tent also make you less vulnerable to
| smartphone and laptop addictions?
|
| I noticed in myself that when I stay in minimal places
| (camping/jungle hut/tent), I tend to be more connected to the
| real world and less addicted. More productivity, clearer
| thought.
| Tijdreiziger wrote:
| I read a comment on Reddit along the lines of 'if you
| doomscroll every day to wake up, you wreck your dopamine
| levels for the day before even getting out of bed'.
|
| I don't have enough medical knowledge to assess this claim,
| but I made a simple rule: don't touch the phone before
| getting out of bed! (except to turn off the alarm)
|
| So far, it really seems to work!
| lugu wrote:
| This is even more true for kids. Zero screen in the
| morning.
| 5mv2 wrote:
| That's another huge plus yes! I made a point of never
| bringing my laptop and turning off data on my phone before
| going every night.
|
| Hard to quantify how much of a difference this made, but it
| definitely translated in higher drive and propensity to
| being present.
| dangus wrote:
| That sounds like an unrelated problem to your own
| addictions.
|
| Arguably a dorm is pretty minimal as well, it's just a
| climate controlled room with a bed.
|
| If you have to physically remove yourself from housing to
| stop using technology negatively, that's an addiction
| problem, not a problem with housing.
| 5mv2 wrote:
| That's definitely true, but you also see how some
| settings make it easier to be virtuous than others right?
|
| Also, the success apps like tiktok and instagram does
| suggest addiction is more the norm than the exception.
| knuppar wrote:
| Better grades: could've spent more time in the library while
| paying rent anyway.
|
| Learned a lot living at people's places: you could plan a
| month of no accomodation and couch surf, don't think that's
| such a stretch. More fundamentally, the tent piece was just a
| "social opener" to learn more about others. Many other things
| can be this social opener.
|
| Material freedom: I buy that the experiment showed you that
| and that's awesome, but I also think some solid therapy
| around one's understanding of material reality could play a
| similar role.
| 5mv2 wrote:
| For the grades, it's true you could always spend more time
| in the library out of sheer willpower. It was nice just to
| be nudged into it by this lifestyle, and definitely helped
| as willpower is limited.
|
| People's places: have you heard of people doing this? I'm
| genuinely curious because I could never bring myself to be
| a nuisance if I didn't absolutely need it, meaning the
| blocker is definitely real yet fully in my head here.
|
| Material freedom: I guess I haven't seen enough to agree
| with this one yet. The only intellectual pursuit I know
| that would genuinely get you closer to not caring about
| life so much as to reduce your fear in homelessness is the
| study of physics!
| danans wrote:
| > but start to face the ... animals, police, theft, physical
| danger and more and those As aren't going to remain As for
| long.
|
| These are the real dangers that a roof and walls offer you
| protection from. If you happen to find a benign niche where
| you don't face these threats, it's likely because there is an
| invisible layer of defense being provided to you by the
| societal structures around you.
| rambambram wrote:
| Why put this experience along some pseudo-objective yardstick?
| Just read the article, the author tells you already how he
| experienced it and why he decided to do this. If you would not
| do this yourself, that's okay, but don't take away from the
| author like this.
| constantcrying wrote:
| Interesting article about alternative living, I understand why
| you would do this _for fun_ , but obviously the risk vs. reward
| calculation makes no sense.
|
| The convenience of a place with electricity, running water, a
| table and chair, you are legally allowed to sleep there, etc.
| Seems _easily_ worth 450 Dollars a month. In the end he says he
| saved 2k, but that is not a relevant amount of money to save over
| months if you become a software developer in America.
| caydenpiercehax wrote:
| I lived in the woods during my undergrad too:
| https://medium.com/@caydenpierce4/the-homeless-hippie-cyborg...
|
| This was in between two stints living and working in a mobile RV
| hacker lab: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AT1gPmQQkxI
|
| I'm in SF now and we'd probably be best friends.
| aapeli wrote:
| > This turns into a surprisingly intense experience. I get to
| meet people in their most intimate space and bond over late-night
| conversations in ways that never would have happened otherwise.
|
| This is much like the couch surfing experience: staying with
| people for a few days and sharing their space, which often ends
| in these deep, late-night conversations. It's an incredible
| experience.
|
| There are a few platforms for that, I recommend Couchers.org.
| It's free & open source (and I'm one of the core maintainers).
| lazyeye wrote:
| Odd given all his efforts so far, that when attempting to live
| cheaply in San Fran, getting a drivers license to live in a van
| was too big an obstacle to overcome.
| 5mv2 wrote:
| It's a while back, but I think it's because you have to be a
| resident for at least 6 months to be eligible to getting a
| driver's license in a given country.
|
| And getting the driving experience is not cheap if you don't
| know people who have a car you can borrow!
| ksec wrote:
| >and saved me close to $2k over the 4.5 months.
|
| Ok I was expecting a lot more. So it is one $450 USD per month?
| That doesn't very low. I guess HK Uni have decent discounts. But
|
| >Living in Hong Kong without a dorm room would push rent up to at
| least $700 a month
|
| Unless you only rent a bed with share washrooms and kitchen I can
| assure you it is not $700 but much closer to $1K if not higher
| depending on your living standard requirements.
|
| If only this experience could reach media outlet. Hong Kong's
| rental or property pricing is just crazy expensive relative to
| what they offer.
| eptcyka wrote:
| The camping took place in 2016, almost 10 years ago. Could it
| be that you are referencing contemporary prices?
| 5mv2 wrote:
| You're both right. It was 10 years ago and my living
| requirements definitely were low
|
| Another reason is that Hong Kong has a lot more affordable
| housing in the outskirts, like in the village of Tai Po Tsai
| that borders this university.
| danielvf wrote:
| For camping in humid summers, it's amazing how much difference a
| power bank and little fan can make. A little electricity goes a
| long way.
| yusina wrote:
| Tell that to a _real_ homeless who typically as to be very
| creative to even just charge their phone. If they have one.
| daedrdev wrote:
| There are a number of homeless students at UC berkley
| 999900000999 wrote:
| Cool story, but this seems like a really good way to get your
| visa revoked if caught.
|
| I kinda understand doing this if at home, and you have no other
| options. But this comes off as reckless and somewhat naive. To
| save 2K over a few months you risked serious injury, violated the
| terms of your visa and ultimately felt a need to humble brag
| about it.
|
| Not everything needs to be shared.
| bhaskara2 wrote:
| It was a fun read nevertheless
| Onavo wrote:
| Why doesn't Hong Kong fix their real estate problem?
| tomcam wrote:
| I have to admit I never had to consider falling boulders in my
| brief bout with homelessness
| mgaunard wrote:
| I'm more shocked of how you can have a meal for 1 or 3 dollars.
| 5mv2 wrote:
| Hong Kong food is rice-based and rice is cheap!
|
| Here's some famous advice from Hong Kong's richest man:
|
| --
|
| A daily breakfast of vermicelli, an egg and a cup of milk.
|
| For lunch just have a simple set lunch, a snack and a fruit.
|
| For dinner go to your kitchen and cook your own meals that
| consist of two vegetables dishes and a glass of milk before
| bedtime.
|
| For one month the food cost is probably $500-$600. When you are
| young, the body will not have too many problems for a few years
| with this way of living.
|
| --
|
| Note he's talking HKD, and HKD 550 translates into about USD
| 70.
| dewey wrote:
| Unlike rent, everything else in HK can be pretty affordable and
| it's pretty easy to have decent food for < 5 dollars / meal in
| HK if you go to non-western places.
|
| There's "This-This Rice" places (Rice + 2 other ingredients
| like meat / vegetables) that usually have big portions and feel
| somewhat healthy.
| patcon wrote:
| I did this in Toronto and SF for a few summers in my 30s, well
| into my "real life" and beyond college. It was transformative,
| like creating my own UBI. Found all the same benefits: mundane
| daily moments become magical. Unexpected hospitality of strangers
| when I [on rare occasion] needed it. Admiration of friends and
| strangers. Etc etc
|
| The main thing I did different was using a hammock tent (10min
| setup, 10min teardown each day). So I stayed in very public
| places (right off major foot traffic routes) and just went to bed
| early and got up at sunrise.
|
| Also, I told everyone. No authority cared that i was doing it. In
| fact, i was organizing weekly events for government employees
| (some quite high level), and they all thought it was hilarious
| and were supportive.
|
| Here's my learnings: https://github.com/patcon/urban-camping
|
| EDIT: Ah, and these were my notes from living in rented shipping
| containers with a friend: https://github.com/patcon/container-
| city/wiki/Notes
| burnt-resistor wrote:
| Sounds similar to backpacking through {India | Camino de
| Santiago}.
|
| I think it's important for every young adult who becomes a
| well-rounded adult to have experienced a short term of
| deprivation so they have a frame-of-reference what others in
| less fortunate situations experience. <my-two-centidollars>The
| problem today is that there are too many mean, spoiled
| individuals with way too much power lacking theory of mind, a
| sense of community, and basic human compassion.</my-two-
| centidollars>
| 5mv2 wrote:
| Love the actionable advice like "I rent a PO Box for about $200
| per year."
| gosub100 wrote:
| That's about the 2 week drug and alcohol budget for an
| average homeless person. Homeless means no permanent shelter,
| not "forbidden to acquire and use money"
| koakuma-chan wrote:
| > So I stayed in very public places
|
| "I'm currently tenting in the backyard of a friend's place."
|
| "Tenting in a park is not something I'm comfortable advising
| right now :)"
|
| Any solutions other than a friend's backyard?
| directevolve wrote:
| I did this for a summer in a beautiful spot in rural Oregon as I
| was contemplating a career change, living out of my Prius
| compact. It was a special time, though not something I would do
| long term.
| yusina wrote:
| That was surely a great experiment. But it's _very_ different
| from _actual_ homelessness. I would have appreciated if the
| author had acknowledged that more. It 's closer to a backpacker-
| in-a-tent-in-the-mountains experience than homelessness. In the
| latter, the living-in-a-tent is just a comparatively minor aspect
| of the experience.
|
| This was a choice (essentially to save money) and the author had
| multiple fallback plans. Real homelessness is born out of
| desperation and lack of alternatives. Tragedies of mental health
| issues, abuse, severe financial distress, no savings, debt,
| warrants. No nice shower at the gym, no locker to keep a laptop
| and two suits. The constant fear of not just the police but also
| of getting robbed by another homeless, likely after something to
| sell for drugs. That's very different from anytime being able to
| crash on somebody's sofa to save on rent so you can earlier
| "afford to build companies".
|
| We can even see it in one of the later paragraphs where potential
| spots in the bay area are evaluated. The local homeless should
| not be close. Oh, they shouldn't? _That_ gives you an idea of the
| conditions _actual_ homeless folks need to live under.
| syllogism wrote:
| Homelessness is a somewhat broad category though. There's lots
| of people couch-surfing between friends and their car. They're
| also in a very different position from people who are sleeping
| rough.
| burnt-resistor wrote:
| I only experienced traditional rough sleeping homelessness
| once when my "house" (my van) was towed and I had to sleep in
| an hostile architecture bus stop bench that had ridges
| between each "seat" area. Otherwise, I was technically
| "homeless"/vanliving in SV from about 2010-2019.
| larodi wrote:
| Van is still a home, isn't it?
| erikerikson wrote:
| The word home can apply to a van. I also know people who
| are considered unhoused/homeless whose home is a van.
| 5mv2 wrote:
| Author here. I get this view, I just think it's worth
| underlining how biased it is to the SF Bay area dystopian
| situation.
|
| I've actually gone out of my way to meet homeless in the Bay.
| You'd be surprised how much of a continuum homelessness is.
| Most are definitely living hell on earth, but many I personally
| met have both fallbacks and money. Could be they're too
| attached to their family's image of them. Or that they weirdly
| enough have a better life now - I met a guy who led a small
| community and made quite some money from crime, he could have
| afforded to live anywhere, but this would mean taking a menial
| job like he had in the past, and he didn't want that.
|
| Of course, the disclaimer is that many homeless care a lot
| about their self-image and will create stories to justify their
| current situation so it's hard to judge. But the point still
| stands that, even in hell of earth for the homeless, you'll
| find it's a continuum. And the world is much broader than SF -
| I've met people at every point of the spectrum, the most
| extreme being a multi-millionaire who lived Swiss forests for
| fun!
|
| To summarize, there is no "actual homelessness", it's not a
| boolean but a spectrum, and I fail to see how gatekeeping the
| use of the most adequate word in this situation helps anyone.
|
| If the problem is that it using the word comes across as
| disrespectful to people who mainly know homelessness through
| the prism of the Bay Area, maybe another avenue could be to add
| a link at the end of the article to promote a relevant NGO,
| which I'm definitely open to adding if people suggest a good
| one.
| yusina wrote:
| I'm not sure where all your mentions of the Bay Area come
| from. I'm writing from a European perspective, and in all
| major European cities you find homelessness prevalent. And
| it's not pretty.
|
| A millionaire in the Swiss forest is not homeless. Choosing
| to live in a tent is not homelessness. To me, the term
| "homeless" implies a lack of alternatives. As soon as it's a
| choice, to see romantic sunrises or fall asleep to ocean
| waves or whatever, that is, if calles "homeless", to me, a
| misuse of the term. It's a nice life, I've done it too and
| loved it, but I'd not start to call it "homelessness" and
| place myself into the same category as the poor souls
| sleeping under a bridge.
|
| Of course it's a spectrum. Some folks have been forced out of
| their home and are living out of a car while finding a new
| place. That's homelessness. For some of those, it's
| temporary. For others, it's a spiral into misery, next is to
| lose the job, having a mental health issue, soon the car
| breaks down, and eventually they are sleeping under a bridge.
| Insubstantial of whether it's in SF, Berlin, Sao Paulo or
| Tokyo. Similarities to a concious choice are only
| superficial. Once it's a choice, it's outside the spectrum
| and is doing the fight against homelessness a disservice.
| marci wrote:
| - people living out of their car (homelessness)
|
| - Vanlife (not homelessness)
|
| - living in a tent out of necessity (homelessness)
|
| - living in a tent for an experiment/fun/holidays (not
| homelessness)
| yusina wrote:
| Exactly. Thank you.
| ryeats wrote:
| Im still having trouble understanding why this
| destinction matters here. Your saying there is a
| difference between making choices that resulted in
| homeless being the only option and choosing homelessness
| because its the best available option?
| collingreen wrote:
| No, I think they are trying to say it would be helpful in
| the larger discussion of homelessness to have more nuance
| than just "not in a house" because, like both "sides" in
| the thread above keep hitting each other with, it's a
| wide, complicated, and nuanced topic.
|
| The folks pushing for different words seems to be coming
| from a fear that grouping all "not sleeping in a home"
| into one bucket risks having stories like this (opt-in,
| mentally capable, not-in-deep-danger, safety net) make
| ALL homelessness seem easier or safer or a choice, which
| is a common pushback for helping people in modern
| politics (get a job, shouldn't have had sex/been dressed
| that way, shouldn't have tried drugs, etc). There is also
| a trauma of so much bad faith out there in the world
| right now making this kind of point implicitly on purpose
| (along the same vein as "I'm just asking questions").
|
| They aren't phrasing it that succinctly but that's my
| good faith reading.
|
| The holy war on the other side is "don't project your XYZ
| on my story" and "don't put words in my mouth" which seem
| valid to me given the context; I think someone should be
| able to tell their own story in good faith without being
| responsible for how other use it, within reason, which is
| likely not a terribly controversial take.
|
| I personally see points in both sides and mostly think
| this is an issue because of the choice of venue. I think
| it isn't helpful to start an argument/debate without
| agreeing on what to argue/debate about and we're seeing
| that here (plus the topic being a proxy argument for a
| group of underlying political/social philosophy values
| not directly being discussed).
| marci wrote:
| If at any point you can find a place of your choosing to
| rent within a few days without any hassle, you're not
| homeless. You're not in the category of person that could
| need help.
|
| > Your saying there is a difference between making
| choices that resulted in homeless being the only option
| and choosing homelessness because its the best available
| option?
|
| Absolutely. For example, if a city wants to build systems
| to help them, one group would need counseling, temporary
| housing, while the other would rather haver access to
| public showers, a dispensary, and another group none of
| that.
|
| Let say you're in a place that attracts a lot of
| backpacker/vanlife, whatever you build there you would
| make people pay for it. There would not be any food bank
| close to that place.
| vehemenz wrote:
| I think most people understand this, but in reality many
| homeless do have a choice in their living situation. This
| idea that they can't possibly have chosen their life
| reduces the homeless to human-like primates with no agency.
| Often they have a sense of personal dignity and are capable
| of making their own decisions, despite how destitute we see
| their situation.
| knuppar wrote:
| Have you talked to homeless people?
|
| My experience is from Sao Paulo and Seattle but
| entertaining this notion that it's a thought-out choice
| full of intention is wild. Most homeless people just want
| some shade of stability and would leave that situation
| any day any time if given resources.
|
| They are not primates with 0 agency but most societies
| don't really give them a lot of options.
| diggan wrote:
| > To me, the term "homeless" implies a lack of alternatives
|
| Why does it imply that? Many homeless have alternatives,
| but they aren't either applicable, or the person don't
| simply want that. Just as one example, a homeless person
| with a dog could probably get rid of their dog so they can
| stay at the homeless-shelter, but instead chose their close
| bond with their dog over that. Does that suddenly mean the
| person isn't homeless?
|
| Another (personal example) is when I first arrived to
| Barcelona and barely could afford food. I spent two nights
| sleeping outside in the city instead of paying hostel fees,
| so technically I had the choice of spending a bit of money
| so I had roof for the night. Lets say that situation was
| longer instead of just two nights, would I not count as
| homeless then because I could have spent my money
| differently?
| metalforever wrote:
| The homeless shelter situations in the bay area have
| waitlists. Some of the encampments also have waitlists
| (!). A lot of the homeless actually work in the bay area,
| some of them far away. Being in line in time to get a
| spot on a shelter is a task by itself and can be mutually
| exclusive with working. There is so much at play here you
| do not understand well. If we assume you are well
| meaning, you need to know that some politicians are not
| telling the truth about the true state of things.
| diggan wrote:
| > There is so much at play here you do not understand
| well
|
| Yeah, I mean I don't live in the bay area, nor have I
| ever visited the place. My experience is mainly about
| homelessness in Spain I guess.
|
| So whatever you think I've got from American politics, I
| can ensure you I haven't and it's entirely based on on-
| the-ground experience where I live.
|
| Besides saying "You don't know the truth", is there any
| specific you can respond to from my comment you feel is
| incorrect or you disagree with?
| bloomingeek wrote:
| Jeez, our fellow eggheads are nit picking your story to the
| extreme. I loved your story because it's about problem
| solving. Your listing of the pros and cons is some of the
| best parts. Well done!
| hitekker wrote:
| Some people like to treat homelessness as sacred. The image
| of a spotless victim, who has no choice but to suffer, is
| an object of veneration, even love.
|
| It's an odd sort of worship but very common in the Bay
| Area.
| metalforever wrote:
| You have no idea what is going on in the bay area homeless
| situation. I am not discounting your experiment, which was
| very interesting, but you cannot apply your experiences to
| the bay area homeless situation.
| pieds wrote:
| PG recently wrote this:
|
| > If something isn't important to know, there's no answer to
| the question of why people don't know it. Not knowing random
| facts is the default. But if you're going to write about
| things that are important to know, you have to ask why your
| readers don't already know them. Is it because they're smart
| but inexperienced, or because they're obtuse?
|
| So you can claim to have been homeless, or have experience
| having been homeless, but then you will be judged as having
| that experience. That isn't how you presented the story, but
| as a successful experiment where living in a dorm for $450 a
| month was also a good option. The redeeming lesson from such
| an experiment is that "being homeless isn't that bad" because
| "you weren't really homeless" not because "others also could
| have somewhere to live". The two has completely different
| implications.
|
| You aren't being "gatekept" out of bad faith, but because it
| is nicer to believe that you are mistaken than the
| alternative. Because if you claim to actually have been
| homeless the story reads more like you put yourself above the
| rules, didn't consider your friends and don't understand the
| difference.
| Laaas wrote:
| What is the purpose of this comment? Gatekeeping him and
| telling him he wasn't _actually_ homeless?
| yusina wrote:
| I find it useful that terms have meaning and one can
| distinguish between what belongs to it and what doesn't.
|
| A pork steak is a piece of meat taken from a pig. Once it's
| made of beans or some mushroom it may still be tasty (and I
| love good veggie food), but it's not a pork steak.
|
| Similarly, the term "homeless" also has a certain meaning,
| and using it for something else muddies communication waters.
| And at worst, it makes the fight against actual homelessness
| harder: Next time some tax dollar is planned to be used for
| relief, somebody will point to those cases and say "well some
| homeless enjoy the sunrise and love the outdoors and have two
| suits in locker, and ain't none of my tax dollars go to
| that!!"
|
| If you want to call that "gatekeeping", then sure. What's the
| purpose of your comment then? Gatekeeping me and telling me I
| should not call out the misuse of the term?
| larodi wrote:
| Common meaning is the protocol prerequisite for
| understanding and very often undervalued.
|
| Words bring vibrations? Perhaps I don't know, but they
| bring very strong meaning very often and in most languages
| also, even though English being famous for the same word
| meaning different things in different contexts, the
| conveyed meaning itself is still very important.
|
| And homeless implies less of something which can be a moral
| choice also, but still there's the 'less' which is not
| there when your bank account has enough for other options.
| The mental less in homelessness is bitter and very often
| related to certain major calamity.
| eastbound wrote:
| Gatekeeping words would be important if it were respected.
| Unfortunately it is not, when the context doesn't favor a
| specific flavour of the outcome.
|
| Example in France, "homeless" is called SDF, and it means
| "no home" (no fixed address to receive mail, although
| shelters allow mail) but doesn't mean "no roof". And that
| was done to include women, because women were practically
| not represented on the street, as they often have someone
| who can host them, even if they cannot call it home. There
| is no word (except derogatory like "Claudo", or workarounds
| like "on the street") to describe the homelessness that men
| suffer.
|
| Now, since women represent 16% SDF, but most of them are
| hosted, they do not tend to die during winters. They do not
| tend to face street violence. They do not match those
| stats. Unfortunately, since they still represent 16% of
| SDF, they also get reserved budgets in addition to the
| budgets which are destined to homelessness in general (and
| which are themselves already allocated with a slant towards
| the female gender - the whole thing is absolutely
| despicable).
|
| So, since words are perverted for political goals precisely
| in this area, I'd rather we let history written by the
| writers, with their own appreciation of the words' meaning.
| The usual side will win again, but when there is an odd
| article not written in "the correct way", let it live.
| tasuki wrote:
| Are you saying it's not _actual homelessness_ because it was a
| choice?
|
| Wikipedia says homelessness is "the condition of lacking
| stable, safe, and functional housing". It doesn't say anything
| about it having to be a choice. I know people who say they're
| homeless by choice. Would you say that's an oxymoron?
| larodi wrote:
| These are two very different things. Experiencing living in a
| tent for longer periods does not immediately equate forced
| live in poverty.
| angusturner wrote:
| By the definition you have provided though, someone that has
| access to stable, safe or functional housing but then chooses
| to not to use it (eg opting to camp instead), is not
| homeless.
|
| Edit: the word "lack" really is the key word. This implies no
| choice, right?
| stinkbeetle wrote:
| I don't follow what you're getting at. OP did not have the
| budget to afford a house so he had to go homeless. He could
| have made other choices to afford a house sure, but many
| other homeless people could also theoretically make choices
| that would enable them to get housing.
| celticninja wrote:
| The author has the opportunity to make choices about
| their situation, homeless people lack that choice, they
| can't just go get a job, or they can't get the money
| together for a deposit. They can't afford to travel to
| where the work is.
|
| Theoretically they could choose to get treatment for
| addiction or mental health problems, but practically that
| isn't available to them.
| stinkbeetle wrote:
| > The author has the opportunity to make choices about
| their situation, homeless people lack that choice,
|
| As adjudicated by whom?
|
| > they can't just go get a job, or they can't get the
| money together for a deposit. They can't afford to travel
| to where the work is.
|
| Many could actually. Some could move to lower cost of
| living areas. Some could choose to get education or
| training that enables them to get a job in the future.
| Some could get jobs, some could certainly move to where
| there are jobs. Some could choose to quit recreational
| drugs and alcohol. Some could use their welfare or
| disability payments and move to lower cost of living
| areas. Some who dislike living with others could choose
| to put housing above that preference and could afford
| move into group housing. Many do these things actually, I
| have heard many first hand stories from people getting
| themselves out of homelessness.
|
| So how are we weighing up all these choices and deciding
| who is a "valid homeless" and who is not?
| erikerikson wrote:
| I can lack(/not have) a jacket because I choose not to
| bring one with me. I don't think lack necessarily makes any
| assertions about choosing to lack something.
| justinclift wrote:
| Doesn't seem like it. What's the address he would have
| given for mail sent to him when in the tent?
|
| ie doesn't seem like there'd be a functional one that would
| work
|
| So it's pretty clear he didn't have an "official" home
| during that period.
| firesteelrain wrote:
| When I went to college, I had a PO box. Not sure how it
| works in Hong Kong, but I presume something similar. My
| apartment on campus did not have a PO Box but my college
| did.
| yusina wrote:
| > I know people who say they're homeless by choice.
|
| To me, that's a blatant misnomer. Elon Musk also calls
| himself "homeless". (By choice, quite obviously.) There is
| not much to discuss once the term is assigned that meaning.
| firesteelrain wrote:
| In the US, you can live in campgrounds year round in a tent.
| Usually a nominal fee with access to amenities. Similarly,
| author of the article chose to live in a tent right next door
| to the University where he had access to amenities. I can
| totally see the analogous situation here. It was a way to
| save money not a necessity. Both situations don't make you
| homeless.
|
| That's my takeaway and others on the difference here.
| Homelessness driven by choices then turn into necessity to
| live. I don't think responding to the sentiment with
| technical definitions from Wikipedia is the right discourse
| either (as done in other comments not yours). You can see the
| problem with this story without having to cite your comment
| to try to bring some strength to it.
| lugu wrote:
| Living in a camping is safe and stable. Hiding from the
| police isn't safe and stable. That is a key difference. I
| am not sure what you try to say.
| firesteelrain wrote:
| Its pretty clear I think you are wrong. Author wasn't
| homeless.
| gosub100 wrote:
| The words mean what they say they mean in order for their
| party to win elections. It's that simple. You deny it, they
| scream out in victimhood.
| collingreen wrote:
| This shouldn't be downvoted even though it is a jaded take.
| I think this is EXACTLY what is on full display from all
| sides in this thread (to the point that it should get
| probably get locked).
| antonvs wrote:
| Words have connotations. The word "homeless" has very strong
| connotations of poverty and the associated lack of options,
| i.e. lack of choices.
|
| So yes, considering it not to be actual homelessness if it's
| a choice is perfectly reasonable. You can't wikipedia-lawyer
| your way to a functional understanding of natural language.
| throw_a_grenade wrote:
| Stuff that we consider abnormal (homelessness,
| migration/seeking asylum, etc.) is at some point personal
| decision (,,I'm going to try to move to the next country,
| whatever it takes"), even if usually are not perceived as real
| choices, e.g. when the alternative is a lack of food or to
| sustain persecution. But a decision nonetheless, and one that
| will be taken by resourceful people, those who can spend a
| night or a fortnight in a tent.
|
| If you know how to survive in a forest, you're a good candidate
| for a homeless or a migrant. Such decision point might be
| closer than you think.
| yusina wrote:
| Calling it a "choice" to seek asylum in another country
| because of war or threat of death in someone's home country
| for e.g. sexual orientation reasons is beyond cynical and
| cruel.
|
| I truly hope you will never be in such a situation and then
| meeting somebody telling you that you are a refugee because
| of a choice you made.
| kortilla wrote:
| Seeking asylum is absolutely a choice. Both in choosing to
| leave the country and where you choose to go.
| yusina wrote:
| The step from "it's a choice" to "it's your fault" is
| very small. There is a whole industry of populists
| thriving on the lack of distinguishing between these two.
|
| Tech people often miss the social connotations such terms
| bring with them. Understandable, as many got into tech
| because of its clear definitions and lack of ambiguity
| and baggage, but the real world just doesn't work that
| way, and we have to acknowledge this.
| throw_a_grenade wrote:
| This is HN, not fediverse, I thougt we can have a
| discussion that would involve making a distinction on
| this nuance (choice vs decision vs responsibility vs
| fault), instead on casting general aspersions, as is the
| case in other social media.
| throw_a_grenade wrote:
| Not my choice, but my decision. It's not a question of
| responsibility of the a priori situation, but the moment
| that I snap and decide I can't take it any more. _I need to
| do something._ And not doing something is also a decision.
|
| I helped a bit as a volunteer in an orga that among other
| things worked with refugees and I heard their stories.
| Every single one had this moment that one day they have
| risen and took ownership of their lives, instead of
| succumbing to helplessness. If they didn't, they probably
| wouldn't make it. That is something to admire.
|
| One thing migrants and homeless need is to recognise
| they're humans that are disposed to make decisions about
| themselves, by themselves. To deny that is cruel, because
| it's inhumane. Humans can make decisions, non-humans can
| not. I don't know how it is on other side of the pond, but
| over here in Europe there's a big campaign to portray
| refugees (and all migrants) as non- (or sub-) humans, and
| denying them agency is part of that effort.
| yusina wrote:
| Right. And just as little as a refugee can decide their
| way out of the situation that their home country is in
| chaos and war, a homeless person rarely can decide their
| way out of poverty. The latter may have made choices
| earlier in life that contributed to their situation, but
| just claiming "well it's their choice that they are
| homeless" is not doing justice to the situation out
| there. Unless of course the situation _is_ a choice, like
| for Elon Musk. At any point he could move into a
| permanent home wherever. It 's absurd to use the same
| term for his situation as for an average person living
| under a bridge in SF.
| throw_a_grenade wrote:
| I don't know SF homeless, but if you'd come ove here,
| you'd be surprised. Some of the refugees I met were
| "normal people" in their previous years, smart, well
| educated, well paid, resourceful. Some of them were much,
| much richer than me. That's simply because the poor in
| their country lack the means to even start the journey.
| They are those who have no choice but to rot to death
| (sometimes literally, sometimes figuratively). But not
| those who chose to leave the circumstances.
|
| I'm not sure about the exact context of the language you
| quoted(not a native speaker), but ISTM you mean "well
| it's their choice that they are homeless" as somehow
| demeaning. Is it used in your country as a rhetorical
| device to imply that a person could have just chosen not
| to be poor (or persecuted), and then as an excuse not to
| help someone in need? That's very wrong and not matching
| reality I saw. Usually the choice was to either flee or
| something even worse happens to him/her (or the family).
| Levitating wrote:
| > Real homelessness is born out of desperation and lack of
| alternatives.
|
| There's no single cause or experience for being homeless.
| There's no "real homelessness" either.
|
| You might be interested to read "20-25% of all 'homeless'
| actually have housing" by Kevin Dahlgren.
|
| https://truthonthestreets.substack.com/p/20-25-of-all-homele...
| greensh wrote:
| the same david dalgren who was sentenced for stealing
| identities of homeless people and stealing funds?
|
| https://www.yahoo.com/news/kevin-dahlgren-former-gresham-
| emp...
|
| also this seems a really entitled take to say, "there is no
| homelessness" when there clearly is.
| Levitating wrote:
| It's the same Kevin Dahlgren. I don't know the complete
| story, but he allegedly wrote off transactions under fake
| names when doing work for the municipality of Gresham. I
| did remember reading somewhere that the goods he bought
| were given to the homeless but I don't remember where I
| read it.
|
| Regardless I still really enjoy reading his blog.
|
| > also this seems a really entitled take to say, "there is
| no homelessness" when there clearly is.
|
| He's never said that and that's not the point of the
| article I linked either. Kevin has dedicated his life to
| recording the life of homeless people so he's clearly aware
| of it's presence. I think his work is quite important.
| There doesn't appear to be many people researchig
| homelessness who actually spend time on the street
| interviewing them. His posts and videos have given me a
| whole different view of homelessness, most of which in more
| vein of what the first commenter here was talking about.
| But it has also taught me that homelessness can be quite
| diverse.
|
| If you're interested in the life of the homeless at all you
| should definitely read some of his blog. His collaborations
| with Tyler Oliveira on YouTube are also extremely
| interesting.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| Not just warrents, but restrictions post-release than limit
| where persons can live.
| preya2k wrote:
| I've been at HKUST in 2016, too. I must've been pretty close to
| that tent a couple of times. Very interesting read. I couldn't
| have done it due to the crazy big spiders
| tomtau_ wrote:
| Great write-up!
|
| 1. Did you consider camping in one of Hong Kong's official free
| campsites instead? I don't remember seeing any rules that would
| prevent long-term camping. So, besides the less convenient
| location and perhaps raised eyebrows of their staff (if they
| regularly saw you at the campsite registration desk), it seems
| like a safer option?
|
| 2. I assume you were a taught student, not a research student,
| right? (If you were a research student, you could have slept in
| your assigned office, I guess.)
| 5mv2 wrote:
| Thank you!
|
| 1. That would have been a great option had there been one close
| to the university! Proximity was a top criteria because commute
| is expensive money-wise and time-wise. Also, weirdly enough I
| think I was much safer in this illegal spot than in a regular
| camping where traffic makes robberies more likely.
|
| 2. I like how you think because I happen to have befriended a
| research student who did just that! I didn't envy him one bit
| thought because he had no windows while my tent view was
| magnificent. And then summer came and I would have given
| anything to have his AC!
| burnt-resistor wrote:
| This is camping, it's nothing like homelessness. At best, it's
| homelessness tourism.
| Arn_Thor wrote:
| Hong Kong is such an amazing place. I lived there overlapping
| with your stay. I miss the food and the weather, but most of all
| the people.
| Laaas wrote:
| How come you didn't just get a cheap car and sleep in that?
| 5mv2 wrote:
| Severals reasons: I don't think you could live 2 weeks in a car
| before getting controlled by the Police, at least in Hong Kong,
| tents are cheaper than cars, and I didn't have a driver's
| license!
| edg5000 wrote:
| Great writeup. I appreciate the bravery.
|
| To solve the housing issues, all we have to do is build basic
| soviet-era apartment buildings everywhere and all will be good.
| The fact that we don't do this in many countries with crippling
| real estate situations must be a symptom of much larger
| underlying systemic issues. The future will hold a great many
| things but also some unavoidable and painful refactoring of
| leadership.
| snarf21 wrote:
| Too many in our country are against this because it isn't
| "fair". Everyone must pull themselves up by their own
| bootstraps. Homeless is an easy problem to solve and generally
| not that expensive. It is a political issue no one is willing
| to risk.
| v9v wrote:
| The user manual linked in the homepage
| (https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1aZuBR-jVCda-VkG-8MzX...)
| seems like an interesting idea.
| Simon_O_Rourke wrote:
| Whether or not this guy is actually homeless is up for debate.
| What's not debatable is the pervading level of stingy "I spend
| hours and hours to save a few bucks" mentality that runs through
| this piece.
| snarf21 wrote:
| I agree. In the end, we trade our time for money and our money
| for (different) time.
|
| There also gets a point where some of these things become
| "penny wise and pound foolish". I'm reminded of the people who
| spend 20 minutes driving across town to save $0.20 a gallon on
| gas. Which even in an empty 15 gallon tank, is a savings of
| only $3.00. Net cost benefit analysis says they would be better
| off working an a fast food restaurant or something for a higher
| trade-off of money per hours.
| Simon_O_Rourke wrote:
| Yes exactly this... Queues of cheapos outside the lowest
| price gas station in town to save a pittance in dollar terms
| but not realize the lost opportunity cost striving to save a
| buck.
| Havoc wrote:
| >One close friend was looking for someone to rent his cave for
| about $100 per night.
|
| Someone has an actual cave to rent out?
| wileydragonfly wrote:
| Very cool, really enjoyed this one. I think the boredom would get
| to me quickly, though.
| retinaros wrote:
| is it a satire for tiktok? also a bit misleading that you
| representing someone that is not you in the single person picture
| of your blog. and mentioning that food is not cheap at "3$ a
| meal" while coming from one of the richest countries on earth...
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