[HN Gopher] The startling rise of disability in America (2013)
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       The startling rise of disability in America (2013)
        
       Author : pseudolus
       Score  : 67 points
       Date   : 2025-06-07 14:46 UTC (8 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (apps.npr.org)
 (TXT) w3m dump (apps.npr.org)
        
       | renewiltord wrote:
       | VA disability is one of these big scams. People have gotten
       | pretty good at transforming brands into money these days. So
       | socially respected groups like firefighters or military use the
       | chance to extract massive wealth from productive society.
        
         | vkou wrote:
         | Have you made any VA claims, or have you worked for the VA?
         | 
         | I know people who have done both, and profligacy is not
         | something either would accuse the organization of.
        
           | lokar wrote:
           | AIUI, pretty much everyone can get a partial disability
           | rating for tinnitus
        
             | jwiz wrote:
             | Sounds...legit tho? I sure wouldn't want tinnitus, so if
             | that can be softened, seems worth doing.
        
               | olalonde wrote:
               | I think the implication is that people who don't have
               | tinnitus can also claim it - there's no objective test to
               | verify whether it's true.
        
               | lokar wrote:
               | Also, what is the point of a partial disability payment?
               | 
               | Is it to compensate you for the lost income you couldn't
               | have earned if not for the disability? That would be in
               | line with the goal of normal disability.
        
           | the__alchemist wrote:
           | I know a lot of 100%-disabled vets who had desk jobs while
           | in, who are healthy, rock-climb etc. It's absolutely an
           | abused system. Basically, you claim various categories, and
           | get 10% disability for each category you claim.
           | 
           | edit: They usually have full-time jobs too.
        
           | vjvjvjvjghv wrote:
           | When I lived in DC I knew several vets who received
           | disability payments, worked well paid full time jobs at
           | defense contractors and otherwise lived normal active lives.
           | It definitely looked a little questionable
        
           | nullstyle wrote:
           | I recommend you search youtube for "va disability 100
           | percent" and witness the staggering number of channels
           | clearly teaching people to game the system, complete with
           | shush face thumbnails. There seems to be some profligacy from
           | that angle.
        
             | lazyasciiart wrote:
             | Next you're going to tell me that all those "get rich by
             | buying my book" YouTube channels mean people must be
             | getting rich by buying their books.
        
               | nullstyle wrote:
               | So are you saying all of the people who watch these
               | channels (in your analogy they "buy get rich quick
               | books") never try to get a disability status? or they try
               | and never make it?
               | 
               | Or do they go for an interview, get their tinnitus, ibs,
               | or chronic back pain diagnosis then try again for more
               | next time?
               | 
               | ----
               | 
               | Look, I'm not saying we shouldn't help/trust veterans; My
               | father is a severely disabled Vietnam war vet and gave up
               | his body for the air force over a long career. He
               | deserved to have his stairlift paid for by the taxpayer,
               | but he shouldn't have to fight with corrupt service
               | providers who can't do a proper job installing the thing.
               | He shouldn't have to deal with a contractor that won't
               | repair the botched installation for a year because it
               | would cut into their profit margin.
               | 
               | Similarly, he shouldn't have his services degraded
               | because other vets have found out how to take more than
               | their fair share. I'm open to think there is minimal
               | graft, but my experiences say there is some more going on
               | than I can be supportive of.
               | 
               | Maybe you could provide some data to show how I'm
               | mistaken.
        
               | wormius wrote:
               | You're the one making the claim and assumption and "gut
               | feeling" so it sounds like YOU are the one needing actual
               | data for your "gut feelings".
               | 
               | Sorry this is the same bullshit people do when they see a
               | person able to stand for a few hours and say "WHY ARE
               | THEY ON DISABILITY" and ignoring the rest of the time
               | they aren't seeing, or the people recovering. This is
               | just hearsay, and since you're the one making these
               | claims, then it behooves YOU to provide the proof.
               | 
               | But it's a nice little racket, make a claim and then
               | demand those who deny it provide the proof. That's now
               | how science or respectable arguments work.
               | 
               | This whole thread is full of such bullshit. And it's so
               | people can feel superior to those who they think are
               | scamming the system (in an ever increasing need to "crack
               | down" on those who "abuse" the system (slowly killing it
               | over time, or until you can get a DOGE in and ransack it
               | like a viking ship plundering coastal communities).
               | 
               | Anyways, citation needed, since you're the one making the
               | claims.
        
               | nullstyle wrote:
               | go look back at my original statement. the tools to
               | verify what I asserted are right there; go search youtube
               | and see for yourself.
               | 
               | I'm not trying to feel superior, i'm trying to broaden my
               | perspective by offering my own and engaging with people
               | who comment on it.
        
               | roarcher wrote:
               | I'm a veteran and I know several fellow vets who openly
               | admit to lying to the VA to get disability ratings for
               | maladies they don't have. No, I don't have statistics
               | about how many disabled veterans are lying (how would one
               | gather that information, exactly?), but it is a regular
               | occurrence that I meet guys who brag about their 100%
               | ratings, ask me about mine, and look at me like I'm some
               | kind of poor naive idiot when I tell them that I did not
               | claim disability because I do not feel that I'm disabled.
               | 
               | I do not claim that everyone on VA disability or SSDI is
               | a fraudster. I know veterans who are missing significant
               | portions of their body. I dated a women on SSDI who
               | absolutely needed and deserved it for a neurological
               | disorder. But she knew a family where _every single
               | member_ went on it as soon as they turned 18. Scamming
               | SSDI was essentially their family business.
               | 
               | I am not advocating for DOGE to take an axe to these
               | systems. But just because you or I might find DOGE
               | distasteful does not mean that significant fraud and
               | abuse does not take place. I can only assume that you
               | have not spent much time around these systems or people
               | who use them. Anyone who does immediately hears about
               | their misuse, often from the perpetrators themselves, who
               | are proud of their own cleverness for doing so.
        
           | missedthecue wrote:
           | There are entire online communities around gaming the system.
           | On how to report pre-service injuries as service related. On
           | how to deliberately build a huge medical file while you're in
           | to support your disability claim later. On where to go and
           | when, in order to get your highest possible rating. Things to
           | say and not to say. There is an entire industry of paid
           | consultants that help you get the biggest claim possible.
           | 
           | It's a big issue. Over 30% of vets today have disability
           | compared to 15% in 2008. 3% of federal revenue goes to paying
           | veteran disability alone and it's climbing. No politician can
           | talk about it because campaigning on taking money from
           | disabled veterans is the best way to nuke yourself in the
           | polls.
        
             | jhp123 wrote:
             | we should have talked about it back in 2001 before we sent
             | these young men to risk their lives and health in a
             | misbegotten crusade. The rise in costs for veterans care
             | was predictable:
             | https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2007/02/terror-war-
             | co...
        
               | missedthecue wrote:
               | There's plenty of things to say about the waste and
               | pointlessness of the GWOT.
               | 
               | But there were never enough deployments to justify these
               | levels of disability claims. And not every person
               | deployed goes into combat. And not every person that goes
               | into combat becomes disabled. A rise was predictable. 30%
               | simply implies a lot of a dishonesty.
        
         | 9x39 wrote:
         | I agree with you about the VA, although everything I know is
         | secondhand.
         | 
         | I make two generalizations from veterans I know: one type
         | accumulates injuries throughout service (neck, knees, hips,
         | shoulders, back, toxic exposure) but being the walk-it-off
         | types, never documented much because they were often deployed
         | and didn't bother with paperwork. Bitterly complains about the
         | VA and their limited or temporary disability ratings despite
         | grinding pain and difficulty in later life.
         | 
         | Second type is similar to the first type, but played the 'game'
         | optimally, documented, documented, and documented. While you
         | can absolutely get some of the same injuries, I was surprised
         | to find things like mild sleep apnea and male pattern baldness
         | helped get someone a permanent 100% disability rating. No doubt
         | life isn't easy, but to think this individual is 100% disabled
         | is a bit of a stretch when they also work full-time for .gov
         | doing project work.
         | 
         | My point is that like a video game, people are very good at
         | finding the optimal or 'meta' path to maximizing outcomes in a
         | set of rules, and outcomes from a system can be different than
         | what casual observers might think is the intended purpose of
         | the system.
        
           | trogdor wrote:
           | > male pattern baldness helped get someone a permanent 100%
           | disability rating
           | 
           | I find that very hard to believe. Do you have evidence that
           | this is true?
        
             | roarcher wrote:
             | As a veteran I haven't heard of that particular one, but
             | I've heard of disability ratings given out for trivial
             | enough things that I think it's plausible. I knew of one
             | guy who got it for PTSD after being stationed in Okinawa
             | doing an office job for 4 years. And I know another who has
             | a rating for migraines, which he freely admits to not
             | having and lying to the VA about.
             | 
             | I never applied for disability of any kind, but it would
             | seem that the VA examiners question nothing and hand out
             | ratings like candy. According to the migraine guy, it's one
             | of those situations where they have to find things to spend
             | their budget on or they lose it next year. I'm of the
             | opinion that if they can afford to spend their budget
             | supporting freeloaders and liars then perhaps it would be
             | better used by some other office, but I digress.
        
       | lokar wrote:
       | It's not obvious, but I'm pretty sure this is from 2013 (I
       | remember hearing it when it aired).
        
         | Uvix wrote:
         | Confirmed - if you follow the "Listen to this story" link, it's
         | from 22 March 2013.
        
         | pyrophane wrote:
         | Glad you posted this as I remember hearing about this situation
         | some years ago but couldn't remember where.
        
         | dang wrote:
         | Good catch!
         | https://web.archive.org/web/20130326035330/https://apps.npr....
         | 
         | We've added the year to the title above.
        
       | WalterBright wrote:
       | It's not startling at all. When people are paid to be disabled,
       | what else would one expect?
        
         | skulk wrote:
         | I agree. Allow me to present a modest proposal...
        
       | paleotrope wrote:
       | Bread and circuses
        
       | datavirtue wrote:
       | Chronic back issues...omg. You can literally exersize your way
       | out of them. It's the only treatment and it is VERY effective.
       | Living proof.
       | 
       | People run into back issues (very common and will probably happen
       | to everyone) and doctors send them home with print outs showing
       | them them how to repair their back. They throw the paper away and
       | go back when "they need surgery." That makes it worse.
        
         | WalterBright wrote:
         | I have chronic back pain, recently diagnosed as osteoarthritis.
         | I can attest that doing all the exercises the doctor's printout
         | shows keeps the pain at bay.
        
           | analog31 wrote:
           | This is as good a place to mention it as anywhere: My
           | physical therapist told me that people who work at a computer
           | all day have a high risk of osteoarthritis.
        
           | datavirtue wrote:
           | Get the Back Mechanic book. Author is a genius.
        
         | cachecrab wrote:
         | Some people need pain reprocessing therapy. Have you read the
         | book The Way Out by Alan Gordon?
         | 
         | https://www.painreprocessingtherapy.com/
         | https://www.amazon.com/Way-Out-Revolutionary-Scientifically-...
        
         | Taeper wrote:
         | This works for a lot of back issues but not all of em! For
         | example syringomyelia, depending on where it forms, can be
         | exacerbated by working out. So ideally make sure you have a
         | good idea of why your back hurts before you start, but it can
         | be hard to diagnose.
         | 
         | https://asap.org/disorders/articles/exercise-concepts/
        
           | datavirtue wrote:
           | Yeah, there are definitely edge cases but most back pain is
           | self inflicted. The common knowledge around back issues is
           | REALLY bad and doctors, oddly enough, do not help and are
           | often ignorant themselves.
        
       | olalonde wrote:
       | > Fewer than 1 percent of those who were on the federal program
       | for disabled workers at the beginning of 2011 have returned to
       | the workforce since then, one economist told me.
       | 
       | Do they lose their "disabled" status if they go back to work? If
       | so, that seems like a textbook poverty trap. Why risk losing
       | lifetime free money for a minimum wage job that might not last?
        
         | lazyasciiart wrote:
         | Yes
        
         | genewitch wrote:
         | I have a friend 'trapped' by government aid. They receive some
         | benefits from being diagnosed with something as a minor and
         | their father received a government aid that conferred to them.
         | Its SSDI IIRC; the rules say they can't get married, can't own
         | property, can't earn more than $X/unit of time.
         | 
         | The 27 years I've known them have been punctuated by my saying
         | "what if you do this to solve your current issue" and the reply
         | is "I'll lose my benefits"
         | 
         | I'm unfit to say if they need it; as in I am unsure if their
         | life would be worse or better without.
         | 
         | Don't read too much into the setup, above; my memory is fuzzy
         | unless I am directly talking to them about it, and even so they
         | correct me like, "its not ssi it's ssdi," or whatever it is.
         | This is to +1 with an anecdote.
        
           | roarcher wrote:
           | I dated a disabled woman for a bit, and this is exactly how
           | it was. Every possible solution to her situation had better
           | be 100% guaranteed to work, because it was guaranteed to get
           | her ejected from SSDI, never able to reapply unless she
           | developed a new and unrelated disability.
           | 
           | She wasn't even allowed to save money for an emergency fund
           | or a large purchase because there was a limit to how much
           | liquid cash she could have at any time, and it was something
           | like $2000. If she demonstrated an ability to save more than
           | that, the bureaucrats would take that as irrefutable evidence
           | that she was well enough off to not need help, and boot her
           | from the program.
           | 
           | Every single thing about the way that program is administered
           | actively prevents its users from bettering their situation.
        
             | genewitch wrote:
             | a refrain i hear a lot from my friend, who does actually
             | have issues, i wasn't trying to imply they didn't^, is,
             | "What if i [go to school], get a job, and then something
             | happens where i can't work, but they've already kicked me
             | off? I'd be in a way worse position"
             | 
             | They could go to school and make enough money to take care
             | of themselves, obviously, but the threat of losing the
             | safety net is enough that they still never went to school,
             | and have only worked for retail a few times over the years
             | for maybe 6-12 hours a week, obviously at minimum wage.
             | 
             | ^ just in case it seems that way.
        
           | Civitello wrote:
           | >can't get married<br> This is the next frontier in marriage
           | equality.
        
       | mensetmanusman wrote:
       | Sugar and inactivity are a hell of a drug.
        
         | nurettin wrote:
         | So is inbreeding.
        
       | AndrewKemendo wrote:
       | I am a 100% P&T disabled veteran - I have handicapped parking and
       | all of that.
       | 
       | I could sit here and list out all the medical and legally
       | accepted reasons that the Veterans Administration, and as a
       | result all other regulatory bodies, give me this status
       | (epilepsy, constantly dislocating shoulders, hip arthritis,
       | tinnitus, PTSD etc...)
       | 
       | However I have friends, colleagues and neighbors who are
       | measurably less physically and mentally capable but are not
       | considered disabled.
       | 
       | When I look at the job market, MOST people are not capable of
       | doing their individual life without significant training, help,
       | direction or supervision. People call this bad-state "adulting"
       | and find it onerous.
       | 
       | Said another way, the vast majority of people do not have the
       | cognitive ability, education (self taught or formal), or
       | experience to set goals, take actions and self improve without
       | significant direction from someone else. I personally consider
       | that disabled.
       | 
       | So if these people are considering themselves disabled, then they
       | are probably right - they are incapable of being independent or
       | living within a community that takes care of them. So the only
       | remaining community left is the abstracted transactional monetary
       | system implemented by governments to allocate resources toward
       | them provided they check the right boxes.
       | 
       | Ideally 100% of humanity would be on disability - because we can
       | build systems measurably more capable than human labor - someone
       | just needs to rebrand it as "UBI."
        
         | DiggyJohnson wrote:
         | Interesting perspective. A lot of the nuance and disagreement
         | comes from what we mean when we say "incapable".
        
           | dingnuts wrote:
           | No, the view that "everyone should be on disability" is just
           | socialism..
        
         | constantcrying wrote:
         | I would absolutely hate to have to think myself "disabled" and
         | I would hate the idea of the state seeing itself as my
         | "caretaker".
         | 
         | What you are describing is also the opposite from what liberal
         | democracy was envisioned as. It was supposed to be a state,
         | which created complete and mature citizens, which make well
         | formed decision and can be trusted with governing the country.
         | 
         | To be honest I do not think that you are wrong in your
         | description, the state is certainly transforming into an
         | institution where the citizen are envisioned as disabled
         | wrecks, which are in desperate need of government support. I
         | just hate that this is the case, it is fundamentally
         | incompatible with the ideals of a liberal democracy.
        
           | 01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote:
           | The fundamentally incompatible part is that the citizens are
           | not complete and mature?
        
             | constantcrying wrote:
             | If citizens are broken people who need the support of the
             | state they obviously can not make informed decisions and
             | should not be allowed participate in politics.
             | 
             | The goal of liberal democracies is that the citizens are
             | capable and mature and thus can be trusted with governing.
        
           | lazyasciiart wrote:
           | It was supposed to only count landowning males over 25, which
           | was expected to consist of mature able citizens with assets.
        
             | dingnuts wrote:
             | so the problem is actually allowing renters to vote? that's
             | a wild take I didn't expect to see on the orange site today
             | but points for honesty and boldness I guess
        
             | constantcrying wrote:
             | I don't know what you are trying to say. Obviously what you
             | are complaining about has changed and now all adults should
             | be capable citizens.
             | 
             | Is it wrong that the state wants to create capable and
             | mature citizens who can be trusted with participation in
             | government?
        
           | akomtu wrote:
           | Countries are created by adults and destroyed by children,
           | and that's the normal stage of progress. The metaphorical
           | adults, or the great souls, are experienced, self-directed
           | and inspired by a vision of the great future. They know where
           | they want to get and how to get there. The metaphorical
           | children, or the young souls, live in the dark, clueless
           | about what they are here for, so they chase minute
           | distractions and learn by mistakes. However those mistakes is
           | the only way to grow up.
        
         | itishappy wrote:
         | I just applied to a job and part of it was a disability
         | disclaimer. Here's the list:
         | 
         | * Alcohol or other substance use disorder (not currently using
         | drugs illegally)
         | 
         | * Autoimmune disorder, for example, lupus, fibromyalgia,
         | rheumatoid arthritis, HIV/AIDS
         | 
         | * Blind or low vision
         | 
         | * Cancer (past or present)
         | 
         | * Cardiovascular or heart disease
         | 
         | * Celiac disease
         | 
         | * Cerebral palsy
         | 
         | * Deaf or serious difficulty hearing
         | 
         | * Diabetes
         | 
         | * Disfigurement, for example, disfigurement caused by burns,
         | wounds, accidents, or congenital disorders
         | 
         | * Epilepsy or other seizure disorder
         | 
         | * Gastrointestinal disorders, for example, Crohn's Disease,
         | irritable bowel syndrome
         | 
         | * Intellectual or developmental disability
         | 
         | * Mental health conditions, for example, depression, bipolar
         | disorder, anxiety disorder, schizophrenia, PTSD
         | 
         | * Missing limbs or partially missing limbs
         | 
         | * Mobility impairment, benefiting from the use of a wheelchair,
         | scooter, walker, leg brace(s) and/or other supports
         | 
         | * Nervous system condition, for example, migraine headaches,
         | Parkinson's disease, multiple sclerosis (MS)
         | 
         | * Neurodivergence, for example, attention-deficit/hyperactivity
         | disorder (ADHD), autism spectrum disorder, dyslexia, dyspraxia,
         | other learning disabilities
         | 
         | * Partial or complete paralysis (any cause)
         | 
         | * Pulmonary or respiratory conditions, for example,
         | tuberculosis, asthma, emphysema
         | 
         | * Short stature (dwarfism)
         | 
         | * Traumatic brain injury
         | 
         | The form asks if you currently have or have ever had one of
         | these in the past. Well, I don't know if anyone I've met
         | hasn't. I said "no." I have no idea what the right approach
         | here is.
        
           | howard941 wrote:
           | If you want the job the right answer's going to be no.
           | Unfortunately only a small fraction of those maladies gets
           | you on disability, almost none of them before age 50.
        
             | leereeves wrote:
             | Or say yes, then sue when they don't hire you.
        
               | Buttons840 wrote:
               | Yeah... Asking that can't be legal, right?
        
           | hungryhobbit wrote:
           | How can you say anything except no? Who, when applying for a
           | job, wants to make themself look like a less attractive
           | candidate?
        
             | polarbare wrote:
             | The hiring manager probably doesn't see it, but recruiters
             | and HR do, and they have a mandate to make sure that the
             | company is hiring at least X% of people with disabilities.
             | 
             | In a world where 99% of resumes are never going to get seen
             | by the hiring manager, checking the disability box might be
             | the only way to have your application get past the initial
             | recruiter/HR or recruiting-software screen.
        
           | s1mplicissimus wrote:
           | I'd definitely not tick "low vision" and then straighten my
           | glasses in a disapproving manner
        
       | cebert wrote:
       | It's unfortunate that we can't seriously consider universal basic
       | income in the United States. If we provided every adult citizen
       | with $13K annually during their working years, it could offer
       | support to those unable to find meaningful employment without
       | forcing them to declare themselves disabled just to survive. That
       | label can take a real toll on a person's psyche and limit their
       | belief in their ability to grow or find better opportunities. We
       | also have to be realistic and realize AI is positioned to replace
       | a significant number of jobs in the next decade. A safety net
       | like UBI will only become more essential moving forward.
        
         | vjvjvjvjghv wrote:
         | That would require a total rethinking of our economic system. I
         | doubt this will happen without any catalyst like war or
         | revolution.
        
           | olalonde wrote:
           | Not necessarily. The US government already spends >2000$ per
           | adult per month. It would require a total rethinking of the
           | role of government.
        
             | paxys wrote:
             | Spends on what? It's not like you can disband the military,
             | not build roads and bridges and eliminate medicaid just
             | because you send out a $1000/mo UBI payment.
             | 
             | If you want to consider just social assistance then the US
             | government spends about $950B annually, and that works out
             | to $2800 per year per citizen. To make it a livable amount
             | you'd have to _at minimum_ 5x that expenditure (and a lot
             | more than that in urban areas).
        
               | olalonde wrote:
               | The comment I was replying to proposed a UBI of
               | $13,000/year or roughly what many people on disability
               | currently live on. That would cost around $3.4 trillion
               | annually, leaving over $3 trillion for everything else,
               | including roads and the military. Of course, you'd still
               | need to make cuts somewhere - likely from existing
               | entitlement programs.
        
               | paxys wrote:
               | I just posted the number that entitlement programs
               | currently use, and it is under $1T. So you're basically
               | saying "it's easy to implement UBI, we just need an extra
               | 2.4T/yr lying around somewhere" (which is equivalent to
               | 1/3 our total budget). Scale it up to realistic numbers
               | (no one is surviving on just $13K/yr, plenty of people
               | need more than just average support e.g. for medical
               | conditions) and you're easily talking $5T+.
        
               | olalonde wrote:
               | It wouldn't be very comfortable, but yes - it's possible
               | to live on that amount. Many people on disability do so
               | today. If it's not enough and you're unable to work,
               | you'd have to rely on savings, family, or charity. And
               | yes, the idea would for UBI to account for over 50% of
               | current government spending and to get rid of most
               | existing government programs (except core functions like
               | military and law enforcement). That's why I ended my
               | original comment with "it would require a total
               | rethinking of the role of government."
               | 
               | By the way, I think you're overlooking the strongest
               | criticism of my UBI proposal: that it would reduce the
               | incentive to work, potentially lowering labor
               | participation and, in turn, government tax revenue, which
               | could make the system unsustainable. It's hard to predict
               | whether that would be a real problem or not.
        
               | zahlman wrote:
               | > no one is surviving on just $13K/yr
               | 
               | There are many countries around the world where that
               | would be normal, or even a sign of affluence.
        
               | paxys wrote:
               | We aren't talking about many countries around the world,
               | just one
        
               | bryanlarsen wrote:
               | Or we'd have to raise taxes by 2.4T dollars. Which isn't
               | as extreme as it sounds, since we're at the same time
               | giving everybody money. If 2/3 of the amount of UBI is
               | paid for with increased taxes, the average taxpayer will
               | come out ahead. "We're raising your taxes by $10,000"
               | doesn't sound as bad as when accompanied by "and here's a
               | cheque for $13,000". Bill Gates' taxes will go up a lot
               | more than $13,000, but the average taxpayer will see a
               | very small benefit.
               | 
               | The other benefit of raising taxes is that it will
               | control inflation.
               | 
               | And $13K/year isn't enough to live on, yet many disabled
               | people do just that. 4 people each getting $13K can
               | probably live together on that. Living alone is a luxury.
               | 
               | And with UBI, there are no limitations on you
               | supplementing your income on the side. One of the biggest
               | criticisms of UBI is that everybody will stop working. If
               | UBI is $13K/year pretty much only those who are unable to
               | work will not supplement their income with work.
        
               | sokoloff wrote:
               | > and a lot more than that in urban areas
               | 
               | Or, if the UBI is insufficient, you could work or move
               | someplace less expensive.
               | 
               | Most anything else would feel unfair (as a result of
               | being so) and tend to drive a cycle of inflation in the
               | expensive urban areas rather than working against it.
        
           | okanat wrote:
           | I agree. Some libertarian economists noticed that endless
           | growth demands slavery-like conditions and the economic
           | collapse one way or another. They are trying to back away
           | without using the s-word and invent half-baked solutions like
           | UBI.
           | 
           | UBI by itself will not solve the problems. It will only drive
           | exorbitant inflation. Implementing UBI requires socializing
           | many institutions and nationalizing big companies. People who
           | control the biggest portions of the economy will not give
           | their power up without a war.
        
             | olalonde wrote:
             | > Some libertarian economists noticed that endless growth
             | demands slavery-like conditions and the economic collapse
             | one way or another.
             | 
             | Which economists? That doesn't sound libertarian at all.
             | Libertarians who support UBI typically do so because they
             | see it as a pragmatic alternative to inefficient welfare
             | systems. They certainly wouldn't support abandoning market
             | based economics.
        
           | trod1234 wrote:
           | Not just a total rethinking, but rather a total redevelopment
           | to find an economic system that is just as stable as
           | capitalism in a free market (without fiat).
           | 
           | Socialism fails 100% of the time given sufficient time, UBI
           | is tied to socialism.
           | 
           | If your food production yield is dependent on maintaining
           | your supply chain which fails under socialism, you basically
           | run into a hysteresis trap under socialism where this fails,
           | and everyone starves to death.
           | 
           | Its like the ending of Daybreakers.
           | 
           | Just an FYI, Money-printing/non-reserve debt issuance is a
           | catalyst for war/ revolution.
        
         | mouse_ wrote:
         | More safety equates to less people willing to work slave jobs
         | for slave wages. They're just gonna make disability bucks
         | harder to access.
        
         | whatever1 wrote:
         | Even with 100k / month basic income, the landlords would simply
         | raise their rents to 200k / month. Because why would they give
         | up their generational wealth?
        
           | qgin wrote:
           | In this model, does the current existence of people in
           | poverty basically serve as a ballast that gives everyone
           | else's "above poverty" money a higher, stable value?
           | 
           | Would it ever be possible to not have poverty without making
           | everyone's money worthless?
        
         | userbinator wrote:
         | _those unable to find meaningful employment_
         | 
         | I don't want to pay to feed freeloaders.
        
       | vjvjvjvjghv wrote:
       | I thought disability is often the only way for people to get
       | support when there is no other option for welfare.
        
         | therealdrag0 wrote:
         | I remember some article mentioned that the rise in disability
         | correlated with the fall of welfare availability. (I didn't
         | read article so donno if covered)
        
       | desireco42 wrote:
       | A lot of people are people on Obesity... Which is what Kennedy is
       | trying to fix and address. It is better to enable people to help
       | themselves.
       | 
       | Big corporations have interest to have us weak and confused, from
       | being perpetually single to other ways to make us dependendent on
       | "services"
        
         | 01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote:
         | You think that an administration with good intentions of
         | helping people would start off by kicking people off of the
         | existing aid systems and tearing down institutions? Even
         | institutions like the National weather service?
        
       | Hilift wrote:
       | This grossly understates the current 2025 financial impact of the
       | problem, and is directly linked to the ~$36 trillion debt.
       | 
       | There is a target to reduce Medicaid recipients by 4.8 million by
       | 2033, by requiring them to attend school or volunteer 80 hours
       | per month. That's a lot.
       | 
       | https://www.nola.com/news/politics/impact-on-louisiana-of-me...
       | 
       | In the next four years, nearly every state that has huge Medicaid
       | obligations will be forced to restrict and reduce access simply
       | due to budget constraints.
       | 
       | For example, California has 6.6 million enrolled in Medicaid and
       | requires a staggering $85 billion federal assistance annual
       | infusion for Medicaid. "People with disabilities composed 8% of
       | Medi-Cal enrollees and accounted for 31% of spending".
       | 
       | California has 49% of the population on employer-provided health
       | insurance. Only 5% purchase private insurance (Affordable Care
       | Act). However, 22% of Californians are covered by Medicaid. That
       | number is unsustainable, and Governor Newsom is already enacting
       | measures to reduce enrollment and eligibility.
       | 
       | https://calmatters.org/health/2025/05/medicaid-work-requirem...
       | 
       | https://www.chcf.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/MediCalFacts...
       | 
       | https://calmatters.org/health/2025/05/medi-cal-assets-newsom...
        
         | gusgus01 wrote:
         | California is not a great example, since they pay out to the
         | Fed so much more than they receive, so that infusion isn't
         | really an infusion when you consider the overall budgets.
        
           | hollerith wrote:
           | Nit: "the Fed" means the Federal Reserve Bank, which does not
           | collect taxes. "The US treasury", "the Federal government" or
           | "Fedgov" would work in your sentence.
        
       | amanaplanacanal wrote:
       | (2013)
        
         | mike-the-mikado wrote:
         | I find it really surprising that a current affairs report of
         | this sort is not clearly dated. I wonder if NPR do better with
         | more recent articles?
        
       | dhosek wrote:
       | Last Week Tonight did a great piece on the negatives of how SSDI
       | disability works in practice:
       | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hq2s7RMRsgs
        
       | dehrmann wrote:
       | It's probably obesity, lack of opportunity, and cultural
       | normalization.
        
         | 01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote:
         | Can those be fixed?
        
       | cavisne wrote:
       | Nothing compared to the NDIS rort in Australia. There is literal
       | gang warfare over providing "services" to people with high
       | payouts.
        
       | Animats wrote:
       | _" Somewhere around 30 years ago, the economy started changing in
       | some fundamental ways. There are now millions of Americans who do
       | not have the skills or education to make it in this country."_
       | Not wrong, and sad.
       | 
       | This article shows what Universal Basic Income looks like on the
       | ground.
        
       | sgnelson wrote:
       | One thing I've noticed over the past 20 years. At least in the
       | United States, we need less "ditch diggers." This means that
       | those who are less intellectually capable find it harder to get
       | employment in a suitable position. I think this is an issue that
       | needs to be addressed. But you know, I live here and now, so that
       | ain't happening.
        
         | Yeul wrote:
         | Companies would rather hire an illegal immigrant than deal with
         | someone who is not 100% mentally or physically fit.
        
       | wyldfire wrote:
       | Eric Conn [1] is a fraudster who abused this with a scheme to
       | bribe judges, doctors.
       | 
       | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_C._Conn
        
       | pragmatic wrote:
       | This needs a 2013 flag.
        
       | nlh wrote:
       | I'll never forget the run-in I had with this corner of the labor
       | market:
       | 
       | Back about 15 years ago I was running a small business in the
       | auto industry. A guy who did deliveries for us (entire job:
       | driving cars to people) who was in his early 20s found himself in
       | a very minor fender-bender -- he rear-ended someone else. He
       | claimed his twisted his ankle from the jolt (based on where he
       | was resting his foot). Fine, no big deal.
       | 
       | He went to see a doctor shortly afterwards and immediately filed
       | for a Worker's Comp claim. He then kept seeing that doctor and
       | within a few weeks was given... _permanent disability_. Literally
       | got a doctor to say he 'd never be able to work again. Full sign-
       | off. He of course was seen walking around just fine a few months
       | later.
       | 
       | Absolute insanity.
        
       | rowls66 wrote:
       | This article is nearly 15 years old (2013). According to center
       | on budget and policy priorities, the number of SSDI beneficiaries
       | has fallen from is peak in 2014. So this article was written
       | about a trend that peaked a year after its publication and had
       | reversed over the past 15 years. Odd that it would be reposted
       | today.
       | 
       | https://www.cbpp.org/research/social-security/social-securit...
        
         | trod1234 wrote:
         | I think someone may have wanted to bring more attention to this
         | because contrary to surface level opinion and the peak on the
         | surface; there is actually a growing number of people who meet
         | the requirements to be eligible for disability but who do not
         | receive those benefits.
         | 
         | There's a longstanding fear, and one that seems well founded,
         | where those that meet the requirements won't actually file for
         | it because doing so will have an adverse effect on any
         | potential future employment.
         | 
         | Disability discrimination during hiring is almost impossible to
         | prove with AI these days.
         | 
         | I've heard horror stories from some people at the shelter where
         | I volunteer. One guy apparently had a county representative
         | check the wrong boxes on benefit documents by mistake during
         | welfare processing, saying a person was disabled because of a
         | health condition (sleep apnea iirc) when they weren't disabled
         | or receiving disability, and those people couldn't even find
         | retail work afterwards.
         | 
         | AI has opened the floodgates to all sorts of discrimination as
         | a result of the weights and decision-making being a black box
         | with no accountability.
        
       | AngryData wrote:
       | The problem with disability in the US is it is very easy to get
       | kicked off of it, so nobody risks earning or saving too much
       | money (I think you must maintain under $2000 at all times?) or
       | pursuing a potentially viable career unless it is a 100%
       | guarantee, because you can't go back on disability later for
       | something you had when you were kicked off it, even if it is a
       | progressive disease. You need to show new symptoms that by
       | themselves are disabling or another qualifying ailment.
       | 
       | And also getting on disability in the first place is such a huge
       | pile of bureaucratic nonsense and bullshit to start with that you
       | have to learn how to "game" the system just to get approval. It
       | isn't setup to try and help people who need it, it is setup to
       | disincentivize everybody as much as possible, even if you have
       | serious brain damage, are nearly blind, and only have 3 fingers.
        
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