[HN Gopher] 4-7-8 Breathing
___________________________________________________________________
4-7-8 Breathing
Author : cheekyturtles
Score : 164 points
Date : 2025-06-06 15:36 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.breathbelly.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.breathbelly.com)
| TYMorningCoffee wrote:
| Click the ying yang looking icon to get an explanation
|
| > 4-7-8 Breathing The 4-7-8 technique involves inhaling for 4
| counts, holding for 7, and exhaling for 8. This pattern is
| repeated several times. Developed by Dr. Andrew Weil, it helps
| reduce anxiety, manage stress, and promote better sleep by
| triggering your body's natural relaxation response and slowing
| your heart rate.
| sxp wrote:
| For those who have a scientific interest in breathwork, I suggest
| James Nestor's _Breath_. It goes into the biological aspects with
| a minimum amount of woo. And for those who want a crash course, I
| recommend getting a getting a pulse oximeter or other real time
| heart rate tracker and experimenting with various breathing
| patterns (Google [box breathing], [resonance breathing], etc) to
| watch your heart rate change. It was one of the first biofeedback
| experiments I did and still an impressive demo of the power of
| breathwork to this day.
| yusina wrote:
| Or just ... breathe normally? Your body can handle this pretty
| well on its own.
|
| What's the point of this hyper-optimization? (Unless it cures a
| condition obviously.)
| sxp wrote:
| It's useful to manipulate your internal states. E.g,
| intentionally slow down your heart rate when in bed and
| trying to fall asleep. Or intentionally raise it when you
| want to feel more alert without using caffeine or doing
| jumping jacks in the middle of the office.
| reverendsteveii wrote:
| >unless it cures a condition
|
| cures isn't the right word, but it lets you set conditions in
| your body once you've practiced for a bit. slow, deep
| breathing can help you remain calm and focused. inversely,
| quick, shallow breaths lead to a bit of hyperoxia and can
| help bring your emotions to a more intense state as well as
| basically "banking" oxygen for short bursts of physical
| activity. It's about being in control of your body and mind,
| and gaining that control through experimentation and
| observation. There are already a couple examples of the
| science behind breathwork in this thread but I feel compelled
| to point out that breath work is the foundation of meditation
| and practiced meditators have shown truly incredible control
| over their bodies and emotions.
|
| The primary source of benefits from breathwork is believed to
| be controlling the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal hormonal
| axis in the body. These three glands are basically in charge
| of the body's stress hormones, and those stress hormones are
| how the body broadcasts to all of its constituent parts what
| state the body is in and leaves each part to respond
| appropriately. So in someone with a hyperactive HPA axis
| you're going to see the immune system overrespond because the
| body is getting ready to deal with wounds that could become
| infected, you're going to see the cardiovascular system
| overrespond to prepare for phsyical exertion, you're going to
| see the digestive system underrespond because now's not the
| time to break down that sandwich there's a goddamned bear
| chasing me, all sorts of ways your body optimizes for
| emergency mode when the HPA axis is active.
|
| Thing is, what triggers emergency mode has changed a lot as
| we've developed as a species. Used to be the aforementioned
| bear. A bear is an emergency, but it's a 5 minute emergency.
| After 5 minutes it's over and either you survived it or you
| didn't. Now our lives are so complex and weird that people
| have emergencies that last decades. Trying to pay the rent
| with a minimum wage job is arguably an emergency that lasts
| your entire adult life and the HPA axis is responding to very
| real fears of having no food, nowhere to live, no social
| status and other things that matter to us on a biological
| level. If the HPA pathway remains too active for too long all
| of those downstream systems I mention earlier start
| malfunctioning because they've been running permanently in a
| mode that was only ever intended to be temporary. The ability
| to consciously take control of that by regulating your breath
| and focus doesn't just make you feel calmer, it allows those
| systems that have been redlining for a long time to take
| their foot off of the gas. It can lower your blood pressure
| and heart rate, which lowers the risk of heart attack and
| stroke. Its linked to abatement of symptoms in things as
| disparate as lupus, irritable bowel syndrome, adhd, dementia
| and fibromyalgia. Not to mention that people report being
| happier, less stressed and more engaged with their lives and
| loved ones with 20 minutes/day of just sitting quietly and
| paying attention to how their breathing works without
| actually trying to alter it at all.
|
| tldr - it's linked to relief in several conditions
|
| most of my info (prolly all of it tbh) comes from Dr K's
| lectures at healthygamer.gg - full disclosure, i don't work
| for them, i don't get paid by them, they don't know i exist
| but i am a member who has worked through a couple of their
| courses. They also have a youtube channel if you want an
| opportunity to check out some of the info for free.
| laserbeam wrote:
| The correct way to recommend to the scientifically inclined to
| learn about breathwork "without the woo woo" is to point to a
| meta analysis. The first one I found suggests that yeah,
| breathwork can lead to lower stress but that most studies feel
| biased and can overhype most other benefits.
|
| https://www.researchgate.net/publication/366645304_Effect_of...
|
| To me, breathwork falls under that category of positive
| exercises that can give a boost in life. I would never overhype
| "the power of breathwork" to anyone. Just like going to the
| gym, yoga, dancing, and most other similar activities.
| joleyj wrote:
| There should probably be an audible cue to go from exhaling to
| inhaling no?
| shermantanktop wrote:
| Agree! I could do this with my eyes closed if not for that. A
| simple "bip" noise or something.
| cheekyturtles wrote:
| There is an option under cue sounds, if you're using a phone
| I think you might need to take it off silent :) Let me know
| if that works.
| bix6 wrote:
| https://www.breathbelly.com/
|
| This link is better imo because it also shows the standard box
| alongside the 4-7-8
| dmos62 wrote:
| I use Breathly. It's great visually and audibly. And, you can use
| a custom timing. It also has a few other presets, including box
| breathing. And, it keeps the screen on, though I wish it would
| work when my android is locked (in my pocket).
|
| https://github.com/mmazzarolo/breathly-app
| cjauvin wrote:
| Great app, just tried it, works very nicely and has just the
| right set of things it should have, thanks!
| dartharva wrote:
| There's also Medito (closed-source but nonprofit), which has
| all sorts of guided meditations.
| JohnKemeny wrote:
| I have used 3-7 breathing to prepare for diving. Inhale 3
| seconds, exhale 7 seconds, for at least a full minute, followed
| by hyperventilating 5 times.
|
| Lets me hold my breath for 4-5 minutes if I don't move too much.
| semi-extrinsic wrote:
| You are probably well aware, but always worth highlighting the
| risk of shallow water blackout and death if you do this wrong
| and unsupervised. Always have a dive buddy.
|
| Someone I went to school with almost died from this. Was in a
| coma for 48h and spent a month in hospital afterwards. And that
| was in a public swimming pool where he was discovered quite
| quickly.
| cyberax wrote:
| Be VERY careful about hyperventilating!
|
| It effectively removes the normally leftover carbon dioxide
| from blood, but it does not oxygenate blood significantly more
| than normal.
|
| The end result: if you hold your breath after hyperventilation
| and start doing physical activities, you can get dangerously
| deoxygenated blood. Without the usual feeling of asphyxiation
| that is normally triggered by high CO2 content.
|
| Deoxygenated blood + brain = fainting. Which can be lethal when
| swimming.
| ayhanfuat wrote:
| For me box breathing worked better (inhale 4 seconds, hold 4
| seconds, exhale 4 seconds and hold 4 seconds). I use a little app
| called One Deep Breath. It had great effect on my blood pressure
| and anxiety.
| kdamica wrote:
| There are lots of different ways to do this. The important thing
| for anyone wanting to get started is just to get started and not
| get hung up on which one you're doing. Box breathing, Wim Hof
| method, etc, are all great and any breathwork is better than
| none.
|
| For an intro to the topic, James Nestor's Breath is excellent.
| ulnarkressty wrote:
| Every time I try breathwork (be it box or x-y-z) I feel that
| the intervals are too long - by the time I finish breathing out
| my brain goes into panic mode and the next breath is not enough
| to compensate. I find them the exact opposite of relaxing.
| kdamica wrote:
| I also do not find breathwork relaxing, and it's not always
| meant to be. The Wim Hof method in particular will definitely
| amp you up and cause some strange feelings. But if you are
| really having a bad time with it and want to continue, just
| find some interval that works for you. There is no one right
| answer for how to do this.
|
| On a personal note, I realized through breathwork that I was
| taking deep breaths incorrectly for most of my life. Maybe
| it's my anatomy, but when I take a deep, fast breath, my
| nostrils constrict and limit the airflow. It was a real
| breakthrough for me when I learned to focus on my diaphram
| while flaring my nostrils. The breaths I can take are so much
| more satisfying.
| ajb wrote:
| Wim hof may not be meant to be relaxing, but box (square)
| breathing is definitely supposed to be. It's recommended in
| many places for anxiety by reputable organisations.
|
| Of course, different people are different. If it actually
| makes anxiety worse then don't do it, or seek advice. It's
| difficult to know why the GP has this reaction.
| cluckindan wrote:
| They also teach box breathing in the US Army.
| lkuty wrote:
| I like to start breathing using my own rythm and then after a
| while the intervals widen naturally and I could then
| synchronize my breathing with one of the well known patterns
| but usuallly I don't. If I try to start with e.g. 4-7-8 I
| have the same problem of going into panic mode and then I am
| not relaxed at all and heart pulses go up instead of going
| down.
| clocker wrote:
| for me the out of sync happens during the transition
| between cycles. I think the problem is the visualization in
| this 4-7-8 app. you don't know when the exhale is going to
| end, you are almost at the end of exhale and inhale starts
| immediately. .There should be a small gap of 1 between the
| cycles 4-7-8-1-4-7-8-1 ... or the animation should indicate
| when the exhale is going to end.
| agumonkey wrote:
| I tried imposing structure but whenever I feel you like you
| say you do, I just revert to the mean. The rule is to not
| stress your system / mind above a certain threshold.
| codethief wrote:
| Your urge to breathe comes from your brain's sensitivity to
| CO2, which can be trained. In fact, as is also discussed in
| the book the grandparent mentioned, high sensitivity to CO2
| might cause everything from having short breath to full-blown
| panic attacks.
|
| In other words: Lowering your CO2 sensitivity and learning to
| breathe slowly by doing breathwork is a skill worth
| acquiring. Your brain going into panic mode in a
| comparatively relaxed breathing mode _could_ be an indication
| that your CO2 sensitivity is rather high.
| nmeofthestate wrote:
| Yes I always end up yawning/having to breathe through the
| mouth occasionally when trying to do this kind of thing.
| Perhaps I just don't get enough air through the nose.
| arendtio wrote:
| You should probably start by calming down first, such as
| lying on your back. Breathe as slowly as you want to for 2
| minutes, and then start counting to see how slow your breath
| is.
| jcul wrote:
| Just shorten the intervals. It's not a big deal. When I did
| yoga training in the pramayama (breath work) they started
| with quite short intervals, and the retention without air in
| the lungs was skipped at first.
|
| It's completely fine imo and I don't think there's a need to
| get hung up on details like hitting a prescribed 4-4-4-4.
| 3-3-0-3 would be ok too.
| hn_throw2025 wrote:
| You can begin with an easier pattern...
|
| Breathing through the nose, in for a count of three and out
| for five, then repeat.
|
| As long as the outbreath is longer than the inbreath, you
| will get some effect.
|
| Could also try relaxing first by massaging the Vagus nerve.
| An easy way to start with that is to massage in a circular
| motion the skin area in front of the Tragus (front skin flap)
| on each ear.
|
| You can combine that with the measured breathing for added
| effect. They both stimulate the Parasympathetic nervous
| system.
| avtar wrote:
| Pages 9 - 14 of the following pdf go into more detail about
| this aspect of softening breathing mechanics:
|
| https://img1.wsimg.com/blobby/go/b68ec804-ba42-4194-b405-d1f.
| ..
|
| Don't a lot about the author. I just came across the doc on
| Reddit and the practical parts of what's described checked
| out.
| spiffytech wrote:
| A breath coach told me that breathing on a timer stresses
| some people out instead of calming them down. E.g., people
| who have experienced trauma. Submitting their bodily
| functions to an outside force's control can be very
| stressful.
|
| Her approach adapted breathing patterns to listen to your
| body's internal signals for when to breath in and out.
| clocker wrote:
| I ended up in the same situation with this 4-7-8 Breathing.
| Actually with this one the problem for me is that there is no
| interval between cycles. After first cycle the next inhale
| starts immediately, and from the visualization you don't know
| exactly when the first cycle is going to end unless you keep
| the count yourself. I think after exhale there should be a
| gap of maybe 1 to catch up. INHALE-HOLD-EXHALE-CATCHTUP -
| inhaling for 4 counts, holding for 7, exhaling for 8, and
| catch up 1.
| oarfish wrote:
| is Nestor's book really excellent? I didn't make it more than
| halfway through because nowhere could i find any references for
| all the outlandish claims that are made. A lot of them are
| implausible anyway, and so far as I know the actual science
| does not support all these theories put forth in the book. If a
| thing is made out to be the cure to everything, it's likely the
| cure to nothing.
|
| would be happy to have some good references.
|
| this isnt to say that breathing exercises are not beneficial,
| but this book left me scratching my head.
| noahmasur wrote:
| Basically the last third of the book is a bibliography. It's
| filled with tons of scientific references.
| kdamica wrote:
| The most outlandish thing I can remember was about chewing
| hard gum to fix your teeth, which seems kind of crazy but
| could be true. I don't remember breathing being posited as a
| cure to everything, and I also remember plenty of discussion
| of various studies. It seems quite believable to me that
| improper breathing causes all sorts of problems. It's
| possible I'm too credulous, or that you're too incredulous.
| Who's to say.
| DontchaKnowit wrote:
| Iant wim hof dangerous?
| kdamica wrote:
| You can definitely pass out but that's why you don't do it
| standing up or driving. And of course if you're doing ice
| baths there are plenty of ways to screw that up.
|
| But overall if you're laying down doing wim hof breathing,
| I'd say no.
|
| And of course individuals might have circumstances or
| conditions that do make it dangerous. They always tell you
| not to do it if you're pregnant, for example.
| dartharva wrote:
| After a few cycles, the counter just completely stopped at the
| "Hold" phase! Damn good prank but could potentially harm someone
| gullible.
| PretzelPirate wrote:
| I used it and the timer stopped when I was in the Hold command.
| Am I allowed to exhale?
|
| I think the timer should be a multiple of the time to complete
| one full cycle, ending on an exhale.
| bravoetch wrote:
| How does it matter what part of the cycle it stops on? Maybe
| better to show the timer is done. Maybe they can add a
| disclaimer for people that aren't sure if they should keep
| breathing when they're not being told to.
| doakes wrote:
| Same thing happened to me
| russellbeattie wrote:
| > _Am I allowed to exhale?_
|
| It stopped for me too. I hope someone answers this soon.
| deadlypointer wrote:
| I have been holding back my breath for 2 days now, it still
| shows hold.
| weehuy wrote:
| I think it's because the wss connection drops out, least that
| was what was spammed in my console logs.
| cheekyturtles wrote:
| Sorry, it should be fixed now. The timer being multiples of a
| full cycle is something I'm going to add very soon, it annoys
| me a little bit too while using.
| cheekyturtles wrote:
| Okay, the exercise shouldn't finish during a breath cycle
| anymore :)
| babyent wrote:
| Nice!
|
| Is there something wrong on my end? The IN animates fully, which
| is a nice visual cue. The HOLD remains static which is nice. But
| the OUT does not completely animate and it throws me off.
| Tmpod wrote:
| Looks fine to me. The circle grows when you're inhaling and
| shrinks when you're exhaling.
| lbj wrote:
| Easily one of the worst UI's I've seen since 2020.
|
| Timing the initial in/exhales is tricky, because the circle
| contracts, not to its center, but to a nearly invisible (on my
| screen at least) smaller circle in the middle. No visible
| counters.
|
| After a while, it just says "Hold". No indication that we're
| done. And I sit there, almost dying for 2 minutes before
| realizing, that it's done some kind of quiet-quitting routine on
| me.
|
| Other than that I enjoyed it.
| jensenbox wrote:
| Same - I kept holding and holding. I am now writing this from
| my grave.
| cubefox wrote:
| This may be a stupid question, but why do we need to exercise
| breathing? We do it all the time anyway, shouldn't we be pretty
| good at it by now?
| knodi123 wrote:
| not stupid at all! the idea is that practicing conscious
| breathing _techniques_ can have effects on your stress levels
| and cognition and such. it 's not that you're learning _how_ to
| breathe, but rather _how to breathe for a desired effect_.
| Almondsetat wrote:
| People run, walk, and do all sort of things wrong even though
| they "practice" them daily
| vitro wrote:
| For me, it was playing a musical instrument (transverse flute,
| then shakuhachi) that showed me that I really don't know how to
| breathe deeply with my diaphragm. Or, that I wasn't aware of it
| at all, now my breathing is more conscious, and I tend to focus
| on it many times, for example, when I'm just walking on the
| street. Concentrating on your breath is a great way to stay
| rooted in the present and become aware of your thought
| processes. Breathing is magical :)
| keybored wrote:
| I use my mind all the time. I'm not a meditator.
| amelius wrote:
| I see one problem in the UX. When breathing out you cannot see
| where the circle will stop so it is difficult to mentally plan
| this phase of the cycle.
| penguin_booze wrote:
| Also, there's no 'ding' at the point the breath-out stops and
| the next breath-in cycle begins.
| dmoy wrote:
| If you want breathing exercises that go way into the specialized
| deep end, you can always pick up the sport of 3p rifle. You'll
| get incidentally very good at calming via breath, because of the
| tight feedback loop of holes-must-go-closer-to-the-center
|
| See e.g. Reinkenmeier describing breath work in
|
| standing: https://youtu.be/dHsG3GU9_PY?si=qlaLrSfKLCeiCgl4
|
| prone: https://youtu.be/5odRbYSbDIk?si=joBeFyyUrwBvQ7bk
|
| Just general: https://youtu.be/JJ3zXuFsrfk?si=xdQ5NY0cHfK89CCg
|
| The general points (deep from diaphragm, lean back, relax
| shoulders, etc) also carry over to other discipline like music
| (wind instruments at least).
| Liftyee wrote:
| As a smallbore prone beginner I hadn't made this connection yet
| but it makes a lot of sense. Time for some deeper
| investigation...
| hankchinaski wrote:
| I feel the 4-7-8 is more natural than box breathing the length
| seems to align more with the natural breathing without
| constraining it to fixed length. I feel like exhaling takes
| usually longer than inhaling
| old-gregg wrote:
| I feel the opposite. Especially the part about NOT breathing
| for 7 (!) seconds, which doesn't feel naturall at all.
| Something like 4-2-5 would have been much closer to my natural.
| To me the benefit of this thread is the comments recommending
| other apps/methods.
| londons_explore wrote:
| Unless you take really deep breaths, I feel like this is just
| going to end up with a slight oxygen deficiency...
| hn_throw2025 wrote:
| That's how it works.
| __turbobrew__ wrote:
| > Unless you take really deep breaths
|
| That is the entire point
| mef51 wrote:
| Plum Village (a Buddhist community founded by Thich Nhat Hanh)
| has a free app with hours and hours of different kinds of
| breathing and other types of meditation. They also upload
| meditations regularly on their youtube.
|
| This web page also has some good resources and breathing
| meditations. https://plumvillage.org/mindfulness/mindfulness-
| practice
|
| Highly recommend
| laweijfmvo wrote:
| I wonder how much is the specific technique vs. the fact that
| something like 4-7-8 requires you to pay attention to and focus
| on your breathing? Have their been any studies where participants
| were asked to do tasks while also box breathing etc?
| joemi wrote:
| I wonder the same thing too. Especially since there are all
| kinds of different techniques that people recommend. And
| because the ideal length of time for the different phases must
| surely vary from person to person, since it's a physiological
| thing and everyone's body is different. It really seems to me
| (disclaimer: I'm a layperson) like the important thing is just
| focusing on measured breathing, not the exact one-size-fits-all
| measure.
| dndn1 wrote:
| People say that it's a practice.
|
| A few years ago I was determined to practice, and it was
| hard, and then it became easy, auto-relaxing, like a cheat.
|
| I lost that practice and now it's hard again.
|
| I think GP is right to question technique vs. attention - I
| think we don't know much about the answer.
|
| But a point I recall in Nestors book is that there isn't
| really a lot of scientific study on breath - there is much
| more study on specific diseases, and e.g. teeth have a full
| profession of study and development that the everyday act of
| breathing doesn't have (even though these might be highly
| related!).
|
| <Opinionated> Some of the best references about breath today
| are not scientific, but written in the oldest books that
| survived in different cultures - and anyways, how much does
| the specific mechanism matter?
|
| Watch this space though - science is catching up! </>
| amai wrote:
| I had better experience with the 4-7-11 technique: inhale for 4
| seconds, exhale for 7 seconds, repeating for 11 minutes:
|
| https://github.com/mmazzarolo/breathly-app/issues/73
| smalio wrote:
| For anyone wanting something portable, I stumbled across this iOS
| app a while back:
|
| https://apps.apple.com/us/app/box-breathing-meditation/id673...
|
| Nothing fancy but it works. Been using the watch app during
| stressful meetings (nobody notices you're doing breathing
| exercises). Has all the standard box patterns plus some custom
| options.
| clocker wrote:
| Nice app! Wish there was a small interval between the cycles for
| catchup. After first cycle the next inhale starts immediately,
| and from the visualization you don't know exactly when the first
| cycle is going to end unless you keep the count yourself. I think
| after exhale there should be a gap of maybe 1 to catch up.
| INHALE-HOLD-EXHALE-CATCHTUP - inhaling for 4 counts, holding for
| 7, exhaling for 8, and catch up 1.
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(page generated 2025-06-06 23:01 UTC)