[HN Gopher] Mullvad Leta
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Mullvad Leta
        
       Author : microflash
       Score  : 292 points
       Date   : 2025-05-28 14:38 UTC (8 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (leta.mullvad.net)
 (TXT) w3m dump (leta.mullvad.net)
        
       | esafak wrote:
       | Mods: Consider adding to the title: A privacy focused search
       | engine
       | 
       | I quoted their FAQ; it's not editorializing:
       | https://leta.mullvad.net/faq
        
         | microflash wrote:
         | I did add that description but seems like it was edited by
         | mods.
        
           | lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote:
           | I presume that's because calling it privacy-focused is
           | considered editorializing. I'd at least hope it can have
           | "(search engine)" or similar because I had no idea what it
           | was before clicking.
        
             | microflash wrote:
             | Yeah. I usually stick to original titles and don't
             | editorialize them, except when the title itself does not
             | make it obvious what it is about.
        
             | glenstein wrote:
             | I had assumed it was Mullvad announcing their own LLM.
        
         | Barbing wrote:
         | Right, one that by my understanding "pools" searches, in a way.
         | As their blog put it in 2023:
         | 
         | "Mullvad Leta uses the Google Search API as a proxy, caching
         | each search. These cached results are shared amongst all users,
         | reducing costs and improving privacy. This service is user-
         | supported and doesn't rely on ads or data selling."
        
           | blibble wrote:
           | I thought the google search and bing API terms explicitly
           | forbade you from caching the results for more than a short
           | period of time
           | 
           | exactly to stop people doing this
        
             | lcnPylGDnU4H9OF wrote:
             | That short period of time is likely to pool a group of
             | users. Even if not, using Mullvad as a personal proxy for
             | Google is a better privacy-conscious decision than using
             | Google directly.
        
             | brewdad wrote:
             | Just call it AI and there are no rules.
        
           | KoolKat23 wrote:
           | I'm curious doesn't outright say whether personal data is
           | logged or kept? Like with the hashed original search or even
           | separately.
           | 
           | The FAQ also mentions user changeable settings for freshness,
           | can't see that.
           | 
           | Still very kind of them :)
        
           | thayne wrote:
           | It seems like the Google Search API quotas would be a
           | problem, unless they have some special deal with Google.
        
         | voytec wrote:
         | > Mods: Consider adding to the title: A privacy focused search
         | engine
         | 
         | @dang No - please don't do it. This request is plain stupid.
         | 
         | Apple and Google being "privacy-focused" is a silly buzz-phrase
         | at this point. Mullvad is tied to Alphabet/Google.
         | 
         | EDIT (2025 05 28 16:45 UTC): great to see how my recent
         | comments were raided <3
         | 
         | Who the fuck have I annoyed? :)
        
           | PufPufPuf wrote:
           | The request is just to add context to the title. The
           | perceived veracity of that title isn't really important, if
           | they decided to call themselves that.
           | 
           | BTW what ties are you talking about? Is there a source for
           | that claim?
        
           | dang wrote:
           | > plain stupid
           | 
           | You broke the site guideline against calling names, at least.
           | 
           | https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
        
       | VonGuard wrote:
       | Mullvad swinging for the fences suddenly. They have a billboard
       | in South San Francisco, too. Did they get a cash infusion? Why
       | all of the sudden are they expanding? Honestly, I'd have changed
       | the name by now...
        
         | oscarmoxon wrote:
         | They're also littering the London tube system with ads -
         | there's definitely been a lottery win or a series A.
        
           | parkaboy wrote:
           | They were one of the earliest to adopt bitcoin and monero
           | payments--if they didn't convert all those payments
           | immediately to cash, they're probably sitting pretty right
           | now.
        
             | dijit wrote:
             | They also have a partnership with Tailscale that can't be
             | undersold.
             | 
             | I'm not sure how much it adds to their bottom line for each
             | sale, but my corp was using the Mullvad VPN addition to
             | tailscale to do global testing by our developers.
             | 
             | IE; "is something blocked, do we detect GEOIP properly"
             | etc;
        
               | george_perez wrote:
               | And Mozilla VPN as well.
        
               | haiku2077 wrote:
               | The Tailscale integration is super handy while traveling.
               | One app to access my home server and my home region.
        
           | unfitted2545 wrote:
           | And whole buses!
        
           | noir_lord wrote:
           | Now's a good time since the online safety bill kicks in
           | towards end of July.
           | 
           | UK use of VPN'a outside the office/work environment is gonna
           | skyrocket.
        
         | jjice wrote:
         | Curious why the name change suggestion. Honestly, I immediately
         | thought of the Seinfeld episode where Jerry forgets the woman's
         | name.
         | 
         | > Mullva?
        
           | fernandotakai wrote:
           | kind of of topic, but i had to google to find out which
           | female part rhymed with dolores, because it made no sense to
           | me (as an ESL).
           | 
           | (for people wondering, it's clitoris).
           | 
           | https://seinfeld.fandom.com/wiki/The_Junior_Mint
           | 
           | https://seinfeld.fandom.com/wiki/Dolores
        
             | philsnow wrote:
             | In (American, at least) English, there's a very common
             | pattern of vowel reduction on unstressed syllables,
             | resulting in "schwa-ification" [0][1] where all such vowels
             | become indistinguishable from each other.
             | 
             | In this case, we say "duh lorr uhss" instead of "do lor
             | ez". The second one doesn't sound like clitoris at all, but
             | the first one.. okay it doesn't sound similar to me either,
             | but it's closer at least.
             | 
             | [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_phonology#Unstres
             | sed_s...
             | 
             | [1] "schwa" is the name of the mid, central, unrounded
             | vowel, IPA [@]
        
             | trealira wrote:
             | I have to say that, the vast majority of the time, the way
             | I've heard and said the word "clitoris" doesn't rhyme at
             | all with "Dolores," so I wouldn't have been able to guess
             | it either.
        
         | holysoles wrote:
         | based on their company about page, looks like Leta has existed
         | since 2023
         | 
         | https://mullvad.net/en/about
        
         | Barbing wrote:
         | Yes, it's gotta be something catchy. Like "Rakuten"!
        
         | bosse wrote:
         | I noticed their billboards and bus ads in New York City a year
         | ago, so it's not entirely new that they are marketing like
         | this.
        
           | al_borland wrote:
           | Same, but on the train at the DC airport. I liked that they
           | align their actions with their mission. Physical ads like
           | this are perfect way to advertise a privacy tool, as their
           | ads respect user privacy.
        
         | prophesi wrote:
         | They prefer outdoor ads over targeted online advertising
         | 
         | https://mullvad.net/en/blog/advertising-that-targets-everyon...
        
         | tomxor wrote:
         | I had to switch to iVPN last year (similar ethos), because
         | Mullvad became pretty much unusable due to blacklisting and
         | laggy DNS servers.
         | 
         | I'm assuming it has something to do with the push in recent
         | years to expand their userbase, but they don't seem to be able
         | to keep a clean enough pool of IPs like the big popular ones to
         | cope. I know all VPNs struggle with this but it was getting
         | ridiculous, where every single server in a country would
         | receive infinite re-captcha.
        
           | lysace wrote:
           | Not quite my experience.
           | 
           | > where every single server in a country would receive
           | infinite re-captcha.
           | 
           | What does that even mean? Have you also disabled cookies?
           | 
           | Typically it's a Cloudflare captcha if you're doing that, not
           | a re-captcha. And afaik pretty much everyone gets this
           | treatment with zero history. Welcome to the modern web.
        
             | zargon wrote:
             | They're referring to the situation when a service has
             | blacklisted you, but will pretend they haven't and give you
             | captcha after captcha to keep you busy.
        
             | encom wrote:
             | >Welcome to the modern web.
             | 
             | Cloudflare recently started holding stackoverflow hostage
             | as well. "Weird" OS + "weird" browser + cookie autodelete =
             | www is hell, even on clearnet. I hate cloudflare so much
             | it's unreal, including everyone who works for them, for
             | enabling this nonsense.
        
           | INTPenis wrote:
           | iVPN is a great choice in terms of security, they also use
           | STboot, but I think you're just flying under the radar with
           | their IPs because they struggle with the same problems as
           | Mullvad.
        
             | tomxor wrote:
             | Yes, it only works better because the obscurity to IP ratio
             | is good. It could easily be as bad as mullvad if they
             | became more popular. But as I understand it the really
             | popular VPNs address this with huge pools of servers and IP
             | cycling?
             | 
             | One other issue I had with Mullvad that put the nail in the
             | coffin for me was randomly laggy DNS resolvers, they would
             | get fixed just by the time I start investigating it, but it
             | kept happening... I say this as a mostly happy user for
             | probably 7 years, but then found myself having to turn it
             | off more than on to be able to access most sites.
        
         | RemainsOfTheDay wrote:
         | I've been seeing Mullvad billboards for years, including in
         | Paris.
        
         | JCattheATM wrote:
         | My concern is that when they can advertise to the extent they
         | do, to what extent can they really be trusted? Anything that
         | popular is going to be a target by law enforcement, and we
         | really have no way of verifying any of their claims.
        
           | sillyfluke wrote:
           | Yeah, this advertising to the masses push makes me queasy. It
           | has the reverse effect on me than was intended. Weird brand
           | self-harm for a privacy/data hygiene oriented company.
        
       | DrZeina wrote:
       | I am extremely excited about this and thus far it seems to work
       | well.
        
       | taco_emoji wrote:
       | Unfortunately, this is blocked at many places of work because of
       | the domain, unlike DDG
        
         | freehorse wrote:
         | I am curious, why would a workplace block the mullvad.net
         | domain? Or is it rather a whitelist thing?
        
           | skyyler wrote:
           | People use VPN services at workplaces to circumvent web
           | filters.
        
           | hypeatei wrote:
           | "proxy avoidance" is the listed reason on my corporate
           | network.
        
           | FirmwareBurner wrote:
           | IDK, why do some workplaces ban Steam domain? Or block
           | Mozilla but not Chrome?
           | 
           | IT people are weird.
        
           | npteljes wrote:
           | Many workplaces use a corporate firewall, and on the admin
           | panel, they can enable-disable categories of websites, like
           | "Porn", "Adult themes", "Gambling", "Social", "Video
           | streaming", "AI", etc. One of the categories could be "VPN",
           | *.mullvad.net can fall into it, and it could be that they
           | disabled that category. At many workplaces, it's against the
           | rules to circumvent the company's monitoring, and so, many of
           | such technologies are banned.
        
             | 0cf8612b2e1e wrote:
             | Which is a killer because so many developer tools are on
             | "naughty" domains (eg .dev and .ai) which are automatically
             | blocklisted
        
               | npteljes wrote:
               | I don't think that .ai is automatically filtered in this
               | case, it's more of a case by case basis. But it's killer
               | nevertheless. "Adult themes" for example is a large
               | umbrella at OpenDNS, and for example I wanted to check
               | the lyrics of a song I was listening to, and it was
               | hosted on darklyrics.com. Nope, couldn't visit, because
               | it's Adult Themes.
               | 
               | https://support.opendns.com/hc/en-
               | us/articles/360061439112-R...
        
           | taco_emoji wrote:
           | Because they block VPNs
        
         | pugworthy wrote:
         | Yes blocked at mine I now see. Guess I've moved up a bit more
         | on that "watch this guy" list.
         | 
         | I don't know how you'd exactly handle it, but an NSFWCP (Not
         | Safe For Work Cybersecurity Policy) tag for some links would be
         | nice.
        
       | rasengan wrote:
       | This isn't really privacy or security focused unless 'trust' is a
       | component of security architecture.
       | 
       | Make no mistake, Mullvad Leta knows what you searched for and who
       | you are.
       | 
       | /Theater/ has no place in privacy.
       | 
       | The right way to do it, short of FHE, is to encrypt the query
       | client side, pass this to the proxy which does not pass the
       | source IP, which passes this to the search engine for decryption.
       | Search results are encrypted and pass thru in the reverse:
       | 
       | Client (encrypts) -> Proxy (passes thru no IP) -> Search engine
       | (receives, decrypts, performs, and encrypts results) -> Proxy
       | passes encrypted blob of results back to user -> Client privately
       | reviews private search results.
       | 
       | Edit: private.sh tried this in the past but unfortunately was
       | shuttered with the end of gigablast.
        
         | huslage wrote:
         | Mullvad has built trust over many years. There is always
         | someone who knows what you are searching for. The search engine
         | will not accept an opaque blob of encrypted data as a search
         | term, after all.
        
           | bitpush wrote:
           | The trust comes from them being a small player. The moment
           | they get big, govt will come knocking, and they'll be just
           | like anyone else.
        
             | Kbelicius wrote:
             | The govt already knocked and Mullvad had nothing to give
             | them.
        
         | abtinf wrote:
         | If the encryption library is loaded over the web, then it
         | provides no added security. You are still trusting them. Web
         | client side encryption is theater.
        
           | rasengan wrote:
           | Agreed, it requires something more significant like an
           | auditable (non obfuscated code) extension or better.
        
           | miloignis wrote:
           | This is a bit of an aside, but I see this take a lot and I
           | think it's subtly wrong.
           | 
           | Web client side encryption eliminates fully passive snooping
           | on the server side, but of course does nothing for actively
           | subverting the served encryption code. This makes things a
           | bit more dangerous for the snooping party as it's _possible_
           | that the backdoored encryption code will be noticed by
           | someone, and it 's at least possibly a legal defense - the
           | government might have the power to compel you to hand over
           | data on your server but not to backdoor your code.
           | 
           | This isn't a huge technical difference, but it is a
           | difference, and especially with the legal angle I think it's
           | an important one.
        
         | mettamage wrote:
         | I'd rather have some people in Sweden know what I've searched
         | for than whatever I'd find abroad.
        
         | alcover wrote:
         | What if browsers supported a property like _< script
         | hash=64192876>_ ? They would store the hash on first connection
         | then verify on subsequent ones.
         | 
         | I know this should be refined and hardened but you get the
         | idea.
        
       | mtlynch wrote:
       | They run Leta on diskless servers, just like the VPN:
       | 
       | > _We run the Leta servers on STBooted RAM only servers, the same
       | as our VPN servers. These servers run the latest Ubuntu LTS, with
       | our own stripped down custom Mullvad VPN kernel which we tune in-
       | house to remove anything unnecessary for the running system._ > >
       | _The cached search results are stored in an in-memory Redis key /
       | value store._
       | 
       | This is surprising given that they try to cache results for 30
       | days:
       | 
       | > _Each search that has not already been cached is saved in RAM
       | for 30 days. The idea is that the more searches performed, the
       | larger and more substantial the cached results become, therefore
       | aiding with privacy._
       | 
       | That's surprising because presumably they lose all results if
       | they have to reboot the server.
       | 
       | With a VPN service, there's not much they have to store past the
       | lifetime of the VPN session, but if they're storing search
       | results for 30 days, I wonder how they deal with this? Maybe best
       | effort is fine because they don't strictly need to cache the
       | results, as it just provides marginal privacy improvements.
        
         | KoolKat23 wrote:
         | yes, they state in the FAQ, any updates to the system clear the
         | cache. Caching is due to query cost.
        
           | bravetraveler wrote:
           | Cost that's external, too: Brave or Google are behind the
           | results. Having a cache is good, yes. It doesn't have to be
           | super coherent/whatever.
        
         | ignoramous wrote:
         | > _This is surprising ... as it just provides marginal privacy
         | improvements._
         | 
         | Diskless does not mean SSH-less or network-less. The "data" can
         | be pulled / pushed just the same, which is to say, Diskless, in
         | this case, is no better than _verifiably_ read-only partitions
         | (like on ChromeOS  & Android, for example).
        
           | mtlynch wrote:
           | Sorry, I don't know what you mean. When I said it provides
           | marginal privacy improvements, I meant the caching, not the
           | disklessness.
           | 
           | Diskless does provide privacy improvements, as it drastically
           | reduces the odds of something accidentally persisting to
           | storage.
        
             | kees99 wrote:
             | Diskless (edit: with OS in initramfs) is indeed a golden
             | standard against local persistence, but requires quite a
             | bit of extra RAM - few GB for "latest Ubuntu LTS".
             | 
             | With regards to preventing _accidental_ persistence, disk
             | with only dm-verity partitions is as good, with extra
             | advantage of only adding a little bit of extra RAM usage (
             | /tmp, /var/run, ...)
             | 
             | For that matter, even something as sloppy as booting with
             | rootfs wich can't be remounted rw (iso9660, squashfs,
             | etc..) and is the only mounted fs, is also perfectly good
             | against accidental persistence.
        
               | toast0 wrote:
               | You could run from NFS and not need much extra ram. Plus
               | you save like $25/node by not having a local disk.
        
               | kees99 wrote:
               | Yes, rootfs-on-NFS also qualifies as "diskless", I stand
               | corrected.
        
         | kikokikokiko wrote:
         | "That's surprising because presumably they lose all results if
         | they have to reboot the server."
         | 
         | Strictly speaking they only lose all results, FOR SURE, if they
         | have to reboot ALL the servers at the same time. If they
         | implemented a system where the cached results are shared and
         | replicated among all their servers, it can in theory be kept
         | cached indefinitely.
        
           | mtlynch wrote:
           | Oh good point. I didn't realize redis syncs data across
           | nodes.
        
             | treve wrote:
             | For this kind of application, they would likely distribute
             | the data across nodes, not sync.
        
           | vvillena wrote:
           | From the FAQ:
           | 
           | > Each time the Leta application is restarted (due to an
           | upgrade, or new version) server side, a new secret hash is
           | generated, meaning that all previous search queries are no
           | longer visible to Leta.
           | 
           | If I read this correctly, the cached data is per-instance,
           | there would be no way to share cached data among instances if
           | each one has its own secret hash and they are cycled on each
           | start.
        
         | xlt wrote:
         | If they are running in a VM they could live migrate the VM to a
         | different machine if they need to reboot. That or a cluster of
         | Redis caches.
        
       | mrweasel wrote:
       | Interesting solution to let the user pick which search engine to
       | use. Sadly Bing is shutting down their API, it would have been
       | great to be able to use that as well.
        
         | DaSHacka wrote:
         | > Sadly Bing is shutting down their API
         | 
         | Interesting, does DDG have plans to switch or start their own
         | index?
        
           | mrweasel wrote:
           | There are some provisions for their larger customers, see
           | https://www.wired.com/story/bing-microsoft-api-support-
           | endin... (https://archive.ph/IVKGT). So no DuckDuckGo and
           | Ecosia won't lose their Bing backends.
        
       | chvid wrote:
       | Fast, no ads, reasonable results. Well done!
        
         | bitpush wrote:
         | and stale.
        
       | DbigCOX wrote:
       | This is incredible actually.
        
       | superkuh wrote:
       | Pretty much the only way to use google search as an HTML webpage
       | instead of a JS web application these days. It's great. It
       | reminds me of the scroogle.com proxy days.
       | 
       | I use it for all but my retro machines, which is a shame. I know
       | Mullvad is a 'privacy' company but I really wish they'd
       | acknowledge that HTTP+HTTPS is more robust to governments'
       | censorship than centralized CA TLS only. HTTP+HTTPS would allow
       | my non-bleeding edge TLS retro machines to search again.
        
       | jsnell wrote:
       | Previous discussions from the initial launch, 2 years ago:
       | 
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36402162
       | 
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35964397
        
         | PrivacyDingus wrote:
         | 2023, hug of death coming in 2025
        
         | dang wrote:
         | Thanks! Macroexpanded:
         | 
         |  _Mullvad Leta: A search engine used in the Mullvad Browser_ -
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36402162 - June 2023 (142
         | comments)
         | 
         |  _Mullvad Leta (Search Engine)_ -
         | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35964397 - May 2023 (32
         | comments)
        
       | nosioptar wrote:
       | I was dumb enough to buy more than 30 days worth of mullvad once.
       | They changed their terms of service to remove port forwarding.
       | Because I'd paid more than 30 days ago, they wouldn't refund me
       | anything.
       | 
       | Screw mullvad. I'd have to be a damned fool to to ever trust them
       | again.
        
         | DaSHacka wrote:
         | Really? That's unfortunate, I heard of many people getting
         | refunds back when they removed port forwarding.
        
           | nosioptar wrote:
           | I didn't because I'd paid more than 30 days prior to the
           | change.
        
         | Cerium wrote:
         | I don't hold it against them, but I got burned by that change
         | too; but it was entirely reasonable, allowing inbound provides
         | abuse opportunities which degrade their primary service
         | reputation.
        
           | nosioptar wrote:
           | I wouldn't be mad, had they have been willing to refund since
           | they changed the functionality.
        
       | napolux wrote:
       | I'm using startpage.com, guess this is gonna replace it as soon
       | as it matures a bit
        
       | dangus wrote:
       | > Did you make your own search engine from scratch?
       | 
       | > We did not, we made a front end to the Google and Brave Search
       | APIs.
       | 
       | So this is pointless, and honestly kind of lazy?
        
         | JanNash wrote:
         | Is it pointless though if e.g. there are no ads?
        
           | dangus wrote:
           | In a way, yes, because without ads or any kind of revenue
           | source it's bound to be shut down.
        
       | Zefiroj wrote:
       | I wonder how well the caching works. The FAQ says 30 days, so you
       | might be getting a pretty stale result. That combined with
       | Google's "fun fact: 15% of all Google searches have never been
       | searched before", makes me wonder how identifying these queries
       | can be.
        
       | deelowe wrote:
       | I feel like the name "mullivad" might present challenges for user
       | adoption.
        
         | PrivacyDingus wrote:
         | current options are google, duckduckgo, bing, I think they'll
         | be fine; what's in a name? and all that
        
         | DarkCrusader2 wrote:
         | Totally agree. Everything should be Americanized as much as
         | possible so that it conforms to American sensibilities and is
         | easier to use and understand for Americans.
         | 
         | Who cares about languages and culture of few dozen people who
         | does not live in AMERICA.
        
         | sakjur wrote:
         | Am I (native Swedish speaker, so perhaps ignorant of secondary
         | connotations here) missing something that should be obvious? Is
         | mullvad inappropriate to some readers or is it just an odd
         | name?
        
       | tiffanyh wrote:
       | How is this different than using DDG with the "!g" ?
        
         | toast0 wrote:
         | Doesn't !g just redirect you to Google? From comments, this is
         | proxying and potentially caching from Google. Having an
         | intermediary is potentially of value.
        
       | xnx wrote:
       | These alternative search engines really feel like they're
       | fighting the last war. Web content is so reader-hostile that you
       | need a tool to extract the answer/information you're looking for
       | and not just give you a link to the page.
        
         | SirHumphrey wrote:
         | I don't actually. I have read far too many AI summaries where
         | the llm combines data about two different people with the same
         | name creating a biography of someone that doesn't exist.
         | 
         | And once the use of chatbots in this role becomes widespread-
         | don't think for a second that companies won't sso the thing
         | until it's about as useful as current search.
        
           | haiku2077 wrote:
           | I had an issue where Slack AI combined multiple people I work
           | with into a summary that was negative in tone. And of course
           | there was no way to provide feedback on this harmful
           | behavior.
        
         | hart_russell wrote:
         | If the dead internet theory comes to fruition, I wonder if
         | there will be "curated internets" where only good actors will
         | be allowed to participate.
        
       | dangoodmanUT wrote:
       | Aren't these APIs absurdly expensive? How are they justifying
       | these costs, or are they using "unofficial" APIs?
        
         | jdpedrie wrote:
         | Brave has a subscription tier that offers storage rights. But
         | it's ~9x the cost of their normal Pro subscription. I have a
         | hard time imagining that the cost works out in their favor
         | (discounting the possibility of a special arrangement) with how
         | long the query stream tail is in web search.
        
       | xyst wrote:
       | Search engines are so hot rn. Reminds me of 1990s, 2000s.
       | 
       | AskJeeves, anyone?
       | 
       | \s
       | 
       | I jest, but the focus on privacy is important. I used to use DDG
       | but ended up using (and paying for) Kagi.
        
       | jeanlucas wrote:
       | I'm sorry for being negative, but it feels to me just as a
       | publicity stunt.
       | 
       | No serious product, just a proxy for Google, while it is
       | interesting not a real solution.
       | 
       | But as a marketing tactic to promote your VPN it is an
       | interesting move.
        
         | lolinder wrote:
         | A caching proxy for Google is a real solution for a real
         | problem. It might not be a solution to a problem _you_ have.
        
           | jeanlucas wrote:
           | It solves a problem for a niche that you assume I don't have.
           | 
           | But it has no real way to monetize and is likely to be shut
           | down as soon as the marketing/publicity objectives are not
           | aligned anymore.
           | 
           | That's what I was trying to point out.
        
         | skeaker wrote:
         | Not sure what you mean by this, it is a real thing you can
         | actually use so obviously it's not "just a publicity stunt."
        
           | jeanlucas wrote:
           | I mean I don't see it as a viable product and as soon as
           | costs go high and/or the publicity expectations are met it
           | will be shut down.
        
         | INTPenis wrote:
         | It's not a publicity stunt when they're using the technology
         | they helped develop to run their search servers completely
         | securely and without any stateful data.
        
           | jeanlucas wrote:
           | Hmm, that makes more sense, framing it like that. I still
           | don't think this is a viable product
        
         | xlt wrote:
         | A proxy for Google is a product if it provides additional
         | features Google alone does not provide... in this case: Privacy
        
       | nalekberov wrote:
       | From the FAQ page (https://leta.mullvad.net/faq) :
       | 
       | > However, Leta is useless as a service if you use the perfect
       | non-logging VPN, a privacy focussed DNS service, a web browser
       | that resists fingerprinting, and correlation attacks from global
       | actors. Leta is also useless if your browser blocks all cookies,
       | tracking pixels and other tracking technologies.
       | 
       | In other words everyone can benefit from it. I don't know any
       | browser (not talking about obscure browsers like lynx) who can
       | completely resist fingerprinting.
        
         | VTimofeenko wrote:
         | Using an obscure browser that is not hiding its user agent is
         | arguably worse for fingerprinting.
        
           | nalekberov wrote:
           | Ironically yes.
        
         | haiku2077 wrote:
         | Mullvad makes a fingerprinting resistant browser. It uses
         | tricks like displaying the content inside a smaller window to
         | mimic popular laptops and phones.
         | 
         | https://mullvad.net/en/browser
         | 
         | It's not perfect (it's firefox based so that already sticks
         | out) but better than could be done otherwise.
        
       | smallerfish wrote:
       | So how do they make money? Are they hoping to convert users to
       | their VPN service? Or are they just trying to stay under the free
       | tier Google API limits?
        
         | haiku2077 wrote:
         | Leta is the supported search engine of Mullvad Browser which is
         | a privacy-centric version of Firefox that integrates with
         | Mullvad VPN. Think Mullvad Browser:Regular Internet as Tor
         | Browser:Onion websites. So this is part of an ecosystem for
         | their VPN subscribers.
         | 
         | (I'm a Mullvad customer, not Mullvad directly, but that's how I
         | use their browser and Leta.)
        
         | prophesi wrote:
         | In the past, Leta was a service that was only accessible to
         | paid Mullvad users. I'm unsure when they started allowing
         | general access, but that's initially how it made commercial
         | sense.
        
       | idlip wrote:
       | Why not embrace searxng^1. But sure I know brave and other would
       | rate limit for it. What would be the difference from duckduckgo
       | lite?
       | 
       | https://docs.searxng.org/
        
       | jonplackett wrote:
       | This thing has been advertised EVERYWHERE in London the last few
       | weeks.
       | 
       | But the adverts didn't make a lot of sense and I had no idea what
       | the product actually did.
        
         | diggan wrote:
         | I think it's a new/old marketing strategy. Make it interesting
         | enough that people see and notice it but don't understand what
         | it is, with the hopes that you go out to figure out what it is.
         | A brave strategy, but since it's still around, I guess it works
         | sometimes.
        
           | Sammi wrote:
           | It incentivises people to ask each other about it. But you
           | need high pervasiveness of the ad for two people to both have
           | seen it and ask each other about it.
        
       | jug wrote:
       | > Leta aims to present a reliable and trustworthy way of
       | searching privately on the internet.
       | 
       | > Leta is also useless if your browser blocks all cookies,
       | tracking pixels and other tracking technologies.
       | 
       | Huh? This needed better clarification because the two points seem
       | to be at odds with each other.
        
         | freehorse wrote:
         | I assume if you block all tracking technologies it does not
         | offer anything more than what you already have? Because then
         | your queries cannot be tracked?
        
         | jsnell wrote:
         | What they're saying is that if you had already closed off all
         | possible methods of being tracked, you'd gain nothing from this
         | service, since whatever other search engine you choose to use
         | instead would by definition not be able to track you.
        
       | worldsavior wrote:
       | I don't understand why Google or Brave are cooperating with this,
       | they don't earn anything. And if they're not, what prevents
       | Google blocking Mullvad IPs?
        
         | o_m wrote:
         | Mullvad is paying to use their API's, like Kagi does. Google is
         | making money on this
         | 
         | https://leta.mullvad.net/faq#made-from-scratch
        
           | worldsavior wrote:
           | Then how does Mullvad earns? This surely costs a lot of money
           | to pay for Google search results.
        
         | fr4nkr wrote:
         | Google likely just doesn't care. They know most people won't
         | bother using privacy-oriented services out of inconvenience or
         | apathy.
        
       | thunder-blue-3 wrote:
       | This would've been a great product 10 years ago. I've
       | unapologetically not had to use a search engine in almost a year
       | (or at least can count on 1 hand having to use it) since GPT
       | models have come out.
        
         | whizzter wrote:
         | More than once people at work have asked me for help after not
         | solving their problems with ChatGPT, and the solution was to
         | google and hit some stackoverflow answer.
        
         | homebrewer wrote:
         | The situation hasn't changed for most of us. None of the people
         | I've talked to over the past couple of years have stopped using
         | Google, none are using LLMs for anything other than translation
         | (or helping proofread their English) or simply for wasting
         | time.
         | 
         | FWIW, since we're exchanging anecdotes, LLMs have been
         | completely useless for me. I try them every 3-6 months and
         | always return to Google disappointed.
        
           | ranguna wrote:
           | I think both you and the OP are ends of the same spectrum.
        
         | npteljes wrote:
         | What do you use to look for products, and businesses? I also
         | use chatbots much more, but these are two categories where I
         | found search engines to be much better. But I haven't really
         | looked for an alternative either.
        
       | icar wrote:
       | I'm surprised this is created using NodeJS. Given how critical
       | performance is in a proxy, and that RAM is precious running
       | Redis.
        
       | benbristow wrote:
       | Did a search for 'test', says results are cached from 6 days ago.
       | 
       | When we've got LLMs with real-time search now this seems a bit...
       | backward. Not that the results for that specific query would
       | change much.
        
       | jxjnskkzxxhx wrote:
       | If people search CSAM, do they serve it? Isn't that criminal?
        
         | 38 wrote:
         | You must be fun at parties
        
         | freehorse wrote:
         | You mean if google serves it?
        
           | jxjnskkzxxhx wrote:
           | I'm talking about the search engine in question.
        
       | pipes wrote:
       | What is it?
        
       | zaggynl wrote:
       | How does this compare to say, startpage.com?
        
         | nobody42 wrote:
         | Isn't owned by advertising company.
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Startpage#Merger_and_recent_hi...
        
       | scdnc wrote:
       | I don't care much about that anymore because their VPN service
       | has really gone bad. They are great in terms of privacy, but in
       | every other aspect, they suck. Their VPN randomly disconnects
       | again and again, once even without the killswitch being
       | activated. They are getting blocked from websites much more often
       | than other VPNs, making the service barely usable while costing a
       | lot more. Plus, there are many other minor issues. I really hope
       | they improve because I want to keep using them
        
       | SergeAx wrote:
       | Wait, Google doesn't have a Search API!
        
       | alcover wrote:
       | > Leta is also useless if your browser blocks all cookies,
       | tracking pixels and other tracking technologies.
       | 
       | Err.. it would still be useful to mask your IP ?
        
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