[HN Gopher] Path to a free self-taught education in Computer Sci...
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Path to a free self-taught education in Computer Science
Author : saikatsg
Score : 134 points
Date : 2025-05-25 17:06 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (github.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (github.com)
| iamleppert wrote:
| You can definitely make the self-taught path work. I'm proof of
| that and have been working in industry for over 20 years.
| However, what I will say is the following: there are certain
| companies and roles which you will _never_ be able to access.
| These are often times the best roles, best companies, have the
| most money, etc. A degree isn 't just the time spent studying and
| knowledge -- you can do that part yourself. What's more valuable
| is the network and access to the alumni network of others who
| will hire you into their company just because you went to the
| same school as them. It's a big club and you won't be in it if
| you decide to self-study. That's the cold, hard truth.
|
| So what's left for someone self-taught with no degree? You are
| left with all the jobs the others don't want. You'll be flipping
| through the crazies, outright scams, poorly capitalized
| companies, or places that are already in a state of distress.
| VERY rarely you will find a real job that you can plan to stay at
| for any length of time. You WILL be paid less, and you're more
| likely to get taken advantage of. You will have a harder time
| getting multiple offers at once, because your overall demand is
| lower. So that erodes your position in the market and over time
| it will feel like you're on a completely different tract
| financially. You will need to work twice as hard, because finding
| a new job is much harder, even if you're good. You will
| constantly be doubted, by first yourself and imposter syndrome
| and next by those around you who have degrees. Make one mistake
| and the consequences are that much more dire.
|
| It's better than nothing, but if you have the opportunity to go
| to school (I didn't), do it over the self-taught route.
| Eikon wrote:
| > It's a big club and you won't be in it if you decide to self-
| study. That's the cold, hard truth.
|
| This almost reads like conspiracy. There's barely anything like
| that in reality, and the kind of network people finds at school
| is usually extremely weak. Otherwise, job boards wouldn't
| exist.
| beej71 wrote:
| I think ones school network is what they make. Over my career
| I've gotten three jobs due to my school network. (It was a
| regular state university.)
|
| And I do think most people don't effectively leverage it.
| luckylion wrote:
| Both your points do absolutely not mirror my experience. In
| traditional career paths (established company) a diploma
| helps a lot -- for some roles you won't even be considered
| otherwise.
|
| And your take on networks being useless is also strange. I
| work closely with people who have large and well-maintained
| networks, and the value they produce because of that is
| insane.
| Eikon wrote:
| > Both your points do absolutely not mirror my experience.
| In traditional career paths (established company) a diploma
| helps a lot -- for some roles you won't even be considered
| otherwise.
|
| For a first job? Maybe.
|
| I don't have one and it's barely been a talking point back
| when I interviewed, regardless of company size.
| IndubitableCoil wrote:
| I highly dispute this. Networks in college are absolutely a
| thing and absolutely advantageous. In my experience, the
| network didn't come from just sitting in class, but from
| extracurricular competition engineering/cs teams. Competition
| teams certainly helped many people get their first jobs
| through friends referring each other or elevated exposure to
| employers. In fact, recruiters would often have separate
| hiring events for the competition teams and then have the
| standard college hiring event. There's also an intangible
| effect from being surrounded by other highly motivated and
| mission driven students that you gain in these environments.
| I am sure there is a way to get involved in similar teams
| outside of college, but a well situated college significantly
| lowers the barrier to joining these teams and almost creates
| a funnel for it should you choose to spend your spare time in
| such as team.
| colechristensen wrote:
| It depends on the school. I knew a few younger guys from
| Stanford and whatnot who were really into the idea of
| preferring hiring people from particular schools if not their
| own.
| jsphweid wrote:
| Which companies are you talking about?
| thenthenthen wrote:
| In my experience over the past 5 years in EU and Asia:
| Increasingly many companies wont even talk to you unless you
| have 'a' PhD. You dont need this piece of paper, but it is
| one hell of a life hack getting one.
| cortesoft wrote:
| Are you trying to apply cold? The way it usually works is
| that someone you have worked with before vouches for you
| and that gets you past that screening.
| no_degree_a102 wrote:
| American Express, Capital One, and Canonical to name a few.
|
| Aside from Unicorn and FAANG orgs self-taught is still
| predominantly forbidden.
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| I'm self-taught. My first job I got lucky (or the grace of
| God, depending on your perspective). After that, it never
| mattered. I had experience, references, a track record.
|
| And the older you get, the longer the track record, and the
| more it outweighs the piece of paper.
|
| I'm primarily an embedded guy, though. If you're doing web
| apps, or desktop, or games, or phones, or high performance,
| or finance programming, your mileage may vary.
| epolanski wrote:
| Nobody cares about degrees much after you've started
| working.
|
| Sure, there's very very big orgs where it matters for
| several positions, but it's not predominantly forbidden.
| electrolusty wrote:
| I don't mean to discount your personal experience, but I'm 100%
| self taught, and I've worked at some bougie megacorps, unicorns
| and startups of varying degrees of maturity.
|
| I've never felt like doors have been closed or that others
| doubt me because of my lack of education. I've interviewed at
| Google and Citadel, had an offer from Meta, etc. It doesn't
| feel like anyone has denied me opportunities outright.
|
| I make north of $200k/year cash plus the equity and perks at an
| early stage startup. I've been through two exits so far.
| Nothing outrageous but I'm rich by most peoples standards. It
| doesn't feel like lack of schooling has impacted me
| financially.
|
| I did start programming and doing the startup thing at 19, so
| maybe the early start was an advantage. I could just be mind
| numbing lucky. But, from my point of view, warning the up and
| coming youngin's off the self taught path is a disservice.
| harrall wrote:
| I know friends in a similar boat.
|
| Ultimately you can get very far if you are naturally talented
| technically and socially.
|
| But if you are normal like most of us, you are lacking in one
| or more areas and going to school (or attending conferences
| or maintaining a popular resource) can be one of those ways
| to shore up one of your "less natural" skills, but no step is
| strictly required and not everything works for everyone.
| coderatlarge wrote:
| "The Federal Reserve Bank of New York released data on
| unemployment rates for recent college graduates (ages 22 to
| 27). The bank found that philosophy had an unemployment
| rate of 3.2%, less than computer science's 6.1%, though
| computer science was more highly compensated."
|
| https://www.entrepreneur.com/business-news/college-majors-
| wi...
| whoopdedo wrote:
| I expect there's some selection bias at play. If you're
| taking a philosophy major in college it's likely you
| already feel confident in your post-graduation career, so
| can study things that you like. Whereas if you're in a CS
| track it's because whether you get a job depends on
| getting a degree. The student studying philosophy is in
| school as an alternative to work. The STEM major is in
| school as a prerequisite to work.
| brewdad wrote:
| Or Philosophy is usually a path to Law School on the
| professional path or a PhD on the research/academia path.
| In both cases, many/most of those 22-27 year olds are
| still in school and thus not counted as unemployed.
| ghaff wrote:
| I don't know how true it still is with law being, to a
| fair degree, perhaps primarily a good career path for
| those who can land at white-shoe firms and federal court
| clerkships. But I've known a lot of people who drifted
| into law school from liberal arts and related because
| they just didn't have great job prospects. And quite a
| few didn't even end up practicing law.
| shagie wrote:
| Unemployment vs underemployment I believe is the missing
| item here.
|
| https://www.newyorkfed.org/research/college-labor-
| market#--:... - this is the source, and has both
| unemployment and underemployment.
|
| CS has a 6.1% unemployment rate and a 16.5%
| underemployment rate.
|
| Philosophy has is at 3.2% unemployment and a 41.2%
| underemployment rate.
|
| The philosophy major doesn't have their sights set on a
| $150k new grad salary at a big tech company out of
| college. They're flipping burgers or working as a
| business person somewhere.
|
| This can be seen on various reddit computer science
| related career advice spots where people are holding out
| for the perfect software development job for _years_
| rather than getting _a_ job somewhere. They 're sending
| out (poorly crafted) resumes by the hundreds to jobs that
| their resume gives no indication that they're qualified
| for (or even read the posting) and ignoring the "we want
| to hire someone with some work ethic - bagging groceries
| and having a supervisor who can say that 'yes, Pat shows
| up on time each day sober'" is something is useful.
|
| They're refusing to consider help desk roles - and when
| they _do_ apply for those roles, its with a resume that
| points out how they 're skilled at JavaScript and have
| published a module to npm.
|
| They're refusing to apply to the job at state government
| that lists $650,000 - $80,000 for entry level position
| because that's not the job they saw themselves getting.
|
| The CS majors are holding out and not getting jobs that
| are "beneath" them. The philosophy majors are getting any
| job that pays the bills.
| ghaff wrote:
| I generally agree with your comment though I'm not sure
| what underemployment in philosophy even looks like. (And
| I could probably say the same of a lot of liberal arts.)
| Yes, it's not working at McDonald's But it could mean not
| making a whole lot more working at a publishing house.
| shagie wrote:
| Underemployment is working at a job that doesn't require
| that degree.
|
| https://www.newyorkfed.org/research/college-labor-
| market#--:...
|
| > What is your definition of underemployment?
|
| > The definition of underemployment is based on the kinds
| of jobs held by college graduates. A college graduate
| working in a job that typically does not require a
| college degree is considered underemployed. This analysis
| uses survey data from the U.S. Department of Labor's
| Occupational Information Network (O*NET) Education and
| Training Questionnaire to help determine whether a
| bachelor's degree is required to perform a job. The
| articles cited above describe the approach in detail.
|
| > Some additional research that utilizes these data
| include "Working as a Barista After College Is Not as
| Common as You Might Think" (Liberty Street Economics).
|
| https://libertystreeteconomics.newyorkfed.org/2016/01/wor
| kin...
| ghaff wrote:
| I read it as a little more general than that.
|
| >A college graduate working in a job that typically does
| not require a college degree is considered underemployed.
|
| So, it's not just about philosophy majors working in a
| job that doesn't require a philosophy degree but about
| any college grad working in a job that doesn't require a
| degree--which according to this thread presumably
| includes developer jobs but that's a bit of a stretch.
| RHSeeger wrote:
| Indeed, going to school for a degree in a programming
| related field (Computer Science, Computer Engineering,
| Software Development; whatever) is also much more likely to
| leave you with a broad knowledge about topics in the field
| (different algorithms, things worth considering when
| developing code/architecture, etc). Yes, you can achieve
| that same level of knowledge with self-study, but a lot of
| (most) people won't; because it requires going above and
| beyond for most self-study "curriculum".
|
| "But if you are normal like most of us", you'll wind up a
| more well rounded developer with a college education.
| libraryofbabel wrote:
| > from my point of view, warning the up and coming youngin's
| off the self taught path is a disservice.
|
| Hard disagree on this. It's true there are a lot of
| successful people in the industry with no degree, or (like
| myself) with a non-CS degree. And I agree with you that the
| OP's claim that there's a ceiling for those people is
| overstated. But just because it was possible to have a
| successful start in the industry 10 or 20 years ago that way
| doesn't mean it's good advice _now_ to tell 18 year olds that
| skipping the degree and self studying is a good idea. The job
| market is exceptionally tough currently for entry level
| engineers and not likely to get better, due to the end of
| ZIRP and AI productivity gains. Companies who have that rare
| entry-level position open can take their pick from a large
| pool of candidates. They will naturally prioritize people
| with a CS degree from a top school because without previous
| work experience that is the best signal they have to sort the
| deluge of resumes.
|
| I still think software engineering is a good career choice
| for a smart kid, but it's not the magic ride to prosperity it
| was 10 years ago. I would hesitate now to recommend any path
| into it except the top-school CS degree route. Sure, there
| will be exceptions, but you will have a vastly easier time if
| you follow that path.
| zer00eyz wrote:
| > due to the end of ZIRP and AI productivity gains.
|
| I think you're missing the mark with this analysis.
|
| If you go back to the original dot com bubble it was as
| much of a hardware bubble as a software one. Same thing
| with the mobile bubble. The AI bubble we are in has NOTHING
| to do with productivity and everything to do with hardware.
| I, as a software engineer am not going to come up with a
| product that can compete with any of the major players
| without a massive capital investment.
|
| Meanwhile, the price to play as a software engineer is also
| driven by high costs. AWS, for better or worse is the model
| and the go to, and it is NOT cheap by any measure. Its
| pricing model looks more like the iPhone and less like an
| efficient market. AWS is MOST of amazons profit margins. It
| makes tech companies more like franchisee renting the
| location for their fast food joint and less like
| independent entities.
|
| The thing is there are TONS of gaps in the software
| marketplace that need filled. These are companies that are
| going to be in the 2-3 million a year range and capable of
| being run by a small team (think ~5 people). Nothing that
| would appeal to the ycombinator set. You don't need
| Kubernetes, Kafka, or high performance bleeding edge Rust
| or massive Autoscaling to run these services. They are
| never going to get huge, and in fact they offer enough room
| to start another company of the same scale if one is
| ambitious and wants to diversify.
|
| Does your average 18 year old know this? No, because most
| people who write code for a living don't seem to know where
| these gaps are. Do the math on what it takes to make 100k a
| year at 10 bucks a month... add a zero for a million,
| multiply by 3 for "small team"... The number is shockingly
| small.
|
| Does your average 19 year old have the chops to figure this
| out? No, because 20 and 30 something laid off software
| engineers can't seem to figure it out either, even ones
| with "top degrees".
|
| That doesn't mean that there isn't a path for the sharp
| young kid to "skip school" and go directly into industry.
| That path is open source. A history of strong contributions
| and being smart is going to build a better network than any
| CS degree ever would/will... However if you can do both,
| open source and a degree (from anyplace) you're even better
| off! The same could be said for working at Fedex, Walmart
| or Costco while you get a cs degree from anyplace and
| seeking a job in a corporate office after. You have a set
| of experiences that make you invaluable as a contributor.
|
| Lastly, no one talks about the bad guys. There are plenty
| of scammers and thieves abusing technical skills who lack
| formal education and do well for themselves. If we're going
| to remove all the options and only have a narrow path, will
| we end up with more criminals and fewer contributors? This
| is sort of why "Russian hackers" is one of the givens in
| the industry (crime did/does pay well).
|
| I still think software engineering is a good career choice
| for a smart kid, but you have to bring more to the table
| than just code if you want to prosper!
| SaltyBackendGuy wrote:
| As a somewhat accomplished self taught outlier as well, my
| perspective is slightly different.
|
| While it's absolutely possible to no have a degree and
| succeed in megacorp, don't discount the randomness (luck)
| involved in getting the right experience and meeting the
| right people at the right time of your career (and aligning
| with market demands).
|
| Please don't hear this as "you didn't work hard to get to
| where you are". I certainly believe that folks like us, self
| taught, are able to work hard and teach ourselves what's
| needed to get to the next level because we cannot rely on
| credentials to carry us. A lot of things still need to go
| right for us to be successful, more so than folks with formal
| education, especially in the early stages of our careers.
| rxtexit wrote:
| It probably takes the smallest amount of interaction with you
| to tell you are absolutely brilliant.
|
| I am self taught and wouldn't hire myself to write anything
| software wise.
|
| For the average person, a degree is to signal a person is at
| least not me.
|
| At least smart enough to get through 4 years of CS.
|
| If someone is upper level brilliant it is hard to not come
| out on top no matter what path they take.
|
| That doesn't scale though for the average person and many are
| self deluded in their abilities.
| cultofmetatron wrote:
| I'm somewhat sympathetic to this having been self taught
| myself. there was def a struggle in the beginning even getting
| low hanging jobs. It means you need to invest a lot of your off
| hours learning new stuff and getting ahead. a lot of university
| educated CS majors don't learn anything new after university
| and only put in just enough to do their job. being self taught
| means you need to be a lot more proactive about getting ahead
| of trends and being the guy on the frontlines where there isn't
| a whole lot of people that know a technology at all.
|
| I myself was lucky enough to jump on the javascript train
| before javascript ate the world. 8 years in I switched over to
| elixir because i saw in it the potential to be the best stack
| to build MVPs in. These days, I'm maintaining one of those
| projects as CTO and we are interviewing candidates for a
| position. I can tell you personally, I value what you did at
| your last job and your side projects more than what you did in
| university 10 years ago. The one issue as someone from the
| interviewing side is that it takes a lot of effort to actually
| do an interview properly. I spent a lot of time putting
| together a coding test to test specifically for the tasks you'd
| be workin on as well as doing it with our applicants to make
| sure they aren't using vibe coding to do a half assed job. Its
| worth it though to make sure we make the right hire. when
| you're a startup, every hire can potentially make or break the
| company.
| colechristensen wrote:
| I don't have a degree and after the first few years no one
| cared at all from garage startups to the Fortune 100.
| doublerabbit wrote:
| As someone who did go the self-taught route, I wouldn't say
| it's the route to take if you enjoy depth via academic, I
| dropped out of university. I'm a practical person and learn as
| I do, I disagree OP, it sucks you got that end of the straw. I
| have had it just as good as others but you just need to put the
| extra effort in. Yes, you do get jobs not so good as the grand
| but you cash in those later.
|
| The route up is just more steep but in the end you end up more
| valuable experience and within 15 years time you then can cash
| it all in for a fortune 100 company. As that's where I am and I
| am only in my mid-thirties
|
| You should go to college however if university isn't your
| thing, don't feel like your forever going to be an entry grade
| tech.
|
| The route is more steep but it's all worth it; just keep
| seeking higher jobs with every departure.
| znpy wrote:
| If you worked in the industry for over 20 years and your
| network is weaker than a recent graduate, I wouldn't blame it
| on the college, your networking game is just weak.
|
| As a college drop out, i have a few friends from university in
| the various big companies but none of my jobs came through them
| (even when i want to work in a faang: i just didn't need it).
| devwastaken wrote:
| unless youre ivy league theres no more connecting. universities
| are completely irrelevant to tech in modern day. people are
| talking about their experiences 20 years ago. now, its just
| expensive adult daycare. remove federal student loans and
| grants and the market will finally correct.
| peterhadlaw wrote:
| I've been personally involved in the hiring process of our
| startup and I give you my word the school you went to makes no
| difference. In fact one of my favorite coworkers that I had an
| honor to work with was self taught and had a philosophy degree.
| In fact I've seen big school degrees go straight to heads and
| egos and been actively an obstacle to those folks.
| tptacek wrote:
| Self taught, no degree, zero friction in the job market either
| early in my career (job offers on Wall Street and the startups
| I wanted to work with) or 25 years later; have done consulting
| work almost everywhere, and had offers from both big tech
| companies and unicorn startups. No investor has ever cared,
| either.
|
| The "you'll be stuck with all the jobs other people don't want"
| thing is risible.
| cortesoft wrote:
| Yeah, I am very confused by this persons experience. I have
| never once seen anyone utilize their school network, either
| to get a job or to bring someone on; every time we get a
| referral, it is for someone who they have worked with before,
| not who they went to school with.
|
| I have worked with people for YEARS before i even learned
| that they have or don't have a CS degree. I have interviewed
| many dozens of people, both as a hiring manager and a peer,
| and we only look at schooling if they have zero professional
| experience.
|
| In my experience, a degree can help you get your first job,
| but after that it is all about your work experience and the
| connections with the people you have worked with.
| tptacek wrote:
| And when thinking about that first job you have to remember
| that you're burning 3-4 years of full-time work experience
| on the degree. That's a lot of time to fumble around and
| find your fit!
| tomnipotent wrote:
| > I have never once seen anyone utilize their school
| network
|
| I've only seen it at one company in Los Angeles where the
| founders were from USC and several USC students ended up
| interning with us through their networking program, a few
| of which joined the company full time later on. It's been
| the exception so far.
| nomat wrote:
| networking is important for sure, but i think software more
| than most other industries (say, finance) has a much lower
| barrier of entry for an individual with no/low resources.
|
| a data point for your second paragraph: i play D&D weekly with
| a woman that got hired at google straight out of high school
| and worked there for 10 years.
| cortesoft wrote:
| > What's more valuable is the network and access to the alumni
| network of others who will hire you into their company just
| because you went to the same school as them.
|
| This seems completely untrue in my 20 year career experience. I
| have hired dozens of people for both large and small companies,
| and networks do matter... but I have never once seen the
| network be from school. It is always about people you have
| worked with before. Even my coworkers with degrees don't have
| contact with their schoolmates anymore, it is always people
| they worked with.
| brewdad wrote:
| It depends on the school and often aligns more closely with
| something like a fraternity. I have definitely known people
| who got their job through a frat brother's recommendation or
| literally knowing the secret handshake.
| zamadatix wrote:
| I found there is some truth to this but it was almost all in
| the beginning and/or if you expect to be in ~the bottom half of
| your peer group. After those criteria pass it comes down to
| your overall ability to network throughout life (not just from
| a college) and general chance/luck (which remains a larger
| factor than most would like to admit).
|
| What college can give you at the beginning of a career, beyond
| the premise of a guided education in the field of study, is a
| piece of paper that says "I really did learn some relevant
| stuff and have the ability to follow through" before you have a
| chance to prove these things in the field by already having had
| a job in it. It also gives you an initial chance to build a
| network but that's true of however you manage to spend your
| first 2-4 years getting into the field. After that initial in-
| field job or two the non-educational related value of a degree
| falls off a cliff (and the educational portion becomes an ever
| decreasing slice of job specific knowledge you acquire over
| decades).
|
| My anecdote (that's all it is) comes from starting out without
| a degree and then getting a degree for the fun of it over a
| decade later. It's provided 0 value in any job, they've all
| come from references or recommendations from people I've worked
| with previously at this point. It was fun though, a chance to
| get involved with topics you wouldn't normally have a reason to
| touch.
| yapyap wrote:
| Yeah what you said BUT there's also big opportunities in
| networking
|
| I know people hate to hear it cause it sounds like a magic
| bullet and it does and I don't like having to market myself
| either but it does work.
|
| You don't even really need to have an alumni for networking,
| just a few relatively nice / ok projects, a website and some
| business cards and you're off!
| rkagerer wrote:
| I feel this take on it is a little over-dramatized. I empathize
| with the first part - connections are priceless when you're
| staring out - but in time you can and will build a reputation
| for your quality of work, interactions with (and then
| capability to manage) others, and achievement of results. All
| these can be developed at a no-name startup as well as at a
| FAANG.
|
| I went to university but only apply maybe 5% of what I learned
| there in my day job. I founded and grew a company, also worked
| in senior roles at others. When I interview for engineering
| positions, I'm much more interested in other factors than what
| school you went to or who you've brushed shoulders with.
|
| I recognize parent commenter's experience may be different, and
| give solid props for their self-taught journey. (In fact
| someone who can figure things out without having to be spoon
| fed is exactly the kind of person I want on the team).
| ghaff wrote:
| I'd probably argue that most people don't have (personal)
| connections starting out. Maybe, if they didn't go to the
| right school or school at all, someone they know is the foot
| in the door.
|
| >but in time you can and will build a reputation for your
| quality of work, interactions with (and then capability to
| manage) others, and achievement of results.
|
| That IS their network for a lot of people. OK maybe there are
| smaller companies that are 50% $SCHOOL grads. And there are
| other companies that tend to bias towards a certain group of
| schools. But I actually think that going to, say, Harvard is
| a secret handshake is overstated in a lot of cases.
|
| I sort of suspect that my undergrad may have had _something_
| to do with a job at one point but the fact that I got in
| through a senior person who liked my work played a lot bigger
| role.
| cedws wrote:
| I also wouldn't disregard the experience of university itself.
| I went the self-taught route, left school at 16, built a career
| for myself to get to where I am now at 24, but I do have
| regrets. Going into working in an office basically terminated
| my youth right there and I haven't had a social circle since.
| Not having debt is nice but if you can afford university both
| in terms of time and money, and come from a family you can fall
| back on, I'd say just go. Once you start work there's no going
| back. You're in the cold hard world.
| Scubabear68 wrote:
| I am most likely ADHD, probably in the spectrum to some degree.
|
| Tried college three times and dropped out every time due to
| expense, boredom, and personal issues like my father passing
| away from cancer when I was 21.
|
| I went into software development via tech support for a C
| compiler company, and worked up from there.
|
| Worked for the NY stock exchange, two top tier brokerages,
| several prominent Fintechs and ultimately consulting into banks
| and payments companies.
|
| It worked for me because I am largely an auto didact and do
| terribly in a school environment.
|
| The lack of degree came up only a few times, and no one has
| cared.
|
| At least in software development careers, degree matters very
| little to not at all.
| charlesrocket wrote:
| Sounds like a good way to separate oneself from a disgusting,
| greed-driven, and fake environment. Not to mention that for-
| profit education institutions have zero interest in your skill
| set--it's your money they want, not your success. I would
| probably enjoy studying CS in Norway, though.
| throwaway314155 wrote:
| > What's more valuable is the network and access to the alumni
| network of others who will hire you into their company just
| because you went to the same school as them. It's a big club
|
| The size and value of this club of alums depends _entirely_ on
| where you went to school. Not everyone gets into MIT.
| sarchertech wrote:
| I worked for several years as a software dev before I went back
| to school for my CS degree.
|
| I'm a much better developer after spending 3 years (already had
| 90 hours worth of a history degree) studying a prepared
| curriculum instead of bouncing around learning about whatever
| interested me.
|
| I think it's possible to do that on your own but the vast
| majority of people will never come close.
|
| I've also definitely worked with self taught programmers who
| were better than me. But I've also noticed gaps they had and to
| a person I think they'd have been even better if they'd spent 4
| years in a decent CS program.
| theusus wrote:
| A better alternative imo https://teachyourselfcs.com
| fzwang wrote:
| I run a comp sci education program to help students self direct
| their education[1]. We sometimes reference the OSSU curriculum.
|
| Althought there are lots of benefits to the self-taught route,
| there are some caveats which students should be aware of. You
| will have to work harder on the "signaling" and networking. There
| are definitely social benefits in being associated with a
| university. And a lack of degree will mean you're "marked"[2],
| which you'll have to overcome. A setback or mistake will be
| attributed to your lack of degree, whether justified or not. And
| some hiring managers can't take the political risk of hiring a
| non-degreed candidate. Not insurmountable, but this means we work
| on it from day one. If you do decide to self-direct your
| education, the benefits are that you learn faster and don't waste
| time spining the hamster wheel, so to speak, to grind out
| courses. Everything you learn is in context and relevant. If you
| realize you miss some fundamentals, you'll just go back and learn
| those concepts/topics. It's a different way of learning, which
| imo, is inevitable for technical professions. But it's not for
| everyone, and some students just vibe with it more.
|
| What's sad is that many students are sort of forced into the
| self-taught route, because they don't have the financial
| resources to go to college/university. And if they're not aware
| of the trade-offs, they could really struggle.
|
| [1] https://www.divepod.to [2]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Markedness
| Aurornis wrote:
| I've followed and part-time mentored several people through
| their self-taught education. There are a lot of pitfalls and
| traps that can send people down the wrong path if they're not
| careful.
|
| One that I did not expect but that seems obvious in retrospect:
| It's really easy to start reading Reddit or watching Twitch
| streams of developers ranting about the industry and think that
| actual skills don't matter any more. There's a temptation to
| think that you're a fool to study and practice the job skills
| because what you really need to do is optimize for interview
| skills. So they drop everything and starting grinding LeetCode,
| putting unfinished "side projects" on their GitHub that have
| all the right things in the README.md (just hope nobody
| actually looks at the code) and memorizing S.T.A.R. format
| responses for the common behavioral interview questions.
|
| This strategy actually worked reasonable well for a few years,
| but the game has changed and most companies are better at
| catching professional interviewers who don't know how to do
| much else.
|
| I should note that this mindset isn't unique to self-taught
| people: There's a parallel epidemic of cheating in college
| among students who see it as "just a piece of paper" and think
| they'd be foolish to actually _learn_ the subject material.
| This also hits hard when they reach graduation and are faced
| with the current style of interviews which are not as easy as
| they expected to bluff your way through.
| fzwang wrote:
| This is something I had to deal with as well. It also
| surprized me in terms of how limited their information
| sources are, esp with younger students. One thing I found
| helpful is to actually introduce them to engineers in person
| (like a take your kid to work day), which I think grounds
| them a bit. But this box-checking influence is everywhere,
| including in the K-12 curriculum. In some ways I understand
| their perspective. Most schools/teachers do have a box-
| checking mentality, and I think students intuitively
| understand that what these "educators" are after is a metric.
| They don't actually care about real skills. But to your
| point, the rest of the world actually values competency and
| it's something students should strive towards for the long-
| term.
| mmooss wrote:
| Don't try to be entirely self-taught. Everyone needs guidance and
| feedback from experts in the domain; otherwise you are certain to
| misunderstand things, have large blind spots (truly blind; you'll
| be unaware of them), not understand how things apply in real
| situations, and have no exposure to the latest knowledge.
|
| It doesn't have to be via college; there is apprenticeship, even
| if usually unofficial in IT, at many jobs. (College can be
| fantastic in many ways if you have the opportunity - don't let
| the reactionary politics ruin your life-changing opportunity -
| especially if you are intellectually curious.)
|
| Also, be very choosy about who you learn from; I'd be much more
| choosy about that then about what you learn, or even where I work
| or the job I do - do anything to work with and learn from the
| best people. The range of knoweldge and skill in the real world
| is almost impossible to conceive of, and a lot of it is so much
| BS. If you learn from C-level people, you will have C-level
| knowledge and skills and never know better until you meet someone
| who is B-level or A-level - there are entire organization and
| towns of C-level people. One big advantage of going to someplace
| like the Bay Area is the community of highly-skilled people, many
| on a level you are unlikely to meet in most other places, and
| being exposed to the newest ideas. Just being there can raise
| your game, if you take advantage of it.
| ModernMech wrote:
| Awesome collection of resources! Although: After
| completing the requirements of the curriculum above, you will
| have completed the equivalent of a full bachelor's degree in
| Computer Science. Congratulations!
|
| Is not strictly true. I've been part of CS program accreditation,
| for example:
|
| https://www.abet.org/accreditation/accreditation-criteria/cr...
|
| The program outcomes for a CS degree accredited by ABET is:
| Graduates of the program will have an ability to: 1.
| Analyze a complex computing problem and apply principles of
| computing and other relevant disciplines to identify solutions.
| 2. Design, implement, and evaluate a computing-based solution to
| meet a given set of computing requirements in the context of the
| program's discipline. 3. Communicate effectively in a
| variety of professional contexts. 4. Recognize professional
| responsibilities and make informed judgments in computing
| practice based on legal and ethical principles. 5. Function
| effectively as a member or leader of a team engaged in activities
| appropriate to the program's discipline.
|
| Really, this list of resources only speak to #1 and #2. A little
| bit of #4, but it seems to be an afterthought in the list of
| resources. However, self-study is not going to get you #3 and #5
| at all. Typically in order to fulfill these requirements, the
| curriculum would include much more than just the technical topics
| listed.
|
| Indeed, OSSU says that included courses must "Match the
| curricular standards of the CS 2013: Curriculum Guidelines for
| Undergraduate Degree Programs in Computer Science"
|
| I'm familiar with this document. It includes this:
| The education that undergraduates in computer science receive
| must adequately prepare them for the workforce in a more holistic
| way than simply conveying technical facts. Indeed, soft skills
| (such as teamwork, verbal and written communication, time
| management, problem solving, and flexibility) and personal
| attributes (such as risk tolerance, collegiality, patience, work
| ethic, identification of opportunity, sense of social
| responsibility, and appreciation for diversity) play a critical
| role in the workplace. Successfully applying technical knowledge
| in practice often requires an ability to tolerate ambiguity and
| to negotiate and work well with others from different backgrounds
| and disciplines. These overarching considerations are important
| for promoting successful professional practice in a variety of
| career paths.
|
| The reason I'm saying this is because often times, an
| undergraduate I'm advising will come into my office with a
| schedule of 12-15 credits of tech/math/science. They will explain
| to me "I only want to take technical courses, I don't see the
| purpose of taking courses in English or History, they are a waste
| of time." And I get that, I felt that way in school too. I
| thought those courses were preventing me from learning CS, but it
| was only after I left school when I realized all those "soft"
| courses I had taken actually prepared me to face the challenges I
| would in CS.
|
| So I will continue to watch this resource, because I love a good
| compendium. But I would say they should not say what they provide
| is "equivalent of a full bachelor's degree in Computer Science"
| because even the standards they say they are trying to meet
| indicate they fall short.
| limflick wrote:
| To be fair #3 and #4 are abilities I believe can only be learnt
| through actual work experience. Not much colleges can do in
| that regard. Sure, group projects, presentations,
| hosting/participating in workshops etc. did help a bit, but
| they were all fairly rudimentary in terms of developing those
| skills. Internships are key.
|
| Couldn't agree more regarding taking English/History courses. I
| find that understanding and dissecting good English literature
| isn't any less challenging than any computer science problem.
| aardvark179 wrote:
| So several people in this thread have talked about academia
| giving you a network, and getting jobs via that, but have also
| conflated that with companies only hiring from particular
| schools.
|
| The network of contacts you make through university and your
| careers is a mechanism by which you hear about jobs you might
| otherwise never get the chance to apply for. That's a very real
| thing, but will tend to be dominated by contacts you make after
| university as your career progresses.
|
| The other thing of needed a degree from a particular university,
| or a PhD, isn't so much about a network as that degree being a
| shibboleth. The person reading your job application sees that and
| knows there are questions they don't need to ask.
|
| These are both things you can, and may need to, work around if
| you go down the self taught route. Depending on the work you want
| to do you may need to make sure you do work which either you can
| point to or other people will see so that you hear about those
| jobs, or get a referral to avoid the normal job requirements.
| tomnipotent wrote:
| > you might otherwise never get the chance to apply for
|
| It kind of reminds me of the whole "luck is not a strategy, but
| increasing your number of attempts is". Having a network
| increases the number of chances you have to get lucky. I have a
| friend that joined a work softball league, and that network
| eventually led him to a role with another company participating
| in the league.
| fHr wrote:
| Ah yes more people in CS are needed, let me check that chart with
| the most % of jobless people out of all fresh grad majors, cs is
| almost leading now.
| trklausss wrote:
| What I'm missing is some math like differential equations (both
| ordinary and partial). Does anyone have a good (and free)
| resource on that?
| AnimalMuppet wrote:
| Would you settle for low cost instead of free? Western
| Governors University I believe has such courses.
| sn9 wrote:
| MIT OCW Scholar.
| waciuma wrote:
| If you're an experienced engineer that wants to give back to
| learners, OSSU is a great place to do so. This can look like:
|
| - Setting a regular time that you'll pair (or mob!) program on a
| side project of your own with OSSU learners. - Developing
| familiarity with one or more courses in the curriculum and
| responding to students who have questions or are stuck. -
| Attending weekly check-in meetings, sharing what you are working
| on and listening to what learners are working on.
|
| To do so - Visit our Discord server:
| https://discord.gg/wuytwK5s9h - And ping me @waciuma or the
| @tutor role
|
| I'm one of the leaders of OSSU and we agree that community,
| networking, and projects are part of a complete education. That's
| why we celebrate not only the professors and universities
| creating free courses, but also the many engineers and
| practitioners that have volunteered with OSSU learners over the
| years. I hope some of you will join that group!
| epolanski wrote:
| Not gonna lie, the amount of defensiveness people have in these
| threads, both camps, is a bit sad.
| AstroBen wrote:
| I wonder how much the 'free and open source' requirements of this
| curriculum hold it back. Someone serious about self learning
| shouldn't be hesitant to invest some money in good material
| Havoc wrote:
| To what end?
|
| Surely a community college level education is more conducive to
| getting a job. And if aim is to make money I'd probably attempt
| something closer to neal.fun or levels.io not this. If you're not
| getting the piece of paper then you maybe as well yolo it
|
| What does that leave? Straight interest only learning for the
| sake of it?
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