[HN Gopher] The Newark airport crisis
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       The Newark airport crisis
        
       Author : 01-_-
       Score  : 104 points
       Date   : 2025-05-25 17:04 UTC (5 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.theverge.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.theverge.com)
        
       | alwa wrote:
       | https://archive.is/9tLpI
        
       | bzmrgonz wrote:
       | What's stopping us from implementing holo style 3d displays like
       | in the movies? Star-Trek etc. Are we not there yet??
       | alternatively, what about VR? we could virtually project the
       | traffic controllers out into space like silver-surfer or ironman
       | right(pov of course)? I'm not an expert, but it seems we need a
       | better UX/UI right?
        
         | alephnerd wrote:
         | > but it seems we need a better UX/UI right?
         | 
         | Wrong.
         | 
         | It's the fact that the FAA has $5.2B in outstanding repairs but
         | only $1.7B allocated for repair.
         | 
         | On top of that, the GS pay scale penalizes federal employees in
         | high CoL areas.
         | 
         | Both are very difficult problems to solve, as the former means
         | dramatically increasing the FAA's budget (which is tiny for the
         | scope of responsibility it has across North America), and the
         | latter means completely reforming the General Schedule.
         | 
         | On top of that, Congress constantly meddles with the FAA and
         | DoT in general because it's the easiest way to get some quick
         | wins for constituents.
         | 
         | The FAA has been working on modernizing air traffic control,
         | but that project won't be completed til 2030 at the earliest.
         | 
         | Furthermore, the Northeast is a uniquely congested airspace
         | with the massive number of airports and passengers.
        
           | mschuster91 wrote:
           | The budgetary questions are unrelated to UX/UI stagnation
           | though.
           | 
           | It's annoying how many modern web sites change their entire
           | design framework once every two years, yes. But ATC?
           | Aeronautics in general? Most of maritime? Once it's
           | certified, it's practically ossified - and for good reason.
           | Bad UI/UX can literally kill [1].
           | 
           | Nevertheless, I think it's worth having the debate - and that
           | led by actual air traffic controllers, please - if and if
           | yes, how, UX/UI can be improved.
           | 
           | [1] https://uxmovement.com/buttons/how-an-interface-mode-
           | killed-...
        
             | alephnerd wrote:
             | On the hierarchy of needs, it's a much lower priority than
             | actually investing in solving maintenance related problems
             | that are the primary cause of the Newark ATC related
             | issues.
        
               | mschuster91 wrote:
               | Sure, sure, but this can and should be done in parallel.
        
         | dehrmann wrote:
         | > I'm not an expert, but it seems we need a better UX/UI right?
         | 
         | This isn't where the problem is. It's system reliability,
         | increased air traffic, and increased controller workload.
        
         | plorkyeran wrote:
         | Are you aware that many things depicted in movies do not
         | actually exist?
        
         | heraldgeezer wrote:
         | >but it seems we need a better UX/UI right?
         | 
         | No, you sound like a middle-manager.
         | 
         | Talk to cashiers. They all want terminal DOS based systems
         | where keyboard is king. It's the fastest once you learn it.
        
       | ctoth wrote:
       | > To save money, the FAA elected not to build a new STARS server
       | in Philadelphia to support the move. A new server alone would
       | require tens of millions of dollars, as well as installation of
       | new internet and power infrastructure.
       | 
       | > Instead, it elected to send a "mirror feed" of telemetry from
       | the STARS servers at N90, traveling over 130 miles of commercial
       | copper telecom lines, with fiber optics to follow by 2030.
       | 
       | > The annoyances of traditional cable internet -- frequent lag,
       | dropped sessions -- are probably familiar to those who stream
       | video or play games online. But for air traffic controllers, even
       | the smallest service disruptions can become dangerous.
       | 
       | So LOL what, they just ... piped it over the Internet? Also can
       | someone make sense of this "new server" costing millions of
       | dollars? Presumably it's not the cost of a server, which is
       | orders and orders of magnitude less than that?
        
         | alephnerd wrote:
         | Aerospace is hard.
         | 
         | An ATCS like STARS needs to feed from multiple different OT and
         | IT sources like radars, weather stations, other TRACONs, etc
         | and is implemented in it's own airgapped environment.
         | 
         | It can get very pricy very quick. On top of that, the FAA's
         | budget has been sclerotic for decades now after the 1980s era
         | union action and the 1990s era national cost cutting.
         | 
         | And finally, it is a political organization, and NATCA is a
         | fairly prominent union within the AFL-CIO, and could make the
         | lives of NJ representatives hell for pushing reassignment out
         | of Newark.
        
           | amluto wrote:
           | > Aerospace is hard.
           | 
           | I would believe it _was_ hard. And maybe it still is if
           | you're unwilling or unable to take advantage of modern
           | technology.
           | 
           | Current low-cost equipment can easily send 10 or 100Gbps over
           | long distance fiber links. Depending on how quickly you want
           | to fail over when a link or an entire switch, router or rack
           | fails, there are plenty of options that make various
           | tradeoffs between failover latency and bandwidth, all the way
           | up to completely duplicating all the traffic on redundant
           | routes. I would bet that the entire aggregate traffic needed
           | for air traffic control in a region is well under 10Gbps. And
           | 10Gbps dedicated links or leases or (effective) purchases of
           | dark fiber are not expensive on the scale of the FAA. Air
           | traffic should use a network with a lot of redundancy, so
           | maybe multiple those low costs by something like 5.
        
             | pixl97 wrote:
             | Heh, have fun hooking legacy systems to high speed networks
             | without significant testing.
             | 
             | If seen plenty of old stuff crash because you'll have some
             | ancient serial device with a limited buffer and someone
             | jams a faster link in-between. All of a sudden you have a
             | much larger amount of bandwidth delay product and the
             | system doesn't handle a few megabytes of data getting lost
             | on the line when it bursts for some unexpected reason. On
             | the old fixed line that just couldn't happen.
        
         | SoftTalker wrote:
         | Why not pipe it over the internet? A few redundant ISPs at the
         | endpoints should be as reliable as a private run of fiber or T1
         | lines or whatever bespoke solution they think they need?
        
           | mschuster91 wrote:
           | As soon as it's on the general Internet, any ill-meaning
           | enemy can just force the VPN endpoints offline by blasting
           | them with junk traffic.
        
             | stevenhuang wrote:
             | That can be mitigated effectively in this case using an IP
             | whitelist. All unrecognized traffic can simply be dropped.
        
               | icehawk wrote:
               | ...Until they switch to a bandwidth exhaustion attack.
        
               | stevenhuang wrote:
               | True, saturating all routes to a host is quite feasible,
               | but with sufficient redundancy (say with multiple PTP
               | wireless links, which can be done quite cheaply) you'd
               | have to knock the Internet out in such a huge area we'd
               | be talking about WW3.
               | 
               | There's no argument that a private line is ideal for
               | critical infrastructure, but if they must make do, there
               | are ways to make it work.
        
         | edoceo wrote:
         | When they say "server" it means the (cheap) hardware and the
         | (very expensive) software to drive these complex and critical
         | systems.
        
           | mschuster91 wrote:
           | If it's mainframe, and there is no reason to believe it's not
           | given the strict requirements, the hardware is expensive as
           | fuck and the people who can keep these beasts alive are just
           | as expensive.
        
             | WillPostForFood wrote:
             | I think they are running on old Sun Ultra workstations, not
             | mainframes. Hardware easily replaced and upgraded with much
             | faster, cheaper options. Difficulty is much more on the
             | software side.
        
               | sillywalk wrote:
               | > I think they are running on old Sun Ultra workstations
               | 
               | It looks like it, though in this brochure there is a
               | bunch of what look like Sun rackmount servers in the
               | background as well:
               | 
               | https://web.archive.org/web/20120930072126/http://www.ray
               | the...
        
               | heraldgeezer wrote:
               | Very interesting. Looks like the LITE STAR runs on the
               | Workstation and the full STAR deployment runs on the
               | servers.
               | 
               | But can you even buy these now? A new STAR server setup
               | must be x86 and virtualized,no? Maybe even cloud?
        
             | edoceo wrote:
             | Agree, I didn't mean 10k servers, I mean 100k servers (eg);
             | and I also meant $10M persons. Trying to (poorly) state a
             | two orders spread.
        
         | yusyusyus wrote:
         | Nah, probably on leased lines like t1s/t3s. Airport telecom
         | infra isnt always the best.
        
         | wkat4242 wrote:
         | A "Server" is just layman's speak for that big room with all
         | the noise and blinky lights. Including all the hardware,
         | networking and software that goes with it. Of course you're not
         | going to run critical infra on a single server :)
         | 
         | Though I have to admit I have seen government operations where
         | the "server" was an old dell optiplex desktop lying on its side
         | in a broom closet without ventilation, a post-it with "IT
         | SERVER DON'T TURN OFF", a spiderweb of cables running through
         | the closet and the "server" fans screaming for air trying to
         | keep everything cool in the enclosed space. I'm not kidding.
         | 
         | I mean, I know, government. Small local welfare-related org.
         | Shoestring budget. Sure, that sucks. But at least you can make
         | sure it's tidy and the cabling doesn't look like shit. Jeez. I
         | didn't imagine I'd still see that in this century. Do people no
         | longer take pride in their job? They hadn't even activated the
         | "AC Power on" in the BIOS so after electrical maintenance they
         | had to wait for the "engineer" to press the on button again.
        
           | gopher_space wrote:
           | There's no budget to fix whatever you messed up when redoing
           | the cabling, which we also didn't really have the budget for.
           | Everyone who knows what the box actually does has retired or
           | died, so nobody wants you in the broom closet shifting dust
           | motes near a working system we can't replace.
        
         | amluto wrote:
         | I doubt that 130 miles of copper is the public Internet. It's
         | presumably some legacy telecom system that depends on a bunch
         | of generally fairly well made but thoroughly obsolete hardware.
         | 
         | Keep in mind that Ethernet over copper is only specified to
         | ~100 meters. Long distance copper networks have been obsolete
         | for a few decades.
        
           | izacus wrote:
           | Here in my EU state, air traffic control still used leased
           | copper twisted pair for server link over ~150km as of at
           | least 2015 or so. It's pretty reliable and not "public
           | internet" at all - just two modems with known performance and
           | known latency taking to each other.
           | 
           | Might be something like that in this case as well.
        
             | amluto wrote:
             | Sure, this kind of technology works fine. Except that it
             | might be difficult to find people who how maintain or
             | repair the fancy (pressurized? oil-filled?) copper cables
             | or the modems, and finding parts might be interesting.
             | 
             | I did some enterprise network work ~20 years ago, including
             | fiddling with some inter-building links, rummaging through
             | closets, and visiting the inside of a legacy campus-scale
             | analog phone exchange, and I've never even seen the kind of
             | equipment that can send data at an appreciable speed (even
             | by 1990s standards, and even with repeaters) over copper at
             | a range like 100km.
             | 
             | In contrast, single-mode fiber has improved over time, but
             | it's not obsolete, and it has maintained a remarkable
             | degree of compatibility over the years. New transceivers
             | largely work on old fiber, old transceivers work on new
             | fiber, etc.
        
               | heraldgeezer wrote:
               | I mean its a Verge article.
               | 
               | They dont know the difference between copper and fibre.
               | 
               | And yea fibre was in the 80s too. No reason for new
               | deployments to be copper.
        
         | khazhoux wrote:
         | > pp. lag
         | 
         | > hold all traffic
         | 
         | > rdy?
         | 
         | > gogogo
        
         | heraldgeezer wrote:
         | What are leased lines?
        
       | moomin wrote:
       | It's amazing, really. You hear about "government overspending"
       | all the time. You actually look into something in any detail and
       | what you discover is a consistent pattern of underspending. Call
       | it mismanagement if you want, but it is consistently what we, as
       | votes, and the executive, ask them to do.
        
         | alephnerd wrote:
         | Most people see a number $6 Trillion and something breaks
         | inside them.
         | 
         | What they don't realize is maintaining infrastructure is
         | expensive.
         | 
         | Sure there are a lot of inefficiencies with need to be fixed,
         | but you can't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
         | 
         | Sadly, such is society, and this is a problem that happens
         | everywhere - be they democracies or authoritarian states.
        
           | bombcar wrote:
           | With 3 million employees and about one cent a flush, the US
           | government spends 100,000 or so a day just to flush. Assuming
           | three bathroom breaks a working day.
        
             | Barrin92 wrote:
             | >With 3 million employees
             | 
             | that is, for context, about as high as it was in 1960 when
             | the US population was half as large as it is today.
             | 
             | https://datawrapper.dwcdn.net/HQ8pa/full.png
        
               | cperciva wrote:
               | Does that include military?
        
               | Barrin92 wrote:
               | It doesn't, but if it did the decline wouldn't just be
               | relative but absolute because active military personnel
               | is actually _down_ almost 50% since its cold war peak.
               | The US military is significantly leaner nowadays across
               | the board. In terms of spending too, something like 8% of
               | GDP at its peak compared to 3.x now.
               | 
               | https://usafacts.org/articles/is-military-enlistment-
               | down/
        
             | rad_gruchalski wrote:
             | Close down the toilets. Poof, problem gone. Think about
             | applying to DOGE. They may like your ideas.
        
           | juujian wrote:
           | When people think wastage, they think bureaucrats wasting
           | away in offices. Social security admin, air traffic control,
           | and teachers are more like Amazon warehouses at this time in
           | terms of utilization. Less than 1% of social security admin
           | funding is overhead at this time. Any charity would be
           | exhilarated to hit numbers like that.
        
           | pj_mukh wrote:
           | "Most people see a number $6 Trillion and something breaks
           | inside them. What they don't realize is maintaining
           | infrastructure is expensive."
           | 
           | It breaks all our brains too, because that $6 Trillion has
           | very little to do with maintaining infrastructure. The bulk
           | of it is just direct payouts (Social Security, Medicare and
           | defense contracts).
           | 
           | Pretty frustrating that this big number means the government
           | is politically forced to do drastic austerity for things like
           | _keeping planes flying safely_.
           | 
           | Also, makes DOGE starting at USAID (<1% of budget) look
           | especially incompetent.
        
         | RyJones wrote:
         | Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I was a contractor for HHS for a
         | year or so. When I started, there was a server farm built for a
         | contract that was powered up and maintained; never used, it was
         | broken up and sold for surplus. Just before I left, HHS thought
         | they would like that program again, so us US taxpayers bought
         | another tranche of computers to power up. I don't know the end
         | of the story.
         | 
         | I could type more, but it would be a long and boring story.
        
           | newsclues wrote:
           | There is overspending. It's a scam.
           | 
           | There is mismanagement.
           | 
           | There is also a misallocation and underfunding of essential
           | services and infrastructure. This is the excuse for ever more
           | funding.
        
         | Modified3019 wrote:
         | Came across this post, which perfectly encapsulates a sort of
         | pathological inversion of sunk-cost fallacy, where some people
         | I encounter would happily let infrastructure rot and countless
         | people suffer if it saves them pennies on their taxes, and are
         | incapable of re-evaluating their position because "taxes bad"
         | has somehow become such an ingrained/religious value that
         | anything else is unconsciously and immediately rejected no
         | matter the consequences.
         | 
         | https://old.reddit.com/r/goodnews/comments/1kuaasx/i_voted_f...
         | 
         | >>I posted this somewhere else ages ago, feel it's relevant
         | 
         | >I remember having a conversation with my ex's sister and their
         | mum a few years ago, around election time. I try to not talk
         | politics with people because it's a fast way to lose friends,
         | but the topic came up between my ex and them over dinner and I
         | just listened in.
         | 
         | >I remember them saying that the only thing they're interested
         | in is tax cuts. More money for them. I had to chime in and ask
         | what about the NHS, what about funding schools? They said they
         | didn't care because they had private healthcare through their
         | jobs (finance), so they don't need the NHS. The mum said her
         | kids are through school so she doesn't care about funding
         | schools, and the sister said she'll be sending her kids to
         | private school one day. I was pretty gobsmacked at the brazen
         | selfishness of it, and asked what if they lose their jobs - and
         | therefore their private health care - or become unable to work,
         | what if when you have kids you can't afford private school?
         | Neither of them could grasp this hypothetical... it was as if I
         | was speaking another language to them. They were just like 'but
         | we do have jobs.' And what if you didn't? 'But we do.' It was
         | just circular and they couldn't see themselves in any situation
         | other than the one they were currently in.
         | 
         | >I can quite see why empathy is a hard concept for right
         | wingers to grasp, it was like they just simply couldn't
         | understand the concept. They weren't stupid either, and nor
         | were they rich - the mum worked in admin for a finance company
         | in the city, and the sister was being paid by the same company
         | (mum got her in the door) to train as an accountant.
         | 
         | >I think about those two every now and then when I can't
         | understand how the other side thinks. Because it seems we do
         | literally think very differently.
        
         | J37T3R wrote:
         | It's like tech debt. It's an ongoing cost in a one and done
         | environment, it's hard to see problems from the outside until
         | there's catastrophic failure, and if there's a slow niggling
         | annoyance of things getting worse over time the point where
         | people notice enough to care is usually past the point of
         | needing a refactor. So we get underspending where it matters,
         | overspending where it doesn't, and the solution is always a
         | redo.
        
         | nxm wrote:
         | Don't generalize. There was 0 underspending at the Department
         | of Education or USAID.
        
         | cperciva wrote:
         | The general pattern I see is that _operating_ spending is too
         | high while _capital_ spending is too low.
        
           | jagger27 wrote:
           | Newark's overworked controllers might argue differently. Of
           | course in this forum the general suggestion will be to
           | replace tired controllers with sleepless machines, and the
           | technologists here have strong incentives to advocate for
           | such solutions.
        
             | CamperBob2 wrote:
             | (Shrug) ATC is no job for humans, and I'm tired of
             | pretending it is.
             | 
             | If we were building our aviation infrastructure from
             | scratch starting today, you would get some _really_ strange
             | looks if you suggested employing humans to manage air
             | traffic.
        
               | jagger27 wrote:
               | It's like I summoned you! Just be honest about your
               | incentives if you care to make these arguments. Then be
               | prepared to answer the accountability question, for when
               | the system inevitably fails.
        
               | CamperBob2 wrote:
               | My "incentive" is that I fly somewhere every once in a
               | while, as do people that I care about, and I want the
               | system to be as safe, reliable, efficient, resilient, and
               | cost-effective as possible.
               | 
               | Don't you?
        
               | sofixa wrote:
               | > Then be prepared to answer the accountability question,
               | for when the system inevitably fails.
               | 
               | Airplanes have gotten increasingly automated. Who is
               | responsible when Airbus' excellent automations that have
               | prevented countless upsets and accidents fail? Nobody, if
               | it was an honest mistake, and lessons learned are applied
               | to improve even further.
               | 
               | The problem with modern ATC is that a lot of the safety
               | systems are bolted and backported on top of existing
               | extremely legacy tech. Ffs, the communications still
               | happen over radio where transmissions are missed if more
               | than one person talks at the same time. And people have
               | died because of this, as well as controllers making a
               | mistake or pilots and controllers misunderstanding each
               | other.
               | 
               | There's no reason to continue bolting more stuff on top.
               | A very large part of ATC can be fully automated and made
               | safer.
        
               | agubelu wrote:
               | En-route ATC is already mostly automated, with humans
               | supervising the system and talking to the pilots.
               | 
               | Arrival/departure/ground ATC has to deal with much more
               | complex traffic, emergency situations and edge cases in
               | general. Technologically, we're nowhere near fully
               | automating this.
        
             | cperciva wrote:
             | My understanding is that ATC controllers would be far less
             | overworked if they had modern (and properly functioning!)
             | equipment.
        
           | anon7000 wrote:
           | So true. The state of Washington has a great example: the
           | outgoing Secretary of Transportation was very clear that if
           | the state doesn't change the budget to be primarily about
           | maintenance, and much less about new highways or lane
           | expansion, then our infrastructure will quickly begin
           | crumbling.
           | 
           | Even the people in charge of our highways want us to switch
           | to operations & maintenance oriented projects, but the
           | representatives have not done so.
           | 
           | The incentives in government are really fucked -- you get
           | visibility and wins through cool projects, not by keeping the
           | lights on and things running smoothly. Honestly true in big
           | companies as well.
        
         | jjallen wrote:
         | The US overspends on military and underspends on most other
         | things. Not sure when this will ever change. Only when it has
         | to I guess.
        
         | readthenotes1 wrote:
         | Have been many billions of dollars spent over the years to
         | "modernize" air traffic control. If my recollection is correct,
         | most of it ended up being wasted.
         | 
         | The current administration is asking for a lot of money to try
         | to fix it again
        
         | ars wrote:
         | > you discover is a consistent pattern of underspending
         | 
         | No, what you discover is a pattern of _wasted_ spending. Then
         | they ask for more money to actually get the job done despite
         | all the waste.
         | 
         | People try to solve this by privatizing certain things,
         | figuring that competition will help efficiency. Sometimes it
         | works, sometimes it doesn't.
         | 
         | Maybe we need competing governments, and whichever government
         | is more efficient gets to rule. Seriously: Add a second FAA at
         | some test airports, see if they can do better, with the
         | understanding that if they can't, they get shut down.
        
           | cycomanic wrote:
           | > Maybe we need competing governments, and whichever
           | government is more efficient gets to rule. Seriously: Add a
           | second FAA at some test airports, see if they can do better,
           | with the understanding that if they can't, they get shut
           | down.
           | 
           | And you would be willing to be personally responsible if
           | people die in this experiment?
           | 
           | It's funny how people here always complain that any money
           | government spends is wasted, but if you look at big companies
           | they are "wasting" money as well. Just look at the number of
           | projects that google killed. It's simply a function of large
           | (and small) organizations that they don't get it right all
           | the time, it's difficult to predict the future.
        
       | bombcar wrote:
       | This is a classic system at 99.9% capacity - there's no slack to
       | take up issues or do anything but run at, well, 99.9%.
       | 
       | And without something like a major disaster, it'll likely
       | continue to get worse and worse.
        
       | KennyBlanken wrote:
       | Air travel is far too subsidized by the public and I can think of
       | few worse applications of public funds save maybe sports
       | stadiums. It's a huge waste of energy, pollution, human labor...
       | 
       | Rail is incredibly efficient, and there's a reason China has been
       | building high speed rail as fast as it can.
       | 
       | To all the "it would never work here" people: we used to be a
       | nation of rail travel, where you could walk or bike or take a
       | taxi to the local trolley/train/bus station, take a train to
       | where you needed to go.
       | 
       | All that was systematically ripped apart by the auto industry
       | either directly or indirectly. There is no reason whatsoever we
       | can't work our way back, especially given how much faster and
       | easier construction of a railway line is now.
        
         | alephnerd wrote:
         | > Rail is incredibly efficient
         | 
         | If you have the density to justify it.
         | 
         | There is a case to be made for enhancing rail transit in the
         | eastern seaboard and maybe parts of the Midwest, but America is
         | too large and sparse to justify rail transit at scale.
         | 
         | It makes more sense to concentrate on rail infra for freight
         | transit and work on revamping our existing rail freight infra.
         | 
         | > there's a reason China has been building high speed rail as
         | fast as it can
         | 
         | China stopped subsidizing HSR during the COVID recession. It
         | costs the exact same as a flight ticket now [0] due to high
         | debt [1] (excluding the Beijing-Shanghai track, which actually
         | can justify usage).
         | 
         | Most Chinese use normal rail for intercity transit, but this is
         | easier to justify given the density and ease of land
         | acquisition.
         | 
         | But even then, China began slowing down railway investment and
         | construction since 2018 [2][3], and started calibrating towards
         | air transit [4] as part of a commercial aviation push [5]
         | 
         | [0] - https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/13/business/china-bullet-
         | tra...
         | 
         | [1] - https://www.caixinglobal.com/2019-01-29/zhao-jian-whats-
         | not-...
         | 
         | [2] - https://www.caixinglobal.com/2018-01-02/china-railway-
         | corp-s...
         | 
         | [3] - https://www.caixinglobal.com/2021-03-30/china-looks-to-
         | slow-...
         | 
         | [4] - https://www.caixinglobal.com/2021-03-25/smaller-cities-
         | reach...
         | 
         | [5] - https://www.reuters.com/business/aerospace-defense/comac-
         | jet...
        
           | tuna74 wrote:
           | Going from Qingdao to Beijing is much cheaper on train vs
           | airplane. Takes roughly the same time as well.
           | 
           | Also, China does both new airports and new rail lines.
        
         | dehrmann wrote:
         | > Air travel is far too subsidized by the public
         | 
         | Don't most of FAA's funds come from taxes on air travel? And
         | around half of Americans travel by air every year, so it's not
         | a niche service.
        
         | everybodyknows wrote:
         | > I can think of few worse applications of public funds save
         | maybe sports stadiums.
         | 
         | Californians can.
         | 
         | Subsidies to the movie industry, plumbing run to waterless
         | urinals, bullet trains between farm towns, ...
        
           | sofixa wrote:
           | > bullet trains between farm towns,
           | 
           | This is disingenuous and you know it.
           | 
           | I think it was the wrong choice for a number of reasons, but
           | the farm towns in question are just first lot of the whole
           | network, starting with the (supposedly) easiest part. Instead
           | of building in the densest parts which would be even more
           | complicated and expensive.
        
         | zamadatix wrote:
         | I'd LOVE some proper high speed rail across the US but EWR is
         | also huge for international flights. A good rail network would
         | at least help getting to/from their for it but that still
         | leaves a good amount of flights that make no sense to dump.
        
       | wnevets wrote:
       | It turns out trying to run an airport like twitter is a bad idea,
       | who knew
        
       | dehrmann wrote:
       | > its implementation of a "NextGen" air traffic control system to
       | replace the current version may not be completed until 2034, even
       | though the project was started in 2003.
       | 
       | Governments (and a lot of businesses) like to look at software as
       | a one-time purchase, but it's really better too look at it as a
       | liability and an ongoing cost. It'd be better to have a team make
       | continuous, incremental improvements to the system than have
       | "NextGen" last-gen replacement vaporware.
        
         | throwaway48476 wrote:
         | There are examples of both. Firmware and embedded software
         | usually is a one time purchase. Tax software requires ongoing
         | updates. FAA software would fall somewhere in between.
        
           | pphysch wrote:
           | It really is a binary though. Either you need to think about
           | and deal with deploying (system-wide) updates, or you don't.
           | 
           | Even infrequent ~5y update lifecycles tend to be extremely
           | painful unless there is substantial investment in treating it
           | as an essential business process. This leads to a "kick the
           | can" mentality that translates to show-stopping amounts of
           | tech debt.
        
         | yoaviram wrote:
         | Software is a liability, a product is an asset.
        
         | ferguess_k wrote:
         | They like to give contracts to connected outsiders so that they
         | can take care of their friends and take the blame away. 30
         | years? quoting the venerable Sir Humphrey Appleby:
         | 
         | "Precisely. Months of fruitful work. Leading to a mature and
         | responsible conclusion."
         | 
         | Since it takes 30 years it must be a responsible piece of
         | software, polished to the bone.
        
       | ck2 wrote:
       | We had a 9/11's worth of death EVERY DAY for the first TWO YEARS
       | of covid
       | 
       | Then a 9/11's worth of death EVERY WEEK for the next TWO YEARS of
       | covid
       | 
       | We still have a 9/11's worth of death EVERY MONTH in 2025
       | 
       | Personally I don't want anyone to die in a plane crash
       | 
       | But apparently a hundred million other people do not care anymore
       | about others dying needlessly
       | 
       | So factor that into your next flight if you are taking your life
       | into your own hands?
        
       | coderatlarge wrote:
       | i flew delta out of ewr last week. the pilot announced over
       | speaker that air traffic control was serializing take offs on one
       | runway to avoid problems. we sat on the tarmac for two hours
       | waiting our turn. that was on top of another hour delay for our
       | flight arriving due to this policy.
       | 
       | delta doesn't reimburse for missed connections claiming air
       | traffic control policies are outside of their control.
       | 
       | it reminds me of a dev team i worked with once which used single
       | threaded memcache as a way to serialize inbound requests to a
       | server with improper locking logic inside.
        
         | pixl97 wrote:
         | Sounds like it's time to drop Delta
        
         | elijaht wrote:
         | What do you mean delta doesn't reimburse connections? I believe
         | they would still be responsible for getting you to your final
         | destination
        
         | hbsbsbsndk wrote:
         | > delta doesn't reimburse for missed connections claiming air
         | traffic control policies are outside of their control.
         | 
         | AFAIK if it's one booking on the same airline or a codeshare
         | they are required to rebook you. If you planned a "connection"
         | which is two single flights with different airlines you don't
         | get any legal protections. This isn't just Delta, no airline
         | will reimburse you for missing a flight you didn't book through
         | them
        
       | autobodie wrote:
       | Need more trains.
        
       | stn8188 wrote:
       | I'm in no way qualified to comment on the details of the issue
       | outlined here (though I did get stuck babysitting a friend's kids
       | for many extra hours due to a 6hr delay on said friend's flight
       | into EWR a few weeks ago). For anyone who lives far enough north
       | and west of EWR though, I highly recommend trying either the
       | Allentown or Scranton/Wilkes-Barre airports. I've moved my
       | business travel to Scranton 100% and have been loving it. There
       | are more restrictions on flight times, and basically everything
       | needs a connection, but it more than makes up for any time I
       | would have lost due to sinkhole traffic on I-80 and the EWR
       | parking shuttles. It's amazing to park and be at the security
       | line basically 3 minutes later.
        
         | mathgeek wrote:
         | Flew out of ABE most of my life, still an excellent airport,
         | but it's best to be aware that any connections through EWR or
         | PHL will be by bus.
        
       | cycomanic wrote:
       | I don't understand this sentence:
       | 
       | > Instead, it elected to send a "mirror feed" of telemetry from
       | the STARS servers at N90, traveling over 130 miles of commercial
       | copper telecom lines, with fiber optics to follow by 2030.
       | 
       | This does not make any sense. If they would really transmit data
       | over a 130 miles copper line (which I doubt even still exist,
       | especially not commercial ones), we would be talking rates in the
       | low Mbit/s. I suspect the situation is that the "last mile" of
       | the center is served by copper connections, not good either but
       | by far not as bad as a 130 miles copper connection.
       | 
       | EDIT: I should add if they really would have a link running on
       | copper lines it would have repeaters, which would be sitting in
       | datacenters. In New Jersey there would by 1000s of km of dark
       | fiber floating around, so it would be trivial to convert at least
       | the majority of the link to fiber.
        
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