[HN Gopher] Space is not a wall: toward a less architectural lev...
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Space is not a wall: toward a less architectural level design
Author : PaulHoule
Score : 54 points
Date : 2025-05-21 11:27 UTC (4 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.blog.radiator.debacle.us)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.blog.radiator.debacle.us)
| codeflo wrote:
| > have an NPC brief the player on how to find the level exit
|
| No, please, no.
| scrollaway wrote:
| You've never asked someone where the bathroom is?
| anothernewdude wrote:
| When has that ever been a fun experience?
| ryukoposting wrote:
| Since when has it been fun to be a human lab rat tormented
| by a sadistic artificial intelligence while trapped in an
| abandoned research facility?
| bowsamic wrote:
| Very fun if you get to shoot the AI in the face
| ben_w wrote:
| November 24, 1995, in my case.
|
| Rather more people would pick October 10, 2007.
| relaxing wrote:
| I imagine players of _Bathrom Simulator 2025_ find it
| extremely satisfying.
|
| Seriously, I don't know where this hate is coming from. Is
| it the idea that a "level" is a maze to be solved? Because
| there are other styles of gameplay, some where conversing
| with people is in fact part of the fun.
| ben_w wrote:
| Depends how natural it is.
|
| A radio call saying "Soldier, make your way to the mesa north-
| west of your drop point" could work.
|
| A spectator saying "Drivers, the end of this race course is
| also the start line" is definitely condescending and
| inappropriate.
| MattRix wrote:
| It's pretty misleading that you've removed this line from the
| surrounding context.
| the__alchemist wrote:
| After reading the article, I did some digging; youtube videos on
| speed level designs, reading internet discussions on these topics
| etc.
|
| As an outsider, I think a key point is that this concept only
| makes sense in context with game-industry conventions. They (From
| my dive in just now) divide environment-creation into _level
| design_ , _environmental art_ , and other fields. The people who
| do one specialize in it, and don't have expertise in the others.
| Gaining experience in both, or working on both might be a taboo
| (?).
|
| Another point is that the level design field is driven by
| superstitions, word-of-mouth, copying existing patterns etc, and
| is subjective. This is true about many arts, I highlight it here
| as context for the article. One of the author's points is that
| one-size-fits-all design patterns don't make sense for all cases.
| ijk wrote:
| Not taboo exactly, but definitely discouraged by hiring
| practices: generally the big studios want someone who can do
| one narrow task without handholding, and don't put much value
| on broader skillsets. And like most creative fields there's
| typically more people who want the specific job than there are
| jobs in general.
|
| Smaller studios, indies, etc. are typically looser (or just
| can't afford to hire someone who only wears on hat) but they
| are also less likely to have a dedicated level designer in the
| first place.
| mattmanser wrote:
| Does anyone else feel it's odd he uses Fallout 4 as an example of
| level design?
|
| I personally found the fallout 4 vaults really confusing and
| annoying and got lost easily, compared to Fallout 3/NV. Or even
| games like Deus Ex.
|
| Fallout 4 felt like a terrible example of dungeon design. They
| were either linear and boring, or a weird layout where everything
| looked the same.
|
| I'm usually pretty good at mapping game layouts in my head too,
| picking up FPS maps, etc. quickly.
|
| Aside from that, I also feel like he misses that irl with a
| chaotic design we usually have a lot of signs. A lot! But people
| don't really use them in games as it's easy for players to miss
| thinking it's just decorative, and you've only got a certain
| amount of screen real estate when looking at a monitor, nor can
| you glance like you can irl.
| Spivak wrote:
| I mean the real answer for how to "mind control" players into
| following your throughline is just leaning on the existing
| industry visual grammar for communicating with players.
|
| * Make the place you want the player to go lit up, and other
| areas darkened.
|
| * Make ledges, ladders, and other intractable elements you want
| the player to know are interactive yellow.
|
| * Pick a thematically appropriate "this is a wall" like the very
| common smattering of furniture and use it liberally to signal
| that this is the wrong way.
|
| * Don't use loops that aren't small, self contained, and that the
| player can see are loops. Don't use "diamond" maps where players
| must choose between two paths that end at the same place without
| making it painfully obvious that's what's happening. Elden ring
| with the grand lift vs the cave did it well.
|
| * Make not-the-main-paths short and put a useful but not
| necessary or particularly valuable item at the end as a reward
| for players exploring and signal that this is the end.
|
| It's not magic or anything, but players have likely played so
| many games that use these and similar visual cues that they've
| interned them without even realizing.
| oliverdzedou wrote:
| "(a) scripting, pacing, combat, economy: have an NPC brief the
| player on how to find the level exit, then place a ranged enemy
| turret, valuable item, and side-quest destination near the level
| exit"
|
| Seems like this option should really be 2 different options. An
| NPC briefing the players about the exit is lazy and signals to
| the player that they are regarded as stupid. The rest is great.
| CaptainFever wrote:
| This article was not convincing.
|
| The first half of a article seems to be the author rebutting
| their own meme, which I've never heard of.
|
| The main point of the second article is:
|
| > What sounds more effective for pulling the player to the exit
| of a non-linear level?...
|
| > (a) scripting, pacing, combat, economy: have an NPC brief the
| player on how to find the level exit, then place a ranged enemy
| turret, valuable item, and side-quest destination near the level
| exit
|
| > (b) the raw power of architecture: rotate a rock, pray the
| player approaches that rock from a direction that coincidentally
| forms a secret imaginary invisible line that mind controls them
| into hallucinating a path toward one of three skybox mountains in
| the far distance
|
| Which then concludes that one ought to prioritize the former over
| the latter.
|
| Which isn't really convincing; it's attacking a strawman. From
| what I learnt, it's more of using things like lighting, motion,
| frames, and sometimes literal signs. Not really "magic rocks and
| mind control".
|
| I think the author goes too far in the other direction. Both
| methods are useful; architectural hints (used IRL too), as well
| as game-specific hints (e.g. side quest destinations, valuable
| items).
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