[HN Gopher] A South Korean grand master on the art of the perfec...
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A South Korean grand master on the art of the perfect soy sauce
Author : n1b0m
Score : 206 points
Date : 2025-05-21 11:19 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.theguardian.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.theguardian.com)
| 0cf8612b2e1e wrote:
| How would traditional taste to someone who has spent their life
| on mass produced kikoman?
| thfuran wrote:
| Salty
| LarsAlereon wrote:
| Kikkoman has a double-fermented soy sauce in their product
| line, brewing starts with their regular soy sauce instead of
| salt water. The flavor is much deeper and more complex, it's
| actually less salty than regular soy sauce.
| interestica wrote:
| Have they thought about triple fermenting? Quadruple?
| dfxm12 wrote:
| Another commentor suggests this is more like tamari than soy
| sauce. If it is, expect a similar but more intense flavor and
| an especially long after taste. It's hard to describe the more
| intense flavor. It's like if you only taste soy sauce with the
| center of your tongue, you taste tamari with the tip, center
| and sides.
| GloriousKoji wrote:
| I grew up on kikkoman, view it as the soy sauce equivalent of
| Heinz ketchup or Best Foods/Hellmans mayonnaise and still cook
| with it all the time. But after tasting a wide variety of soy
| sauce I would describe kikkoman's profile as salty, metallic
| and stout-beer like. The fancier soy sauces seem less salty
| (despite similar amounts of sodium) and can have varying notes
| of oyster sauce, seafood, sweetness, coffee, molasses and MSG.
| etblg wrote:
| Are there any brands of soy sauce that could be commonly
| (even if its in an Asian market) found in the states that you
| would recommend?
| tpm wrote:
| One that we use at home and could be available is the
| Sempio 'green' soy sauce with 25% less salt.
|
| https://en.sempio.com/product/soysauce/view/605
| shawn_w wrote:
| Pearl River Bridge makes pretty good Chinese style soy
| sauces and seems readily available, at least in the PNW. I
| use the light and dark sauces a lot in cooking.
| AdmiralAsshat wrote:
| I started buying Kikkoman's "whole bean" soy sauce (I don't
| remember what it's called in Japanese: maroyaka?), because I
| found a local Asian mart carried it, and it was reasonably
| priced. Seems you can find it on Amazon these days, even:
|
| https://www.amazon.com/Kikkoman-Maroyaka-Sauce-33-8-Ounce-
| Pa...
|
| Haven't compared it side-by-side with the normal stuff, but
| anecdotally it tasted a little more mellow to my palette, and
| I will probably continue using it moving forward when my 1L
| bottle runs out.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| Not sure about using Heinz ketchup as an example. To me there
| are cheap ketchups that taste worse, and fancy yuppie
| ketchups that taste different for 2-5x the price, but nothing
| really tastes genuinely better.
|
| Ketchup is like a staple unobjectionable thing to stock in
| the fridge for kids/guests/comfort. Stocking a weird one kind
| of defeats the purpose.
|
| I'd rather try various steak / bbq / teriyaki / whatever
| sauces that set out to be categorically different.
| Spooky23 wrote:
| Yes! Heinz is coke. Hunts is Pepsi. Everything else is
| usually lesser.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| Yes for me theres a whole variety of low-brow staple
| packaged processed foods I think we've all sort of
| imprinted upon a certain flavor profile growing up.
|
| I'd rather explore entirely other flavors/categories than
| spend 4x on some fancy knockoff to signal I'm low brow
| high end. Extremely diminishing returns, and mostly just
| tastes different.
|
| I don't need a $4 replacement for a Coke or a $5 Mac-n-
| cheese or a $10 bottle of ketchup.
|
| Honestly we should all be buying less of these processed
| foods, not going further upmarket with them.
| badc0ffee wrote:
| Don't forget French's (is it the RC Cola of ketchups?)
| steveBK123 wrote:
| I never knew it and will immediately forget it lol
| Spooky23 wrote:
| YES!
|
| Citi Field used to serve French's. Which is odd because
| they were doing Mike's mustard... money talks I suppose.
|
| My son who was little was like "dad, there's something
| wrong with my hot dog." I tried it, and yes, something
| was terribly wrong. That stuff tastes like they put
| tomato flavor in strawberry jam.
| gullywhumper wrote:
| I haven't read this in a while, but remember this Malcom
| Gladwell article discussing why other ketchups haven't had
| much success:
|
| https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2004/09/06/the-ketchup-
| co...
| steveBK123 wrote:
| Great snippet -
|
| "The thing about Coke and Pepsi is that they are
| absolutely gorgeous," Judy Heylmun, a vice-president of
| Sensory Spectrum, Inc., in Chatham, New Jersey, says.
| "They have beautiful notes--all flavors are in balance.
| It's very hard to do that well. Usually, when you taste a
| store cola it's"-- and here she made a series of pik!
| pik! pik! sounds--"all the notes are kind of spiky, and
| usually the citrus is the first thing to spike out. And
| then the cinnamon. Citrus and brown spice notes are top
| notes and very volatile, as opposed to vanilla, which is
| very dark and deep. A really cheap store brand will have
| a big, fat cinnamon note sitting on top of everything."
| mkaic wrote:
| Here's an unpaywalled PDF I found of the same: https://la
| bs.la.utexas.edu/gilden/files/2016/04/theketchupco...
| educasean wrote:
| Person endorsement for Sir Kensington's ketchup. I find it
| to be a noticeable improvement over Heinz.
| jt2190 wrote:
| Kikkoman USA has been brewing a lighter soy sauce in Wisconsin
| for the U.S. market for a few decades while now. It's what most
| people in the U.S. think of when they hear "Kikkoman".
|
| Specialty markets sell imported Kikkoman products, such as
| "traditionally brewed" soy sauce which tastes stronger. Note
| that "stronger" doesn't mean "better": Asian consumers are used
| to using different styles of soy sauce as they see fit. U.S.
| consumers still largely view soy sauce as a single thing with
| no variation except maybe "low sodium". Definitely worth
| exploring the different varieties.
| skrtskrt wrote:
| Try Pearl River Bridge Light soy sauce. Is the default
| recommended light soy sauce for a lot of asian cooking, and
| easy to find.
|
| You'll like it better than the harsh flavor of Kikkoman
| forgotoldacc wrote:
| There's no one "traditional" soy sauce. It's kind of like wine.
| If you live your life only drinking sweet port wines straight
| from the bottle, you'll think a dry white wine is gross if you
| use it the same way. But if you're making a cream pasta or some
| sort of fish, you'll quickly realize white wine--and every wine
| --has its place.
|
| For example, I find kikkoman to be absolutely awful for fried
| rice. It has an oddly sharp taste that just doesn't work.
| Chinese soy sauces don't have that sharpness but have a very
| wide and smooth savoriness that works well with fried rice. But
| if you try Chinese soy sauce with sashimi, it tastes flat and
| very wrong. That sharpness of a Japanese soy sauce works
| better, and a high quality Japanese soy sauce has a milder
| sharpness that emphasizes the fish flavors but not so weak that
| it makes the flavor weird like a Chinese soy sauce would.
| SwtCyber wrote:
| Probably like tasting a whole different thing. Traditional soy
| sauce hits way differently, it's not just salty, it's got
| layers
| jihadjihad wrote:
| So is it like tamari? Seems to be made from fermented soybean
| paste, which is how tamari is made too (byproduct of miso paste).
|
| Most of the soy sauce you encounter in the US has wheat, while in
| Japan (and seemingly South Korea) there's no wheat added.
|
| Personally once I switched to tamari I never went back to
| "regular" soy sauce, the flavor is quite a bit richer and more
| versatile in cooking, in my opinion.
| alistairSH wrote:
| I was under the impression that traditional Japanese soy sauce
| (shoyu, not tamari) also contains wheat (close to 50/50 ratio)
| - it's used to help start the fermentation.
| mlinhares wrote:
| It does, when it doesn't that's when you call it tamari.
| AlotOfReading wrote:
| Tamari is "low wheat" rather than specifically "no wheat".
| Many manufacturers (particularly when selling to Western
| markets) will simply take the extra steps to expand the
| market.
| elhudy wrote:
| Eh, it depends what you mean by traditional. Ramen is
| "traditional" in japan, but it was invented in the early
| 1900s. Similarly, since wheat wasn't commonly imported into
| japan prior to the 1800s, most actually old tradition recipes
| didn't contain wheat either.
| least wrote:
| > Most of the soy sauce you encounter in the US has wheat,
| while in Japan (and seemingly South Korea) there's no wheat
| added.
|
| This is incorrect with regards to Japan. Shoyu is made with
| wheat. Tamari is not. Their production process is different.
|
| Kikkoman is the most popular brand in the West AND in Japan,
| which is a koikuchi shoyu, which is the "standard" shoyu type
| in Japan. It is made with wheat.
| lanfeust6 wrote:
| Yes, and Chinese "light soy" is also similar to shoyu.
| rjsw wrote:
| The Kikkoman gluten free variant is also labelled as tamari.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| For me I always have Kikkoman in the fridge (especially
| because thats what wife grew up with) as the staple soy
| sauce. I like to dabble in having 1-2 other variants in the
| fridge at once, but they can tend to have too strong a flavor
| for some peoples taste. Or certain variants are best with
| certain dishes, etc.
| molf wrote:
| This is the first time I hear about keeping soy sauce in
| the fridge. Is this common?
| alisonatwork wrote:
| I keep sweet soy like kecap manis and Jiang You Gao in
| the fridge because occasionally it can catch mold
| otherwise. I do the same with sweet vinegar like
| balsamic. However I think this depends a lot on how hot
| and humid your environment is. In cool and dry climates
| it's probably not necessary.
| divbzero wrote:
| Jiang You Gao = soy sauce paste
|
| It's one of my favorites. I try to find ones without much
| additives and refrigerate after opening to keep it fresh.
| NaOH wrote:
| Every soy sauce label I remember seeing has said,
| "Refrigerate after opening." I don't know why this seems
| to be rarely done (at least in the US).
| steveBK123 wrote:
| Yeah I just follow food safety instructions on packaging
| Ekaros wrote:
| I have feeling that I should do it. The difference
| between open bottle that have stayed outside and fresh
| bottle is pretty clear. Refrigeration would slow down any
| reactions and thus keep taste better longer.
| pcurve wrote:
| Good question... I think they're pretty different in taste and
| how they're made (which is why they taste so different)
|
| Miso and "dwen jang" taste very different because miso is
| usually mixed with soybean and rice, whereas dwen jang is all
| soybean. They are also aged differently. Miso is packed into
| more air tight container, whereas dwen jang is shaped into a
| block, hung outside to air dry.
| t3rra wrote:
| The block to hang up outside for air drying is called meju
| (meju) which is form before made into doenjang (dwenjang).
| There is more process involved to make it into dwenjang.
| Actually from that meju we make daenjang and soy sauce.
| unlikelytomato wrote:
| Don't forget the larva which is apparently a sign of a good
| meju. I wonder how many people can still put up with the
| smell of making it at home.
|
| I really need to learn to make doenjangjjigae at home. This
| thread reminded me how tasty it is.
| squidsoup wrote:
| I've really come to appreciate daenjang more than Japanese
| miso over time. It has funkier, earthier but arguably less
| refined taste than Japanese miso.
| thinkingtoilet wrote:
| Same. Tamari seems to have a much richer flavor than soy sauce.
| I would recommend others try it a replacement.
| bananalychee wrote:
| Western tastes favor intense flavors, so tamari may provide
| better balance than standard (koikuchi) soy sauce in that
| sense, but in Japanese cooking, "richness" is not necessarily
| a desirable characteristic, and tamari would overwhelm many
| dishes when substituted for koikuchi in similar amounts.
| Reprocessed (sai-shikomi) soy sauce, made by fermenting soy
| sauce twice, is considered a middle ground between koikuchi
| and tamari in terms of richness and is popular for dipping.
| But there is also a relatively wide range of flavor within
| the koikuchi category, and the US-made Kikkoman sauce that
| many people are familiar with is not very flavorful.
| throwaway2037 wrote:
| > Western tastes favor intense flavors
|
| What a ridiculous generalisation. Much of French and
| Italian cuisine is subtle in its flavourings. What about
| Sichuan or Korean spicy food? Some of that stuff can knock
| your socks off the flavours are so strong. And don't get me
| started about Malaysian or Indonesian food.
| bananalychee wrote:
| That's why I expressed a generalization and not a
| universal statement. You don't have to prop up a strawman
| to express disagreement.
| fermentation wrote:
| Once I had to switch to tamari due to a celiac diagnosis, I
| found it was one of the few things that actually tastes better
| without gluten. I think most of the world would enjoy soy sauce
| made without wheat more if they tried it.
|
| Also, most soy sauce in Japan absolutely has wheat
| unfortunately.
| tuna74 wrote:
| Almost all wheat based soy sauces has such a low gluten
| content that they can be seen as gluten free.
| throwaway2037 wrote:
| Would someone with gluten sensitivity agree with this
| statement?
| tuna74 wrote:
| This information comes from the Swedish food authority:
| https://www.livsmedelsverket.se/matvanor-halsa--
| miljo/sjukdo...
|
| My kid with Celiak disease eat "normal" soy sauces and
| have passed all test so far.
| squidsoup wrote:
| > Most of the soy sauce you encounter in the US has wheat,
| while in Japan (and seemingly South Korea) there's no wheat
| added.
|
| My favourite jang is made from fermented wheat and soy -
| chunjang. Chunjang is the star ingredient in one of the most
| delicious noodle dishes ever conceived, Jjajangmyeon.
| konfusinomicon wrote:
| buldak ramen introduced me to jjajang. I stir fry 1 of them
| and one 2x spicy together with green and yellow onion, red
| pepper, garlic, ginger, and whatever leftover protein I have
| from the week. top with some type of Lao Gan Ma and there is
| basically no reason to ever order takeout
| throwaway2037 wrote:
| If other readers are unfamiliar with "Lao Gan Ma", it is a
| brand of spicy and fermented pastes from Mainland China. I
| highly recommend them. Ref:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lao_Gan_Ma
| NelsonMinar wrote:
| Fermentation is such wonderful technology. It both preserves and
| makes things more delicious.
| carabiner wrote:
| It also makes things rotten. The difference between spoilage
| and fermentation/aging is whether humans like the result at the
| end.
| tough wrote:
| Same could be said of fire and burnt food
| dlisboa wrote:
| The difference is whether humans get ill or not.
| charcircuit wrote:
| People get ill from alcohol, yet it's called fermentation.
| algorias wrote:
| No, people get ill from _excessive quantities_ of
| alcohol.
| literalAardvark wrote:
| Acetaldehyde is always toxic, so no, they always get
| sick, just less sick.
| bobxmax wrote:
| Getting drunk is literally poisoning yourself. Some
| humans just happen to enjoy the symptoms of said poison.
| accrual wrote:
| Kind of reminds me of dolphins taking turns chewing on
| pufferfish, apparently for fun/altered states.
|
| https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/dolphins-seem-
| to-u...
| nitwit005 wrote:
| Most people aren't getting drunk every time they drink.
|
| Try wine and grape juice side by side. Baring truly awful
| wine, the wine will taste better (I suppose you could
| have awful grape juice too, but, you get the idea).
| bobxmax wrote:
| Sure, but if alcohol didn't get you drunk consumption
| would plummet 95%.
| OJFord wrote:
| I wouldn't be so sure... I'm certain my own would
| _increase_. (Assuming 'get you drunk' means something
| like 'contain ethanol' i.e. no 'buzz' or whatever but
| also no adverse effect on liver, the next day, ...).
|
| If you want a cold drink that isn't sweet, your choices
| are pretty much alcohol, alcohol-free alternative, water.
| alisonatwork wrote:
| Tea and coffee don't have to be sweet either, and there
| are lots of cold versions of those.
| kranner wrote:
| Also plenty of traditional cold drinks that are savoury
| or can be savoury: doogh, ayran, lassi, jaljeera,
| buttermilk, kvass
| aziaziazi wrote:
| I'll add legumes juices : both raw, fresh blend or the
| water from a soup that you separate and put in a fridge.
| Those are delicious.
|
| Kvaas contain alcohol, doesn't it?
| kranner wrote:
| > Kvaas contain alcohol, doesn't it?
|
| I think only as much as kombucha, not enough to cause a
| buzz
| thesz wrote:
| Of about kefir percentage. Kwas has 0.5-1.5% ABV, kefir
| has 0.02-2.0% ABV.
| OJFord wrote:
| I guess simply 'milk' I also missed, which is a bit sweet
| of course but I wasn't intending to lump it in with fruit
| juices and added-sugar drinks.
|
| I did almost mention jaljeera, but thought that might be
| a bit niche. It is also often sweetened though. I've
| never known not-sweet lassi though? Salted lassi is still
| sweet underneath, like salted caramel, ime. We could
| count it with the sweet-ish milk drinks, anyway.
| metaphor wrote:
| To be fair, the concept of iced tea as an objective
| desire is considered the provenance of blasphemous
| original sin by a not insignificant percentage of natives
| where the parent hails from.
| astura wrote:
| >If you want a cold drink that isn't sweet, your choices
| are pretty much alcohol, alcohol-free alternative, water.
|
| Uh, no.
|
| There's also seltzer, flavored seltzer, flavored water,
| iced tea, iced coffee, herbal infusions (like hibiscus,
| rooibos, honeybush, etc), broth, milk and plant based
| milk alternatives, and fermented drinks like kombucha +
| kefir. That's just off the top of my head.
|
| Hibiscus even has the benefit of helping regulate blood
| pressure.
|
| I almost never drink sweet drinks or plain water and
| rarely drink alcohol. My fluid consumption is almost
| entirely: hot tea, iced tea, kombucha, and hibiscus
| infusion. Sometimes seltzer. Sometimes coffee.
| nitwit005 wrote:
| That seems unlikely. Non alcoholic drinks are already an
| enormous market, and people would have less reason to
| limit consumption with the health downside removed.
| kranner wrote:
| Taste is subjective. To people not used to consuming any
| alcohol the wine might taste worse than plain grape
| juice.
| nitwit005 wrote:
| Sure, but it's a taste people have spent a couple
| thousand years working on, and it's remained popular
| through huge changes in culture and diet. People clearly
| like it.
| kranner wrote:
| Some people, sure, but not all people.
| SwtCyber wrote:
| Context and experience shape so much of how we taste
| things
| chamomeal wrote:
| Totally agree. I love beer. I just love it. I would drink
| beer all day if it didn't have that damned alcohol in it.
|
| I like alcohol too, but not nearly as much as I like
| beer. Kinda sounds nonsensical, but that's how I feel!
| ac29 wrote:
| > Try wine and grape juice side by side. Baring truly
| awful wine, the wine will taste better
|
| The unfermented juice of wine grapes has many
| similarities to the wine it would produce if fermented.
| "Grape juice" is usually pretty one note, just sweet.
| voidUpdate wrote:
| If you hate the taste of alcohol (like me), I think the
| grape juice would taste better
| astura wrote:
| I like beer and I think the taste of wine is absolutely
| vile.
| ljsprague wrote:
| The dose makes the poison.
| ceejayoz wrote:
| The line between spoiled and fermented... blurs, at times.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A1karl
| Carrok wrote:
| What point are you even trying to make? The difference
| between gone bad and fermented is pretty obvious, but fine,
| don't eat anything fermented if you like.
|
| I'll be over here enjoying cheese, kimchi, beer, miso,
| pickles, sauerkraut, etc etc etc
| soperj wrote:
| chocolate
| sho_hn wrote:
| TIL! I had no idea chocolate-making involves
| fermentation. Turns out fermenting the beans is highly
| involved in producing the characteristic flavor.
| bpicolo wrote:
| Coffee, similarly
| montebicyclelo wrote:
| > The difference between spoilage and fermentation/aging is
| whether humans like the result at the end
|
| Is not whether it makes humans unwell quite an important
| factor..
| GoatInGrey wrote:
| Liking the result at the end in a qualifier that
| encompasses "does not make me ill", "does not taste
| terrible", and various other factors.
| thebruce87m wrote:
| Edit: nvm
| nkrisc wrote:
| And veggies and meat begin decaying the moment they die. So
| what?
|
| The difference between spoilage and fermentation is whether
| it's spoiled.
| talkingtab wrote:
| What is fermentation really? It is a process whereby bacteria
| et al. process a food source, breaking it down. And the same
| process goes on inside your gut. Ouch, now there is spoilage
| for you!
|
| There is at least some research that says fermented foods
| have some benefits including reducing inflammation. My
| personal guess based on subjecting myself to more and more
| fermenting foods is that much of the obesity and many of the
| common health issues have to do with _not_ eating enough
| fermenting foods. Just a guess based on a sample of one.
| elhudy wrote:
| In the case of this style of korean soy sauce, it is
| actually fungal enzymes from molds that colonized the meju
| slowly breaking down the proteins and starches over time,
| whilst being protected from outside forces by high salinity
| water. I realize you said "et al." but I couldn't help
| myself. There's very little bacterial activity going on in
| there.
| Beijinger wrote:
| No, fermentation is a process of enzymatic transformation.
|
| Black tea is fermented, for example. No need for bacteria.
| aziaziazi wrote:
| I have to disagree: black tea only had an oxidation while
| _fermented_ tea had an oxidation plus a fermentation by
| microbial activity:
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermented_tea
|
| The term "fermentation" is very often used buy common
| language to describe both fungic and microbial activity.
| modo_mario wrote:
| AS far as downsides go. Don't koreans have a much higher
| incidence of bowl cancer due to a bad bacteria that can pop
| up during fermentation?
| bobsmooth wrote:
| So much of human society relies on the byproducts of other
| organisms. Pickles, bread, antibiotics.
| znt wrote:
| Yoghurt + Kefir + Kumis.
|
| Golden Horde conquered the known world fueled by milk
| byproducts.
| bigiain wrote:
| Surely alcohol is by far the biggest example.
| bobxmax wrote:
| Aside but I've always hated the phrase "known world". It
| means "known to the Europeans"
| 0_____0 wrote:
| I think in this instance it means "known to the Mongols"
| dismalaf wrote:
| "Known world" in the context of history usually means
| Eurasia + Africa. Basically all the places that aren't
| the new world and random islands in the middle of
| nowhere.
| SwtCyber wrote:
| It's kinda wild how fermentation does both - keeps food from
| going bad and somehow makes it taste better. Like, who figured
| that out and thought, "Yeah, let's just let this sit and see
| what happens"?
| agos wrote:
| "let's make this stuff go bad, but in a good way" and somehow
| humans created cheese, soy sauce, wine, bread, pickles,
| chocolate...
| ljf wrote:
| Isn't it more 'let's store this surplus' - then 'oh man it
| looks and smells different now but somehow better'.
|
| For example cheese was likely discovered when people tried
| transporting milk in water carrying bags made from sheep
| stomachs. While carrying water in them would be fine,
| putting milk in there for a couple of unrefrigerated days
| would lead to cheese from the rennet in sheep's stomach
| that would stay on in the vessel, even after it has been
| cleaned and even dried.
|
| Same with wine - let's store some fruit juices - it is
| pretty hard NOT to make wine unless you know about
| pasteurisation, and even if you do boil it, there are so
| many natural yeasts just ready to make wine.
|
| Grains that get wet actively want to produce beer :)
|
| Wholemeal flour is chock full of wild yeasts, and wants to
| become a sourdough starter if you just give it a little
| water and time.
| NelsonMinar wrote:
| Arguably our tastes evolved or adapted to enjoy the flavors
| of fermentation. And it's not universal: a lot of people
| don't like the smell of cheese, or natto, or even cucumber
| pickles. I love them all!
| kunwon1 wrote:
| I got into making hot sauces recently. I didn't really care for
| any of the results until I started fermenting them. Chop up
| ingredients, add brine, put everything in a jar with a
| fermentation lid that allows gas to escape. Then let it sit on
| the counter for a week or two. blend and maybe add a bit of
| vinegar. That's the basic process, and in my humble opinion,
| it's the absolute best way to make hot sauce
|
| (YMMV, do your own research, there are obviously risks to
| letting food sit out at room temperature for two weeks)
| jmyeet wrote:
| So let me take a detour that I promise will get back to the soy
| sauce.
|
| Recently New York Magazine came out with an article about so-
| called "West Village girls" [1]. For anyone unfamiliar, the West
| Village (and Greenwich Village more broadly) is a part of
| Manhattan below 14th street that had huge cultural significance
| int eh 20th century. Many musicians, artists and luminaries lived
| there for a time. It was the home of the Stonewall riots [2] and
| is otherwise important to LGTBQ culture.
|
| The West Village girl is pretty much the opposite of all those
| things. Basic, typically white, posts on IG that "I can't live
| without my Starbuck's", dresses generically, is chasing her Sex
| and the City dream, is likely supported by her parents in her 20s
| after graduating college (if not outright having a trust fund)
| and probably has hobbies like "travel" and "eating out".
|
| There is a long history of a certain kind of (typically white)
| people who are devoid of "culture" and move to a place and make
| it worse by not respecting that culture, like moving above a
| Mexican restaurant or a bar that's been there for 40 years and
| geting it shut down for noise. That sort of thing.
|
| This segment is typically obsessed with finding "the best",
| seeing and being seen at the "best" or just the "hippest" places
| and so on.
|
| I saw a thing recently about people who travel for an hour plus
| to find the "best" New York slice. The particular creator
| explained that these chasers just don't get the point. The point
| is that you can get good slices pretty much anywhere in NYC. It's
| ubiquitous. You just don't need to line up for 2 hours at some
| hole-in-the-wall in Queens or whatever.
|
| And now I'll bring it back to soy sauce.
|
| This seems to fit this obsession of finding or having "the best".
| For me, the difference between "good" and "the best" for pretty
| much anything is so marginal that it's never worth paying a huge
| premium, going terribly out of your way and/or waiting for a long
| time. That goes for restaurants, food items, wine and pretty much
| anything.
|
| But every time I see people who obsess over "the best" it always
| strikes me as so sad, like these chasers just have to have the
| external validation of being "in the club". I particularly see
| this with people who are obsessed with Japan, like they look for
| the absolute best sushi, omikase or whatever but again, I think
| the point of Japan is you can find good of anything Japanese
| everywhere, because it's Japan.
|
| I'm happy there are craftsmen who take pride in their craft and
| their output, be they Japanese teapot makers, calligraphy brush
| makers or soy sauce producers. And if you get a chance to try
| such things and appreciate their craft, great. But chasing it
| always seems so empty.
|
| [1]: https://www.thecut.com/article/nyc-west-village-
| neighborhood...
|
| [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stonewall_riots
| cko wrote:
| I'm a huge proponent of "good enough" in all aspects of my life
| so I fully agree. A two-year old used flagship phone is good
| enough. A cheap Thinkpad is good enough. Most clothes actually
| actually last a long time, even the cheap ones.
|
| Anything above "pretty good at a reasonable price" has
| diminishing returns, and it attracts many of the people for
| whom vanity is the main source of enjoyment.
| badc0ffee wrote:
| "typically white" - the artists and gay men living in the area
| 60-30 years ago were "typically white" too. Same with the
| wealthy middle aged people who moved in 30 years ago and are
| being replaced with this new, young, temporary crowd.
|
| > There is a long history of a certain kind of (typically
| white) people who are devoid of "culture" and move to a place
| and make it worse by not respecting that culture, like moving
| above a Mexican restaurant or a bar that's been there for 40
| years and geting it shut down for noise. That sort of thing.
|
| That Mexican restaurant you're imagining probably replaced an
| Italian grocery or a Jewish deli, or something else. The
| demographics change, and that's how the city works.
|
| The "culture" of the West Village has been wealth and high end
| retail for 30 years. What happened recently is it got younger,
| even more homogeneous, and to your point, influencer focused.
| And I agree that THAT is insidious. Life is not a checklist of
| the top restaurants and bars, as selected by 23 year old women.
| Loudergood wrote:
| I'd argue that gay men and artists are more likely to be
| atypically white.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| This is entirely a result of where you hang out.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| WV at least had some unique shops as recently as 10-15 years
| ago. It then went through its period of high end blight and
| finally the end state of most VHCOL urban retail.. the same
| 50 fancy brand stores owned by the same 10 conglomerates that
| you see in every rich hood globally.
|
| It's all so boring.
| colechristensen wrote:
| Many take pleasure in excellence, in whatever form. "The best"
| is in reality pretty ambiguous and subject to short term trends
| that will get you long lines and that trend chasing can be
| hollow, but I'm sorry I really strongly disagree about the
| difference between "good" and "excellent" in many things I've
| found.
| jmyeet wrote:
| I hear you. Part of my comment was about appreciating
| excellencce or a craft. But there's a difference between the
| ego and burning need for external validation for having
| partaken in something, gone somewhere, gotten into something
| or whatever vs appreciating someone's dedication and product.
|
| Consider the people who go to Santorini to take the exact
| same photo, the vanity climbs of Mount Everest or going to
| some three Michelin star restaurant where your primary
| concern is posting about it on IG.
|
| It all just seems so... desperate. Like hollow people trying
| to fill thsemvels with something, anything, so they can feel
| something and that something is simply the envy of other
| equally hollow people.
|
| I might even call these "experience vampires". There's a
| difference between that and appreciation.
|
| Take this soy sauce maker, the people I'm talking about will
| buy a bottle of soy sauce and then post all about it on
| social media. Others might talk to the master crafter about
| their history, how they got started, what they think goes
| into a good soy sauce, etc. Do you see what I mean?
|
| I'm not normally one for stoicism. I tend to find people who
| crow about Marcus Aurelius tend to be at the entry for the
| alt-right pipeline more often than not. But in this case, I
| seem to find myself siding with the stoics.
| colechristensen wrote:
| >burning need for external validation
|
| Eh, being an "influencer" is kinda dumb, but your
| estimations of the motivation of people who post a lot on
| social media might be exaggerated.
|
| The best sushi restaurant in town doesn't have any more or
| less quality because people make a lot of instagram posts
| about it.
|
| Annoying people liking a thing doesn't ruin it. Just don't
| pay attention to them and don't worry about what they're
| doing.
|
| If you don't like how people are spending their lives give
| them less head space, don't spend too much time judging
| them, classifying them, or trying to fix the social ills
| causing their existence.
| __aru wrote:
| > But every time I see people who obsess over "the best" it
| always strikes me as so sad, like these chasers just have to
| have the external validation of being "in the club".
|
| In my opinion, I think that looking for "the best" is perfectly
| fine for things you care about or use frequently.
|
| It's when people try to find "the best" for everything that it
| becomes unhealthy.
| steveBK123 wrote:
| Yes, I'm at the point in my life where for 99% of food..
| waiting 1 hour in a line completely ruins any potential "best-
| ness" of said food item.
|
| There's so many great examples of so many foods. There is no
| objective best. Even if there are consensus bests.. it doesn't
| mean my tastes align with consensus. Consensus is just an
| average of the crowd. Look at ice cream.. vanilla is generally
| the top ranked flavor in various lists. Likely it's that most
| people have a handful of favorite flavors, and vanilla is in
| everyone's rotation. Not that it is everyones number one.
|
| And again, in a city like NYC where theres dozens of pizza
| shops on various "top 10" lists, waiting in hours in a line for
| the latest/greatest fad slice shows a lack of productive
| hobbies.
|
| I live in walking distance of a variety of shops listed on
| these lists, but I order from the one that delivers. It's just
| pizza, it's not worth 2 hours of my life even if it were free,
| which it is not.
| retinaros wrote:
| I will never understand how people have the guts to racially
| profile white people and at the same time call someone a racist
| for doing that with non white people. its just intellectually
| dishonest...but maybe I am not american..
|
| you would need to eat soy sauce a lot of times to be able to
| say when its good vs bad. it has a lot of complexity like wine.
| and its craft has a lot of similarities too. I highly doubt
| this woman would rank in the best soysauce of this world. the
| way she does it seems pretty much like korean homemade from a
| few decades ago which is amazing still but the craft of soy
| sauce goes much deeper with lot of wine-like technology too.
| https://youtu.be/MKbRu3_Ynpk?si=PPRJMohg9AUWnTyv this one would
| be an accurate depiction of what I mean
| jmyeet wrote:
| "Whiteness" isn't a race. It's a social construct invented to
| justify slavery. It's a subjective reflection of who holds
| power and who is in the in group. The definition of who is
| white and who isn't has been subjective and has changed over
| time. Thomas Jefferson, for example, didn't consider Germans
| or Italians "white" (he called Germans "swarthy"). Congress
| passed a law over 100 years ago to declare Arabs "white". The
| Irish are now considered "white" where they once were not.
|
| Also, I'm completely fine about making certain statements
| notihng race. For example: the victims of police violence are
| predominantly, or at least disproportionately, black.
|
| In the case of NYC in general, and the West Village in
| particular, the long-term residents skew to minorities and
| those that displace them are typically white, like 23 year
| olds that somehow afford an $8,000/month WV apartment, which
| itself is an artifact of generational wealth built on racial
| discrimination.
| retinaros wrote:
| we both now you not completely fine about it. the stat you
| shared just exemplify that. you likely would mute someone
| using your playbook to share crime rate per capita. and
| whiteness being a construct to justify slavery when arab
| world slavery far outpaced it and still exist today is
| another example of dishonesty.
| archagon wrote:
| jmyeet didn't just make this up, you can read about it
| here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_people#Modern_r
| acial_hie...
| alisonatwork wrote:
| I can't speak to this particular NYC subculture, but it is
| definitely the case that all round the world long lines form
| around "the best" version of a thing even when it is literally
| the same thing you can get at a half dozen vendors on the same
| block. Some of the people in line may be tourists, but there
| are also plenty of local people who just enjoy the hustle and
| bustle. There are people who really do find pleasure in being
| part of something popular, doesn't even matter the intrinsic
| quality, what matters is the hype. If they chase that
| experience, who cares? It doesn't affect your life. Even if
| they overrun your daily haunt, just go to the next one down the
| street, since it didn't matter anyway. It seems to me there are
| much worse things to worry about than people who get a thrill
| out of waiting in line.
| dyauspitr wrote:
| Honestly the difference between best and good is purely
| subjective and mostly a function of hype. With a lot of things
| best and good can't be told apart in a blind taste test.
| ge96 wrote:
| It's interesting they mention charcoal purification, there is
| this plant that Japanese people eat (like wild green tubes with
| leaves) and they soak it in water with wood ash from a fire.
| vasusen wrote:
| I believe (more likely, chatgpt believes) this plant is Warabi.
| I didn't know it was processed with charcoal purification!
|
| The process sounds similar to how I use something acidic to
| process the toxins from Taro leaves before eating them.
| ge96 wrote:
| Yeah that looks right, long tubes. Another one I see a guy
| foraging/eating is a big leaf called "strawberry something"
| and he batters it up/fries it, interesting.
| bigiain wrote:
| > I believe (more likely, chatgpt believes)
|
| Possibly the most depressing thing I've read all week...
| :sigh:
| vasusen wrote:
| Sorry instead of "googling" this plant up, I used ChatGPT
| to tell me candidates on what this plant might be.
| esperent wrote:
| Just don't tell people where you got the info until it's
| normalized to ask AIs.
|
| Honestly, while LLMs hallucinate, they still return more
| reliable info than using Google and getting the info from
| an SEO spam blog post that played Chinese whispers with
| already wrong info from ten other blogs.
|
| The only difference is that using Google is normalized,
| so you wouldn't have felt the need to announce it.
|
| Of course, unless you personally feel the info is
| reliable, you probably shouldn't post it no matter where
| you got it from.
| foobarian wrote:
| It's like a hash table. You get a result quick, but you
| still have to check that the key is actually equal to
| what you asked for.
| bigiain wrote:
| > getting the info from an SEO spam blog post that played
| Chinese whispers with already wrong info from ten other
| blogs.
|
| Didn't you just perfectly describe the ChatGPT training
| set?
| konfusinomicon wrote:
| I delved into the world of soy sauce a few years back and id say
| if your looking to go beyond kikkoman, or god forbid that swill
| they call la choy, go for kimlan. super special, I-Jen (for
| something a little different), light, or aged..pearl river bridge
| isn't too bad either just watch out for brands with a bunch of
| added chemicals in the ingredients
| getnormality wrote:
| Pearl River Bridge has a seasoned soy sauce that's been my
| constant for over a decade.
| eth0up wrote:
| La choy is to soy sauce what Maruchen is to real ramen or Kraft
| to French cheese. Try San J, available in most 'health'
| grocers, eg Food Hole, Sprouts, etc. it's not fine, but it's
| good.
| metaphor wrote:
| > _La choy is to soy sauce what Maruchen is to real ramen_
|
| Oh come on now, surely Maruchan deserves a bit more
| credit...at the very least, no one is breaking the bank while
| desecrating their soul.
|
| In contrast, at my local Walmart, a 15-oz bottle of La Choy
| is priced +50% higher than its (subjectively superior)
| Kikkoman alternative of the same size!
| eth0up wrote:
| I'm enjoying the throes of salmonella presently and it all
| seems unappealing. The fucking pain. But even in this
| wretched state, I have some memory of desire for Paldo, but
| none for Maruchan.
|
| Yeah, I'm in genuine agony, probably preparing to puke from
| all holes, and I'm reading HN... while writhing and
| moaning.
|
| I guess you could say I'm sick. And so is la choy
| rustcleaner wrote:
| Will vouch for Kimlan, my late mother's favorite!
| SwtCyber wrote:
| Once you step outside the usual suspects like Kikkoman, there's
| a whole world of nuance out there.
| gniv wrote:
| Which prepared foods show off the qualities of the soy sauce
| best?
|
| I feel like in most of my cooking the soy sauce is overpowered.
| throwaway2037 wrote:
| This is a good question. I would offer that there are at
| least two major types of soy sauce: light and dark. They are
| used in a variety of ways in Northeast Asian cooking
| (Mainland China, Koreas, Japan, Taiwan, Hongkong, Macao). For
| example, when you steam a fish (southern Chinese/Canto
| style), you use a combination of light and dark soy sauces.
| (I have no idea why, but this is a traditional recipe taught
| to me years ago.) Soy sauce has two primary "taste"
| components (previously I discussed visual components): (a)
| the fermented soy beans and (b) the umami (MSG/monosodium
| glutamate). Even if you feel like (a) is overwhelmed by your
| cooking, it is still enhanced by (b) which, for most people,
| makes any savory food taste more appealing.
|
| For me, nothing beats raw fish (sashimi or sushi) as a taste
| test for a soy sauce, but I frequently use a mixture with
| Japanese ponzu... so ignore any expertise that I have on the
| matter! I am sure that _each_ culinary region in Northeast
| Asia will have a different answer. You could probably
| interview 100 chefs from the region and get 25 different
| answers.
|
| Lastly, there is a third type of soy sauce used in Southeast
| Asia called sweet soy sauce, or kecap manis in Bahasa
| Melayu/Indonesia.
| unwind wrote:
| Surely, "salt" has to be mentioned when talking about the
| primary taste components of soy? Normal soy is around 17%
| salt, which is a lot and really plays a part, in my
| opinion.
| dismalaf wrote:
| Soy sauce is meant to largely replace the salt component
| of your dish. If you're using so much that it's
| particularly salty, you're using too much.
|
| Way back in the day, when salt was scarce and expensive,
| the whole point of stuff like fish sauce, miso, soy
| sauce, etc... was to provide salt but also cut it by
| adding other ingredients.
| gniv wrote:
| Oh, sweet soy sauce is a thing in Asia? I thought it was a
| French invention (all restaurants here give you both savory
| and sweet soy sauce).
|
| Also I just had gyozas with Lee Kum Kee light soy sauce and
| thought it's a good test for it.
| kunwon1 wrote:
| Kecap manis is delicious, I get the ABC brand. It's as
| thick as molasses. Wonderful drizzled over some chicken
| rice
| konfusinomicon wrote:
| plain white rice is a good vessel
| exhilaration wrote:
| _or god forbid that swill they call la choy_
|
| An interesting note: La Choy is synthetically fermented
| (whatever what means!) and is usually the only alcohol-free
| option for those with medical or religious restrictions on the
| consumption of alcohol. Soy sauce is specifically listed as
| something recovering alcoholics taking Antabuse should avoid
| [1], though I've read it only rarely triggers any reaction. But
| there is a sometimes a reason for La Choy!
|
| [1] https://advantagetherapy.com.au/the-impact-of-antabuse-on-
| al...
| konfusinomicon wrote:
| yikes, antabuse users I'll give a sympathetic pass, but if
| whatever god one prays to condemns its followers to a life to
| salty water+caramel coloring condiments, all believers must
| collectively come together in songs of praise to request a
| slight rule change.
| arunabha wrote:
| Lots of good recommendations here, but I'll add mine which is
| Zhongba 1 year fermented light soy sauce. The long fermentation
| time and the addition of a specific white mushroom (Kou Mo
| (koumo)) gives it a somewhat unique deep flavour without too much
| saltiness.
|
| Great for dishes where the primary taste is from the soy sauce.
| eth0up wrote:
| For over a decade I used Yamasa exclusively. It's pretty typical
| soy sauce, but it's 1) brewed in Japan, 2) has no preservatives
| other than alcohol.
|
| I know there are superior versions, but one should never be
| sorely disappointed with Yamasa.
|
| In this new economy, I've adjusted my standards so that I still
| have something to put the soy sauce on, and have been giving
| Marca Pina (Philippines) a go. Not bad, but contains
| preservatives.
|
| I've never had true artisan soy sauce and suspect I never will.
| But used skillfully, amazing work can be done with Yamasa.
|
| Treacherous Joe's, a decade or so ago, had a pure Japanese soy
| sauce, but at some point cheapened it with vinegar, albeit a
| negligible amount.
|
| Open to suggestions that don't require being involved in the
| black budget.
| SwtCyber wrote:
| Food isn't just about taste... it's memory, tradition, and
| identity all wrapped up in something you can smell and hold. What
| Ki Soon-do's doing isn't just making soy sauce, it's carrying
| centuries of Korean culture in every jar. It's the kind of craft
| that comes from generations of hands, instincts, and care, and
| not something you can automate or rush.
| pizza wrote:
| ChatGPT, is that you?
| throwaway2037 wrote:
| Yeah, I had the same uncanny valley feeling when I read this
| phrase: "carrying centuries of Korean culture in every jar".
| What next: Recommended that we "delve" into the history of
| soy sauce production?
| jacknews wrote:
| "Ki Soon-do's soy sauce has been served to Donald Trump "
|
| lol, not someone I associate with refined tastes.
| diffeomorphism wrote:
| https://www.seriouseats.com/do-you-know-your-soy-sauces-japa...
|
| There are lots of different types of soy sauce catering to
| different uses.
| bookofjoe wrote:
| Ohsawa Nama Shoyu has been my go-to for decades
|
| https://www.amazon.com/Gold-Mine-Natural-Food-Co/dp/B0019LA7...
| archagon wrote:
| Ditto: have yet to find something for everyday use that tastes
| better to my palate, even when compared to higher end sauces.
|
| Their mirin is quite good, too.
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