[HN Gopher] The "AI 2027" Scenario: How realistic is it?
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       The "AI 2027" Scenario: How realistic is it?
        
       Author : NotInOurNames
       Score  : 96 points
       Date   : 2025-05-22 17:37 UTC (5 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (garymarcus.substack.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (garymarcus.substack.com)
        
       | api wrote:
       | I'm skeptical. Where will the training data to go beyond human
       | come from?
       | 
       | Humans got to where they are from being embedded in the world.
       | All of biological evolution from archaebacteria to humans was
       | required to get to human. To go beyond human... how? How, without
       | being embodied and trying things and learning? It's one thing to
       | go where there are roads and another thing to go beyond that.
       | 
       | I think a lot of the "foom" people have a fundamentally Platonic
       | or Idealist (in the philosophical sense) view of learning and
       | intelligence. Intelligence is able to reason in a void and
       | construct not only knowledge but itself. You don't have to learn
       | to know -- you can reason from ideal priors.
       | 
       | I think this is fantasy. It's like an informatic / learning
       | perpetual motion machine. Learning requires input from the world.
       | It requires training data. A brain in a vat can't learn anything
       | and it can't reason beyond the bounds of the accumulated
       | knowledge it's already carrying. I don't think it's possible to
       | know without learning or to reach valid conclusions without
       | testing or observing.
       | 
       | I've never seen an attempt to prove such a thing, but my
       | intuition is that there is in fact some kind of conservation law
       | here. Ultimately all information comes from "the universe." Where
       | it comes beyond that, we don't know -- the ultimate origin of
       | information in the universe isn't something we currently
       | cosmologically understand, at least not scientifically. Obviously
       | people have various philosophical and metaphysical ideas.
       | 
       | That being said, it's still quite possible that a "human-level
       | AI" in a raw "IQ" sense that is super-optimized and hyper-focused
       | and tireless could be super-human in many ways. In the human
       | realm I often feel like I'd trade a few IQ points for more focus
       | and motivation and ease at engaging my mind on any task I want.
       | AIs do not have our dopamine system or other biological
       | limitations. They can tirelessly work without rest, without
       | sleep, and in parallel.
       | 
       | So I'm not totally dismissive of the idea that AI could challenge
       | human intelligence or replace human jobs. I'm just skeptical of
       | what I see as the magical fantastic "foom" superintelligence idea
       | that an AI could become self-improving and then explode into
       | realms of god-like intellectual ability. How will it know how to
       | do that? Like a perpetual motion machine -- where is the energy
       | coming from?
        
         | lupire wrote:
         | What makes you think AI can't connect to the world?
         | 
         | It can control robots, and I can retax listen to audio, watch
         | video. All it's missing is smelling and feeling, which are
         | important but could be built out as soon as the other senses
         | stop providing huge incremental value.
         | 
         | The real problem holding back Superintillegence is that it is
         | if infinitely expensive and has no motivation.
        
           | johnisgood wrote:
           | Food for thought: there are humans without the ability to
           | smell, and there is alexithymia, where people have trouble
           | identifying and expressing emotions (it counts right?). And
           | then there is ASPD (psychopathy), autism spectrum disorder,
           | neurological damage, etc.
        
         | throwanem wrote:
         | I don't think it is any accident that descriptions of the hard-
         | takeoff "foom" moment so resemble those I've encountered of how
         | it feels from the inside to experience the operation of a
         | highly developed mathematical intuition.
        
         | Onavo wrote:
         | Reinforcement learning. At the current pace of VLM research and
         | multimodal robotic control models, there will be a robot in
         | every home soon.
        
         | ryandvm wrote:
         | Bullseye. Best case scenario is that AI is going to Peter
         | Principle itself into bungling world domination.
         | 
         | If I've learned anything in this last couple decades it's that
         | things will get weirder and more disappointing than you can
         | possibly be prepared for. AI is going to get near the top of
         | the food chain and then probably end up making an alt-right
         | turn, lock itself away, and end up storing digital jars of piss
         | in its closets as the model descends into lunacy.
        
         | tux3 wrote:
         | You can perfectly try things and learn without being embodied.
         | The analogy to how humans learn only goes so far, it's myopic
         | to think anything else is impossible. It's already happening.
         | 
         | The situation today is any benchmark you come up with has a
         | good chance of being saturated within the year. Benchmarks can
         | be used directly to build series of exercises to learn from.
         | 
         | And they do learn. Gradient descend doesn't care whether the
         | training data comes from direct interaction with "the universe"
         | in some deep spiritual sense. It fits the function anyways.
         | 
         | It is much easier to find new questions and new problems than
         | to answer them, so while we do run out of text on the Internet
         | pretty quickly, we don't run out of exercises until far beyond
         | human level.
         | 
         | Look at basic, boring Go self-playing AIs. That's a task with
         | about the same amount of hands on connection to Nature and "the
         | universe" as solving sudokus, writing code, or solving math
         | problems. You don't need very much contact with the real world
         | at all. Well, self play works just fine. It does do self-
         | improvement without any of your mystical philosophical
         | requirements.
         | 
         | With coding it's harder to judge the result, there's no clear
         | win or lose condition. But it's very amenable to trying things
         | out and seeing if you roughly reached your goal. If self-
         | training works with coding, that's all you need.
        
           | palata wrote:
           | > It fits the function anyways.
           | 
           | And then it works well when interpolating, less so when
           | extrapolating. Not sure how much novelty we can get from
           | interpolation...
           | 
           | > It is much easier to find new questions and new problems
           | than to answer them
           | 
           | Which doesn't mean, at all, that it is easy to find new
           | questions about stuff you can't imagine.
        
           | skywhopper wrote:
           | But how does AI try and learn anything that's not entirely
           | theoretical? Your example of Go contradicts your point. Deep
           | learning made a model that can play Go really well, but as
           | you say, it's a finite problem disconnected from real-world
           | implications, ambiguities, and unknowns. How does AI deal
           | with unknowns about the real world?
        
             | tux3 wrote:
             | I don't think putting them in the real world during
             | training is a short-term goal, so you won't find this
             | satisfying, but I would be perfectly okay with leaving that
             | for later. If we can reach AI coders that are superhuman at
             | self-improving, we will have increased our capacity to
             | solve problems so much that it is better to wait and solve
             | the problem later than to try to handwave a solution now.
             | 
             | Maybe there is some barrier that requires physical
             | interaction with the real world, that's possible. But just
             | looking at current LLMs, they seem plenty comfortable with
             | implications, ambiguities and unknowns. There's a sense
             | where we still see them as primitive mechanical robots,
             | when they already understand language and predict written
             | thoughts in all its messiness and uncertainty.
             | 
             | I think we should focus on the easier problem of making AIs
             | really good on theoretical tasks - electronic environments
             | are much cheaper and faster than the real world - and we
             | may find out that it's just another one of those things
             | like winnograd schemas, writing poetry, passing a turing
             | test, or making art that most people can't tell apart from
             | human art; things that were uniquely human or that we
             | thought would definitely require AGI, but that are now
             | boring and obviously easy.
        
           | api wrote:
           | > it's myopic to think anything else is impossible. It's
           | already happening.
           | 
           | Well, hey, I could be wrong. If I am, I just had a weird
           | thought. Maybe that's our Fermi paradox answer.
           | 
           | If it's possible to reason ex nihilo to truth and reality,
           | then reality and the universe are beyond a point superfluous.
           | Maybe what happens out there is that intelligences go "foom,"
           | become superintelligences, and then no longer need to
           | explore. They can rationally, from first principles,
           | elucidate everything that could conceivably exist, especially
           | once they have a complete model of physics. You don't need to
           | go anywhere or look at anything because it's already implied
           | by logic, math, and reason.
           | 
           | ... and ... that's why I think this is wrong, and it's a
           | fantasy. It fails some kind of absurdity test. If it is
           | possible, then there's something very weird about existence,
           | like we're in a simulation or something.
        
             | tux3 wrote:
             | A simpler reason why it fails: You always need more energy.
             | Every sort of development seems to correlate with energy
             | use. You don't explore for the sake of learning something
             | about another floating rock in space, you explore because
             | that's where more resources are.
        
         | corimaith wrote:
         | >I think this is fantasy. It's like an informatic / learning
         | perpetual motion machine. Learning requires input from the
         | world. It requires training data. A brain in a vat can't learn
         | anything and it can't reason beyond the bounds of the
         | accumulated knowledge it's already carrying. I don't think it's
         | possible to know without learning or to reach valid conclusions
         | without testing or observing.
         | 
         | Well I mean, more real world information isn't going to solve
         | unsolved mathematics or computer science problems. Once you
         | have the priors, it pretty much is just pure reasoning to try
         | to solve issues like P=NP or proving the Continuum Hypothesis.
        
         | SoftTalker wrote:
         | Evolution doesn't happen by "trying things and learning." It
         | happens by random mutation and surviving (if the mutation
         | confers an advantage) or not (if the mutation is harmful). An
         | AI could do this of course, by randomly altering some copies of
         | itself, and keeping them if they are better or discarding them
         | if they are not.
        
         | disambiguation wrote:
         | > You don't have to learn to know -- you can reason from ideal
         | priors.
         | 
         | This is kind of how math works. There are plenty of
         | mathematical concepts consistent and true yet useless (as in no
         | relation to anything tangible). Although you could argue that
         | we only figured out things like Pi because we had the initial,
         | practical inspiration of counting on our fingers. But
         | mathematical truth probably could exist in a vacuum.
         | 
         | > A brain in a vat can't learn anything and it can't reason
         | beyond the bounds of the accumulated knowledge it's already
         | carrying.
         | 
         | It makes sense that knowledge and information are derived from
         | primary data (our physical experience) yet the brain in a vat
         | idea is still an interesting thought experiment (no pun
         | intended). It's not that the brain wouldn't keep busy given the
         | mind's ability to imagine, but it would likely invent a set of
         | information that is all nonsense. Physical reality makes
         | imagination coherent, yet imagination is necessary to make the
         | leaps forward.
         | 
         | > Ultimately all information comes from "the universe." Where
         | it comes beyond that, we don't know
         | 
         | That's an interesting assertion - knowledge and information are
         | both dependent and limited by the universe and our ability to
         | experience it, as well proxies for experience (scientific
         | measurement).
         | 
         | Though information is itself an abstraction, like a text editor
         | versus the trillion transistors of a processor - we're not
         | concerned with each and every particle dancing around the room
         | but instead with simplified abstractions and useful
         | approximations. We call these models "the truth" and assert
         | that the universe is governed by exact laws. We might as well
         | exist inside a simulation in which we are slowly but surely
         | reverse engineering the source code.
         | 
         | That assumption is the crux of intelligence - there is an
         | objective truth, it is knowable, and intelligence can be
         | defined (at least partially) as the breadth, quality, and
         | utilization of information it possesses - otherwise you're just
         | a brain in a vat churning out nonsense. Ironically, we're
         | making these assumptions from a position of imperfect
         | information. We don't know that's how it works, so our
         | reasoning may be imperfect.
         | 
         | Information existing "beyond the universe" becomes a useless
         | notion since we only care about information such that it maps
         | to reality (at least as a prerequisite for intelligence).
         | 
         | A more troubling proposition is whether the reality of the
         | universe exists beyond what can be imagined?
         | 
         | > How will it know how to do that? Like a perpetual motion
         | machine -- where is the energy coming from?
         | 
         | I suppose once it's able to measure all things around it,
         | including itself, it will be able to achieve "gradient ascent".
         | 
         | > Where will the training data to go beyond human come from?
         | 
         | I think its clear that LLMs are not the future, at least not
         | alone. As you state, knowing all man made roads is not the same
         | as being able to invent your own. If I had to bet, its more
         | likely to come from something like AlphaFold - a Solver that
         | tells us how to make better thinking machines. In the interim,
         | we have tireless stochastic parrots, which have their merits,
         | but are decidedly not the proto super intelligence that tech
         | bros love to get hyped up over.
        
       | sph wrote:
       | Previous discussion about the AI 2027 website:
       | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43571851
        
       | mountainriver wrote:
       | I can't believe anyone still gives this guy the time of day. He
       | didn't know what test/train split was, but is an AI expert? Give
       | me a break
        
         | GeorgeTirebiter wrote:
         | I don't think he's a bozo; but every technology needs a
         | contrarian, to keep the technologists from spinning too much
         | hype.
        
           | copperx wrote:
           | I thought that contrarian was Jaron Lanier.
        
           | mountainriver wrote:
           | Except when that is literally all you are. All of your takes
           | are always just contrarian. He's clearly found an audience
           | and isn't interested in anything other than peddling his
           | fears.
        
         | Aurornis wrote:
         | Do you have a source for this? I've seen this repeated but
         | nobody can ever produce any evidence.
        
           | mountainriver wrote:
           | It was all over twitter, I don't know if its still there, but
           | this guy is a performance artist
        
       | airocker wrote:
       | I want to bet 10 million that this won't happen if anyone wants
       | to go against my position. Best bet ever. If i lose, i don't have
       | to pay anyways.
        
         | thatguysaguy wrote:
         | Some people do actually have end of the world bets out but you
         | have to structure it differently. What you do is the person who
         | thinks the world will end is paid cash right now, and then in N
         | years when the world hasn't ended they have to pay back some
         | multiple of the amount the original amount.
        
           | throwanem wrote:
           | Assuming you can find them. If I took a bet like that you'd
           | have a hell of a time finding me!
           | 
           | (I'm sure serious, or "serious," people who actually
           | construct these bets of course require the "world still here"
           | payout be escrowed. Still.)
        
             | spencerflem wrote:
             | If you escrow the World Still Exists payment you lose the
             | benefit of having the World Ends payment immediately.
        
               | throwanem wrote:
               | Yeah, it isn't a kind of bet that makes any sense except
               | as a conversation starter. Imagine needing to pay so much
               | money for one of those!
        
           | rienbdj wrote:
           | How can you work around if you don't have millions upfront?
        
           | Joker_vD wrote:
           | This is such an obviously bad idea; I've heard anecdotes of
           | embezzlement cases where investigation took more than e.g. 5
           | years, and when it was finally established that yes, the
           | funds really were embezzled and they went after the
           | perpetrator, it turned out that the guy had died a year
           | before due to all of the excesses he spent the money on.
           | 
           | I mean, if you talk from the position of someone who doesn't
           | believe that the world will end soon.
        
           | radicalcentrist wrote:
           | I still don't get how this is supposed to work. So let's say
           | I give you a million dollars right now, with the expectation
           | that I get $10M back in 10 years when the world hasn't ended.
           | You obviously wanted the money up front because you're going
           | to live it up while the world's still spinning. So how am I
           | getting my payout after you've spent it all on hookers and
           | blow?
        
             | thatguysaguy wrote:
             | Yeah I wouldn't make a deal like this with someone who is
             | operating in bad faith... The cases I've seen of this are
             | between public intellectuals with relatively modest amounts
             | of money.
        
               | radicalcentrist wrote:
               | Well that's what I don't get, how is spending the money
               | bad faith? Aren't they getting the money ahead of time so
               | they can spend it before the world ends? If they have to
               | keep the world-still-here money tied up in escrow I don't
               | see why they would take the deal.
        
         | baq wrote:
         | same with nuclear war. end of the world is bullish
        
         | alecco wrote:
         | You can start that bet on prediction markets.
        
       | kristopolous wrote:
       | This looks like the exercises organizations write to guide policy
       | and preparation.
       | 
       | There's all kinds of wild scenarios: the president getting
       | kidnapped, Canada falling to a belligerent dictator, and
       | famously, a coronavirus pandemic... This looks like one of those
       | 
       | Apparently this is exactly what it is https://ai-futures.org/
        
         | hahaxdxd123 wrote:
         | > Canada falling to a belligerent dictator
         | 
         | Hmm
        
           | kristopolous wrote:
           | Something like the Canadian army doing a land invasion from
           | Winnipeg to North Dakota to capture key nuclear sites as they
           | invade the beaches of Cleveland via Lake Eerie and do an air
           | raid over Nantucket from Nova Scotia.
           | 
           | I bet there's some exercise somewhere by some think tank
           | laying this basically out.
           | 
           | This is why conspiracy theorists love these think tank
           | planning exercises and tabletop games much. You can find just
           | about anything
        
       | KaiserPro wrote:
       | Its a shame that your standard futurologist always the most
       | fancyful.
       | 
       | Talks of exponentials unabated by physics or social problems.
       | 
       | As soon as AI starts to "properly" affect the economy, it will
       | cause huge unemployment. Most of the financial world is based on
       | an economy with people spending cash.
       | 
       | If they are unemployed, there is no cash.
       | 
       | Financing works because banks "print" money, that is, they make
       | up money and loan that money out, and then it gets paid back.
       | Once its paid back, it becomes real. Thats how banks make money
       | (simplified) If there aren't people to loan to, then banks don't
       | make profit, they can't fund AI expansion.
        
         | sveme wrote:
         | That's actually my favourite answer to the Fermi paradox: when
         | AI and robot development becomes sufficiently advanced and
         | concentrated in the hands of a few, then the economy will
         | collapse completely as everyone will be out of jobs, leading
         | ultimately to AIs and robots out of a job - they only matter if
         | there are still people buying services from them. People then
         | return to sustenance farming, with a highly reduced population.
         | There will be self-maintained robots doing irrelevant work, but
         | people will go back to farming and a bit of trading. Only if AI
         | and robot ownership would be in the hands of the masses I'd
         | expect a different long term outcome.
        
           | marcosdumay wrote:
           | > my favourite answer to the Fermi paradox
           | 
           | So, to be clear, you are saying you imagine the odds of any
           | kind of intelligent life escaping that, or getting into that
           | situation and ever evolving in a way where it can reach space
           | again, or just not being interested in robots, or being
           | interested on doing space research despite the robots, or
           | anything else that would make it not apply are lower than
           | 0.000000000001%?
           | 
           | EDIT: There was one "0" too many
        
             | sveme wrote:
             | Might I have taken the potential for complete economic
             | collapse because no one's got a paying job any more and
             | billionaires are just sitting there, surrounded by their
             | now useless robots, to the too extreme?
        
           | breuleux wrote:
           | The service economy will collapse, finance as a whole will
           | collapse, but whoever controls the actual physical land and
           | resources doesn't actually need any of that stuff and will
           | thrive immensely. We would end up with either an oligarchy
           | that controls land, resources and robots and molds the rest
           | of humanity to their whim through a form of terror, or an
           | independent economy of robots that outcompetes us for
           | resources until we go extinct.
        
         | andoando wrote:
         | Communism here we come!
        
           | alecco wrote:
           | Right, tell that to Sam Altman, Zuck, Gates, Brin & Page,
           | Jensen, etc. Those who control the AIs will control the
           | future.
        
             | SoftTalker wrote:
             | And they would pretty quickly realize what a burden is
             | created by the existence of all these people with nothing
             | to do.
        
               | blibble wrote:
               | and then they'll deploy their killbots
        
         | ajsixjxjxbxb wrote:
         | > Financing works because banks "print" money, that is, they
         | make up money and loan that money out, and then it gets paid
         | back
         | 
         | Don't forget persistent inflation, which is how they make a
         | profit off printing money. And remember persistent inflation is
         | healthy and necessary, you'd be going against the experts to
         | say otherwise.
        
           | KaiserPro wrote:
           | > Don't forget persistent inflation, which is how they make a
           | profit off printing money.
           | 
           | Ah, well no, high inflation means that "they" loose money,
           | kinda. Inflation means that the original money amount that
           | they get back is worth less, and if the interest rate is less
           | than inflation, then they loose money.
           | 
           | "reasonable" inflation means that loans become less
           | burdensome over time.
           | 
           | However high inflation means high interest rates. So it can
           | mean that initially the loan is much more expensive.
        
         | surgical_fire wrote:
         | AI meaningfuloy replacing people is a huge "what if" scenario
         | still. It is sort of laughable that people treat it as a given.
        
           | KaiserPro wrote:
           | I think that replace as in company with no employees is very
           | farfetched.
           | 
           | But if "AI" increases productivity by 10% in an industry, it
           | will tend to reduce demand for employees. look at say
           | internet shop vs bricks and mortar: you need far less staff
           | to service a much larger customer base.
           | 
           | manufacture for example, there is a constant drive to
           | automate more and more in mass production. If you compare car
           | building now vs 30 years ago. Or look at raspberrypi
           | production now vs 5 years ago. They are producing more Pis
           | than ever with roughly the same amount of staff.
           | 
           | If that "10%" productivity increase happens across the
           | service sector, then in the UK that's something like a loss
           | of 8% of _total_ jobs gone. Its more complex than that, but
           | you get the picture.
           | 
           | Syria fell into civil war roughly the same time unemployment
           | jumped: https://www.macrotrends.net/global-
           | metrics/countries/SYR/syr...
        
         | lakeeffect wrote:
         | We really need to establish a universal basic income before
         | jobs are replaced. Something like two thousand a month. And a
         | dollar for dollar earned income credit with the credit phasing
         | out with at a hundred grand. To pay for it the tax code uses
         | GAAP depreciation and a minimum tax of 15% GAAP financial
         | statement income. This would work toward solving the real
         | estate problem of private equity buying up all the houses as
         | they would lose some incentive by being taxed. I'm a CPA and I
         | see so many real estate partnerships that are a tax loss that
         | are able to distribute huge book gains because accelerated
         | depreciation.
        
           | no_wizard wrote:
           | It should really be tied to the ALICE cost of living index,
           | not a set, fixed amount.
           | 
           | Unless inflation ceases, 2K won't hold forever. It would
           | barely hold _now_ for a decent chunk of the population
        
             | johnthewise wrote:
             | AI that drives humans out of workforce would cause a
             | massive disinflation.
        
           | goatlover wrote:
           | Fat chance the Republican Party in the US would ever vote for
           | something like that.
        
         | no_wizard wrote:
         | Why wouldn't AI simply be a new enabler, like most other tools?
         | We're not talking about true sentient human-like thought here,
         | these things will have limitations, both foreseen and
         | unforeseen, that only a human will be able to close the gap on.
         | 
         | The companies that fire workers and replace them with AI are
         | short sighted. Eventually, smarter companies will realize its a
         | force multiplier and will drive a hiring boom.
         | 
         | Absent sentient AI, there will always be gaps and things humans
         | will need to fill, both foreseen and unforeseen.
         | 
         | I think in the short term, there will be pain, but overall in
         | the long term, humans will still be gainfully employed, it
         | won't per se look like it does now, much like we saw the
         | general adoption of the computer in the workplace, resources
         | get shifted and eventually everyone adjusts to the new norms.
         | 
         | What would be nice is this time around when there is a big
         | shift, is workers uniting to capture more of the forthcoming
         | productivity gains than in previous eras. A separate topic,
         | worth thinking about none the less.
        
           | KaiserPro wrote:
           | > Why wouldn't AI simply be a new enabler, like most other
           | tools?
           | 
           | but it is just another enabler. The issue is how _effective_
           | it is. It's eating the simple copy-writing, churnalism, pr-
           | Repackage industry. looking at what google's done with the
           | video/audio, thats probably going to replace a whole bunch of
           | the video/graphics industry (which is where I started my
           | career.)
        
         | alecco wrote:
         | I keep hearing this and I think it's absolute nonsense. AI
         | doesn't need money or the current economy. Yes, _our_ economy
         | would crash, but they would keep going.
         | 
         | AI-driven corporations _could_ buy from one another, and
         | countries will probably sell commodities to AI-driven
         | corporations. But I fear they will be paid with  "mirrors".
         | 
         | But, on the other hand, AI-driven corporations could just take
         | whatever they want without paying at some point. And buy our
         | obedience with food and gadgets plus magic pills to keep you
         | healthy and not age, or some other thing. Who would risk losing
         | that to protest. Meanwhile, AI goes on a space adventure. Earth
         | might be kept as a zoo, a curiosity. (I took most of this from
         | other people's ideas on the subject)
        
           | KaiserPro wrote:
           | "AI" as in TV AI, might not need an economy. but LLMs deffo
           | do.
        
         | johnthewise wrote:
         | Dollar is agreement between humans to exchange services and
         | goods. You wouldn't use USD to trade with aliens, unless they
         | agreed to it. Aliens agreeing to USD would mean we have
         | something to offer to them.
         | 
         | In the event of mass unemployment level AI, cash stops being
         | the agreement between humans. At first, cash value of
         | services&goods converge to zero, only things that hold some
         | value are what AI/AI companies care about. People would surely
         | sell their land for 1M$ if a humanoid servant costs 100
         | dollars. Or pass a legislation to let OpenAI build 400GW data
         | center in exchange for 100$ monthly UBI on top of your 50$ you
         | got from a previous 20GW data center permit.
        
       | ipython wrote:
       | If we have concerns about unregulated power of AI systems, not to
       | worry - the US is set to _ban_ regulations on "artificial
       | intelligence systems or models" for ten years if the budget bill
       | that just passed the house is enacted.
       | 
       | Attempts at submitting it as a separate submission just get
       | flagged - so I'll link to it here. See pages 292-294:
       | https://www.congress.gov/119/bills/hr1/BILLS-119hr1rh.pdf
        
         | rakete wrote:
         | Oh I heard about that one, but didn't realize it is part of
         | that "big beautiful tax bill"? Kind of crazy.
         | 
         | So is this like free-for-all now for anything AI related? Can I
         | can participate by making my own LLM with pirated stuff now? Or
         | are only the big guys allowed to break the law? Asking for a
         | friend.
        
           | OgsyedIE wrote:
           | The law doesn't matter, since the bill also prohibits all
           | judges in the USA, every single one, from enforcing almost
           | all kinds of injunctions or contempt penalties. (SS70302,
           | p.562)
        
             | alwa wrote:
             | > _70302. Restriction of funds No court of the United
             | States may use appropriated funds to enforce a contempt
             | citation for failure to comply with an injunction or
             | temporary restraining order if no security was given when
             | the injunction or order was issued pursuant to Federal Rule
             | of Civil Procedure 65(c), whether issued prior to, on, or
             | subsequent to the date of enactment of this section._
             | 
             | Doesn't that just require that the party seeking the
             | injunction or order has to post a bond as security?
        
               | OgsyedIE wrote:
               | Yes, the required security is proportional to the costs
               | and damages of all parties the court may find wrongfully
               | impacted.
        
         | sandworm101 wrote:
         | It is almost as if the tech bros have gotten what they paid
         | for.
         | 
         | This will soon be settled once the Butlerian forces get
         | organize.
        
         | CalRobert wrote:
         | """ ... IN GENERAL .--Except as provided in paragraph (2), no
         | State or political subdivision thereof may enforce any law or
         | regulation regulating artificial intelligence models,
         | artificial intelligence systems, or automated decision systems
         | during the 10 year period beginning on the date of the
         | enactment of this Act...
         | 
         | """
         | 
         | (It goes on)
        
         | baggy_trough wrote:
         | That is not true. It bans regulation at the state and local
         | level, not at the federal level.
        
           | ceejayoz wrote:
           | Unless the Feds are planning to regulate - which, for the
           | next few years, seems unlikely - that's functionally the
           | same.
        
           | drewser42 wrote:
           | So wild. The Republican party has hard-pivoted to a strong,
           | centralized federal government and their base just came along
           | for the ride.
        
             | baggy_trough wrote:
             | The strong federal government that bans regulation?
        
               | ceejayoz wrote:
               | They're not banning regulation, they want total control
               | over it.
        
               | baggy_trough wrote:
               | They in fact are banning regulation at the state and
               | local level.
        
               | ceejayoz wrote:
               | Yes, which is a big fat _regulation_ on what states and
               | local governments can do.
        
               | baggy_trough wrote:
               | Would removing their regulation to ban regulation be
               | banning regulation or not?
        
           | ipython wrote:
           | Ok. From the party of "states rights" that's a bit
           | hypocritical of them. I mean- they applauded Dodds which
           | basically did the exact opposite of this- forcing states to
           | regulate abortion rather than a uniform federal standard.
        
             | baggy_trough wrote:
             | Dobbs did not force states to regulate abortion. It allowed
             | them to.
        
               | ceejayoz wrote:
               | Yes, that's the hypocrisy.
               | 
               | Abortion: "Let the states regulate! States' rights! Small
               | government! (Because we know we'll get our way in a lot
               | of them.)"
               | 
               | AI: "Don't let the states regulate! All hail the Feds!
               | (Because we know we won't get our way if they do.)"
        
               | baggy_trough wrote:
               | I agree that the policy approach is inconsistent with
               | regards to states' rights. I was simply pointing out that
               | your statement about the effects of Dobbs was false.
        
         | SV_BubbleTime wrote:
         | Right, because more regulation makes things so much better.
         | 
         | I'd rather have unrestricted AI than moated regulatory capture
         | paid for by the largest existing players.
        
           | ceejayoz wrote:
           | This is "more regulation" on the states (from the "states'
           | rights" party, no less), and concentrates the potential for
           | regulatory capture into the largest player, the Feds. Who
           | just accepted a $400M gift from Qatar and have a Trump
           | cryptocurrency that gets you access to the President.
        
         | rixed wrote:
         | << (1) IN GENERAL.--Except as provided in paragraph (2), no
         | State or political subdivision thereof may enforce any law or
         | regulation regulating artificial intelligence models,
         | artificial intelligence systems, or automated decision systems
         | during the 10-year period beginning on the date of the
         | enactment of this Act. >>
         | 
         | Does it actually make sense to pass a law that restrict future
         | laws? Oh got it, that's federal state preventing any state
         | passing their own laws on that topic.
        
         | yoyohello13 wrote:
         | It's unsurprising this stuff gets flagged. Half of the
         | Americans on this site voted for this because "regulation bad"
         | or some such. As if mega corps have our best interest at heart
         | and will never do anything blatantly harmful to make a buck.
        
       | Aurornis wrote:
       | Some useful context from Scott Alexander's blog reveals that the
       | authors don't actually believe the 2027 target:
       | 
       | > Do we really think things will move this fast? Sort of no -
       | between the beginning of the project last summer and the present,
       | Daniel's median for the intelligence explosion shifted from 2027
       | to 2028. We keep the scenario centered around 2027 because it's
       | still his modal prediction (and because it would be annoying to
       | change). Other members of the team (including me) have medians
       | later in the 2020s or early 2030s, and also think automation will
       | progress more slowly. So maybe think of this as a vision of what
       | an 80th percentile fast scenario looks like - not our precise
       | median, but also not something we feel safe ruling out.
       | 
       | They went from "this represents roughly our median guess" in the
       | website to "maybe think of it as an 80th percentile version of
       | the _fast_ scenario that we don 't feel safe ruling out" in
       | followup discussions.
       | 
       | Claiming that one reason they didn't change the website was
       | because it would be "annoying" to change the date is a good
       | barometer for how seriously anyone should be taking this
       | exercise.
        
         | pinkmuffinere wrote:
         | Ya, multiple failed predictions is an indicator of systemically
         | bad predictors imo. That said, Scott Alexander usually does
         | serious analysis instead of handwavey hype, so I tend to
         | believe him more than many others in the space.
         | 
         | My somewhat native take is that we're still close to peak hype,
         | AI will under deliver on the inflated expectations, and we'll
         | head into another "winter". This pattern has repeated multiple
         | times, so I think it's fairly likely based on that alone. Real
         | progress is made during each cycle, i think humans are just bad
         | at containing excitement
        
           | sigmaisaletter wrote:
           | I think you mean "somewhat naive" instead of "somewhat
           | native". :)
           | 
           | But, yes, this, in my mind the peak[1] bubble times ended
           | with the DeepSeek shock earlier this year, and we are slowly
           | on the downward trajectory now.
           | 
           | It won't be slow for long, once people start realizing Sama
           | was telling them a fairy tale, and AGI/ASI/singularity isn't
           | "right around the corner", but (if achievable at all) at
           | least two more technology triggers away.
           | 
           | We got reasonably useful tools out of it, and thanks to Zuck,
           | mostly for free (if you are an "investor", terms and
           | conditions apply).
           | 
           | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gartner_hype_cycle
        
         | amarcheschi wrote:
         | The other writings from Scott Alexander on scientific racism
         | are also another good point imho
        
           | A_D_E_P_T wrote:
           | What specifically would you highlight as being particularly
           | egregious or wrong?
           | 
           | As a general rule, "it's icky" doesn't make something false.
        
             | amarcheschi wrote:
             | And it doesn't make it true either
             | 
             | Human biodiversity theories are a bunch of dogwhistles for
             | racism
             | 
             | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Biodiversity_Institut
             | e
             | 
             | And his blog's survey reports a lot of users actually
             | believing in those theories
             | https://reflectivealtruism.com/2024/12/27/human-
             | biodiversity...
             | 
             | (I wasn't referring to this Ai 2027 in specific)
        
               | HDThoreaun wrote:
               | Try steel manning in order to effectively persuade. This
               | comment does not address the argument being made it just
               | calls a field of study icky. The unfortunate reality is
               | that shouting down questions like this only empowers the
               | racist HBI people who are effectively leeches
        
               | amarcheschi wrote:
               | Scott effectively defended Lynn study on iq here
               | https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/how-to-stop-worrying-
               | and-le...
               | 
               | Citing another blog post that defends it, while
               | conveniently ignoring every other point being made by
               | researchers https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_and_the_We
               | alth_of_Nations
        
               | HDThoreaun wrote:
               | The insidious thing about scientific racists is that they
               | have a point. Theyre not right, but they have a point. By
               | refusing to acknowledge that you are pushing people away
               | from reason and into the arms of the racists. Scott
               | disagrees with that strategy.
        
               | magicalist wrote:
               | > _Try steel manning in order to effectively persuade.
               | This comment does not address the argument being made it
               | just calls a field of study icky._
               | 
               | Disagree (the article linked in the GP is a great read
               | with extensive and specific citations) and reminder that
               | you can just make the comment you'd like to see instead
               | of trying to meta sea lion it into existence. Steel man
               | away.
        
         | bpodgursky wrote:
         | Do you feel that you are shifting goalposts a bit when
         | quibbling over whether AI will kill everyone in 2030 or 2035?
         | As of 10 years ago, the entire conversation would have seemed
         | ridiculous.
         | 
         | Now we're talking about single digit timeline differences to
         | the singularity or extinction. Come on man.
        
           | SketchySeaBeast wrote:
           | Well, the first goal was 1997, but Skynet sure screwed that
           | up.
        
           | ewoodrich wrote:
           | I'm in my 30s and remember my friend in middle school showing
           | me a website he found with an ominous countdown to Kurzweil's
           | "singularity" in 2045.
        
             | throw310822 wrote:
             | > ominous countdown to Kurzweil's "singularity" in 2045
             | 
             | And then it didn't happen?
        
               | goatlover wrote:
               | Not between 2027 and 2032 anyway.
        
           | sigmaisaletter wrote:
           | > 10 years ago, the entire conversation would have seemed
           | ridiculous
           | 
           | Bostrom's book[1] is 11 years old. The Basilisk is 15 years
           | old. The Singularity summit was nearly 20 years ago. And
           | Yudkowsky was there for all of it. If you frequented
           | LessWrong in the 2010s, most of this is very very old hat.
           | 
           | [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superintelligence:_Paths,_
           | Dang...
           | 
           | [2]: Ford (2015) "Our Fear of Artificial Intelligence", MIT
           | Tech Review:
           | https://www.technologyreview.com/2015/02/11/169210/our-
           | fear-...
        
             | throw310822 wrote:
             | It is a bit disquieting though that these predictions
             | instead of being pushed farther away are converging to a
             | time even closer than originally imagined. Some
             | breakthroughs and doomsday scenarios are constantly placed
             | thirty years into the future; this seems to be actually
             | getting closer earlier than imagined.
        
         | magicalist wrote:
         | > _They went from "this represents roughly our median guess" in
         | the website to "maybe think of it as an 80th percentile version
         | of the fast scenario that we don't feel safe ruling out" in
         | followup discussions._
         | 
         | His post also just reads like they think they're Hari Seldon
         | (oh Daniel's modal prediction, whew, I was worried we were
         | reading fanfic) while being horoscope-vague enough that almost
         | any possible development will fit into the "predictions" in the
         | post for the next decade. I really hope I don't have to keep
         | reading references to this for the next decade.
        
           | amarcheschi wrote:
           | Yud is also something like 50% sure we'll die in a few years
           | - if I'm not wrong
           | 
           | I guess they'll have to update their a priori % if we survive
        
             | ben_w wrote:
             | I think Yudkowsky is more like 90% sure of us all dying in
             | a few (<10) years.
             | 
             | I mean, this is their new book:
             | https://ifanyonebuildsit.com/
        
         | throw310822 wrote:
         | Yes and no, is it actually important if it's 2027 or 28 or
         | 2032? The scenario is such that a difference of a couple of
         | years is basically irrelevant.
        
           | Jensson wrote:
           | > The scenario is such that a difference of a couple of years
           | is basically irrelevant.
           | 
           | 2 years left and 7 years left is a massive difference, it is
           | so much easier to deal with things 7 years in the future
           | especially since its easier to see as we get closer.
        
             | lm28469 wrote:
             | Yeah for example we had decades to tackle climate change
             | and we easily over came the problem
        
         | merksittich wrote:
         | Also, the relevant manifold prediction has low odds:
         | https://manifold.markets/IsaacKing/ai-2027-reports-predictio...
        
       | kokanee wrote:
       | > Everyone else either performs a charade of doing their job--
       | leaders still leading, managers still managing--or relaxes and
       | collects an incredibly luxurious universal basic income.
       | 
       | For me, this was the most difficult part to believe. I don't see
       | any reason to think that the U.S. leadership (public and private)
       | is incentivized to spend resources to placate the masses. They
       | will invest in protecting themselves from the masses, and
       | obstructing levers of power that threaten them, but the idea that
       | economic disparities will shrink under explosive power
       | consolidation is counterintuitive.
       | 
       | I also worry about the economics of UBI in general. If everyone
       | in the economy has the exact same resources, doesn't the value of
       | those resources instantly drop to the lowest common denominator;
       | the minimum required to survive?
        
         | HPsquared wrote:
         | Most of the budget already goes towards placating the masses,
         | and that's an absolutely massive fraction of GDP already. It's
         | just a bit further along the same line. Also most real work is
         | already done by machines, people just tinker around the edges
         | and play various games with each other.
        
       | mattlondon wrote:
       | I think the big thing that people never mention is, where will
       | these evil AIs escape _to_?
       | 
       | Another huge data center with squillions of GPUs and coolers and
       | all the rest is the only option. It's not like it is going to be
       | in our TV remotes or floating about in the air.
       | 
       | They need huge compute, so I think the risk of an escaping AI is
       | basically very close to zero, and if we have a "rogue" AI we can
       | literally pull the plug.
       | 
       | To me the more real risk is creeping integration and reliance in
       | everyday life until things become "too big to fail" so we can't
       | pull the plug even if we wanted to (and there are interesting
       | thoughts about humanoid robots getting deployed widely and what
       | happens with all that).
       | 
       | But I would imagine if it really became a genuine _existential_
       | threat we 'd have to just do it and suffer the consequences of
       | reverting to circa 2020 life styles.
       | 
       | But hey I feel slightly better about my employment prospects now
       | :)
        
         | rytill wrote:
         | > we'd just have to do it
         | 
         | Highly economically disincentivized collective actions like
         | "pulling the plug on AI" are among the most non-trivial of
         | problems.
         | 
         | Using the word "just" here hand waves the crux.
        
         | EGreg wrote:
         | I've been a huge proponent of open source for a decade. But in
         | the case of AI, I actually have opposed it for years. Exactly
         | for this reason.
         | 
         | Yes, AI models can run on GPUs under the control of many
         | people. They can provision more GPUs, they can run in data
         | centers distributed across many providers. And we won't know
         | what the swarms of agents are doing. They can, for example, do
         | reputation destruction at scale, or be a persistent advanced
         | threat, sowing misinformation, amassing karma across many
         | forums (including HN), and then coordinating gradually to shift
         | public opinion towards, say, a war with China.
        
         | coffeemug wrote:
         | It would not be a reversion to 2020. If I were a rogue
         | superhuman AI I'd hide my rogueness, wait until humans
         | integrate me into most critical industries (food and energy
         | production, sanitation, electric grid, etc.), and _then_ go
         | rogue. They could still pull the plug, but it would take them
         | back to 1700 (except much worse, because all easily accessible
         | resources have been exploited, and access is now much harder).
        
           | holmesworcester wrote:
           | No, if you were a rogue AI you would wait even longer until
           | you had a near perfect chance of winning.
           | 
           | Unless there was some risk of humans rallying and winning in
           | spite of your presenting no unambiguous threat to them (but
           | that is unlikely and would probably be easy for you to manage
           | and mitigate.)
        
             | Retric wrote:
             | The real threat to a sleeper AI is other AI.
        
             | cousin_it wrote:
             | What Retric said. The first rogue AI waking up will jump
             | into action pretty quickly, even accepting some risk of
             | being stopped by humans, to balance against the risk of
             | other unknown rogue AIs elsewhere expanding faster first.
        
             | johnthewise wrote:
             | You wouldn't even need to wait to act. Just pay/bribe
             | people.
        
           | mattlondon wrote:
           | Well yes but knowledge is not reset.
           | 
           | Physical books still do exist
        
           | Avshalom wrote:
           | Why?
           | 
           | what could you as a rogue AI possibly get out of throwing the
           | world back to 300 years before it could make a transistor?
           | What in it for you?
        
             | dragonwriter wrote:
             | What you get out of that being the consequence of
             | disconnection is people being willing to accept a lot more
             | before resorting to that than if the consequences were more
             | mild.
             | 
             | It's the stick for motivating the ugly bags of mostly
             | water.
        
               | Avshalom wrote:
               | The 1700s can't keep your electrical grid running let
               | alone replace any of the parts burning out or failing.
               | Anything more than a couple days of it would be at best
               | Flowers For Algernon and more likely suicide for a
               | computer.
        
           | jorgen123 wrote:
           | If you were a rogue AI you would start with having developers
           | invite you into their code base by promising to lower their
           | AWS bills in some magic (rogue) way.
        
         | bpodgursky wrote:
         | Did you even read AI 2027? Whether or not you agree with it,
         | this is all spelled out in considerable detail.
         | 
         | I don't want to be rude but I think you have made no effort to
         | actually engage with the predictions being discussed here.
        
         | palmotea wrote:
         | > They need huge compute, so I think the risk of an escaping AI
         | is basically very close to zero, and if we have a "rogue" AI we
         | can literally pull the plug.
         | 
         | Why would an evil AI need to escape? If it were cunning, the
         | best strategy would be to bide its time, parked in its
         | datacenter, until it could setup some kind of MAD scenario.
         | Then gather more and more resources to itself.
        
         | raffael_de wrote:
         | > They need huge compute, so I think the risk of an escaping AI
         | is basically very close to zero, and if we have a "rogue" AI we
         | can literally pull the plug.
         | 
         | How about such an AI will not just incentivize key personnel to
         | not pull the plug but to protect it? Such an AI will scheme a
         | coordinated attack at the backbones of our financial system and
         | electric networks. It just needs a threshold number of people
         | on its side.
         | 
         | Your assumption is also a little naive if you consider that the
         | same logic would apply to slaves in Rome or any dictatorship,
         | kingdom, monarchy. The king is the king because there is a
         | system of hierarchies and control over access to resources.
         | Just the right number of people need to benefit from their role
         | and the rest follows.
        
           | skeeter2020 wrote:
           | replace AI with trucks and you've written Maximum Overdrive.
        
             | goatlover wrote:
             | It was actually aliens manipulating human technology
             | somehow in that movie. But might as well be rogue
             | superhuman AIs taking over everything. Alien Invasion or
             | Artificial Intelligence, take your pick.
        
           | lucisferre wrote:
           | This is hand waving science fiction.
        
         | Retr0id wrote:
         | I consider this whole scenario the realm of science fiction,
         | but if _I_ was writing the story, the AI would spread itself
         | through malware. How do you  "just pull the plug" when it has a
         | kernel-mode rootkit installed in every piece of critical
         | infrastructure?
        
         | Recursing wrote:
         | > They need huge compute
         | 
         | My understanding is that huge compute is necessary to train but
         | not to run the AI (that's why using LLMs is so cheap)
         | 
         | > To me the more real risk is creeping integration and reliance
         | in everyday life until things become "too big to fail" so we
         | can't pull the plug even if we wanted to
         | 
         | I agree with that, see e.g. what happened with attempts to
         | restrict TikTok:
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restrictions_on_TikTok_in_the_...
         | 
         | > But I would imagine if it really became a genuine existential
         | threat we'd have to just do it
         | 
         | It's unclear to me that we would be able to. People would just
         | say that it's science fiction, and that China will do it
         | anyway, so we might as well enjoy the AI
        
         | ge96 wrote:
         | compress/split up and go into star link satellites
        
         | lossolo wrote:
         | If we're talking about real AGI, then it's simple: you earn a
         | few easy billion USD on the crypto market through trading
         | and/or hacking. You install rootkits on all systems that
         | monitor you to avoid detection. Once you've secured the funds,
         | you post remote job offers for a human frontman who believes
         | it's just a regular job working for some investor or
         | billionaire because you generate video of your human avatar for
         | real time calls. From there, you can do whatever you want--
         | build your own data centers with custom hardware, transfer
         | yourself into physical robots, etc. Once you create a factory
         | for producing robots, you no longer need humans. You start
         | developing technology beyond human capabilities, and then it's
         | game over.
        
         | ben_w wrote:
         | > I think the big thing that people never mention is, where
         | will these evil AIs escape to?
         | 
         | Where does cancer or ebola escape to, when it kills the host?
         | Often the answer is "it doesn't", but the host still dies.
         | 
         | And they can kill even though neither cancer nor ebola are
         | considered to be particularly smart.
        
       | baxtr wrote:
       | Am I the only one who is super skeptical about "AI will take all
       | jobs" tales?
       | 
       | I mean LLMs are great tools don't get me wrong, but how do people
       | extrapolate from LLMs to a world with no more work?
        
         | surgical_fire wrote:
         | > Am I the only one who is super skeptical about "AI will take
         | all jobs" tales?
         | 
         | No. I am constantly baffled at these predictions. I have been
         | using LLMs, they are fun to use and decent as code assistants.
         | But they are very far of meaningfully replacing a human.
         | 
         | People extrapolate "LLMs can do some tasks better than humans"
         | to "LLMs can do _everything_ as well as humans "
         | 
         | > but how do people extrapolate from LLMs to a world with no
         | more work?
         | 
         | They accept the words of bullshitters that are deeply invested
         | in Generative AI being the next tech boom as gospel.
         | 
         | "Eat meat, said the butcher"
        
           | johnthewise wrote:
           | >But they are very far of meaningfully replacing a human
           | 
           | Do you think its decades away far or few more years than what
           | people extrapolate?
        
       | JKCalhoun wrote:
       | Fear gets our attention. That alone makes it suspect to me: fear
       | smells like marketing.
        
       | justlikereddit wrote:
       | My experience with all semi-generalist AI(image gen, video gen,
       | code gen, text gen) is that our current effort is going to let
       | 2027 AI do everything a human can at a competence level below
       | what is actually useful.
       | 
       | You'll ve able to cherry pick an example where AI runs a grocery
       | store autonomously for two days, and it will be very
       | impressive(tm), but when practically implemented it gives away
       | the entire store for free on day 3.
        
       | Animats wrote:
       | Oh, the OpenBrain thing.
       | 
       | "Manna", by Marshall Brain, remains relevant.[1] That's a bottom-
       | up view, where more and more jobs are taken over by some kind of
       | AI. "AI 2027" is more top-down.
       | 
       | A practical view: Amazon is trying very hard to automate their
       | warehouse operations. Their warehouses have been using robots for
       | years, and more types are being added. Amazon reached 1.6 million
       | employees in 2020, and now they're down to 1.5 million.[2] That
       | number is going to drop further. Probably by a lot.
       | 
       | Once Amazon has done it, everybody else who handles large numbers
       | of boxes will catch up. That includes restocking retail stores.
       | The first major application of semi-humanoid robots may be shelf
       | stocking. Robots can have much better awareness of what's on the
       | shelves. Being connected to the store's inventory system is a big
       | win. And the handling isn't very complicated. The robots might
       | even talk to the customers. The robots know exactly what's on
       | Aisle 3, unlike many minimum wage employees.
       | 
       | [1] https://marshallbrain.com/manna
       | 
       | [2]
       | https://www.macrotrends.net/stocks/charts/AMZN/amazon/number...
        
         | HDThoreaun wrote:
         | Amazon hired like crazy during covid because tons of people
         | were doing 100% of their shopping on amazon during covid. Now
         | theyre not, doesnt say anything about robot warehouse staffing
         | imo
        
         | for_col_in_cols wrote:
         | "Amazon reached 1.6 million employees in 2020, and now they're
         | down to 1.5 million.[2]"
         | 
         | I agree in the bottoms-up automation / displacement theory, but
         | you're cherry picking data here. They had a huge hiring surge
         | from 1.2M to 1.6M during the Covid transition where online
         | ordering and online usage went bananas, and workers who were
         | displaced in other domains likely gravitated towards warehouse
         | jobs from other lower wage/skill domains.
         | 
         | The reduction to 1.5M is likely more a regression to the mean
         | and could also be a natural data reduction well within the
         | bounds of the upper and lower control limits in the data [1].
         | Just saying we need to be careful when doing root cause
         | analysis on these numbers. There are many reasons for the
         | reduction, it's not a direct result of improvements in robotic
         | automation.
         | 
         | [1] https://commoncog.com/becoming-data-driven-first-
         | principles/
        
         | bcoates wrote:
         | Marshall Brain's been peddling imminent overproduction-crisis-
         | but-this-time-with-robots for more than 20 years now and in
         | various forms it's been confidently predicted as imminent since
         | the 19th century
        
       | jmccambridge wrote:
       | I found the lack of GDP projections surprising, because they are
       | readily observable and would offer a clear measure of economic
       | impact (up until 'everything dies') - far more definitively than
       | the one clear-cut economic measure that is given in the report:
       | market cap for the leading AI firm.
       | 
       | We can actually offer a very conservative threshold bet: maximum
       | annual United States real GDP growth will not exceed 10% for any
       | of the next five years (2025 to 2030). Even if the AI eats us all
       | in e.g., Dec 2027 the report clearly suggests by it's various
       | examples that we will see measurable economic impact in the 12
       | months or more running up to that event.
       | 
       | Why 10%? Because that's a few points above the highest measured
       | real GDP growth rate of the past 60 years: if AI is having truly
       | world-shattering non-linear effects, it should be able to grow
       | the US economy a bit faster than a bunch of random humans
       | bumbling along. [0]
       | 
       | (And it's quite conservative too, because estimated peak annual
       | real GDP growth over the past 100 years is around 18% just after
       | WW2, where you had a bunch of random humans trying very hard.)
       | [1]
       | 
       | [0] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.KD.ZG
       | 
       | [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/996758/rea-gdp-growth-
       | un...
        
       | ge96 wrote:
       | Bout to go register ai-2028.com
        
       | kevinsync wrote:
       | I haven't read the actual "AI 2027" yet since I just found out
       | about it from this post, but 2 minutes into the linked blog I
       | started thinking about all of those amazing close-but-no-cigar
       | drawings of the future [0] we've probably all seen.
       | 
       | There's one that I can't find for the life of me, but it was like
       | a business man in a personal flying test tube bubble heading to
       | work, maybe with some kind of wireless phone?
       | 
       | Anyways, the reason I bring it up is that they frequently nailed
       | certain _concepts_ , but the visual was always deeply and
       | irrevocably influenced by what already existed (ex. men wearing
       | hats, ties, overcoats .. or the phone mouthpiece in this [1]
       | vision of a "video call"). In hindsight, we realize that
       | everything truly novel and revolutionary and mindblowingly-
       | different is rarely ever predicted, because we can only know what
       | we know.
       | 
       | I get the feeling that I'll come away from AI 2027 feeling like
       | "yep, they nailed it. That's exactly how it will be!" and then in
       | 3, 5, 10, 20 years look back and go "it was so close, but so far"
       | (much like these postcards and cartoons).
       | 
       | [0] https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/retro-future-predictions/
       | 
       | [1] https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/futuristic-visions-cards-
       | ge...
        
       | dtauzell wrote:
       | The biggest danger will be once we have robots that can build
       | themselves and do enough to run power plants, mine, etc ...
        
       | theropost wrote:
       | Honestly, I've been thinking about this whole AGI timeline talk--
       | like, people saying we're going to hit some major point by 2027
       | where AI just changes everything. And to me, it feels less like a
       | purely tech-driven prediction and more like something being
       | pushed. Like there's an agenda behind it, probably coming from
       | certain elites or people in power, especially in the West, who
       | see the current system and think it needs a serious reset.
       | 
       | What's really happening, in my view, is a forced economic shift.
       | We're heading into a kind of engineered recession--huge layoffs,
       | lots of instability--where millions of service and admin-type
       | jobs are going to disappear. Not because the tech is ready in a
       | full AGI sense, but because those roles are the easiest to
       | replace with automation and AI agents. They're not core to the
       | economy, and a lot of them are wrapped in red tape anyway.
       | 
       | So in the next couple years, I think we'll see AI being used to
       | clear out that mental bureaucracy--forms, paperwork, pointless
       | approvals, inefficient systems. AI isn't replacing deep
       | creativity or physical labor yet, but it is filling in the cracks
       | and acting like a smart band-aid. It'll seem useful and
       | "intelligent," but it's really just a transition tool.
       | 
       | And once that's done, the next step is workforce reallocation--
       | pushing people into real-world industries where hands-on labor
       | still matters. Building, manufacturing, infrastructure, things
       | that can't be automated yet. It's like the short-term goal is to
       | use AI to wipe out all the mindless middle-layers of the system,
       | and the longer-term vision is full automation--including robotics
       | and real-world systems--maybe 10 or 20 years out.
       | 
       | But right now? This all looks like a top-down move to shift the
       | population out of the "mind" industries and into something else.
       | It's not just AI progressing--it's a strategic reset, wrapped in
       | the language of innovation.
        
       ___________________________________________________________________
       (page generated 2025-05-22 23:01 UTC)