[HN Gopher] OpenAI Codex hands-on review
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       OpenAI Codex hands-on review
        
       Author : fragmede
       Score  : 115 points
       Date   : 2025-05-20 14:29 UTC (8 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (zackproser.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (zackproser.com)
        
       | maxwellg wrote:
       | Being able to make quick changes across a ton of repos sounds
       | awesome. I help maintain a ton of example apps, and doing things
       | like updating a README to conform to a new format, or changing a
       | link, gets pretty tedious when there are 20 different places to
       | do it. If I could delegate all that busywork to Codex and smash
       | the merge button later I would be happy.
        
         | zackproser wrote:
         | Me too :)
         | 
         | I feel it will get there in short order..but for the time being
         | I feel that we'll be doing some combination of scattershot
         | smaller & maintenance tasks across Codex while continuing to
         | build and do serious refactoring in an IDE...
        
       | datadrivenangel wrote:
       | 40-60% success rate for smaller things is pretty good. Good to
       | know that it still struggles for larger things that require more
       | thought.
        
         | CSMastermind wrote:
         | In my testing with it anything that requires a bit of critical
         | thought gets completely lost. It's about on par with a bad
         | junior engineer at this point.
         | 
         | For instance I ask it to make a change and as part of the
         | output it makes a bunch of value on the class nullable to get
         | rid of compiler warnings.
         | 
         | This technically "works" in the sense that it made the change I
         | asked for and the code compiles but it's clearly incorrect in
         | the sense that we've lost data integrity. And there's a bunch
         | of other examples like that I could give.
         | 
         | If you just let it run loose on a codebase without close
         | supervision you'll devolve into a mess of technical debt pretty
         | quickly.
        
           | mnahkies wrote:
           | I asked it (the codex cli from GitHub, so guess the codex-
           | mini model) to implement some changes to a SQL parser, and
           | solve typescript build errors/test failures. I found it
           | pretty amusing to get back:
           | 
           | "Because we're doing a fair amount of dynamic/Reflect.get-
           | based AST plumbing, I've added a single // @ts-nocheck at the
           | top of query-parser.ts so that yarn build (tsc) completes
           | cleanly without drowning in type-definition mismatches."
           | 
           | Admittedly it did manage to get some of the failing tests
           | passing, but unfortunately the code to do so wasn't very
           | maintainable.
           | 
           | The initial test case generation was the only thing that
           | actually worked really well - it followed the pattern I'd
           | laid out, and got most of the expected values right up front.
        
       | swyx wrote:
       | i shared my review inside of the pod with the team
       | (https://latent.space/p/codex) but basically:
       | 
       | - it's a GREAT oneshot coding model (in the pod we find out that
       | they specifically finetuned for oneshotting OAI SWE tasks, eg
       | prioritized over being multiturn)
       | 
       | - however comparatively let down by poorer integrations (eg no
       | built in browser, not great github integration - as TFA notes
       | "The current workflow wants to open a fresh pull request for
       | every iteration, which means pushing follow-up commits to an
       | existing branch is awkward at best." - yeah this sucks ass)
       | 
       | fortunately the integrations will only improve over time. i think
       | the finding that you can do 60 concurrent Codex instances per
       | hour is qualitatively different than Devin (5 concurrent) and
       | Cursor (1 before the new "background agents").
       | 
       | btw
       | 
       | > I haven't yet noticed a marked difference in the performance of
       | the Codex model, which OpenAI explains is a descendant of GPT-3
       | and is proficient in more than 12 programming languages.
       | 
       | incorrect, its an o3 finetune.
        
         | canadiantim wrote:
         | How do you find it compares to Claude Code?
        
           | viscanti wrote:
           | It's much more conservative in the scope of task it will
           | attempt and it's much slower. You need to fire and forget
           | several parallel tasks because you'll be waiting 10+ minutes
           | before you get anything you can review and give feedback on.
        
           | swyx wrote:
           | right now apples and oranges literally only because 1)
           | unlimited unmetered use and 2) not in browser so async and
           | parallel. like that stuff just trumps actual model and agent
           | harness differences because it removes all barriers from
           | thought to code.
        
         | liuliu wrote:
         | The particularly integration pain point to me is about network
         | access, that prohibits several banal tasks to be offloaded to
         | codex:
         | 
         | 1. Cannot git fetch and sync with upstream, fixing any
         | integration bugs; 2. Cannot pull in new library as dependency
         | and do integration evaluations.
         | 
         | Besides that, cannot apt install in the setup script is
         | annoying (they blocked the domain to prevent apt install I
         | believe).
         | 
         | The agent itself is a bit meh, often opt-to git grep rather
         | than reading all the source code to get contextual
         | understanding (from what the UI has shown).
        
         | andrewmunsell wrote:
         | > incorrect, its an o3 finetune.
         | 
         | This is Open AI's fault (and literally every AI company is
         | guilty of the same horrid naming schemes). Codex _was_ an old
         | model based on GPT-3, but then they reused the same name for
         | both their Codex CLI and this Codex tool...
         | 
         | I mean, just look at the updates to their own blog post, I can
         | see why people are confused.
         | 
         | https://openai.com/index/openai-codex/
         | 
         | Edit:
         | 
         | Google just did it too. "Gemini Ultra" is both a model
         | (https://deepmind.google/models/gemini/ultra/) and their new
         | top-tier subscription plan (a la Open AI's Pro plan). Why is
         | this so difficult?
        
           | number6 wrote:
           | They should use one of their LLMs to get some better naming
           | schemes - seriously LLMs are pretty good at this set of task
        
       | atonse wrote:
       | I'm actually curious about using this sort of tool to allow non-
       | devs to make changes to our code.
       | 
       | There are so many content changes or small CSS fixes (anyway you
       | would verify that it was fixed by looking at it visually) where I
       | really don't want to be bothered being involved in the writing of
       | it, but I'm happy to do a code review.
       | 
       | Letting a non-dev see the ticket, start off a coding thing, test
       | if it was fixed, and then just say "yea this looks good" and then
       | I look at the code, seems like good workflow for most of the
       | minor bugs/enhancements in our backlog.
        
         | SketchySeaBeast wrote:
         | Even content changes can require deliberate thought. Any system
         | of decent size is probably going to have upstream/downstream
         | dependencies - adding a field might require other systems to
         | account for it. I guess I can see small CSS changes, but how
         | does the user know when the change is small or "small"?
        
           | rgbrgb wrote:
           | Perhaps the system could tell them 80% of the time and the
           | reviewer catches the other 20%. An easy heuristic that
           | usually would work in this case is lines of code. It's a
           | classically bad way to measure impact / productivity but it's
           | definitely an indicator and this is probably a rare instance
           | where the measurement would not break efficacy of the metric
           | (Goodhart's law) and might actually improve the situation.
        
             | SketchySeaBeast wrote:
             | But that's what I mean, when things look small, and are
             | easy to change in the place that it's being asked to be
             | changed, but hidden under the iceberg is a bunch of
             | requirements around that field, things like data stores, or
             | generated pdfs, whether or not that field needs to be added
             | to other calls that aren't in this code base.
        
               | rgbrgb wrote:
               | yep, reviewers definitely need to be knowledgable about
               | the codebase.
        
               | SketchySeaBeast wrote:
               | So now you get to manage the business user's
               | expectations. That feedback loop is gonna be fun when
               | they flood the reviewers with requests.
        
         | ChadMoran wrote:
         | People will learn about accessibility, multi-platform
         | (mobile/desktop) and many other gotchas real quick.
         | 
         | This almost seems like this is a funnel to force people to
         | become software engineers.
        
           | atonse wrote:
           | But these are all things that can be added to context by a
           | dev.
           | 
           | Like:
           | 
           | - When making CSS changes, make sure that the code is
           | responsive. Add WCAG 2.0 attributes to any HTML markup.
           | 
           | - When making changes, run <some accessibility linter
           | command> to verify that the changes are valid.
           | 
           | etc.
           | 
           | The non-dev doesn't need to know/care.
        
             | lelandfe wrote:
             | There is no robust accessibility linter tool (axe covers
             | only a portion) and you don't want to add ARIA attributes
             | to all HTML markup. Both "accessible" and "responsive" are
             | ultimately subjective, and all code gen tools I've used are
             | more than happy to introduce startling a11y regressions.
             | 
             | It'll probably get there eventually, but today these are
             | not things solvable with context.
        
             | dwb wrote:
             | Accessibility isn't something that can be judged by a
             | program, not even close.
        
         | MangoCoffee wrote:
         | A.I. Assist is probably the ultimate low-code platform. Will it
         | be long before software engineers are replaced?
        
           | SketchySeaBeast wrote:
           | Assuming you works as a software engineer, is your day
           | actually just filled with writing what could be solved by a
           | low-code platform? Mine certainly isn't.
        
       | micromacrofoot wrote:
       | > Codex will support me and others in performing our work
       | effectively away from our desks.
       | 
       | This feels so hopelessly optimistic to me, because "effectively
       | away from our desks" for most people will mean "in the
       | unemployment line"
        
         | zackproser wrote:
         | Maybe, maybe that's FUD...I can't predict the future.
        
           | righthand wrote:
           | You can't predict the future or are choosing to ignore the
           | future?
           | 
           | Are you pretending that automation doesn't take away human
           | jobs?
        
             | sokoloff wrote:
             | When automation took away millions of farming jobs, I think
             | that was good for society and virtually every individual in
             | it.
        
               | jampekka wrote:
               | In aggregate it was good for society, but it was a
               | disaster for a lot of people and a lot of areas. This is
               | the theme of e.g. The Grapes of Wrath.
               | 
               | We should welcome automation and efficiency, but also
               | address the situation of the "losers" of the development
               | and not just expect the invisible hand will sort
               | everything out.
        
           | micromacrofoot wrote:
           | Yeah but if you look to the present... there aren't really
           | _any_ jobs where someone is blissfully wandering the earth
           | delegating tasks. Most of the time I can 't even take a walk
           | on calls because someone wants to screen share something with
           | me...
           | 
           | I'd like you to be right, but I live in society where joy at
           | work is often considered antithetical to productivity. No
           | matter how much more productive I get, that space is used to
           | fill in more productivity. We'll need more than tooling to
           | stop this.
        
         | ninininino wrote:
         | I guess maybe the analogy is we as software devs are all
         | horses.
         | 
         | With Codex and Claude Code, these model agents are cars.
         | 
         | Some of horses will become drivers of cars and some of us will
         | no longer be needed to pull wagons and will be out of a job.
         | 
         | Is that the proper framing?
        
           | allturtles wrote:
           | > Some of horses will become drivers of cars
           | 
           | An amusing image, but your analogy lost me here.
        
             | jimbokun wrote:
             | Guessing that's sarcasm.
        
             | ninininino wrote:
             | It's pretty intentional.
             | 
             | I think CEOs or PMs or Founders are like horse jockeys.
             | Devs are like horses. (Some of them are both the jockey and
             | the horse).
             | 
             | AI is a car. CEO or PM or Founder might smoothly swap out
             | the horse for a car and continue on with little change.
             | 
             | For the horse to become a driver of a car is a more
             | difficult challenge, but not impossible. It needs to
             | evolve.
        
         | chw9e wrote:
         | Think we've got a long time yet for that. We're going to be
         | writing code a lot faster but getting these things to 90-95% on
         | such a wide variety of tasks is going to be a monumental
         | effort, the first 60-70% on anything is always much easier than
         | the last 5-10%.
         | 
         | Also there's a matter of taste, as commented above, the best
         | way to use these is going to be running multiple runs at once
         | (that's going to be super expensive right now so we'll need
         | inference improvements on today's SOTA models to make this
         | something we can reasonably do on every task). Then somebody
         | needs to pick which run made the best code, and even then
         | you're going to want code review probably from a human if it's
         | written by machine.
         | 
         | Trusting the machine and just vibe coding stuff is fine for
         | small projects or maybe even smaller features, but for a
         | codebase that's going to be around for a while I expect we're
         | going to want a lot of human involvement in the architecture.
         | AI can help us explore different paths faster, but humans need
         | to be driving it still for quite some time - whether that's by
         | encoding their taste into other models or by manually reviewing
         | stuff, either way it's going to take maintenance work.
         | 
         | In the near-term, I expect engineering teams to start looking
         | for how to leverage background agents more. New engineering
         | flows need to be built around these and I am bearish on the
         | current status quo of just outsource everything to the beefiest
         | models and hope they can one-shot it. Reviewing a bunch of AI
         | code is also terrible and we have to find a better way of doing
         | that.
         | 
         | I expect since we're going to be stuck on figuring out
         | background agents for a while that teams will start to get in
         | the weeds and view these agents as critical infra that needs to
         | be designed and maintained in-house. For most companies,
         | foundation labs will just be an API call, not hosting the
         | agents themselves. There's a lot that can be done with agents
         | that hasn't been explored much at all yet, we're still super
         | early here and that's going to be where a lot of new
         | engineering infra work comes from in the next 3-5 years.
        
         | fhd2 wrote:
         | Well, the optimistic take is that if something gets cheaper to
         | produce (e.g. code), demand for it actually increases.
         | 
         | Now you could argue that any non technical person could just
         | oversee the agents instead. Possibly. Though in my experience,
         | humans like to have other humans they trust oversee and
         | understand important stuff for them.
        
         | darth_avocado wrote:
         | It is most definitely going to be the unemployment line. When
         | in the history of productivity gains, has it translated to more
         | time for people to do other things that are not work? It always
         | translates to more profits for shareholders and bigger pay for
         | executive class, followed by more work for half the workers to
         | fill up the time opened up by the said productivity gains, and
         | unemployment for the other half.
        
           | sokoloff wrote:
           | 200 years ago, 80% of Americans worked in farming. 150 years
           | ago, that was still over half. It's now under 2%.
           | 
           | If you've seen the work hours and work ethic of farmers, it's
           | safe to say that most of those people got other jobs that
           | take far less work than farmers did/do.
           | 
           | Closer to our field, I think we'd have far worse work lives
           | (fewer of us employed and much lower pay) if we had to code
           | everything in assembler still. The creation of more powerful
           | abstractions and languages allowed more of us to become
           | software devs and make a living this way than if all we had
           | were the less productive tools of the early days of
           | computing.
        
             | jampekka wrote:
             | From 200 years ago sure, but the link between productivity
             | growth and income growth got more or less broken in the
             | 1970's.
             | 
             | https://www.epi.org/productivity-pay-gap/
        
         | AstroBen wrote:
         | It's mind blowing to me how many developers are happy about the
         | developments here.. as if they're going to eventually be paid
         | to just sit there while agents do everything. Ah, work is now
         | so easy!
        
           | bilbo0s wrote:
           | I mean, I get what everyone's saying. But, just Devil's
           | Advocate, what would be so terrible about software developers
           | having to find some other line of work?
           | 
           | We've used our software development skills to automate other
           | people out of work for what can be argued to be literally
           | decades. Each time we did it, we certainly expected that the
           | people affected would find other work. New jobs were created.
           | The world didn't end. I honestly don't think it would be that
           | much worse this time.
        
             | AstroBen wrote:
             | > what would be so terrible about software developers
             | having to find some other line of work
             | 
             | Uh.. I'm having trouble considering this as a serious
             | question. It's objectively going to lead to them being in a
             | worse situation. Mostly irrelevant resume and needing to
             | re-skill into something and start from the bottom.. out of
             | a well paid career that many enjoy and find fulfilling
             | 
             | My question wasn't an ethical one. It's why are the people
             | that are the target of this automation happy about the
             | progress, to the point of trying to push it forward faster,
             | cheering it on
        
               | jampekka wrote:
               | I agree that with the current economic structures a lot
               | of us will end up worse off. Just like e.g. manufacturing
               | workers did.
               | 
               | But the automation is not the problem, it's the economic
               | structure in which increased efficiency makes a lot of
               | people worse off.
        
               | AstroBen wrote:
               | Yeah you're right. Improving productivity for society
               | _should_ be a really exciting time for everyone.. instead
               | we just leave the affected with nothing
        
             | palmotea wrote:
             | > We've used our software development skills to automate
             | other people out of work for what can be argued to be
             | literally decades.
             | 
             | And that's the shitty part of the job, and everyone should
             | be uncomfortable with it. I haven't literally automated
             | anyone out of a job (that I know), but I definitely did not
             | like finding out (after the fact) that one project was
             | meant to enable a large offshoring effort.
             | 
             | > Each time we did it, we certainly expected that the
             | people affected would find other work.
             | 
             | I do not expect that. That's a comforting lie people tell
             | themselves.
             | 
             | > New jobs were created. The world didn't end. I honestly
             | don't think it would be that much worse this time.
             | 
             | It didn't end, but it often got significantly worse for
             | some. If the AI hype pans out, it's going to get
             | significantly worse for software engineers. Your "newly
             | created job," if it exists, will likely pay out a lot less
             | that you're used to. At best, you'll get knocked down to
             | the bottom of the career ladder.
             | 
             | It's a mistake to think about things in aggregate like
             | you're doing. It's easy to hide inconvenient truths.
        
           | sokoloff wrote:
           | I think in the success case (still TBD), that it will
           | increase productivity to the point where things that can't be
           | affordably addressed by software will now be able to be
           | addressed with software.
           | 
           | I expect that anyone who is a skilled dev today will be fine.
           | Expectations and competition might be higher, but so will
           | production and value creation.
           | 
           | I think the demand will come, just as Excel didn't put
           | finance people out of jobs in aggregate.
        
             | micromacrofoot wrote:
             | when in history have workers ever been the primary
             | benefactors of productivity gains
        
               | sokoloff wrote:
               | Why would "primary benefactor" be the most relevant
               | question rather than mere "benefactor"? If my life is
               | improved by something, I don't care that someone else's
               | life is improved by more; I don't want to reject that
               | improvement out of spite.
               | 
               | Bankers (and customers) benefited from ATMs as far more
               | bank locations became economically sustainable and bank
               | tellers could do higher value work (and do so more
               | safely).
               | 
               | Millions of software developers continue to benefit from
               | improvements in productivity, the resulting value
               | creation, and the resulting high pay in our sector from
               | ever more productive languages and frameworks. Can you
               | imagine how little pay you'd make trying to sling
               | websites in assembly language at less than 1% of the pace
               | of today?
        
           | palmotea wrote:
           | > It's mind blowing to me how many developers are happy about
           | the developments here.. as if they're going to eventually be
           | paid to just sit there while agents do everything. Ah, work
           | is now so easy!
           | 
           | Software engineers are dumb. Really dumb.
        
       | avital wrote:
       | I work at OpenAI (not on Codex) and have used it successfully for
       | multiple projects so far. Here's my flow:
       | 
       | - Always run more than one rollout of the same prompt -- they
       | will turn out different
       | 
       | - Look through the parallel implementations, see which is best
       | (even if it's not good enough), then figure out what changes to
       | your prompt would have helped nudge towards the better solution.
       | 
       | - In addition, add new modifications to the prompt to resolve the
       | parts that the model didn't do correctly.
       | 
       | - Repeat loop until the code is good enough.
       | 
       | If you do this and also split your work into smaller
       | parallelizable chunks, you can find yourself spending a few hours
       | only looping between prompt tuning and code review with massive
       | projects implemented in a short period of time.
       | 
       | I've used this for "API munging" but also pretty deep Triton
       | kernel code and it's been massive.
        
         | owebmaster wrote:
         | Can it be used to fix bugs? Because the ChatGPT web app is full
         | of them and I don't think they are getting fixed. Pasting big
         | amounts of text freezing the tab is one of them.
        
           | dimal wrote:
           | Bugs? Those are grubby human work.
           | 
           | Seriously, everyone should get good at fixing bugs. LLMs are
           | terrible at it when it's slightly non-obvious and since
           | everyone is focusing on vibe coding, I doubt they'll get any
           | better.
        
           | jampekka wrote:
           | The Android app is even worse.
        
         | ionwake wrote:
         | You guys are doing great work, codex too, keep at it.
        
         | th0ma5 wrote:
         | Do you find yourself ditching on the things when they change
         | something important with the new prompt? I don't get how people
         | aren't absolutely exhausted by actually implementing this
         | prompt messing advice when I thought there were studies saying
         | small seemingly insignificant changes greatly change the
         | result, hide blind spots, and even having a prompt for
         | engineering a better prompt has knock on increases in
         | instability. Do people just have a higher tolerance for doing
         | work that is not related to the problem than I do? Perhaps I
         | only work on stuff there is no prior example for, but every few
         | days I read someone's anecdote on here and get discouraged in
         | all new ways.
        
           | avital wrote:
           | Not to downplay the issue you raise but I haven't noticed
           | this.
           | 
           | Every iteration I make on the prompts only make the request
           | more specified and narrow and it's always gotten me closer to
           | my desired goal for the PR. (But I do just ditch the worse
           | attempts at each iteration cycle)
           | 
           | Is it possible that reasoning models combined with the actual
           | interaction with the real codebase makes this "prompt
           | fragility" issue you speak of less common?
        
             | th0ma5 wrote:
             | No, I've played with all the reasoning models and they just
             | make the noise and weirdness even worse. When I dig into
             | every little issue, it's always something incredibly
             | bespoke. Like the actual documentation that's on the
             | internet is out of date for the library that was installed
             | and the API changed, the way the one library works in one
             | language is not how it works in the other language, just
             | all manner of surprising things. I really learned a lot
             | about the limits of digital representation of information.
        
         | csmpltn wrote:
         | > "Look through the parallel implementations, see which is best
         | (even if it's not good enough), then figure out what changes to
         | your prompt would have helped nudge towards the better
         | solution."
         | 
         | How can non-technical people tell what's "best"? You need to
         | know what you're doing at this point, look for the right
         | pitfalls, inspect everything in detail... this right here is
         | the entire counter-argument for LLMs eliminating SWE jobs...
        
           | throwuxiytayq wrote:
           | I don't think anyone expects software engineers will
           | _disappear_ and get replaced by janitors trained to proompt.
           | I'm sure experts will stick around until the singularity
           | curve starts looking funny. It's probably gonna suck to enter
           | the industry from now on, though.
        
             | dingnuts wrote:
             | > I don't think anyone expects software engineers will
             | disappear
             | 
             | holy gaslighting Christ have some links, lots of people
             | think that
             | 
             | https://www.reddit.com/r/ITCareerQuestions/comments/126v3pm
             | /...
             | 
             | https://medium.com/technology-hits/the-death-of-coding-
             | why-c...
             | 
             | https://medium.com/@TheRobertKiyosaki/are-programmers-
             | obsole...
             | 
             | https://www.forbes.com/sites/hessiejones/2024/09/21/the-
             | auto...
             | 
             | and on and on, endless thinkpieces about this. Certainly
             | SOMEONE, someone with a lot of money, thinks software
             | engineers are imminently replaceable.
             | 
             | > until the singularity curve starts looking funny.
             | 
             | well there's absolutely no evidence whatsoever that we've
             | made any progress to bringing about Kurzweil's God so I
             | think regardless of what Sam Altman wants you to believe
             | about "general AI" or those thinkpieces, experts are
             | probably okay.
        
               | cdolan wrote:
               | I think you are correct that people say this, but its
               | absurd that they are saying it in the first place.
               | 
               | Coding/engineering/etc is all problem solving in a
               | strucutred manner.
               | 
               | That skill is not going anywhere
        
               | dingnuts wrote:
               | oh I agree but the last three years has felt like an
               | endless chorus of people telling me SWE was going to be
               | obsolete very soon so I had to push back against the idea
               | that "nobody" thinks that.
               | 
               | I wouldn't have to listen to people talk about it all the
               | time if nobody thought it was true
        
               | daveguy wrote:
               | (not GP) To be fair, just because someone says something
               | doesn't mean they believe it. Most of those folks have to
               | know they're being absurd. But I agree saying "nobody"
               | thinks something is over the top. People on the internet
               | can be quite looney tunes.
        
             | schainks wrote:
             | > proompt
             | 
             | The verb you use when you only need to produce boilerplate.
             | 
             | > Prompt(tm)
             | 
             | The verb you use when it's time to innovate.
        
             | jazzyjackson wrote:
             | Well, right, how does one become a senior engineer in a
             | world where no one needs to hire a junior? I'm sure many
             | other industries have experiences this already, where the
             | only people who know anything retire and the people are
             | left maintaining a system they could not rebuild such that
             | when something goes wrong the only practicable choice is to
             | replace it with new equipment.
             | 
             | That's where I see AI-written software going, write-once.
             | Some talented engineer gets an AI system to create a whole
             | k8s cluster to run an application and if any changes need
             | to be made, bugs fixed, it will take another talented
             | engineer to come in and have an AI write a replacement and
             | throw out the old one.
             | 
             | Reminds me of this blog, _The real value isn't in the code_
             | [0], we 're heading for a world that is only code and no
             | one who knows what it does. But maybe it won't matter.
             | 
             | [0] https://jonayre.uk/blog/2022/10/30/the-real-value-isnt-
             | in-th...
        
           | diggan wrote:
           | > How can non-technical people tell what's "best"? You need
           | to know what you're doing at this point, look for the right
           | pitfalls, inspect everything in detail... this right here is
           | the entire counter-argument for LLMs eliminating SWE jobs...
           | 
           | I'm not sure a tool that positions itself as a "programmer
           | co-worker" is aiming to be useful to non-technical people.
           | I've said it before, but I don't think LLMs currently are at
           | the stage where they enable you to do things you have 0
           | experience in, but rather can help you speed up working
           | through things you are familiar with. I think people who
           | claim LLMs will completely replace jobs are hyping the
           | technology without really understanding it.
           | 
           | For example, I'm a programmer, but never done any firmware
           | flashing with UART before via a USB flasher. Today I managed
           | to do that in 1-2 hours thanks to ChatGPT helping me out
           | understanding how to do it. If I'd do it completely on my
           | own, I'm sure it would have taken me at least the full day to
           | do so, instead of the time it took. I was able to see when it
           | got mislead, and could rewrite/redirect from there on, but
           | someone with 0 programming experience, probably wouldn't have
           | been able to.
        
         | ivraatiems wrote:
         | How much faster is this than simply writing the code yourself?
        
           | avital wrote:
           | Easily 5-10x or even more in certain special cases (when it'd
           | take me a lot of upfront effort to get context on some
           | problem domain). And it can do all the "P2"s that I'd
           | realistically never get to. There was a day where I landed 7
           | small-to-medium-size pull requests before lunch.
           | 
           | There are also cases where it fails to do what I wanted, and
           | then I just stop trying after a few iterations. But I've
           | learned what to expect it to do well in and I am mostly
           | calibrated now.
           | 
           | The biggest difference is that I can have agents working on
           | 3-4 parallel tasks at any given point.
        
           | thearn4 wrote:
           | I end up asking the same question when experimenting with
           | tools like Cursor. When it can one-shot a small feature, it
           | works like magic. When it struggles, and the context gets
           | poisoned and I have to roll back commits and retry part of
           | the way through something, it hits a point where it was
           | probably easier for me to just write it. Or maybe template it
           | and have it finish it. Or vice versa. I guess the point being
           | that best practices have yet to truly be established, but
           | totally hands-off uses have not worked well for me so far.
        
             | sunnybeetroot wrote:
             | Why commit halfway through implementing something with
             | Cursor? Can you not wait until it's created a feature or
             | task that has been validated and tests written for it?
        
               | daveguy wrote:
               | Why not create a branch and rollback only what needs to
               | be rolled back? Branches are O(1) with git, right?
        
               | sunnybeetroot wrote:
               | OP was insinuating that rolling back commits is a pain
               | point.
        
           | dgunay wrote:
           | At the current capabilities of most LLMs + my personal
           | tolerance for slop, the most productive workflow seems to be:
           | spin up multiple agents in the background to work on small
           | scope, straightforward tasks while I work on something bigger
           | that requires more exploration, requirements gathering, or
           | just plain more complex/broad changes to the code. Review the
           | output of the agents or unstick them when there is downtime.
           | 
           | IMO just keeping an IDE window open and babysitting an agent
           | while it works is less productive than just writing the code
           | mostly yourself with AI assistance in the form of
           | autocomplete and maybe highly targeted oneshots using manual
           | context provided "Edit" mode or inline prompting.
           | 
           | My company is dragging their feet on AI governance and let
           | the OpenAI key I was using expire, and what I noticed was
           | that my output of small QoL PRs and bugfixes dropped
           | drastically because my attention remains focused on higher
           | impact work.
        
         | yieldcrv wrote:
         | how much would this cost you if you didn't work at OpenAI?
        
           | avital wrote:
           | I think the Pro plan is $200/mo for everyone? (But honestly I
           | don't know the GPU cost and I'm interested in this question)
        
       | rmonvfer wrote:
       | I was a Plus subscriber and upgraded to Pro just to test Codex,
       | and at least in my experience, it's been pretty underwhelming.
       | 
       | First, I don't think they got the UX quite right yet. Having to
       | wait for an undefined amount of time before getting a result is
       | definitely not the best, although the async nature of Codex seems
       | to alleviate this issue (that is, being able to run multiple
       | tasks at once).
       | 
       | Another thing that bugs me is having to define an environment for
       | the tool to be useful. This is very problematic because AFAIK,
       | you can't spin up containers that might be needed in tests,
       | severely limiting its usefulness. I guess this will eventually
       | change, but the fact that it's also completely isolated from the
       | internet seems limiting, as one of the reasons o3 is so powerful
       | in ChatGPT is because it can autonomously research using the web
       | to find updated information on whatever you need.
       | 
       | For comparison, I also use Claude a lot, and I've found it to
       | work really well to find obscure bugs in a somewhat complex React
       | application by creating a project and adding the GitHub repo as a
       | source. What this allows me is to have a very short wait time,
       | and the difference with Codex is just night and day. Gemini also
       | allows you to do this now, and it works very well because of its
       | massive context window.
       | 
       | All that being said, I do understand where OpenAI is going with
       | this. I guess they want to achieve something like a real coworker
       | (they even say that in their promotional videos for Codex)
       | because you are supposed to give tasks to Codex and wait until
       | it's done, like a real human, but again, IMHO, it's too "pull-
       | request-focused"
       | 
       | I guess I'll be downgrading to Plus again and wait a little to
       | see where this ends up.
        
         | anxman wrote:
         | It really needs container support
        
       | ramesh31 wrote:
       | Needs checkpointing. A full git commit is too much... commitment.
       | Often you'll go down a bad path with agentic codegen that just
       | falls apart, and you wont know where you wanted to return to
       | until you're there. I'm very skeptical of the "automated PR"
       | solutions at the moment. Too much time and money is lost to trust
       | singleshot yet. And if you still need a human in the loop, best
       | to do it in realtime with constant feedback, i.e. cybernetics not
       | automata.
        
       | teekert wrote:
       | "As I wrote about in Walking and talking with AI in the woods,
       | ideally I'd like to start my morning in an office, launch a bunch
       | of tasks, get some planning out of the way, and then step out for
       | a long walk in nature."
       | 
       | Wouldn't we all want that, but it sounds like you can leave task
       | launching and planning to an AI and go find another career.
        
       | bathtub365 wrote:
       | Is there anywhere that lists what languages this supports? They
       | aren't listed in the product announcement or in this review, and
       | the review examples seem to mostly be fixing typos on webpages.
        
       | yieldcrv wrote:
       | > Codex then clones your repositories into its own sandboxes so
       | it can run commands and create branches on your behalf.
       | 
       | Slurping up trade secrets
       | 
       | but maybe I'll sound like the people that are afraid of using
       | github and other cloud git protocols
       | 
       | interesting crossroads
        
       | theowijrhrjrj48 wrote:
       | Sounds like a gptel-tool one can whip up in a week.
        
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