[HN Gopher] AI's energy footprint
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       AI's energy footprint
        
       Author : pseudolus
       Score  : 83 points
       Date   : 2025-05-20 10:07 UTC (12 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.technologyreview.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.technologyreview.com)
        
       | mentalgear wrote:
       | When companies make ESG claims, sensible measurement and open
       | traceability should always be the first proof they must provide.
       | Without these, and validation from a credible independent entity
       | such as a non-profit or government agency, all ESG claims from
       | companies are merely PR puff pieces to keep the public at bay
       | (especially in "AI").
        
         | stevage wrote:
         | esg?
        
           | JohnFen wrote:
           | Environmental/Social/Governance. From Wikipedia:
           | 
           | Environmental, social, and governance (ESG) is shorthand for
           | an investing principle that prioritizes environmental issues,
           | social issues, and corporate governance.
        
         | kkarakk wrote:
         | when has ESG not been FUD or a way to bypass sanctions from
         | poorly thought out climate change targets?
        
       | mg wrote:
       | The brain uses 20% of the human body's energy.
       | 
       | I wouldn't be surprised if mankind will evolve similar to an
       | organism and use 20% of all energy it produces on AI. Which is
       | about 10x of what we use for software at the moment.
       | 
       | But then more AI also means more physical activity. When robots
       | drive cars, we will have more cars driving around. When robots
       | build houses, we will have more houses being built, etc. So
       | energy usage will probably go up exponentially.
       | 
       | At the moment, the sun sends more energy to earth in an hour than
       | humans use in a year. So the sun alone will be able to power this
       | for the foreseeable future.
        
         | amelius wrote:
         | One problem: all this energy is eventually turned into heat ...
        
           | mg wrote:
           | Most of the sunlight that hits a roof is already turned into
           | heat. Whether you use that for calculations or not does not
           | make a difference.
           | 
           | Not sure about the exact numbers, but I guess that at the
           | moment normal roofs and solar panels absorb very roughly
           | about the same percentage of sunlight.
           | 
           | So if in the future solar panels become more efficient, then
           | yes, the amount of sunlight turned into heat could double.
           | 
           | Maybe that can be offset by covering other parts of earth
           | with reflective materials or finding a way to send the heat
           | back into the universe more effectively.
        
             | amelius wrote:
             | What if you put a solar farm in a desert, though?
             | 
             | And also, people should paint their roofs white.
        
         | vmg12 wrote:
         | > When robots drive cars, we will have more cars driving around
         | 
         | This doesn't seem true. In SF, waymo with 300 cars does more
         | rides than lyft with 45k drivers. If self driving cars
         | interleave different tasks based on their routes I imagine they
         | would be much more efficient per mile.
        
           | mg wrote:
           | Existing rides will be done more efficiently but since rides
           | are so much cheaper without a driver, much more rides will be
           | done.
           | 
           | A car driving from A to B will cost less than 50% of the
           | current price. Which will unlock a huge amount of new rides.
        
           | 0_____0 wrote:
           | Is it really only 300 cars? They feel like they're
           | everywhere!
        
             | simonw wrote:
             | I thought it was more than that too, but according to
             | https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-
             | transportation/alphab...
             | 
             | > _With more than 700 vehicles in its fleet - 300 of which
             | operate in San Francisco - Waymo is the only U.S. firm that
             | runs uncrewed robotaxis that collect fares._
             | 
             | Those numbers are from April 2025.
        
               | floxy wrote:
               | >We've also incrementally grown our commercial fleet as
               | we've welcomed more riders, with over 1,500 vehicles
               | across San Francisco, Los Angeles, Phoenix, and Austin.
               | 
               | https://waymo.com/blog/2025/05/scaling-our-fleet-through-
               | us-...
        
           | asdff wrote:
           | If waymo is doing more rides with 300 cars than 45k drivers
           | on lyft, we can assume then that waymo cars are on the road
           | serving customers at least 150x as long of time as a lyft
           | driver. So yes it could really mean more cars are "around"
           | even if the fleet is much smaller.
        
           | floxy wrote:
           | >This doesn't seem true.
           | 
           | Seems like we are way too early in the adoption curve to
           | tell. Currently the average number of passengers per trip is
           | >1.0 across the whole fleet. Some day, I'd expect that to dip
           | below 1.0, as people send an empty car to pick up the dog
           | from the vet, or circle the block to avoid having to pay for
           | parking, etc.
        
         | HelloUsername wrote:
         | > energy usage will probably go up exponentially
         | 
         | kindof sounds like Jevons paradox?
         | https://wiki.froth.zone/wiki/Jevons_paradox
        
         | briandear wrote:
         | Why not nuclear?
        
           | mg wrote:
           | Building and running a nuclear reactor involves a lot of
           | physical activity. And if the past is an indicator, we always
           | move from physical activity to the flow of electrons.
           | 
           | The discussion about nuclear vs solar remind me of the
           | discussions about spinning HDs versus solid state drives when
           | they were new.
        
             | carunenjoyerlp wrote:
             | HDDs build the backbone of all large storage systems, they
             | serve many purposes today. Magnetic tape is still in use
             | too
        
         | Scarblac wrote:
         | But the article says that energy use by AI is 48% _more_ carbon
         | intensive than the US average. So talk of solar power is a red
         | herring -- that 's not what it is running on now.
        
           | mg wrote:
           | I am thinking about the future here.
           | 
           | I don't think there will be much carbon intensive energy
           | creation in a few decades from now. It does not make sense
           | economically.
        
             | Scarblac wrote:
             | You said "for the foreseeable future", which I interpret as
             | being about now.
             | 
             | Anyway I hope you're right, but so far global CO2 output is
             | still growing. All the other energy has only come on top of
             | carbon intensive energy, it hasn't replaced any of it.
             | Every time we build more, we find new ways of spending that
             | much energy and more.
        
               | mg wrote:
               | Seeing 20 years into the future is quite possible in some
               | aspects.
               | 
               | I remember how me and my friends discovered email in 1999
               | and were like "Yay, in the future we'll all do this
               | instead of sending letters!". And it took about 20 years
               | until letters were largely replaced by email and the web.
               | And when the first videos appeared on the web, it was
               | quite clear to us that they would replace DVDs.
               | 
               | Similar with the advent of self driving cars and solar
               | energy I think.
        
         | asdff wrote:
         | This assumes no technological adaptions towards efficiency.
         | Consider yourself walking a mile and the energy expenditure. It
         | isn't insignificant. Now imagine you have a bicycle. Some
         | bicyclists will train and do century rides, a distance that
         | were never possible merely walking for a day. But these are few
         | bikers overall, most will not maximize capability to that
         | extent but will still be taking advantage of the efficiency of
         | the bike.
        
       | adrianN wrote:
       | The important part remains internalizing emission costs into the
       | price of electricity. Fussing over individual users seems like a
       | distraction to me. Rapid decarbonization of electricity is
       | necessary regardless of who uses it. Demand will soar anyway as
       | we electrify transportation, heating, and industry.
        
         | seb1204 wrote:
         | I agree but reducing consumption or increase of efficiency are
         | still very important aspects of the energy transition. What is
         | not consumed does not need to be generated.
        
           | adrianN wrote:
           | Yeah, but pricing signals are a good way of reaching those
           | goals.
        
           | Scarblac wrote:
           | Businesses will only start doing that in significant amounts
           | when carbon emissions are priced according to their
           | environmental impact.
        
           | Lerc wrote:
           | I don't think it a given that reducing energy consumption is
           | a required part of the transition.
           | 
           | Increasing demand can lead to stimulus of green energy
           | production.
        
             | Uehreka wrote:
             | There's no rule that increased demand will necessarily
             | stimulate green energy production, only that it will
             | stimulate energy production. And getting people to care
             | about climate gets tougher, not easier, when energy demand
             | goes up.
        
           | 0_____0 wrote:
           | Sometimes I see chatter about using solar or nuclear or
           | whatever power for data centers, thereby making them "clean,"
           | and it's frustrating that there isn't always the
           | acknowledgement that the clean energy could displace other
           | dirty generation.
           | 
           | Even with things like orphaned natural gas that gets flared
           | otherwise - rescuing the energy is great but we could use it
           | for many things, not just LLMs or bitcoin mining!
        
           | nostrademons wrote:
           | If you internalize emissions costs into the price of
           | electricity, reduced consumption will happen naturally.
           | Precisely nobody likes higher energy bills, so there's a
           | natural incentive to reduce consumption as long as you're
           | paying for it.
        
             | delusional wrote:
             | "internalizing emissions" is the kind of thing that's
             | really easy to say, even conceptualize, but really
             | difficult to implement.
             | 
             | You could do it better than we are doing now, but you'll
             | always have people saying: "that's unfair, why are you
             | picking on me"
        
       | Proofread0592 wrote:
       | > When you ask an AI model to write you a joke or generate a
       | video of a puppy, that query comes with a small but measurable
       | energy toll and an associated amount of emissions spewed into the
       | atmosphere. Given that each individual request often uses less
       | energy than running a kitchen appliance for a few moments, it may
       | seem insignificant.
       | 
       | > But as more of us turn to AI tools, these impacts start to add
       | up. And increasingly, you don't need to go looking to use AI:
       | It's being integrated into every corner of our digital lives.
       | 
       | Forward looking, I imagine this will be the biggest factor in
       | increasing energy demands for AI: companies shoving it into
       | products that nobody wants or needs.
        
         | Uehreka wrote:
         | In the short term perhaps, but even without carbon pricing the
         | raw electricity prices will probably tamp down the enthusiasm.
         | At someone point it'll become cool for activist investors to
         | demand to see ROI for AI features on earnings calls, and then
         | the fat will get trimmed just like any other trend that goes
         | too far.
         | 
         | I think the bigger underrated concern is if LLMs fall into an
         | unfortunate bucket where they are in fact generally useful, but
         | not in ways that help us decarbonize our energy supply (or that
         | do, but not enough to offset their own energy usage).
        
         | keybored wrote:
         | Try to buy something that isn't wrapped in three layers of
         | plastic. Or that isn't made of plastic itself. Then go to the
         | checkout and see their "PSA" about how asking for a plastic bag
         | to carry your plastic merchandise kills the planet.
         | 
         | I'm sorry. I'm being blocked by some mysterious force from
         | understanding what "actual human" means. And I don't know how
         | to get you in contact with your car manufacturer. Would you
         | like me to repeat my 20 step suggestion on how to troubleshoot
         | "why does my shitty car put the A/C on freezer mode whenever
         | "Indian Summer" tops the charts in Bulgaria", but with more
         | festive emojis?
        
       | BewareTheYiga wrote:
       | http://archive.today/mnHb8
        
       | mark_l_watson wrote:
       | The book "AI Atlas" covers the energy and other costs of AI.
        
         | emushack wrote:
         | Link?
        
         | simonw wrote:
         | You mean this one? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_of_AI
         | 
         | It's from 2021 so won't cover the 2022-onwards generative AI
         | boom.
         | 
         | From the Wikipedia summary it sounds like it's about machine
         | learning algorithms like classification, AlphaGo and concerns
         | about ethics of training and bias.
        
       | briandear wrote:
       | What's the net energy footprint of an employee working in an
       | office whose job was made redundant by AI? Of course that human
       | will likely have another job, but what's the math of a person who
       | was doing tedium solved by AI and now can do something more
       | productive that AI can't necessarily do. In other words, let's
       | calculate the "economic output per energy unit expended."
       | 
       | On that note, what's the energy footprint of the return to office
       | initiatives that many companies have initiated?
        
         | Scarblac wrote:
         | When human civilization crashes due to yearly climate change
         | caused famines it won't matter how useful the work done by the
         | AIs was.
        
         | folkrav wrote:
         | > Of course that human will likely have another job, but what's
         | the math of a person who was doing tedium solved by AI and now
         | can do something more productive that AI can't necessarily do
         | 
         | That's a lot of big assumptions - that the job getting replaced
         | was tedious in the first place, that those other "more
         | productive" job exists, that the thing AI can't necessarily do
         | will stay that way long enough for it not to be taken over by
         | AI as well, that the tediousness was not part of the point
         | (e.g. art)...
        
         | carunenjoyerlp wrote:
         | Net energy change of people doing work on their desk versus
         | browsing the internet versus playing games, you will likely not
         | see difference at all. They're all at rest, more or less
         | thinking something. People at home sofa always have metabolic
         | processes running regardless of whether it produces additional
         | value to some corporation
        
         | lm28469 wrote:
         | > a person who was doing tedium solved by AI and now can do
         | something more productive that AI can't necessarily do.
         | 
         | Like driving a uber or delivering food on a bicycle ? Amazing!
        
       | est31 wrote:
       | I wonder how the energy requirements are distributed between
       | training and inference. Training should be extremely flexible, so
       | one can only train when the sun shines and nobody uses the huge
       | amount of solar power, or only when the wind turbines turn.
        
         | jnsaff2 wrote:
         | AFAICT the energy cost of training is still fairly low compared
         | to cost of GPU's themselves so especially during a land grab
         | it's important to drive as near as possible full utilization of
         | the GPU's, energy be damned.
         | 
         | I doubt this is going to change.
         | 
         | That said, the flip side of energy cost being not a big factor
         | is that you could probably eat the increase of energy cost by a
         | factor of say 2 and this could possibly enable installation of
         | short term (say 12h) battery storage to enable you to use only
         | intermittent clean energy AND drive 100% utilization.
        
       | carunenjoyerlp wrote:
       | >you might think it's like measuring a car's fuel economy or a
       | dishwasher's energy rating: a knowable value with a shared
       | methodology for calculating it. You'd be wrong.
       | 
       | But everyone knows fuel economy is everything but a knowable
       | value. Everything from if it has rained in the past four hours to
       | temperature to loading of the vehicle to the chemical composition
       | of the fuel (HVO vs traditional), how worn are your tires? Are
       | they installed the right way? Are your brakes lagging? The
       | possibilities are endless. You could end up with twice the
       | consumption.
       | 
       | By the way, copy-pasting from the website is terrible on desktop
       | firefox, the site just lags every second, for a second.
        
         | GuinansEyebrows wrote:
         | fuel economy, like blood glucose levels, is impacted by many
         | factors, but you can measure it over time. you might not be
         | able to prescribe a course of action but you can make
         | corrections to the course you're already on.
        
       | emushack wrote:
       | I would like to see more data centers make use of large-scale Oil
       | Immersion-Cooling. I feel like the fresh water use for cooling is
       | a huge issue.
       | 
       | https://par.nsf.gov/servlets/purl/10101126
        
         | carunenjoyerlp wrote:
         | Isn't water just the transfer medium between the server and the
         | heat exchangers outside? How would changing that to oil help?
        
           | chneu wrote:
           | It wouldn't really help.
           | 
           | Oil might be able to carry more heat but it's more expensive
           | to use.
           | 
           | Oil immersion is something nerds like to think is amazing but
           | it's just a pain in the ass for negligible benefits. Imagine
           | the annoyance of doing maintenance.
        
             | asdff wrote:
             | Wouldn't it be no different but your hands get a little
             | oily? Say you take out a ram stick, oil goes into the empty
             | dimm slot, but so what because its displaced again when you
             | put in the new ram stick.
        
         | lxgr wrote:
         | There are various data center cooling techniques, and not all
         | of them use water. As a result, water usage, and water usage
         | efficiency, vary wildly:
         | 
         | https://dgtlinfra.com/data-center-water-usage/
         | 
         | https://datacenters.microsoft.com/sustainability/efficiency/
        
       | giantg2 wrote:
       | With all the issues and inefficiencies listed, there is a lot of
       | room for improvement. I'm hopeful that just as the stat they give
       | for data center energy not rising from 2005-2017, so to will the
       | AI energy needs flatten in a few years. GPUs are not very
       | efficient. Switching to more task specific hardware will provide
       | more efficiency eventually. This is already happening a little
       | with stuff like TPUs.
        
       | Lerc wrote:
       | The point that stood out to me as concerning was
       | 
       |  _" The carbon intensity of electricity used by data centers was
       | 48% higher than the US average."_
       | 
       | I'd be fine with as many data centers as they want if they
       | stimulated production of clean energy to run them.
       | 
       | But that quote links to another article by the same author. Which
       | says
       | 
       |  _" Notably, the sources for all this power are particularly
       | "dirty." Since so many data centers are located in coal-producing
       | regions, like Virginia, the "carbon intensity" of the energy they
       | use is 48% higher than the national average. The paper, which was
       | published on arXiv and has not yet been peer-reviewed, found that
       | 95% of data centers in the US are built in places with sources of
       | electricity that are dirtier than the national average. _"
       | 
       | Which in turn links to https://arxiv.org/abs/2411.09786
       | 
       | Which puts the bulk of that 48% higher claim on
       | 
       |  _" The average carbon intensity of the US data centers in our
       | study (weighted by the energy they consumed) was 548 grams of
       | CO2e per kilowatt hour (kWh), approximately 48% higher than the
       | US national average of 369 gCO2e / kWh (26)."_
       | 
       | Which points to https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/carbon-
       | intensity-electric...
       | 
       | For the average of 369g/KWh. That's close enough to the figure in
       | the table at
       | https://www.epa.gov/system/files/documents/2024-01/egrid2022...
       | 
       | which shows 375g/KWh (after converting from lb/MWh)
       | 
       | But the table they compare against shows.                   VA
       | 576g/KWh         TX 509g/KWh         CA 374g/KWh
       | 
       | and the EPA table shows                   VA 268g/KWh         TX
       | 372g/KWh         CA 207g/KWh
       | 
       | Which seem more likely to be true. The paper has California at
       | only marginally better than the national average for renewables
       | (Which I guess they needed to support their argument given the
       | number of data centers there)
       | 
       | I like arxiv, It's a great place to see new ideas, the fields I
       | look at have things that I can test myself to see if the idea
       | actually works. I would not recommend it as a source of truth.
       | Peer review still has a place.
       | 
       | If they were gathering emissions data from states themselves,
       | they should have caclulated the average from that data, not
       | pulled the average from another potentially completely different
       | measure. Then their conclusions would have been valid regardless
       | what weird scaling factor they bought in to their state
       | calculations. The numbers might have been wrong but the
       | proportion would have been accurate, and it is the proportion
       | that is being highlighted.
        
         | GuinansEyebrows wrote:
         | there are still negative externalities to high renewable-energy
         | usage (heat and water usage, which itself requires energy to
         | purify once returned to the sewer, plus the environmental
         | impact of building an enormous heat island in places where
         | there was little industry previously).
        
       | SoftTalker wrote:
       | If you are old enough you remember posting to Usenet and the
       | warning that would accompany each new submission:
       | 
       |  _This program posts news to thousands of machines throughout the
       | entire civilized world. Your message will cost the net hundreds
       | if not thousands of dollars to send everywhere. Please be sure
       | you know what you are doing. Are you absolutely sure that you
       | want to do this? [ny]_
       | 
       | Maybe we meed something similar in LLM clients. Could be phrased
       | in terms of how many pounds of atmospheric carbon the request
       | will produce.
        
         | wmf wrote:
         | Only if that same warning is attached to literally everything
         | else you do. It's unfair to single out AI for using energy.
        
           | SoftTalker wrote:
           | But "asking ChatGPT" is something people do so casually
           | without there being any apparent clues of the costs
           | associated with that. I guess that is true of pretty much
           | everything online though.
           | 
           | Even driving your car around you at least are somewhat aware
           | of the gas you are burning.
        
             | asdff wrote:
             | That could be solved by charging more for the service. That
             | is the only reason you are aware of the gas burning after
             | all, you aren't conducting your own aq test you are
             | noticing you are filling up twice a week at $50 a tank.
        
             | appreciatorBus wrote:
             | I would bet most ppl drive around with very little
             | awareness of how much it's costing, either in money or
             | environmental impact. Many people I've met seem to measure
             | efficiency by how much it costs to fill up the tank.
        
             | phillipcarter wrote:
             | They're aware of the price they pay for the gas, not the
             | emissions. I would wager that the mass ignorance of the
             | impact of fossil fuels (and rubber on roads) that the
             | broader population has is a significant reason why we're in
             | this climate mess today.
        
               | jbm wrote:
               | > rubber on roads
               | 
               | Funny how this suddenly became a thing after
               | electrification became a thing. Need to find a new way to
               | wag the finger after all.
        
               | 01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote:
               | Well many of my fellow Americans would only accept an EV
               | if it's gigantic, and even though I can't leave the house
               | without seeing a Prius or a RAV4 hybrid, the news acts
               | like it's gas versus electric as if Toyota hadn't solved
               | this twenty years ago
        
               | phillipcarter wrote:
               | It's always been a thing? I'm pro-electrification, BTW.
        
               | keybored wrote:
               | You would wager. Based on what?
               | 
               | There's been decades of lies about climate change. And
               | once the truth got out society was already massively
               | dependent on it. For cars specifically it was a
               | deliberate policy to make e.g. the US car-dependent. And
               | once the truth got undeniable the cope was switched to
               | people's "carbon footprint" (British Petroleum). In fact
               | there are rumors that the cope echoes to this day.
               | 
               | Zoom out enough and it becomes obviously unproductive to
               | make "mass ignorance" the locus of attention.
        
             | wmf wrote:
             | "Civilization advances by extending the number of important
             | operations which we can perform without thinking of them."
             | -- Alfred North Whitehead
             | 
             | Emissions should be fixed on the production side
             | (decarbonization) not on the demand side (guilt/austerity).
        
             | marcellus23 wrote:
             | https://simonwillison.net/2025/May/6/whats-the-carbon-
             | footpr...
        
           | GuinansEyebrows wrote:
           | fairness to one polluter over another isn't the real issue -
           | look at prop 65 in california; or if you're not used to this
           | in CA, think of any time you've been on-call. alert fatigue
           | is real and diminishes the urgency of the underlying message.
        
           | reaperducer wrote:
           | _It 's unfair to single out AI for using energy._
           | 
           | Why? AI isn't a human being. We have no obligation to be
           | "fair" to it.
        
         | yongjik wrote:
         | A lot of us live in a country where "rolling coal" is a thing.
         | I fear your prompt may have an opposite of the intended effect.
        
           | 01HNNWZ0MV43FF wrote:
           | Taxing anything that can pollute (methane, gasoline, diesel)
           | would let The Hand sort it out
        
             | freeone3000 wrote:
             | Carbon taxes are incredibly unpopular, because it makes
             | easy and convenient things expensive.
        
         | blkhawk wrote:
         | I find that message very curious because the message itself
         | clearly does not cost much but the machines it is send on do.
         | So the more messages that are send the less the messages will
         | cost.
        
         | keybored wrote:
         | You don't need it for any pragmatic benefit because it won't
         | work. It doesn't work for eating meat. It won't work for AI.
         | 
         | The only purpose is to scapegoat the possible environmental or
         | economic fallout. Might as well put it on individuals. Like
         | what's always done.
         | 
         | I've already seen it on the national broadcast. There some
         | supposed experts were wagging their fingers about using AI for
         | "fun". Making silly images.
         | 
         | Meanwhile we're gonna put AI to good use in arms races: more
         | spam (automated applications, ads, ads, ads, abuse of services)
         | and anti-spam. There's gonna be so much economic activity.
         | Disruptive.
        
         | kmeisthax wrote:
         | Individual LLM requests are vanishingly small in terms of
         | environmental impact; inference providers use a _lot_ of
         | batching to do lots of work at once. Furthermore, LLMs and
         | diffusion models are not the only ML workload. While generative
         | AI tickles investors, most of the ML actually being deployed is
         | more mundane things, like recommendation systems, classifiers,
         | and the like; much of which is used for adtech purposes
         | adversarial to that of users. If LLMs and diffusers were the
         | _only_ thing companies used ML for, but efficiency gains from
         | new hardware remained constant, we 'd still be at the 2017
         | baseline for environmental impact of data centers.
         | 
         | Likewise, I doubt that USENET warning was ever true beyond the
         | first few years of the networks' lifetime. Certainly if
         | everything was connected via dial-up, yes, a single message
         | could incur hundreds of dollars of cost when you added the few
         | seconds of line time it took to send up across the whole world.
         | But that's accounting for a _lot_ of Ma Bell markup. Most
         | connections between sites and ISPs on USENET were done through
         | private lines that ran at far faster speeds than what you could
         | shove down copper phone wiring back then.
        
       | teekert wrote:
       | I wonder what the carbon footprint of all those ads is.
        
         | amelius wrote:
         | Not just the ads, but also the overconsumption which they
         | cause.
        
       | Ericson2314 wrote:
       | We really need to improve the power grid. I don't think about "A.
       | I." very much, but I am glad that _something_ is making us
       | upgrade the grid.
        
       | acidburnNSA wrote:
       | I'm glad that the needs of AI and the sustainable capabilities of
       | nuclear fission go well together.
        
       | simonw wrote:
       | I found this bit interesting:
       | 
       | > In 2017, AI began to change everything. Data centers started
       | getting built with energy-intensive hardware designed for AI,
       | which led them to double their electricity consumption by 2023.
       | 
       | As we all know, the generative AI boom only really kicked into
       | high gear in November 2022 with ChatGPT. That's five years of
       | "AI" growth between 2017 and 2022 which presumably was mostly
       | _not_ generative AI.
        
       | phillipcarter wrote:
       | Well, this was disappointing:
       | 
       | > There is a significant caveat to this math. These numbers
       | cannot serve as a proxy for how much energy is required to power
       | something like ChatGPT 4o.
       | 
       | Otherwise this is an excellent article critiquing the very real
       | problem that is opacity of these companies regarding model sizes
       | and deployments. Not having an honest accounting of computing
       | deployed worldwide _is_ a problem, and while it 's true that we
       | didn't really do this in the past (early versions of Google
       | searches were undoubtedly inefficient!), it's not an excuse
       | today.
       | 
       | I also wish this article talked about the compute trends. That
       | is, compute per token is going significantly down, but that also
       | means use of that compute can spread more. Where does that lead
       | us?
        
       | blkhawk wrote:
       | the numbers in the article are all over the place. I mean the
       | article seems to try and some of the more general calculations on
       | paper should work out but especially the image gen ones I can
       | sorta disprove with my own experiences in local gen.
       | 
       | Even were it matches sorta (the 400 feet e-bike thing) that only
       | works out for me because I use an AMD card. An NVIDIA card can
       | have several times the generation speed at the same power draw so
       | it all falls down again.
       | 
       | And the parameters they tried to standardize their figures with
       | (the 1024x1024 thing) is also a bit meh because the SAME amount
       | of pixels in a different aspect ratio can have huge variations in
       | gen speed and thus power usage. for instance for most illustrious
       | type checkpoints the speed is about 60% higher at aspect ratios
       | other than 1024x1024. Its all a bit of a mess.
        
       | bbor wrote:
       | Interesting, thanks for sharing! I share some concerns others
       | have about this piece, but I'm most shocked about their finding
       | that image generation is cheaper than text. As someone who's gone
       | down this rabbit hole multiple times, this runs against every
       | single paper I've ever cited on the topic. Anyone know why? Maybe
       | this is a recent change? It also doesn't help that multimodal
       | transformers are now blurring the lines between image and text,
       | of course... this article doesn't even handle that though,
       | treating all image models as diffusion models.
        
       | fred69 wrote:
       | Might have missed it but was disappointed to see no mention of
       | externalized costs like the scraping burden imposed on every IP-
       | connected server. From discussions on HN this sounds quite
       | substantial. And again, why exactly should the few AI companies
       | reap all the value when other companies and individuals are
       | incurring costs for it?
        
       | Henchman21 wrote:
       | I work in DCO, thats Data Center Operations if you're not aware.
       | I've tried explaining the amount of power used to my elderly mom;
       | it isn't easy! But here's my best take:
       | 
       | The racks I am personally responsible for consume 17.2kW. That's
       | consistent across the year; sure things dip a bit when
       | applications are shut down, but in general 17.2kW is the number.
       | Presuming a national average of 1.2kW per home, each rack of
       | equipment I oversee could potentially power 14 houses. I am
       | responsible for hundreds of these racks, while my larger
       | organization has many thousands of these racks in many locations
       | worldwide.
       | 
       | I've found no other way to let the scale of this sink in. When
       | put this way she is very clear: _the price isn't worth it to
       | humanity_. Being able to get, say, Door Dash, is pretty neat! But
       | not at the cost of all our hoarded treasure and certainly not at
       | the cost of _the environment on the only planet we have access
       | to_.
       | 
       | The work done by AI will only ever benefit the people at the top.
       | Because to be frank: they won't share. Because the very wealthy
       | have _hoarding disorder_.
        
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