[HN Gopher] High-school shop students attract skilled-trades job...
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High-school shop students attract skilled-trades job offers
Author : lxm
Score : 101 points
Date : 2025-05-11 15:31 UTC (7 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.wsj.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.wsj.com)
| techpineapple wrote:
| Can't really read the article so can't confirm this. There's a
| this idea that like a liberal focus on college has made the
| trades so unpopular no one is going into the trades, but doesn't
| at least half the country live in a place / have parents that
| value the trades?
|
| I sort of have two theories. One is that you probably have to be
| relatively smart to go into the trades. I remember listening to a
| podcast recently on military recruitment and they said because
| the military is so modern, they have to do most of their
| recruiting in middle class neighborhoods with good schools.
|
| Which means that maybe somewhat unintuitively, there are no
| separate paths -- college for good students, trade school and
| military for I dunno, "non-academic/street smarts or whatever you
| wan to call it. -- trade schools, the military and colleges are
| actually all competing for the same students.
|
| The second theory is tied to the first one, but for all the
| marketing on how great these jobs are, there are structural /
| practical problems with them. From how they pay, to lack of job
| security to the havoc they can wreak on your body.
| WillAdams wrote:
| That's pretty much it in a nutshell --- I've always described
| the "Maker Movement" as "Geeks who missed shop class".
|
| Cut my teeth on texts such as:
|
| https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/7326227-steel-square
|
| and have bought (and given away) more copies of:
|
| https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/30685840-practical-shop-...
|
| and
|
| https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/54328381-construction-ge...
|
| than I'd care to count.
|
| Current project has me working through: the _Make:
| Geometry/Trigonometry/Calculus_ books (and looking for a good
| book on conic sections which has optimized formulae to speed
| up/simplify what are currently a series of chained
| trigonometric functions...).
| mmooss wrote:
| > There's a this idea that like a liberal focus on college has
| made the trades so unpopular no one is going into the trades
|
| The conservative / GOP tactics are usually the same, and
| everyone else has, at conservative urging, disarmed themselves
| - they've abandoned postmodern understanding of communication,
| which the conservatives strategically embrace:
|
| They reframe issues: College is reframed - it was that
| knowledge was power, the key to life, citzenship, work, and
| sharpening your mind, your critical thinking, with the best
| thinkers and ideas in history was the most powerful tool. Now
| college is reframed as a training in employment skills for
| corporations. Life was about dreams and opportunity, fulfilling
| your potential and your dreams; now it's about making enough to
| survive. They refame America: It was the land of opportunity,
| where by working hard anyone had the opportunity to accomplish
| anything, not a class-based oppressive system like Europe and
| elsewhere; now you stay in your socioeconomic lane, take any
| job you can get, and (again) survive - what does a poor kid
| need college for?
|
| How you frame issues can determine the outcome of the
| discussion. 'Should we murder unborn babies?', 'Should we let
| undocumented criminals into the country?' - obviously, the
| answer is in how the question is framed (and often the framing
| is much more subtle than these easy examples). That doesn't
| mean there aren't merits to both sides but framing is a way to
| prevent discussion of the merits.
|
| They also demonize: Everything must include a criticism of
| 'liberals'. Almost as a display of _bona fides_ , you'll see
| that commentary must always include an attack on liberals, even
| if it's a critique of something the GOP/conservatives is doing.
| Similarly they blame 'liberals' for every problem, no matter
| how absurd. They blame liberals for immigration, health care,
| lack of green energy, etc. etc. If you read the transcripts of
| the leaked Signal chats, you'll see their agreed-upon talking
| points included, without discussion, 'blame Biden'. Biden isn't
| even in office and will never run again, but that's a must.
|
| And why wouldn't they do these things? They work and nobody
| puts up any resistance; nobody even tries to understand their
| tactics or why they work and dominate the public debate. The
| Democrats play helpless - not a winning strategy and IMHO the
| reason they lose; who votes for helpless? And many liberals now
| embrace victimhood -- helplessness + persecution = a lack of
| personal responsibility for anything -- another winning
| strategy.
| fallingknife wrote:
| Universities are the main gatekeepers of the class based
| oppressive system you complain about. The current
| bureaucratic governing structure of the US has been created
| by the liberals during the period from the New Deal through
| the early 90s when Democrats had almost unbroken control of
| congress. So, regardless of whether conservative complaints
| are valid, liberals are the correct people to complain about
| if you are unhappy with the current system because they are
| the ones who built it.
| jltsiren wrote:
| Employers, not universities. Employers were the ones who
| decided that most good jobs require a college degree. And
| then they sent administrators as their minions to take over
| the universities. Americans often call their universities
| colleges, which implies an organizational structure where
| the senior professionals doing the actual work are in
| charge. And that's how things used to work. But somehow
| that got turned around, with the administrators in charge
| and business interests treating universities as vocational
| schools.
|
| One way to look at this is through different motivations to
| studying: internal (you want to learn things), external
| (you want to be successful at whatever is being measured),
| and pragmatic (you want to pass the classes, get the
| degree, and move on). Universities prefer internally
| motivated students - those who study to learn rather than
| for jobs and career success. They can try to educate people
| with other motivations, but what those students want is
| inherently in conflict with what the professors want.
| mmooss wrote:
| I think you are defining 'liberal' as 'whatever was favored
| in that time period' or the now popular 'not contemporary
| far right populists'. The White House, however, was
| controlled by Republicans, for example, from 1968-1992 with
| one four year break.
|
| > Universities are the main gatekeepers of the class based
| oppressive system you complain about.
|
| How so? Before Republicans cut funding, universities were
| widely available, especially public ones. Many like NYC's
| city colleges were free. Once you got a degree, you were in
| a different socioeconomic class, but degrees were available
| to those who could get them. The number of people with
| degrees grew considerably, including through programs like
| the GI Bill. That's substantial opportunity and class
| mobility.
|
| Now whether you get into college depends, most of all, on
| the class you're born into. US social mobility has dropped
| significantly.
| mindslight wrote:
| > _One is that you probably have to be relatively smart to go
| into the trades_
|
| I've got to wonder if a deeper dynamic is that you now have to
| be relatively "smart" to go into the trades because perhaps the
| teaching/curricula is lacking, making it so that more base
| general intelligence / self starting on abstract concepts is
| required to actually learn in the first place. Trade classes
| should be an opportunity for people who missed the verbal-
| communication-of-abstract-topics meta-intelligence to develop
| their intelligence focused around a narrower topic that they
| taking a liking to. But if the teacher is really uninspired,
| and the curriculum shies away from actually creating larger
| cool things or playing with different techniques, (or becomes
| about following the manual for procedures for poorly-documented
| poorly-written throwaway proprietary software) I can see it
| coming off as yet another "when are we going to need this" high
| school class.
| techpineapple wrote:
| I'll bet it's a scale issue though. Everyone knows a person
| (I'm one of them) who does bad in say math class but later
| gets a job with applied math, because doing math in a
| classroom is boring.
|
| But if you try to design a curriculum for say "math you need
| to be an electrician for people who failed math class".
| You're mostly going to get people who just don't have the
| whatever they need to be good enough at math to be an
| electrician.
| mindslight wrote:
| "math you need to be an electrician for people who failed
| math class" seems like a reaction from within the model of
| the prevailing philosophy - more abstraction-first book
| learning. Whereas addressing a different learning style
| would be more like: here are the physical skills you need
| to be an electrician, here are more classes working your
| way up to build larger and larger things, and oh by the way
| now that you've developed the skills of building things
| while taking direction from someone telling you _how_ to
| build it, let 's try to teach you how to figure out how to
| build it yourself.
|
| And I'm just wondering if the safety-and-HR-uber-alles
| dynamic has stamped out a lot a of that physical-skills-
| first in favor of like, dry lessons trying to tell people
| all about wiring before they actually get to play with
| wires. Thus making it so the same people who succeed here
| are the traditionally "smart" ones that can take abstract
| knowledge and store it for later, before having something
| tangible to apply it to.
|
| (electrician might not be the best example for this because
| the differences between good/unsafe/unpowered wiring are
| still pretty abstract, but hopefully you can see the point
| regardless)
| SoftTalker wrote:
| To do well in the trades (i.e. doing something more than
| general laborer work) you need to be smart. You need to be
| able to program computer controlled mills and lathes, or
| troubleshoot computer-controlled electrical distribution
| systems, etc. Even to be a good mechanic, carpenter,
| ironworker, or plumber involves more and more technology and
| has always required good mathmatical and geometric ability.
| You also have to memorize all the detailed requirements of
| building code or other regulations at least as they apply to
| your trade. You can't advance very far if you're not
| reasonably smart.
| kmeisthax wrote:
| There's also a bit of this that's culture war fodder. A lot of
| middle-class conservatives send their kids to colleges, their
| kids reject their parents' conservatism, so the parents think
| the college has used some kind of magic liberalism ray[0] on
| their kids.
|
| The reality is, of course, that their kids weren't nearly as
| conservative as the parents thought. But that doesn't stop the
| salient myth of liberal indoctrination in colleges.
|
| Trade schools come into play mainly as a totem to hold up
| against liberal colleges. They are being played up as a sort of
| bastion of conservative thought, mainly because they don't have
| those pesky general ed requirements that might accidentally
| tell people how to fight against the elites running the system.
|
| There's a kernel of truth in all of this, in that there's
| _some_ trades that shouldn 't have been left out of the STEM
| paths that colleges like to push as an obvious moneymaker. The
| culture war is ultimately one of mottes and baileys, where you
| take some truth and ride it as one's political hobby-horse.
| Hell, just to explain why this happens I've already had to do
| the same thing.
|
| [0] In the same way that some people think tech companies can
| "hack our dopamine loops" or whatever
| techpineapple wrote:
| The thing that gets to me, and everyone is overly idealistic
| about a lot of things(learn to code!) but I really wish that
| that things were as simple as conservative culture warriors
| laid them out to be. It would be great if there was this "one
| neat trick!" To getting a 70k a year job right out of high
| school, optimized for people less academically inclined.
| repeekad wrote:
| For what it's worth, my intro to psychology gen ed professor
| told us to spell "humyn" with a y to "remove woman being
| dependent on man" and let us skip the final if we recorded
| ourselves protesting the controversial state house bill at
| the time.
|
| On net I agree with what you're saying, but know that the
| culture war isn't total bs one sided, and my unremarkable
| school had plenty of bad examples like this. Evergreen
| university in 2017 barring white people from attending class
| for a day was particularly embarrassing.
| whatshisface wrote:
| If the indoctrination ray worked, you wouldn't be
| complaining about it. :-)
| repeekad wrote:
| Not complaining about it, just throwing some noise out
| there and I completely agree, being exposed to different
| viewpoints and learning to adjust your perspective is
| what makes well rounded humyns ;)
| kmeisthax wrote:
| I went to Stony Brook, so my experience isn't comparable to
| yours, but I definitely did not encounter any professors
| doing shit like that[0]. And to be clear, there were a few
| politically-minded courses in our gen-ed requirements. We
| had a News Literacy course that was actually really good,
| that I wish I could force my Facebook-brained parents to
| sit through.
|
| If SBU had an indoctrination ray, they certainly had it on
| the wrong setting[1]. I'd already been firmly radicalized
| by Ron Paul revoLution warriors on Reddit into mainlining
| LvMI blog posts about Austrian economics and anarcho-
| capitalism by the end of my first year. It wasn't until I
| was _leaving_ school when my political positions shifted
| away from that.
|
| [0] To be clear, SBU notoriously had _a_ heterodox
| economics professor who was unabashedly a Marxist. I never
| met him, I only heard about the professor from one of the
| school newspapers.
|
| [1] Which, given everything else managed by the state of
| New York, would be totally on-brand for them.
| lurk2 wrote:
| > But that doesn't stop the salient myth of liberal
| indoctrination in colleges.
|
| It isn't a myth.
|
| > mainly because they don't have those pesky general ed
| requirements that might accidentally tell people how to fight
| against the elites running the system.
|
| There is value in a varied education, but a substantial
| number of Gen Ed requirements are used as a soap box by
| professors who would really rather be teaching something
| else. Social sciences and the arts tend to be the worst for
| it: Communications, English, Sociology, and Anthropology.
| Students want to get rid of these Gen Ed requirements
| primarily because the course content is treated as ancillary
| to Foucault, Adorno, and other dead-end thinkers.
|
| https://www.nas.org/academic-
| questions/31/2/homogenous_the_p...
| fallingknife wrote:
| > those pesky general ed requirements that might accidentally
| tell people how to fight against the elites running the
| system
|
| There is no group of people I have encountered in my life
| that I have as much contempt for as the professors and
| administrators at the $60K tuition (I went for free) private
| university that pretended like they were fighting against the
| elites that run the system when they are, if fact, those
| elites. The level of delusion in the non hard science parts
| of academia is absolutely mind blowing.
| lr4444lr wrote:
| Professors self-stated political leanings, which have changed
| markedly over time, are important evidence here.
| TMWNN wrote:
| > I sort of have two theories. One is that you probably have to
| be relatively smart to go into the trades. I remember listening
| to a podcast recently on military recruitment and they said
| because the military is so modern, they have to do most of
| their recruiting in middle class neighborhoods with good
| schools.
|
| This has been the case for a long time. For almost the entirety
| of the post-1973 end of US military conscription, a high school
| diploma has been required to enlist. From a 2008 study
| <http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2008/08/who-
| serves-...>: "Members of the all-volunteer [American] military
| are significantly more likely to come from high-income
| neighborhoods than from low-income neighborhoods." Also,
| "American soldiers are more educated than their peers. A little
| more than 1 percent of enlisted personnel lack a high school
| degree, compared to 21 percent of men 18-24 years old, and 95
| percent of officer accessions have at least a bachelor's degree
| ... Contrary to conventional wisdom, minorities are not
| overrepresented in military service."
| nradov wrote:
| It's true that bad schools make poor neighborhoods unproductive
| for military recruiters. They usually don't want recruits who
| dropped out of high school or have low ASVAB scores. But a lot
| of young people in those neighborhoods are also disqualified
| because of poor health (particularly including obesity, asthma,
| and various mental conditions), history of illegal drug use,
| and criminal records. These social issues are all highly
| correlated.
| intermerda wrote:
| The same politicians who push trades on America and bash
| colleges won't send their kids to trade schools but send them
| to Ivy League Universities instead. I wonder why that is.
| mikestew wrote:
| https://archive.ph/sWpS1
| anonymousiam wrote:
| Non-paywalled version here: https://archive.is/mhFn0
| teuobk wrote:
| For what it's worth, /r/welding seems to think this claim is
| complete bunk:
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/Welding/comments/1khd9aj/this_is_co...
| techpineapple wrote:
| I'm curious what the distinction is. I assume that the article
| isn't just a complete fabrication, but maybe they highlight the
| 20 best stories and everything else is meh.
|
| Kinda like saying you should go to code school because you can
| land a 175k/year entry level job at Google. Technically true.
| eWeSaYYY wrote:
| P-hacking is allowed and encouraged outside physical science
| where getting stats of medicine and building a bridge wrong
| have obvious side effect
|
| News media will whittle down their data set to get a result
| that only matters where cost of living is high, and there's a
| tiny number of the workers overall.
|
| Leads the innumerates in rural Somewhereville, Flyover, USA,
| to be all confused they don't make SF salaries in the middle
| of nowhere.
| alistairSH wrote:
| That's my take.
|
| Yea, welding offshore/underwater pays very well. Food-grade
| welding a bit less. Both have fairly miserable working
| conditions, are hard on your body, have some amount of
| danger, typically require lots of OT to make the claimed
| income, and unless you're union, with mediocre benefits.
|
| Great job for those who enjoy that type of work and/or want
| to hustle and save then move on. But any claim that it's easy
| money or typicsl is just wrong.
| carabiner wrote:
| If you read the threads in /r/construction that come up about
| this or adjacent topics ("trades are a guaranteed job, better
| than college") they usually say that the job is awful on your
| body without much pay.
|
| Personally, my friend is a carpenter and lives with his dad to
| save money. This is in Seattle so tons of construction and work
| to go around. He says he wishes he studied computer science in
| college (has an english degree).
| sandworm101 wrote:
| >> they usually say that the job is awful on your body
| without much pay.
|
| Worse yet, when your body does fail or is injured, that wage
| tends to stop. Most tradespersons are working for very small
| companies, often incorporated as their own one-person
| company. If you cannot work, it all just stops.
|
| One thing that makes the military different it that while the
| military can be very hard on your body (infantry) your wage
| does not stop if you are injured. A civilian carpenter with a
| broken leg must live on savings for a month. A military
| carpenter with a broken leg just won a month of desk duty
| without any drop in pay.
| bonestamp2 wrote:
| Absolutely. Some of my family owns a construction company
| and the career path for all employees in that company is
| basically to work your body while you're young and then
| move into management/estimating jobs before you do too much
| damage to your body.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| The military equivalent is to work a few years as a grunt
| until you qualify for some sort of free higher education.
| Then you come back as an officer and get to boss around
| all those sergeants who once yelled at you. Depending on
| your exact path, its all generally pensionable time
| worked for the same company.
| ethagnawl wrote:
| Despite how maligned they've become, there are still some
| US trade unions who take care of their members in these
| situations.
|
| But, yeah, on the whole this business about the virtue of
| trades and Boomer Facebook making baseless claims about how
| much money there is to be made is ... problematic. I've
| been there and these folks face all sorts of risks in the
| near (e.g. falls, electrocution) and long (e.g.
| Mesothelioma, (increased risk of) Parkinson's, etc.) terms.
| Working conditions have improved and seemingly everyone
| wears hiviz nowadays (possibly performatively / to virtue
| signal) but corners are absolutely still cut and I've heard
| many jokes and seen many eyes rolled on OSHA's account.
| jpc0 wrote:
| A counter argument to this.
|
| My old man is a tradesman, qualified as an electrician,
| worked and kept studying as he went and ended up as senior
| management.
|
| My little brother has severe dyslexia and ADHD, couldn't even
| finish school so went into trades, did some time as a diesel
| mechanic and qualified as a welder. Now builds race cars for
| a living ( Dakar ) and is a senior mechanic on track for
| management.
|
| Ambition and luck plays a role but although yes both of their
| bodies are a little more beat up than mine, they get actively
| headhunted and even when they don't have a full time job they
| can very easily fall back on the skills they have to fill
| gaps, people always need tradesmen.
|
| Neither of them are struggling in life, other than some bad
| decisions.
|
| Both of them are also on most countries critical skills list
| and emigration has always been an option if the local market
| drops off.
|
| For those reading this, trades are not nearly as bad as is
| being described here, there are plenty stories of SEs working
| for horrible companies.
| alephnerd wrote:
| They are extrapolating the $70k figure:
|
| "When Rios graduates next year, he plans to work as a
| fabricator at a local equipment maker for nuclear, recycling
| and other sectors, a job that pays $24 an hour, plus regular
| overtime and paid vacations."
|
| This sounds like a union job, and the $70k figure sounds like
| towards the upper end due to hierarchy, so realistically he'll
| be earning maybe half of that for a couple years first.
| more_corn wrote:
| We don't Reddit in my household so I can't respond directly,
| but there's nothing strange about going to a welding class,
| picking the best student and offering them a $24/hr job with a
| lot of potential overtime. If you can make a clean weld they
| don't care where you came from.
| esseph wrote:
| "We don't Reddit in my household"
|
| Woah.
|
| Can you explain this?
| nullc wrote:
| Pay differs a lot from place to place and sub-industry to
| subindistry. It's not uncommon to see people comment on redding
| claiming pay for something or another is _far_ lower than I
| know of people earning in that field. To go by reddit you might
| conclude programmers make $40k /yr, since thats what they make
| in Japan or whatnot.
|
| Not to say they they aren't correct here, but you shouldn't put
| too much stock in it.
|
| Welding itself is also a pretty broad scope-- are you taking on
| broken trailer hitches or are you talking about underwater
| welding of pressure vessels? Programming robots to do automated
| welding? etc.
| StefanBatory wrote:
| How common it is to have shop classes in schools in USA?
|
| For me in Poland, my high-school education was at liceum, i.e
| focus on academic subjects.
|
| There are vocational schools, but they're known to be awful
| quality and you don't go there if you want to earn trade, but if
| you're an awful student. And if you aren't awful student, then
| you'll most likely end up as one - as your peers will most likely
| be :(
|
| There are also "technikum" which is a mix of these two, but it's
| not for trade per se, and statistically chances you'll pass your
| end of school exams are smaller.
| jspaetzel wrote:
| I went to maybe slightly above average high school for my area
| and didn't have one. But there were programs where the school
| partnered with community colleges and students maintaining
| decent grades could attend classes elsewhere. And those had
| shop as well as other vocational programs.
|
| They probably sent us home with a pamphlet with information at
| the beginning of the year, but I don't remember.
| ZFleck wrote:
| The answer is probably, unhelpfully, "it depends". I attended a
| fairly large high school, and we probably had a dozen shop
| class offerings. A much smaller school just a few miles away
| had no infrastructure to support any shop classes.
|
| It's probably even more nuanced than that, though. My parents
| both attended very small schools in small towns, and both
| offered shop classes. All four schools mentioned were / are
| located in the Midwest, though, and none in large cities.
|
| If I had to guess, I'd say probably the majority of schools in
| the US _offer_ some form of shop class(es). But I don 't
| believe any would necessarily be part of the standard
| curriculum. Generally, these classes are elective.
| StefanBatory wrote:
| I'll say something unrelated to my question before, but damn
| if I don't envy you for electives.
|
| I had zero elective classes up through my entire pre-uni
| education. At my uni, I had one or two elective classes - at
| fifth and sixth semester, and that's all.
|
| It is an aspect of American education I do like a lot.
|
| (here we choose our profile, which assigns us to extended
| classes - i.e, Maths/English/Physics,
| Maths/Biology/Chemistry, Polish/Geography/History and so on,
| but then we don't get to choose anything after.)
| paulryanrogers wrote:
| Larger high schools have them, in the Midwest US at least.
| College prep is pushed pretty heavily though, other tracks are
| looked down upon.
|
| A tradesman I knew said find a career that doesn't destroy your
| body. Some tradesmen I've met say it's best to become an
| inspector or move into management.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| I went to law school with a guy who grew up in a state with
| "normal" highschools and "technical" schools for those not
| earmarked for higher education. Being a big football-type guy,
| he was directed to the latter. His mother fought to get him
| back into the "normal". Had she not done so, we would never
| have been classmates at law school. The technical school lacked
| the higher-level math and language courses that are important
| when applying to university.
| StefanBatory wrote:
| Exactly the same here - after technikum you can go to uni...
| But statistically, your results for high school exam are
| going to be way lower. Or you simply won't pass.
| bradly wrote:
| Our area in San Diego, CA has different public high schools
| have a different offering that maybe all high schools would
| have had in the past. They are not vocational schools, but
| schools that offer specialized programs for you to use during
| your electives (2 of your 6-7 classes you take you get to
| choose yourself).
|
| For example we have a high school with a culinary program,
| another with an auto program, another with a guitar building
| program, another with a music/theater arts program. These are
| all academic, public schools in the same district. You are
| assigned the school near* to your home, but you can petition
| for a different school.
|
| *there is gerrymandering here too
| alephnerd wrote:
| > For me in Poland, my high-school education was at liceum, i.e
| focus on academic subjects. There are vocational schools
|
| The US doesn't really differentiate between Lyceums/Gymnasiums,
| Vocational High Schools, and Technikum.
|
| All tracks tend to be offered at the same school, but with
| students given the option to opt into vocational tracks.
|
| Furthermore, a lot of skilled trades/"blue collar" (I hate that
| term) jobs have become increasingly specialized, so you anyhow
| have to attend a Community College or even a normal College to
| get the skills needed to land a job.
| pacbard wrote:
| Even if Career Technical Education (CTE) classes are offered,
| there is a large variation in their quality. For me, the
| question would be whether a graduate from a CTE program is more
| likely to be hired and receives higher wages (initially) than a
| non-CTE program completer. My 2-minute Google Scholar search
| hasn't found anything on the topic.
|
| At the end of the day, a 3-course sequence in a CTE pathway
| (which is the CA requirements for a high school CTE certificate
| in California) doesn't prepare you for a career in the same way
| as being in journalism class prepares you to be a journalist or
| being in theater prepares you to be an actor. Students will
| most likely need to pursue some form of post-secondary training
| (either through a community college or on-the-job) to become
| somewhat competent in their field.
| itronitron wrote:
| Very common, although many of the students don't take them
| (none of the girls as I recall). I took 'wood shop' in 8th
| grade, and there were shop classes (as well as 'auto shop') at
| my high school.
| lif wrote:
| hmm... the U.S. economy might stand to benefit from adapting a
| school system more akin to the German model?
|
| Specifically, offering a track similar to:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Real_school
| autobodie wrote:
| Doesn't matter because U.S. ruling class doesn't agree.
| tekla wrote:
| There is literally nothing stopping you from going to trade
| school and skipping college.
|
| College is still a gate for higher paid trades because
| advanced manufacturing wants educated workers that can do
| math and/or programming g-code and/or know advanced
| metallurgy
|
| I know someone who went to welding school, and he was
| basically practice welding 40 hours a week after class
| because he was working on some very advanced welds that
| actually required some decent chunk of engineering knowledge
| alephnerd wrote:
| I mean, most trades do expect some sort of a college
| education now as well (minimum AA), and vocational programs
| are increasingly require attending a community college.
|
| Edit: can't reply below, but all of those vocations listed
| are offered at community colleges now and linked with an
| AS/AAS degree, as apprenticeships are often coordinated
| with CCs.
| more_corn wrote:
| Not plumbing, electrical, welding, construction, auto
| mechanic, hvac tech.
| macintux wrote:
| Just for future reference: when a comment thread is
| sufficiently nested the "reply" link is missing, but you
| can click/tap on the timestamp link. That's a hardlink to
| the comment, whence you can reply.
| alephnerd wrote:
| It's already been offered. The issue is automation remains cost
| effective because salaries remain relatively high.
|
| $24 an hour for a fabricator out of high school is easily
| 20-30% higher the salary for a similar role in Germany.
|
| US manufacturing remains competitive industries where a $20-40
| an hour salary can be reasonably offered WITHOUT union
| guarantees. Otherwise the options were offshoring or
| automation. And for the kind of manufacturing roles that can
| afford to pay a relatively high salary, a college education is
| expected.
|
| Skilled Trades increasingly require a college education,
| because understanding classical mechanics with calculus, being
| able to script in domain-specific CAD tooling, or understanding
| how to synthesize a compound does require at least an AP level
| education.
| nineplay wrote:
| I have heard complaints that the German system is pretty class-
| based and forces kids to make big career decisions at a younger
| age then necessary. The result is that upper class kids stay
| upper class, working class kids stay working class.
| ghaff wrote:
| >German system is pretty class-based and forces kids to make
| big career decisions at a younger age then necessary
|
| At some level I think that's true in a lot of places. I'm not
| sure, in the US, if you really know what kind of engineering
| (or whatever) you want to go into. High school pretty much
| didn't give you a good sense of that in a lot of cases.
| Perhaps, on this board, there is a disproportionate number of
| people who always knew they wanted to program. But sure
| wasn't the case for me growing up. And would probably have
| done something different than mechanical engineering but--
| whatever--didn't really matter.
| Aurornis wrote:
| People have to choose a path at some point. We can't delay
| education for everyone until 25 or 30 to allow more time to
| figure it out.
|
| Many people I know changed paths mid-college career. Many
| also changed careers post college. The US is relatively
| forgiving in that regard (as are many countries).
|
| It's the systems that shunt people into specific paths in
| high school that are challenging.
| ghaff wrote:
| I don't disagree. In the US, a least, there's a lot of
| capability to make changes over time. Obviously, the more
| specialized and longer the training, the harder/costlier
| it gets. But so many people I went to school with never
| really just went to work in a stereotypical job related
| to their major (including myself). Which is just fine.
| cheschire wrote:
| There's ways to work your way up with dedication. Quite a lot
| of folks go for their abitur[0] and then on to university.
| Classism in Germany is perpetuated by cultural conservatism
| far more than whether you went to gymnasium or not.
|
| 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abitur
| alistairSH wrote:
| The "gifted" track in the US has the same effect. Get into
| the right track in mid-elementary school and you're pretty
| well set from a college admissions perspective. In Fairfax,
| that's a GT Center then Thomas Jefferson High, then your pick
| of top unis.
| c7b wrote:
| > forces kids to make big career decisions at a younger age
| then necessary
|
| That criticism might be directed at the separation at age 10,
| where some kids get to go to _Gymnasium_ (basically, the
| highest level) and then there are several other (lesser?)
| school types. That 's often criticized for the reasons you
| mentioned. Trade schools and dual education start around age
| 15 and they're generally considered a success story afaik.
| DudeOpotomus wrote:
| In America 2025, there is no better path to a high income and
| quality of life than learning a trade, then learning how to
| manage other tradespeople and then owning a company for such a
| trade.
|
| In the trades, if you are slightly smarter than average, have a
| good work ethic and an inkling of entrepreneurial drive, you will
| be very successful.
| lurk2 wrote:
| Do you work in the trades?
| DudeOpotomus wrote:
| Yes, when I was young. Pre internet days.
|
| In the last 25 years, I've built 3 houses and remodeled half
| a dozen others. Worked very closely with these guys across
| the entire spectrum. From the unskilled, trying to cheat
| their way, to the 75 year old 50yr Journeyman who will never
| retire because he loves it.
|
| The trades were decimated by immigration and the race for
| cheaper labor, higher margins. What were once solid middle
| class jobs, were undercut by unskilled labor masquerading as
| skilled. Over time, the market raised the rate of the
| unskilled and lowered the rate of the skilled. Prices rose to
| meet the market but quality declined. Unskilled were charging
| the same rates as skilled.
|
| Today there are very few Journeyman tradesmen left. They were
| forced out. Which is why the market is crying for these
| skills and awarding them with high wages.
|
| Looking forward, the entire nation is lined up to build.
| Those who mange this growth and bring the skills, will become
| wealthy.
| fires10 wrote:
| I have worked in the trades as an electrician and then became
| an estimator/Project Manager. Most are small businesses that
| are barely hanging on. It is often not a path to wealth. Many
| of the smaller businesses are being bought up by private
| equity now to drive up prices. The tradesmen are not getting
| wealthy and typically will not become wealthy. Licensing a
| business is different than the license a tradesman gets.
| Rules vary by state and are often require the approval of
| your would be competitors, regardless of demonstrated skill
| and time in the trade.
| solardev wrote:
| Programming used to be another skilled trade, before big tech
| and big money took over everything and corrupted it all.
|
| If there's good money in the trades, what's to stop them from
| similarly consolidating into national mega corps like every
| other field? Especially once we start encouraging former tech
| bros and VCs in, bringing with them their former mindsets?
| wnc3141 wrote:
| atleast for general contractors - Its a fundamentally
| different business model. Little growth, tiny margins, low
| fixed costs and tremendous requirement for trust and quality
| assurance.
| jagged-chisel wrote:
| I'm a software engineer. I'm over 50 and experienced a
| difficult time getting a new position after my last one
| evaporated.
|
| I am now working as a "programmer" for CNC systems. (That
| means I draw shapes in CAD, lay them out on steel plates, and
| post those to the machines doing the work.) We have torch,
| plasma, and laser cutters, metal forming (really just
| bending), and a programmable drill.
|
| The tasks involved in completing the processing after my work
| are: fetch the metal plate (warehouse crane, forklift), place
| the plate (must be aligned and at the correct origin),
| collect the cut parts onto pallets (organized by customer),
| operate forming machines, and/or feed beams into the drill.
|
| Those tasks don't exactly require skill. Because I'm a
| software guy, I'm always looking for opportunities for
| automation. We're about as close to fully automated as you
| can get without advanced robots (requiring dexterity,
| observation, etc.)
|
| I guess my point is that there's little room for former tech
| bro/VC "innovation" in my particular industry. I can see how
| it's similar in many trades. They don't necessarily require
| "skills" because anyone can learn quickly how to do them.
| Anyone but today's robots.
| toomuchtodo wrote:
| Unions. IBEW for electrical workers, for example.
| devwastaken wrote:
| trades are becoming the next walmart job in both pay and
| quality. you cant have a surplus and expect the system to be
| sustainable.
| wnc3141 wrote:
| You've noticed that the labor market is inherently a
| political problem. The only thing that sustains quality of
| pay and conditions is regulation and organization.
| nineplay wrote:
| I can't speak for all trades, but in my experience 'owning a
| company' and 'high quality of life' rarely go hand in hand.
| Owning a company is hard. It's a 24/7 job where you are
| managing customers, employees, accounting, etc., and you can
| hire people to help but ultimately it's on you if someone
| screws up and orders the wrong cabinets.
|
| I'm happier working for Big Corp in an air-conditioned office.
| spacemadness wrote:
| I would like someone to mythbust this belief as it seems like
| it runs off nothing but anecdotes. White collar folks seem to
| pull this one out as a grass is greener take on a different
| life path when their industry is starting to unwind.
| taurath wrote:
| A friend is dropping out of IT to pursue welding - but knows the
| money just isn't there. She's starting a 5:30am 10 hour shift at
| a manufacturer to be able to move onto welding and CNC. She's
| autistic so can struggle sometimes but is also one of the
| smartest people I know and does physics puzzles for fun and
| builds shit all the time.
|
| Skilled trade jobs value paying your dues. Its more about that
| than aptitude it seems to me.
|
| Sorry high schoolers, $70k a year is not happening - this kid is
| privileged as fuck.
| dmckeon wrote:
| > paying your dues. Its more about that than aptitude it seems
| to me.
|
| Yes, paying dues, both in the sense of putting in the time to
| learn the trade well, and very likely for a good paying career
| in the trade, paying union dues. People have been doing this
| since the rise of professional guilds in the middle ages.
|
| Today's kids can show aptitude, capability, and interest by
| doing well in shop class. An employer can take that interested
| teen or tween on at an entry level, add to their skill level,
| and make a profit on their labor. The worker can protect their
| labor value through a union, and probably should if only for
| the side benefits apart from negotiating contract labor rates.
|
| Should they just go to college instead? Sure, if they have that
| interest, and can get out without a student loan debt bigger
| than some mortgages.
| ghaff wrote:
| Unions are not magic. I have a friend who did belong to the
| local sheetmetal workers union and she was... not positive.
| Moved into a non-union shop and was a lot happier.
| Aurornis wrote:
| Similar experience here. Family member went into a union
| job and discovered that it was great for the old guys at
| the top who had been there for 3 decades, but it was rather
| repressive for the new people starting at the bottom. Much
| easier to pivot into a different job where union seniority
| wasn't the defining factor of your entire career.
| ambicapter wrote:
| Also, seniority, which you seem to skip over.
| yieldcrv wrote:
| "Paying dues" is a waste of everyone's time and the
| productivity of the market. It means one node of the market was
| underutilized, purely for ego.
|
| One thing I like about being closer to market oriented trades
| (or directly trading) is that your compensating is immediately
| based in the utility you provide. Like in financial services if
| you provide a service is based on the volume and your toll on
| that volume.
|
| But yes if you dint have opportunities, like the knowledge,
| capital and flexibility to leverage it, then there's entry
| level grunt work remaining.
| esseph wrote:
| It takes time and experience to learn a skill, call it
| whatever the hell you want.
| kevinventullo wrote:
| "Paying one's dues" has a very different connotation to me
| than "Learning a skill." The former suggests a tenure-based
| system of seniority and pay scales, rather than a
| meritocratic system based on skill level and actual output.
| ghaff wrote:
| To me it just says you'll make less for a period while
| learning the ropes. I suppose there are situations where
| you need to be spending the time to empty the trashcans
| but I don't take it that way.
| rsync wrote:
| "Sorry high schoolers, $70k a year is not happening - this kid
| is privileged as fuck."
|
| My oldest son is 17 years old and graduated one semester early
| from high school.
|
| He now works full-time as a welder and heavy equipment mechanic
| with a base rate of $25/hour and will get many, many hours of
| overtime this summer.
|
| He will _easily_ gross > 70k this year.
|
| Granted, this is in the Bay Area (so add some inflation there)
| and he has certain physical and interpersonal attributes[1]
| that make him special ... but this is, indeed, happening and my
| impression is that it would be repeatable for others like him.
|
| FWIW, he's very proud of himself and we're very proud of him
| but ... we're also trying to impress upon him that wages -
| however high - are not a path to wealth and security. _Owning
| things_ is[2].
|
| [1] He's a big strong guy, projects as aged 20+ and is very
| outgoing and charismatic.
|
| [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_in_the_Twenty-
| First_Ce...
| thejazzman wrote:
| I mean no disrespect but I'm pretty sure when someone throws
| out a salary figure they are assuming 40 hours per week
|
| You're describing someone hustling very hard. Which is great.
| But a little different?
| itronitron wrote:
| True, but let's consider the next age group up from 17, ...
| graduate students earn less than that, don't get paid
| overtime, and will have to search for a new job in a few
| years.
| mmcwilliams wrote:
| That may be true but we're talking about an anecdote. The
| U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics tracks that people with a
| high school education, on average, earn about half of
| what people with masters degrees earn [0]. It's easy to
| lose the big picture when focusing on an outlier.
|
| [0] https://www.bls.gov/emp/chart-unemployment-earnings-
| educatio...
| Ifkaluva wrote:
| What is a "professional degree", between master's and
| PhD?
| mmcwilliams wrote:
| That typically refers to a degree like a JD or MD.
| vlovich123 wrote:
| Is an undergraduate in engineering a professional degree
| or an undergrad degree?
| fooker wrote:
| This varies a lot.
|
| Some engineering programs make sure students are learning
| specialized practical skills, others make sure they get a
| solid grounding in basics so they have an easier time in
| picking whatever engineering discipline strikes their
| fancy.
|
| There are pros and cons for both.
| michaelt wrote:
| In the chart linked by mmcwilliams, an undergraduate
| degree in engineering would normally be a "Bachelor's
| Degree" - assuming the certificate awarded at the end
| says "bachelor of science" or something similar.
| fooker wrote:
| > graduate students
|
| Interesting comparison. You're right. The primary
| difference I can think of is the training to quickly
| become an expert in a different topic.
|
| I know plenty of PhD students accepting jobs in unrelated
| fields and quickly becoming the local expert in that
| topic.
|
| While possible, it's far more difficult for a machinist
| to suddenly become an expert car mechanic like this.
| cduzz wrote:
| Were you ever a kid?
|
| Kids (kid being someone from 16 to 30 without children of
| their own, ideally also without substance abuse problem
| and a home they can sleep in without fear of being
| assaulted) have nearly infinite energy, capacity to
| absorb (physical) abuse, and often the focus to learn
| esoteric subjects, _if_ they 're interested in the
| subject.
|
| So I would fully expect a large fraction of bored kids to
| potentially become expert car mechanics, or tree pruners,
| algebraic geometers, hadoop experts, air conditioning
| duct builders, etc, if given access, mentorship,
| opportunity, recognition, and compensation.
| knob wrote:
| Honestly, this is a great way of putting it.
| fooker wrote:
| I don't disagree. After all, that's exactly how I became
| an expert in whatever I do right now.
|
| You seem to have missed my point though, it was about
| switching tracks to become an expert in a new thing. A
| random physics PhD grad might not have a burning passion
| for fintech, for example but still becomes an expert
| after three months in the job because of the sheer amount
| of rigorous training.
| vlovich123 wrote:
| And let's consider the next age group up from that with
| some graduate students easily clearing 150-200k in total
| comp. Short term pain for long term prosperity - studies
| related to me was that on average university graduates
| end up making $1M more than non graduates in lifetime
| earnings (of course misleading data since university
| admission is already selecting for something that
| correlates with ambition AND the professional world
| tended to prefer university students with opportunities)
|
| Of course people pursuing higher education are often
| doing it for personal growth reasons as well.
| tejohnso wrote:
| > wages - however high - are not a path to wealth and
| security.
|
| High wages provide the discretionary income required to
| invest though. So I'd say, they're not the goal, but if the
| word path is to be used, I'd say they are part of the path.
| As far as owning things...investments specifically (not two
| motorcycles and a hummer), the usual advice is a well
| balanced portfolio. Could be equities, maybe some real
| estate, maybe even some crypto, all at different ratios
| depending on your risk profile.
|
| My concern is that we are in a unique time period where all
| of that is coming to an end and there will be no wealth
| appreciation even for disciplined investors.
| jopsen wrote:
| > My concern is that we are in a unique time period where
| all of that is coming to an end and there will be no wealth
| appreciation even for disciplined investors.
|
| Everyone always fears the future when their portfolio is
| down.
|
| The best hedge is to also "invest" in something that has
| value to you. Like bricks / house.
| ghaff wrote:
| Some conservative investments at the moment? Especially
| with some known outflows coming up? Sure. But that
| doesn't imply giving up on investing.
| Enginerrrd wrote:
| No, of course not but I think you should respond by
| increasing your savings rate beyond historically safe
| targets and diversifying even more aggressively.
| ghaff wrote:
| 100% agree. Part of it is age, and part of it is current
| situation and needs, but I've definitely dialed back on
| aggressive investments into safe harbors.
| Enginerrrd wrote:
| I'm not the person you're replying to. But actually I've
| been getting quite concerned about this for some time.
| Mostly due to the shrinking world demographics on the
| horizon. Overall growth is slowing and in most developed
| economies it will be shrinking. Also, increasing wealth
| inequality tends to lead to lower overall GDP so if that
| trend continues I expect lower aggregate growth as well.
|
| I think there is indeed a strong possibility that we may
| see very poor inflation-adjusted growth from an otherwise
| reasonable and diverse investment portfolio.
|
| Ultimately, the recipe for growth will just not be so
| simple in a world economy with a dwindling population.
| Thats a VERY unique situation so a lot of historical
| wisdom regarding investments I think may not bear fruit
| like it did in the past.
|
| My approach to mitigate this is two-fold, first I'm
| trying to be even MORE diversified. I have investments
| spread out over domestic and international ETF's, real
| estate, and I work a public sector job with a public
| pension. In addition, while aggregate growth may become
| lackluster, certain industries will still do well. Ive
| run businesses before and I'm looking to start another
| business in a very well-targeted industry to add an
| additional potential revenue stream well into the future.
| And the second prong of my approach is to increase my
| savings rate much higher than historically safe targets.
|
| I think there is good reason to be concerned about this
| and it has very little to do with the current market
| turmoil. (Although there are some indicators of trouble
| in that too)
| coolcase wrote:
| 70k doing OT in Bay Area. So what is that in real money, 35k?
| sndean wrote:
| Yeah, ignoring the OT, 70k in the Bay Area is ~40k in
| Omaha, Ann Arbor, Orlando, etc [1]. Without the OT it's
| more like 30k. And if your brain, like mine, hasn't
| adjusted to inflation yet, that's ~23k in 2019 dollars [2].
|
| [1] Bankrate
|
| [2] BLS
| brudgers wrote:
| If you don't pay rent, it's pretty much $70k without rent
| anywhere else in the US but with better economic
| opportunities and better amenities.
|
| Omaha is cheaper but you can't go mountain hiking or
| surfing or skiing on your day off.
| spacemadness wrote:
| I'm pretty sure OP wasn't talking about the Bay Area which
| isn't a sane place economically speaking where 70K isn't all
| that great of a salary, especially with a ton of overtime.
| navane wrote:
| 70k / 25$/hr / 40hr/week = 70 weeks of fulltime labor
| twarge wrote:
| You missed overtime pay
| gonzo wrote:
| They missed mathematics
|
| 2,000 hours / year (straight time, 10 paid days PTO),
| $35/hour is $70k base.
| ForOldHack wrote:
| You are exactly right. This is how I have calculated it
| since I took MicroEconomics as a Freshman.
|
| P.S. Union Journeyman Welder, Bay Area median salary is
| $26 ~ $36.82 = $52,000 to $72,400.
|
| "The median household income in the Bay Area was $128,151
| in 2022, according to the U.S. Census Bureau. This
| represents a slight decrease from $132,586 in 2019. "
| So.. 56% of median household income? If him, and his gf
| worked, then they would collectively make 112% of median
| household income.
| vlovich123 wrote:
| By comparison I was making $75k in the Bay Area as an entry
| level software engineer with no overtime and only because I
| was afraid of negotiating higher (I think 85-90 was on the
| table).
|
| This isn't to take anything away from your son's achievements
| and congrats to him and you all should of course be proud of
| his accomplishments. I think though it's useful to compare
| and contrast blue collar and white collar wages in terms of
| effort per dollar earned as well when discussing options to
| kids. There's nothing wrong with working harder for that
| amount, especially when you love the work because then you
| get even more pride out of it, but some kids may want to work
| harder in the "short" term via a professional education for
| the long term easier path or have better job stability even
| in the face of physical ailments.
| teaearlgraycold wrote:
| When was this? Even 6 years ago startups in the bay paid
| $130-140k to juniors.
| michaelt wrote:
| But do they pay that to 17 year olds without a college
| degree?
| brudgers wrote:
| Some people like physical work and don't place high value
| on office jobs [1][2]
|
| [1] I did not say some people don't enjoy physical work but
| do physical work anyway.
|
| [2] I did not say there is anything wrong with a preference
| for office jobs.
| fumeux_fume wrote:
| Haha, can't actually tell if this is satire. If it is, then
| bravo, sir! If it's not, then it's sad this poor father
| doesn't know his son has dropped out of high school to become
| welder who needs a ton of OT to scrape by in the Bay Area.
| milkshakes wrote:
| we'll see who's laughing in five years
| cycomanic wrote:
| The difference between compensation in different countries is
| fascinating. In OZ/NZ tradespeople are the highest earners. For
| Australia I suspect this is explained at least partially by
| mining (I know people who earned $600+ per hour 10-15 years
| ago, and that included free flights in and out, free
| accommodation etc), and NZ needed to follow because of the ease
| of moving to Oz. Mining doesn't really explain why plumbers and
| carpenters earn like crazy as well though.
|
| The quality of work though is extremely poor if I compare what
| one would expect in e.g. Germany. I guess that's the advantage
| of the German apprenticeship system where tradespeople get
| proper training and not take a couple month course at a tafe
| and then start their own business.
| Aurornis wrote:
| > (I know people who earned $600+ per hour 10-15 years ago,
| and that included free flights in and out, free accommodation
| etc)
|
| I remember countless stories like this circulating when I was
| in high school. Someone who wasn't going to college was
| instead going off to do some obscure thing like work on oil
| rigs or do welding in hazardous locations.
|
| The hook was always that they heard a friend of a friend brag
| about some extreme hourly rate they made one time a few years
| ago and assumed that's just what the job always paid.
|
| Then they went out and did it, learned that the job was
| terrible, and discovered that the average pay was a lot less
| than the all-time highest number that people would quote.
| victorbjorklund wrote:
| To be fair that bait and switch happens in software too.
| Not all devs make 500 000 usd.
| bigfatkitten wrote:
| > I guess that's the advantage of the German apprenticeship
| system where tradespeople get proper training and not take a
| couple month course at a tafe and then start their own
| business.
|
| Plumbers and electricians in Australia both do four year
| apprenticeships, with some time at TAFE and the rest training
| on the job.
|
| The quality problems you see are generally less about
| training, and more the result of financially-motivated corner
| cutting.
| heraldgeezer wrote:
| >A friend is dropping out of IT to pursue welding
|
| Why? Sounds like IT is a better fit for her?
| gonzo wrote:
| Do you weld?
|
| Good welding requires intense focus/nondistractions, which
| some people on the spectrum really enjoy.
| gonzo wrote:
| I own Netgate (hat tip to the haters who will comment), the
| company that does pfsense and tsnr.
|
| I also own Bump It Offroad in Windsor, CO. We do some CNC
| (plasma table) as well. I pay welders about $70k/year plus
| benefits, to start. They're both college drop-outs, but smart
| and willing to learn.
|
| Though I grew up in the trades, it's not about "dues" for me,
| but more work ethic and willingness to learn.
| nateburke wrote:
| The opportunity for trades-based small business creation in
| America would feel a lot more tangible... absent the carried
| interest tax loophole.
|
| Part of the small business trades success narrative is built upon
| trust, trust that in youth, doing good work will create a
| reputation within your community that will be remembered, and
| form the foundation for a brand (your name) that can attract the
| next generation of youth to be developed, trained, etc.
|
| If successful small businesses only exist to get acquired, so
| that both workers and customers suffer, that foundation of trust
| will struggle to persist.
| tmpz22 wrote:
| Is it not also reliant on an affluent customer base that can
| pay high prices for services? In poorer communities are trade
| jobs lucrative? Obviously in places like the Bay Area they are
| VERY lucrative, but is that a sustainable narrative to re-tool
| the economy around?
| nine_k wrote:
| Certain skills are always in a stable demand, and a
| relatively short supply. Plumbing, electricity, roofs. Some
| of this requires a license, all of this requires training and
| experience which only time and practice can give.
| Opportunities for that are also somehow limited.
|
| So, if you live in a poorer community and serve a poorer
| community, you likely make more than most in the poorer
| community, and likely gain respect if you do a good job.
| yieldcrv wrote:
| are you suggesting that eliminating carried interest would
| deter private equity from bothering with small businesses, and
| make the remaining small businesses feel like a more reliable
| thing for workers and employers to engage in? because they
| won't get shuttered unceremoniously?
|
| if I'm understanding that correctly, I have to giggle, because
| there are plenty of ways for institutional money to have lower
| taxes than ordinary income tax rates. waaaay lower than the
| carried interest "loophole".
|
| also, to me, loopholes are unintended things that no one person
| in government or branch of government noticed. like a couple of
| private letter rulings from the IRS combined with an accounting
| tweak in a budget appropriations bill. carried interest isn't
| one of those to me when it was directly passed by congress
| explicitly and deliberately affirmed multiple times in
| subsequent legislation.
|
| but I could be misunderstanding your post entirely.
| Aurornis wrote:
| > If successful small businesses only exist to get acquired
|
| The average small business does not exist to get acquired. Only
| a very small number of small businesses are even interesting to
| private equity.
| tonyhart7 wrote:
| good for them
| gigatexal wrote:
| I love this. This is what we need more of. My only concern is who
| will challenge their thinking? Who will teach them critical
| thinking skills? Who will give them a broader more holistic
| understanding of the world if not at a university?
|
| I fear we will get ( because we need them ) many thousands more
| skilled workers in the trades to build more again but they'll
| also be too easily bamboozled by charlatans like Trump and vote
| in policies that will screw us all
| fallingknife wrote:
| Those who want education on subjects they are not employed in
| or "a broader more holistic understanding of the world"
| (whatever that means) will get it themselves. Those who don't
| want it won't get it even if you send them to college. College
| is just 4 more years of school after you've already done 13 in
| K-12. It has no special properties.
| intermerda wrote:
| High School is just 4 more years of school after you've
| already done 8 in K-8. It has no special properties.
|
| Those who want education on subjects taught in high school
| (whatever their value is) will get it themselves. Those who
| don't want it won't get it even if you send them to high
| school.
|
| Between American states rolling back child labor laws, and
| the current federal administration's promising vision of
| factory and coal jobs for children and their future
| generations, there will be enough jobs that don't require
| useless high school diplomas.
|
| Eliminating income tax and increasing tariffs to gorillion
| percent is just part of the equation. Rolling back of high
| school education is critical to truly achieve the dream of
| the "good old days."
| fallingknife wrote:
| > High School is just 4 more years of school after you've
| already done 8 in K-8. It has no special properties.
|
| This is probably also true. High school standards have been
| lowered so much that everybody with a pulse can graduate so
| the degree is meaningless in terms of educational
| achievement. Basically just a filter now that says "I am at
| least one tiny step above a total retard or a complete 100%
| screw up."
|
| I worked jobs part time as young as 14. Child labor laws
| are mainly about keeping kids in school rather than
| protecting them from anything bad because with our society
| defined around credentials, failing to obtain them is bad
| for that child's future. But that's just a rule we made up.
| There's absolutely no reason that a 14 year old who has
| finished 8th grade and knows how to read and do basic math
| couldn't go off and apprentice to a trade and be
| successful. In 1910 only 10% of Americans had finished high
| school and we still had a perfectly well functioning
| society. And at that time only 2 % had college degrees and
| still we were in an era of rapid scientific progress and
| economic growth.
| sepositus wrote:
| > Who will give them a broader more holistic understanding of
| the world if not at a university?
|
| I'm going to guess the kids that are inherently interested in
| this will research it themselves. The ones who are not, won't.
| I'm one of the former.
| TheBlight wrote:
| I don't think there's unanimous consensus that universities
| teach "critical thinking skills."
| lordnacho wrote:
| Isn't this backwards? People who want the broader education
| will naturally gravitate towards college. It's not that college
| actually teaches these things, it's just a magnet for people
| who care about them.
|
| Most people will still be going through education with specific
| career goals in mind, however lamentable that is. And then they
| will claim they also learned critical thinking.
| DragonStrength wrote:
| You need 200k/yr to be comfortable in Alabama. These headlines
| are for older generations who think that is too much money for a
| young person. Meanwhile, they'd never be able to afford the homes
| they now live in.
| hbarka wrote:
| There was a time when high-school shop and home ec was normal.
| kcb wrote:
| There's not much I dislike more than well off white collar
| workers telling kids to skip school and go into the trades. Don't
| buy it. If at all possible get a degree, sit at a desk, and earn
| a living wage. This is your first priority.
| Rantenki wrote:
| That 68k/yr wage only sounds good if you're still thinking in
| circa year 2000 dollars. Nobody is making the mortgage on a house
| on 68k/year, and they're not starting a happy family if they have
| to do 20+hrs/week overtime in order to turn 25/hr into 68k/year.
| I remember earning nearly exactly that wage back in the early
| 2000s, and barely making ends meet in a cheap rental, so it's
| certainly not a great wage today.
| GenerWork wrote:
| The national average salary is $63,795 [0], so they're making
| about $4k more. Just because they're not earning 6 figures
| working in their first tech job doesn't mean that it's bad.
|
| >I remember earning nearly exactly that wage back in the early
| 2000s, and barely making ends meet in a cheap rental
|
| I made $10/hr my first job after college while living in a
| studio by myself in 2011 (and that was with student loan
| payments!), and I was barely able to get by, so how were you
| barely able to get by then on almost $70k a year?
|
| [0] https://www.sofi.com/learn/content/average-salary-in-us/
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