[HN Gopher] Not a three-year-old chimney sweep (2022)
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Not a three-year-old chimney sweep (2022)
Author : nixass
Score : 95 points
Date : 2025-05-10 06:58 UTC (16 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (fakehistoryhunter.net)
(TXT) w3m dump (fakehistoryhunter.net)
| AndrewSwift wrote:
| Great article, thanks for sharing.
| bruce511 wrote:
| It really doesn't take much to get people outraged. The last 20
| years or so of social media, and cultural politics has taught us
| that.
|
| And enraged people are easily manipulated. Americans were enraged
| after 9/11, and that engagement was quickly weaponized into the
| Patriot Act and the "War on Terror".
|
| The flip side of all this enragement is a callous apathy. Things
| that really should concern me (like the eradication of due
| process) are hidden behind nonsense (like 1930 chimney sweeps) or
| the exhaustion of being enraged all the time.
| xucian wrote:
| this is an incredibly overlooked angle, I think I never
| actually thought of this. thanks a lot, this makes a lot of
| sense
| normie3000 wrote:
| Conceptually similar to disaster capitalism, perhaps? "Never
| let a good crisis go to waste."
| yen223 wrote:
| Were many people outraged by this photo?
|
| This is the first I've heard of the photo or the outrage, so I
| genuinely don't know
| bruce511 wrote:
| Get enough people and you'll find someone outraged about
| everything.
|
| If you want to modernize the analogy you might compare it to
| "school children identifying as cats and needing litterboxes"
| or any number of modern contemporary outrage over completely
| made up things.
| tap-snap-or-nap wrote:
| How are we supposed to find balance between the two? As soon as
| I thought of this question, I realized that I would need to
| practice it just like real life balancing.
| giorgosts wrote:
| So it is a re-enactment but nevertheless, it is depicting real
| world practices prevalent at the time.
| dlkmp wrote:
| Did you read the article? It was a real world practice, but
| long gone already at that time (in the mentioned parts of
| Europe at least).
| irjustin wrote:
| I'll play's devil's advocate - is there really a difference?
|
| People were angry (rightfully so) at children chimney sweeps
| and they definitely existed, were abused and did die/have
| horrible problems/etc.
|
| So the outrage is justified. Now, the specific picture isn't
| true/authentic, but the contents of the picture definitely
| existed did.
|
| So is it wrong?
| croes wrote:
| But they are targeting the wrong time period with their
| anger.
|
| It's like with the witch hunts which are associated with
| the middle ages but happened later.
| Veen wrote:
| What's the point of getting angry about something that
| happened so long ago that the angry people's grandparents
| weren't born yet?
| giorgosts wrote:
| Why would the filmmakers make the re-enactment though? For
| social media? For clicks over the interwebs?
|
| For context, by the late '20 programs were running for the
| elimination of Gypsies and disabled children inside
| concentration camps. Pieces of burned clothing were found on
| rooftops. Even Britain had a eugenics program against
| inferior races.
|
| Not likely therefore made to cause outrage over children's
| rights, rather to depict established practices.
| biorach wrote:
| > Why would the filmmakers make the re-enactment though?
|
| because, as you'll see in the article, people thought it
| was cute and funny to dress up very small children as
| chimney sweeps
|
| > by the late '20 programs were running for the elimination
| of Gypsies and disabled children inside concentration camps
|
| You've got your timeline mixed up
| prmoustache wrote:
| To these days, there are kids dressed at chimney sweep in a
| lot of weddings in many german speaking countries. I know
| one of my daughter did dress that way in a friend's wedding
| when I was living in Switzerland.
|
| People think about the tradition of them bringing good omen
| and how cute they look, not gruesome children labor.
| Cordiali wrote:
| From the article:
|
| >Another important thing to mention is that the chimney
| sweep was a good luck symbol at that time, especially in
| Germany. People dressed up as them and send each other
| postcards showing children as chimney sweeps.
| snickerer wrote:
| People and societies work a lot with re-enactment. I think of,
| for example, pirates. There was nothing fun about them,
| watching the Jolly Roger approaching you must be horrible,
| followed by a gruesome death. But we, adults and children both,
| are enjoying to play pirates. Maybe the re-enactment of
| something brutal can be a healthy way to get over it for
| humans.
| croes wrote:
| I doubt that they used 3 years old.
|
| Not strong enough to do anything useful.
| verisimi wrote:
| It's amazing how many military drills preceed actual
| engagement.
| pavel_lishin wrote:
| > _But the pavement looked familiar to me, I'm specialised in
| Europe during the 1920s-40s and have worked on a project about
| daily life in Berlin in the 1920s and I've seen that pavement in
| other old footage and in countless photos._
|
| I visited Jerusalem yesterday, and was struck by the fact that
| there are places in the world where people have been continuously
| walking for millennia, putting their feet on the same stones. I
| had a mental image of a historian who specializes in a single
| paving stone, putting a lifetime of effort into studying just
| this one large brick.
|
| This part of the article felt like such a weird echo of that
| thought!
| dcminter wrote:
| The Guildhall in London is one of the old political centres of
| the city. If you go down into the basement there's the remains
| of a Roman ampitheatre!
|
| Tucked away in an alcove on Cannon Street is an old block of
| stone. This is the famous London Stone. So old that nobody
| knows _what_ it is originally famous for...
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guildhall,_London
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/London_Stone
|
| That sort of oddity and connection with history is one of the
| fun parts when living in an "old" city (London isn't even that
| old by global standards).
|
| That ampitheatre shows that street level in ancient times and
| now might be quite different, so the historical feet might not
| really have been walking in the same place. London Stone does
| suggest that you could reasonably invest a lot of effort into
| the history of a single slab though!
| normie3000 wrote:
| > That ampitheatre shows that street level in ancient times
|
| Why do street levels change like this? There seem to be a lot
| of "buried streets" in old cities.
| dcminter wrote:
| 2000(ish) years of dust and leaf litter adds up!
| lexicality wrote:
| old cities are typically built on the flood planes of large
| rivers since you get easy access to clean(ish) water and
| flat ground. Large rivers tend to engage in sedimentation
| so everything around them either needs to slowly and
| constantly build upwards to avoid being underwater or will
| be razed and the ground raised by the next flood with its
| associated payload of mud.
| ZiiS wrote:
| Lack of JCBs.
| wcoenen wrote:
| Humans tend to accumulate building material in cities
| faster than it is lost to erosion. It can add up to many
| meters over the millennia.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tell_(archaeology)
| stevoski wrote:
| Barcelona has a distinctive paving style; it has become a
| symbol of the city.
|
| If you live here and see it everyday, you spot it instantly
| when watching TV show or movie that was made here.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panot
| noosphr wrote:
| There should be a name for the phenomenon where people upset
| about some injustice pick the least plausible example to use as
| the cause celebre of the injustice.
|
| For a more modern take I can't understand why Daniel Shaver is
| not the face of police murder in the US. The video is on YouTube,
| you can find the unedited version with a Google search. There is
| no benefit of the doubt to give. It was straight up murder done
| on live cam. The more you read the worse it gets.
|
| But it got buried in a week and no one remembers it.
| jMyles wrote:
| > no one remembers it.
|
| That doesn't resonate with my experience. People know about the
| murder, but aren't sure what to do.
|
| The murderer, who clearly had mental health issues (eg, having
| "you're fucked" on the dust cover of his personal AR-15, which
| he used to commit the act), was acquitted (in a trial of
| strange circumstances). It's baffling that none of his
| colleagues - who saw the message on his weapon - ever pulled
| him aside to ask if he was OK.
|
| And anyway, what does this have to do with your point of
| holding up an unlikely / outlying example to demonstrate a
| phenomenon?
| sethammons wrote:
| I am not remotely aware of this case. How does those words,
| or any words, on a gun case/cover relate to mental health
| issues? This isn't a manifesto; it is more like "guard dog?
| Beware of owner!" decal, or a Calvin pissing on a coexist
| sticker. Or truck nuts. These might be distasteful to some
| but is unrelated to mental health. I'd be more worried about
| my former neighbor who had an unhealthy love of maglite
| flashlights and owned like 50 of 'em. _That_ was strange.
| winrid wrote:
| People like flashlights. It's a thing. Just like we like
| computers.
| sethammons wrote:
| No shade meant towards odd collections nor truck nuts.
| silotis wrote:
| The "you're fucked" was written on the inside of the
| ejection port dust cover so that it would become visible
| after the weapon was fired. The implication is that he was
| eager to shoot someone.
| dullcrisp wrote:
| I'd say the medium is the message in this case.
| failrate wrote:
| As someone who avoids making threats in public, those
| stickers and whatnot do leave me concerned about the
| person's mental health.
| marssaxman wrote:
| His colleagues likely didn't find the dust cover noteworthy.
| Within contemporary American gun culture, it would seem like
| a minor bit of braggadocio akin to a "Protected by Smith &
| Wesson" sticker or a "Warning: We Don't Dial 911" placard;
| tacky and unprofessional, but not something to take
| seriously. There's a whole little industry around AR-15
| customization, offering thousands of options for engraved
| dust covers with all kinds of symbols and messages:
|
| https://midstatefirearms.com/product/engraved-dust-cover-
| eje...
|
| https://mcsgearup.com/ar-15-ejection-port-dust-cover-
| engravi...
|
| https://www.wingtactical.com/firearm-parts/ar-15/upper-
| recei...
|
| https://cordedarms.com/ExoticCovers1
| genewitch wrote:
| Elijah McCain wasn't allegedly shooting an air rifle at a
| motel, so I'd reckon they should be the face.
|
| Right?
| clipsy wrote:
| It's unfortunate that the shooter was not convicted, but the
| mere fact that there was an investigation and a trial
| differentiates it from a lot of police violence causes
| celebres.
| ralfd wrote:
| what, why?
| eru wrote:
| > There should be a name for the phenomenon where people upset
| about some injustice pick the least plausible example to use as
| the cause celebre of the injustice.
|
| Perhaps 'The Toxoplasma of Rage'? See
| https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/12/17/the-toxoplasma-of-rage...
|
| Or you might like
| https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/04/12/clarification-to-sacre...
| rssoconnor wrote:
| Thanks for reminding me of CGP Grey's "This Video Will Make
| You Angry": https://youtu.be/rE3j_RHkqJc
|
| Now I feel I should rewatch this video annually as a reminder
| to myself, or maybe monthly.
| kubb wrote:
| So it was a common practice a century before the photo was taken.
|
| How is it surprising that people get upset? The photo is a record
| of a depiction of a practice that existed.
|
| It's the practice that people don't like, not the depiction.
| fyrn_ wrote:
| Part of why people are upsetis because they think this is a
| much more recent example of the thing they dislike than
| expected. It's disingenuous to pretend it's only the practice
| not the context which influences people.
| kubb wrote:
| Sure, context matters. You could claim "there were no 3 year
| olds ACTUALLY working as chimney sweeps anywhere in the world
| in 1930", if you wanted to make this point. But, I suspect
| it's not so clear if that's even true, just as the author can
| only suspect this is a reenactment in this photo.
| Jolter wrote:
| I think you'll find they the article makes some very good
| arguments for why this is indeed a reenactment.
|
| I think the best argument is that three year olds would
| make extremely ineffective chimney sweeps. I don't know if
| you've met any recently? They would require more effort in
| supervision than they save by way of their labor. Much
| more.
| gambiting wrote:
| Well but it's posted as a real thing, not a re-enactment. It's
| dishonest at its core. Especially since it says it's as recent
| as 1930 which is just straight up not true.
|
| It's like if we reenacted it in 2025 and said "look at this
| toddler chimney sweep in 2025!".
|
| Obviously part of the outrage would be at the practice, part of
| it would be at the fact that it's in 2025.
| kubb wrote:
| Actually, I take back what I said. The article doesn't even
| conclusively demonstrate that this is a reenactment.
| Thorrez wrote:
| Well a law was passed 30 years earlier making it illegal.
| Thorrez wrote:
| It wasn't common practice for 3-year-olds to do it. The article
| says usually 6 was the youngest.
| nickdothutton wrote:
| The picture is a staged and is a caricature not a depiction or
| reenactment of anything real. Yes, there was child labour in many
| industries and it was dangerous to them in both the long and the
| short term. No, 3 year olds were not used to sweep chimneys (but
| slightly older children were, 5, 6, 7). Yes, this was outlawed
| long before the picture was taken. In the UK an act was passed in
| 1788 restricting the minimum age to 8, although like many such
| laws it was not well enforced.
| eru wrote:
| Yes.
|
| And educating your children is what economists call a 'normal
| good'. Ie, richer people consumer more of it.
| dzdt wrote:
| I more examples from when that kiddie chimney sweep photo/film
| session went viral in the late 1920's. Interestingly the fakeness
| of it was never acknowledged.
|
| Here is Horst Bohnke in Spanish literary/art magazine Blanco y
| Negro in 1928. It includes one more photo not already in the
| original Fake History Hunter article. [1]
|
| And here he is in American newspaper photo collages, in a
| syndicated 1927 Central Press spread "The Day's News in Pictures"
| : "Starting Early - Horst Bohnke, two and one-half years old, of
| Berlin, Germany, has just entered the chimney sweeping
| profession, proving that chimney sweeps are born and not made. He
| is working as an apprentice to his father" [2].
|
| And in Knickerbocker Press Artgravure Picture Section, March 6,
| 1927 : "Infant member of an ancient trade. Horst Bohnke, two and
| a half years old, is apprentice to his father, a Berlin, Germany,
| chimneysweep" [3]
|
| [1]
| https://www.google.com/books/edition/Blanco_y_negro/NujrMJPr...
|
| [2] https://fultonhistory.com/highlighter/highlight-for-
| xml?altU...
|
| [3] https://fultonhistory.com/highlighter/highlight-for-
| xml?altU...
| eru wrote:
| > Interestingly the fakeness of it was never acknowledged.
|
| Perhaps it was implicitly understood?
| pfdietz wrote:
| The boy would be the right age to be a soldier in WW2. So there's
| a good chance he died then.
| lttlrck wrote:
| Ironically for me, the final photo of the boy on the roof
| (presented as evidence of staging) looks _less_ obviously staged
| than the newsreel. It felt at odds with the preceding text.
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