[HN Gopher] Vagus Nerve Stimulation Erases PTSD: Study
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Vagus Nerve Stimulation Erases PTSD: Study
Author : rmason
Score : 57 points
Date : 2025-05-07 19:38 UTC (3 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (neurosciencenews.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (neurosciencenews.com)
| PaulHoule wrote:
| Not surprising, it's been conjectured for a long time that
| suppressing the physiological response would improve the
| effectiveness of PTSD therapy
|
| https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK562942/
| binarymax wrote:
| My friend's startup is doing great stuff in this space to make a
| VNS device for consumers. https://zenbud.health/
| dark-star wrote:
| Do these work the same as the professional/medical ones? A
| friend of mine had one during a study, and she claimed it
| worked by electrostimulation (small electric shocks), not
| ultrasonic waves?
|
| She wanted to buy one of those devices because they really
| helped her but the cost was upwards of 1500EUR, this would
| probably be within range for her, assuming it works the same
| way?
| metalman wrote:
| text says "implanted device", which is going to put in by a
| neuro surgeon
| dark-star wrote:
| I wasn't talking about the article, I was replying to a
| comment about the zenbuds
| m101010 wrote:
| They promote their peer-reviewed clinical trial in the header
| area. However, the spelling mistake 'Tial' should be fixed asap
| :)
|
| Maybe you can tell him that and also tell him that I am quite
| interested in the device to check if it can reduce my heart
| palpitations!
| j45 wrote:
| Neat, sensate is another device in this area.
|
| Bio and neurofeedback devices are going to be an interesting
| space the next 10 years.
| ajb wrote:
| I'm skeptical of these devices that say they are safe based on
| CE or FCC testing. (zenbud says it has been CE tested). That's
| consumer product testing, not health-device testing; I would
| like to see some evidence that long-term use of a nerve
| stimulation device causes no long term damage. I don't believe
| that CE or FCC tests show that. It's disingenuous to have a
| press release saying "Yay! We passed CE testing!" as if that
| was like FDA approval.
| deno wrote:
| FWIW the EU also has EUDAMED registry for producers,
| distributors and importers of medical devices and there are
| additional regulations beyond CE under the MDR directive.
|
| I don't see "ZenBud" or "NeurGear" in the EUDAMED database.
|
| An ultrasonic device delivering energy to human tissue would
| be a class 2a or 2b active medical device under MDR.
| neves wrote:
| Just 9 patients. :-(
| nativeit wrote:
| Isn't that fairly common for the first round of human testing
| for novel treatments like this? I could certainly understand
| wanting some small scale reassurance that a wider study won't
| be throwing good money after bad.
| msabalau wrote:
| And, as in study notes, to prioritize understanding safety
| with this population before worrying about efficacy.
| inglor_cz wrote:
| It is quite normal to start with small groups for economic
| reasons. If the first results look promising, you can scale up.
| If they are a wash, you haven't spent too much money on chasing
| yet another placebo.
| j45 wrote:
| Also an opportunity to further design or evolve the study.
| jrsdav wrote:
| Not just economic (although it definitely ties into it) --
| finding an eligible patient population also another
| complicating dimension.
| nativeit wrote:
| Not surprised, but the headline is pretty terrible. This is a
| very small, early stage experiment with promising results. The
| declarative statement-of-fact in the headline is just
| irresponsible clickbait. That said, the results are promising.
| amelius wrote:
| Why not use EMDR instead?
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_movement_desensitization_a...
| j45 wrote:
| Instead of either/or why not try both?
| carabiner wrote:
| None of these treatments has a 100% success rate. You can try
| EMDR on Youtube and if it worked all the time, psychiatrists
| would be out of a job.
| apercu wrote:
| Not all licensed therapists or psychiatrists provide EMDR. Or
| did you mean psychiatrists specifically as they prescribe
| ssri's?
| airbreather wrote:
| Yeah I said it was dhit when my ex-wife said she was going to
| do it, but it definitely did something.
|
| And I am well aware of the placebo effect.
|
| But just because something is not provable or falsifiable
| under current scientific knowledge, it does not mean it is
| neccesarily quackery, there's a Venn diagram there where some
| things may be effective.
|
| Automatically discarding something that even occasionally
| gets results, because it doesn't fit current "knowledge" is
| the height of arrogance.
| Sylamore wrote:
| Sadly it made my ex-wife worse off than before - she went
| from a functioning anxious person to being completely
| overwhelmed by anxiety all the time.
| airbreather wrote:
| Unfortunate, the whole landscape on this is littered with
| mines and finding truly knowledgeable help is difficult,
| most seem to just push their favourite flavour,
| regardless of the patient.
| breppp wrote:
| > improving outcomes for therapy-resistant PTSD patients.
| msc1 wrote:
| From wikipedia:
|
| EMDR has been characterized as pseudoscience, because the
| underlying theory and primary therapeutic mechanism are
| unfalsifiable and non-scientific. EMDR's founder and other
| practitioners have used untestable hypotheses to explain
| studies which show no effect.[55] The results of the therapy
| are non-specific, especially if directed eye movements are
| irrelevant to the results. When these movements are removed,
| what remains is a broadly therapeutic interaction and deceptive
| marketing.[52][56] According to neurologist Steven Novella:
| [T]he false specificity of these treatments is a massive
| clinical distraction. Time and effort are wasted clinically in
| studying, perfecting, and using these methods, rather than
| focusing on the components of the interaction that actually
| work.[57]
| tartoran wrote:
| Possibly has placebo effect. I know someone who did EMDR and
| said it helped them a lot.
| creatonez wrote:
| It may work, but there's essentially no evidence in the medical
| literature that it does.
| haswell wrote:
| Purely anecdotal, but EMDR was not helpful for me. I'd heard
| many good things about it and had high hopes, but found it
| somewhat counterproductive. I think this somewhat depends on
| the nature of the trauma leading to the PTSD (e.g. a one time
| major event vs. complex trauma over an extended period).
|
| I was dealing with the latter.
| 0xWTF wrote:
| Link to the actual abstract on PubMed:
| https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/40097094/
| matthew_morgan wrote:
| Anyone done VNS at home?
| ferd wrote:
| Any hope to treat tinnitus? :-\
| computerdork wrote:
| There with you:( ... and actually, scheduled to get that
| "Lenire" device in a couple of weeks. Hope works
| codr7 wrote:
| I realize some people had severe damage to their ears, but for
| the rest I would recommend having a look at Nada Yoga.
| pizza wrote:
| I don't think there is clinical level evidence for it, but
| there's this thing called Trauma Releasing Exercise which
| apparently some people swear by. The idea is that you do
| extremely taxing, high neuromuscular-recruitment static holds etc
| - til the point of total muscle control loss that turns into
| widespread trembling. I would speculate that if a big part of
| feeling bad is getting stuck in a state where tension becomes a
| problematic passive default state that is hard to get out of,
| that a short, hard 'nudge' in the form of overwhelming exertion
| might be enough to 'reset'. All speculation until proven though.
|
| What's interesting about the origins of the technique is that the
| guy thought of the possibility that adults learn to suppress
| visible trauma reactions - uncontrolled shaking, etc - whereas
| children and animals wouldn't, and for whatever reason they would
| also be able to return to normal more quickly. He wondered if
| maybe that there was a tangible benefit to the shaking itself, in
| that it could help perturb out of the traumatized state itself.
| computerdork wrote:
| Wow, this makes a lot of sense. Nothing like a super intense
| workout to relieve stress. I need a short one every night after
| a long day. Feels like it erases all the crap I went through
| during the day.
| pseudocomposer wrote:
| In the last few years I've definitely learned I get some sort
| of "release" from practicing/holding handstands and other
| hand/arm-balancing moves and, later, (less so, but with less
| weird looks from people) from yoga balances (tree, warrior 3,
| eagle, [revolved] half moon, dancer).
| goda90 wrote:
| > I don't think there is clinical level evidence for it
|
| Even if it's 100% placebo, if it's not harmful, and it works
| for a person, then it works. But, determining if it's not
| harmful should be a priority. I found this person saying it
| made their life worse, for example:
| https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSD_NSCommunity/comments/ungaew/t...
| detourdog wrote:
| I think you are correct. The strangest things I have learned
| about personality disorder is that diagnosis applies for as
| long as the disordered behavior exists.
|
| If the disordered person's behavior adapts to "social norms"
| the diagnosis no longer applies.
| parineum wrote:
| You're somewhat implying this but I'm not sure if you know
| it exactly but others might find it informative...
|
| The reason for that is that the "disorder" part of it is a
| requirement that it get in the way of normal living. You
| can have anxiety but if you take a deep breath and you can
| overcome it, it's not a disorder. If that doesn't help or
| even if you just haven't tried it, it's a disorder.
| sthatipamala wrote:
| The holds are not "extremely" taxing, I would say. The tremors
| can be induced through a simple 7 step sequence of holds like
| wall sits or calf raises. There are walkthroughs on YouTube.
|
| On the TRE subreddit [0], people report being able to tremor at
| will once they have enough experience with the technique.
|
| Not trying to be pedantic, just clarifying that it is very
| accessible! I've personally been experimenting with it and find
| it to be helpful.
|
| [0] https://www.reddit.com/r/longtermTRE/
| ivape wrote:
| I don't know how I feel about this. The nature of PTSD is that
| you have a true memory, that the event happened. Imagine if I
| tell you, 9/11 was real and it happened, but from now you will
| never feel any feeling about it. What exactly did we accomplish
| here? The bombings in Gaza are real, but from now on, you will
| feel nothing about it. You see? It reads like a dystopia.
|
| There's an obsession with erasing the past and not digesting it.
| The subconscious wants reconciliation, and it will emerge over
| and over, that's what PTSD is. Lobotomizing someone is certainly
| _one way_ of reconciling it. The only way out is through imho,
| that you are forever changed and saw the face of mankind, and
| your subconscious will not accept any cheap reconciliation for
| the most part.
|
| "Just zap it", I sense the subconscious will not let you get away
| with that. You are custodian of the trauma.
| The_Amp_Walrus wrote:
| you're conflating "not having an overwhelming negative reaction
| to it" with "never feel anything about it"
|
| you can know something is bad and act accordingly without
| having a disordered and painful relationship with it
| ivape wrote:
| But you are _supposed_ to have a painful relationship with
| it. You are never ever supposed to be at peace with it. It 's
| who you become as the holder of that pain that provides any
| foundation. In a sense, "zapping it" limits your potential. A
| surrogate mother robs the mother of child-bearing (in all
| normal cases like Kim Kardashian, not for cases where the
| original mother cannot physically give birth). That's just a
| fact. The trauma event has already robbed them, why rob them
| twice?
|
| Most people will have no capacity to feel what you feel about
| it. You have the gift of feeling what is _necessary_ to feel
| about that event. It 's precious, and it needs to be
| nurtured. My utter contempt and sorrow for what I feel about
| certain things belongs in the world, as best as I can hold
| and steer it.
|
| No one can feel your pain, and if you zap it, then not even
| you can feel it. It's unloving to yourself and your
| experience.
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