[HN Gopher] CLion Is Now Free for Non-Commercial Use
___________________________________________________________________
CLion Is Now Free for Non-Commercial Use
Author : AlexeyBrin
Score : 499 points
Date : 2025-05-07 12:18 UTC (10 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (blog.jetbrains.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (blog.jetbrains.com)
| bayindirh wrote:
| This is good news. I for one, won't change my toolchain, but
| having a "free for personal use" alternative is always better,
| esp. when the license includes open source development.
|
| Like it or not, C++ is not going anywhere in the short and long
| term, so it's always good to have _real_ IDEs around (CLion,
| Eclipse CDT, etc.) which can integrate with good instrumentation
| and give real time feedback on your code.
| 1over137 wrote:
| Free version sends telemetry with no opt-out.
| bayindirh wrote:
| Yes, that one is a real bummer, actually, but if they're using
| something like how Go does it [0], at least it's tolerable if
| you're bound to using it.
|
| [0]: https://telemetry.go.dev/privacy
| enigma101 wrote:
| just use a firewall, no?
| pjmlp wrote:
| There is your price right there.
| ainiriand wrote:
| Can you give us proof of that? I have not seen anything like
| that in my RustRover usage but it might be that I have missed
| that.
| hiq wrote:
| It's in the article:
|
| > It's important to note that, if you're using a non-
| commercial license, you cannot opt out of the collection of
| anonymous usage statistics.
| dardeaup wrote:
| From the link: "It's important to note that, if you're using
| a non-commercial license, you cannot opt out of the
| collection of anonymous usage statistics."
| pasoevi wrote:
| You can still use paid version if you want to turn telemetry
| off. With the free version, you can either use it and say
| thanks, or not use it at all.
| badsectoracula wrote:
| Indeed, this is one of the various options one has.
|
| Another option is to not use it _and_ be vocal against
| telemetry, hopefully convincing others to do the same while
| dissuading other developers (especially in a forum like
| Hacker News where people that build stuff gather) from adding
| it on their products.
| pasoevi wrote:
| I wouldn't take people seriously who are vocal against
| telemetry in a product which has paid version with the
| option to turn telemetry off. Such people would be vocal
| against paying for the work others do. Also, if properly
| anonymised, telemetry isn't the devil people make it to be.
| badsectoracula wrote:
| > I wouldn't take people seriously who are vocal against
| telemetry in a product which has paid version with the
| option to turn telemetry off.
|
| You are conflating two separate things, a product does
| not need telemetry to function and if telemetry is needed
| it can be opt-in. Similarly a product does not need to be
| free to have telemetry nor does it need to be paid to not
| have telemetry, as i already wrote these two are
| completely separate.
|
| > Such people would be vocal against paying for the work
| others do.
|
| Again you are conflating two completely separate things:
| people being concerned about the privacy implications of
| telemetry (both directly and indirectly, see below) and
| people who are against about paying others for their
| work.
|
| > Also, if properly anonymised, telemetry isn't the devil
| people make it to be.
|
| Even if anonymized (which is something you can only
| guarantee for open source projects that either you or
| someone you trust has checked they do such anonymization
| properly - and also you either build yourself from the
| source that was checked or you used a binary from a
| reproducible build) having telemetry in place still
| creates and reinforces a precedent of it being acceptable
| which in turn can be used to excuse other programs doing
| the same but those programs actually not caring about
| doing proper anonymization (at best) or even outright
| spying on you (at worst).
|
| Besides anonymized data can still be used in conjunction
| with other data to be deanonymized and the best way to
| protect users from this is to not collect that data in
| the first place.
| pasoevi wrote:
| I'm not conflating these two things. I didn't say they
| have to have telemetry to keep it free. All I am saying
| is, if you have the option to pay and decide whether you
| give them telemetry or not, then there is no reason being
| vocal about them giving you more for free. It is a
| company and they need to make profit. If more users with
| telemetry enabled gives them more data that they can use
| to indirectly increase their profit, I only applaud them.
| If they stopped allowing to turn telemetry off for the
| product in paid version as well, then you would have a
| valid point.
|
| That said, nothing wrong with being vocal about privacy
| and high standards in collecting usage.
| throwaway51034 wrote:
| Privacy is a fundamental human right, not something you
| get to withhold from people until they give you money.
|
| Yes, I could pay them to get a product that lets me
| disable telemetry. I'd much rather just use something
| else, so I don't have to fund their unethical business
| practices.
| bigstrat2003 wrote:
| That is an extremely disingenuous framing of the topic.
| They make a product, which you can pay money for. If you
| prefer, they will also let you pay by sending them usage
| telemetry. In neither case are you being deprived of a
| human right or extorted in any way - it's a transaction
| where you receive a benefit in exchange for something you
| give to them.
| unclad5968 wrote:
| Genuine question. Why do you care if other people agree
| with you about telemetry? I almost always enable telemetry
| on anything I don't believe will serve me ads.
| pjmlp wrote:
| Democracy is the dictorship of the majority, thus when
| majority is fine with telemetry disabling it won't be an
| option any longer.
| blibble wrote:
| facebook were certainly slapped down for attempting "consent
| or pay"
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consent_or_pay
|
| "anonymised" data is often extremely easy to de-anonymise
| KronisLV wrote:
| Compared to most UI dark patterns and scummy tactics to get
| you to "consent" (actually tricking you into agreeing,
| because nobody can't be bothered to jump through like a
| bunch of legalese and dialogs), them just giving you that
| choice of straight up paying feels better.
|
| Not really interested in their services, but at least that
| sort of payment would let me expect less trickery in the
| future.
|
| > Critics of this consent model have called it "pay-or-
| okay", claiming that the monthly fee is disproportional and
| that users are not able to withdraw their consent to
| tracking as easily as it is given, which the GDPR requires.
| Massimiliano Gelmi, a data protection lawyer at NOYB, has
| stated that "The law is clear, withdrawing consent must be
| as easy as giving it in the first place. It is painfully
| obvious that paying EUR251,88 per year to withdraw consent
| is not as easy as clicking an 'Okay' button to accept the
| tracking."
|
| Under this model, you'd just have to refuse service to
| everyone who doesn't pay (killing your platform) or let
| people partake in your platform with no revenue off of them
| (killing your platform). Neither seems reasonable from the
| perspective of that business? Are they just supposed to
| find other ways of monetizing their users or perish then?
| ndriscoll wrote:
| Yes, declaring that to be illegitimate is the point. Just
| like we declare polluting rivers to be illegitimate
| despite it being good for business.
| sofixa wrote:
| > anonymised" data is often extremely easy to de-anonymise
|
| If it's location data, yes. If it's your IDE usage stats
| (plugins, file types, whatever), not really.
| woodson wrote:
| Maybe it includes a list of fonts installed on your
| system, your screen resolution, etc. You don't need much
| to get a "fingerprint" that is anonymous but can be
| correlated with those collected by other tools'
| telemetry.
| xp84 wrote:
| In theory yes? But if state actors, the ones with the
| sophistication to literally build a signature based on
| your fonts using your IDE, and then infiltrate a second
| application to do... whatever... if they want you that
| bad, they're eventually just going to get you, even if
| they have to just send someone to your house with a rusty
| wrench to retrieve all your passwords. Those guys can get
| the job done much more cheaply anyway.
| blibble wrote:
| so we shouldn't worry about de-anonymisation because the
| government could kick your door down?
|
| seems like a weak argument
| ndriscoll wrote:
| It's nonetheless useful for people to warn others about
| spyware. You can find the tradeoff acceptable (or be
| willing/able to put the necessary isolation in place) while
| thanking the other commenter for the heads up.
| riquito wrote:
| Not that people are obligated to use IntelliJ IDEs, but it's
| sad that it boils down to "You can have privacy if you can
| afford it". But admittedly is better to have the option to
| use it than not being able to use it at all
| atemerev wrote:
| Their telemetry promises not to collect private data. Yes,
| your code will probably used for training their models. But
| so it would be if you publish it on GitHub.
| ndriscoll wrote:
| All data on my computer is private unless I specifically
| make it public. Data thieves like to make a rhetorical
| sleight of hand where they say they're not really
| collecting data about you (this happens especially with
| the topic of "differential privacy"), but that's just
| gaslighting (i.e. trying to manipulate you into thinking
| you simply don't _understand_ what they are doing). e.g.
| I 'm not willing to share noisy correlations about my
| preferences either. That information is _private_ , and
| it _is_ information, or they wouldn 't want it.
| atemerev wrote:
| Then you are free to not use their product.
|
| My privacy is indeed differential. I am willing to give
| them the information on my coding patterns and even non-
| commercial code for a free license, if it is not linked
| to my identity. This is a fair exchange. I am not willing
| to do this if they will use this information to sell me
| ads, or sell it (unless properly anonymized) to some
| other company. And most certainly I won't agree if they
| collect any information beyond what's happen in the IDE.
|
| Not _everything_ I do on my computer is fully private. I
| apply much stricter standards to things that are _really_
| private. But not everything is like this.
|
| This comment is public. It will probably be used to train
| yet another LLM. I am fine with that.
| ndriscoll wrote:
| Sure, but as I said elsewhere, it's still important that
| people point out that past the headline ("it's free") is
| that it is also malware (it spies on you). People were
| free to not use BonziBuddy as well, but it was rightfully
| characterized at the time as spyware. If the product also
| functioned as a proxy for botnet traffic, you wouldn't
| simply say "well you're free to not use it". You'd say
| "beware, the 'free' version is malware". Spyware is
| similar.
|
| Posting to a public online forum is of course
| specifically making the post public.
| rustc wrote:
| How is this not illegal under GDPR? I thought asking users to
| pay money to not be tracked is not allowed.
| wiseowise wrote:
| It's anonymized, GDPR doesn't apply.
| varispeed wrote:
| So if you are poor, you are ripe for getting your data mined.
| Excellent.
| wiseowise wrote:
| Food and fresh water costs money too, newsflash.
| lern_too_spel wrote:
| They're probably using the telemetry to monitor commercial
| abuse.
| anastasiak2512 wrote:
| The telemetry is used to analyzed the most used / unused
| features and to improve the product. For example, it's useful
| to understand that some specific technology gains more
| popularity among users and contribute more into its support.
| lern_too_spel wrote:
| I have no doubt that this is the primary use. It was the
| only way to use that data until now. Now that there is a
| free offering, there is a new potential use that neatly
| explains why it is required in the free offering and
| optional otherwise.
| pacman1337 wrote:
| couldn't we just block the traffic with /etc/hosts?
| Someone wrote:
| So, they're contradicting themselves, saying both
| (https://blog.jetbrains.com/clion/2025/05/clion-is-now-
| free-f...)
|
| _"With the new non-commercial license type, you can enjoy a
| full-featured IDE that is identical to its paid version. The
| only difference is in the Code With Me feature - you get Code
| With Me Community with your free license."_
|
| and (https://blog.jetbrains.com/clion/2025/05/clion-is-now-
| free-f...)
|
| _"We appreciate that this might not be convenient for
| everyone, but there is unfortunately no way to opt out of
| sending anonymized statistics to JetBrains under the terms of
| the Toolbox agreement for non-commercial use. The only way to
| opt out is by switching to either a paid subscription or one of
| the complimentary options mentioned here."_
|
| Also, if _they_ find that _unfortunate_ , why did they make the
| product do that?
| codedokode wrote:
| > there is unfortunately no way to opt out of sending
| anonymized statistics
|
| There is a way - simply use an open source alternative to
| JetBrains.
| DemetriousJones wrote:
| Awesome news
| andy_ppp wrote:
| What's the Duck Duck Go equivalent for editors these days?
| Everything seems to be spying on me and/or offering to send my
| code to AI in the cloud.
| candiddevmike wrote:
| VSCodium without any extensions? IMO it's the extensions that
| are the big exfil risk, not necessarily the editor.
| bartekpacia wrote:
| CLion (and other JetBrains IDEs for that matter) doesn't send
| any of your code to AI in the Cloud (unless you use sth like AI
| Assistant yourself, of course)
| andy_ppp wrote:
| It does send telemetry and analytics I believe? I should have
| been broader in the tracking I specified...
| tredre3 wrote:
| All duckduckgo software is filled with telemetry and
| analytics that cannot be disabled (The search engine, the
| Android web browser, the Windows web browser).
| yegg wrote:
| FWIW All DuckDuckGo telemetry is completely anonymous:
| https://duckduckgo.com/duckduckgo-help-pages/privacy/atb
| badsectoracula wrote:
| I've been using Kate (KDE's advanced text editor) recently.
| bayindirh wrote:
| That thing is wicked fast and works really well with gopls.
| rockwotj wrote:
| neovim
| bitwize wrote:
| The old standbys of Vim and Emacs.
| bayindirh wrote:
| Eclipse for IDE and KATE for "Code aware text editor".
| lknuth wrote:
| Helix if you like working in your terminal.
| QuadmasterXLII wrote:
| vim, with a clangd plugin for ide like navigation and error
| hints
| pjmlp wrote:
| Notepad++, SublimeText, vi and Emacs clones, Netbeans,
| Eclipse,....
| jszymborski wrote:
| Eclipse is still around...
| symmetricsaurus wrote:
| Doom Emacs (https://github.com/doomemacs/doomemacs)
| deafpolygon wrote:
| neovim is what I've switched to. Ironically, using ChatGPT has
| made it easier to adopt and customize.
| FpUser wrote:
| I have subscription that covers all their tools. CLion is my
| favorite when dealing with C++. So glad that hobbyist can use it
| now
| jasonlotito wrote:
| So... not that it really matters I imagine, but JetBrains
| doesn't do pure subscription. Rather, you buy your IDEs, and
| effectively have a perpetual license to the product you bought.
| You get free upgrades, and if you keep paying, your license
| gets updated along with it.
|
| If you don't continue paying, you still have the IDE you paid
| for. You just don't get updates. This seems like a subtle
| distinction, but I think it's an important one in the world of
| subscription services.
|
| https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207240845-What...
| inetknght wrote:
| So it's like what software licenses were 20 years ago. That's
| a good thing.
| FpUser wrote:
| Yep. Having perpetual license is precondition for me buying
| major development tools.
| dismalaf wrote:
| JetBrains does have a subscription option, including a
| monthly subscription to get all their tools.
| WhereIsTheTruth wrote:
| I wish they'd extract the debugger and release it as a
| crossplatform standalone tool, i'd pay for it
| freeone3000 wrote:
| The debugger is primarily lldb, which has the same features
| (watches, expressions, locals) with not as slick a UI.
| kanwisher wrote:
| the debugger without the ide doesn't make any sense, just use
| the ide for debugging
| shortrounddev2 wrote:
| Personally dislike jetbrains UX design but it's cool that Linux
| has a really good, free-ish IDE
| memsom wrote:
| If you use more than one of their IDEs on a regular basis, I'm
| going to be honest - it starts to make more sense that the
| change between IDEs is less jarring. I use Rider a lot, and
| Pycharm and Android Studio infrequently, and I like that all of
| the IDEs are so similar that I know how to do most things as
| the settings and menu system is almost identical. I also use
| the IDEs on Windows, Mac and sometimes Linux - and the UI is
| similar enough that I do not ever struggle to make something
| work that I have previously done in any of the platforms or OS
| versions
| jghn wrote:
| Also alternatives like VSCode have garbage for a debugging &
| profiling workflow compared to Jetbrains.
| videogreg93 wrote:
| This is amazing news. As a long time IntelliJ user (Android dev
| for 7+ years) who wants to start doing more c++, having free
| access to Clion is a godsend.
| eric-p7 wrote:
| Nobody actually wants to start doing more c++.
| discmonkey wrote:
| Assuming that the plugin is enabled for the free version, CLion
| is also amazing for Rust. Thanks Jetbrains!
|
| Here's hoping this won't be abused by smaller companies that will
| no longer want to pay for the actual subscription. I also wonder
| if they are moving towards a different funding model, since the
| IDE space is pretty competitive with a free alternative (VSCode)
| out there.
| ainiriand wrote:
| RustRover is already free for Non-Commercial use! I think it is
| the best IDE for Rust dev.
| weinzierl wrote:
| Yes, it is quite nice. That being said I keep a little
| statistic about IDE usage at the Rust events I attend. I have
| observed RustRover or CLion only three times at the 48 events
| I've recorded. One of these three was an event at JetBrains.
| To be fair, I started my notes long before RustRover existed.
|
| neovim is marginally more popular.
|
| vscode is the crushing majority.
| pasoevi wrote:
| Great news. It is beyond me how people are complaining about the
| free version not allowing to turn off telemetry. Why don't you
| stick to the paid version if you are bothered by the (anonymous)
| telemetry?
| badsectoracula wrote:
| Because these two are completely separate things.
| pasoevi wrote:
| How?
| badsectoracula wrote:
| See my reply to the other comment you made[0] where you
| basically say the same thing.
|
| [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43915600
| ndriscoll wrote:
| Same reason responsible technologists warned less-informed
| users about installing BonziBuddy. It was a free product that
| told jokes or whatever just as it said it would. It was also
| spyware.
|
| Responsible technologists should raise the alarm on spyware
| products because they are harmful toward their users. Malware
| is often given away for "free" (sometimes even sent to you
| without you asking!), so it doesn't really make sense to say
| "well that's the deal". Somehow people seem to be forgetting
| this over the years (I suspect because a lot more technologists
| make money from participating in the surveillance/malware
| economy these days, and it's gotten so bad that some of them
| have started to think malware distribution and exfiltrating
| (and often selling) user data is not a thoroughly black-hat
| activity).
|
| If you're okay with adware or spyware or crypto miners or
| botnet proxies or whatever else running on your computer as a
| form of "payment", great. You consider that a reasonable
| "transaction". Other people appreciate being warned about such
| behavior. In any case, one shouldn't consider the product to be
| "free" as advertised.
| missinglugnut wrote:
| Having a checkbox that says "opt out of usage statistics"
| doesn't protect anyone against malware. Downloading from
| trusted counterparties does.
| ndriscoll wrote:
| Gathering user consent is what makes the difference between
| malware and not. If you click "Yes, upload this crash
| report" or "Yes, upload stats on what buttons I click",
| that's the program acting according to your wishes. If the
| program gathers and transmits that data without you asking
| or reviewing it and against your wishes, that's malware
| (i.e. malicious software that causes the computer to
| undermine its owner). Basically, does the computer obey the
| owner or not?
| hiq wrote:
| I'm curious about what non-commercial means in practice.
|
| > Common examples of non-commercial uses include learning and
| self-education, open-source contributions without earning
| commercial benefits
|
| What if I start writing code, let's say 80% of a codebase, then
| for the next 3 months I switch to another editor to write the
| next 20%, and then commercialize the support (so open-source but
| with commercial benefits)? Would it be about intent, i.e. it'd be
| fine if I had no plan to make a business out of it at the
| beginning, but as soon as there's the idea of a business I should
| have switched?
|
| I guess in practice this mostly targets companies with 10+
| employees so it's fine not to draw the line that clearly?
| speed_spread wrote:
| It means "stay under the radar if you are cheap". This is
| Jetbrains, not Oracle, there isn't an army of lawyers out to
| get you the second you breach the agreement.
| dagmx wrote:
| It's a shame but not unexpected that people reward smaller
| companies giving their products away for free by trying to
| abuse the spirit of it.
| deafpolygon wrote:
| Probably why they want telemetry. Then, if you go on to make
| billions- they can sue when it's worth it.
| subzero06 wrote:
| If something is free, you are the product - it is "free" but
| Anonymous data is collected.
| dist-epoch wrote:
| Exactly, this I why I won't use Linux or Firefox, I don't want
| to be the product.
| creatonez wrote:
| Most Linux distros are completely free of any builtin
| telemetry. Your fears are unwarranted.
| 333c wrote:
| I believe that's the point being made by the comment you're
| replying to
| cbpowell wrote:
| My impression (perhaps incorrect) was that the guy was
| being sarcastic.
| thadt wrote:
| We at the HN do not have a sense of humor we're aware of.
| inetknght wrote:
| Linux is free as in _free speech_. It 's also _open source_.
|
| Firefox... is free as in _free beer_.
| noisem4ker wrote:
| Firefox is covered by the Mozilla Public License (MPL),
| which is a free-as-in-freedom, open source software
| license.
|
| What's your definition of freedom?
| inetknght wrote:
| > _Firefox is covered by the Mozilla Public License
| (MPL), which is a free-as-in-freedom_
|
| Firefox is subject to a non-free terms of use.
|
| > _What 's your definition of freedom?_
|
| Let me use the software without limitation.
| creatonez wrote:
| This AUP is related to the optional backend services run
| by Mozilla. The frontends for all of these services are
| open source, with no usage restrictions. It doesn't
| affect how Firefox is licensed in terms of copyright.
| Additionally, the backends for some of these services
| (such as Firefox Sync and Mozilla Accounts) are fully
| open source, so you could avoid the AUP if you wanted to.
| ____________g wrote:
| I generally agree with the sentiment--if something is free,
| there's often a tradeoff. But when there's a paid tier, the
| free version can act more like an entry point or hook to get
| users into the ecosystem, rather than relying on harvesting
| user data. In JetBrains' case, broad adoption brings a lot of
| strategic value on its own (like establishing industry
| standards or building community mindshare), so it makes sense
| for them to offer a genuinely free version without necessarily
| treating users as the product.
| toprerules wrote:
| Every once in a while I fire up the old JetBrains Java monolith
| to see if it's finally surpassed my open source setup for the
| 200$ a year and up price tag and locked in spyware. Turns out
| it's actually somehow worse than previous iterations now that I
| need AI integrations, their models are awful, it's still a clunky
| resource hog on it's own, and there's nothing you can get for
| 200$ that you can't get paying yourself and installing some
| VSCode or Vim plugins that do the same stuff for free (and
| without the spyware).
| NoboruWataya wrote:
| Agree that it is a crazy resource hog and I don't like the AI
| integrations either. But I gotta say for UI and features it is
| very good. I haven't been able to get VSCode or neovim to offer
| the same kind of easily actionable code diagnostics and
| suggestions as JetBrains IDEs do out of the box. I'm not saying
| it's not possible, but I couldn't quite match it even with a
| fair bit of tinkering.
| KronisLV wrote:
| I like the AI integrations (they me use Claude Sonnet 3.7,
| Gemini 2.5 and GPT 4.1 with my all products pack) and quite
| enjoy their Junie tool, much better than my attempts at
| getting Aider working.
|
| UI seems pretty okay, at least on the 2025 versions of the
| tools (in compact mode, Inter 12 as the custom UI font on a
| 1080p monitor) but still quite the resource hog.
|
| Oh well, I'm actually going to try their Fleet as well after
| reinstalling my OS because it was worse than VSC the last
| time I tried it, might be better now.
| sitefail1 wrote:
| It's not. The functionality gap between VSC and Fleet has
| further widened, and its future looks even more unsure now
| they backed out the Kotlin native stuff back to the main
| IDEs.
| jillesvangurp wrote:
| The community edition of intellij and pycharm is Apache 2.0
| licensed and you can use those for commercial development.
| Pycharm is about similar to vs code (I've used both). But
| intellij blows the Java & Kotlin support in vs code out of the
| water. It's not even remotely close. Reason, Java has several
| decent OSS IDEs as an alternative and those would win by
| default if the only option was a paid IDE. Clion and Rustover
| are somewhere in between I suspect.
|
| VS Code plugins vary from language to language. And commercial
| non OSS tools for native development are pretty common (e.g.
| Visual Studio, XCode, etc.). So, I guess Jetbrains feels more
| comfortable charging for Clion and Rustover for commercial
| development because they know they are that good. But nothing
| wrong if you don't appreciate what is on offer.
|
| Yes these tools use some memory and CPU. But then I use a
| decent laptop as well so it doesn't matter to me. Pretty normal
| to be spending on proper tools if you do this stuff
| professionally.
| mdaniel wrote:
| > Pycharm is about similar to vs code
|
| You and I have had _vastly_ different experiences. PyCharm,
| like the rest of their tooling, will catch the most amazing
| bugs and LSPs don 't hold a candle to that
| ____________g wrote:
| I'm intrigued--what's your setup? Do you use any advanced
| refactoring features like Change Signature or Extract Selected
| Members? It's been a couple of years since I last tried setting
| up Java in VS Code, and I'm curious how far things have come.
| Intuitively, I'd expect JetBrains to have the upper hand in
| this area, since they can build specialized UIs for complex
| tasks, rather than being constrained by the limitations of the
| Language Server Protocol.
| troupo wrote:
| > I'm intrigued--what's your setup?
|
| Quite often it's vim/emacs with a crazy collection of plugins
| and custom-written scripts where the most powerful tool is a
| fuzzy search.
|
| Surprisingly few people know what an actual powerful IDE can
| even do.
| toprerules wrote:
| Incorrect, many of them do, and make the determination that
| a few nice to have features doesn't outweigh the cost, lock
| in, and incongruence with the use of open source software
| where possible.
|
| I know several world class developers who have invented
| corner stone technologies that use text editors without any
| plugins and just run the compiler in a separate window. It
| turns out that you actually are not held back by not having
| your hand held by an IDE, it was just a skill issue.
| troupo wrote:
| > Incorrect, many of them do,
|
| Most of the time in these discussions it's revealed that
| no, they don't.
|
| The rest is a non-sequitur
|
| Edit: Oh. You don't know either
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43917174
| the__alchemist wrote:
| This gives me the impression that you are speaking about
| something you don't have tacit experience with.
| toprerules wrote:
| Nowadays I just use an LLM. None of these features are
| relevant anymore. Unless JetBrains has a proprietary LLM that
| is better at coding than what ever else is on the market
| (they don't) then there's no reason to pay money for their
| products.
|
| I am not even particularly bullish on AI, but not seeing how
| LLMs have made IDEs irrelevant is like using Vim and crying
| foul about IDEs without trying one out.
| simion314 wrote:
| My example, my coworkers use VS code, so I review their code
| and my IDE is highlighting a few bugs in a function, bugs like
| $x is not defined , so I ask if thir IDE does not show any
| warning for that code, and yes, VS Code had ZERO warnings. The
| dev copy pasted some code but forgot this $x variable in,
| either he needed to copy it or remove it.
|
| So I am sure someone will say that after you install VS code
| you should install X and Y plugins or some npm packages that
| you trigger later in the build to catch this errors. With
| Intellij I get them without screwing around with VS code
| plugins or vim plugins, and I also feel good that I pay some
| developers to work on a tool I use then use Microsoft product
| that would instantly fuck me over when Intellij would be killed
| by this unfair competition. Or did I read recently Microsoft
| already started with their bullshit related to the extensions
| and AI ?
| zoobab wrote:
| So it will never be in Debian.
| hbn wrote:
| I'm super happy JetBrains has been opening up all their editors
| to offer free access for non-commercial use. I've never made any
| money off of my occasional side projects, so I could never
| justify the cost to pay for a license when I may go an entire
| year without using. But I really love their editors - their key
| mappings are an extension of me at this point, it's so smart
| about figuring out how the code works and letting you find usages
| or refactor without thinking, and their git UI is basically the
| only way I find git tolerable.
|
| I may or may not have been abusing the fact that my university
| let me keep my email address as an alumni to squeeze more years
| out of their free access for students, though that seemed to stop
| working for me at some point a year or 2 ago. But I'll happily
| take this instead!
| rob74 wrote:
| > _I 'm super happy JetBrains has been opening up all their
| editors to offer free access for non-commercial use._
|
| All? That would be news to me! From the 10 IDEs (not counting
| ReSharper, which iss a plugin vor Visual Studio) listed on
| https://www.jetbrains.com/ides/#choose-your-ide, only CLion,
| Rider, RustRover and WebStorm are free for non-commercial use.
| Plus, each of the products has its own free or discounted
| licenses for certain users (e.g. students).
| jackwilsdon wrote:
| There are community editions of IDEA and PyCharm which are
| free for commercial use too.
| wing-_-nuts wrote:
| Right, but goland, and importantly the go plugin for
| intellij are both not free, which is a bummer
| NoboruWataya wrote:
| I have been using PyCharm, IDEA and Android Studio for free
| for a while now. I'm not a student or any special category of
| user. I think you only get "core" features for free but they
| sure still among the most featureful IDEs that I have used.
| hbn wrote:
| Well, I said "has been," as in, in-the-process!
|
| I'm not sure why the staggered rollout, maybe there's
| strategic reasons certain ones will never have a free non-
| commercial license. But so far they've been consistently
| opening them up one-by-one.
| NoahKAndrews wrote:
| It'll be interesting to see what they do for PyCharm and
| IntelliJ, which already have free Community Editions. Long
| term, I doubt they'll want to have two types of free
| version that restrict usage in completely different ways,
| but if they kill the Community Editions, anyone using them
| for commercial use will have to either build from source
| (hopefully the end of community editions wouldn't mean the
| end of the open source parts), start paying, or switch to
| an alternative.
|
| I'm making zero predictions about what they'll do, there's
| a lot of ways it could go.
| lolinder wrote:
| "Has been opening" is the present perfect continuous tense
| [0], which describes something that started in the past and
| is still ongoing. In TFA JetBrains says explicitly that this
| is a process that they intend to continue assuming it goes
| well.
|
| [0] https://www.grammarly.com/blog/grammar/present-perfect-
| conti...
| dardeaup wrote:
| Not all of them. I believe it's IntelliJ, Rider, CLion and
| maybe 1 or 2 others. GoLand for example is not yet free for
| non-commercial use.
| NoahKAndrews wrote:
| It's CLion, Rider, RustRover, and WebStorm, IntelliJ is not
| on the list.
|
| So far they haven't muddied the waters for any versions that
| already had free Community Editions (IntelliJ and PyCharm).
| The Community Editions are more limited, but don't restrict
| commercial use.
| Defletter wrote:
| > The Community Editions are more limited, but don't
| restrict commercial use.
|
| I've always wondered about this. I have the All-Products
| Pack subscription, don't get me wrong, but I used to have
| the Educational licence when I was in university. What was
| there to stop me from using it for commercial purposes? I
| get that the licence restrictions are likely more targeted
| towards medium to large businesses than little ol' me, but
| to what extent is it just an honour system? Just don't
| commit your .idea/ folder and basically no one would have
| any the wiser?
| NoahKAndrews wrote:
| As far as I know the commercial use restriction is pretty
| much entirely the honor system, with some risk of a
| lawsuit if they found out somehow.
| vishnugupta wrote:
| They have this terrific plan where if you buy yearly
| subscription you will get the major version free for life even
| after you stop paying after one year.
|
| I was pleasantly surprised when I discovered it. Been using it
| since then for like 3-4 years now.
| William_BB wrote:
| I used to be a CLion user. Unfortunately, it could not keep up
| with our large and heavily templated C++ codebase. Although CLion
| Nova with the new ReSharper engine improved things a lot, we
| found our custom clangd with emacs/vim/VSCode to still be much
| faster and convenient.
|
| I know CLion also has clangd, but I believe it's their own fork.
| I am also not sure if you can enable all clangd features since
| it's not the main engine. I'd be happy to hear people's thoughts
| about this.
| mdaniel wrote:
| My experience has been than complaining into HN does not result
| in changes to software. Have you submitted a profiling dump to
| YouTrack?
|
| I have a lot of sympathy for someone trying to make an IDE (or
| any introspection tooling) because the number of ways humans
| can come up with to organize or author code is unlimited. So,
| I'm sure they would welcome feedback on "hey, watch out,
| modeling templates using this mechanism has bad perf in this
| IDE component"
| William_BB wrote:
| Not complaining at all! I have just heard of other people
| facing the same issues and assumed that this must be a well-
| known problem. It might also just be template heavy projects
| -- maybe it works great otherwise. I don't have much
| experience with CLion in other contexts.
| koakuma-chan wrote:
| I had the same experience with a large and heavily macroed
| Rust codebase.
| varispeed wrote:
| Why would you do that for a commercial product without
| getting paid?
| nilamo wrote:
| Why would you pay for a product and never want it to
| improve your workflows?
| throwaway51034 wrote:
| It's a commercial product. Expecting people to work for free
| for a billion dollar company seems a little out of touch.
| JetBrains can contact GP and discuss rates if they value that
| data.
| sgt wrote:
| Incidentally, I recently tested Zig and I decided to try out
| CLion as the Zig IDE. Seems to work great with the ZigBrains
| plugin. It's still in development but ready for use.
| cgh wrote:
| Thank you, this is excellent information. Hopefully it beats
| the Kate + LSP experience.
| wizrrd wrote:
| Make all IDEs free for non-commercial use to attract more users
| who might pay for services in the future -- a win-win strategy.
| inetknght wrote:
| Oh hell yeah! I used CLion about 6 or 7 years ago at my job, and
| it was a pretty _great_ product for small projects. It used to
| slow down really bad for a medium-sized project though and I
| switched to VSCode.
|
| I've since moved on to new employers, but I'd love to check it
| out again.
|
| > _It's important to note that, if you're using a non-commercial
| license, you cannot opt out of the collection of anonymous usage
| statistics. We use this information to improve our products._
|
| Well, it's basically true for MS-branded VSCode too. I now use
| VSCodium.
|
| But I'm heavily against Microsoft. I don't _like_ usage
| statistics collection, but at least this is a direct competitor
| to Microsoft.
|
| I had a chance to speak to some of the JetBrains folk at CppCon a
| couple years back. It was really nice and reassuring.
|
| I'll check it out for personal projects and see if it's improved
| since years ago. :)
| riquito wrote:
| > > It's important to note that, if you're using a non-
| commercial license, you cannot opt out of the collection of
| anonymous usage statistics. We use this information to improve
| our products.
|
| > Well, it's basically true for MS-branded VSCode too. I now
| use VSCodium.
|
| How's that "basically true"? That's false. You can opt out. In
| fact there's very good documentation around that
|
| https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/configure/telemetry
| hyper57 wrote:
| According to Microsoft's own license terms for VS Code, you
| can't opt out of all telemetry; see Section 2a:
| https://code.visualstudio.com/license
|
| > You may opt-out of many of these scenarios, but not all, as
| described in the product documentation located at
| https://code.visualstudio.com/docs/supporting/faq#_how-to-
| di....
|
| Also, each extension (including Microsoft's) may collect its
| own telemetry. The blog post
| https://www.roboleary.net/tools/2022/04/20/vscode-telemetry
| has more details.
|
| Personally, I think it's a shame that JetBrains get such
| flack for collecting telemetry in their free products when
| Microsoft do the same in VS Code with hardly anyone voicing
| the same level of criticism for it.
| voidspark wrote:
| > a shame that JetBrains get such flack for collecting
| telemetry in their free products
|
| Probably 99.99% of developers don't care.
|
| The ones who complain about it online are a tiny vocal
| minority.
| nsm wrote:
| Jdk improvements and the new Nova/Rider backend how
| dramatically improved JetBrains performance. I highly encourage
| you to give it another shot.
| paxys wrote:
| It's wild to me that Jetbrains has been making so many top-tier
| IDEs, languages, runtimes and other developer products for 25
| years now and is valued at _maybe_ $5B, meanwhile we have months-
| old "pre-revenue" startups releasing AI coding wrappers and
| raising money or being bought out for twice that.
| OtomotO wrote:
| The power of hype.
|
| The same was true for Web3, Crypto, Machine Learning...
| SJC_Hacker wrote:
| Was crypto really hype? BTC has been around for almost 15
| years now, and has been on a bumpy rise up to multiples of
| its value
| dgfitz wrote:
| Ever heard that saying about finding the sucker at a poker
| table?
| raincole wrote:
| I did. The first time I heard people describe crypto as
| such, Bitcoin was at $5000.
| paxys wrote:
| The only good investment in crypto has been to buy and hold
| BTC. So while it has worked well as an asset (like gold or
| paintings or baseball cards), the crypto industry itself -
| thousands of startups in the space, all the altcoins,
| blockchains, smart contracts, web3, NFTs, ICOs, DeFi,
| "stable" coins - have all either fizzled out or just been
| outright fraud.
| FergusArgyll wrote:
| I don't know how anyone can still say Crypto was "hype". Sure
| the vast majority of it _is_ but USDC alone market cap is
| north of 60 Billion, there is nothing speculative about USDC.
| You can 't make money by someone else losing etc etc. Tether
| stablecoin is ~150 Billion. Just those two, means the value
| of Crypto minus rug pulls, scams or anything else is over 200
| Billion - more than the value of OpenAI
| atemerev wrote:
| Well, that's the difference between being in Silicon Valley and
| not being there.
| oytis wrote:
| Isn't this criterion just a bit irrational for people
| entrusted with investing billions of dollars?
| atemerev wrote:
| People entrusted with investing billions of dollars are
| very much not rational, as we can observe every day.
|
| Additionally, network effects and experience input and VC
| concentration in Silicon Valley are very real and very
| rational. For VCs, why go anywhere else if the best of the
| world are flocking towards you already?
|
| This might change in the near future, but I doubt it.
| hyperhopper wrote:
| > For VCs, why go anywhere else if the best of the world
| are flocking towards you already?
|
| Very false. A lot of the best in the world have no
| intention of ever living in silicon valley. In my circles
| people dread even a week long trip there.
| ToucanLoucan wrote:
| Because the products being good isn't what investors look for.
| Investors look for good business. And, assuming they can
| actually make it work, putting together AI coding apps that get
| software "engineers" to outsource enough of their thinking to a
| machine that they can then jack the price through the ceiling
| on and make bank via enterprise billing is incredibly good
| business.
|
| However that is a load bearing if.
| TiredOfLife wrote:
| Cursor is 2 and Windsurf is 3 years old.
| miroljub wrote:
| Those are not even IDEs. They are just forks of a fork.
| TiredOfLife wrote:
| Which ide VS Code is a fork of?
| paxys wrote:
| Not a direct fork but VS Code was built on the foundation
| of Atom, and heavily inspired by it. People generally
| consider VS Code to be the successor of Atom, especially
| after Microsoft bought out the creator of Atom/Electron
| (Github) and shut down the project.
| make3 wrote:
| and Atom is an electron clone of Sublime Text
| shagie wrote:
| The history is slightly different...
|
| Atom was an editor made by GitHub that competed with
| Sublime.
|
| After creating Atom, GitHub pulled the editor guts out of
| it and initially called it "Atom Shell".
| https://github.com/mapbox/atom-shell
|
| This then had a name change of Atom Shell to Electron to
| decouple Electron from Atom (the editor).
| https://www.electronjs.org/blog/electron
|
| Microsoft built several key tools on top of Electron
| (VSCode being the relevant one here) and became very
| interested in maintaining control of it... and so bought
| GitHub when it was up for sale.
|
| Eventually, Atom was sunsetted. https://github.blog/news-
| insights/product-news/sunsetting-at...
|
| > Atom has not had significant feature development for
| the past several years, though we've conducted
| maintenance and security updates during this period to
| ensure we're being good stewards of the project and
| product. As new cloud-based tools have emerged and
| evolved over the years, Atom community involvement has
| declined significantly. As a result, we've decided to
| sunset Atom so we can focus on enhancing the developer
| experience in the cloud with GitHub Codespaces.
|
| > This is a tough goodbye. It's worth reflecting that
| Atom has served as the foundation for the Electron
| framework, which paved the way for the creation of
| thousands of apps, including Microsoft Visual Studio
| Code, Slack, and our very own GitHub Desktop. However,
| reliability, security, and performance are core to
| GitHub, and in order to best serve the developer
| community, we are archiving Atom to prioritize
| technologies that enable the future of software
| development.
| TiredOfLife wrote:
| VS Code is built on the foundation of Monaco. And when
| you run it in a browser it has nothing common with Atom.
| And on desktop the only thing from Atom is the runtime
| Atom shell now called Electron and it is essentially
| Chrome with some glue for integrating with OS.
| make3 wrote:
| Cursor is still great though, and was a real step forward,
| despite what a lot of people here will say
| keepamovin wrote:
| Aw shit, I guess I should stop doing actual products and just
| go where the fad is. That's what the "smart money" does, I
| guess. I mean, isn't it smart to pursue maximal profit? Max
| payoff - you can use it to fund other things!!!
| ujkhsjkdhf234 wrote:
| You're being sarcastic but yes. If your intention is to take
| large sums of cash from investors and run off with a fat
| check then that is exactly what you should do.
| keepamovin wrote:
| No I'm actually not being sarcastic. I know it might sound
| like that - it's hard to grok tone from text and I'm not
| particularly concerned. But I'm seriously considering it, I
| mean -- the goal of most startups is to solve (as PG puts
| it) "the money problem". So what am I doing building
| products, when I could be chasing these fads and possibly
| banking huge? I mean, that's smart, right?
|
| I'm not being sarcastic at all. I feel I need to reiterate
| that because you got it wrong.
| nine_k wrote:
| If enough of the market participants act stupid, or at
| least in predictably irrational ways, it may be
| profitable to capitalize on that behavior.
|
| If you look at previous fads, all the way to be dotcom
| boom of late 1990s, this very approach seemed to work
| well for a number of buzzword-compliant pre-revenue
| "businesses", and their founders / owners. There was a
| crash after that, but the wisest were able to shield some
| of the money from it.
| ujkhsjkdhf234 wrote:
| Some people might say there is more to life than making
| money but if you just want to hopefully get some naive
| investors to give you a large pile of money for your
| vaporware then go for it, it's where the money is.
| homebrewer wrote:
| Integrate it over time and you'll get a different result:
| JetBrains will still be with us 20 years from now, while these
| "AI" startups will go the way of NFTs and blockchain long
| before that.
| hbn wrote:
| But their founders ran off with a fat paycheck so the system
| worked as intended
| asadm wrote:
| Life is like that, some are more blessed than others in
| some metric. You gotta make your own lemonade.
| riku_iki wrote:
| I (and many others) use LLM for coding tasks multiple times a
| day, its very unlikely they will go the way of NFTs.
| Eggpants wrote:
| Then your "code" is riddled with bugs. Coding by Statistics
| will only end in tears.
| riku_iki wrote:
| I didn't say I blindly trust generated code, it needs to
| be read through and covered by tests, but tasks like
| generate boilerplate code for some lib I never used
| before and which would take time to locate and read
| through documentation now are 10x faster.
|
| There is huge utility in LLM outside generating complete
| working code.
| asdsadasdasd123 wrote:
| This is just cope. We've rolled out cursor company wide
| with no noticeable uptick in bugs.
| lolinder wrote:
| Most "AI" startups aren't building coding tools, and the
| utility of this tech goes down dramatically in industries
| that are less legible on the open internet than software
| is.
| riku_iki wrote:
| > industries that are less legible on the open internet
|
| I think there will be also wave of private LLMs fine-
| tuned on corporate data, and it will be also good tools.
| nsonha wrote:
| They're a great company but geopolitics is working against
| them.
|
| Also AI should not be lumped together with literal fraud,
| that's lazy.
| bitwize wrote:
| It's not us lumping AI together with fraud. It's the
| companies employing, for example, Actually Indians to do
| things they claim are done by machine. Or the ones
| marketing ChatGPT with various agentic hookups as a
| replacement for developers. Or...
| devmor wrote:
| I believe that's why the comment author put "AI" in
| quotation marks. There's a massive amount of fraud around
| "AI" right now, as there always is in the startup scene
| with a hot new technology.
| nsonha wrote:
| there is still a distinction as the field itself is not a
| hoax, which I can't say the same about NFT.
|
| Unless you prefer to think of the AI field as
| representable by a bunch of Indians actually behind
| software, as the sibling (insincerely and again lazily)
| reduces it to.
| bitwize wrote:
| Where am I reducing an entire field to anything? If one
| truthfully says there's a bunch of companies doing this
| or that, that associate AI with fraud, that's not the
| same as reducing an entire field to fraud.
| immibis wrote:
| Engineers that want to run startups need to stop
| denouncing fields they don't like as "fraud". Some people
| made more money than you. Learn from them and it could be
| you next time.
| echelon wrote:
| > geopolitics is working against them.
|
| Do most people even know they're a Russian company? Do
| businesses decide not to invest for that reason?
| rsynnott wrote:
| They're _not_; the founders are Russian but it was
| founded in the Czech Republic and no longer has Russian
| operations or sells to Russia.
| momocowcow wrote:
| There are no native Czech speakers in their management.
| It's a similar story as the Yandex guys going off to
| Nebius Group in the Netherlands after the invasion.
| shuuzo wrote:
| Do you know how many founders in Silicon Valley are not
| native English speakers? What are you even talking about?
| mananaysiempre wrote:
| Nobody in Russia who valued their business chose to
| incorporate it--or at least its parent company--in
| Russia. After Yukos, the writing was on the wall. (And
| now, of course, everybody who values their business takes
| pains to point out their chosen country of incorporation
| as though it wasn't originally just a saner jurisdiction.
| As you've shown, everybody does it because it works.)
| JetBrains specifically did employ a fair number of both
| Russians and Ukrainians, though, and unlike Yandex or
| mobile carriers, was not prominent enough to be forced to
| split immediately after 2014, so it was inevitable they
| would have to move out of Russia (and they did so pretty
| gracefully).
| grues-dinner wrote:
| Presumably, if you wanted to stick the boot in on Russia,
| a decent way to do that is to encourage smart,
| economically productive Russians to incorporate outside
| Russia and attract as many young capable Russians to come
| with them as possible.
| bakugo wrote:
| The hundreds of AI startups desperately trying to convince
| management that they can replace entire teams of skilled
| humans with AI are, by definition, a scam. Maybe a
| different type of scam than crypto rugpullers, but still a
| scam.
| immibis wrote:
| In capitalism, a scam is when investors lose money
| because you broke a law. Which law is being broken here?
| grues-dinner wrote:
| No, that's fraud. A scam can be legal. Timeshares,
| "Winter Wonderlands", many extended warranties, planned
| obsolescence, weaselly technically-correct advertising
| (overpromising to investors is sort of this) pretty much
| everything hidden in ToC screeds, some MLM schemes etc
| etc.
|
| Many graduate into criminality, but it's not required.
| scialex wrote:
| They are hoping that those companies will become like synopsys
| and able to sell per seat subscriptions to their software for
| huge amounts.
|
| That or they just drank the Kool aid
| lvass wrote:
| This is the norm. The gaming industry glaringly works that way
| since it came into existence. There are a lot of privately
| owned companies creating awesome stuff that stay awesome
| until/if they decide to IPO or sellout to a public company.
| Public company owners mostly have terrible incentives and time
| preference which makes everything turn to shit.
| varispeed wrote:
| Are these IDEs really top tier though? I found them slow and
| laggy. Switching to even something like VS Code was night and
| day difference.
|
| I have PTSD from accidentally opening CLion or PyCharm. Fans
| starts spinning and there is dozens of seconds wait to close
| this thing down.
| not_kurt_godel wrote:
| As someone with decades of software engineering under my
| belt, my opinion is they are the best IDEs out there by a
| comfortable margin. It's possible the issue you're
| encountering when accidentally opening them is due to index
| updates which would occur disproportionately often on startup
| for people who otherwise never use them. Other than that,
| performance is more than satisfactory 90+% of the time in my
| experience.
| Maxatar wrote:
| That's just it. In my company there are basically three sets
| of developers. The very experienced ones prefer vim/emacs.
| The experienced ones tend to like these more established
| IDEs, and the younger developers absolutely hate these IDEs
| and find them to be slow and bloated.
|
| I can't really comment on whether they are good or not since
| from my perspective I see people who are productive and
| unproductive using both of these tools, so to me it just
| looks like mostly a matter of preference. But newer
| developers don't seem to like these established IDEs and see
| them as you said: big, slow and laggy.
| varispeed wrote:
| I work fast and I have ADD. If I have to wait for the tool
| to do something and it breaks my flow, I am out. It is
| simple as that.
|
| Some people like slow IDEs, because that gives them time to
| have a cuppa or browse Reddit when the "index is updating".
| I have no time for that.
| koakuma-chan wrote:
| Have you tried Fleet? It's a next generation IDE from
| JetBrains and some of it is written in Rust.
| NoahKAndrews wrote:
| It seems like JetBrains may be giving up on Fleet. Honestly
| though, I think their established IDEs are good enough to
| be worth a few bugs and performance issues.
| simion314 wrote:
| Intellij is an IDE where VS Code is a bit mroe then a text
| editor. When you open a project for the first time it takes
| time because it is indexed , maybe it will index your
| dependencies if you did not bother to disable that.
|
| IWhen i open a file /project from a collegue that uses VS
| Code is filled with errors and warnings because their VS code
| text editor is not actually understanding the code they are
| editing.
| symlinkk wrote:
| People that say this are completely out of touch. You know
| there are VSCode extensions for Java (made by Oracle and
| Redhat themselves), right? Once you install that you get
| Intellisense, debugging, etc. Same with C#, Python, etc.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| Can't speak for CLion, but for heavy python development,
| PyCharm is much better than anything else out there that I
| have tried.
| colechristensen wrote:
| Nobody is going to acquire JetBrains at a crazy premium to
| remove a competitor or to stay a competitor themselves.
| OpenAI/Microsoft/Google/Meta will.
|
| The valuations are based on trillionish dollar companies
| fighting over startups.
|
| Honestly it's a little odd JetBrains doesn't seem to be chasing
| this fad much at all.
| nwatson wrote:
| Jetbrains has "AI Assistant" and "Junie" (the latter is much
| like "Claude Code"). Junie is a great AI coding assistant,
| seems to be on par with Claude Code (and can use Anthropic
| models e.g. Claude Sonnet, or other models).
|
| Also, Claude Desktop can be configured to serve Jetbrains MCP
| Server, which will let Claude Desktop (or any other coding
| AI/LLM) connect and control Jetbrains IDEs, including
| changing project configuration, listing / finding files,
| editing files, looking at VCS diffs.
|
| So I believe Jetbrains is addressing the AI coding assistant
| market, they're not making as much noise and perhaps they
| should be ... feature-wise I think Jetbrains IDEs + AI
| integrations will be as good, in the long term, as other
| systems. At least I hope so, because I can't let go of
| PyCharm, Webstorm, IntelliJ IDEA, Goland, et al
| paxys wrote:
| > they're not making as much noise and perhaps they should
| be
|
| Jetbrains isn't a silicon valley startup and isn't raising
| money, so no VC is going to make a 10x return by hyping
| them. That sadly usually means that you are shut out from
| the conversation no matter how good your product is.
| disgruntledphd2 wrote:
| See further: Aider.
| skeeter2020 wrote:
| They are a big company that has taken a lot of investment
| over the years. They make good stuff and their audience
| (a lot of them developers) LOVE the product - willing to
| pay their own money for them. Rather than complain that
| they're shut out of the system we all apparently don't
| like, shouldn't we celebrate that they're making it with
| an alternative approach?
| Applejinx wrote:
| Good. I use their stuff or at least I'm starting to use
| it more, and I don't want them acquired and enshittified.
| renewiltord wrote:
| I've had a Jetbrains license for years. I barely use their
| stuff now. Cursor is much less capable IDE but better coding
| environment. At first I'd use them both on the same thing but
| now it's all Cursor.
| senordevnyc wrote:
| Exact same here. I love PHPStorm for Laravel dev, but I've
| barely used it in months. Meanwhile I'm paying $100+ per
| month to Cursor for subscription + premium model usage. And
| honestly I kinda hate Cursor as an editor / IDE. I really
| hope Junie is good enough to switch back, but I won't give
| up integrated AI agentic coding in my editor if it's not.
| trallnag wrote:
| Is it really better than VS Code with GitHub Copilot
| though? I kinda doubt it
| SJC_Hacker wrote:
| The thought is if AI turns out to be what its billed as, you
| won't need IDEs.
|
| It would be like investing in a horse-and-buggy whip
| manufacturers around the turn of the century.
| nine_k wrote:
| The fun thing is that JetBrains do have AI, and it's pretty
| good.
|
| They can't invest in AI the amounts that Microsoft can, of
| course.
| falleng0d wrote:
| You can use Copilot and a bunch of new Agents such as
| augment and firebender which are very good.
|
| In the worst case you'll still be able to use AI tooling
| similar or equal to what you have in VS code. Even Windsurf
| has an JetBrains plugin.
| jimbokun wrote:
| Well in that case you won't need tools like Cursor either.
|
| Just vibe code away and never look at the source it's
| generating.
| duped wrote:
| People love to crap on VC but it's a great transfer of wealth
| from the rich that have so much money they can give it to other
| people to gamble for them by paying people to drop out of
| school to build things that will never make a return on
| investment. \s
| disgruntledphd2 wrote:
| From pension funds and insurance companies, you mean?
| tomjen3 wrote:
| I have stopped using Jetbrains to switch to Windsurf. Their
| "mere wrapper" is that good.
| regularjack wrote:
| JetBrains AI now does essentially the same thing as Windsurf
| and Cursor. My prediction: JeBrains IDEs will be around in 5
| years, Windsurf and Cursor won't.
| tomjen3 wrote:
| True, in the sense that VIM and Emacs both edit files.
| senordevnyc wrote:
| I hope you mean Junie, because their old AI assistant is
| shit. And Junie isn't available for all the JetBrains IDEs
| yet.
|
| But overall I hope you're right, I really want great
| agentic coding in PHPStorm.
| emsign wrote:
| That's called dumb money, because greed lowers the IQ.
| dismalaf wrote:
| It's the difference between bootstrapped companies and VC
| backed or public ones. Bootstrapped companies don't have any
| growth expectations whereas the funded ones do and are priced
| based entirely on speculation.
| csallen wrote:
| Some relevant and timeless facts:
|
| - Generating revenue from customers is about more than just
| creating a great product. You also have to reach lots of
| customers and convince them of your value. Many naive idealists
| think only product matters (or _should_ matter), and neglect
| distribution. But most people eventually come to understand
| that both are necessary, and that this is practically a law of
| physics, not something to moralize about. (FWIW JetBrains is
| quite good generating revenue, and I 'm fairly certain their
| revenue dwarfs that of Cursor and Windsurf.)
|
| - Whoever is paying you is your customer, no matter what
| alternative word we use for it. If you're an employee, your
| customer is your "employer." If you're being acquired, your
| customer is your "acquirer."
|
| - In most cases, acquirers are playing the role of investor.
| Investors value returns. If you want to provide value for an
| acquirer, then, you need to convince them of the future value
| of your business should it be acquired. That's usually best
| done through growth trajectories.
|
| - It's perfectly valid to continue generating revenue year
| after year without being acquired for eye-watering sums. It's a
| waste of your emotional energy to become jealous or indignant
| when others get acquired or succeed with less work. Good for
| them, just keep doing you. That also goes for the rest of us in
| the peanut gallery. We don't need to attack recent successes to
| defend the honor of our favorite incumbents.
| echelon wrote:
| This should be nailed to the wall.
|
| Almost everyone here is providing business value in service
| of these rules of the universe. Those who aren't in cost
| centers probably need to reflect on this reality more.
| gizmo686 wrote:
| When analyzing the value of a young, pre revenue company, one
| of the things you want to look it is how established
| comparable companies are valued. For AI coding assistants,
| the field is too young to do that directly. However, they are
| competing in the space of "developer productivity tool for
| writing code". That space is an established market that is
| currently dominated by IDEs.
|
| Seeing young companies which are pre-revenue, which are
| competing for an unproven yet crowded sub market (AI coding
| assistant) out value an established incumbent in the larger
| space does not compute.
|
| Add to this the fact that there is very little moat for AI
| coding assistants. Assuming the market as a whole proves
| itself, there is a very good chance that the winners will be
| the established incumbent IDEs who can add AI assistance as a
| feature in their established products.
|
| All of that is to say, current AI valuations in this space
| look a lot like a bubble.
| sgc wrote:
| Reading a bit between the lines, it seems like the buyers
| either 1) think that ai assisted coding will get good
| enough that a lot more people will be doing it - that in
| the future companies in other fields will spend on it for
| their employees much the way they are paying for general ai
| assistants now. Or 2) more likely, they think they will get
| good enough to completely replace programmers, and the
| current coding assistant's role is mainly to gather
| information from developers to eventually replace them
| completely, by selling a spinoff product at a much higher
| price. They think they need spyware, and coding assistants
| are the best version available.
| csallen wrote:
| This analysis framework you're providing would've missed
| YouTube (pre-revenue; no incumbent successes; crowded with
| competitors like Google Video, Metacafe, Vimeo, etc). It
| would've missed Instagram (pre-revenue; no massive photo-
| focused incumbents; tons of competing photo sharing apps in
| the App Store at the time; no moat against a big social app
| adding filters). It probably. would've missed WhatsApp. And
| many others.
|
| Which suggests that your framework is lacking.
|
| Here's where:
|
| 1. You're neglecting to look at the _differences_ between
| the fast-rising stars and the comparable incumbents, and
| instead you 're assuming that the incumbents automatically
| represent a ceiling. In this particular case, JetBrains
| obviously isn't the most ambitious company on the planet,
| and isn't focused on hyper growth. There are plenty of
| avenues for AI IDEs to grow and expand their revenue that
| have yet to be explored.
|
| 2. You're overestimating the importance of concrete moats.
| Google had no concrete moat either. Just because people can
| switch easily doesn't mean they necessarily will.
|
| 3. These companies aren't pre-revenue. I believe JetBrains
| is making something like $400-$500 million dollars a year,
| after 25 years. Cursor is at half of that in just 2 years.
| Windsurf is also doing big numbers.
|
| 4. Related to #3, you're underestimating growth
| trajectories.
|
| 5. You're leaving out the context. Companies that can
| afford to make $3B acquisitions (a) have tremendous war
| chests, and (b) have extremely ambitious goals. They're not
| looking to build the next JetBrains, they're looking to
| join the pantheon of $1T companies. Achieving massive 10x
| or 100x or 1000x growth as an investor/owner requires
| making asymmetrical bets -- bets where if you lose you're
| still okay, but if you win, you win big.
| immibis wrote:
| It's not a waste of emotional energy to consider how to
| convert a company from the $5-billion slow and steady type to
| the $10-billion instant acquisition type. Indeed the premise
| of our economic system is that maximum value is created when
| people continually strive to maximize the values of their
| companies.
| pacetherace wrote:
| That's pretty much the comparison between Tesla and old-time
| car manufacturers. Most people who are trading Tesla stock
| don't even look at other car stocks.
| giancarlostoro wrote:
| What kills me more is originally when they released Kotlin, and
| I saw Kotlin Native, I assumed they would go all in on Kotlin
| Native, and allow you to produce fully native JRE based apps
| (JRE based in the sense that it can take full advantage of
| those libraries the JRE provides, or any plain old Java Object)
| and produce native and highly performant binaries.
|
| It seems .NET already has a really mature AOT, I'm really
| hoping .NETs AOT reaches the point where all .NET code can be
| AOT'd someday.
|
| I feel like Kotlin could do so much more, but its stuck in
| standstill. There's even some language features that are still
| missing such as Inline Classes, Pattern Matching, and even
| Reflection, all things that Java supports directly.
| ternaryoperator wrote:
| Programming languages are high-cost, low-revenue beasts. When
| Kotlin was first released, JB was hoping it would replace
| Java in the enterprise. And as the sole providers of Kotlin
| tools, they'd have a greatly expanded market.
|
| Kotlin did not replace Java, except on Android. So JB now has
| a beast they have to feed without an enterprise revenue
| stream. They do get secondary benefits: they use it
| internally, etc.
|
| We examined Kotlin in detail for a CLI app and based on
| conversations with Kotlin developers concluded that it was
| not sufficient of a Java replacement for us to evaluate
| further. For those in a similar situation, the greatly
| increased cadence of Java releases has probably permanently
| foreclosed Kotlin-qua-enterprise language.
| raincole wrote:
| The irony is that there are a lot of "XYZ Native" solution,
| such as Flutter, Kotlin Multiplatform, Xaramin, etc. But
| somehow only React Native, something based on a web
| framework, seems to reach the critical mass.
| neonsunset wrote:
| There are fundamental restrictions where NativeAOT will never
| work or be desirable. For example, runtime-compiled regex
| patterns or any other feature which relies on emitting IL at
| runtime and creating new members or even assembles and then
| loading them. Similar applies to compiled expression trees -
| they are supported in NativeAOT but in the form of falling
| back onto interpreting them, which has worse performance. Or
| unbound reflection with patterns that cannot be statically
| proven and/or analyzed.
|
| Reflection analysis can (and will) be improved but there are
| hard constraints - a correctly working expression like
| 'someAssembly.GetType(Console.ReadLine())' by definition
| would have to root (and force compilation for) every type in
| the assembly, which is highly undesirable or even sometimes
| unfeasible for AOT compilation. And there is a lot of code
| which does exactly this.
|
| The main challenge are packages and frameworks. ASP.NET Core
| is largely compatible (via minimal API) and so is AvaloniaUI,
| EF Core has _some_ compatibility assurances and DapperAOT is
| tailor-made as the name implies, serialization is also a
| solved problem although you may need to use a different API.
|
| At the end of the day, NativeAOT is not something "to be
| fully migrated to" because it has fundamental restrictions
| (some of which also affect other languages like Rust or Go)
| and having JIT around is a feature for patterns which
| specifically exploit it but is also a performance
| optimization (DynamicPGO, better instruction selection
| especially around SIMD paths, turning static readonly's into
| JIT constants and apply subsequent optimizations on top of
| that, this is what makes C# port of Mimalloc so good as it
| elides dead code with assertions impossible to remove
| dynamically in C/C++). NativeAOT has its own optimizations,
| and it will continue to diverge with JIT (e.g. there's a
| toggle in .NET compiler to repeat some optimization phases,
| usually it's too expensive for JIT but for AOT it's a good
| fit, AFAIK there is work to productize this).
|
| The wide perception that JIT-compiled code has to be slower
| stems from _other_ sources of performance overhead that are
| typical to languages which happen to use JIT (many of which
| have "weaker" compilers too), not from the JIT compilation
| itself. There _are_ technicalities like certain calls have to
| be indirect in order to support patching the callee address,
| or inter-procedural analysis which is trivial to prove under
| AOT may not be so under JIT where new callers /callees may be
| constructed dynamically or a reJIT invoked which would
| invalidate the analysis results. JIT also costs additional
| memory. But it's not a source of worse performance.
| Aurornis wrote:
| The wildest part is that JetBrains has their own AI coding
| tools and they seem to be very good.
|
| They also have a pre-built customer base to sell them to.
|
| I do think they have a perception issue with devs whose
| perspective on their products was crystallized back in the
| 2010s when they were using some old company laptop with 8GB of
| RAM when they could feel too heavy. With a modern laptop I just
| don't care at all if my IDE takes up a few gigs of RAM.
|
| JetBrains also ranks well on things like low-latency input,
| which surprises a lot of people. They do seem to care about
| developer experience.
| 0x1ceb00da wrote:
| They have such a nice product! But every release comes with
| almost the same number of bugfixes and new bugs. I wish it
| was a more stable product and they were more cautious about
| adding new features. Every new feature comes with the risk of
| adding more bugs.
| luckylion wrote:
| I feel that. I have very mixed feelings about updates of
| products, and Jetbrains is no exception. It's a mix of
| "maybe this and that has been improved" and "they probably
| added a bunch of things I really don't want and have to
| fight for a day to get rid of".
|
| Granted, they're not the worst offenders. When I read that
| Jira has been updated, I need to work up the courage to
| look at it because I expect it to just be worse on every
| level.
| bandoti wrote:
| Honestly this is why I use emacs. Editors like VS Code
| even, while have some conveniences built in, update every
| five minutes it seems.
|
| My workflow is somewhat Byzantine--mostly just use shells
| and basic tools like find and grep do most of what IDEs do
| (sure somewhat worse).
|
| That and I copy and and paste from my favorite AI chat and
| that's it. Paste a code block, or an entire file for
| context.
|
| Like taking notes with a pencil and paper--which helps
| information uptake--I believe it's actually important to
| slow down and take a moment to think.
| simion314 wrote:
| You have the option to not update in place. Download the
| new version and keep the old one too, then test the new
| version, if they broke your workflow go back to the old
| version until the bugs are fixed.
| killerstorm wrote:
| I've been using IntelliJ IDEA and similar products for almost
| 10 years, and I'm not impressed.
|
| Java/Kotlin is their main thing, and yet neither Maven nor
| Gradle builds are stable. If your build fails or there are
| some unresolved dependencies, you restart IDE in hope it
| works...
|
| AI coding tool trial failed for me -- IDE told me it's not
| activated even after I activated it on billing portal. And
| doc implied it might take some time. WTF. Does it take some
| batch processing?..
|
| People who were able to get AI coding tools working said it's
| way behind Cursor (although improving, apparently).
| foepys wrote:
| Counterpoint from me: I've been using Jetbrains tools for
| over 10 years as well. Mostly Webstorm and Rider and it's
| all working well. Sometimes there are bugs, yes, but I had
| plenty those in VSCode and Visual Studio as well.
|
| Aside from their initial AI plugin rollout fiasco it has
| been smooth sailing for me.
| serial_dev wrote:
| I am using their free product, IntelliJ CE (community
| edition). I simply couldn't get used to VS code and its AI
| derivatives.
|
| Possibly an interesting data point is that my company pays
| for every engineers' Cursor usage, can't imagine how much it
| could cost, but they don't have any encouraged integration
| with JetBrains... so while JetBrains products are good, I'm
| wondering if Cursor simply has a better sales team and hype
| pushing them to higher valuations
| spullara wrote:
| Augment has a great extension for jetbrains products. Much
| better than their AI tools (and better than cursor for
| large code bases).
| raincole wrote:
| > The wildest part is that JetBrains has their own AI coding
| tools and they seem to be very good.
|
| Which one?
|
| Last time I checked JetBrains' AI tool and it was laughably
| bad compared to Copilot. My bar was quite low already as I
| hadn't even used Cursor by the time.
|
| Edit: What I tried is "JetBrains AI Assistant". I haven't
| tried Junie yet.
| betterThanTexas wrote:
| Seems to work fine for me, I haven't noticed it getting in
| my way any more than any other assistant.
| hiccuphippo wrote:
| Funny, what sold me on AI was watching Andreas Kling work
| on SerenityOS/LadyBird using CLion and it giving some
| impressive suggestions.
| vel0city wrote:
| "If you show revenue, people will ask how much and it will
| never be enough. The company that was the 100x or 1000xer
| becomes the 2x dog. But if you have no revenue, you can say
| you're pre-revenue; you're a potential pure play. It's not
| about how much you earn, it's about how much you're worth. And
| who's worth the most? Companies that lose money."
|
| - Russ Hanneman
| adeptima wrote:
| this guy .....
| melenaboija wrote:
| Well, all this is only a small fraction of the two trillions
| Nvidia has gained in valuation since 2022.
| karolist wrote:
| I gave them a year of subscriptions before cancelling recently,
| the devcontainer implementation in their Ultimate versions is
| laughably bad, bugs upon bugs and tickets where their support
| staff just bounces it up with "still no fix" messages and
| customers are finding workarounds, i.e. downgrading docker
| installs.
|
| Remote SSH is terrible too, handles network latency spikes by
| repeating keystrokes. I remember spending an evening trying to
| fix something in the integrated shell and giving up, but sadly
| forgot what. I like what they do with Go though. Anyway, back
| to nvim here, not for me.
| symlinkk wrote:
| +1, the Remote SSH is horrible. Takes forever to connect and
| is extremely laggy once you have connected. Feels like
| they're practically streaming video of the UI back to you
| instead of VSCode's Remote SSH which feels indistinguishable
| from running locally.
| insane_dreamer wrote:
| Not to mention that JetBrains is implementing AI agents into
| their current products -- if I'm already a user of IntelliJ,
| PyCharm or CLion, etc., why would I switch to Cursor or
| Windsurf?
| deafpolygon wrote:
| When it's free, _you_ are the product:
|
| "It's important to note that, if you're using a non-commercial
| license, you cannot opt out of the collection of anonymous usage
| statistics. We use this information to improve our products. The
| data we collect is exclusively that of anonymous feature usages
| of our IDEs."
|
| I'm aware it's common practice, but it's always good to read the
| fine print.
| sofixa wrote:
| Do you think JetBrains are making money of usage statistics of
| their IDE?
|
| It's much more likely they use those stats to know which parts
| and features of their products are used, and therefore which
| need improvements/love/prominence.
| deafpolygon wrote:
| I have no idea what they're doing - only that now, the
| product contains telemetry and if I want to use the free
| product, I cannot opt-out. I don't consent to being tracked.
| globalnode wrote:
| If its free, you're the product.
| not_kurt_godel wrote:
| Yes, they want you to eventually convert to a paying customer
| by using their software to make yourself money. How nefarious!
| (/s)
| iainctduncan wrote:
| Worth mentioning too that they have free student plans for all
| their IDEs for university students.
| travisgriggs wrote:
| Pycharm is my goto for Python; I happily use AndroidStudio when
| working on our Android apps.
|
| In the past when I tried CLion, I found that its need/desire to
| use cmake prohibited me from really using it. We have our own
| build scripts, and it seemed to struggle with that. Anyone know
| if that CMake bias still exists?
|
| I ended up using Nova on my Mac for C code and have been pretty
| happy with that.
|
| I would really really really love it if there was an Elixir skin
| for Jetbrains tools.
| chuckadams wrote:
| clion still needs a cmakelists.txt that's good enough to index
| the project, but it doesn't have to produce a usable artifact
| -- you can still build with make or whatever else you want.
| Probably cold comfort if you use a lot of third-party
| libraries, but otherwise it's a fairly set-and-forget kind of
| thing.
| ferguess_k wrote:
| Just curious, for low level mid-size projects ON LINUX, like a
| simple OS or a compiler, is Clion over-complicated or suitable?
| And how does the debugging look like?
|
| I'm using VSCode with a manually written Makefile, and all of my
| debugging lives in gdb tui mode in a separate terminal. I do
| prefer a better UI though, but right now it's fine.
|
| One concern is that Jetbriain IDEs usually takes a lot of memory.
| I do have a 16GB laptop though, so should be fine.
| 90s_dev wrote:
| JetBrains IDEs always had difficult and unintuitive default
| keyboard shortcuts. I think it's just because of its age (same is
| true with Visual Studio). Whereas VS Code's out of the box
| shortcuts were relatively great. If JetBrains IDEs shipped with
| VSCode-style shortcuts as an option (not necessarily default)
| that I could switch to without having to manually remap
| everything, I'd be so glad to use them.
| grondo4 wrote:
| They do? Or at least the Jetbrains IDE I use the most
| (IntelliJ) will ask you the first time you start it up if you
| want to use VS code keybinds
| 90s_dev wrote:
| Wow you're right. To be fair it was about 9-10 years since I
| last tried it, so either it didn't have that back then, or I
| forgot that it did.
| leovander wrote:
| They do have those options out of the box. I immediately switch
| them over to the VSCode bindings when on a new work machine.
|
| https://www.jetbrains.com/help/idea/configuring-keyboard-and...
| nsonha wrote:
| they have a VS keybinding option out of the box, but the
| VSCode one is also available on the Marketplace
| xp84 wrote:
| They do. There are a ton of keybinding sets to choose from
| right there in the options. Heck, when i first started, I chose
| Textmate bindings!
| OrvalWintermute wrote:
| I've been a quite happy Jetbrains All Products Pack subscriber
| for several years now.
| perrygeo wrote:
| As good as LSP and other tooling has gotten recently, there are
| some C++ projects that just need a proprietary IDE for proper
| code navigation and completion. A lot of times my choice is a)
| spend 3 hours debugging why neovim's LSP is putting squiggly
| lines everywhere or b) just fire up CLion.
| gh0stcat wrote:
| This is cool, I briefly looked at using this to work on an unreal
| project, does anyone have any experience with using CLion with
| unreal? Is Rider or VScode still ideal?
| chpatrick wrote:
| I used to use CLion but switched to VS Code with the clangd
| extension. It's by far the best and snappiest C++ coding
| experience I've had.
| mcflubbins wrote:
| Great, but how about letting me have my paid, licensed Rust rover
| open on two PCs simultaneously?
|
| I have my work PC which I leave on pretty much 24/7 and if I
| forget to close RustRover, and try to launch it on my desktop
| (for personal project, or to just work from another room) I get
| an error that I already have a licensed copy running and it
| closes RustRover. Sometimes I wake my Laptop from sleep and it
| does this because I still had an old window open. Really
| unnecessary...
| seatac76 wrote:
| I just bought the annual license for all IDEs did not know this
| was a restriction that's a bummer. Surely they can do some
| pattern analysis to determine which systems belong to a single
| license.
| Aurornis wrote:
| It's not a restriction for personal licenses.
|
| EDIT: Or if you a corporate license and have the same OS
| username on both computers.
| seatac76 wrote:
| Ahh I see. Thanks
| Jtsummers wrote:
| https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/en-
| gb/articles/206544319-Can-...
|
| https://intellij-support.jetbrains.com/hc/en-
| us/articles/207...
|
| For personal licenses it's a non-issue. For commercial, use
| the same username on both computers. If you have floating
| licenses, you need multiple licenses.
| Aurornis wrote:
| You just have a corporate license: https://intellij-
| support.jetbrains.com/hc/en-us/articles/207...
|
| And you have different operating system usernames on both
| computers. It says if you have the same OS username on both
| you'll be fine.
|
| This works fine on my personal license with different
| usernames.
| hiatus wrote:
| Can anyone comment how this compares to Dev-C++?
| demarq wrote:
| This is a good move, more people will unwittingly be running a
| trial of the product.
|
| I suspect there's a whole lot of devs who've never experienced
| paid IDEs vs VsCode. Plus the community is about to grow insane.
|
| Interested to see what happens
| the__alchemist wrote:
| These are so interesting. From my perspective using PyCharm and
| RustRover: By far the best code editors, in terms of
| introspection and refactoring. The only ones I've used that model
| my _projects_ correctly; VsCode and Sublime etc make it feel like
| I 'm editing _files_ , where are IMO the wrong abstraction.
|
| I experience major performance problems. They periodically bring
| my 9950 CPU to a crawl, or freeze, requiring a force-kill.
| (RustRover more so than PyCharm, but both are guilty). Memory
| hogs. (Feels like they leak memory). This is consistent behavior
| over the years, across a range of project styles.
|
| I put up with the performance problems because of my first point!
|
| The interesting/amusing part to me: My experiences do not seem
| wholly consistent with other users: Many users seem to find these
| IDEs heavy, but don't experience the freezes, crashes, or memory
| leaks. And many (most?) people claim VsCode is fine for managing
| multi-file projects. I don't know what to think!
| winrid wrote:
| That's insane, I use webstorm, pycharm, and Intellij, sometimes
| all at the same time, on a mobile 8th gen i7, it doesn't lock
| up. The single thread passmark score is literally half your
| cpu! :D
| winrid wrote:
| Although I guess none of those projects are more than 150k
| loc.
| ackfoobar wrote:
| > ... RustRover: By far the best code editors ...
|
| I'm using RustRover. It's pretty lame compared to the IntelliJ
| experience. "Find usages" does not separate test code and
| application code; "copy reference" gets me the file name and
| line number instead of the fully qualified name.
|
| I'd probably use vscode/cursor fully if I weren't so used to
| the JetBrains environment.
| trallnag wrote:
| Are you experiencing these problems on your personal device or
| is it a corporate provided one full of scanners? IntelliJ is
| definitely slower on my work laptop compared to my private
| desktop. Might also be due to the larger project size and heavy
| usage of Spring, though
| the__alchemist wrote:
| Various personal devices over time.
| sensanaty wrote:
| I have my work project loaded on my home PC, and to be fair
| it's a beast of a PC, but still it's _insane_ how much power
| is wasted on the work macbook from the stupid MDM software
| running on it. It feels _blazing_ fast on my PC, and the
| slowness is unbearable sometimes on the work laptop.
| andrewstuart wrote:
| I really wish JetBrains released its terminal as a standalone
| product. It's one of the best.
| giancarlostoro wrote:
| One thing I wish JetBrains would explore is building a fully
| native NON-JRE text editor that is a direct competitor to Sublime
| Text, but has a rich plugin API. I would love to see their take
| on a Sublime like editor. Atom and VS Code were the only serious
| Sublime Text competitors for a while, but now VS Code has gotten
| insanely bloated over the years, and also Atom is defunct
| unfortunately.
|
| I would love to see them build a fully native editor with their
| decades of knowledge.
| hiccuphippo wrote:
| They have Fleet which was supposed to be a competitor to
| VSCode. AFAIK it's written in Kotlin so still JRE (unless they
| are able to compile it to native?).
|
| Maybe Zed would be more interesting for you.
| taylorallred wrote:
| I love jetbrains IDE for all sorts of features (their git tools
| like diff checker are unmatched imo). I've been wanting to use
| them for C++ for a while now specifically because I find that
| many LSP solutions are not that great. Looking forward to using
| the non-commercial version of clion!
| Artoooooor wrote:
| Wow! Thank you for sharing, I would miss this otherwise.
| geophile wrote:
| This is a love letter to JetBrains.
|
| I started using Intellij with the 3.0 version, I think. It just
| worked, even on Linux. (It was existence proof that you could
| build excellent UIs in Java.) Unlike Eclipse, and other forgotten
| IDEs that were so bad I discarded them immediately. Even early
| on, their refactorings were usually flawless. While I think I
| found one screwup, they were so good that they changed the way I
| coded. I could easily and reliably do refactorings that were
| otherwise pretty time-consuming and error-prone. I have continued
| using their products: mostly PyCharm now, and occasionally CLion.
|
| Each new release improves the UI, and occasionally adds features
| that I find useful, and many that I don't. I suspect that I'm not
| alone in using a very tiny portion of the features they offer.
| How they can keep up with all the languages, and libraries, and
| frameworks is beyond me, but they seem to do it.
|
| Their support has always been excellent. I once (v4?) complained
| that refactorings did not extend into configurations. E.g., if I
| rename a class Foo to Bar, then the runtime configuration running
| Foo didn't reflect the change. I reported it, and found a fix in
| the next release. Email with technical questions or bug reports
| is always handled promptly and thoughtfully.
|
| They have always provided absolutely fantastic products for free.
| Yes, you gave up some features, but the free versions are really
| useful. I'm retired now, but continue to pay their licensing fees
| every year, for my hobby usage, because it's worth it, and they
| earn it. And the licensing is not onerous to use. What I really
| like is that you don't have to be on the internet to use their
| products, just for the license check. I wish all licensed
| products did that.
|
| And beyond all this: _They haven 't sold out._ They are one of
| the very, very few for-profit tech companies that have maintained
| a stellar level of product breadth, depth, quality, and support
| for such a long period of time. I'm sure they could have cashed
| in, sold to IBM and the product would have just rotted away,
| (sorry, IBM, but you know it's true). I can only think of one
| product that is comparable in this way, and that's Postgres.
|
| Thank you, JetBrains, you have Figured It Out.
| Xss3 wrote:
| Just bought it last week. Oops.
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