[HN Gopher] Why does Switzerland have so many bunkers?
___________________________________________________________________
Why does Switzerland have so many bunkers?
Author : pseudolus
Score : 148 points
Date : 2025-05-04 01:05 UTC (2 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.thedial.world)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.thedial.world)
| NaOH wrote:
| Related:
|
| _Camouflaged Military Bunkers of Switzerland (2015)_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25331474 - Dec 2020 (119
| comments)
|
| _The forgotten underground world of Swiss bunkers_ -
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12430234 - Sept 2016 (50
| comments)
| intellectronica wrote:
| And why does it have so many bankers?
| ithkuil wrote:
| Swiss bankers live within a levenshtein distance of 1 from a
| bunker
| iamflimflam1 wrote:
| Underrated comment.
| throwanem wrote:
| Only Swiss bunkers, though.
| yard2010 wrote:
| That's bonkers.
| durkie wrote:
| This is mentioned in the John McPhee book referenced elsewhere
| in the thread, because there is actually an answer: when the
| cantons stopped fighting and Switzerland/Helvetica
| Confederation was formed, the Swiss finance/banking system
| developed to handle all the money being brought in by those
| folks acting as mercenaries and being paid to fight other
| people's wars.
| jeffrallen wrote:
| Germany, Austria, Italy and France: With friends like these who
| needs enemies? :)
| aredox wrote:
| And yet it is the Swiss who waged wars in all these countries -
| as mercenaries.
|
| The last two wars between the Swiss and their neighbours were
| in 1531 and during Napoleon - who in the end admired the Swiss
| confederacy and helped rebirth it in its modern form.
| lazide wrote:
| Being the source of mercenaries is literally the opposite of
| waging war as the country.
|
| That they weren't waging war does result in excess men who
| someone else can pay to wage war for them though.
| euroderf wrote:
| Young men with nothing to do, no gainful employment, are
| the curse of many a nation. Civil unrest.
|
| Mercenaries outsource the problem.
| aredox wrote:
| >Being the source of mercenaries is literally the opposite
| of waging war as the country.
|
| Patently wrong: Swiss Neutrality explicitely bans mercenary
| work by any Swiss citizen.
| lazide wrote:
| Maybe in the modern era, specifically since 1848, but
| [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_mercenaries].
|
| "The young men who went off to fight, and sometimes die,
| in foreign service had several incentives--limited
| economic options in the still largely rural cantons;
| adventure; pride in the reputation of the Swiss as
| soldiers; and finally what military historian Sir Charles
| Oman describes as a pure love of combat and warfighting
| in and of itself, forged by two centuries of conflict."
|
| Either way, being a mercenary is explicitly the opposite
| of 'fighting for your country', which is the point I was
| making.
| Telemakhos wrote:
| It does now, but Swiss mercenaries were a target of
| Thomas More's satire in Utopia.
| amanaplanacanal wrote:
| Doesn't the Vatican still have a Swiss guard? I wonder
| how that works
| palata wrote:
| There is an exception for them.
| palata wrote:
| > Patently wrong
|
| No, but you just haven't understood that they were
| talking about the past :-).
| emmelaich wrote:
| Interesting, considering the Vatican Swiss Guard.
|
| > _The Swiss Guard is considered an elite military unit
| and highly selective in its recruitment: candidates must
| be unmarried Swiss Catholic males between 19 and 30 years
| of age,..._
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Guard
| PicassoCTs wrote:
| Thats the fate of all mountainous countries with population
| surplus? They used to send children to work abroad in
| medieval times. They often were used as cannonfood armies and
| mercenaries. Same thing in Afghanistan. Should have
| introduced the canton system to the taliban. Much more
| reasonable model for that area.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swabian_children
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| Mercenaries were very common at the time and Switzerland
| shares the languages of its neighbours, which probably makes
| it even easier to seek "employment".
| panick21_ wrote:
| Switzerland waged wars with all of these 'countries', before
| the were primary mercenaries.
| aivisol wrote:
| That is how you ensure your neutrality.
| alexey-salmin wrote:
| Not directly related, but I don't that model works anymore.
| Switzerland is landlocked and surrounded by the European
| Union that unlike the independent neighbors of the past
| applies pressure coherently. Over the years Switzerland seems
| more and more aligned with both EU and US and I don't think
| they have much of a choice.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| They have a choice to a point but today, isolating is
| regressing; there's a lot of money to be made if you have
| healthy relationships with your neighbours.
| roenxi wrote:
| That logic applied in WWII when Switzerland was surrounded
| by Axis powers and they nonetheless got excellent outcomes
| by officially remaining neutral. The model will probably
| keep working until someone invades them.
| input_sh wrote:
| Austria is also militarily neutral. Not a part of NATO and >60%
| of Austrians were always against joining NATO.
| senderista wrote:
| Surely this is related to their (brief) Soviet occupation? I
| always thought it was a miracle that they didn't end up
| behind the Iron Curtain.
| input_sh wrote:
| Soviet union definitely condititioned them to sign the
| neutrality initially, but like I said, every single opinion
| poll going back 70 years was always decisively in favour of
| keeping the neutrality.
|
| They also could've joined the EU somewhat earlier, but have
| refused to do so until the EU changed its rules about NATO
| membership. Up until 1995, every EU member was also a NATO
| member.
| fasouto wrote:
| This is a bit random, but when I was an intern at CERN I spent a
| summer living in an old civil defense bunker near Geneva.
|
| Short-term accommodation was notoriously expensive for students
| back then (probably even worse now), and I didn't hesitate when
| they offered me this unconventional housing opportunity.
|
| The bunker had a decontamination zone, air filtering system,
| massive concrete doors, a large communal kitchen, and numerous
| small bunk beds. It was adequate for short-term use, but we
| encountered two main issues:
|
| - It's remarkably easy to lose track of time without natural
| light cues
|
| - Even with the air filering system wet clothes wouldn't dry
| properly inside
| bschne wrote:
| I'm in civil protection service in Switzerland and occasionally
| spend a few days at a time in one of these doing basically
| office work or running refresher courses etc., definitely agree
| on the losing track of time thing --- can't count the number of
| times I've come up at 4--5pm and been extremely surprised by
| how light or dark, sunny or rainy it was
| amelius wrote:
| Of course there's a technical solution:
|
| https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43497394
| smolder wrote:
| Everyone seems to go for LEDs to simulate outdoor lighting
| for this kind of purpose, when there is another way that
| seems much more elegant to me: fiber-optic solar lighting.
|
| https://www.shieldenchannel.com/blogs/solar-panels/fiber-
| opt...
| amelius wrote:
| Indeed more elegant, but also more pricey. The LED
| solution was $1000, which could still be affordable for a
| student living in a bunker. It's also easier to install,
| especially if you don't own the place and cannot run
| thick fiber bundles through the walls.
| spiderfarmer wrote:
| I'd prefer not relying on electricity
| andsoitis wrote:
| Presumably you also need a system to produce light
| indoors at night. You might as well have a single
| solution for both day- and night-time that uses renewable
| energy.
| gpderetta wrote:
| This is a _nuclear_ bunker. Electricity might not be
| available or scarce.
| inetknght wrote:
| By the time external electricity is not available
| (assuming it was ever brought in, in the first place),
| you probably _want_ to lose track of time.
| gpderetta wrote:
| Oh yes, also natural light itself might be scarce.
| amelius wrote:
| Sounds to me it is closer to a student housing project
| that happens to be in a bunker.
| iancmceachern wrote:
| I bet the air filtration system runs on electricity, they
| probably have a backup generator that lasts X number of
| days. After that you won't have clean air so light won't
| be an issue either.
| m4rtink wrote:
| The bigger cold war era civil defense bunkers around here
| (Czech Republic) usually have the following design for
| ventilation: * one or two filtration rooms, powered by
| electricity with optional manual backup * one or two
| diesel generators to provide electricity for the
| filtration system, lighting and other equipment * high
| pressure oxygen bottles for couple hours of total
| isolation - intended for the first few hours after a
| nuclear detonation when the regular filtration equpment
| could be overwhelmed by short halflife fallout and
| smoke/lack of oxygen due to the firestorm of the city
| arround burning
|
| Examples of such shelters: - general purpose shleter
| Denis (capacity op to 2000 people):
| https://podzemibrno.cz/en/places-underground/cover-denis-
| und... - army headquarters shelter in the Vypustek cave
| (capacity 100+ people): https://vypustek.caves.cz/en -
| 10-Z shelter, Brno area civil defense headquarters
| (capacity 100+ people): https://10-z.cz/en/
|
| Smaller shelters that could be found under many 50s era
| building were much more rudimentary, usually without
| idepedent source of electricity and just simple hand
| cranked filtration system.
| rsynnott wrote:
| You almost certainly need it for ventilation and probably
| water pumps anyway.
| noitpmeder wrote:
| Any bunker worth its salt will have on-prem generators
| and a lllaaarrrrgggeee fuel supply.
| smolder wrote:
| Yeah, it's something best planned with construction, and
| a bit pricey, but worth keeping in mind for anyone who
| intends to build a bunker. :)
|
| Also not bad for high efficiency net zero type homes to
| supplement natural light without too many windows
| compromising the thermal envelope. I personally like the
| variability of natural light for how it keeps you
| connected to the outdoors. You know when a cloud is
| overhead or the sun is rising or setting. I've simulated
| sunset and sunrise with LEDs through color temp and
| timing but I've always wanted to experience the solar
| fiber type.
| pjmlp wrote:
| It was already a pain in 2003 and the whole process looks like
| hunting for a job with interview process and everything.
|
| For us it was a schock, versus the usual "you can pay it is
| yours", first come first served that we had back in Portugal.
|
| However while not living in a bunker, we did have parties in
| some somehow converted into clubs.
| baxtr wrote:
| Excuse my lack of experience in that matter, but with modern
| inventions like the watch shouldn't keeping track of time be
| something that is possible?
| jamiek88 wrote:
| Time is a feeling too, it's the sense of time that goes awry.
| Like casinos attempt to mimic.
| dghughes wrote:
| I worked in a casino and I don't think the owners or the
| design are intentionally trying to fool you any more than a
| department store would. You are distracted playing games
| and lose all track of time since it's more engaging than
| shopping for socks.
| andsoitis wrote:
| Casino design employs various tactics to make players
| lose track of time, encouraging longer play and increased
| spending. These techniques include eliminating clocks and
| windows, using maze-like layouts, and manipulating
| sensory experiences like lighting, sound, and scent.
|
| I know your point is they don't do it more than
| department stores do, and you might very well be right. I
| think it is probably hard to prove either way.
|
| https://www.e-architect.com/articles/the-psychology-
| behind-c...
| toast0 wrote:
| I've been in plenty of department stores with windows
| though. And I don't think I've been to any that drew a
| false sky on the ceiling. Many stores and malls have
| skylights too, although when they're the translucent
| ones, they might be also uplit, so you might not notice
| it's dark outside.
|
| I think there's at least a difference of degree, but I
| think it's more than that.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| Department stores want you to be intrigued and maybe pick
| up extra stuff on the way to the thing you actually want
| to buy, but they don't necessarily want you to _loiter_.
| Idle loitering doesn 't get you more purchases, at least
| not immediately.
|
| This is different from a casino, where the most likely
| thing you'll do if loitering is to sit at a table or
| machine and gamble more.
| Luc wrote:
| Pretty much everything about a casino is intentionally
| designed to make you lose track of time.
|
| Source: "Addiction by Design: Machine Gambling in Las
| Vegas" by Schull
|
| https://www.amazon.com/Addiction-Design-Machine-Gambling-
| Veg...
| xorbax wrote:
| Are there clocks in your casino so people can note how
| long they've been playing?
| rollcat wrote:
| Your body will disagree with the watch at some point.
|
| Imagine being stuck sick at home or in the hospital for an
| extended period of time - you will lose track of which
| weekday it is.
| ghaff wrote:
| As someone who is semi-retired I definitely have to
| sometimes check to confirm what day it is.
| baxtr wrote:
| What's the day today?
| FuriouslyAdrift wrote:
| The mind absent of daylight stimulation will develop a
| completely different sense of time
|
| https://howandwhys.com/michel-siffre-time-experiment-body-
| sl...
| udev4096 wrote:
| Past, present and future is nothing but a stubborn illusion!
| palmotea wrote:
| > Excuse my lack of experience in that matter, but with
| modern inventions like the watch shouldn't keeping track of
| time be something that is possible?
|
| No, just like the existence of books or the internet doesn't
| relieve you of needing to know stuff.
|
| Everyone has internal sense of time that relies on external
| natural cues. A watch is a kludgy bolt-on that's not well
| integrated with one's awareness.
| AStonesThrow wrote:
| 26 years ago I was interviewing for a sysadmin job in an
| academic setting. And I was invited to my prospective
| coworker's office. He was a software developer, mostly, but
| jack-of-all-trades for the office systems. There was a lot of
| data processing involved.
|
| His office featured a Sun workstation on his desktop, and a
| desk piled rather high with paperwork and whatnot. There was
| absolutely no wall clock anywhere to be found. His
| workstation's desktop also did not feature a clock. There was
| really no indication of the passage of time in that space.
|
| I drank in the import of this, and I asked him if it was
| true, and he agreed readily. I was sort of amazed. But it was
| also quite humbling that he could construct such a space,
| where he could basically throw himself into his work and
| dedicate as much time as necessary, until his stomach or
| fatigue drew him back into the real world.
| ghaff wrote:
| People did commonly wear watches as well. I'm somewhat
| bemused to recall that, around the time of the Apple Watch
| announcement, so many people scoffed that young people
| don't wear watches any longer. Of course, we see how that
| went and they have timepieces in their pocket in any case.
|
| I'm actually not sure if, after a recent post-fire rebuild,
| if I will have a readily viewable clock in my kitchen or
| not.
| xorbax wrote:
| I mean, we just have integrated pocket-watches.
| Onavo wrote:
| How do you deal with the mold problem?
| seb1204 wrote:
| Control moisture in the air?
| AStonesThrow wrote:
| In high school we were having growing pangs, and so several of
| my classes were held in temporary trailers that had been hauled
| onto campus for that purpose. They were serviceable and not
| particularly hostile, and arguably more modern than the
| existing classrooms we were using anyway.
|
| Then I graduate and enroll in a cushy university (UCSD) and
| come to find out, they're also having growing pangs, and so in
| the middle of campus we found ourselves taking classes in
| Quonset huts. These Quonset huts were _bona fide_ military
| surplus, though it was already 1990.
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quonset_hut
|
| The Quonset huts were extraordinarily different from the
| classrooms and lab facilities we used on campus; they were, of
| course, comparatively set out in the wilderness, and very rough
| accommodations overall.
|
| However, I was a commuting student, and nobody was living in
| Quonset huts, so after our hourlong class was dismissed, I was
| able to retreat to the relative comfort of home, or the
| Theodore Geisel library.
| bschne wrote:
| > In high school we were having growing pangs
|
| weren't we all...
| h2zizzle wrote:
| I wish. I never really had a "spurt" or "pangs".
| linksnapzz wrote:
| I worked at UCSD in one of the "temporary" classroom/offices
| next to the Eucalyptus Point dining hall. We had a family of
| raccoons under ours for several years, which I blamed on the
| questionable shoring and piers that supported those.
|
| In addition, one of my co-workers was heavy enough such that
| he could deform the floor in one just by standing up and
| walking around, so much so that pens/markers would roll off
| nearby desks as he went past.
| elashri wrote:
| Summer students at CERN lives in CERN Meyrin hostel nowadays. I
| heard that this make life much easier for them. But it is more
| affordable than anything in Geneva or Meyrin. And definitely
| would fit the low O(2) accepted students. At the expense of
| "gently" kicking everyone else.
| rz2k wrote:
| Hopefully the students weren't low O_2 when they lived in
| bunkers.
| elashri wrote:
| I realized now that I used this jargon and would have
| different meaning too :D
|
| Just for reference, some people in particle physics would
| use this to refer to O(x) where x is the order of magnitude
| number. so O(2) would means hundreds. So "low O(2)" would
| mean low hundreds, say around 200-300.
| thatfrenchguy wrote:
| > - It's remarkably easy to lose track of time without natural
| light cues
|
| What was wild to me moving to the US from France was how many
| office buildings have many rooms without windows: you could be
| in your office or in meeting rooms and there are just zero
| natural light. Same in doctor's offices where you're always
| seen in a windowless window. Would drive me crazy if I had to
| work there all day.
| macNchz wrote:
| Windowless office spaces are so miserable to me. Often under-
| ventilated and _over_ lit with unpleasant artificial light as
| well.
|
| On this topic, something window-related that's common in
| France but rare in the US is functional shutters--it's so
| nice to be able to completely close a shutter outside your
| bedroom window and have pitch blackness, regardless of the
| light outside. The best you get in a typical American house
| is "blackout" curtains or shades that leak tons of light
| around the edges.
| pmontra wrote:
| That seems to be a Mediterranean thing. Pitch black
| shutters are common also in Italy and (AFAIK) Spain. No
| idea about the eastern and southern Mediterranean.
|
| Rolling shutters are the norm in Italy. Old houses or
| country houses have traditional shutters, in the latter
| case mostly because of aesthetics. They come in two
| varieties: they open like the doors of wardrobe or they
| slide on a rail on the outside of the wall. All of them
| used to be made of wood, they are PVC or aluminum now.
| Windows with only heavy dark curtains inside basically are
| not a thing.
|
| No idea about the reason. Some random ideas. 1) no need to
| protect against excessive cold and wind (curtains are very
| useful for that) and it's ok to open a window and open or
| close shutters. 2) hail can break glass windows and
| shutters protect them. Are hail storms historically common
| also in northern Europe? Maybe not.
| ks1723 wrote:
| They are also common in France and Germany:
|
| These shutters serve as insulation in locations prone to
| harsh weather conditions, safeguarding windows from hail
| damage and designed to endure strong winds.
|
| From https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roller_shutter
| eesmith wrote:
| Insulation. When the day is hot and night cool, and
| humidity relatively low, use thick walls to moderate the
| temperature swings. Close the windows by mid-morning to
| block out the sun and keep the inside cool. Open them in
| the evening to cool off.
| dekhn wrote:
| I strongly prefer windowless offices for work. The outside
| looks distracting (enticing), people walk by, the light is
| bright, etc. My ideal work environment would be a small room
| with a door that closes and excellent sound isolation and
| ambient lighting control. But I am definitely not typical.
| sschueller wrote:
| I recently found out there in a command bunker (K85) smack in the
| middle of Stadelhofen, Zurich. It was only declassified in 2009.
| The primary access is via the tunnel. The 30m shaft was
| originally used while constructing the tunnel but was never
| filled in and turned into the bunker. It went into operation in
| 1989 and closed in 2009 but is still used as an emergency tunnel
| exist in case of a fire etc.
|
| [1]
| https://www.tiktok.com/@mikealpharomeotangoindia/video/74960...
| (in Swiss German)
| LooerCell wrote:
| If you want to read more about the topic and about the readiness
| of the Swiss army, I can recommend a short book by John McPhee
| called La Place de la Concorde Suisse
| bilekas wrote:
| Fun fact, Finland also has a lot of bunkers, for more obvious
| reasons, enough I believe to host their whole population.
|
| The TLDR : they are obliged to have bunkers for a given
| population in an area thanks to Russian military aggression over
| the years.
|
| > Finland has around 50,500 civil defence shelters with space for
| about 4.8 million people
|
| https://valtioneuvosto.fi/en/-/1410869/finland-has-civil-def...
| PicassoCTs wrote:
| Its the hood that maketh the bunker a good idea..
| diggan wrote:
| Similarly, my home country Sweden also has a bunch of civil
| defense shelters, built during the cold war if I remember
| correctly, as we've been scared of the Russians for a long time
| too.
|
| > There are around 64,000 civil defence shelters in Sweden,
| with space for around seven million people. Shelters can be
| found in various types of buildings, such as residential and
| industrial properties, and are marked with a special sign. In
| peacetime, a civil defence shelter can be used for other
| purposes.
|
| https://www.msb.se/en/advice-for-individuals/civil-defence-s...
|
| Anyone growing up in Sweden would recognize these orange/blue
| triangles indicating a shelter, and the large metal doors in
| your apartment-building cellar, where you store old shit you no
| longer use.
| t1E9mE7JTRjf wrote:
| Wait until you see Albania.
| surfingdino wrote:
| "Concrete military bunkers are a ubiquitous sight in Albania,
| with an average of 5.7 bunkers for every square kilometer (14.7
| per square mile)."
|
| source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunkers_in_Albania
| CTDOCodebases wrote:
| For anyone interested this the bunkers and their history:
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9bPIaHg11mI
| eternaut wrote:
| Because they are a rough state, with a banking system needed by
| organised crime as well as dictators, warlords etc. All those
| bunkers because they rightfully fear to get pay back for
| centuries of being the "Schurkenstaat" that they are.
| -\\_(tsu)_/-
| palmotea wrote:
| I envy these European countries, who can manage to do things
| collectively that make sense to do collectively.
|
| Vs. America, which is all just "hooray individualism: you're all
| on your own."
| mlinhares wrote:
| There are places where it happens in America, its just very
| hard to do that in such a large country without leaders that
| want to make it happen. Its much more profitable for
| politicians to have a population that doesn't want to work
| together and keeps fighting each other for transgender rights
| when they can't make ends meet and are one step away from being
| homeless.
|
| I think the last chance we had for a politician that was
| somewhat visionary was with the first Obama term but he was too
| entrenched in the politics to actually drive any real change,
| with all that bipartisanship bullshit. Now they will just
| continue to invest in driving a wedge between the population to
| prevent them from noticing they're in a class war.
| amiga386 wrote:
| Another way to look at it is through the lens of
| _nationalism_. Other countries, which have formed around
| _nations_ (which are groups of people with a collective
| identity), have an inherent need to care for "their" people.
| Slovakia is 83.8% Slovak. Portugal is 87.8% Portuguese.
| Poland is 98.8% Polish. [*]
|
| America is a country of immigrants. Apart from the brutally
| oppressed indigenous population, _everyone_ is from somewhere
| else. Hence the Americans ' obsession with _heritage_ (the
| Italian-Americans, the Irish-Americans, the Black Americans,
| etc.), and even grouping as blocs based on their ancestry -
| it is because they don 't see themselves as being an American
| nation?
|
| [*] This can be a problem in its own right, e.g. the ethnic
| cleansing of the Bosnians by Serbians, the players in the
| Balkan war each wanted "their" people on "their" side of the
| border, and murdered or displaced others to make it so. Also,
| to be fair, a number of European countries no longer collect
| nationality/ethnicity, including the Swiss, possibly because
| they don't want such maps to exist for any future
| nationalists to make use of.
| mlinhares wrote:
| Not sure, there have been moments of unity in the country,
| but you need someone inspiring to make that happen or a
| common enemy everyone can rally against, like what is
| happening in Canada right now. We're missing this inspiring
| factor, nations are mostly a made up construct, you can
| definitely build it one way or another.
| psunavy03 wrote:
| That's a fairly sophomoric take, to be honest. Not only is
| Europe a large place which can't be homogenized into one
| culture, so is the US. Unless you really think California and
| Texas will approach a problem the same? Or New York vs Alabama?
|
| And a lot of these "collectivist" things in Europe are being
| proven to have been underwritten by the US defense budget, and
| now that that's no longer the case, uncomfortable conversations
| are starting to occur on the eastern side of the pond.
| an0malous wrote:
| Do you have examples of the underwritten things? I haven't
| heard of this
| psunavy03 wrote:
| I'm not saying there are line items in the US defense
| budget for European programs. I'm saying the existence of
| NATO and the guarantee of a robust US response to any
| attack on a member has allowed Europe to prioritize doing
| other things with their tax bases and budgets than fund
| robust militaries.
|
| And that a lot of the scoffing online about how Europe is
| somehow more "enlightened" than the US by having more
| generous social safety nets is at least partially due to
| said social safety nets being able to be paid for because
| the US is guaranteeing military support in the event of a
| crisis.
|
| Now, under Trump (whether or not you agree), there are
| going to have to be some hard choices in European capitals
| on how to fund a military deterrent to Russia if the US
| policy is "maybe we will, maybe we won't." Article 5 of the
| North Atlantic Treaty is still the law of the land, but a
| Trumpist government may decide to provide only the bare
| minimum support needed.
| senderista wrote:
| > Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty is still the law
| of the land, but a Trumpist government may decide to
| provide only the bare minimum support needed.
|
| Or a Trumpist government may decide to provide no support
| at all, given how they have treated "the law of the land"
| so far.
| MonkeyClub wrote:
| Pulling out of NATO or just not honoring Art. 5 wouldn't
| be unthinkable for Trump, and your comment is relevant to
| GP's and to the thread; I don't know why you're getting
| downvoted.
|
| Downvotes are supposedly for culling irrelevant comments,
| not to express dislike, or am I confusing things?
| ahmeneeroe-v2 wrote:
| People are downvoting you, but you're absolutely right.
|
| Funny enough, when talking about European problems I've
| often found that downvotes happen in the (US) morning
| (when the Euros are still awake) and upvotes happen in
| the (US) evening
| panick21_ wrote:
| The whole 'military explains everything' point isn't
| really accurate. Many US troops stationed in Europe were
| paid for by Europe.
|
| Most US military spending was on things other then
| Europe. Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afganistan, non have
| anything to do with Europe.
|
| Lots of military spending was needed even if the US had
| been by itself. And the US made lots of money selling
| military equipment to Europe.
|
| Depending on what nations you compare it to, the
| difference during the cold war was a few % of GDP. Not
| enough to explain all the difference in social and other
| state programs. As the difference in spending is often
| 15-20%pt or more.
|
| So the real difference is clearly willingness for
| taxation and social programs. And of course nations like
| Finland and Sweden were never part of NATO.
| Epa095 wrote:
| In 1989 average NATO military spending was 4% of GDP, in
| 2014 it was dropped to 1.4%. The peace dividend is real,
| but it don't explain everything.
|
| European countries had cheap higher education and
| healthcare in 1989 as well, even with higher military
| spending (and higher than USA has today, which is roughly
| 3.37%). Estonia and Poland both spend more than the US,
| and they both manage cheap higher education and public
| healthcare. This indicates that it's also a choice of
| priorities, where European countries seem more willing to
| increase taxes for these kind of services.
|
| Personally I think it has something with the sense of
| belonging, where Europeans belong to a country, most of
| them with less than 30 million people. Americans are one
| in 350 million, so it makes sense to me that it's harder
| to feel 'part' of the same tribe as the other 350 million
| people.
|
| But you are right that Europe will have to face some hard
| choices, both because we get less support from the US,
| and because Russia is more aggressive than before.
| Personally I am quite convinced that in 5-10 years most
| European countries will still have cheap higher education
| and healthcare, but maybe higher taxes.
| Synaesthesia wrote:
| The US achieved a lot collectively, they created a really
| public education system for instance.
| k4rli wrote:
| US colleges however seems about the same level of education
| one receives in the 3 yrs of high school in Europe.
| yodsanklai wrote:
| My impression is that "public" is a very politically charged
| term in the US. Lots of people are suspicious of anything
| "public".
| RajT88 wrote:
| You'd be right. Public schools are thought of as second
| rate.
|
| It's kind of amazing - friends of mine consider private
| school (which cost as much as a college education when I
| was young) to be a must-have. Imagine paying 20-40k a year
| for your kid's high school, or sometimes grade school! And
| these are very successful people _who went to public school
| themselves_. One is a college flunk-out.
|
| My wife and I don't have kids, so I guess I don't get it. I
| suspect it's not just about education, but also classism,
| trying to ensure the kids end up in the right socio-
| economic class when they grow up.
| lolinder wrote:
| Local public schools vary dramatically in quality. A
| perfectly rational parent could have grown up in a good
| public school and when looking at the school that is
| assigned to their children based on where they moved to
| decide that private school is right for their kids given
| the public option they're faced with.
| RajT88 wrote:
| A valid point. But - at least a couple people I know are
| choosing not to send their kids to better public schools
| than they themselves attended.
| inanutshellus wrote:
| Private school is about "who you grow up knowing" not
| merely a "better education".
| RajT88 wrote:
| Ahhhh see that makes more sense.
| jsbg wrote:
| > Vs. America, which is all just "hooray individualism: you're
| all on your own."
|
| Switzerland is about half the size of Maine. Not everything is
| about your perceived failings of American culture.
| brummm wrote:
| What does size have to do with it? Switzerland also has less
| GDP, less tax revenue and less people to build things.
| ty6853 wrote:
| Because when you're talking about federal/nation level
| spending it is easier to get people to spend money on a
| bridge or institution they have some chance of being able
| to drive to within a day rather than convincing a guy in
| Montana why he should be paying for native Hawaiian culture
| in some remote village in the Pacific he can't afford to
| visit and will probably be kapu'd out of by someone
| screaming about haoles.
|
| As the nations grow in size you generally end up splitting
| into states that have more localized incentives and/or you
| have a more brutal central apparatus like in the large
| states of China/Russia.
| palmotea wrote:
| > Switzerland is about half the size of Maine. Not everything
| is about your perceived failings of American culture.
|
| But this is. This is about attitudes, not size.
| stickfigure wrote:
| Building bunker capacity for every citizen is definitely
| about size. The US is incredibly spread out compared to
| most European countries.
|
| And even culturally, population size determines attitudes.
| How do Europeans feel about Brussels? Can you imagine the
| commission building an EU-wide bunker system?
| BjoernKW wrote:
| Switzerland is one of the few examples where such collective
| large-scale (i.e. state-run) endeavours still work.
|
| In many other countries it's rather crumbling infrastructure
| and massive public spending and bureaucracy with little to show
| for.
| dmje wrote:
| My (probably naive) take on this is that America / the American
| Dream is founded on this principle of individualism / "boy done
| good" / "everyone can make something of themselves", and thus
| maybe a deep fear of collectivism? So:
|
| 1) wide dislike of any sort of social support mechanism (no
| public healthcare, poor support for the elderly / infirm / etc)
|
| 2) long history of anti-socialism and major fear of anything
| more radical, "reds under the bed" etc etc
|
| 3) little funding going towards big public infrastructure
| projects - I had a link to a well researched article - but
| can't now find it - talking about how US roads, powergrid, etc,
| is all crumbling away because nothing has been invested in
| significantly for decades
|
| 4) things like private prisons, all with profit-making as
| motive rather than anything wider such as societal good being
| considered
|
| As a lefty, this all makes me chuckle - the idea that anyone
| could be foolish enough to think they can do _anything_ alone
| without a huge lifelong support network just seems ridiculous.
| Even the most "self-made" founder who "came from nothing" has
| had to lean heavily on buses, trains, schools, universities,
| medical aid, electricity, their families, friends, the
| internet...
|
| As someone once said, no man is an island - or I guess "it
| takes a village to raise a child" - so paying it forwards or
| backwards in taxes is a no-brainer if you think about it
| rationally.
|
| Here endeth the socialist lesson.
| mig39 wrote:
| I'd love someone to explain HOAs to me. They seem very
| prevalent in the USA. And it's the opposite of "freedom."
| dragonwriter wrote:
| HOA's are prominent in the US because they and the
| restrictive covenants imposing them were a way to replace
| _de jure_ public racial discrimination and segregation with
| technically-private-but-legally-durable racial and cultural
| discrimination. The explicit racial aspect has since been
| made legally unavailable, but they remain a tool to enforce
| outward cultural conformity, which has a strong racial
| valence.
| bombcar wrote:
| Or they provide for maintenance of the common areas
| (mowing, plowing) and maybe some minor amenities. Or the
| houses are basically built into a country club.
|
| I find that the places where there are insane HOAs are
| just as insane in the houses that aren't under HOAs.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| > Or they provide for maintenance of the common areas
|
| HOAs do that, yes, but that's not why they are so
| pervasive in the US, even in non-condominium style
| developments, and intrusive in their government of what
| goes on in non-common areas.
| bombcar wrote:
| I think you'll find that they're vastly different in
| different parts of the USA.
|
| Around here you have Zillow reporting "HOA dues: $25/yr"
| and similar.
| dragonwriter wrote:
| I'm not sure what point you think Zillow reporting the
| current dues amount makes one way or another about the
| historical reason they are so prevalent.
|
| Pretty sure that's what Zillow does anywhere where there
| are HOA dues, sure.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| Considering that America has contributed much more good to the
| world in general than any other country, I'd say whatever
| attitude America has is the right one. But I can say that it's
| not the attitude that you claim it is.
| chrisdhoover wrote:
| The US had civil defense, air raid sirens and fallout shelters.
| Students practiced duck and cover. The paranoia was real. It
| led to the star wars defense program and out spending the
| Soviet union until they collapsed.
|
| Switzerland is surrounded by belligerents who have historically
| been at war with each other. France vs Italy. Italy versus
| Austria and Germany against everyone.
|
| Your take ignores the history of accomplishment in the US. The
| founding, the constitution, settling the continent , building
| great cities, industrialization, defeating Nazis, building the
| Interstate highway system, landing on the moon and placing
| satellites in space, creating world changing technology to name
| but a few.
| Synaesthesia wrote:
| During this Russo-Ukrainian war I was astonished that civilians
| will emerge from bunkers after some really intense fighting in a
| city, like Avdiivka or Bakhmut, fights where the entire city was
| leveled. I didn't think anyone could survive in there.
|
| Turns out not only were Soviet structures all reinforced and even
| able to survive nuclear blasts, but they also have bomb bunkers
| underground.
| Tade0 wrote:
| Subway stations all over the eastern block were built to serve
| as bomb shelters when needed.
|
| Nowadays this is used mainly during heavy rains, as the gates
| are watertight:
|
| https://bi.im-g.pl/im/0/9990/z9990270IHG,W-srode-Jarek-Kowal...
|
| When this picture was taken the trains would skip this station,
| but were otherwise functioning as normal.
| jmyeet wrote:
| Switzerland has a defensive army. It's not designed to project
| power in any way or invade. It's strictly designed to repel an
| invasion. Every part of the Swiss military state can be
| understood in this context.
|
| This is in stark contrast to the failed US (through NATO) foreign
| poicy with respect to Ukraine. Ukraine should've had a defensive
| army as well but didn't. And the US is to blame as to why.
|
| In the wake of the collapse of the USSR, it's claimed that the US
| promised not to expand NATO east [1]. This is disputed. What
| isn't disputed is that George W. Bush opened the door to Ukraine
| joining NATO [2]. Now this was never going to happen. Germany
| (for one) would veto it. Having NATO on the border with Russia is
| a recipe for disaster.
|
| It is completely reasonable for Russia to not want NATO on their
| doorstep. Look at a map and Ukraine is like an invasion corridor
| to Russia. For comparison, the US almost started World War Three
| over Cuba after provoking the US provked the USSR in Turkey. It
| should really be called the Turkey Nuclear Missile Crisis. Thiss
| is called the Monroe Doctrine [3].
|
| Giving Ukraine this hope was a strategic error and destabilizing
| to the region. What Ukraine actually needed was a defensive army
| like Switzerland. Bunkers, fortifications, infrastructure for an
| insurgency in case of invasion and the promise of neutrality.
|
| Would this have stopped a Russian invasion? We'll never know. But
| it was still the right thing to do. It would in the very least
| make the pretense for the Russian invasion even less legitimate
| (to be clear, it's illegitimate).
|
| [1]: https://www.nato.int/acad/fellow/98-00/tome.pdf
|
| [2]: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2008/apr/01/nato.georgia
|
| [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine
| jsbg wrote:
| I read the interesting linked article about bunkers in
| Switzerland and it totally went over my head that it was all
| about US foreign policy in Ukraine.
| senderista wrote:
| Well the Donbas front line (e.g. Avdiivka) was one of the most
| fortified places on earth and it didn't stop Russia from
| eventually steamrolling it (although at great cost).
| Duwensatzaj wrote:
| > Having NATO on the border with Russia is a recipe for
| disaster.
|
| With Finland having joined NATO in 2023 there is a land border
| with Russia, so...
|
| But yes, as you touch on later land invasion through Ukraine is
| far more a threat to Russia than invasion through Finland.
| twodave wrote:
| How is it the fault of the US that Ukraine has no defensive
| army? Having hope (but not a promise, just the support of an
| outgoing(!!) president) of one day being able to join NATO is
| not the same as being invited. They took a risk and it didn't
| work out as I see it.
|
| It seems most of the world a) wants the US to stop meddling but
| also b) blame them for whatever is broken abroad due to their
| inaction.
| some_random wrote:
| As far as I can tell OP is deluded into believing that the US
| forced the Ukrainians to build an expeditionary army that
| could be the tip of the spear invading Russia.
| ahmeneeroe-v2 wrote:
| >And the US is to blame as to why.
|
| Sounds like Ukraine wanted to be part of the US Empire, rather
| than their own country.
| derriz wrote:
| > It is completely reasonable for Russia to not want NATO on
| their doorstep.
|
| There must be a name for this sort of false argument.
|
| What Russia "wants" with respect to its neighbors is not the
| problem. It's the large scale ground invasion, indiscriminate
| killing of civilians, kidnapping children, torturing
| journalists, shelling cities to rubble.
|
| There's absolutely nothing reasonable about Russia's attitude.
| You don't get to pick what clubs your neighbors decide to
| willingly join. Does Poland get to demand that Belarus not join
| CSTO? Does the US get to demand that Canada leave the IPCC?
| walrus01 wrote:
| The name for it is "repeating very well trod RT and Sputnik
| talking points". The concept that Ukraine was going to serve
| as a springboard to a land based invasion of Russia is
| utterly preposterous. No such amount of NATO-based forces
| exist anywhere in western europe in any organized
| concentration of armored vehicles at the brigade or division
| levels.
| jmyeet wrote:
| I want you to imagine a scenario where China forms a military
| relationship with Canada and/or Mexico and builds a whole
| bunch of forward operating and missile bases along the US
| border. How do you think the US would react to that? Would we
| just accept it? Would the US say "hey, we don't get to decide
| what clubs our neighbours decide to willingly join"? Of
| course not.
|
| We have evidence of this where the US almost triggerd nuclear
| war over missiles in Cuba, which again was a response to
| Jupiter nuclear missiles being stationed in Turkey.
|
| So why would Russia be OK with hostile military bases all
| along its border?
| mopsi wrote:
| > I want you to imagine a scenario where China forms a
| military relationship with Canada and/or Mexico and builds
| a whole bunch of forward operating and missile bases along
| the US border.
|
| How is that relevant? Nobody built any "forward operating
| and missile bases" in the entire Eastern Europe, and those
| that used to be in Western Europe have been largely
| dismantled in the decades that followed the Cold War. What
| "hostile missile bases" are you talking of? Can you name a
| single one?
| jmyeet wrote:
| If Ukraine joined NATO then, by definition, every
| military base in Ukraine woudl be a NATO forward
| operating base on Russia's border.
|
| I notice you avoided the hypothetical about China putting
| military bases along the US border in Mexico and Canada
| because there's no answer to that: everybody knows we
| would never accept it. So why should Russia?
| mopsi wrote:
| > What isn't disputed is that George W. Bush opened the door to
| Ukraine joining NATO [2]. Now this was never going to happen.
| Germany (for one) would veto it. Having NATO on the border with
| Russia is a recipe for disaster.
|
| It will happen. It is inevitable. That Russia has lost the war
| against Ukraine has been obvious for some time, and sooner or
| later the war will end with the frontlines remaining roughly
| where they are now, if not farther east. After that, NATO
| membership for Ukraine will be one of the few realistic options
| to prevent renewed Russian aggression.
|
| As for the claim of "NATO on Russia's doorstep", a former
| Russian foreign minister has for decades described NATO as an
| organization that offers free security to Russia. This is
| because NATO binds its members together and stabilizes each
| individual country. This dynamic is evident in the current
| support for Ukraine: NATO countries consult extensively with
| one another before making decisions, because poorly thought out
| initiatives could endanger all allies. As a result, their
| actions are proportional, measured and clearly communicated
| well in advance. For a country allegedly concerned about its
| security, such neighbors would be a godsend.
|
| But the truth is that NATO and other forms of international
| cooperation turns invasions of neighboring countries from
| winnable small wars into unwinnable quagmires, and that's what
| truly bothers the Russians. Foreign support has turned Russia's
| war against Ukraine into one of the greatest failures in
| Russian military history. In a month or two, the casualties
| will exceed one million, with very little to show for it.
| kjkjadksj wrote:
| Uhh I don't know how much more defensively minded you can get
| when the average age of a soldier in the ukraine is what 40
| years old now from the demand of able bodied people not just in
| usual western military years (who pass over people past 25 in
| conscription). Everyone who can seemingly is contributing to
| the defensive effort.
|
| What might you even do differently? Switzerland is mountainous
| terrain. One could conceivably hold off a column of armor with
| the right geography with an irregular militia; ied the start of
| the column and it blocks itself in a chokepoint. You can't do
| that in the ukraine. It is board flat wheat fields. You can
| mine it which both sides have done by now but that is about all
| you can do defensively over such a porous surface for
| mechanized infantry. There is no hold point. Frankly it is
| bewildering to me why russia did not take over the country in
| 30 days or so considering. This should have been a desert storm
| situation for russia. Clearly something is going right
| defensively to protract this war for so long on the part of
| ukraine.
| stuff4ben wrote:
| This is my reminder to add to my family's emergency stockpile for
| the month. Probably should do some rotating of my stock too.
| kjkjadksj wrote:
| Isn't the move to never rotate stock? You'd probably be happy
| with that 10 year expired can of beans if you were reduced to
| just that in your resource war scenario.
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2025-05-06 23:01 UTC)