[HN Gopher] Modern LaTeX
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Modern LaTeX
        
       Author : signa11
       Score  : 202 points
       Date   : 2025-05-05 05:18 UTC (17 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (github.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (github.com)
        
       | cadamsdotcom wrote:
       | Trivia: the correct capitalization is LaTeX and it's pronounced
       | "lay-tek".
       | 
       | Knuth & friends were on a roll naming things - the 80s must've
       | been quite a time.
       | 
       | As always wiki knows all: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaTeX
        
         | seanhunter wrote:
         | Another fun trivia:
         | 
         | The "La" in latex is Leslie Lamport.
         | https://lamport.azurewebsites.net/
        
         | TheAceOfHearts wrote:
         | The special naming convention is mostly used as a form of
         | elitist gatekeeping; it's a tribal shibboleth. You should be
         | able to figure out whether someone is talking about latex
         | (polymer) or latex (markup) from context, so having a special
         | naming convention is rather pretentious and superfluous. If
         | calling it lay-tek was important, they should've called it
         | laytek. Historically, as I understand it, distinctions between
         | the written and spoken forms of words were used as a form of
         | gatekeeping between elites and commoners. Same goes for arXiv.
         | 
         | The great thing about language is that you can just change
         | things if enough people play along. Call it gif or jif, arxiv
         | or archive, latex or laytek.
        
           | josephg wrote:
           | Eh - the name is a bit of fun. Its fun to form communities
           | with in-jokes and tribal knowledge and silly names. It
           | doesn't hurt anyone. Lets not sacrifice everything joyous at
           | the altar of being friendly to noobs.
        
           | mariusor wrote:
           | They did call it Latek, the X in the name is the Greek letter
           | kh (Chi) and in my opinion, it's not an elitist shibboleth
           | but a way to showcase the advantages of their typesetting
           | system over existing, at the time, methods that didn't invest
           | a lot in rendering non ASCII character sets.
        
             | xboxnolifes wrote:
             | So it's not actually LaTaX, it's LaTekh. Make sure you type
             | it properly i guess.
        
           | IshKebab wrote:
           | Is arXiv not pronounced the same as "archive"? I agree with
           | you about LaTeX but arXiv seems like an obvious allusion to
           | "archive"?
        
             | DemocracyFTW2 wrote:
             | Well it does lack that final -e of archive, and--fun fact!
             | --like LaTeX which I know as ['la:tec], arXiv could
             | plausibly be pronounced [ar'ci:f] in German although I've
             | never heard anyone pronounce that name. So why is it arXiv
             | not at least arXive with an -e?
        
               | IshKebab wrote:
               | Because they're trying to be quirky I guess, but it is
               | still unmistakably a weird spelling of "archive"
               | (especially given the context).
        
           | n2h4 wrote:
           | in both arXiv and LaTeX, X is greek(chi).
        
         | kashunstva wrote:
         | > it's pronounced "lay-tek"
         | 
         | Or "lah-tek", the Wikipedia article doesn't seem to address
         | which, if either is preferred. And I think Leslie Lamport said
         | that he didn't want to impose any particular pronunciation.
        
           | mcv wrote:
           | I've always pronounced it lah-tech, with the guttural ch from
           | the Greek chi, which is what the X represents.
        
           | mturmon wrote:
           | This is accurate.
        
         | mturmon wrote:
         | This is incorrect. In his book on LaTeX, Leslie Lamport
         | specifically says that he does not care how you pronounce it.
         | (See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LaTeX#Pronouncing_and_
         | writing_...)
         | 
         | Knuth, on the other hand, has a whole rationale on why it's
         | pronounced "tech". ("Your keyboard should become slightly
         | moist", iirc).
        
         | kaoD wrote:
         | Voiceless velar fricative X or you're doing it wrong.
        
         | foldr wrote:
         | From a linguist's point of view this is a perfect example of
         | the chaos that ensues when people try to say how things are
         | pronounced without describing the speech sounds using standard
         | vocabulary.
         | 
         | Here are the inept pronunciation instructions on the LaTeX
         | project website:
         | 
         | > <<Lah-tech>> or <<Lay-tech>> (to rhyme with <<blech>> or
         | <<Bertolt Brecht>>)
         | 
         | The pronunciation of the 'ch' in 'blech' isn't really
         | standardized, so that's not much help. If we go by the German
         | pronunciation of Brecht then the sound should be [c], i.e. a
         | voiceless palatal fricative. But this seems to be a mistake, as
         | Knuth intended the X in TeX to be [x], i.e. a voiceless velar
         | fricative. In German, [c] is an allophone of /x/ (conditioned
         | by the preceding vowel), but they are distinct sounds, and
         | Knuth's directions for the pronunciation of TeX unambiguously
         | specify [x]. It seems unlikely that this difference between the
         | X in LaTeX and the X in TeX is intentional, so maybe this was a
         | confused attempt to identify the [x] sound.
         | 
         | Really then, it's anyone's guess how LaTeX is supposed to be
         | pronounced, since no-one with authority to specify has bothered
         | to look up the IPA symbols for the relevant speech sounds. But
         | IMO while [leItek] is a perfectly common and acceptable
         | pronunciation, it can only really be understood as an
         | anglicization of [leItex] rather than the canonical
         | pronunciation.
        
       | dochtman wrote:
       | Typst is the modern LaTeX.
       | 
       | https://typst.app/
        
         | fsiefken wrote:
         | Typst is more minimal and faster in compiling documents, I
         | prefer using it. But it's not in all cases a LaTex replacement.
         | The ecosystem is also larger. I have LaTex documents I struggle
         | to convert.
        
         | JohnKemeny wrote:
         | Typst sure has a lot of good marketeers. LaTeX never needed
         | that.
        
           | mr_mitm wrote:
           | I remember tons of latex zealots 20 years ago. The internet
           | must be full of latex vs word flamewars.
           | 
           | Also, typst is just really good.
        
             | Gualdrapo wrote:
             | I do remember that too. In fact it was one of my physics
             | teacher who got me into LaTeX - he used to complain about
             | Word while praising LaTeX and its WYSIWYM.
             | 
             | Though I ended being a graphic designer so LaTeX felt
             | rather limiting very quickly, but fortunately found
             | ConTeXt.
             | 
             | Hoped Typst was going to be great for my use case but alas
             | it's got the same "problem" as LaTeX - modularity. Still it
             | seems to be a great alternative for people doing standard
             | documents.
        
             | seanhunter wrote:
             | Twenty years ago you say. So that's when it had already
             | been in existence for 20+ years and had been ubiquitous in
             | academia (at least in the sciences) for 10 or more.
             | 
             | I'm sure you remember that quite clearly.
        
             | josephg wrote:
             | > Also, typst is just really good.
             | 
             | Yeah - typst has a bunch of features that I really want for
             | blog posts and rich documentation, where markdown isn't a
             | powerful enough tool. For example:
             | 
             | - Boxes & named figures
             | 
             | - Footnotes
             | 
             | - Variables, functions (incl populated from nearby files)
             | 
             | - Comments
             | 
             | - Chapter / Section headings (& auto generated table of
             | contents)
             | 
             | - Custom formatting rules (For example, typst lets you
             | define your own "warning box". Stuff like that.)
             | 
             | I don't know of a better tool to write my blog posts today.
             | Markdown doesn't have enough features. And I'm obviously
             | not writing blog posts in latex or a rich text editor. I
             | could use actual javascript / JSX or something - but those
             | tools aren't designed well for long form text content. (I
             | don't want to manually add <p> tags around my paragraphs
             | like a savage.)
             | 
             | Pity the html output is still a work in progress. I'm
             | eagerly awaiting it being ready for use!
        
               | mzl wrote:
               | MDX as a middle ground with most of the text standard
               | markdown and the escape hatch of custom React JSX when
               | needed has worked well for me.
        
               | josephg wrote:
               | MDX advertises itself as "markdown + components", but its
               | not commonmark compatible. I tried using it a few years
               | ago. In the process, I migrated over some regular
               | markdown documents and they render incorrectly using MDX.
               | 
               | I filed a bug (this was a few years ago) and I was told
               | commonmark compatibility was an explicit non goal for the
               | project. Meh.
        
               | godelski wrote:
               | You can do footnotes in markdown [^0]
               | 
               | [^0]: it doesn't matter where this is placed, just that
               | this one has a colon.
               | 
               | The table of contents thing is annoying but it's not hard
               | to write a little bash script. Sed and regex are all you
               | need.                 > Markdown doesn't have enough
               | features
               | 
               | Markdown has _too many_ features
               | 
               | The issue is you're using the wrong tool. Markdown is not
               | intended for making fancy documents or blogs, it's meant
               | to be a deadass simple format that can be read in
               | anything. Hell, its goal is to be readable in a text
               | editor so its more about styling. If you really want to
               | use it and have occasional fanciness, you can use html.
               | 
               | But don't turn a tool that is explicitly meant to be
               | simple into something complicated just because it doesn't
               | have enough features. The lack of features is the point.
        
               | josephg wrote:
               | > The issue is you're using the wrong tool.
               | 
               | Yes, I think we're in violent agreement that markdown is
               | the wrong tool for the job. That's why I find it baffling
               | how so many blogging & documentation tools lock you in to
               | using markdown, with its anaemic feature set (eg mdbook).
               | 
               | Even markdown + inline HTML is wildly inadequate. For
               | example, you can't make automatically numbered sections.
               | Or figures with links in the text. Or a ToC. And so on.
               | Try and attach a caption to an image and you're basically
               | hand authoring your document in crappy HTML.
               | 
               | So I agree with you. I don't think the answer is
               | "markdown++" with comments, templating and scripting
               | support. I think the answer is something else. Something
               | which has considered the needs of authoring documents
               | from the start. Something like typst.
        
               | godelski wrote:
               | > That's why I find it baffling how so many blogging &
               | documentation tools lock you in to using
               | 
               | I feel this about so many things and it boggles my mind
               | why people often choose to do things the hardest way
               | possible.
               | 
               | Honestly, I think a good portion of it of the
               | unwillingness to toss something aside and write something
               | new. If it's just a hack on a hack on a hack on a hack
               | then no wonder it's shit. It's funny that often it's
               | quicker to rewrite than force your way through.
               | 
               | I'm worried that with LLMs and vibe coding on the rise
               | we're just going to get more. Because people will be
               | asking "how do I make X do Y" when in reality you
               | shouldn't ever make X do Y, you need to find a different
               | tool.
        
               | josephg wrote:
               | > I'm worried that with LLMs and vibe coding on the rise
               | we're just going to get more.
               | 
               | I'm hoping the opposite, at least eventually. I think
               | before long it'll be easy to get chatgpt to build your
               | own version of whatever you want, from scratch.
               | 
               | Eg, "Hey, I want something kinda like markdown but with
               | these other features. Write me the spec. Implement a
               | renderer for documents in Go - and write a vs code
               | extension + language server for it."
               | 
               | But if that happens, we'll get way more fragmentation of
               | the computing ecosystem. Maybe to the point that you
               | really need the memory of a LLM to even know what's out
               | there - let alone understand how to glue everything
               | together.
        
               | godelski wrote:
               | You missed my concern. Even if LLMs get much but it
               | doesn't mean the users will ask the right questions. Even
               | now many don't ask the right questions, why would it be
               | any better when we just scale the issue?
        
             | DocTomoe wrote:
             | Word 20 years ago was a very different beast compared to
             | word today. For starters, it still had a closed, binary
             | (read: not friendly to source control) format. It also had
             | more bugs than Klendathu.
             | 
             | When you are losing your semester's 25-page seminal work an
             | hour before deadline because Word had that weird little bug
             | about long documents and random CJK characters (and whether
             | or not the moon was currently in the House of Aquarius
             | supposedly), you develop a ... healthy dislike for it.
             | 
             | LaTeX back in the day didn't need zealots - Word did all
             | the heavy lifting in demolishing itself for anything more
             | involved than 'Secretary writes a letter', 'grandma Jones
             | writes down her secret butterball recipe' or 'suits need a
             | text, and only text, on paper, quickly".
             | 
             | (Yes, that was snarky. I am still bitter about that
             | document being eaten.)
        
               | einpoklum wrote:
               | > For starters, it still had a closed, binary (read: not
               | friendly to source control) format
               | 
               | Word still has a closed format. It supposedly
               | standardized OOXML, but - it doesn't follow that
               | standard; Microsoft apparently managed to warp the XML
               | standard to accommodate its weirdness; and all sorts of
               | details encoded by MSO in that format are not actually
               | documented.
               | 
               | There also used to be the problem of different renderings
               | on different machines (even if you had all the relevant
               | fonts installed): You opened a document on another
               | person's computer and things were out-of-place, styling
               | and spacing a bit different, page transitions not at same
               | point etc. I don't know if that's the case today.
               | 
               | Granted, though, hangs and crashes and weird gibberish on
               | opening a document are rare today.
        
               | DemocracyFTW2 wrote:
               | > You opened a document on another person's computer and
               | things were out-of-place, styling and spacing a bit
               | different, page transitions not at same point etc.
               | 
               | When this happened to me on my job in the late 90s we
               | were able to locate that problem in the printer driver
               | that was visible in the Word print dialog. I don't
               | remember the details but it looked like Word was
               | adjusting font metrics to the metrics of the specific
               | printer, and all the shifted pixels quickly added up to
               | destroy the finely balanced lines of our print
               | publication (yes, an official public health periodical by
               | a European government was typeset with MS Word, and there
               | was a lot of manual typographical work in each print).
               | Given the technology at the time, it's not clear to me
               | whether Word's behavior was a feature (in the sense of:
               | automatically adjusts to your output device for best
               | results) or a bug (automatically destroys your work
               | without asking or telling you when not in its accustomed
               | environment).
        
               | pjmlp wrote:
               | Case in point, by the time I got at CERN in 2003, most
               | researchers were writing their papers in Word or
               | FrameMaker, with LaTeX lookalike templates.
               | 
               | In two years I hardly met anyone still doing pure LaTeX
               | publications, unless the publishing body only accepted
               | LaTeX as submission format.
        
               | elashri wrote:
               | Currently you will find that LaTeX is the de facto
               | standard at CERN. Maybe only management would not use it.
               | But CERN gives overleaf professional licence to each
               | member. And all templates I have seen for everything I
               | interacted with that is going into publications are
               | LaTeX.
        
               | pjmlp wrote:
               | Well, naturally 20 something years make a difference,
               | although for some others, it looks pretty much the same,
               | as I have visited a few times since then as Alumni.
        
             | ayhanfuat wrote:
             | Latex is not a company's product. That's a substantial
             | difference.
        
               | goku12 wrote:
               | How so? Only their web app seems to be closed source. And
               | the company was created by the two project founders. They
               | also don't seem to be doing a lot more than a community
               | project.
        
               | mr_mitm wrote:
               | Obviously there are differences, but that wasn't the
               | point of my comment. I replied to the claim that latex
               | never needed "marketers". Or did you mean to reply to a
               | different comment?
        
               | ayhanfuat wrote:
               | I meant if there is no company financially benefiting
               | from that activity it is hard to call that marketing. But
               | if there is a company especially if it is backed by VC
               | that is a completely different story.
        
               | mr_mitm wrote:
               | There is no VC with typst, they're bootstrapped. And I
               | think by "marketeers" the original commenter did not mean
               | actual marketing people, but enthusiastic fans. Unless it
               | was a hidden accusation of astroturfing that I didn't
               | get.
        
           | js8 wrote:
           | IMHO, good marketeers for LaTeX were people who wanted to
           | typeset (write nicely) math but were scared of TeX.
        
           | __mharrison__ wrote:
           | When you are the only option marketing doesn't matter.
           | 
           | I would suspect (based on my own experience) is that the
           | reason folks shout "typst!" anytime they hear latex is that
           | the user experience is 1000x better than latex.
        
         | croemer wrote:
         | Typst doesn't (yet) have one of the features that make LaTex
         | stand out: microtypography. See
         | https://github.com/typst/typst/issues/4693
        
           | IshKebab wrote:
           | That's not why people use LaTeX. I doubt most users even know
           | about it. The standout feature is fantastic support for
           | equations and figures.
           | 
           | That and Computer Modern. I bet a significant number of users
           | use it because of that!
           | 
           | Personally I would just use LyX. Its equation editor is
           | actually fantastic.
        
             | croemer wrote:
             | TFA dedicated one of the book's 11 chapters to it. Doesn't
             | matter whether most users know about it or not.
        
               | IshKebab wrote:
               | A feature can only make LaTeX stand out if people
               | actually know it exists.
        
               | croemer wrote:
               | Nope, people don't need to know that something is done to
               | appreciate the outcome. You might not know that modern
               | MacBooks use ARM processors, but you might still
               | appreciate that they have a long battery life.
        
             | billfruit wrote:
             | But latex support for tables are very unergonomic.
        
             | creata wrote:
             | > That's not why people use LaTeX.
             | 
             | Many people say that they use LaTeX because it produces
             | more beautiful output. Microtypography is one of the
             | reasons for that. It's especially noticeable when microtype
             | pushes hyphens or quotes at the end of a line slightly into
             | the margin. (A nearby comment mentions that Typst has this
             | feature, too.)
        
             | naikrovek wrote:
             | Computer Modern is the very last thing I will ever want in
             | a document and is the first thing I change in every LaTeX
             | document I create. It is easily one of the ugliest fonts
             | ever created.
             | 
             | It has a lot of good things going for it, but it is the
             | least attractive font that I think I have ever seen.
        
               | IshKebab wrote:
               | I think it's quite attractive, but its attractiveness
               | isn't really why it's desirable; it's because people know
               | it is the font used by proper fancy scientific papers.
               | It's like the opposite of Comic Sans.
        
           | kzrdude wrote:
           | Typst has some of the microtypography features already built-
           | in and enabled by default, like overhang (character
           | protrusion).
           | 
           | And there's another microtype PR open, by the reporter of the
           | linked issue (nice!)
        
             | croemer wrote:
             | This might be one of the areas where it takes a lot of
             | effort to catch up with LaTex.
             | 
             | The microtype user manual shows how much thought has gone
             | into it: https://mirror.foobar.to/CTAN/macros/latex/contrib
             | /microtype...
        
               | phanimahesh wrote:
               | How is that pdf made interactive? It has options to
               | toggle the behaviour, which work even in an in browser
               | pdf viewer. I did not think PDFs could do that.
        
               | naikrovek wrote:
               | PDFs can do a lot more than show static content. There
               | was one time where Adobe strongly advocated for PDF to be
               | the page format of what would come to be called "The
               | World Wide Web". Where we have HTML now, Adobe wanted
               | PDF. Thankfully that did not happen. But I suspect it
               | would have made more sense technically than [whatever
               | this mess is that we have now.]
               | 
               | A lot of things are possible in PDF.
        
               | kzrdude wrote:
               | Good question. The github url is printed on the first
               | page.
               | 
               | I find some stuff like this.. is it raw pdf directives?
               | Literally an example of something typst can't do right
               | now. I also can't read this.
               | 
               | ``` \def\mt@toggle@sample#1{% \pdfstartlink
               | user{/Subtype/Link /BS << /Type/Border/W 1 /S/D /D[4 1]
               | >> /H/O /C[0.65 0.04 0.07] /Contents(Click to Toggle #1!)
               | %/OC << /Type/OCMD /VE[/Not \csname
               | mt@_compatibility@\endcsname] >> % not honoured by older
               | viewers anyway /A << /S/SetOCGState /State[/Toggle
               | \csname mt@#1@true\endcsname \csname
               | mt@#1@false\endcsname] >>} #1 \hfill\pdfendlink &
               | \mt@layer{#1true}{\rlap{on}}\mt@layer{#1false}{off}} ```
        
           | __mharrison__ wrote:
           | Didn't work with Unicode the last time I checked... Would
           | much rather have Unicode support than microtype.
        
             | maxnoe wrote:
             | I've been using microtype with lualatex, fontspec and
             | Opentype fonts for years.
             | 
             | What doesn't work?
        
               | __mharrison__ wrote:
               | Had to use xelatex (don't remember why currently).
        
         | misnome wrote:
         | "Pricing", "Sign Up"
         | 
         | Ah yes, this definitely is the "Modern" approach.
         | 
         | There does seem to be an open source, non-SAAS part, but
         | information about it looks pretty deliberately buried.
        
           | oytis wrote:
           | To be fair - there is a big "View on Github" button on the
           | very first page
        
           | kzrdude wrote:
           | They are a very small team and this is a known issue - there
           | is a website refresh coming up that will fix it
           | 
           | They developed the main face of the product first - the
           | online webapp which has live collaboration - which sounds
           | like a sane choice for a new company.
        
             | red_trumpet wrote:
             | > sounds like a sane choice for a new company.
             | 
             | It does, but this is actually part of the critique. Typst
             | is developed by a company, while LaTeX is not.
        
               | oytis wrote:
               | Yeah, today's open source combines the worst from
               | corporate jobs and social media. Typst looks nice though,
               | but is indeed developed in a logic of a business
        
           | kaoD wrote:
           | Well everyone likes free software (as in freedom and beer)
           | but 0 of you pay, while on a 6 figure salary. Meanwhile no
           | hesitation to pay AWS, Netflix, Amazon, etc. all of them net
           | negative contributors to free software.
           | 
           | So... yeah.
        
             | pietro72ohboy wrote:
             | Absolutely agree! Money only becomes an issue when someone
             | asks for it politely. And then people ask why such efforts
             | and projects die in the shadows.
        
             | pbasista wrote:
             | > 0 of you pay
             | 
             | That is an overly broad generalization.
             | 
             | > no hesitation to pay AWS, Netflix, Amazon, etc.
             | 
             | Again, an overly broad generalization.
             | 
             | I am unsure what kind of conclusion you can objectively
             | make out of such generic statements.
        
           | goku12 wrote:
           | Almost all of typst, except their web app, is available on
           | crates.io and from many Linux distribution repositories. And
           | you can skip the web app if you don't prefer it. There's no
           | loss of functionality.
        
           | __mharrison__ wrote:
           | I find today much easier to contribute to (in the open source
           | sense) than latex. Go to the GitHub and interact with the
           | developers. Who happen to be very responsive.
           | 
           | I used latex for 20+ years and don't know how to file a bug
           | for latex. Do I do it for xelatex, latex? Where? How do I
           | update things? Download 4 gigs? Where's to documentation?
           | Where's a book that explains how to contribute to latex?
           | These are some of the issues I've dealt with and am happy to
           | never have to again.
        
         | cjs_ac wrote:
         | For all the well-deserved complaints about TeX's and LaTeX's
         | syntax, Typst only makes this _worse_ , by repurposing even
         | _more_ characters as markup.
        
           | blueflow wrote:
           | I'll put my finger on the perceived weak point: _Which
           | characters_? Are they listed somewhere?
        
             | cjs_ac wrote:
             | Sure: the Typst syntax is detailed here:
             | https://typst.app/docs/reference/syntax/
             | 
             | The non-control characters of ASCII are largely characters
             | you might actually want to put in a document. TeX uses some
             | of these as markup, e.g., the dollar sign to bracket maths
             | mode and the ampersand as a column separator in tables.
             | Typst takes this much further, using plus and minus signs
             | to introduce list items, at signs for references, and so
             | on.
             | 
             | Ideally, all visible characters should produce themselves
             | in the printed output, except for the backslash introducing
             | control sequences that represent all of the markup and
             | braces for delimiting the extent of parameters to those
             | control sequences. This would produce a very predictable
             | and easily-parsed syntax.
        
           | SkiFire13 wrote:
           | I don't think this was ever my issue with Latex, which
           | instead are mostly:
           | 
           | - the cryptic error messages and infinite logs
           | 
           | - the unintuitive ways to do stuff like store a value for
           | later use or sum two lengths
           | 
           | - the very long compile times
           | 
           | - the amount of reliance on global state from various
           | packages, which contributes to even more cryptic errors or
           | weird behavior when something goes wrong
           | 
           | - various other quirks, e.g. the fact you often need to end a
           | line with a comment or the newline will skrew up your
           | content.
        
             | creata wrote:
             | I could deal with all of the other issues if it weren't for
             | the absurdly long compile times. I wonder where most of
             | that time is spent.
        
               | leephillips wrote:
               | Some is spent on optimizing the results on the paragraph,
               | page, and multi-page level: river elimination, color
               | balance, widow and orphan elimination, etc. I don't know
               | how much of this Typst does; certainly HTML + CSS does
               | none of it.
        
             | __mharrison__ wrote:
             | You forgot the of syntax that is latex. Very hard to read.
             | (Worked with it for 20 years)
             | 
             | Typst on the other hand is inherently readable.
        
         | billfruit wrote:
         | Asciidoc is also a good alternative.
         | 
         | Are people looking seriously at shortcomings of latex and moved
         | towards modern replacements?
         | 
         | Major problems include:
         | 
         | - Tables are a huge pain.
         | 
         | - Customized formatting like chapter headings, footers, etc is
         | painful.
         | 
         | - Latex as a language somehow felt like it was having issues
         | with composability of functions, the details of the problem
         | eludes me now, but it was something like if you have a function
         | to make text bold, and if you have another function to make it
         | italic, then if apply one to the output of another, it should
         | give you bold and italic, but such composability was not
         | happening for a some functions.
         | 
         | -Mixing of physical and logical formatting.
         | 
         | -Lot of fine tuning require to get passable final output.
        
           | IshKebab wrote:
           | Asciidoc is decent for things like technical specifications,
           | but there's no way I'd use it for scientific or mathematical
           | papers.
        
         | wewxjfq wrote:
         | It seems to have a bus factor of 1.
        
         | billfruit wrote:
         | Does it have better/easier tables. Does it support complex
         | tables like with images in it, with alternating horizontal or
         | vertical text in cells, tables inside tables, tables with
         | alternative row/column shading, etc while still supporting
         | automatic wrapping to contents, etc?
        
           | mr_mitm wrote:
           | Yes
           | 
           | https://typst.app/docs/reference/model/table/
           | 
           | https://typst.app/docs/guides/table-guide/
        
         | Arrowmaster wrote:
         | I recall a recent criticism of Typst being that it doesn't
         | strip unused glyphs from fonts when making PDFs so they end up
         | excessively large compared to other solutions. Has there been
         | any change to that?
        
         | matthewdgreen wrote:
         | I live in fear that one of the major typesetting services like
         | Overleaf will convince people to move away from a very durable
         | standard and adopt something that's much more change-oriented.
         | Then we'll all have to learn not one, but _two_ standards.
         | Rinse repeat.
        
       | iNic wrote:
       | I recommend people check out typst: https://typst.app/
        
       | qiu3344 wrote:
       | LaTeX is quite underrated these days. Even though alternatives
       | like Typst are popping up, LaTeX is also pretty convenient and
       | powerful if you get past the crude syntax and obscure compilation
       | errors. I sill remember my disbelieve when I found out that I can
       | change my article into a presentation just by changing the
       | document class to "beamer".
       | 
       | These days I usually default to pandoc's markdown, mostly because
       | the raw text is very readable.
        
         | JohnKemeny wrote:
         | I wouldn't say underrated. Literally every single research
         | article in maths and cs, every PhD dissertation and master
         | thesis in these fields too, are written in LaTeX.
         | 
         | Most students, and many researchers use Overleaf nowadays,
         | though.
        
           | Gualdrapo wrote:
           | > I wouldn't say underrated. Literally every single research
           | article in maths and cs, every PhD dissertation and master
           | thesis in these fields too, are written in LaTeX.
           | 
           | Usage level is not correlated to "rate". Sometimes people use
           | stuff because they have to, not only because they like it.
           | See the Microsoft Word case.
           | 
           | I'd agree that LaTeX has fell a bit in popularity this days
           | against Typst - but not much in its usage. It is still the
           | _de facto_ standard of scientific and technical document
           | typesetting.
        
             | JohnKemeny wrote:
             | I've never met anyone who's used Typst, I've only ever
             | heard it on HN. And I meet a lot of researchers, teachers,
             | and students.
             | 
             | Perhaps it's a programmer thing.
        
               | goku12 wrote:
               | One reason is that many journals supply LaTeX templates.
               | And I find them easier to apply compared to their Word
               | templates. I wonder how much support Typst has from these
               | publishers, considering its relatively young age.
        
         | mr_mitm wrote:
         | > I can change my article into a presentation just by changing
         | the document class to "beamer".
         | 
         | Don't you need to insert tons of `frame` environments to get
         | anything worth looking at?
        
         | fsh wrote:
         | Please nobody actually do this. Good presentation slides have
         | almost zero overlap with the corresponding article since they
         | serve completely different purposes. In my field, seeing beamer
         | slides is a huge red flag for an imminent terrible
         | presentation. Slides are an extremely visual medium, and
         | WYSIWYM is a huge hindrance for designing appealing slides.
        
           | jraph wrote:
           | > WYSIWYM is a huge hindrance for designing appealing slides.
           | 
           | I don't know, if your slides are just a few keywords in a few
           | bullet points and the occasional picture / diagram, WYSIWYM
           | is great.
           | 
           | I agree that you shouldn't turn an actual article into a
           | presentation though.
        
           | mgaunard wrote:
           | Good slides is about good diagrams.
           | 
           | LaTeX has all the tooling to write high-quality ones.
        
             | fsh wrote:
             | I disagree. LaTeX is very good at layouting test, and can
             | also (reluctantly) put figures into the text. Anything else
             | is a huge hack (like TikZ), and one constantly runs into
             | crazy limitations such as the fixed-point math and the lack
             | of a decent visual editor. Slides should never have
             | paragraphs of text on them, so the layouting is not very
             | useful, but the other limitations are very annoying.
        
               | goku12 wrote:
               | TikZ and Asymptote are more or less the only general-
               | purpose modular illustration markup languages we have
               | around. Anything better is welcome, but graphical editors
               | are not an alternative in some cases.
        
         | thangalin wrote:
         | > LaTeX is also pretty convenient and powerful ... pandoc's
         | markdown
         | 
         | Have you considered writing pandoc-style Markdown that's
         | converted to TeX for typesetting? If not, have a peek at my
         | text editor:
         | 
         | * https://keenwrite.com/screenshots.html
         | 
         | * https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLB-
         | WIt1cZYLm1MMx2FBG9... (see tutorials 4 and 9)
         | 
         | KeenWrite basically transforms Markdown -> X(HT)ML -> TeX ->
         | PDF, although it uses ConTeXt instead of LaTeX for typesetting
         | because ConTeXt makes separating content from presentation a
         | lot easier.
        
       | aquafox wrote:
       | Don't get me wrong, I love LaTeX, having written my PhD thesis in
       | it. But with the current tools, I would use Quarto instead. It's
       | much easier, you can still "inject" LaTeX and it's quicker for
       | less technical collaborators to adapt.
        
         | enriquto wrote:
         | $ sudo apt install quarto         E: Unable to locate package
         | quarto
         | 
         | yeah, hard pass
        
           | goku12 wrote:
           | I don't know anything about quarto, but you're missing a lot
           | of useful software if you're limiting yourself to the distro
           | repo - especially Debian stable.
        
             | enriquto wrote:
             | As a matter of principle, i prefer to use really stable
             | software that does not change wantonly, and whose authors
             | took the care to put it into debian.
             | 
             | My 20 year-old .tex documents still compile today. Will the
             | same happen with quarto? (or typst, for that matter?) The
             | fact that they offer no packages in the debian standard
             | distribution signals they have likely succumbed to the
             | awful trend of version churning, where you _need_ to use
             | the last version of the software or else. Thus, probably,
             | in 20 years my documents will be un-compilable. For legacy
             | things like typeset documents, it 's reasonable to prefer
             | legacy solutions like latex.
             | 
             | Once quarto and typst have stabilized enough to appear in
             | debian stable, I'll consider them as viable alternatives.
        
               | immibis wrote:
               | FWIW software gets in Debian because of Debian, not
               | because of the authors of the software.
        
           | tecleandor wrote:
           | They have a deb package (if you really wanted to install it)
           | 
           | https://github.com/quarto-dev/quarto-cli/releases/tag/v1.8.1
        
       | BlackFly wrote:
       | I always wonder why people compare Latex with word and not with
       | the single most popular document markup (especially here): HTML +
       | css + javascript.
       | 
       | The problems are quite similar, "How do I center a div?" vs "How
       | do I keep this float on this page?" Has latex really modernized?
       | I don't hear a lot about new layouts or style mechanisms.
       | 
       | Most people are probably reading articles online these days,
       | although there is a lot to be said about printing an article to
       | read. It seems to me that adding responsiveness to journal
       | articles instead of using a fixed paper layout regardless of
       | media might be a good improvement for many readers in many
       | situations.
        
         | JackeJR wrote:
         | There are many reasons this comparison is not made. I will just
         | touch on one. The target medium is different. For html, you
         | have monitors of different sizes as well as windows that can be
         | resized. For latex, you choose your target at the start: A4
         | paper? Screen presentation? A0 poster?
         | 
         | With a fixed medium in mind, you can be extremely particular on
         | where on this canvas you want a piece of text/graphic or
         | whatever.
         | 
         | Without a fixed medium, you have to have logic to address the
         | different mediums and compromises have to be made.
        
           | karencarits wrote:
           | > For latex, you choose your target at the start
           | 
           | Yes, sometimes, but I would say that one of the benefits of
           | latex is how easy you can switch to another layout. But I
           | guess the point is that you typically render to a set of
           | outputs with fixed dimensions (pdf)
        
           | chabska wrote:
           | HTML+CSS has facilities to target a page format (CSS @page
           | rule, cm and in dimension units). Not to say that it's on the
           | same level as LaTeX, but it's pretty impressive by its own
           | right.
        
             | maegul wrote:
             | Are there good deep dives on how far you can practically
             | this? Especially in combination with headless browser pdf
             | generation?
             | 
             | Last time I looked into it, a while ago, my impression was
             | that it would get rickety too soon. It'd be a good place to
             | be, I think, if web and "document" tech stacks could have
             | nice and practical convergence.
        
               | p4bl0 wrote:
               | I'd say it's already there. See for example the
               | https://pagedjs.org/ project which allows advanced
               | typesetting (including for printing) using web
               | technologies. It is already used in production by at
               | least one book publisher (C&F editions)
        
               | throwanem wrote:
               | I've used it for my own such production, perfect binding
               | with a hand guillotine and screw clamps in my attic -
               | nothing remotely professional, but you still have to
               | start by making a book block, and Paged.js is a solid
               | call there. Unless beauty of typography (more than
               | TTF/OTF hinting can handle) is of particular merit, it's
               | usually my preferred first typesetting option.
               | 
               | As an old hand with PDF-in-browser production, I expected
               | _much_ worse of Paged.js than I found. It 's powerful and
               | mostly enjoyable to use! Oh, you end up with a large set
               | of CSS rules, and it is not without bugs and gotchas
               | (failing to specify a bleed rule somewhere at least once
               | in every @page context subtly breaks layout; footnote
               | layout is functional but automatic call numbering isn't
               | always perfect, etc.)
               | 
               | You should definitely not expect to take Paged.js out of
               | the box, slap a theme on it, and go; it comes as a box of
               | parts with a _mostly_ complete machine inside, and if it
               | breaks you get to keep all the pieces. I imagine the
               | publisher who uses it must have some prior interest in
               | web technologies, for example.
               | 
               | Nor is Paged.js remotely as capable or flexible as
               | InDesign or a comparable tool, especially for the deeply
               | rudimentary condition of web typography overall -
               | something even as elaborate a tool as this can't really
               | approach fixing.
               | 
               | But Paged.js is also unlike InDesign in having a _much_
               | shallower (days vs months) learning curve for folks like
               | us with prior web experience, and however equivocal a
               | review I may now be giving of its technical merits, I do
               | actually like working with Paged.js quite a lot.
        
               | jsmith99 wrote:
               | I've also used pagedjs for a relatively complex booklet
               | with bidirectional text in different languages, images
               | and long footnotes. The result was great but there were
               | some annoying bugs, some of them seeming to be possible
               | underlying bugs in chrome and Firefox. Still, latex would
               | have been even more frustrating.
        
               | throwanem wrote:
               | Oh, I certainly don't doubt _that._ And as I said, I
               | haven 't really found Paged.js all that frustrating! I
               | have extensive though not recent Pagemaker experience; I
               | expected InDesign to be _easier,_ and now I rue the day
               | when that 's where I'm forced to resort.
               | 
               | In my experience Paged.js is at its best when building to
               | PDF, but then that's always my intermediate format when
               | working to paper, because that's where PDF's
               | inflexibility shines. The source of a book block,
               | everything that builds to that PDF, partakes of all the
               | infelicities of the JS ecosystem. But to remake the book
               | itself again, all I need do to start is print the PDF.
        
               | minifyre wrote:
               | Coincidentally, I've also used pagedjs for a project
               | recently (125K novel) and encountered some bugs/minor
               | issues. Overall though, I would say I had an immensely
               | positive experience (because even when stuff broke, it
               | was still just HTML, CSS, and JS--so I, like any other
               | web developer, could fix it).
               | 
               | That said, it's a shame that the relevant W3C specs (see
               | https://pagedjs.org/about/) still aren't fully supported
               | by browsers (but perhaps such is the fate of niche
               | features), but with that being the case, I'm infinitely
               | thankful that pagedjs exists as a polyfill.
        
               | Semaphor wrote:
               | We use CSS paged media to create e-books and invoices
               | (using weasyprint [0]). One of the most helpful resources
               | for me was print-css.rocks [1], they cover a lot of
               | what's possible and include which tools support which
               | parts of it (tools targeting paged media, browser support
               | is essentially non-existent and outside using JS to fake
               | it with paged.js, not relevant). The expensive tools tend
               | to support more features, but thanks to some
               | donations/sponsorships, weasyprint has really caught up
               | and now supports a very large part of the spec.
               | 
               | > Especially in combination with headless browser pdf
               | generation
               | 
               | I have no idea why you'd want to do that. Browsers are
               | bad at it, dedicated tools are great at it.
               | 
               | [0]: https://weasyprint.org/
               | 
               | [1]: https://print-css.rocks/
               | 
               | [2]: https://pagedjs.org/
        
               | maegul wrote:
               | > I have no idea why you'd want to do that. Browsers are
               | bad at it, dedicated tools are great at it.
               | 
               | Fair! I was just aspiring to a place where web pages and
               | documents converge more.
               | 
               | Thanks for the recommendations!
        
             | SkiFire13 wrote:
             | Note that this won't prevent the page from being displayed
             | in other sizes, where it will most likely have a broken
             | layout instead.
        
           | eru wrote:
           | > For latex, you choose your target at the start: A4 paper?
           | Screen presentation? A0 poster?
           | 
           | You can change that as you go along.
        
             | naikrovek wrote:
             | > You can change that as you go along.
             | 
             | that's not the point they were trying to make. you may need
             | to change the display target _for every viewer_.
        
           | SebastianKra wrote:
           | That seems contradictory, when Latex is rather famously
           | imprecise at placing figures and such. Weren't both languages
           | (at least at some point) intended to take layouting control
           | away from the writer?
           | 
           | But regardless, I think that, in addition to moving away from
           | Latex we should also reconsider the primary output format.
           | Documents are rarely printed anymore, and inaccessible,
           | fixed-size A4 pdfs are annoying to read on anything but an
           | iPad Pro.
        
         | KeplerBoy wrote:
         | Because HTML is not an option. For academic papers you usually
         | have to submit pdfs conforming to either a latex or word
         | template.
        
           | flanked-evergl wrote:
           | Academic publishing standards are about as much of a joke as
           | academia itself.
        
         | josephg wrote:
         | Its the same reason that Markdown became popular. I want my
         | document to primarily contain content. Not a sea of handwritten
         | tags.
         | 
         | I don't want to manually type (or read past) HTML tags littered
         | around the place. I don't want to manually put <p> tags on my
         | text, or worry about how indentation will affect my rendered
         | output. (For example, <p>foo</p> and <p> foo </p> render
         | differently).
         | 
         | If I'm writing a blog post, I also don't want my post's text to
         | get mixed up with site specific stuff, like meta tags and
         | layout elements.
         | 
         | Are there any good "literate HTML" type tools which first and
         | foremost let me type text, but still let me break into HTML?
         | That I could get behind.
        
           | tannhaeuser wrote:
           | SGML (ISO 8879) has basically all these things: it infers
           | tags (such as for opening paragraphs as in your example, but
           | also infers missing html, head, and body tags, and also
           | infers end-element tags for paragraphs, etc etc), has a
           | built-in mechanism for recognizing custom tokens and turn
           | those into tags to implement markdown and custom syntaxes,
           | provides text macros, and many, many more things (including
           | stylesheets, transformations for things such as table of
           | content generation and search result views).
           | 
           | In other words, SGML is complementing the HTML vocabulary
           | with authoring affordances, as originally intended (HTML is
           | based on it).
        
         | einpoklum wrote:
         | > I always wonder why people compare Latex with word and not
         | with... HTML...
         | 
         | At the very least, because those are the two popular software
         | systems used for creating documents. HTML+CSS isn't; and
         | Javascript is irrelevant for print.
        
         | SkiFire13 wrote:
         | There was an article on this semirecently that compared among
         | other things HTML and Latex for typesetting.
         | https://blog.ppresume.com/posts/on-typesetting-engines
        
         | kzrdude wrote:
         | Is there a microtype (latex package) for the web?
        
       | anta40 wrote:
       | I used LaTeX for writing my undergraduate thesis (> 1 decade
       | ago). Nowadays, unless I write anything involving complicated
       | math expressions or something fancy like Karnaugh map, chessboard
       | diagram etc etc, most likely LaTeX is overkill. Markdown is more
       | than enough.
        
       | iveqy wrote:
       | I'm looking for something that you can embedd in your own
       | application. LaTeX would be great but it's not really nice to
       | have WEB code in your C application. It's also has a bit
       | troublesome license.
        
         | so-rose wrote:
         | `typst` might meet your needs. No, really.
         | 
         | It embeds almost anywhere, including via client-side WASM, and
         | someone even made a nice TypeScript lib [0]. If you dislike
         | `typst`, it even has a package that transpiles LaTeX strings
         | into native typst, which somehow doesn't seem to make `typst`
         | any less fast [1]. WASM plugin magic will do that!
         | 
         | The curious consequence is that the fastest and most portable
         | way to render lightwight LaTeX code might actually be... To
         | transpile LaTeX to embedded `typst`? Sure, sure, not all of
         | LaTeX will map. But from an 80/20 mindset it might just be
         | enough.
         | 
         | - [0] https://github.com/Myriad-Dreamin/typst.ts - [1]
         | https://typst.app/universe/package/mitex/
        
       | WolfOliver wrote:
       | I would love to read some feedback on MonsterWriter. It is my
       | side-project made to make LaTeX accessible for everybody.
        
       | herewulf wrote:
       | I'm finally updating my CV after years of neglect. I'm keen on
       | switching to the route of Org mode -> LaTeX -> PDF.
       | 
       | It's partly because I love the simplicity/power of Org and I do
       | all my writing in it nowadays, the other part is to separate the
       | content from the presentation so I can have the content in two
       | different languages but still end up with the same formatted
       | document for both.
       | 
       | Anyone have experience with this or have favorite LaTeX templates
       | for CVs?
       | 
       | I'm currently experimenting with this:
       | 
       | https://titan-c.gitlab.io/org-cv/
        
         | boerseth wrote:
         | My own experiment involved writing my CV in YAML, and using a
         | Pandoc template to generate .tex and .pdf. I think I may have
         | overcooked the thing a little, but it was good fun.
         | 
         | I never got into emacs. Is Org worth it?
         | 
         | https://github.com/boerseth/cv
        
           | signa11 wrote:
           | it's not too shabby.
        
           | goku12 wrote:
           | Org mode is the swiss army knife of content markup languages.
           | It does a lot more than just content markup. But keep in mind
           | that org-mode, markdown, asciidoc, etc don't afford much
           | control on final layout. They're like plain HTML in function.
           | LaTeX and Typst include more layout control - sort of like
           | HTML with a little bit of CSS. This may not matter if you're
           | preparing something like an article or document. But you may
           | want more layout control for something like a CV.
        
         | ykonstant wrote:
         | My go-to template collection is from Overleaf:
         | https://www.overleaf.com/gallery/tagged/cv
         | 
         | My cv is an adaptation of one of the templates there:
         | https://drive.google.com/file/d/1woxVNcJ4AmT7dD2WEnYr9BHEEY7...
         | 
         | EDIT: ahahahahaha I just came across this cv:
         | https://www.overleaf.com/latex/templates/resume-slash-cv-tem...
        
           | IshKebab wrote:
           | Nice CV. Way too much text but I absolutely love the included
           | diagrams. I think interviewers are probably going to glaze
           | over the text but the diagrams are interesting and they
           | practically beg for questions.
           | 
           | I'm totally stealing that.
        
         | subidit wrote:
         | Take a look at these templates I made a while back
         | https://github.com/subidit/rover-resume
         | 
         | I tried to avoid custom commands and environments to keep it
         | simple. Your content in org text should fit nicely with this.
         | 
         | It also has a template where the preamble is stored in
         | different file such that you can try a different look by just
         | un/commenting a different preamble file.
        
           | n2h4 wrote:
           | i've used rover resume before. thank you!
        
       | watusername wrote:
       | Check out Tectonic which is an all-in-one LaTeX toolchain (single
       | executable w/ engine + build system) that lazily downloads TeX
       | Live (no upfront multi-gig downloads). It's a breath of fresh air
       | in the chaotic LaTeX landscape. Bit of a shame that they opted
       | for XeTeX rather than LuaTeX though.
       | 
       | [0]: https://github.com/tectonic-typesetting/tectonic
        
         | fryktelig wrote:
         | Honest question: why do you prefer lualatex to xetex?
        
           | nanna wrote:
           | You mean XeTeX for LuaLaTeX, I think.
        
             | arthur-st wrote:
             | No, the parent clearly indicates that they consider XeTeX a
             | worse choice than LuaTeX.
        
               | nanna wrote:
               | My mistake, apologies!
        
           | watusername wrote:
           | LuaTeX is the de facto successor of pdfTeX and is basically a
           | more maintained pdfTeX with Unicode support and Lua
           | scripting, whereas XeTeX has its own engine. In practice, it
           | means that LuaTeX "just works" with most documents while with
           | XeTeX you run into all sorts of weird incompatibilities.
           | Fancy packages that make use of Lua scripting (e.g.,
           | graphdrawing) will only work with LuaTeX.
           | 
           | Edit: Looks like it's not de facto anymore, and LuaTeX is now
           | recommended for all documents and XeTeX is being recommended
           | _against_ (https://www.texdev.net/2024/11/05/engine-news-
           | from-the-latex...)
        
             | fryktelig wrote:
             | Thanks! I vaguely remembered getting a bit of mixed
             | messages with regards to the two last year when I was
             | looking into Tectonic. I just read a bit into the github
             | issues and it seems like the Tectonic devs happened to fork
             | Xelatex and not Lualatex. https://github.com/tectonic-
             | typesetting/tectonic/issues/158#...
             | 
             | Anyway, what they made works perfectly for me, I luckily
             | don't use any of the fancy graphics packages that use Lua.
             | I use Latex a few times a year at most, and Tectonic just
             | works for me. With my previous Lualatex workflow I had to
             | deal with Tlmgr and that whole ant's nest, figuring out one
             | by one which packages I was missing each recompile.
             | 
             | Seems like the main argument against Xetex in the article
             | you linked is that it is unmaintainted, so it doesn't
             | really apply to Tectonic, but it's a bit frustrating that
             | an opportunity for ecosystem convergence potentially has
             | been missed.
        
       | agubelu wrote:
       | LaTeX is great. It also sucks. I'm happy to have learned it and
       | I'm happy to never have to use it again.
        
         | goku12 wrote:
         | What's your alternative?
        
           | agubelu wrote:
           | For personal use, maybe Markdown + pandoc, or Typst for more
           | complex stuff. For academical use I don't think there are
           | any, because everything still revolves around LaTeX. But the
           | lack of alternatives doesn't mean LaTeX is pleasant to use.
        
       | cess11 wrote:
       | It's easier and good enough to just use LyX, a graphical document
       | editor with a bunch of backends and templates, and if you really
       | need to do something special you can still drop down to LaTeX and
       | do your own templating.
       | 
       | https://www.lyx.org/
       | 
       | It's published under GPL so relatively protected from corporate
       | nuisances. Takes five minutes to teach someone how to mark
       | headlines, add content listing and change document type, then a
       | little more to teach how to add tables and images.
        
         | wiz21c wrote:
         | and maths shortcuts are really easy
        
       | agoose77 wrote:
       | A shameless plug for the MyST Engine https://mystmd.org/
       | 
       | It's a document engine that ingests Markdown (particularly the
       | MyST superset) and builds upon "structured data" for sharing.
       | 
       | E.g. SciPy's proceedings:
       | https://proceedings.scipy.org/articles/XHDR4700
        
         | pbowyer wrote:
         | Just a note on MyST's citations feature as I was researching it
         | this morning: until this ticket [1] is worked on there's one
         | bibliography style and that's it.
         | 
         | 1. https://github.com/jupyter-book/mystmd/issues/1462
        
       | rochak wrote:
       | I remember having to learn LaTeX to write my research papers.
       | Probably the worst time I've had learning something. As someone
       | who has OCD for making everything consistent, trying to achieve
       | the same in LaTeX made me wanna give up research itself. In fact,
       | now that I think about it, I did give up research due to it.
        
         | goku12 wrote:
         | Wow! Consistency is the reason I took up LaTeX, after suffering
         | a disaster with Word. LaTeX feels dated and isn't flawless, but
         | inconsistency is one complaint that I've never heard about it
         | before.
        
           | rochak wrote:
           | I'd say it is more about how esoteric LaTeX
           | extensions/plugins felt like when I picked it up (I was just
           | getting into the field back then). I am sure that now, after
           | years of experience, I would be more open to give it a shot
           | again. Unfortunately, I am no longer into research anymore. I
           | did have fun converting my LaTeX resume to Typst though.
        
             | goku12 wrote:
             | Using extensions these days is more like searching a
             | software registry (CTAN in this case) for packages and
             | looking up its API documentation. But your last sentence
             | says a lot. The reason why Typst feels so much more
             | ergonomic is that it resembles modern programming and
             | markup languages. They have the advantage of hindsight.
             | LaTeX markup does indeed feel esoteric, no matter how many
             | times you use it. Perhaps it made more sense in its days.
        
       | mgaunard wrote:
       | Why LuaLaTex and not XeLaTex?
        
         | red_trumpet wrote:
         | Latest stable release of xetex was in 2020[1], whereas luatex
         | is actively developed[2].
         | 
         | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XeTeX
         | 
         | [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LuaTeX
        
         | kzrdude wrote:
         | The first document compile example in the posted link (the PDF,
         | the actual document) uses `xelatex`, so why the question?
         | 
         | > Feel free to try lualatex instead--there are a few
         | differences between the two that we will discuss later, but
         | either is fine for now
        
         | WillAdams wrote:
         | One notable reason to prefer lualatex is mplib which allow
         | inclusion of METAPOST graphics directly which is _very_
         | convenient if one uses that tool.
        
       | __mharrison__ wrote:
       | Use typst.
       | 
       | I've migrated all of my latex (book layout and invoicing) usage
       | to typst and couldn't be happier.
        
       | dev_l1x_be wrote:
       | For me Typst replaced Latex years ago.
       | 
       | pros:
       | 
       | - one small compiler that can output: pdf, png, svg, html
       | 
       | - compilation is fast (see below)
       | 
       | - syntax is much cleaner than Latex
       | 
       | - few ways of to a thing
       | 
       | - already has all the templates most people need
       | 
       | - tooling is good enough with VS Code
       | 
       | - supports SVG images
       | 
       | cons:
       | 
       | - less users?                     time typst compile cv.typ
       | ________________________________________________________
       | Executed in  126.21 millis    fish           external
       | usr time   93.66 millis    0.07 millis   93.58 millis
       | sys time   37.97 millis    1.51 millis   36.46 millis
        
         | Al-Khwarizmi wrote:
         | A big con is that there are no typst templates for journals and
         | conferences that academics submit papers to. For me, this is a
         | show-stopper. I would love to be able to ditch latex because
         | honestly it's old and it shows _a lot_ , in spite of apologists
         | saying that it's perfect. But 90+% of my usage starts from a
         | conference or journal template, so at the moment it's not gonna
         | happen.
        
           | tcfhgj wrote:
           | I don't feel like the template itself is the issue. In typst
           | it's quite easy to recreate the templates without being years
           | into typst (according to my experience).
           | 
           | The real problem is acceptance of non-word/latex papers
        
             | Eddy_Viscosity2 wrote:
             | The problem is the user-base and acceptance of latex vs
             | Typst. I use latex and as aware as I am about its
             | deficiencies, I can create a doc faster in it than any
             | other tool that I have not ever used before. I also have a
             | bunch of utilities I created for my specific use-cases
             | automating data into tables, figures, etc, ready for latex
             | import.
             | 
             | So its a mass and momentum problem. Typst not only has to
             | be better/easier/faster than latex, but to a degree that it
             | justifies all of the labor and time to learn it and change
             | all that existing template and utility infrastructure built
             | up over decades. A high bar.
             | 
             | If Typst (or some other new contender) could also read and
             | compile latex code and packages alongside its own syntax
             | then that would be a game-changer. Then I can use all my
             | old stuff and gradually change things over to typst (or
             | whatever).
        
               | __mharrison__ wrote:
               | I used latex for over 20 years.
               | 
               | Typst is a breath of fresh air. Interacting with modern
               | tooling (GitHub, discord). Responsive developers. Easy to
               | read code. Easy to do things on your own.
               | 
               | Admittedly, my use case is mainly writing books, I've
               | never published an academic paper.
        
             | MortyWaves wrote:
             | But I thought one of the points of latex was to emit pdf
             | files? Are you saying these places are so backwards they
             | only accept latex and word files? What stops them being
             | edited by someone?
        
             | rlkf wrote:
             | > The real problem is acceptance of non-word/latex papers
             | 
             | Some scientific journals, which only provides a Word
             | template, require you to print to PDF to submit, then ships
             | this PDF to India, where a team recreates the look of the
             | submission in LaTeX, which is then used to compose the
             | actual journal. I wish this was hyperbole. For these
             | journals, you can safely create a LaTeX-template looking
             | _almost_ the same, and get away with it.
        
           | fastasucan wrote:
           | Have you checked out Quarto? There are a lot of templates
           | supported already, and possible to create out of latex if not
           | (or just generate latex from Quarto).
        
         | stared wrote:
         | Is there any side-by-side comparison of a page created by LaTeX
         | by Typst?
         | 
         | My main selling points is that with LaTeX, it is easy to create
         | typography shines beauty for a distance. (Often way better that
         | most of books you find in stores.) With other typesetting
         | systems, usually it is not the case. Yet, I am waiting for new
         | things that offer simplicity, yet have same (or better!)
         | visuals that LaTeX.
        
           | creata wrote:
           | As far as I know, the main differences (in the body text)
           | between LaTeX and, say, Word, are the linebreaking algorithm
           | (Knuth-Plass, which is used for both ragged-right and
           | justified text) and the microtypography package. Is there
           | anything else that contributes to the quality of LaTeX's
           | output for ordinary English text?
           | 
           | Typst apparently uses Knuth-Plass, but I don't see any
           | information about microtypography.
        
             | stared wrote:
             | From what I see, it is also section breaking, fonts, and
             | general typesetting defaults, such as margins, section, etc
             | (sure, they vary from package to package, and some are
             | ugly, but the default are aesthetically pleasing).
        
               | creata wrote:
               | Oh true, section breaking is also important. And figure
               | placement.
               | 
               | Things like default margins, in my opinion, are a lot
               | easier to fix than these other issues.
        
       | arthur-st wrote:
       | Having experience with digitizing a university textbook in
       | physics by hand, this is a very nice LaTeX guide for everyone
       | interested. One thing worth noting from 2025 perspective that the
       | "default" local setup is most likely going to be VSCode with
       | LaTeX Workshop[1] and LTeX+[2] extensions, and that you should
       | use TeX Live on every platform supported by it (since MiKTeX and
       | friends can lag). Also, use LuaTeX, as it's the officially
       | recommended[3] engine since November 2024.
       | 
       | [1] https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=James-
       | Yu...
       | 
       | [2] https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=ltex-
       | plu...
       | 
       | [3] https://www.texdev.net/2024/11/05/engine-news-from-the-
       | latex...
        
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       (page generated 2025-05-05 23:01 UTC)