[HN Gopher] Burning Mao
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Burning Mao
Author : bookofjoe
Score : 47 points
Date : 2025-05-03 17:19 UTC (5 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (granta.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (granta.com)
| bookofjoe wrote:
| https://archive.ph/1FQlr
| HansardExpert wrote:
| That was a great read. Thanks
| pimlottc wrote:
| Some examples and background on Warhol's series of Mao prints
| here:
|
| https://www.myartbroker.com/artist-andy-warhol/10-facts/10-f...
|
| What a fantastic story.
| christkv wrote:
| I find it fascinating that nobody would think for a second
| hanging a picture of H or Stalin would be acceptable yet one of
| Mao is supposed to be ok.
| readthenotes1 wrote:
| T-shirts of Che...
| io84 wrote:
| I think the point is that Mao is in a very small club of
| individuals deemed responsible for tens of millions of
| deaths. Che is small fry in comparison.
| ashoeafoot wrote:
| Hipocrits with air superiority, the best of indentions does fix
| the idea, though mysteriously implementation after
| implementation goes sour. Almost as if it were tainted with
| failure, but that is impossible . The idea is good, the
| carriers are on the right side of history and everyone else is
| a monster..
| luotuoshangdui wrote:
| Mao is still considered a great leader in China. His portrait
| appears on literally all Chinese banknotes in the current
| series
| (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_series_of_the_renminbi).
| DyslexicAtheist wrote:
| it just underlines GP's point.
|
| Sarah Paine EP 3: How Mao Conquered China (Lecture &
| Interview)
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l3Sa8ImGFQ&t=6325s
| christkv wrote:
| I doubt that is much comfort to the 50+ million victims of
| the failed policies and purges.
| pimlottc wrote:
| The point of the work is to raise that question, among others.
| Is it acceptable? Chairman Mao was a "pop star" in China. Is
| that different than Elvis or Marilyn Monroe in the US? One is
| promoted by a repressive government while the others are
| promoted by capitalist media companies, but is the result all
| that different? Aren't they all "celebrities"?
|
| And does Warhol's treatment celebrate them, or mock them? Is it
| respectful or does it reduce the person into a cartoon, a
| caricature, a meme? Does the very act of mass-producing an
| image elevate the subject's status, regardless of the content?
| rufus_foreman wrote:
| >> Is that different than Elvis or Marilyn Monroe in the US?
|
| How many millions of people's deaths was Marilyn Monroe
| responsible for, as a rough estimate?
| thiagoharry wrote:
| He is the founder of modern China, who ended the century of
| humiliation and restored the country's independence. Yes, it
| was messy. But what the west was doing against the country and
| the previous situation was not better.
| DyslexicAtheist wrote:
| oh no. Pooh, you ate all the propaganda instead of the honey.
|
| > _The systemic media control in authoritarian regimes is
| often inspired by China's propaganda model. China (178th)
| remains the world's largest jail for journalists and
| reentered the bottom trio of the Index, coming just ahead of
| North Korea (179th)._ -- https://rsf.org/en/rsf-world-press-
| freedom-index-2025-econom...
| vaidhy wrote:
| Is it surprising that the places with more conflicts has
| poor reporting ranking (according to this model)?
|
| A media control does not need government to act openly. A
| mind-numbing patriotism can be as effective. Look at US
| reporting on the aftermath of 9/11. How many papers argued
| against Iraq or Afghanistan war? How many papers are
| talking about Gaza now? or even covering hands-off rallies?
| sepositus wrote:
| > Yes, it was messy, but hardly bloodier than what the West
| was doing in the country at the time.
|
| Can you expand on this?
| thiagoharry wrote:
| The country was completely subjulgated by England, was
| sacked by several western powers. See the Opium Wars, the
| unequal treaties, several lands were stolen.
| sepositus wrote:
| Thanks, but I was looking for an explanation of the
| "hardly more bloody" comment. I briefly looked up
| casualties for the things you listed and it's not even
| remotely close to the deaths attribute to Mao.
| thiagoharry wrote:
| I edited the comment. Indeed, by the number of deaths,
| the last great famines surpass the deaths in war and
| occupation.
| wordofx wrote:
| 40m 80m. Does it really matter? It doesn't change the
| fact he starved his country while he lived like a king
| all in the name of making China look better and richer
| than it was. It also doesn't change the fact that it
| wasn't until China opened up and embraced capitalism and
| rolled back Mao policies that it actually grew.
| woooooo wrote:
| Read up on the Boxer Rebellion, then, if you're looking
| for large numbers of casualties.
| neves wrote:
| Sure you know about the most shameful war of all times,
| right?
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars?wprov=sfla1
| sepositus wrote:
| Yes, it was indeed a shameful war. Bloodier though? Not
| from my understanding. Happy to be corrected, though.
| zimza wrote:
| Well, Bush is seen as acceptable too. Or any US - or western -
| leader.
| cooper_ganglia wrote:
| This is satire, surely?
|
| Downplaying the severity of despots like Mao by comparing
| them to democratically elected leaders is incredibly
| disrespectful to the 45,000,000 people that died as a direct
| result of catastrophic and coercive policies.
| vaidhy wrote:
| Why is "democratically elected" so important? Democracies
| can also kill a lot of people. Hitler was democratically
| elected, so is Netanyahu.
|
| If you are so inclined, one was had good intentions, but
| backfired badly while other is explicitly cruel.
| mathgradthrow wrote:
| care to say which you think is which?
| jajko wrote:
| I guess you mean Jr who consumed a lot of coke when young,
| not his late CIA father who was shielding Jr from jail
| numerous times.
|
| Middle east is as it is currently largely to his fuckups and
| made up invasions for reasons barely better than russian
| invasion of Ukraine, and Afghanistan failure is proper second
| Vietnam for US to the last details, just less movies about it
| so far so its largely ignored and people act like it didn't
| happen.
|
| Republicans still uncritically celebrate him, when I dared to
| criticize him even here I got downvoted to hell pretty
| quickly. Yet he is directly responsible for death of millions
| of innocent civilians and indirectly caused ie Isis, not on
| Mao or Stalin level but still.
| cardanome wrote:
| Because the CCP under Mao liberated China from foreign
| oppression.
|
| Now whether you might argue that it was thanks to or rather
| despite Mao being in leadership is another matter and believe
| me I am in the "despite" camp but it still makes sense that he
| would have strong symbolic importance for the Chinese people.
|
| People that will argue "oh he killed millions of people" need
| to get their head out of the cold war propaganda. I do believe
| his economic policy was criminal and was done against the
| advice of Soviet advisors but it is still not murder. His
| policy was idiotic, he was neglectful maybe but he did not
| purposefully cause a famine.
|
| Saying it is the same or even worse are the purposeful, planned
| industrial scale mass murder that Hitler was responsible for
| under the Nazi regime is pure holocaust apologia. Plain and
| simple.
| cooper_ganglia wrote:
| Criticizing Mao is "Holocaust apologia" because killing
| 45,000,000 of his citizenry was just an accident?
|
| More people died then than during the Holocaust. More people
| dying is objectively worse, no matter how you slice it.
| cardanome wrote:
| If I plan out how to kill someone, get the right weapon and
| execute on my plan, yeah that is murder.
|
| If I see a donation stand for children in Africa and decide
| to rather buy a video game from that money, well some
| children are going to starve because of my decision but I
| haven't exactly killed them.
|
| Blaming Mao for a famine is completely insane if you are
| not super brainwashed. He was a human not a god.
|
| But considering you took the highest death toll estimation
| you could find already shows you are not interested in
| facts but in pushing a narrative.
| vaidhy wrote:
| The 5 - 10 million Congolese who died under Belgian rule is
| probably much higher as a percentage of the population than
| the great leap forward.
|
| Great leap forward killed 4% of Chinese population. Vietnam
| war killed 10% - 12% of people in Vietnam. I do not see
| condemnation of US here..Rather, I see the celebration that
| US has a democracy.
| maxglute wrote:
| Mao was broadly successful. Trading 5% of abundant population
| for superstructure of modern Chinese state that subsequent
| leadership snowballed into what PRC is today is frankly a
| bargin. You don't get modern PRC state capacity without Mao
| speedrunning industrialization and cultural heterogeneity.
| Nation building on scale of PRC from the shit state post war
| China is hard. He didn't ace it, but vs developing peers post
| war that spluttered, or the other billion+ country with more
| favourable starting conditions, grading on a curve, Mao gets
| top marks, especially when PRC was playing on extra hard mode
| with US containment.
| jltsiren wrote:
| And many Christian churches prominently display art featuring
| Satan. It's always less about what is actually in the picture
| and more about the message the picture is supposed to send and
| how people actually interpret it.
|
| Hitler and Nazis have been used as comic reliefs in Western
| popular culture. You can supposedly make anything more funny in
| an absurd way by adding some gratuitous Nazis. Communist
| leaders such as Stalin and Mao are often used ironically.
| Sometimes because people find the socialist realism art style
| aesthetically pleasing, and sometimes due to the irony of
| turning a communist leader into commercial art.
| maxglute wrote:
| I always wonder the process of deciding which portrait to for
| famous people. There's much better more photogenic (younger +
| lushes locks) of Mao and other leaders of when they were
| politically active.
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