[HN Gopher] We know a little more about Amazon's satellites
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       We know a little more about Amazon's satellites
        
       Author : pseudolus
       Score  : 79 points
       Date   : 2025-05-03 09:37 UTC (13 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (arstechnica.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (arstechnica.com)
        
       | 9dev wrote:
       | The video of the satellite release looks really eerie; it's got
       | something biological to it, like an insect releasing its pods.
        
         | thinkingemote wrote:
         | video: https://www.linkedin.com/posts/rajeev-
         | badyal-807b3233_were-j...
        
         | ghaff wrote:
         | To a first approximation, no one is going to forgo better
         | Internet for whatever definition of better because they don't
         | like some billionaire's politics or behavior.
        
       | perihelions wrote:
       | The sibling story has further details,
       | 
       | https://arstechnica.com/space/2025/04/a-rocket-launch-monday... (
       | _" A rocket launch Monday night may finally jump-start Amazon's
       | answer to Starlink"_)
        
         | ks2048 wrote:
         | Interesting bit towards the end: they need the FCC to extend
         | their "network authorization". And the FCC is of course now
         | headed by a Musk/Trump ally.
        
           | ralfd wrote:
           | I dont expect there to be any problems for an extension. Carr
           | is a market friendly pragmatist and Jeff Bezos is friendly
           | towards Trump.
           | 
           | Musks influence into space seems limited, he couldnt prevent
           | proposed budget cuts to NASA (and NASA is SpaceX biggest
           | customer).
        
       | croes wrote:
       | So more satellites to block the view for astronomers.
        
         | tgsovlerkhgsel wrote:
         | Progress tends to have downsides. Highways and rail tracks
         | destroy the environment and make areas hard to cross, but I
         | think most people would acknowledge that on balance, having
         | them them is a good thing.
         | 
         | In this case, the obvious solution would be to provide a small
         | number of orbital observatories to the astronomy community for
         | free or with heavily subsidized pricing.
        
           | croes wrote:
           | You could turn that around.
           | 
           | Progress in Earth bound astronomy has the downside of less
           | satellite internet.
        
             | nkrisc wrote:
             | I'm fairly certain that Earth-based astronomy predates
             | artificial satellites by at least a few years.
        
               | croes wrote:
               | And since then there was no progress?
               | 
               | We can build better, bigger and more sensible telescopes
               | but we can hardly use those new capabilities if they are
               | impaired by satellites.
               | 
               | Space telescopes are expensive and harder to maintain.
        
           | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
           | What progress? I gain nothing from this. I have symmetrical
           | cheap reliable fiber to my house.
        
             | dboreham wrote:
             | I don't, so there's that.
        
             | lxgr wrote:
             | You call that progress? I gain next to nothing from cheap
             | reliable fiber being available at your house either.
        
             | 93po wrote:
             | this reads really strongly as satire to the point i can't
             | believe it's authentic.
             | 
             | hacker news poster says "my cheap fiber is working just
             | fine, why does anyone need satellite internet", completely
             | ignoring the literally billion people who can't access the
             | internet reliably at all due to infrastructure failures
        
               | 2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote:
               | My point was only that progress isn't so black and white.
               | Oil drilling is progress too!
        
           | timewizard wrote:
           | > but I think most people would acknowledge that on balance,
           | having them them is a good thing.
           | 
           | Of course it is. The next question is "is it a good thing to
           | let a single owner completely control access to this
           | resource?"
           | 
           | We've actually decided in the case of highways and rails,
           | that no, it's not. There needs to be reasonable and non-
           | discriminatory access to these resources otherwise the trade
           | is not worthwhile. We actually have laws that are meant to
           | enforce this.
           | 
           | > the obvious solution would be to provide a small number of
           | orbital observatories to the astronomy community for free or
           | with heavily subsidized pricing.
           | 
           | Define the "astronomy community." Do we do first come first
           | served or do we have a priority list? How do we handle
           | disputes? Is it just US citizens or do we need to offer this
           | to the entire world? What if the vendor fails to make good on
           | their concessions? What sort of penalties should surround
           | this system?
           | 
           | There's really nothing "obvious" about this.
        
           | thrance wrote:
           | Building a highways is not necessarily "progress". We really
           | ought to stop calling "progress" the destruction of a natural
           | habitat that we will never be able to rebuild, for the
           | construction of a superflous road that will close in 15 years
           | because of poor traffic anyway.
        
         | 93po wrote:
         | this is such a weird talking about that basically any real
         | astronomer doesn't really care about, at all. it just comes
         | across as "let's find any way to criticize elon possible" or
         | "let's write clickbait based on a couple of terminally online
         | comments on twitter". satellites are not blocking views, and
         | astronomers are overwhelmingly in support of a healthy space
         | industry, which includes satellite launches. the cutting edge
         | of astronomy relies on satellites, it would be weird to be
         | against them
        
         | mrshadowgoose wrote:
         | I am entirely convinced that absent LEO comsat constellations,
         | people who espouse this sentiment would likely be whining about
         | "useless astronomy taking money away from helping poor people".
         | 
         | If you genuinely care about the field of astronomy, rest
         | assured that the same falling launch costs that have enabled
         | LEO comsat constellations, will enable the launch of fleets of
         | space-based telescopes.
        
           | timewizard wrote:
           | > fleets of space-based telescopes.
           | 
           | Isn't one of the nice aspects of astronomy is that you can do
           | quite a bit as an amateur with some decent equipment and a
           | nice vantage point? What value does this fleet have to these
           | people?
           | 
           | > people who espouse this sentiment would likely be whining
           | about "useless astronomy taking money away from helping poor
           | people".
           | 
           | You've constructed a strawman for the purposes of
           | gatekeeping; meanwhile, there very much is a reason to have a
           | rational conversation about the trade offs of these large
           | commercial ventures that impact literally the entire planet.
        
             | mrshadowgoose wrote:
             | > Isn't one of the nice aspects of astronomy is that you
             | can do quite a bit as an amateur with some decent equipment
             | and a nice vantage point? What value does this fleet have
             | to these people?
             | 
             | It doesn't, and admittedly I don't really care that much.
             | 
             | I care far far more that remote communities can now have
             | meaningful access to the internet, one of the most
             | transformative and enabling technologies in existence, than
             | niche hobbyists being mildly encumbered. And most people
             | likely fall into the same camp.
             | 
             | As already mentioned, I find it really hard to believe that
             | the common person whining about "the poor amateur
             | astronomers" are being sincere. Some of them likely are,
             | but "finding any reason possible to whine about
             | billionaires" seems to be vogue these days.
        
               | timewizard wrote:
               | > I care far far more that remote communities can now
               | have meaningful access to the internet
               | 
               | Then can you tell me how many remote communities were not
               | being served before that are now suddenly capable of
               | accessing the internet now that these particular
               | constellations exist? I mean just looking at Starlink's
               | current availability map shows how little you might
               | actually care about this particular outcome.
               | 
               | Even so was this the most affordable and sustainable
               | option for these countries? Was there absolutely no way
               | to achieve both goals at once?
               | 
               | > I don't really care that much.
               | 
               | Noted. We're just picking sides today, I guess. Bummer.
        
             | IshKebab wrote:
             | You can still do that.
        
           | croes wrote:
           | Space based telescopes have limits Earth bound telescopes
           | don't have and they are easier to maintain
        
             | mrshadowgoose wrote:
             | Yes, I am quite aware that the current generation of space-
             | based telescopes are quite limited. And it's solely due to
             | the historically extreme cost of mass to orbit.
             | 
             | The largest proposed ground observatories already use
             | segmented mirrors. One can use the same approach in space,
             | it's only a matter of launch cost.
        
       | ks2048 wrote:
       | I wonder how competition will play out against StarLink. People
       | just choose which billionaire they like better?
        
         | gus_massa wrote:
         | Nah, people will chose on price, reliability, price, speed,
         | price and free gigas.
        
           | ceejayoz wrote:
           | Ah, yes. A low barrier to entry market with many competitors,
           | like ISPs, cell phone companies, etc.
           | 
           | Uh oh.
        
             | IncreasePosts wrote:
             | Well, there will be at least two, and people will have
             | terrestrial options as well.
        
           | thrance wrote:
           | The myth of the rational consumer again, of _homo
           | economicus_.
        
       | tgsovlerkhgsel wrote:
       | I wonder what "earth observation" opportunities there would be
       | with such megaconstellations, from simply having a camera with a
       | telephoto lens pointed down to a giant, sky-spanning Synthetic
       | Aperture Radar utilizing multiple satellites.
       | 
       | Anything like that would explain the secrecy...
        
         | jvanderbot wrote:
         | Probably few. The US has excellent observers and comms sats by
         | the dozens are not very big. It's true you can get some photos
         | but the kind you're thinking of, where you can track vehicles
         | in a meaningful way or something, has to be done by something
         | closer to the hubble telescope (pointed backwards).
        
           | tgsovlerkhgsel wrote:
           | Even if it would just deliver 1 or even just 10 meter
           | resolution, I would imagine the high revisit frequency would
           | make it commercially valuable, and potentially also provide
           | some value to military/intelligence groups because it would
           | make it harder to hide activity through careful timing and
           | the data would come with fewer secrecy requirements.
           | 
           | And I have no clue what is doable with SAR, but I'd imagine
           | multiple satellites following each other would enable some
           | interesting features, as it essentially gives you a giant
           | antenna.
        
             | jvanderbot wrote:
             | Other companies do this already, and better. E.g. Planet.
        
         | perihelions wrote:
         | The observation _cadence_ could be game-changing. Instead of
         | once-, twice- daily revisit times, in principle you could
         | contemplate _continuous_ observation, of large parts of the
         | Earth, from LEO, with enough downstream bandwidth to make
         | interesting use of all that data.
        
           | entropie wrote:
           | Ive seen a video around 2005 about USA spy satellites/drones
           | where they kind of disclosured what was possible at this
           | time. Having a very wide area with realtime object/person
           | tracking and multiple terrabytes of data every minute while
           | beeing able to go back in time with all this features.
           | 
           | This all was like 20 years go. 20. 20!!
           | 
           | Than I see my upper consumer grade canon camera, a r6mkII
           | with 70-200mm lens (mk1, 20 years old) that is able to make a
           | photo of some dog in high speed motion, with a 1/800 shutter
           | with 200mm while its dawn and you are still perfectly able to
           | zoom into the photo and see and identify a midget [1]
           | 
           | 1: https://i.imgur.com/9eE1zKe.png
        
             | tgsovlerkhgsel wrote:
             | Sounds like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARGUS-IS
        
             | SEJeff wrote:
             | They've done similar things with hundreds of cell phone
             | cameras and digital techniques to piece it all together.
             | 
             | The prototype was called Gorgon Stare[1] and could surveil
             | an entire city at once.
             | 
             | [1] https://www.sncorp.com/capabilities/wide-area-motion-
             | imagery...
        
         | Perceval wrote:
         | There are already commercial constellations on orbit doing EO
         | and SAR: Planet Labs, Capella, IceEYE, Umbra, Maxar, and more.
        
         | bitmasher9 wrote:
         | It's a 450km orbit. Cameras are good, but you'd need quite a
         | bit of mass per satellite to identify anything of interest that
         | isn't already covered by other satellites. At a certain point
         | photography becomes more a matter of optics (using lens to
         | collect light) than anything else.
        
         | wmf wrote:
         | Apparently you can't hide from Starshield so I'm guessing it's
         | pretty good. https://arstechnica.com/science/2024/11/nro-chief-
         | you-cant-h...
        
       | greatgib wrote:
       | The space around us will become such a junkyard with all these
       | big corps competing to put thousands of sats at the same orbit
       | all around us
        
         | eastbound wrote:
         | It's not big corps. Interns. Student projects. I make software
         | typically used in the space industry and our customers are
         | surprisingly small, just s dozen people each time. Startups,
         | half of them funded by the EU startup funds.
         | 
         | The kilogram in orbit is supposed to go down to $1000, and
         | everyone's joking that it becomes affordable to send a turd to
         | space "for the lulz". It's literally the case.
         | 
         | Ariane 5G is already down to 10k$/kg, Falcon 9 is at 6500k$,
         | pricing on https://www.spacex.com/rideshare/ and you can
         | literally click "Buy" and enter your credit card number.
        
           | daymanstep wrote:
           | I see a minimum price of $325k
           | 
           | I don't think a student is going to be able to afford that
           | any time soon
        
             | xmcqdpt2 wrote:
             | I think it's cheaper for student groups. If you google
             | "student club sends satellite" you get a bunch of examples,
             | 
             | https://globalnews.ca/news/9818771/university-of-
             | saskatchewa...
             | 
             | https://news.northeastern.edu/2024/09/16/satellite-
             | developme...
             | 
             | https://www.utoronto.ca/news/launch-its-first-satellite-
             | stud...
             | 
             | etc
        
               | syedkarim wrote:
               | SpaceX isn't providing a discount to student groups. The
               | program, Cubesat Launch Initiative, is funded by NASA and
               | covers the cost of launch and integration into the
               | deployer.
        
             | eastbound wrote:
             | 325k$ is for 50kg. Yes it's the minimum for this program.
             | The students I had were programming the 10cm^3 satellites,
             | I don't have more details than this cursory explanation but
             | it's definitely possible.
        
               | wmf wrote:
               | A cubesat isn't 50kg. Maybe people are subletting a
               | single slot.
        
         | fidotron wrote:
         | And every country as well.
        
           | bitmasher9 wrote:
           | I doubt we'll end up with 200+ of these consolations in 100
           | years. Probably not even 20.
           | 
           | It's just a physics problem. Rocket launches are expensive
           | from an energy standpoint. These satellites will have a
           | decaying orbit that requires replacement. It won't look
           | appealing to most net-importers of energy (which is most
           | countries, but the whole EU might bear the cost for one
           | network for strategic reasons).
           | 
           | Not to mention most countries just don't operate enough
           | military assets outside of their borders to justify their own
           | network. Non-military applications will be just fine with E2E
           | encryption over public channels. More localized military
           | operations can have communication needs served other ways.
        
         | jvanderbot wrote:
         | These have to de orbit at end of life. Junkyard might be the
         | wrong analogy. More like busy workyard. Or highway.
        
           | az09mugen wrote:
           | I just cross the fingers to not witness a Kessler syndrome :
           | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessler_syndrome
        
             | voidfunc wrote:
             | You'll be long dead before it matters.
        
               | menturi wrote:
               | It's comments like these that sadden me. It's this
               | mindset that make me pessimistic about the long-term
               | viability of humanity as I think it is shared among many
               | people. When we (individuals/groups/society) don't plan
               | far ahead (even for the loosest sense/meaning of the word
               | "plan"), that will tend to lead to short-term benefits
               | with long-term detriments. That even applies even for
               | things that can occur past our lifespan. In my opinion,
               | we should strive to benefit/help our decedents. Climate
               | change is the most obvious case of this, but it applies
               | to other cases like solar flares on the scale of the
               | Carrington event or greater or like Kessler syndrome here
               | (both perhaps on the order of hundreds of years). If
               | Kessler syndrome is a legitimate concern to be a problem
               | in the not crazy distant future, we shouldn't dismiss it
               | outright just because the issue is unlikely to be a
               | problem within our lifetime.
        
               | voidfunc wrote:
               | There's no incentive to do this, it's politically
               | untenable to plan that far ahead. The beauty of humanity
               | is we're always changing and evolving because we only do
               | things within the scope of our lifetime.
               | 
               | The curse of humanity is having a brain that lets us
               | think too hard about what we want to be rather than
               | acknowledging what we are which is a bunch of mortal
               | animals with finite time spans that like to fuck, make
               | babies, raise families and occasionally we come together
               | and do shit together in the form of work so we can
               | further those three other priorities.
        
               | thrance wrote:
               | What do you make of the million buildings, devices, ideas
               | and techniques left to us by those that came before?
        
               | titzer wrote:
               | We better make double-sure than any leftover value past
               | your life is purely meted out through hereditary lines
               | and couldn't possibly benefit any but a tiny minority of
               | people. Like, if you had three houses and two kids at
               | death, there ain't no way some poor fool is getting that
               | leftover house for free!
        
               | squigz wrote:
               | > The beauty of humanity is we're always changing and
               | evolving because we only do things within the scope of
               | our lifetime.
               | 
               | This is just simply not true. For thousands of years,
               | humans have done things that are meant to endure beyond
               | our lifetimes - from building monuments like the the
               | pyramids to conducting scientific research to creating
               | art. Our ability to look beyond the here and now is
               | actually one of the defining characteristics of humanity.
        
               | timewizard wrote:
               | Move fast and break things.
               | 
               | Try to be dead before you have to pay for it.
               | 
               | The "hacker ethic" has been redefined.
        
               | thrance wrote:
               | That's what they thought in the 70s when they discovered
               | climate change. Look where we are now. Is basic concern
               | for others a sin in our current world?
        
               | titzer wrote:
               | We're living out the consequences of a system where the
               | Nash equilibrium is everyone maximizing their individual
               | benefit at the expense of all else. And that extends to
               | being an unapologetic jerk--as long as that face looks
               | like a stepping stone, climb on. And screw future people
               | and animals.
        
             | JumpCrisscross wrote:
             | Kessler cascades as depicted in _Gravity_ aren't really
             | possible [1]. Instead, a Kessler cascade would proceed
             | linearly, within a tight orbit, and over the course of
             | decades if not centuries. In LEO, the timeline for a
             | Kessler cascade is on the order of natural decay times.
             | 
             | [1]
             | https://aerospaceamerica.aiaa.org/features/understanding-
             | the...
        
           | 1oooqooq wrote:
           | burning the ozone layer in every reentry. ah the marvel of
           | offset costs.
        
             | perihelions wrote:
             | Satellite constellations account for a negligible 0.01% of
             | human ozone depletion. It's viral misinformation that
             | there's a rallying-cry issue here.
        
               | candiddevmike wrote:
               | We may need all the ozone possible to offset global
               | warming.
        
               | perihelions wrote:
               | I'm unsure what you mean by that; and ozone itself is a
               | greenhouse gas[0,1].
               | 
               | [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiative_forcing#/medi
               | a/File:...
               | 
               | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ozone#Ozone_as_a_greenh
               | ouse_ga...
        
               | perihelions wrote:
               | Late update: if you look at the fancy full version of the
               | IPCC graphs[0], there's a funny (ehh...) observation: the
               | human destruction of stratospheric ozone was one of the
               | largest climate radiative forcing factors--and it was on
               | the "cooling" side!
               | 
               | [0] https://www.ipcc.ch/report/ar5/wg1/technical-
               | summary/figts-0...
               | 
               | It's the negative-side, green (O3) bar in the third row,
               | "halocarbons". There's multiple human contributions to
               | ozone I don't fully understand, but, *that* one's the
               | stratospheric ozone destruction due to CFC's. (That's
               | _not_ to to say CFC 's were good for the climate: as that
               | same row illustrates, CFC's themselves are also
               | ultrapotent greenhouse gases. If you trust the fancy
               | graph, the CFC's direct heating effect slightly
               | outweighed their cooling effect via destroying ozone).
        
         | QuiEgo wrote:
         | It's hard to internalize just how big space is. Low Earth Orbit
         | has nearly twice the surface area of Earth. These LEO
         | constellations (Kuiper and Starlink) are trying to put one
         | object the size of a car per each area the size of Rhode
         | Island. We're a long way away from junkyards.
        
       | neuroelectron wrote:
       | The article doesn't even mention AWS, which I think is the
       | obvious implication being overlooked here. AWS has Government and
       | defense contracts, with DoD notably. This enables secure private
       | communication outside of the internet across data centers (of
       | which there are a lot) and of course, to any point on the Earth.
       | The idea that this is for "underserved communities" is probably a
       | sly nod to battlefield logistics.
        
         | parsimo2010 wrote:
         | They will undoubtedly sell some aspect of Kuiper through AWS.
         | They already have IP addresses and DNS in the AWS product list,
         | and they have all kinds of data transport services.
         | 
         | I don't know if the government implication is as big as you
         | think, as the US government has been doing secure satellite
         | communications for decades and has already given SpaceX the
         | contract for Starshield. So undoubtedly Kuiper would love a
         | piece of the action but there is already competition and Kuiper
         | is a bit late to the game.
        
           | nine_k wrote:
           | > _already given SpaceX the contract for Starshield_
           | 
           | Many key things the government buys need to have more than
           | one independent source. This way Kuiper may be just in time.
        
             | parsimo2010 wrote:
             | The federal acquisition regulations have fairly strict
             | rules against acquiring duplicate systems. It totally
             | permits buying systems from multiple vendors, but there are
             | interoperability requirements, and these would have to be
             | interpreted and negotiated. If Kuiper wants to provide
             | services to the government, I'd expect that they would have
             | to be compatible with the Starshield user equipment at a
             | minimum. The military doesn't want to be lugging around
             | multiple satellite terminals to connect to both the SpaceX
             | and Kuiper versions of Starshield. I doubt the government
             | would go so far as to require SpaceX and Kuiper make their
             | constellations interoperable in space, but even just
             | requiring compatibility with the ground terminals is a
             | pretty big hurdle.
             | 
             | SpaceX has proprietary info in practically all of their
             | comm layers, so interoperability is not easy. The
             | government probably did not buy full rights to the
             | protocols. So the first step to Kuiper getting a piece of
             | the pie is convincing the government that it is worth
             | paying to license SpaceX's comm standards so Kuiper can use
             | them. That is not an easy task.
             | 
             | There are a dozen hypothetical ways that Kuiper might get a
             | portion of government programs, but the fact is that SpaceX
             | has been embedding themselves into the US government's
             | space infrastructure for years without competition, and has
             | used that lack of competition to build up a bunch of
             | technical hurdles to purchasing services from other
             | contractors. For the past several years there has been no
             | reason for the government to spend money and effort to
             | prevent these hurdles because there was no other contractor
             | that might be able to offer a similar service. So SpaceX
             | has got a pretty sweet position right now, and Kuiper is
             | going to have to invest heavily before the government
             | changes course.
        
           | Perceval wrote:
           | Space is an AWS region, just like AWS has terrestrial
           | regions. The AWS space region is named Pigeon.
        
             | parsimo2010 wrote:
             | Currently "space" as an AWS region is only ground stations
             | communicating with satellites the customer owns, so nothing
             | from AWS is actually in space. But with the way AWS allows
             | customers to configure their network configurations, I
             | expect there will be an option to communicate between AWS
             | data centers using Kuiper for people who have a use case
             | and care enough to pay for it. I expect it to be pretty
             | niche, as most customers are fine with public fiber and
             | Amazon's own fiber, but I'll bet they sell it to someone,
             | like a remote AWS Outpost with Kuiper terminal on it for
             | people that work in the field.
        
           | neuroelectron wrote:
           | I didn't know about Starshield. I thought Starlink was
           | supposed to be neutral.
        
             | crop_rotation wrote:
             | Starshield is like a private totally separate Starlink for
             | the US government (and controlled/operated by the US
             | government). I am not sure what sort of neutrality you were
             | expecting as US government is SpaceX's biggest customer and
             | is obviously a critical infra company.
        
               | neuroelectron wrote:
               | I expect it not to be involved with the military, which
               | was something they stated
        
               | crop_rotation wrote:
               | Why would you assume any space company anywhere can be
               | neutral to their nations military. These companies depend
               | on government for far too many things (projects, permits)
               | and are much more tied to government than other
               | industries.
        
               | echoangle wrote:
               | When did SpaceX claim they weren't involved with
               | military? They are launching military payloads all the
               | time.
        
             | parsimo2010 wrote:
             | Starlink is as neutral as government regulations allow
             | (both the US regulations and those of the customer's
             | country). They just want to make a profit.
             | 
             | Starshield is a separate constellation for the US
             | government and select allies only, and is built and
             | launched by SpaceX.
        
             | SEJeff wrote:
             | Starlink is neutral. Starshield is not. Starshield runs on
             | different satellites with potential for custom additional
             | payloads as well.
        
         | dboreham wrote:
         | Quick note that post-Snowden: no it doesn't. There's no such
         | thing as "secure private communication" from magic wires.
        
           | XorNot wrote:
           | End to end encryption has not been broken.
        
             | lxgr wrote:
             | Yes, which makes the point of dedicated connectivity moot
             | from a data security point of view.
             | 
             | Metadata security and availability are different concerns.
        
               | fulafel wrote:
               | Traffic analysis tells your adversaries who you
               | communicate with, and what apps you're using, inferring
               | what communication was caused by what preceding
               | communication, etc which lets your adversary guess what
               | the communication was about. Esp when compared against
               | what other people is communicating about just then.
        
               | lxgr wrote:
               | Yes, which makes it a particularly bad idea to run
               | unencrypted metadata over satellite connections if it can
               | be avoided - and that's the case for communication
               | between data centers, arguably.
               | 
               | That might change once lasers or extremely tight radio
               | beams can be used for ground stations, but for the latter
               | you'd still need to make sure that nobody can get
               | reasonably close to your ground stations, which might be
               | possible for remote military bases, but probably not for
               | AWS data centers.
        
               | gruez wrote:
               | >Metadata security
               | 
               | If you have a dedicated circuit, you can send dummy data
               | 24/7 to mitigate any traffic analysis. Even if you don't,
               | you configure each link to send dummy data, so
               | eavesdroppers can't do any traffic analysis without
               | compromising the node itself.
        
         | lxgr wrote:
         | > This enables secure private communication outside of the
         | internet across data centers
         | 
         | How so? I'd imagine the datacenter terminal side downlink to be
         | much more easily tappable than fiberoptics.
         | 
         | There are advantages in latency and potentially availability,
         | but even there I would imagine fiber to win in an adversarial
         | active jamming scenario.
        
           | nine_k wrote:
           | > _easily tappable_
           | 
           | I suppose in any realistic scenario we should assume that the
           | enemy may be listening to all our communication at all times.
           | This is the assumption behind such daily things as WPA3, SSH,
           | TLS.
           | 
           | Jamming is a much more serious concern.
        
             | lxgr wrote:
             | Yes, so all in all for satellite vs. fiber in backbone
             | applications, I'd say that it's a wash (or slight win for
             | fiber) when it comes to security, and a definitive win for
             | fiber when it comes to jamming resistance.
             | 
             | In the field it's a completely different story, of course -
             | you can't always pull fiber (although it does appear in
             | unexpected scenarios, such as fiber-operated UAVs or
             | torpedoes).
        
               | saltcured wrote:
               | Not sure. Jamming a wireless signal is an active process
               | that stops interfering when you stop transmitting.
               | 
               | Destroying fiber with a backhoe or an axe doesn't stop
               | interfering when you stop digging or chopping though.
        
               | pclmulqdq wrote:
               | Wire-guided drones and missiles seem to be increasingly
               | common, probably due to the cost of instantaneous radio
               | jamming being so low. However, it's very easy to cut a
               | fiber in a way that is hard to repair. Fishing trawlers
               | do this all the time. In that sense, fiber can be
               | "jammed" (sabotaged) much more easily than
               | radio/satellite.
        
           | SEJeff wrote:
           | FHSS[1] has made jamming difficult in US military
           | communications for decades. It doesn't make it impossible but
           | jamming the entire spectrum is nearly impossible at scale for
           | almost everyone. At best it would affect small areas until
           | the US sent rf seeking missiles (HARM are designed for this)
           | at the jammer source. Also note that modern satcom like
           | Starlink uses AESA digital phased array antennas much like a
           | F35's radar. It's so much more complex than legacy analog
           | stuff.
           | 
           | [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency-
           | hopping_spread_spe...
        
       | nkrisc wrote:
       | > Say a couple perpetually quarrels about who's going to do the
       | dishes. To prevent further squabbles they decide to split the
       | chores on weekly, alternating basis. > > Everything works well,
       | until one of the spouses falls ill. The dishes pile up in the
       | kitchen sink, but the other spouse does not feel responsible for
       | the mess. It's not their turn. And yes, there's nobody to blame.
       | 
       | And this is where accountability sinks distinguish two different
       | kinds of people: some will (rightfully) realize that it is not
       | their responsibility and no one is to blame, so they will do
       | nothing. Others will see also see that it is not their
       | responsibility and no one is to blame, but they will also see
       | that it will become their problem regardless of responsibility or
       | blame, and so they do something about it.
       | 
       | Unfortunately the latter is often not rewarded or even actively
       | discouraged or punished in corporate settings.
        
         | parsimo2010 wrote:
         | I think you're posting in the wrong comments section
        
         | Gud wrote:
         | You are in the wrong comment section, but thanks for the
         | thoughtful comment!
        
           | nkrisc wrote:
           | I definitely am.
        
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