[HN Gopher] When Americana doesn't mean American
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When Americana doesn't mean American
Author : tomrod
Score : 49 points
Date : 2025-05-02 00:13 UTC (22 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (deeprootsmag.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (deeprootsmag.org)
| brudgers wrote:
| To my taste, a lot of great Americana music comes from Canadian
| musicians.
|
| Perhaps because Canada has english, a east coast, a west, and the
| great plains.
| SllX wrote:
| That's a check
| sandworm101 wrote:
| Art is a comment on culture. It is often easier for an outsider
| to comment than it is for someone steeped in that culture.
| There are no doubt many aspects of American culture that go
| unnoticed by Americans but are obvious to Canadians.
| pyrale wrote:
| > There are no doubt many aspects of American culture that go
| unnoticed by Americans but are obvious to Canadians.
|
| Also maybe some aspects of geography, like knowing in which
| continent Canada is.
| bee_rider wrote:
| Although I don't have much faith in the geographical
| talents of my countrymen, I think most of us know where
| Canada is.
|
| I usually try to use US-ian instead of American, but it
| looks really stupid and so I get why it is pretty
| widespread to call us Americans.
| bentley wrote:
| The average American knows that Canada is in North America,
| as does the average Canadian, the average Englishman, and
| the average Australian.
|
| The average non-American is from outside the Anglosphere,
| and so may be from a culture that considers North America
| and South America to be a single continent. But continents
| don't have an objective definition, only a cultural one,
| and in the language and culture of the Anglosphere the
| Americas are distinct continents, America is a country, and
| Americans are that country's people.
|
| I've never met a Canadian who clamored to be called an
| American. (Except naturalized citizens!)
| RajT88 wrote:
| I grew up near Chicago. Detecting someone who grew up in
| Toronto is kind of like one or more scenes from Inglourious
| Basterds. "Soory", "aboot".
| immibis wrote:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_civil_religion
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| It doesn't have Nashville funneling artists into a narrowly
| defined genre and excluding anyone outside the system from
| airplay.
| brudgers wrote:
| Despite its Grand Ol' Opery fame, on the ground Nashville has
| a diversity of musicians because of musical infrastructure,
| cost of living, and a social normality of musicianship.
|
| Of course Nashville is not a hothouse of radical music, but
| we are talking about Americana right?
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| I speak of the corporate "Nashville" music publishing scene
| that controls what gets promoted as the latest flavor of
| "Country", not what happens locally in the city. A lot of
| what gets classed as Americana would have been played on
| country radio into the 70s.
| brudgers wrote:
| Pedal steel is perhaps the most Americana of instruments;
| there were few pedal steel players better than Jerry
| Garcia, and few bands with larger repertoires of
| Americana than the Grateful Dead.
|
| In the 1970's, the Grateful Dead weren't played on
| country radio. Indeed they were barely on radio at all
| anywhere until Touch of Gray in the mid 1980's.
|
| And then only because of MTV...which in the early days
| refused to air videos by black musicians.
|
| Nashville was no different from the rest of US pop
| culture industry then. And is no different today.
| Americana still fares much better there than EDM, Punk,
| and Rap.
| dmurray wrote:
| According to Wikipedia they aired music by Black
| musicians from day 1, with the Specials among others in
| their first program [0].
|
| They were criticized for not having _enough_ black acts.
| That 's a reasonable criticism, but let's not make it
| sound like some kind of apartheid. They made a commercial
| decision about what genres to focused on, rather than
| something racially motivated. They didn't air many videos
| by country singers or classical violinists either.
|
| [0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTV
| greenavocado wrote:
| Corporate Nashville is rich elites picking winners that
| suit and promote their society's agendas
| mikrl wrote:
| One of the cultural touchstones of being a Canadian is the smug
| yet bleak realization that your tiny (in population) nation has
| produced so many titans of various creative fields, but
| everyone thinks they're American because they had to bugger off
| down there to get their careers going.
|
| Steppenwolf being the quintessential example.
| spamizbad wrote:
| Not sure if Canadians are aware of this, but Canada does two
| things really well:
|
| 1) Developing its own domestic artists/musicians, to a much
| greater degree than the US (eg https://www.factor.ca/)
|
| 2) Greatly restricting smaller foreign acts (especially from
| the US) from performing in Canada for commercial purposes
|
| Yes, point #2 also applies to the US, but it's not enforced.
| But if you cross into Canada with musical instruments,
| they'll put the fear of God into you.
|
| This is largely why the phenomena you describe exists:
| artists can develop within their domestic cocoon, without
| being crowded-out by Americans, and then tour their larger,
| wealthier neighbor to greatly expand their profile virtually
| risk-free.
| jchw wrote:
| Even as a U.S. citizen this hits me frequently. A lot of
| amazing comedians I didn't realize were Canadian for a long
| time, as a U.S. citizen. Norm Macdonald comes to mind, but
| he's far from alone.
| bee_rider wrote:
| Interesting. He seems extremely Canadian to me. A lot of
| his jokes play off this sort of fish-out-of-water vibe...
| jchw wrote:
| For Norm, just the crude nature of a lot of his jokes
| felt like something that was very "American", at least
| certainly in the 90s and 2000s. His delivery, on the
| other hand, always felt fairly unique to me. It's also
| possible I just mistook characteristics of Canadian
| comics as being those of American comics by simply not
| realizing how many popular comedians are Canadian.
| brudgers wrote:
| Canada has government programs requiring broadcasters to
| broadcast Canadian content. So there are strong economic
| incentives to find, fund, develop, and promote Canadian
| artists working in various media.
| mikrl wrote:
| In my undergrad days I learned about the MAPL
| classification to be considered Canadian content: Music,
| Artist, Performance, Lyrics
|
| IIRC you need to hit 3/4 to be considered Canadian
| content.
|
| At that time J Biebs was big, but since his music and
| lyrics were written by Americans and he
| performed/recorded in the States, his music was not
| CanCon despite him being Canadian. So, at the radio
| station I volunteered at, his music would count towards
| the 30% quota of not-CanCon music.
| r14c wrote:
| Canada and the US are both part of North America. Maybe
| Americana transcends borders and political divisions.
| RajT88 wrote:
| Canada is not terribly different.
|
| Near the border, the people on either side talk the same. You
| go north/south the accents vary on a spectrum.
|
| Oh yahh, dem yoopers are almost canucks!
| sandworm101 wrote:
| The accents actually change more east-west. That's why all
| the movies filmed in Vancouver using local actors sound
| just like those filmed in LA. The "neutral" accents of the
| US midwest are similar to those of the Canadian prairies.
| Only in the east does the north-south thing become so
| prominent.
| ZeWaka wrote:
| > Only in the east does the north-south thing become so
| prominent.
|
| Sounds just like the situation here in the US!
| gspencley wrote:
| > Perhaps because Canada has english, a east coast, a west, and
| the great plains.
|
| There are geographical similarities but I think it is more
| cultural.
|
| Culturally, Canada and the USA are extremely similar. What a
| lot of people who don't live in Canada often fail to realize is
| that the vast, overwhelming majority of our population is
| concentrated in southern Canada... and that these areas are
| often even SOUTH OF PARTS OF THE USA in terms of latitude.
|
| For example, Seattle WA lies on roughly the same latitude as
| Ottawa, ON which is quite north of Toronto. Detroit Michigan
| borders Windsor, ON (my home town) and Windsor is to the south
| of Detroit.
|
| When broadcast television and radio were in their prime, we all
| watched American TV and listened to American radio (and the
| northern USA got Canadian channels etc).
|
| In border towns like Vancouver and Windsor, it's not uncommon
| for people to have family on both sides of the border or to
| even live in one country and hold a day job in another.
|
| A lot of Canadians have winter homes in southern states.
| Florida is a popular destination for east-coast Canadians and,
| while I don't know if it has changed, a typical visitor visa
| for Canadians let us stay for up to 6 months before we have to
| go back. And a lot of people even hold dual-citizenship.
| UI_at_80x24 wrote:
| >Detroit Michigan borders Windsor, ON (my home town) and
| Windsor is to the south of Detroit.
|
| Born and raised in SOUTH Detroit!
|
| Howdy from the East Side of Windsor.
| kashunstva wrote:
| > I think it is more cultural
|
| Dual citizen here living on the Canadian side. It will be
| interesting to see how the political unraveling in the U.S.
| will force Canadians to regard and reinforce aspects of our
| culture that are distinct.
|
| It is also interesting that you mention Canadian snowbirds.
| That too, at least anecdotally seems to be changing. In the
| last few weeks I ran into two individuals who are both
| working on unloading their homes in Florida on account all of
| this xenophobic sentiment.
| brudgers wrote:
| _To me_ geography is inseparable from culture. It is the
| water in which cultures swim.
|
| E.g. proximity to the US is why US broadcast TV was a normal
| experience for many Canadians.
| foobarian wrote:
| I always thought it was because of long dark days in winter
| due to high latitudes, when there is nothing better to do
| than make music :-D Also explains the Seattle grunge, and all
| the good musicians from Alaska.
| thimkerbell wrote:
| and mr. young.
| cowsandmilk wrote:
| See also Japan being a stronghold of Ivy League fashion.
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Take_Ivy
| alabastervlog wrote:
| The _Articles of Interest_ podcast (affiliated with _99%
| Invisible_ , I think) has a good series on Ivy fashion, and
| covers _Take Ivy_ and the Japanese interest in it extensively.
|
| First of seven episodes of theirs about Ivy:
|
| https://www.articlesofinterest.co/podcast/episode/338532f2/a...
|
| Fussell's _Class_ and (especially) Birnbach _et al_ 's _The
| Official Preppy Handbook_ also treat extensively of the style.
| devin wrote:
| Here to vouch for this. This is a fantastic review of Ivy or
| "prep" style. Even if you aren't into fashion I think you'll
| find it fascinating.
| mopsi wrote:
| And some of the most influential Westerns were shot by Italians
| in the deserts of Spain, often without any of them ever having
| set foot in the US, and with a grasp of English barely a notch
| above miming. The stereotypical Western (as it is known today)
| is largely Italian-made, especially when it comes to the music
| (Ennio Morricone):
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spaghetti_Western
| corimaith wrote:
| It's a great twist of irony perhaps that it is media that
| takes cultural appropriation (albeit from a point of
| admiration) often ends up reaching further than the original.
|
| It's not just for americana, many staples for european-
| inspired or gothic fantasy are made by the japanese, even if
| most of these creators don't speak english. Well in a sense
| perhaps it's the unique feature of the Western legacy that
| it's virtually transcended for everyone to use, rather than
| just a single group.
| anthk wrote:
| The Western movies and books are widely known for every
| Grandpa in Spain except for the actual Far West history.
|
| In the 70's, tons of people bought a-dime novels full of
| cheap Western like 'pulp' stories written from Spanish
| authors with English nicknames at the cover.
|
| Later, with the widely spread television, spies and
| officers/detectives took that role seamlessly, with Charles
| Bronson et all. Because in the end it's the same story
| everywhere. Lonely wolf vs the baddies. That stuff sold
| well everywhere, because every society has its badass hero.
|
| I'm pretty sure tons of French directors set lots of
| drama/action movies in the US too.
|
| Oh, and not just white officers. The Asian Martial Arts
| exploitation with Bruce Lee and clones was widely seen from
| their sons too in late 70's/early 80's.
|
| And these would be surely cloned in the US too.
|
| Ninjas, samurais and exotic Japanese and Chinese fighters
| were pretty much everywhere too. And, OFC, Dragon Ball in
| Europe was a huge success in late 80's, even if at the
| beginning it just was a comedy manga/anime.
|
| Dragon Ball does the same in the end with the Chinese
| culture being remade from the Japanese as a parody...
|
| The French had Blueberry, Lucky Luke...
| kergonath wrote:
| > The French had Blueberry, Lucky Luke...
|
| Franco-Belgian... Goscinny and Giraud were French, but
| Morris and Charlier were Belgian. I am not writing this
| to pick nits, but the Franco-Belgian bandes dessinees
| were very much a synergy, worth more than the separate
| parts.
| anthk wrote:
| Yes, I know. Asterix, Gaston...
| madcaptenor wrote:
| Calling it "Spaghetti", in turn, says something about
| American stereotypes of Italians.
| anthk wrote:
| We Spaniards call them Spaguetti Westerns too.
| Aloisius wrote:
| Indeed, Wikipedia says the term was coined by a Spaniard:
|
| _> According to veteran spaghetti Western actor Aldo
| Sambrell, the phrase spaghetti Western was coined by
| Spanish journalist Alfonso Sanchez in reference to the
| Italian food spaghetti._
| anthk wrote:
| Maybe because:
|
| - Italian directors
|
| - Shooting scenes looking chaotic, like an Spaghetti dish
| int_19h wrote:
| This sort of thing has a long-standing tradition in Europe,
| by the way. Karl May of the Winnetou fame wrote what is
| probably one of the popular Western book series in the world
| without ever having been to US.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnetou
| firesteelrain wrote:
| TIAMS (mentioned in article) stopped broadcasting I thought. RNEI
| and Radio Carptha took over. You can hear it on WRMI out of
| Florida every week.
|
| https://swling.com/blog/2023/08/radio-carpathia-and-rnei-to-...
|
| Bob Catface (https://bsky.app/profile/bobcatface.bsky.social) has
| a Discord (Mostly Shortwave Discord: discord.gg/fr4Uuw4z5h) where
| you can receive notices when these come on the air. If you are a
| ham radio operator or SWL, you can decode MSFK usually with these
| shows.
| danans wrote:
| Americana/Roots music is a vehicle for people across the world to
| express themselves in a shared musical language of _common
| people_.
|
| For many cultures of the world, the most prominent musical genres
| are either highly parochial or highly corporatized (the latter
| also being the case in the USA).
|
| Americana/Roots music still sits in place apart from those other
| genres, and while this probably limits the possible financial
| success of its practitioners, it preserves its authenticity and
| therefore it's broad appeal.
|
| That raises the question, why doesn't every other form of
| authentic folk music around the world have the same broad appeal?
| Why aren't musicians all over the world taken up, say, Indian or
| Chinese folk music in total (vs borrowing themes or instruments)?
|
| Because even Americana/Roots music has been a major source of the
| waves of US cultural and economic imperialism that have flowed
| over the world, from at least the early days of jazz and and
| definitely in the days of blues, rock, r&b, and rap.
| darkerside wrote:
| I'd say all the popular genres are descended from the same
| musical tree, from baroque to classical to romantic to modern.
| Americana is probably barely a century old, and is just another
| branch on that trunk.
|
| Eastern folk music is a different plant.
|
| African drum music as well, but is a hybrid that has integrated
| itself into the modern music structure.
| danans wrote:
| > Americana is probably barely a century old, and is just
| another branch on that trunk.
|
| It's arguably a branch with connections back to at least two
| trees, African being one and European being the other.
| 867-5309 wrote:
| came to comments seeking an Offspring album reference,
| disappointedly wrote this one, then left
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| One of my favorite "Americana" videos, done by the Danish group,
| The Cartoons: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNAr5tzZxdk
|
| Also, there's a park in Tokyo, where people dress in "rockabilly"
| outfits, not unlike the ones in the video.
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