[HN Gopher] Dopamine signals when a fear can be forgotten
___________________________________________________________________
Dopamine signals when a fear can be forgotten
Author : gmays
Score : 203 points
Date : 2025-05-01 17:29 UTC (1 days ago)
(HTM) web link (picower.mit.edu)
(TXT) w3m dump (picower.mit.edu)
| 190eH169ps wrote:
| can someone build a script that extracts the names of all this
| stuff like neurotransmitters, messengers, proteins, hormones and
| visualizes their amounts per metabolism around/at the time of the
| measured effect/observed behavior and or during the time of
| conditioning -- when stimulating (chemical, physical,
| psychological) measures were taken? a table to start with would
| be fine.
|
| please? all that lingo is above my pay-grade
| xattt wrote:
| I believe this may be called neuroscience.
| K0balt wrote:
| I'm sure the whole fold will fit into a cute infographic!
| ricksunny wrote:
| Strikes me that parent comment wants to see a knowledge graph
| constructed. Could be done for a lot of fields, and would be
| effectively named for the field they describe, like
| 'neuroscience' in the example you illustrated.
| rom16384 wrote:
| Ask Google Deep Research, I'm sure it will do a good enough job
| burnished wrote:
| No, not really. It is difficult to measure because the tissue
| is delicate and the scale is very, very small.
|
| You can look at my citation manager for some educational
| resources on the topic however
| https://www.zotero.org/i_o/collections/C2QRMIZE
|
| But I would mostly recommend a neuroscience textbook. The
| following link is to the entry discussing what a
| neurotransmitter is so I think you'll find it immediately
| interesting https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK10957/
|
| In general neurotransmitters trigger a response in the target
| neuron by interacting with a channel embedded in the cell wall.
| This can trigger a change in the target cell if the triggered
| channel causes a protein to be released, or it can be an input
| signal used by the target to determine whether or not it should
| fire and pass a signal (through the medium of
| neurotransmitters) on to the neurons it itself targets.
|
| If you are interested in the topic I strongly recommend
| creating a personal glossary for yourself. That textbook I
| linked has one I believe, and that ncbi domain has many other
| useful resources. There is a lot of simple sentences whose
| meaning is obscured purely because of a deficit of vocabulary,
| once you get some definitions down then a lot of medical texts
| really open up.
| abhisek wrote:
| I have a simple question. How do I control dopamine in "my" brain
| so that I can focus on "here and now" instead of HN and GitHub.
| sosodev wrote:
| Strengthen your prefrontal cortex so "you" have more control
| over your urges. You typically do this with meditation.
| pyrophoenix wrote:
| Or you just set a firewall and block these 2 websites ^^
| (Welcome to the club)
| mirekrusin wrote:
| Your firewall seems broken.
| shermantanktop wrote:
| Maybe they are texting from the embedded browser in their
| car's infotainment system? Never underestimate the
| creativity of a procrastinator.
| ipaddr wrote:
| They just used a proxy.
| guntars wrote:
| This was an interesting connection to me between meditation
| and neuroscience. Buddhists talk about the "monkey mind" that
| chatters incessantly. Well, that's the default mode network,
| part of your brain that is active when you're not engaged in
| a specific task, when you're thinking about self, others,
| past or future. A useful adaptation in our past environment
| for sure, but overactivity can be detrimental. The Buddhist
| solution is to mediate, to focus the attention on a singular
| thing and not be distracted by the chatter. That ability
| lives in the prefrontal cortex! It's able to override the DMN
| and it's something that can be trained by just exercising it.
| astrange wrote:
| Not recommended if you're depressed/in a bad situation
| because you can just disassociate from everything instead of
| fixing it.
| willy_k wrote:
| You could just as (if not more) easily gain clarity into
| what you need to fix and how, and increase your ability to
| act on those insights.
| enaaem wrote:
| Any special kind of meditation that is recommended?
| layer8 wrote:
| Basic mindfulness meditation should do the job: https://en.
| wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness#Watching_the_breat...
| roenxi wrote:
| While it is literally just sitting somewhere watching the
| breath it is easy to do things wrong like sitting
| concentrating hard or being bored instead of observing
| the boredom. The irony of doing nothing being a difficult
| skill. Anyone interested probably wants to find some
| serious mediators to talk to - Buddhist monks are
| recommended but there are others here and there.
| justanotherjoe wrote:
| "Ora et Labora"
| z3t4 wrote:
| You can try forming other habits in order to break the feedback
| loop. eg. define a good habit and repeat it. For example, at
| the start of the day immediately start working where you left
| the day before, then after lunch break you can check e-mail and
| read the news.
| corry wrote:
| 1. Cold plunge - high but transient (last for hours). I do it
| in the morning, after my shower - start the day off right.
|
| 2. Exercise - short-term: increases dopamine, serotonin, and a
| bunch of other good stuff; long-term: increases dopamine
| receptor density.
|
| 3. Caffeine - while doesn't technically increase dopamine, it
| blocks adenosine receptors which indirectly increases dopamine
| signalling. But habitual use blunts the effect.
|
| Other less acute things are: good sleep and lots of sunlight
| esp early in the day.
| aantix wrote:
| Nicotine.
| sokka_h2otribe wrote:
| Be verrrry careful. 7 years and very very disregulated from
| nicotine. Getting better 1+ year later
| willy_k wrote:
| Nicotine doesn't really have any good MOAs. Inhalation is
| very short lasting, addictive, and gross and unhealthy.
| Pouches are harsh and still don't last very long, gum
| (especially Lucy brand) is better but still has the same
| issues. And patches cause a lot of arm irritation. And all
| of these are very easy to overdo and make you feel
| somewhere in between physically uneasy and on edge to sick,
| that is until you get used to them and then you feel that
| way when you're off.
|
| Also personally, it doesn't even help me with focus, in
| part because administering it is too distracting. I wonder
| whether there's a place for an extended release nicotine
| pill, although that would probably be pretty rough on the
| gut.
| kubrickslair wrote:
| I have found l-tyrosine also being quite helpful when taken
| occasionally.
| lifty wrote:
| Done occasionally it's fine. It can lead to crashes and
| also anger or increased irritability. Things that mess with
| neurotransmitters can be hit or miss. A better long term
| strategy is to focus on fundamental things that improve the
| metabolic health of your cells.
|
| One other "light" supplement that can dampen addictive
| behaviors or cravings is l-theanine.
| awestroke wrote:
| Cold plunge is good but keep in mind cold water immersion
| inhibits hypertrophy (but improves recovery time) depending
| on time since exercise, temperature and duration.
| bloqs wrote:
| Dopamine levels don't reset until you sleep, roughly speaking.
|
| Don't do highly dopaminergic activities like using electronic
| devices that provide entertainment or communications
| firtoz wrote:
| Meditation definitely, closer to Vipassana variation
| klik99 wrote:
| The irony of asking on HN how to not use HN
| nashashmi wrote:
| The best place to help you cope with an addiction are with
| the people who are confessed addicts.
|
| But just because they are the best doesn't mean their help
| actually helps.
| pessimizer wrote:
| The best place to help you cope with continuing an
| addiction, but not the best place to get rid of an
| addiction.
|
| If you want to get rid of an addiction, stay away from
| addicts and everything they produce. Stay away from their
| artistic creations, stay away from their complicated
| explanations of the world, and stay away from their gossip.
| Also, please don't study to become any kind of "drug
| counselor," get regular person jobs and normal hobbies.
| You're dying of romance, and you need to figure out how to
| love the world as it is.
| zifpanachr23 wrote:
| This is good advice and it's worked for other things I've
| been addicted to.
|
| I guess you can think of this as my retirement from
| Hacker News. Thank you kind stranger.
| swatcoder wrote:
| This may sound flippant, but one real option is to just quit
| doing so and not start again.
|
| Maybe it's not obvious to you, but many of your real-world
| colleagues and role models don't visit HN or anything
| comparable. And they're still working at the desk next to you,
| and in the office you aspire to have some day. For all that
| stuff like this might _feel_ justified or even necessary, it 's
| not. And if you're finding that it introduces difficulties into
| your life or psyche, you are entitled to and capable of
| quitting altogether. You don't need to try to moderate it.
|
| (And frankly, I personally don't even know what you're doing on
| GitHub so compulsively. I didn't even realize that was a thing,
| if that helps speak to how irrelevant it can be.)
| nashashmi wrote:
| You love dopamine. You don't love stress.
|
| Advice: love stress. Enjoy it. Feel it. Just don't ask for it.
| RangerScience wrote:
| Go see if you're ADD/ADHD and get on meds (I recommend
| Dexedrine), then also "join" the neurospicey community spaces
| where people swap tips, learnings and observations.
|
| Also always go for a walk, touch grass, hug a tree. Pleasant
| physical experiences are truly effective at getting you into
| the "here and now".
| Aurornis wrote:
| You'll get a lot of pop-science answers when you ask about
| dopamine. The less popular truth is that focus and self-
| discipline can't be reduced to a single chemical. It's not as
| simple as a level in your brain that goes up and down.
|
| Side note: ADHD is more than just dopamine, too. The stimulant
| medications used for ADHD have strong norepinephrine activity.
| There are non-stimulant ADHD medications that act on
| norepinephrine primarily. There are even studies where some
| non-dopaminergic ADHD medications outperform stimulants in
| certain measures like memory by modulating adrenergic circuits.
|
| The unpopular take is that you need to realize that "dopamine"
| is an abstraction for higher level behaviors. It's not
| "dopamine" leading you to be distracted or focus, it's a
| behavior that you need to train and develop over time. There's
| also a big emotional regulation component where it helps to
| understand why you're seeking distractions instead of doing the
| work. Is it to provide comfort? Avoid uncomfortable feelings
| that the work brings up? Perfectionism? Are you trying to
| recharge during working hours because you're not recharging
| outside of work properly? There are many angles that need to be
| pursued.
|
| I would recommend starting with small steps. Look up Screen
| Time settings or plugins that will limit your time spent on HN
| if that's a problem. Start with a generous setting and lower it
| over time. If you slip, start again the next time.
|
| Treat it like something you train. Start small, make a
| deliberate effort, and work on getting better slowly. If you
| expect to flip a switch and turn into the most diligent coder
| you can imagine, you're unlikely to succeed. If you set a goal
| to do 10 more minutes of work and 10 fewer minutes of HN before
| lunch, that's doable. Little wins will compound.
| HPsquared wrote:
| Anna Karenina principle oft quoted from Tolstoy:
|
| "all happy families are alike; every unhappy family is
| unhappy in its own way".
|
| Like with any complex system, there are a lot of ways for the
| system to fail, and the number of states considered "working
| properly" is much smaller.
| munificent wrote:
| Get away from screens.
|
| It's hard to focus on the here and now when the here and now is
| the soul-deadening sensory-less experience of sitting
| motionless staring at a flat rectangle of pixels.
|
| Go out in the woods. Get your hands dirty. Meet friends at a
| bar and laugh until your stomach hurts.
|
| It's so much easier to be present in the moment when the moment
| is actually high fidelity and nourishing.
| alganet wrote:
| Screens are awesome. They are the heir apparent to the
| fireplace. A very old human tradition and very cherished.
|
| Outside, right now, people stay on screens all the time. It's
| the same stuff. Why even bother?
|
| Humans plan ahead. We look towards the future and the past.
| Not all the time, but a lot of the time.
|
| This carpe diem stuff doesn't seem like the right way to
| approach the problem given our current technological society.
|
| Also, I'm not gonna party just because someone told me to.
| jajko wrote:
| You do you, but lets say I don't agree with what you say at
| all. Quality of life and all. Since I do both sides its
| easy to compare short and long term effects and impact on
| quality of life and happiness, plus its trivial to look
| around and see exactly same stuff repeating all over with
| literally everybody.
|
| Suffice to say parent is correct, and you are not.
| aaronbaugher wrote:
| I recently started doing a 5-4-3-2-1 grounding exercise,
| where you look around you and name 5 things you can see,
| touch and name 4 things you can touch, name 3 things you can
| hear, 2 you can smell, and 1 you can taste.
|
| I was surprised how different it felt to consciously see and
| touch things. It's not like I'm walking around my house with
| my eyes closed normally, but most of the time things aren't
| really registering. Stopping to intentionally focus for a
| second on an actual object or a sound I'm currently hearing
| seems to sort of wake me up, bring me out of a trance a
| little. Not as well as digging in the garden, but not bad for
| a few seconds in the middle of the work day.
| bob1029 wrote:
| Exercise for time with steady-state exertion has proven to be
| the ultimate focus supplement for me. Right afterward it is
| like a very powerful drug. If the exercise isn't at least 30
| minutes, I don't feel anything. Somewhere around 38-45 minutes,
| the music begins to fade in.
|
| My preferred steady state suffering machine is the Concept2
| rower. I can keep an eye on stroke/min and cal/hr to stay
| within a very narrow band of exertion. HIIT and weightlifting
| are great too, but these are not as strenuous on the brain's
| "focus for time" circuitry. Lots of downtime and opportunities
| to get on the cellular device. A straight hour on the rower
| with the cruise control locked @ 850cal/hr is a totally
| different kind of animal.
| phkahler wrote:
| Give yourself an orgasm right after doing the activity you want
| to reinforce?
|
| Make an electroshock gizmo that hits you when your browser
| visits certain domains?
| childintime wrote:
| Makes sense, as Parkinson patients, freeze or tremble, which are
| both fear responses. I have seen my mother die of Parkinsons. I
| see a static (permanent) fear response as the straightforward
| cause for Parkinsons (combined with a helpful personality, which
| makes it difficult to just snap out of it).
|
| On the other end there were people close by that having seen war,
| took a life lesson from their fear response: you survive by being
| alert and by distrusting. They radiated a permanent state of
| alarm, as the enemy may come when you least expect it.
| burnished wrote:
| If I remember correctly it is not at all related to fear but a
| disfunction in the basal ganglia (which performs action
| selection). Think of it as more like an inability to select an
| action or to select just one from a range of related movements
| (not at the conscious level, but between the conscious decision
| making and the signals being fired down your spine).
| dayvigo wrote:
| No, the pathology of Parkinson's Disease is dopaminergic
| dysfunction (the symptoms coming from this happening in the
| area relevant to planning movements, separate from areas that
| influence emotion or reward), usually driven by loss of
| dopamine-producing neurons. This is well-described by decades
| of research and tens of thousands of peer-reviewed papers.
| mountainriver wrote:
| Incoming cocaine therapy!
|
| Seriously though as someone who suffers from extreme anxiety I am
| eternally grateful for this kind of work.
|
| I would really like to see this combined with brain stimulation.
| Nuzzerino wrote:
| Give it about 5 years.
| SequoiaHope wrote:
| Well MDMA therapy is a real one and probably much more
| effective than cocaine for these purposes.
| pier25 wrote:
| Psilocybin too
| dns_snek wrote:
| MDMA (or psilocybin) assisted psychotherapy to be specific. I
| don't think just taking these drugs has been shown to be an
| effective treatment :)
| SequoiaHope wrote:
| Yes I was referring to MDMA assisted psychotherapy, which I
| am a huge proponent of. However I've found these materials
| to be quite effecting at healing when taken conscientiously
| outside of a traditional assisted therapy session. Of
| course there probably haven't been a lot of studies on this
| because formal therapy studies are probably easier to get
| approved, so I wouldn't take the absence of evidence as
| evidence of absence.
| roughly wrote:
| What's interesting here is that in the drug treatment world
| it's basically known that drug abuse is almost always a
| reaction to some kind of psychological trauma or disorder, and
| an awful lot of drugs (not just cocaine) play heavily with the
| dopamine pathways. The idea of dopamine as your brain's signal
| that you're safe fits about as neatly with that as can be.
|
| (Of course, like everything in biology, dopamine also does
| about a gazillion other things, too, so it's not quite that cut
| and dry, but it rhymes, at least.)
| phren0logy wrote:
| > in the drug treatment world it's basically known that drug
| abuse is almost always a reaction to some kind of
| psychological trauma or disorder
|
| This is incorrect. While this is true for a substantial
| number of people, I want to offer some resistance to the pop-
| psychology axiom that "everything is because of trauma." Not
| only is is unsupported by science, it has lead to an
| expansion of the definition of the word "trauma" in popular
| culture that's so broad as to be nearly useless clinically or
| scientifically.
| foobiekr wrote:
| I had the unique experience as a youth in attending a school
| where a substantial portion of the school was funneled there
| by one of the many 1970s and 1980s troubled teen corporations
| that spun out of Synanon after it collapsed. This one
| specialized in drug addicts.
|
| Almost all of my classmates (not me, unfortunately) were from
| exceptionally wealthy families and excepting one none of them
| ever mentioned any childhood trauma. Instead they were
| precocious partiers who got into drugs despite being underage
| and going to the nightclubs in the seedy part of town - no
| one at the time was turning away hot young women or gay(for
| pay or real) young men. And the club scene was a drug scene.
| It still is.
|
| I don't think trauma is actually at the root of almost all
| drug abusers. The only first class abusers (pot and alcohol
| in serious quantities daily) that I know at the moment grew
| up in perfectly fine suburban families and are in good, non-
| narcissistic/controlling/etc relationships with their
| families. They're just addicts who can't stop. One of them is
| going to die from it, eventually, given his level of alcohol
| consumption.
| Aurornis wrote:
| > in the drug treatment world it's basically known that drug
| abuse is almost always a reaction to some kind of
| psychological trauma or disorder,
|
| This is not true in the professional world. People engage in
| drug use for many reasons, including pure recreation.
|
| Trauma can precede relapses or bouts of drug abuse, but it's
| not a universal explanation.
|
| There are a lot of pop-culture ideas that explain everything
| away as trauma. These are popular on podcasts, Reddit, and
| other social media websites. There are also types of
| therapists who learned to treat trauma and then try to apply
| that to everything. "If all you have is a hammer, everything
| looks like a nail". These therapists will try to reframe
| everything as trauma because it's what they know how to
| teach.
|
| They often reverse engineer a traumatic backstory as an
| explanation even when one doesn't exist. You can find
| podcasters and therapists who will even claim that _being
| born_ imparts permanent trauma that explains things long into
| adulthood. There 's no evidence behind this claim, but it's
| convenient for therapists who need to find a traumatic
| backstory before they can address something because everyone
| was born at some point.
|
| > The idea of dopamine as your brain's signal that you're
| safe fits about as neatly with that as can be.
|
| That idea is completely wrong, though.
|
| The study is talking about dopamine signaling in one specific
| location of the brain.
|
| Dopamine is used in other locations in the brain to encode
| aversive stimuli, among other things.
|
| Dopamine (and other neurotransmitters) don't just do one
| single thing in the brain. They have diverse effects all
| over.
|
| Also, many of the drugs that people associated with dopamine
| actually have much broader effects, such as on norepinephrine
| (stimulants) and serotonin (cocaine).
|
| There are dopamine agonist drugs that go in and very
| precisely target different dopamine receptors in the brain,
| activating them directly. Many people are surprised to learn
| that a common side effect of these drugs is an irresistible
| urge to sleep when first taking them, for example.
| cluckindan wrote:
| >> in the drug treatment world it's basically known that
| drug abuse is almost always a reaction to some kind of
| psychological trauma or disorder,
|
| >This is not true in the professional world. People engage
| in drug use for many reasons, including pure recreation.
|
| Drug use != drug abuse
| static_void wrote:
| I would unironically say this is the _how_ of how adderall
| works for me.
|
| I am distracted from work by anxiety. With medication, I'm not
| distracted.
| gigaflop wrote:
| Generic Adderall Gang here, and in hindsight, I'm surprised
| at how little of it I need to realize a much better
| headspace. Makes me wonder if all of that caffeine in my
| undiagnosed youth was saying something...
| static_void wrote:
| I'd be interested in your thoughts more here.
|
| The problem with amphetamine is you pay for every benefit:
| focus now, lethargy later; energy now, anhedonia later.
|
| But taking a small, consistent dose. Does that work? Do you
| feel you net benefits in life from taking the drug,
| discounting for withdrawal and/or tolerance?
| Aurornis wrote:
| > The problem with amphetamine is you pay for every
| benefit: focus now, lethargy later; energy now, anhedonia
| later.
|
| > But taking a small, consistent dose. Does that work? Do
| you feel you net benefits in life from taking the drug,
| discounting for withdrawal and/or tolerance?
|
| There's a reason these medications are supposed to be
| taken regularly at the same dose in clinical practice.
| Patients should not be going through cycles of taking
| stimulants and then withdrawing all of the time.
|
| There's a disconnect between the way some people try to
| use stimulants ad-hoc versus the therapeutic modality.
| The initial burst of confidence, energy, and positive
| mood that comes from intermittent use is a side effect,
| but people confuse it with a primary effect. They can get
| into cycles of chasing it with dose escalations or taking
| it on random days while they exist below baseline on
| others. This isn't a winnable battle over time because
| the brain will adapt, not to mention all of those off-
| days start to add up and people around them notice the
| extremely inconsistent mood and performance.
|
| Unfortunately, misinformation about ADHD is all over the
| internet. I recommend ignoring basically anything that
| comes out of Reddit, Twitter, or TikTok because it's
| really that bad. Take medications as directed and set
| yourself up for some stability. Resist the urge to play
| with doses, take excess doses on some days, or try to
| play tolerance games. These never work in the long term.
|
| There's a simple heuristic: When you reach stability, you
| shouldn't really _feel_ the medication. It should be
| background noise. There 's a reason why young people who
| have been properly titrated on stimulant medications
| don't understand what the big deal is with their peers
| taking large doses (without tolerance) and then speeding
| around for a while. It's where the myth about ADHD people
| reacting differently to stimulants comes from. Proper
| treatment will settle to equilibrium and shouldn't
| produce overt feelings of being drugged or hyperfocused.
| hirvi74 wrote:
| The one issue I have never been able to overcome is that
| the medications are completely ineffective unless they
| induce hyperfocus. Now, it doesn't take me a lot to get
| into this state. I could easily enter such a state prior
| to medication, though I often needed (and still need)
| some kind of fuel -- intense desire or passion, impending
| deadline, etc..
| static_void wrote:
| What do you think about this?
|
| With XR, I feel less hyperfocus and more sleepytime
| disruptions. It's less strong so I take more, but it
| lasts longer so I get its effects when I don't need it.
|
| I feel like IR is actually less amenable to abuse.
| andoando wrote:
| In my experience, no. You just get used to it and it does
| fuck all. Maybe worse even. Adderall seems to take my
| creativity away entirely and I just feel like a zombie.
|
| Theres a host of physical symptoms that come with it to
| that are not fun to manage: decreased appetite,
| dehydration, headaches, sleep loss, heart palpatstions.
|
| I would say its far better to take it on a needed basis
| once in a while
| dns_snek wrote:
| Have you tried any other medication? Concerta/Ritalin,
| Strattera/atomoxetine, or any other non-stimulant
| medications?
| gigaflop wrote:
| > Focus now, lethargy later
|
| IMO, that's always just been _me_. Now vs Later is hard
| to judge, though, because I tend to have "good focus"
| blocks of time, and "chill blocks". Exact timing depends
| on my overall weekly schedule leading up to a time
| period.
|
| Also, I mentally classify different types of energy.
| Physical, social, and mental energies all have their
| different places in a day.
|
| > small, consistent dose
|
| For me, yeah, but YMMV based on brain chemistry and
| environmental variables. Since I use El Cheapo, I max out
| at 10mg 2x/day, but rarely adhere to that unless I'm
| planning ahead for it/have been on that roll for a while.
| This helps a lot with tolerance, especially when I have
| lazy weekends.
|
| And from a personal perspective: It's a very simple drug
| to understand, which makes me feel at ease. Brain goes
| vroom, like an engine hitting a more comfortable RPM. Not
| every situation needs my full power.
| hirvi74 wrote:
| Been on the various stimulants for a decade now:
|
| > _But taking a small, consistent dose. Does that work?_
|
| Typically, no; however, it's context dependent.
|
| > _Do you feel you net benefits in life from taking the
| drug_
|
| There are diminishing returns overtime, but there is
| still some benefit to be had.
|
| > withdrawal and/or tolerance?
|
| Both are real and awful to deal with.
|
| Is it all worth it? I tend to flip-flop back and forth a
| lot on this.
| hnick wrote:
| I can't find it right now but I recall seeing somewhere
| that around 40% of ADHD patients reported better effects
| on Ritalin (methylphenidate) or dexamphetamine roughly
| equally, another 40% says both are about as good as each
| other, and the final 20% don't find either very
| effective.
|
| In my personal testing the Ritalin was much better,
| dexamphetamine was more up/down and shorter lived.
| However I didn't really get a crash or lethargy with
| either, it's just the focus wearing thin (and yes, the
| benefits were real and massive starting for the first
| time in my forties).
|
| According to my psych, both have been around 70+ years
| and are fairly well understood. Longer term therapeutic
| doses shouldn't be habit forming and tolerance is minor
| after the initial phase, there's no withdrawal effects
| and it's easy to forget to take a dose if your routine
| changes. My morning coffee is far more demanding in that
| regard.
| RansomStark wrote:
| I'm worried about my caffeine intake. ADHD diagnosed but
| never medicated.
|
| I've been a heavy coffee drinker since i was a teenager.
|
| I'm sitting at 13 double espressos today which is about
| average.
|
| Lately the instant sleepiness post coffee isn't worth the
| focus, and I'm starting the think medication would be a
| healthier choice
| gigaflop wrote:
| Take this with a grain of salt, but I use it as an ad-hoc
| benchmark: FDA recommended maximum daily limit on
| caffeine is 400mg. If you're regularly going above that,
| then (politely) consider whether you _should_ be.
| RansomStark wrote:
| 400mg is only about 3 doubles. Thanks for the heads up
| hnick wrote:
| Ritalin was a game changer. After the initial adjustment
| it just feels like it brings me up to normal, I'm not
| particularly stimulated (in fact my lack of wandering
| mind makes it easier to doze during the day), I just
| prefer coding to games etc. It feels like it unlocks
| access to natural reward mechanisms instead of chasing
| artificial feel-good rewards. I can't even listen to a
| YouTube video while coding when using it, which was a
| normal activity for me since my brain felt bored and went
| off on its own without it.
|
| Just mentioning because curiously it almost entirely put
| me off caffeine. I still enjoy my morning coffee as a
| ritual, but sometimes don't finish it. If I have another
| then the side effects are severe, Ritalin massively
| boosts those - nerves, jitters, hitting the toilet. Not
| terrible or dangerous, but just interesting, and honestly
| caffeine never did a whole lot for me mentally so it's no
| big loss.
| SequoiaHope wrote:
| Indeed, I was surprised both at the fact that it literally
| makes me feel better because the drug makes you feel good but
| also that it calmed my brain down and let me access some
| inner peace. But also the focus modification is big and I
| learned so many good habits that now I need much less of it
| to get stuff done. I wake up and start doing my chores before
| I even have my first dose!
| hirvi74 wrote:
| > it literally makes me feel better because the drug makes
| you feel good but also that it calmed my brain down and let
| me access some inner peace.
|
| I mean, there is a reason why it's a controlled substance
| and is heavily abused all across the world. It works and it
| works _well._
|
| Though, I've been on it for about a decade now, and I have
| lost a large majority of the benefits it once provided.
| voytec wrote:
| It's weird that there's no mention of adrenaline (epinephrine)
| and noradrenaline (norepinephrine). Dopamine is only a precursor
| for a broader chemical reaction. All three - with dopamine - play
| crucial roles in our bodies' stress response system, and
| definitely with fear reactions. Dopamine is just a
| neurotransmitter. tyrosine -> dopamine ->
| (beta-hydroxylase) -> noradrenaline -> Phenylethanolamine
| N-methyltransferase > adrenaline
| Aurornis wrote:
| > Dopamine is only a precursor for a broader chemical reaction.
|
| No, dopamine is a signaling molecule that participates directly
| in this functionality.
|
| You're right that it's just a neurotransmitter, but the
| relative pathways about how they're produced are irrelevant for
| this study. They looked at how dopamine binds to certain
| receptors in certain parts of the brain under certain
| conditions.
| voytec wrote:
| OK, maybe not "just a precursor" but still "just a
| neurotransmitter".
|
| I've read "The Molecule of More" and as much reasonably
| looking material I could find on the subject to "understand"
| my ADHD and fight it w/o meds. And I still feel dumb. Could
| you please explain how dopamine "participates directly in
| this functionality"?
| gbnwl wrote:
| FTA: "The team showed that indeed they express "D1"
| receptors for the neuromodulator. Commensurate with the
| degree of dopamine connectivity"
|
| There are receptors specifically for dopamine on the
| amygdala neurons. Dopamine molecules are released by the
| pre-synaptic neurons, travel across the synapse, and bind
| to these receptors.
|
| Dopamine's role in the nervous system is not simply an
| intermediate on the pathway to produce epinephrine or
| norepinephrine. If you thought like this you'd reach the
| conclusion that testosterone is simply a precursor to
| estrogen because the pathway to convert it exists in some
| tissues of the body.
| voytec wrote:
| The more I read and interact with people like you, the
| dumber I feel. Thanks. I'll read up.
| fellowniusmonk wrote:
| I gotta say that since doing beta blocker enhanced therapy I've
| basically wrapped up any emotional response to past trauma and
| can examine all that stuff fully without having to protect
| myself. Pretty great stuff.
| hollerith wrote:
| Which beta blocker did they give you (or prescribe for you)?
| fellowniusmonk wrote:
| Nebivolol.
| isomorphic wrote:
| This line in the article is _horrifying_ :
|
| > The researchers were surprised that when they activated VTA
| dopaminergic inputs into the aBLA they could reinstate fear even
| without any new foot shocks, impairing fear extinction.
|
| That... seems like the first step in being able to literally
| _induce fear_ without having to bother with pesky things like
| finding the subject 's triggers. Although I suppose if one has
| direct access to the subject's amygdala, the point is somewhat
| moot.
|
| Still, it's sort of like a reverse wirehead.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wirehead_(science_fiction)
| exe34 wrote:
| I feel like this would deprive the FSB/ICE/law-enforcement
| officials of their entire motivation for taking pride in their
| jobs. Automate the paperwork, yes, but let the psychopaths have
| their fun!
| XorNot wrote:
| Torture is ineffective for information recovery.
|
| Those organizations do it because they want to, not because
| it works.
| Havoc wrote:
| >extinguish fear after a peril has passed
|
| Surprised that there is no mention to extreme sports in this.
|
| Big "what a rush" moment right after the person does something
| extreme and survives. Big dose of adrenaline in there not just
| dopamine but the parallels seem striking
| pessimizer wrote:
| Also "Duper's Delight."
| Aurornis wrote:
| When you see headlines (or hear podcasters) talk about dopamine
| and other neurotransmitters, remember that neurotransmitters are
| merely signaling molecules.
|
| The correct way to interpret this study is that dopamine is part
| of the signaling chain involved in fear extinction. The specific
| details of where, how, and when that dopamine moves through the
| brain are important.
|
| The wrong way to interpret these studies is to think of dopamine
| as a "level" within the brain that goes up and down. Resist the
| urge to assume that taking a dopamine-modulating drug will result
| in this specific outcome.
|
| Dopamine response within the brain is very complicated and region
| dependent. When encoding aversive stimuli (things you learn to
| avoid) there is evidence that dopamine signaling decreases in
| some brain areas while it increases in others:
| https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S235215462...
| That's just the tip of the iceberg. Don't fall for the trap of
| thinking that dopamine does just one or two things in the brain.
| wizzwizz4 wrote:
| (The "brains are computers" analogy needs to _die_ , but) it's
| a bit like saying "hard drive activity increases when a file is
| being secure-erased". _Yes_ , but also, _no_.
| dboreham wrote:
| Neurotransmitters are just "global variables" to the GPU. What
| the variable does or means is trained. Probably trained in the
| context of "I/O" signals. E.g. if the chemical also speeds up
| heart rate or breathing then that becomes part of the training
| data set. So Dopamine can potentially "do" different things in
| different examples of the same animal, if environmental
| training data is sufficiently different.
| Aurornis wrote:
| > Neurotransmitters are just "global variables" to the GPU.
|
| No, neurotransmitters are very local.
|
| Dopamine exists all throughout your body, including your
| bloodstream. The dopamine in one location is uncoupled from
| the dopamine in another location. The dopamine in your
| bloodstream can't get into your brain. Dopamine within the
| brain doesn't spill over into entirely different regions of
| the brain.
| shemtay wrote:
| is it not true though that activity/threshholds of dopamine
| synapses can be globally or semi-globally up and down
| regulated?
| loa_in_ wrote:
| Not true. Down/up regulation happens in areas where
| (sometimes called) psychoactive substances and/or
| regulatory nervous signals reach. Substances that cross
| blood brain barrier still might not reach areas due to
| lowered blood flow or tissue damage.
| dayvigo wrote:
| No, activity and expression are always local.
| Exclusively. There are no global levers.
| Aurornis wrote:
| It is not true.
|
| It's unfortunate that so many podcasters have leaned into
| the myths about being able to manipulate dopamine as some
| global up/down thing you can adjust by following certain
| protocols.
|
| Andrew Huberman is among the worst at this because he has
| enough education that he should know better. I think he's
| too enamored with the traffic and clicks he gets when he
| talks about dopamine, so he's willing to stretch the
| truth or even break it completely if it will make for
| engaging podcast content.
|
| Some of the studies he cites over and over again about
| dopamine don't even say what he claims. Huberman is a
| joke among people who actually know the science, but he
| became a hero to people who thought he was just a nice
| guy sharing free knowledge with them.
| braebo wrote:
| Would you say the harm outweighs the good Huberman does
| with his ability to communicate complex concepts in ways
| that are more digestible to laymen?
| keybored wrote:
| Turned out that people learning about <scientific thing
| existing> just lead to them making a fetish out of it, like
| it's discrete switch in their brain that gets bumped when they
| eat a donut.
|
| I wonder what even the point is.
| bravetraveler wrote:
| I wonder what even the point is.
|
| To either sell junk or believe _' $problems'_ are one
| purchase/dance/act away from resolution, matter of
| perspective. Folks want things, others want to take
| advantage.
|
| Not to be completely dismissive, placebo/mysticism/whatever
| _can_ work
| gsf_emergency wrote:
| However.
|
| > _Not to be completely dismissive_
|
| A whole series of essays based on the above, dismissing
| <deep learning>, <venture capital>, <LLM>, <blockchain>,
| <compute-based consumer platforms>,
|
| Remains to be written! dopaminergic take:
| who doesn't want to take on journeys of discovery fuelled
| by other people's (even entire GDPs-worth of?) time and
| money :)?
|
| just have to hope that the details turn out to be much more
| interesting (wit-sharpening) than the premise, heh
| procaryote wrote:
| We should figure out which chemical makes them behave like
| that and make pills against it!
| aaroninsf wrote:
| You're 100% right,
|
| and,
|
| I can say that my own experience is that correlating my own
| exposure to stimuli I have found fear-inducing, while on
| dopamine-modulating drugs,
|
| has proven highly efficacious in overcoming those fears.
|
| No A/B, results may vary, etc.,
|
| but personally I have had life-changing results.
| aaroninsf wrote:
| If one were to assume--which I recognize we certainly can't--
| that there was in fact some sort of causality here,
|
| one interpretation would be that some specific drugs operate
| on relevant aspects of (or modulate the behavior of) the
| stipulated systems in a manner consistent with the desired
| outcome,
|
| which allows for a neat summary in casual language,
| regardless of the complicated specific internal mechanisms.
| wyan wrote:
| What types of dopamine-modulating drugs are we talking about,
| if it's ok to ask?
| Aurornis wrote:
| Without details it's impossible to know what you're talking
| about, but it should be noted that the early phases of using
| stimulants or abuse-pattern usage (e.g. doubling doses before
| doing something, or even taking cocaine or other recreational
| drugs) is well-known to be associated with a heightened sense
| of confidence.
|
| This doesn't work forever (tolerance) and other people will
| experience the opposite effect with heightened anxiety.
|
| If you want an example of why it's not a blanket true
| statement or an easy solution for fear extinction, consider
| that stimulant use at excess dosages or abuse-pattern usage
| frequently ends in paranoia, where users are in such deep
| fear that they start sensing danger everywhere.
| agumonkey wrote:
| I assume that some process also evaluate the memory patterns
| associated with a stimuli/concept and then adjust the signals
| emitted after exposure ?
|
| I'm very very interested in this topic (I have some issues on
| that front) so if anyone knows books about neurology regarding
| trauma. Feel free to suggest me books or articles. Thanks
| ZYbCRq22HbJ2y7 wrote:
| Like saying a loud noise can cause an avalanche
| pgt wrote:
| I'm still reading the paper, but dopamine rebalances neuronal
| weights, so I'd be surprised if it _did 'nt_ change fears and
| aspirations.
| carlgreene wrote:
| This is a really cool study--finally shows that dopamine isn't
| just about reward but actually acts as the "all-clear" signal
| that lets the brain unlearn fear. By watching dopamine neurons
| light up when an expected shock doesn't happen, and then using
| light to tweak that pathway, they prove dopamine release in the
| amygdala actively drives extinction rather than just tagging
| along. It's exciting because it hints at new ways to boost
| therapies for PTSD and anxiety by tweaking that VTA-BLA circuit
| or D1 receptors
| amanj3777 wrote:
| Great
| justanotherjoe wrote:
| I don't know why more attention here is not put in appreciating
| the headline. What a brilliant, insightful line. Simple. Abstract
| enough to apply to many things that you experienced just begging
| to be synthesized, but haven't.
| vanjajaja1 wrote:
| I was thinking something similar, i know i'm going to build
| skyscraper high arguments that hinge on just this headline
| elia_42 wrote:
| The role of dopamine in superimposing new positive experiences on
| past fear-related memories is interesting. I am curious to see
| the possible effects on therapeutic treatments.
| seydor wrote:
| It's amazing how many pioneering studies about the anatomy of
| memory engrams come from Tonegawa's lab (who is already a
| Nobelist on another field)
| castillar76 wrote:
| This is a fascinating finding! As someone with a neurodivergent
| brain (and kids with it as well), I'm wondering if this has
| something to do with the greater degree of anxiety in
| neurodivergent brains, which often have trouble processing
| dopamine the same way neurotypical brains do.
| michaelbrave wrote:
| This could explain the link between why so many with ADHD also
| tend to have anxiety, since ADHD could roughly be considered a
| lack of dopamine (I know it's more complex than that, but it is a
| significant portion of it).
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