[HN Gopher] What Is "Induced Atmospheric Vibration"?
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       What Is "Induced Atmospheric Vibration"?
        
       Author : belter
       Score  : 126 points
       Date   : 2025-04-29 12:30 UTC (1 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (physics.stackexchange.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (physics.stackexchange.com)
        
       | belter wrote:
       | "Diagnosis and Mitigation of Observed Oscillations in IBR-
       | Dominant Power Systems - A PRACTICAL GUIDE" -
       | https://www.esig.energy/wp-content/uploads/2024/10/esig-rpt-...
        
       | juancn wrote:
       | "Real electrical systems have to deal with issues of reactance
       | and other exciting math-heavy constructs designed to drive you
       | into some other field of study."
       | 
       | They had me at this
        
         | SoftTalker wrote:
         | Wonder how much complexity using AC adds to this? With DC you
         | would not have to worry about frequency and phase matching. But
         | then you need to convert the DC back to AC at some point.
        
           | Cthulhu_ wrote:
           | Some parts of the energy transmission grid are DC, but looks
           | like it's mainly international, undersea, and long-range
           | transmissions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-
           | voltage_direct_current
        
             | sam_lowry_ wrote:
             | And only because long-distance transmission is more
             | efficient.
        
           | raverbashing wrote:
           | > Wonder how much complexity using AC adds to this?
           | 
           | Summarizing a couple of year of very annoying electrical
           | studies: Yes
           | 
           | You can't believe how much
        
             | formerly_proven wrote:
             | On the other hand, having a continent-scale AC grid is not
             | just possible but common. Europe and North Africa have one,
             | Russia has one, China has one, the US has two or three.
             | Meanwhile multiterminal HVDC is basically experimental
             | stuff that's only possible with real-time digital control
             | systems.
        
               | raverbashing wrote:
               | Having a worldwide data network is also only possible
               | with real-time digital control systems as well
               | 
               | The issue is one of technology (having high powered
               | switching components only took of in the last 30? yrs or
               | something) and legacy
               | 
               | (Edit: IGBTs are from the 80's though it seems the 1st
               | generation wasn't that great, IGCTs from the late 90s
               | https://mb-drive-services.com/experience-with-igct-based-
               | vfd...
        
           | lazide wrote:
           | (Efficient) High voltage AC is 'easy' due to how well
           | transformers work, how durable they are, and how simple they
           | are. AC does have issues with inductive loss when buried (or
           | near anything conductive), however. For the same reason
           | Transformers work and are awesome.
           | 
           | High voltage DC is hard as it requires solid state components
           | which are expensive to make, and prone to blowing up (aka
           | relatively fragile). AC to DC and vice versa also adds non-
           | trivial losses.
           | 
           | High voltage DC (to a first approximation) doesn't suffer
           | from inductive losses however, which makes it much more
           | efficient when near conductive stuff like the ground or
           | seawater.
           | 
           | It's also 'simpler' (doesn't have things like phase or
           | frequency) which is convenient if doing things like
           | transferring power between two power grids with dissimilar
           | frequencies or phase.
           | 
           | They each have their place.
        
             | thmsths wrote:
             | I believe high voltage DC also does not suffer from skin
             | effect. Meaning that the current is transmitted through the
             | whole conductor, not just the surface, leading to less
             | material needed for the same current rating.
        
           | mannykannot wrote:
           | I imagine AC makes things considerably more difficult.
           | Reactance is a consequence of inductance and capacitance,
           | which cause current and voltage changes to be out of phase
           | with each other. While the current on a DC transmission line
           | will vary, it will not be reversing every ~10 milliseconds,
           | and I suppose the voltage will be very steady except during
           | startup and shutdown.
           | 
           | On an AC transmission line, I suppose any corona discharge
           | going on shuts off and restarts every time the voltage
           | reverses. They make a characteristic buzz in humid
           | conditions.
        
           | idiotsecant wrote:
           | That's easy enough to say but big iron power electronics are
           | orders of magnitude more expensive than copper windings and
           | magnetic steel laminations , both in terms of capital cost
           | and maintenance. It's also _dramatically_ harder to
           | extinguish DC arcs so switching gear and substations need
           | more expensive designs as well. The grid could not exist at
           | present, let alone 100 years ago, if we operated it all DC.
           | Over time more and more of it will shift to DC, particularly
           | for long haul, but AC has enough advantages that 's it's
           | unlikely to ever go away.
           | 
           | I'm short, it's this way for a reason. The complexity is
           | nessessary.
        
           | thenobsta wrote:
           | All of it, I guess. That phasor is always complex.
        
             | codethief wrote:
             | Ha, I was waiting to see a comment with the obvious pun to
             | be made here. :)
             | 
             | For non-physicists: https://electronics.stackexchange.com/q
             | uestions/128986/why-u...
        
           | formerly_proven wrote:
           | I think the contrary is true. Frequency and phase matching is
           | a feature, not a bug. Because AC gives you frequency, and
           | frequency is not just easy to measure but also easy to have
           | accurate references and very immune to noise, it is also not
           | influenced by step-up/step-down transformers. This makes
           | balancing an AC grid possible. Frequency below the set point?
           | Increase power output. Frequency above? Reduce. As an added
           | bonus, this happens to exactly match up with how synchronous
           | generators work. So you get a fairly robust way for many
           | distributed power plants to collectively coordinate power
           | output _without additional communication_ just by agreeing on
           | the physical quantity which we can measure with the highest
           | precision of any quantity very cheaply.
           | 
           | That is not possible with DC.
        
             | sam_lowry_ wrote:
             | Bingo! So many people miss this.
        
           | f1shy wrote:
           | DC comes with another 1000 problems. It wouldn't be any
           | better, really.
        
         | belter wrote:
         | Reactance is such a beautiful French word...It just reminds you
         | of some frustrated romantic attempts in a Paris scenario. :-)
         | 
         | But your electrical supplier will charge you for it. Had a
         | electrical power teacher with a past employment at a power
         | supplier, who sadly loved to brag how he used to terrorize
         | small farms when their own power generators had a cos ph below
         | 0.98. I think the rule for Portugal is cos ph above 0.97 and
         | for Spain 0.95 also known as el coseno de phi...
         | 
         | "Cos-phi compensation" - https://fortop.co.uk/knowledge/white-
         | papers/cos-phi-compensa...
        
       | ANarrativeApe wrote:
       | Excellent accessible explanation.
        
         | formerly_proven wrote:
         | All of these seem to be more or less conjecture on a seemingly
         | lost-in-translation phrase though?
        
       | Asmod4n wrote:
       | Can this be mitigated by putting the cables under ground? Just
       | curious, since it's a huge debate here at times because of the
       | massive cost of doing so.
       | 
       | Germany needs a connection from the coast into the south and most
       | of it as of now will be build under ground.
        
         | SoftTalker wrote:
         | I had always heard that underground is workable for local areas
         | but the really high voltage long-distance lines are hard to
         | insulate undergound (on pylon towers they are not insulated at
         | all).
        
           | masfuerte wrote:
           | High-voltage DC is frequently used for undersea transmission.
           | This is necessarily insulated.
           | 
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current
        
             | schainks wrote:
             | High voltage DC is effective above ground, too. At high
             | enough voltage, it's actually cost effective and has fewer
             | electrical losses than the AC equivalent. China has been
             | doing some cool investments on high voltage DC in the past
             | 15 years or so. We're talking 750 kV and above IIRC.
        
           | lazide wrote:
           | There are significant inductive losses with having AC under
           | ground - dirt is conductive enough you end up with induced
           | current (inductive losses) in it. Same with seawater.
           | 
           | It's doable; but for longer distance runs when buried or
           | under seawater, it's usually more economic using DC which
           | doesn't have that issue.
        
         | Cthulhu_ wrote:
         | This article explains some issues with underground high tension
         | cables [0]:
         | 
         | > Laying a 380-kV high-voltage line underground poses a number
         | of risks. The electrical behaviour of underground cables
         | differs from that of overhead high-voltage lines. This results
         | in a loss of transmission capacity. To compensate for this
         | loss, additional devices (e.g. coils) have to be installed at
         | various points along the route.
         | 
         | > The combination of cables and coils creates resonance similar
         | to a radio where multiple jammers continuously change
         | frequency. Cables and coils can cause disruption locally,
         | jeopardising the stability of the entire grid. In addition, it
         | is easier for Elia to identify faults and carry out maintenance
         | on overhead lines.
         | 
         | [0] https://www.elia.be/en/infrastructure-and-
         | projects/infrastru...
        
         | Vox_Leone wrote:
         | >>Can this be mitigated by putting the cables under ground?
         | 
         | Yes, it can (apparently), since these are mostly indirect
         | effects of atmospheric vibrations (aka 'wind'). The vibration
         | itself isn't usually the root cause of a blackout -- but it
         | sets off a chain reaction that leads to one (line contact/short
         | circuit; conductor breakage; overcurrent & load shedding;
         | protection system malfunction or overreaction, etc.)
        
         | lurk2 wrote:
         | You may find this video by Practical Engineering to be
         | interesting: "Repairing Underground Power Cables Is Nearly
         | Impossible"
         | 
         | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-wQnWUhX5Y
        
         | schainks wrote:
         | It's vastly more expensive to put cables underground, and high
         | voltage cables underground is in the realm of Bad Ideas because
         | you're putting a high voltage physically near the electrical
         | ground (the earth's crust), which adds cost, reduces
         | reliability, and poses a serious danger to all living things
         | near the line.
         | 
         | Sure, there may be exceptions that might make it worth while.
         | However, if long distance high voltage underground wires was
         | practical and cheap, you would see deployed much more often.
        
       | goda90 wrote:
       | My state, Wisconsin, has had a long political and legal battle
       | over the construction of high voltage lines from the Madison area
       | to Dubuque, Iowa. Opposition ranges from aesthetics to wildlife
       | conservation to it just being a waste of money.
       | 
       | One line of arguments I found intriguing is that the lines should
       | be buried instead of on towers, for a multitude of reasons. The
       | company building it would extract profit and then long term
       | maintenance would fall on the state. If the lines were buried,
       | there'd be less maintenance caused by weather events, less
       | transmission losses, and overall more efficient and resilient
       | operation.
       | 
       | Obviously burying such lines has much higher up front costs and
       | the companies looking to profit don't want to pay it.
        
         | lurk2 wrote:
         | > If the lines were buried, there'd be less maintenance caused
         | by weather events, less transmission losses, and overall more
         | efficient and resilient operation.
         | 
         | You may find this video by Practical Engineering to be
         | interesting: "Repairing Underground Power Cables Is Nearly
         | Impossible"
         | 
         | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-wQnWUhX5Y
        
           | bell-cot wrote:
           | Here's the text version:
           | https://practical.engineering/blog/2021/9/16/repairing-
           | under...
           | 
           | Noteworthy: That power line is only 10 miles long. Madison to
           | Dubuque would be about 10X longer.
        
         | toast0 wrote:
         | > If the lines were buried, there'd be less maintenance caused
         | by weather events, less transmission losses, and overall more
         | efficient and resilient operation.
         | 
         | It's a tradeoff. _When_ there is an issue with underground
         | lines, it 's much more expensive to locate and diagnose the
         | fault and repair it; in both dollars and time.
         | 
         | In that area of the country, the ground freezes in winter, and
         | digging becomes very difficult, which would make repairs that
         | much more delayed and expensive.
         | 
         | Also, depending on requirements, it may be possible to augment
         | capacity ny adding a second transmission line to the existing
         | towers at a later time; that would be much less expensive than
         | setting up the first line; but for undergrounding, such a
         | project would most likely be as expensive as the first time, if
         | not more. Similar with replacing the line at the end of its
         | service life (although if the line and the towers have a
         | similar service life, replacing them both brings costs back up
         | similar to the initial project)
        
       | jonlandrum wrote:
       | Why were all the answers provided by new contributors? Don't see
       | that very often.
        
         | belter wrote:
         | Was posted less than 24 hours ago...
        
           | jonlandrum wrote:
           | That's not how Stack Exchange works, though. You don't have
           | to register for a new account every time you leave an answer.
           | The replies were all from new accounts, not established ones.
           | I don't think it has anything to do with the amount of time
           | since the question was asked.
        
         | panki27 wrote:
         | Not necessarily "new to StackExchange", but at least to the
         | physics site.
        
         | kylehotchkiss wrote:
         | I think a lot of people here would agree that AI/LLMs got them
         | off of stackexchange (not just stack overflow) and it's
         | refreshing to not have to deal with the moderation's instant
         | "did you google" / "duplicate question". These new contributors
         | will learn and switch over to chat.com soon enough
        
       | guerby wrote:
       | "With inverter-based power storage, generation, and transmission,
       | the grid can now react incredibly quickly. This is good when they
       | do the right thing, but can be very bad when they do the wrong
       | thing."
       | 
       | I'm wondering if this will be like the 2016 South Australian
       | blackout
       | 
       | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_South_Australian_blackout
       | 
       | "AEMO identified software settings in the wind farms that
       | prevented repeated restarts once voltage or frequency events
       | occurred too often. "
       | 
       | Grid operators are currently mostly against renewable and so they
       | impose "blunt" disconnect rules on inverters behind renewable
       | sources, and this comes to bite the grid when the proverbial shit
       | hits the fan.
       | 
       | May be in the end this will be a good thing and grid operators
       | will start to treat inverters and renewable as a strength and
       | modify grid regulations as needed.
        
         | reaperducer wrote:
         | _Grid operators are currently mostly against renewable_
         | 
         | As someone who moves a lot, it's always curious to me that grid
         | operators vary so widely on this.
         | 
         | Some places (like where I am now), the grid operator hates
         | renewables and especially rooftop solar.
         | 
         | Other places, the grid operator will actually subsidize rooftop
         | solar because it they say it reduces the amount of generation
         | it has to do, thus saving money on infrastructure and
         | maintenance.
         | 
         | Of course, each location has wildly different climates, but the
         | regional politics aren't that different, so I don't think it's
         | about ideology.
        
           | shadowgovt wrote:
           | It depends heavily on their market incentives. If the local
           | power company is also in charge of the wires, less load on
           | the wires means less cost. In a market where distribution and
           | generation are different operations, generation only cares
           | about whether anyone's going to buy the electricity they want
           | to put on the wire and you saying "No thanks, I'm full" is in
           | direct competition to their interests (and existence as a
           | firm).
        
             | idiotsecant wrote:
             | Huh? Transmission networks get directly financially
             | rewarded for more power flowing in the form of wheeling
             | charges. It's wild reading HN discussions of topics that I
             | actually know about. It makes me wonder how much I can
             | trust the discussions I _don 't_ know about.
        
               | pjc50 wrote:
               | This is very jurisdiction-dependent, isn't it? And
               | different for nationalized operators like the UK?
        
               | tekla wrote:
               | I know things about airplanes. The discussions here about
               | airplanes is laughable, below wikipedia level.
        
         | shadowgovt wrote:
         | Funny enough, the effect of inverters on the grid may be
         | mitigated with a relatively simple solution: add a flywheel to
         | the inverter-based connection farms to "fake" a turbine.
         | 
         | The wind or solar farm drives the flywheel and if the grid-side
         | power starts to fluctuate, it pulls on the flywheel before the
         | inverters feel it. You lose some total efficiency in the
         | electrical-to-mechanical-to-electrical conversion, but get
         | enough flywheels and maybe you don't care (because they also
         | act as a place to store peak energy production when demand is
         | low).
        
           | dainesy wrote:
           | How Wind Turbines Generate Electricity
           | 
           | 1. Mechanical to Electrical Energy Conversion * Wind Energy
           | Capture: The wind pushes against the blades of the wind
           | turbine, causing them to rotate. These blades are attached to
           | a central hub, which turns a low-speed shaft. * Gearbox (in
           | many turbines): This shaft is connected to a gearbox, which
           | increases the rotation speed. The gearbox drives a high-speed
           | shaft connected to the generator. * Generator: The high-speed
           | shaft turns the rotor inside a generator. As the rotor spins
           | inside a magnetic field, it induces a flow of electricity--
           | typically alternating current (AC)--using electromagnetic
           | induction.
           | 
           | Some turbines use direct-drive generators (no gearbox),
           | especially in offshore installations, which reduce
           | maintenance.
           | 
           | 2. Power Conditioning and Grid Integration * Variable Speed
           | Generation: Wind speed varies, so the output frequency and
           | voltage can fluctuate. Wind turbines typically use power
           | electronics (converters and inverters) to stabilize the
           | electricity before it's sent to the grid. * Inverter Role:
           | Converts variable-frequency AC or DC from the generator into
           | grid-compatible AC (usually 50 Hz or 60 Hz depending on the
           | region).
           | 
           | 3. Phase Angle and Synchronization
           | 
           | What Is Phase Angle? * The phase angle represents the timing
           | difference between the voltage waveform of the turbine's
           | output and the grid's voltage waveform. * For a generator to
           | supply power effectively, it must match the phase, frequency,
           | and voltage of the grid. * If the phase angle is off, power
           | cannot flow efficiently and may even cause instability or
           | damage.
           | 
           | Synchronization Process * Before a wind turbine connects to
           | the grid, its inverter adjusts the output so that: *
           | Frequency = Grid frequency (e.g., 60 Hz) * Voltage = Grid
           | voltage * Phase angle = Aligned with grid phase * Once
           | synchronized, the turbine can export power.
           | 
           | 4. Ancillary Services Provided by Wind Turbines
           | 
           | Ancillary services are support functions that maintain the
           | stability and reliability of the power grid. Modern wind
           | turbines, especially with advanced inverters and control
           | systems, can provide several key services:
           | 
           | A. Frequency Regulation * Wind turbines can rapidly adjust
           | output to help balance supply and demand. * This is called
           | primary frequency response, essential when there's a sudden
           | change in load or generation.
           | 
           | B. Reactive Power Support / Voltage Control * Inverters can
           | produce or absorb reactive power, which helps maintain
           | voltage levels on the grid. * This is important for power
           | factor correction and avoiding voltage collapse.
           | 
           | C. Inertia and Synthetic Inertia * Traditional turbines (like
           | in coal or gas plants) provide rotational inertia, helping to
           | resist sudden changes in frequency. * Wind turbines, being
           | decoupled from the grid by power electronics, don't naturally
           | provide inertia. * However, some advanced systems provide
           | synthetic inertia by rapidly adjusting power output in
           | response to frequency changes.
           | 
           | D. Black Start Capability * Some wind turbines can assist in
           | black start procedures (restarting the grid after a
           | blackout), but this is still limited and evolving.
        
             | dainesy wrote:
             | Different set up but same physics apply. I was called out
             | to a cold forming press which basically was hammering an
             | enormous load onto billets of steel to form panels for the
             | automotive industry.
             | 
             | The problem on inspection: The drop press was producing
             | inconsistent strikes, especially noticeable when working
             | with thicker steel billets. The machine seemed to struggle
             | during the initial drop phase, and there was an unusual
             | amount of sparking observed near the motor's commutator.
             | This problem was consistent with poor commutator
             | maintenance and misalignment or excessive vary to the
             | variable angle brush set up.
             | 
             | Whilst the motor was spinning the commutator was cleaned,
             | after shut down the brushes were replaced and adjustaded to
             | the optimal position ensuring they're neither advanced nor
             | retarded. By correctly adjusting the brush angle, it
             | restored the proper phase relationship between the armature
             | current and the stator's magnetic field. This adjustment
             | improved torque production during the drop phase, reduced
             | electrical arcing, and enhanced overall motor efficiency.
             | 
             | In brushed DC motors, the brush angle determines the timing
             | of current delivery to the armature windings. An advanced
             | brush angle means that current is supplied earlier in the
             | rotation cycle, which can increase torque at higher speeds
             | but may cause excessive current draw and heating at lower
             | speeds.
             | 
             | Conversely, a retarded brush angle delays current delivery,
             | potentially reducing torque and efficiency under load.
        
         | idiotsecant wrote:
         | Grid operators are, as a rule, not opposed to renewables at
         | all. They are 'opposed' to resources that do not provide
         | frequency support and are non-dispatchable. Renewables need
         | storage to be well behaved. As soon as we start factoring that
         | into the build at scale the problems go away. Generators want
         | to ignore all the inconvenient physics of power transmission
         | networks and just want $$$ for MW. The system doesn't work if
         | enough people operate like that.
        
           | guerby wrote:
           | You're completely wrong about this.
           | 
           | Inverters if told so can do frequency support better and
           | cheaper than any other solutions.
           | 
           | No other technology can react as fast as an inverter.
           | 
           | See the Texas grid grid service market which is now
           | completely dominated by GW of inverters.
           | 
           | https://comptroller.texas.gov/economy/fiscal-
           | notes/infrastru...
           | 
           | "One solution is to connect inverters with "grid-forming"
           | capabilities, which help mitigate this risk by limiting
           | fluctuations outside of 60 Hz, increasing grid stability.
           | Experts see utility-scale batteries as a prime opportunity to
           | deploy grid-forming inverters to the grid, as grid-forming
           | integration with batteries is cheaper and faster than
           | building new transmission."
           | 
           | "grid-forming" inverter is just software and parameters, your
           | el-cheapo home solar inverter can do it too. It currently is
           | prevented from doing so by ... grid operator regulations
           | which ask it to disconnect at the first issue.
        
             | metalman wrote:
             | it also needs silicone carbide, which is the substance
             | behind transformerless, inverter based grid power switching
             | 
             | https://www.powerelectronicsnews.com/silicon-carbide-sic-
             | ena...
        
             | idiotsecant wrote:
             | Let's talk about how you think inverters do frequency
             | support without storage, which was the central point of my
             | post.
        
               | silon42 wrote:
               | They could easily have some spare/unused solar capacity
               | (say 10%) and use it when frequency drops.
        
         | toast0 wrote:
         | > "AEMO identified software settings in the wind farms that
         | prevented repeated restarts once voltage or frequency events
         | occurred too often. "
         | 
         | > Grid operators are currently mostly against renewable and so
         | they impose "blunt" disconnect rules on inverters behind
         | renewable sources, and this comes to bite the grid when the
         | proverbial shit hits the fan.
         | 
         | As a distributed systems person, this seems like a
         | coordination/communication problem. If a single node is having
         | repeated events, it may likely be broken and staying offline
         | could be a better choice. If multiple nodes are having repeated
         | events, maybe it's better for them to stay connection and do
         | their best.
        
       | 6d6b73 wrote:
       | It's a fake term, used by the government to hide the real cause -
       | deteriorating magnetic field, that will flip in 15-25 years, but
       | we will start seeing a lot of issues similar to that event more
       | often.
        
         | matkoniecz wrote:
         | [citation needed]
        
       | widea wrote:
       | April 1 already?
        
       | kazinator wrote:
       | Accepted answer posits that this may be due to a mistranslation
       | from Spanish, or someone's misunderstanding of an explanation, or
       | both.
       | 
       | In other words, the phenomenon is another "vegetative electron
       | microscopy".
        
         | jhayward wrote:
         | That answer has 4 upvotes. A much more electrically literate
         | answer above it, with 35 upvotes, explains in detail that it is
         | a real thing.
        
           | kazinator wrote:
           | The accepted answer is not electrically illiterate in any
           | way.
           | 
           | The upvoted answer, while it may be correct, doesn't argue
           | for the existence of the phenomenon called "induced
           | atmospheric vibration".
           | 
           | It may be that it's supposed to refer to corona discharge,
           | which does make a sound ("atmospheric vibration"). But that
           | sound is not the root cause of anything; it is just a side
           | effect of no consequence.
           | 
           | It is a plausible hypothesis that "induced atmospheric
           | vibration" it's just someone's misunderstanding (possibly of
           | an explanation similar to what's in that upvoted answer),
           | with some misstranslation being a contributing factor.
           | 
           | The two answers simply don't contradict each other.
        
       | rasz wrote:
       | Spanish grid operator (Red) preliminary Engineering Report seems
       | to be blaming renewable generation (solar) for the initial drop
       | followed by second drop 1.5 seconds later.
        
         | perching_aix wrote:
         | Where can one find the report? Couldn't find anything on their
         | website or elsewhere. I was only able to find the following
         | media briefing via Reuters [0]:
         | 
         | > REE's System Operations Chief Eduardo Prieto told a news
         | briefing the electricity system was hit by a dramatic power
         | generation loss in southwestern Spain, that caused instability
         | in the system that led to its disconnection from the French
         | grid. He said it was quite possible that the affected
         | generation was solar, but it was too early to say for sure.
         | 
         | This doesn't quite read like them _blaming_ solar either. If
         | anything, they 're painting it as one of the victims of the
         | failure.
         | 
         | [0] https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/spanish-grid-
         | operators-...
        
       | acyou wrote:
       | I think they might have been referring to conductor gallop, power
       | line sag, and subsequent fault. I read synchronisation failure as
       | downed cable. With extreme temperature variations come extreme
       | winds. Not sure if this was the case.
        
       | whitehexagon wrote:
       | Interestingly, the recent deadly floods were also blamed on a
       | rare atmospheric event. Sadly, it seems official information
       | during such events is just as rare.
       | 
       | No power is unusual, but happens, but no mobile phones, no
       | internet, no emergency broadcasts, SMS or otherwise, just
       | complete silence for hours... and then you hear it might be
       | multi-country wide. Pretty scary. You assume the worst, right?
       | 
       | What was also scary to see was how little cash people have. The
       | cash machines went down, queues formed, banks closed, POS
       | terminals failed, and suddenly the smart-world we are building
       | was looking very dumb.
       | 
       | Imagine not being able to buy basic essentials like medicines,
       | food and water. Hopefully more people will reject cards / digital
       | money as a result of this crisis.
       | 
       | But I also wonder what contribution the massive new solar farms
       | and wind farms had on this crisis. That supply must be quite
       | variable, and subject to rare atmospheric events such as
       | clouds...
       | 
       | Sorry to rant, it was a pretty upsetting experience.
        
       | perching_aix wrote:
       | This news cycle was pretty hilarious (and just as sad) to hunt
       | through.
       | 
       | From what I deciphered, the actual suggested cause was "aeolian
       | vibrations" [0], which is one of the three forms of wind-induced
       | conductor vibrations according to this [1] IEEE article. Also
       | known as "flutter" according to Wikipedia [2]. (I'm not in EE so
       | can't confirm nor debunk.)
       | 
       | Connected to this, another seemingly made-up term that made the
       | news cycle was "Ging-induced vibrations" (in Portuguese media).
       | Now, I don't speak Portuguese, but all my efforts hunting down
       | this mysterious Ging tremendously failed. However, when I plopped
       | ging into translation models, I couldn't help but notice that
       | "ginga" in Portuguese means "swing", as in cable swing. So I'm
       | giving it pretty reasonable chances that "ging" (no
       | capitalization) might be what "flutter" is in English, i.e. the
       | industry slang for "aeolian vibrations" there. And then the rest
       | was just a typical journo move, much in the way of "the hacker
       | known as 4chan".
       | 
       | In any case, it would have been cool if anyone actually _linked_
       | to where said company made their statement, so that people could
       | independently verify what was actually being said. From what I
       | read, they have since explicitly debunked that they were
       | inventing any new niche atmospheric effects. It 's incredibly
       | disheartening that such basic bits of information can become this
       | seriously distorted before going viral, even (especially?) in
       | this day and age. Makes you wonder how trustworthy are the
       | regular news, even biases nonwithstanding, that aren't so readily
       | obvious to be bollocks.
       | 
       | [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-VzxRfPHjU
       | 
       | [1] https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/4773888
       | 
       | [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stockbridge_damper#Wind-
       | induce...
        
         | plorg wrote:
         | I'm part of a listserve for power systems engineers (more from
         | academia than from industry) and the consensus seems to be that
         | a couple of trips in short succession caused wild swings in
         | powerflows, resulting in a cascading failure - this is a pretty
         | boring, if consequential, N-2 event, very similar to the 2005
         | Northeast Blackout in the US.
        
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