[HN Gopher] Eurorack Knob Idea
___________________________________________________________________
Eurorack Knob Idea
Author : po
Score : 214 points
Date : 2025-04-25 13:19 UTC (9 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (mitxela.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (mitxela.com)
| itomato wrote:
| I'm just waiting for the Eurorack Boombox revolution to hit.
| diggan wrote:
| Interesting idea for sure, but how is the feel of actually
| turning the knob? Seems to offer short to no resistance, which
| would make fast but precise movements pretty hard, something that
| is important for things like performances.
|
| What would be a huge bonus point (but maybe unrealistic? I don't
| quite understand how the current implementation actually works)
| would be software-configurable resistance (physical, not
| electrical). I've spent a lot of time for my DIY modules to find
| the right knobs, or the right process to adjust the resistance of
| my existing knobs, being able to control that digitally could
| introduce a whole new level of fun.
| scottapotamas wrote:
| You might enjoy https://github.com/scottbez1/smartknob
|
| The complexity of this approach (ignoring the display and
| flair) unfortunately means you won't see this used too often
| due to cost.
| diggan wrote:
| That's so cool on so many levels, and I really enjoyed that
| indeed, now I have to fight the urge to try to build it
| myself, good thing it's weekend.
|
| However, it does seem to miss the single most useful feature
| (for me) which is the resistance part. I understand there is
| a DC motor controlling the snap points and whatnot, but what
| I'd like is constant resistance I guess, to a configurable
| level, rather than snapping to specific points and such.
|
| I don't think it would be possible to hack on top of the
| already made hardware, but didn't seem like it was already
| done in the software side of things, although I did skim
| through things so maybe I missed it.
| pakue wrote:
| Should be doable to add that. The BLDC needs to add a
| proportional (or any other function) force against the
| rotation direction until it reaches 0.
| diggan wrote:
| Sounds reasonable, wonder how that would actually feel in
| real life? As far as I understand, this would pass
| through digital parts, adding a little bit of (maybe
| noticeable) latency, but I wonder if the latency gets
| high enough for it to be a bit jarring that the
| resistance is dynamically changing as you apply torque.
| scottapotamas wrote:
| This is all fairly normal in robotics, under a subset of
| (slightly overloaded naming sorry) "impedance control"
| adolph wrote:
| A differently complex and smaller approach might be to
| combine the knob with with an axial flux PCB-BLDC, like what
| Carl Bugeja made [0, 1]. It might be suited to get haptics in
| something as small as the article's knob, although to get an
| in-built display you'd have to use one of those displays that
| fit in lego bricks [2, 3] with a slip-ring.
|
| 0. https://microbots.io/products/motorcell
|
| 1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVszJMlvZcA
|
| 2. https://github.com/AncientJames/uGrey
|
| 3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0pUV_3qeHog
| diggan wrote:
| Many thanks for the links/references. I don't really care
| about the display itself (probably prefer without it
| actually), but never saw those other links before,
| interesting stuff.
| weinzierl wrote:
| My dream is a piano keyboard with entirely software
| controlled mechanical key response. Every key individually
| mounted on a servostepper. As a bonus it could be used as a
| fake player piano. Or for practice you could make the wrong
| keys hard to press. Endless possibilities.
| Q6T46nT668w6i3m wrote:
| Great idea and I'm shocked this doesn't exist.
| robotresearcher wrote:
| It would likely be very, very expensive.
|
| A compromise that is affordable and does exist is
| programmable _response_ curves to key velocity and
| aftertouch pressure. It can make sense to have different
| curves for eg. piano vs harpsichord even if you can't
| change the mechanical key impedance.
|
| I haven't seen it in the wild, but using this you could
| make the wrong notes quieter/louder or even play a
| different sound. But I think we all know when we play a
| wrong note, so the utility might be small.
| mrandish wrote:
| > key velocity and aftertouch pressure.
|
| Just a tangential note to say whenever I see these terms
| in discussion of MIDI keyboards it reminds me how
| disappointed I am the vast majority of MIDI controller
| (and multi-thousand dollar flagship synth) keyboards
| _still_ don 't fully support per note velocity or
| polyphonic aftertouch. It's only been 40 years kids...
| (sigh).
| adamgordonbell wrote:
| > Or for practice you could make the wrong keys hard to
| press.
|
| This seems like a pretty cool idea
| tarentel wrote:
| I'm not convinced it would work very well on making you a
| better player but who knows. Either way, it sounds like a
| good way to injure yourself. Piano is a very percussive
| instrument and if you're hitting the keys with any force
| and they don't give the way you expect them to I imagine
| that won't be very great for your joints.
| vhcr wrote:
| The Yamaha Disklavier has solenoids on every key, so you
| could disable every key but the one you want by moving them
| downwards.
|
| It already has a similar feature called SmartKey:
| https://www.youtube.com/shorts/_Qj33POZCyA
| mrandish wrote:
| > the right process to adjust the resistance of my existing
| knobs
|
| I too have "a thing" about the feel of tactile control elements
| ranging from the tensioning of knobs and joysticks to the
| dampening on sliders, the force on my emulation arcade cabinet
| buttons and, of course, the keyswitches, o-rings and lube on my
| computer mechanical keyboards.
|
| However, I don't really feel a need for software control of the
| tensioning feel. For example, I have a few different high-end
| dual-joystick radio control transmitters for RC aircraft. These
| have fairly pricey hall effect joystick mechanisms and the good
| ones have a tensioning adjustment for each axis on the bottom.
| Whether on these RC transmitters, my arcade cabinet or high-end
| console game controllers I find it's sufficient to simply set
| the tensioning to my preferences once and I don't feel the need
| to change it again.
|
| So for the EuroKnob, I agree having no tensioning would be
| pretty awful - as there's little worse than a floppily loose
| knob wiggling about - but for me a simple friction-based drag
| adjustment would be fine.
| bondarchuk wrote:
| > _It 's a nice dream, of a synthesizer where any knob can be
| pulled out and replaced with a patch cable, and any jack can have
| a knob plugged into it to set it to a fixed value._
|
| What's even better, though, is a coupled knob + jack where the
| knob turns into an attenuator for the input when a cable is
| plugged in, and works as a standalone knob otherwise. I think
| this is quite a common design.
|
| I believe I've also seen patch cables with built-in attenuators.
| kennywinker wrote:
| Another common pattern is jack + offset. The most useful is
| when you have jack + offset + attenuator... but most modules
| pick one or the other for space reasons.
| BlandDuck wrote:
| Totally. Also, an attenuator is easier and cheaper to
| implement, because it just requires normalizing V+ into the
| jack plug. An offset requires an adder.
|
| My preference is: attenuator < offset < attenuator + offset.
| I see no benefit of having to remove the knob to get to the
| jack as proposed in the article.
| nine_k wrote:
| The benefit is saving space. Imagine a 10x10 grid of such
| jack / knob inputs.
| robotresearcher wrote:
| The attenuator-inverter is super handy too. A gain knob that
| goes from -1 to +1 X.
| malthaus wrote:
| the smartest pattern is used in mutable instruments beads, the
| "attenurandomizers"
|
| it packs a ridiculous amount of functionality into a single
| plug & knob combo
| enneff wrote:
| This is why I really like Intellijel's designs. They generally
| have attenuators on the inputs for which it makes sense, and
| those attenuators are the small stick knobs. While they use
| larger knobs for more central module functions.
|
| Eg: https://intellijel.com/downloads/manuals/rubicon_manual.pdf
| Fredkin wrote:
| Site doesn't load: SSL_ERROR_RX_RECORD_TOO_LONG
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| It's interesting. I haven't been sucked into the Eurorack thing
| though -- do people want not just patch cables all over their
| mixing desk but knobs as well?
|
| Eurorack (and modular synths in general) seem like funny things.
| Like guitar pedals, I sense there are a lot of enthusiasts that
| do a lot more tinkering than actually _playing_ them. Watching
| Rick Beato and guests on YouTube ... seems like a lot of
| musicians are looking instead for simplicity. Like a few good
| sounding pedals that, ideally, each have just a knob or two.
|
| Maybe the synth-heads are in a whole different headspace though.
| tym0 wrote:
| It's somewhat similar to people enjoying developing their game
| engine more than their game in my experience. Provably why in
| attracted to it despite having little musical talent :)
| diggan wrote:
| > It's interesting. I haven't been sucked into the Eurorack
| thing though -- do people want not just patch cables all over
| their mixing desk but knobs as well?
|
| I don't personally feel the need of wanting more cables all
| over my current setup, but sometimes I have had the feeling of
| "Oh if I could just modulate the VCF Cutoff on my Zen Delay
| with a patch cable from my modular instead of doing it
| manually" for some of the desktop units I have next to the
| modular.
|
| And on the other side, I've also felt the need of having some
| of the patch holes replaced by knobs, so I could just twist and
| turn it to evaluate if I want to modulate it, instead of having
| to actually setup the patch. I could see something like this
| knob-idea being very useful for that, basically prototyping
| patches.
|
| > I sense there are a lot of enthusiasts that do a lot more
| tinkering
|
| This is definitely true, large parts of the community is about
| tinkering more than making music. But the same is true for
| programming, large parts of the community is not about problem
| solving, but coding. That's fine, we all have different
| motivations :)
|
| What I found really useful (for myself at least) is to try to
| connect with people who are artists first, who just happen to
| be using modular synths, rather than finding people tinkering
| with modular synths who don't actually produce/perform music.
|
| > I haven't been sucked into the Eurorack thing though
|
| Good for you :) A friend pulled me into this dark abyss a month
| ago. Lots of fun, so many distractions, but lots of fun. Helps
| that Barcelona (where I live) have a lively community around
| modular synths as well. It is expensive though, and VCVRack
| doesn't come close to providing the same experience.
| semi-extrinsic wrote:
| > And on the other side, I've also felt the need of having
| some of the patch holes replaced by knobs, so I could just
| twist and turn it to evaluate if I want to modulate it,
| instead of having to actually setup the patch.
|
| That could be an interesting spin on this idea. A
| freestanding PCB with a jack plug on the back and a knob on
| the front. Turn the knob, and the jack sends CV accordingly.
| Maybe with a velcro based system to have the PCB stay still
| while you twiddle the knob.
| bondarchuk wrote:
| Maybe they are tinkering, but sounds still come out while they
| are tinkering. So maybe they're playing music after all? The
| idea that if you're not recording and releasing tracks you're
| doing it "wrong" is a bit silly IMO. Just strumming a guitar or
| playing some chords on a piano without recording any of it was
| always an "acceptable" hobby and not considered "unmusical",
| playing with synths and sequencers is no different IMO.
| JKCalhoun wrote:
| You're right. Someone's hobby could be "noodling" -- with a
| guitar, synth, etc.
| ericwood wrote:
| > Like a few good sounding pedals that, ideally, each have just
| a knob or two.
|
| It makes for a nice narrative but I haven't found it holds much
| water; musicians are all over the place on this spectrum.
| You'll find both extremes very well represented, and a good
| chunk of people who compartmentalize their "dayjob" music and
| tinkering. I've found a lot of successful musicians love to
| tinker and are always on the search for new inspiration. Like
| any good craftsperson they take some amount of pride in their
| tools and I've been blown away by how technical many can get on
| the electronics side! It's always funny to see Reverb auctions
| go up for famous musicians and finding out a bassist in a pop
| punk band owns a bunch of weird synthesizers :)
|
| Simple one to two knob pedals are a big deal but you'll see a
| very large number of pros touring with extremely complicated
| modeling setups and all sorts of gadgets. At a certain point
| you really know what you want, and having the ability to dial
| that in is important! I tend to gravitate towards simplicity in
| a band setting but I know a lot of people who want dirt pedals
| with 10 knobs so they can dial in the sounds they hear in their
| heads.
| butlike wrote:
| Your pedal board/modular synth is a reflection of your
| personality.
| ericwood wrote:
| Just like real life I have a tidy put together functional
| board, then a disturbing spaghetti mess tucked away in a
| corner that few are allowed to see
| robotresearcher wrote:
| I swing bimodal on this. For a while I enjoy the most exotic
| modular patches and loaded pedalboard. Then for months I am
| all about piano and acoustic guitar, as vanilla as can be.
|
| It's all so deep I'm not going run out of fun in any mode.
| ericwood wrote:
| 100%, there's weeks I just plug straight into an amp
| because that feels right! At the end of the day it's great
| to have options.
| tricky wrote:
| I'm the same on the guitar side. I'll go weeks using a
| fractal fm9 straight into the PA. it's like playing through
| a computer which is awesome. however...
|
| I'll get real sick of the complexity and go back to my
| cranked tube amp and one overdrive pedal.
|
| If I had to choose one, I couldn't.
| butlike wrote:
| The knobs tend to be the "public API" and the patch cables the
| wiring up of the functionality to that public API. having a
| knob for each patch is akin to making every method 'public'
| instead of protected or private.
| geerlingguy wrote:
| Watch some episodes of LOOK MUM NO COMPUTER for an example of
| the kind of tinkering/creativity _some_ people at least love to
| have available in the physical realm:
| https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCafxR2HWJRmMfSdyZXvZMTw
|
| A lot of the music is made just playing with different parts of
| the sound, and having all the controls exposed to be messed
| with can lead to more creativity.
|
| IMO, kind of like how I enjoy Linux configuration files, in a
| way, more than I do a GUI that covers up 90% of the guts of an
| application or server software.
| 2mlWQbCK wrote:
| My favorite documentary I have not seen (yet), I Dream of Wires
| from 2013, about modular synthesizers. I know in some trailer
| there was a maker of modules saying something to the effect
| that if only people actually making music with their synths
| bought modules he would be out of business. Can't find that
| trailer now or I did not watch carefully enough now. There are
| a few different ones on youtube.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQSxqha62j0
| chabes wrote:
| I'm pretty sure the person who said that quote about non-
| professional musicians who purchase Eurorack modules was Paul
| Schreiber, who passed away about a month ago.
|
| Gonna look it up, and I'll edit this post when I find out.
|
| Edit 1: Didn't find the quote from the film yet, but did find
| [1]this video (unedited interview from I Dream of Wires)
| where Paul explains how he himself is not a musician, but
| rather an engineer.
|
| [1] https://youtu.be/6ixv4F4XD4Y
|
| Edit 2: Still haven't found it.
|
| I have the film at home, but I'm traveling in Europe at the
| moment, so it is out of reach for me currently.
| m_kos wrote:
| Don't get sucked into modular hardware synths. They are TONS of
| fun, but it is a very expensive hobby. Monotrail Tech Talk has
| a few excellent videos on YouTube, but he must have spent a
| fortune on his gear.
| kgwxd wrote:
| I got sucked into it a little over a year ago, it's starting to
| wear a bit thin for me already though.
|
| > I sense there are a lot of enthusiasts that do a lot more
| tinkering than actually playing them
|
| It's called "sound design" :) Can't start on a song until the
| timbre of my never-quite-done-this-way-before saw tooth bass is
| juuuuuuust right.
| malthaus wrote:
| i'm happy someone is considering new physical ideas/approaches
| at least as i find the trend in recent years of basically
| putting full "computers" into eurorack modules ridiculous. not
| just raspberry pi's behind a eurorack plate but with full
| configurability / user interfaces.
|
| the release of the 4ms meta module was when i decided to be
| happy with what i have because it's becoming an unironic
| misguided circlejerk of sorts
| c0nsumer wrote:
| For me I pretty quickly realized that I like synths to make
| sounds, or maybe a bit of programming (with wires!) to make an
| electronic music box.
|
| But making songs? Just not for me... And that's a whole
| different thing.
| mrandish wrote:
| > I haven't been sucked into the Eurorack thing though
|
| I'm the same. I love playing around with making electronic
| music on a hobby level and I find the idea and look of modular
| synths appealing - and I'm also a pushover for most retro
| things, especially those with cool knobs and blinkenlights.
| However, if I'm honest, I don't really enjoy creating music
| with modular or vintage analog "knobby" synths. I haven't ever
| bought a modular rig and my vintage analog synths are lovingly
| packed away with my numerous retro Amiga, Atari and Commodore
| computers where they wait to be enjoyed in limited doses on
| special occasions.
|
| So, to address your implied question, IMHO I don't think people
| like us are somehow "missing" something deep and great in
| modular synths. To me, the essence of the modular appeal is
| three things: 1) tactile feedback that's responsively
| immediate, 2) a set of compatible 'lego block' components which
| can be combined in creative ways, and 3) An element of
| randomness from the combined interactions on analog components.
|
| While modular rigs offer all three of those things, having
| those three together doesn't require analog hardware or a
| dedicated modular rig. I think I can get a very similar
| creative feeling and joy of discovery (plus a smidge of
| randomness) from the right combination of high-quality MIDI
| control surfaces and a well-chosen set of synth plug-ins
| running on a computer. To be sure, some MIDI control surfaces
| are crap and not all synth plug-ins enable creative
| experimentation deep enough and easy enough to 'scratch that
| itch'. But, then again, it's possible to assemble an ill-
| conceived modular rig out of poor quality components that also
| fails to inspire creativity. While finding that unique balance
| of factors sufficient to trigger creative serendipity isn't
| trivial with either analog hardware or digital MIDI + plug-ins,
| to me the advantages of digital in cost, size, speed,
| repeatability and flexibility win out.
|
| I guess it's possible there's some other essential element
| which analog modular rigs provide that I'm missing out on but
| if so, I haven't been able to discover what it is.
| enneff wrote:
| There's definitely a thing in music, as in computing, or
| golfing, or whatever, where some people are more into the gear
| than the actual practice of doing the thing. Modular synths are
| a great outlet for those kinds of people.
|
| I have a modest Eurorack setup and a few other synths and I
| find them a nice way to get into music making without looking
| at a computer. It's nice to have a limited set of options,
| rather than a near infinite set of software plugins and
| presets. My gear can only make a certain number of sounds at
| once, and that's it. The liberty of constraints.
|
| When I get serious about a music project I inevitably end up
| working in a computer DAW but I often don't find that an
| inspiring place to start.
| dylan604 wrote:
| "It's a beautiful dream - a very expensive, but beautiful dream."
|
| While that might be true, what is expensive for me is chump
| change for someone else. However, that is very difficult to grok
| as there was no prices mentioned anywhere that I could see. Sure,
| it'll be expensive to me because I have to ask. But I also know
| that I cannot afford a fully spec'd out MacPro, but at least I
| can see the numbers.
| buescher wrote:
| This is so cool and so clever I'm in awe, really. I'm grinning
| from ear to ear looking at this and jealous I didn't think of it.
| But the problem it solves is not quite one that anyone has. What
| does it offer over a built-in knob with a jack that overrides it
| beside compactness? A knob that's not designed for feel that you
| can misplace?
|
| There's a miniature case study in thinking about innovation here.
| This is what the germ of a really neat idea looks like but you
| have to keep going and that's hard.
| CamperBob2 wrote:
| As he mentions in the video, the whole motivation is
| compactness. When your panel looks like
| https://learningmodular.com/the-eurorack-expansion-project/ ,
| every mm^2 matters.
|
| I'd be tempted to eliminate the patch cord altogether by using
| one of those pushbutton pots. Normally it would act like a
| traditional pot, but if you push it, it would go into a mode
| where you could choose from a variety of nearby inputs
| wirelessly.
|
| The LEDs next to the pot would need to be an OLED display that
| indicates the selected input. Some form of extremely
| lightweight mesh network for control connections would need to
| exist, something with very low bandwidth and short range but
| also low latency. After 5 or 10 years' worth of tinkering, it
| might actually synthesize some sounds.
| buescher wrote:
| Right - it solves the compactness problem but introduces new
| ones. That said, from what I've seen of other people's
| modular setups, keeping them from growing without bound does
| not seem to be the highest priority in that world.
|
| I'd also have to wonder how well a jack would hold up under
| regular use as a bushing. It's very common for engineers with
| little exposure to the connector industry (not my background
| either, but I read the data sheets and app notes) to
| underestimate how highly engineered and optimized for their
| use case even decades-old connector types are.
|
| It would be nice to have something like the NKK display
| pushbuttons in the knob for a rotary encoder/pushbutton.
|
| >After 5 or 10 years' worth of tinkering, it might actually
| synthesize some sounds.
|
| Yeah.
| spankalee wrote:
| Wouldn't it be more universally compatible to have a powered knob
| that outputs a adjustable constant control voltage? You'd
| probably want trim adjustments on it too.
|
| Yes, there'd be an extra wire to the power supply module, but
| that seems fine for a modular.
| diggan wrote:
| > Yes, there'd be an extra wire to the power supply module, but
| that seems fine for a modular.
|
| Maybe other's modular synths look/work differently than mine,
| but when all the panels are installed, there is no way to pull
| a cable from underneath the panels/inside the case to the
| outside, without drilling new holes through some panel or the
| sides of the case. So not sure how you'd pull a cable from the
| power supply to the front side of a panel when it's closed like
| that. My case is a Intellijel Palette 104HP, maybe other cases
| expose the power supply to the outside?
| tpm wrote:
| Yes, but there are already many of these in modular form
| (usually attenuators normalled to +5V in the absence of input
| voltage or just fader modules without inputs). This is new :)
| arnorhs wrote:
| This looks super neat and probably a fun project to build.
|
| > It's a nice dream, of a synthesizer where any knob can be
| pulled out and replaced with a patch cable, and any jack can have
| a knob plugged into it to set it to a fixed value. Whether it's
| actually practical to build a synth like this I'm unsure. It
| would probably only be worthwhile if you applied it to every
| single control on the modular, which rules out using other
| people's modules. You would have to invest heavily into the
| Eurorack Knob Idea. You couldn't even port other modules that
| easily, as many of them would expect a real potentiometer,
| whereas the encoder can only produce a voltage. Coupling it with
| a voltage-controlled potentiometer would work, but would be even
| more expensive.
|
| Yeah, it's hard to imagine this fitting in nicely to everything
| since it's defintely more effort and work than just having a knob
| and a jack for the control of a particular thing. Esp. since most
| of the time, as a convention, you'll have a knob that controls
| the value, but when a jack is plugged in, this same knob acts as
| the attenuator for the signal.
|
| I would have appreciated having an image or a pdf of the
| schematic for the design to understand it properly - i can get it
| from your github but I don't have kicad installed on this
| computer.
|
| I'm esp. interested in the normalized behavior - ie. when you
| have a signal plugged in to the jack that is _not_ the
| potentiometer.. does it get passed through or does it have to go
| through this chip as well?
|
| Having to supply a 3V to this to make it work as well is also an
| extra requirement of its usefulness in normal eurorack circuits -
| not a total dealbreaker but that does add extra requirements, and
| extra components to one's design.
|
| Anyways... really cool idea :)
| joemi wrote:
| It's an interesting idea (truly a clever way to accomplish
| this!), but I think it's addressing the symptom, not the problem.
| The symptom is that some jacks don't have associated knobs. The
| problem is that either the module designer or the module user is
| overly obsessed with miniaturization. The designer is at fault if
| it's a parameter that really should have had a knob with the jack
| and they avoided including one in order to keep things small. The
| user is at fault if they're trying to stay so space-constrained
| that they can't fit a module that outputs an DC voltage set by a
| knob into their case. There are numerous modules that do this
| (and often that attenuvert as well) and many of them are fairly
| small too.
| jimbokun wrote:
| I liked the video focused on his hands, where his gestures and
| expressing the rough size and orientation of things added to his
| verbal description. Not sure if this is a common technique, but
| works very well for this topic.
| Gracana wrote:
| This Old Tony (a hobby machinist / welder on youtube) has made
| all of his videos in that format. It works very well!
|
| https://www.youtube.com/c/thisoldtony/videos
| moebrowne wrote:
| Anyone know what is being used to render the git repo for this?
| https://git.mitxela.com/euroknob
| devinvs wrote:
| looks like it's this: https://git.mitxela.com/web-git-sum
| butlike wrote:
| Fantastic idea except for the proprietary 3.5" knob. From the
| video it appears the magnet is required to discern position.
| alnwlsn wrote:
| > any jack can have a knob plugged into it to set it to a fixed
| value.
|
| I'm kind of surprised he didn't start with a knob with a tiny
| accelerometer, mcu and battery in it to produce some sort of
| output signal into a stock plug depending on how the knob is
| oriented with respect to gravity.
|
| Putting electronics inside the plug is nearly a mitxela
| trademark. https://mitxela.com/projects/flash_synth
| pea wrote:
| I was wondering this - I'd buy this if I could just plug it
| into my existing sockets. I'm pretty sure you could get 50-100
| hrs with a battery, but I wonder if you could have something
| that you wind-up like a mechanical watch.
| naikrovek wrote:
| Probably because pulling on cords can twist them. That's what I
| thought when this occurred to me.
| sigy wrote:
| Profit margins on eurorack are pretty damn low. And you need a
| lot of knobs and jacks and plugs. Even a hall effect sensor may
| be out of the sweet spot for cost.
| m_kos wrote:
| 1. I find Tim's work always so impressive and humbling. Compared
| to software, hardware projects seem infinitely more complex.
|
| 2. Speaking of knobs, I am writing a toy software synth for
| smartphones. Are there any design guidelines for mobile UI for
| audio? Knobs are hard to use and sliders take up a lot of space
| with only a little more precision. I experimented with curved
| sliders (inverted parabola or sine), but they are confusing since
| height doesn't really encode anything and the curvature is there
| only to make the slider longer. I didn't find any design systems
| focused on audio components.
| ecolonsmak wrote:
| Knobs shouldn't be hard to use - hold down the knob that needs
| the adjustment and then drag in either of two directions to set
| the value. Maybe have a pop-up over the knob that displays the
| value as it's in use.
| recursive wrote:
| Loopy Pro has a cool convention that I haven't seen elsewhere
| for this. Drag up or down to change the knob value. While
| doing that, drag left or right to zoom in. That makes the
| up/down movement more precise.
| m_kos wrote:
| I will look into it! Is this for mobile or desktop? I would
| like to see how they introduce this interaction pattern and
| what feedback they provide as you interact with the knob.
| recursive wrote:
| It's an ios app. IMO it's really good. I own exactly one
| apple product, and it's an iPad that only runs Loopy Pro.
|
| Here's a section from the manual that loosely explains
| the concept[1]:
|
| > Adjust a slider or dial's value by dragging up and
| down, or left and right for horizontal sliders. For finer
| control, move your finger away from the dial.
|
| [1]: https://loopypro.com/manual/#sliders-and-dials
| m_kos wrote:
| Thanks! This link is really great!
|
| My only Apple product is also an iPad, and I mostly use
| it to make music with Auxy Studio:)
|
| Do you use any fun apps on Android? Currently, my
| favorite apps are Digitron and Nanoloop. (No affiliation,
| but Digitron's upgrade was gifted to me.)
| recursive wrote:
| The only other music or audio app I use with any
| regularity is Reaper on Windows. I tend to do more
| performance-oriented stuff, and I try to keep everything
| outside the computer as much as practical. I don't use
| any software synths. I like the constraints and UX of
| dialing patches into my one keyboard/drum machine. I
| record some, but mainly I like to play in real time and
| not fiddle with VSTs and plugins.
| m_kos wrote:
| Thanks! For me, this works well for knobs that don't require
| frequent adjustments. Currently, my knobs have little pills
| next to them that switch a knob to a "precision mode." It is
| a little quicker, but you may need to remember to disable
| this mode next time you use the knob.
|
| I also played with the idea of letting users slide their
| finger off a knob (tap and slide away from the center). This
| allows for moving the finger over a longer circumference,
| hence enabling a great degree of precision. The problems with
| this approach are that it takes longer to operate such knobs,
| you need to communicate to the user what the max allowable
| distance from the knob is, it can interfere with scrolling,
| and it doesn't work for knobs close to the edge of the
| screen. (Your idea works well for knobs at the edges.)
|
| And this is just knobs! There are many other components,
| interactions between them, as well as associated
| accessibility challenges, haptics, etc. Instead of
| reinventing the wheel, I was hoping that human factors people
| had developed relevant guidelines, but perhaps it simply is
| not a prevalent enough problem.
| atoav wrote:
| As a fellow Eurorack circuit designer and university teacher on
| thst issue one immidiate issue I can see is one of practicality.
| Decent potentiometers are maybe a Euro per piece if bought in
| bulk, they have a start and an end which is nice and for analog
| gear you have direct control over the parameter, with very clear
| feedback what is going on -- _that is the main reason people want
| physical gear_. So add in a LED ring for visual feedback and
| endstops.. Might be nice for a digital module.
|
| But even then I'd wonder if it worth it, because of the high pcb
| space usage. With potentiometers as attenuators or attenuverters
| you can fit two pots next to each other in a space of 20mm which
| neatly aligns with the standard panel widths. Theoretically you
| could certainly get smaller with thst solution, but the hall
| effect IC needs to be accounted for as well. With existing pots I
| can use the space underneath. If your module is just 10mm wide
| that space is pretty premium..
| csours wrote:
| Ok, but why stop here? You've effectively created a rotary
| potentiometer in one dimension, you could add two more dimensions
| like an analog thumbstick on a game controller. Do any
| controllers have a twistable thumbstick?
|
| Also, like other commentors have stated - this could be a jack
| too, so you could have a jack knob analog stick.
|
| BUT WHY STOP THERE?
|
| You could mount it on a linear pot/slider.
|
| BUT WHY STOP THERE?! (help me)
|
| You could daisy chain pluggable rotary analog stick jack
| stacks...
|
| ----
|
| The madness has taken him
| tpm wrote:
| There are several 'joystick' controller modules (Doepfer
| a-174-4 or Intellijel Planar come to mind) and the Doepfer also
| produces 3rd signal by twisting the knob.
| mrandish wrote:
| > Do any controllers have a twistable thumbstick?
|
| Yes, several. For example, the main knob on the Komplete
| Kontrol S-series MIDI controllers (https://www.native-
| instruments.com/en/products/komplete/keyb...) combines a rotary
| encoder with four axis directional input, a push button and an
| LED indicator ring. I have an S61 and the implementation of the
| knob is delightfully intuitive, responsive and functional. To
| be clear, this implementation is not a joystick on a ball base
| with twistable knob, it's a flush-mounted knob that can be
| slightly nudged up, down, left or right with a single,
| satisfying click in each direction. I'd recommend trying it
| yourself, if only there were still any music stores that put a
| range of high-end midi controller keyboards out where customers
| could, you know, touch them.
|
| I actually came here to suggest the same idea for the EuroKnob.
| The four axis directional input is basically a D-Pad module
| commonly used in game controllers. I find this kind of rotary
| knob + directional input control to be very effective. However,
| there's one critical caveat. It's apparently possible to
| implement this kind of control poorly because I've also seen a
| couple devices where the implementation is as bad as the S61's
| is great. It probably just requires a certain degree of
| engineering finesse to nail a good combination of
| responsiveness and tactile feedback.
|
| > You could mount it on a linear pot/slider.
|
| As much as I like and agree with your first thought, I've
| actually seen the idea of a rotary knob combined with a linear
| slider - although it's extremely rare. Having touched one
| myself I can confirm the reason it's rare is that it's not
| _just_ bad - it 's _uniquely_ bad. By which I mean the
| combination of two controls which each work so well on their
| own into one combined control, is unexpectedly awful. I was
| unfortunate enough to try one first-hand (so to speak) at a
| tiny booth buried in the back of some long-forgotten NAMM show
| in the days when Cubase was still being demoed on an Atari ST.
| There was a bespoke mixer from a company I 'd never heard of
| with rotary knobs on their mixer's sliders. I'm pretty sure
| when I tried to adjust the two parameters at the same time I
| may have reflexively pulled my hand back and uttered "Ugh!"
|
| Usually I'm polite when trying out some novel interface idea
| but there must be something 'special' about trying to combine
| two very precise but divergent proportional motions on two
| different arm joins (wrist & elbow) at the same time that's
| deeply unnatural. It felt so weirdly wrong that I suspect some
| human factors kinesiologist has probably written an award-
| winning paper about how humans evolved to never, _ever_ do
| this. But hey, one out of two ideas is still a great day! :-)
| csours wrote:
| Thank you for taking my lunatic ravings semi-seriously!
| moffkalast wrote:
| Sanity wants you to stop? Just say no, sanity legally cannot
| stop you without your consent.
| m463 wrote:
| reminds me of The Parable of the King's Toaster...
|
| it ends with:
|
| _The king wisely had the engineer beheaded, and they all lived
| happily ever._
| dimal wrote:
| I like it, but the best modules already have knobs and jacks for
| everything. When you have CV going into the jack, the knob acts
| as an attenuator or attenuverter. This means that the modules are
| generally larger. Make Noise generally does this and their
| modules are consistently bigger than everyone else, and they're
| also some of the most popular. Look at Maths. It's a slope
| generator and a mixer. It's fucking huge. But everyone has it
| because it's patch programmable. The problem in Eurorack is
| instead of making things patch programmable, they try to fit in a
| ton of functionality into a small space, so you have a lot of
| modules that have multiple modes where buttons and knobs all have
| different meanings depending on what "page" you're on. Fuck that.
| Almost every time I try a module like that, I end up selling it.
|
| He's right about the interface being the point of Eurorack.
| Plugging things into other things is the whole point. When I have
| a module that has hidden state, I forget what state it's in or
| what the knobs mean. I end up avoiding those modules. With cables
| and knobs, I can _see_ the state of the whole system. I need good
| cable management to make sure it 's not spaghetti, but I already
| do that in code already, and it's not that different.
| smj-edison wrote:
| Tangential idea, but I've wondered if it would be possible to
| make synthesizers a lot cheaper by only having a couple rotary
| encoders. You could have hundreds of parameters on the panel, but
| each parameter would just be a neopixel LED and button. You could
| link the rotary encoder with a parameter by pressing it and the
| parameters' button at the same time. Certainly not as nice as a
| dedicated knob for each, but you'd also get an interface that is
| ~$40 instead of ~$600...
| mdpye wrote:
| There are loads of systems where every button and encoder has
| many functions, with modal or paged interfaces. But I'm trying
| to stick to a model of no hidden or ephemeral state with my
| modular, just for fun, I guess. Mostly analogue, so no non-
| volatile memory to store settings, the positions of the patches
| and knobs set everything, and the test is that if I power it
| down and back up it must come back doing what it was doing when
| the power went out (very long cycle lfos notwithstanding!)
|
| When a laptop can simulate anything, the physicality of the
| interface is most of the attraction, so might as well go all
| the way...
| smj-edison wrote:
| For sure! The interface is the most important part these days
| when practically everything can be emulated.
|
| In my design, I wouldn't say the state is hidden though--
| that's the point of having an indicator light with every
| parameter. The LED becomes the state visualization. So,
| write-wise, yes, it's overloaded, but read-wise it's not.
|
| I'm just now realizing I didn't explain that well in the OP,
| lol. And really this is more of a budget-friendly approach,
| rather than a user-friendly approach. I'm trying to meet
| those half way...
| sigy wrote:
| The physical interface is an intrinsic part of the design of
| any eurorack module, including artistic elements. If you
| actually use these, then you quickly tire of menu diving for
| simple options, and only modules that do very particular things
| make it worth the bother. For everything else, the layout must
| be accessible, memorable, understandable, and not too crowded.
| And it helps if the visual of the thing conjures up memories of
| how it sounds or what it does.
| d--b wrote:
| It's like real life functional programming.
|
| Can't wait for the y-combinator module.
| fitsumbelay wrote:
| E W
|
| A E M O S
___________________________________________________________________
(page generated 2025-04-25 23:00 UTC)