[HN Gopher] Assignment 5: Cars and Key Fobs
___________________________________________________________________
Assignment 5: Cars and Key Fobs
Author : Pikamander2
Score : 175 points
Date : 2025-04-24 09:53 UTC (13 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (web.stanford.edu)
(TXT) w3m dump (web.stanford.edu)
| trishmapow2 wrote:
| Did a high school project on the jam and replay attack mentioned
| here: https://github.com/trishmapow/rf-jam-replay. Low cost SDRs
| have been a real game changer in letting the average Joe get
| started in this space. Good to see that more unis have courses
| with this type of hands on experimentation.
| spacebanana7 wrote:
| One thing I would've liked about an Apple car is the security.
| Imagine FaceID, secure enclaves and MFA. An iPhone on wheels
| would be immune to most, if not all, of these attacks.
| jimktrains2 wrote:
| And then how do I loan it to a friend without the rigamarole of
| adding them as an authenticated user?
|
| What if I'm not able to add them as an authenticated user or
| authentic myself to let them drive, e.g. I'm injured or very
| drunk?
| krisoft wrote:
| > And then how do I loan it to a friend without the
| rigamarole of adding them as an authenticated user?
|
| By making adding an authenticated driver not a rigamarole,
| but easy and intuitive.
|
| > What if I'm not able to add them as an authenticated user
| or authentic myself to let them drive, e.g. I'm injured or
| very drunk?
|
| They call you an ambulance.
| jimktrains2 wrote:
| > By making adding an authenticated driver not a
| rigamarole, but easy and intuitive.
|
| We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't believe that this
| will be possible in many situations. What if I'm not near
| my car? What if my phone is dead? What if my car's battery
| is dead and it needs jumped?
|
| I'm also just cynical that the automakers or app developers
| are able to not enshittify the process.
|
| What if when I set my wife up I added her as a user but not
| admin and now she can't share with someone without having
| to involve me, which may not be physically possible in all
| circumstances.
|
| > They call you an ambulance.
|
| You don't call an ambulance to take a drunk person home.
| Calling a taxi when there is someone able to drive is a
| waste of money and a huge inconvenience the next day to
| retrieve the car.
|
| You also can't call an ambulance in the wilderness.
|
| I also meant injured in a more broad sense. What if I just
| have a bad headache or migraine? I don't want to be
| fumbling with my phone or car electronics trying to
| navigate adding someone.
| RandomBacon wrote:
| In the future?
|
| They call 911, and they read the license plate number and
| the authorities send an override signal that turns on the
| car and only allows it to be driven to the nearest hospital
| that appears on the screen on the console. If they go off
| course, they have 30 seconds to get back on course before
| it coasts into a 5mph limp mode (to find a safe place to
| pull over) for 1 minute before it completely stops and
| shutsdown and locks them inside for the police to come get
| them.
|
| Eh, the car will probably be self-driving at that point, so
| probably only the first half.
| mschuster91 wrote:
| The _last thing_ I want to see on any car is the ability
| for the government to just remotely hijack random cars.
| Not just because cops already and routinely abuse their
| privileges (imagine some crazy police officer doing that
| to their ex girlfriend!), but also because any such
| capability can and eventually will be abused by malicious
| actors. Think of the usual "for the lulz" trolls,
| organized crime rings involved in looting people, or
| nation-state enemies.
| abenga wrote:
| Aren't authorities notoriously unable to get into Apple
| products unless allowed?
| os2warpman wrote:
| I imagine the same way you share a key for a HomeKit-enabled
| smart lock.
|
| The only scenarios where one is so injured and/or drunk as to
| not be able to complete the non-rigamarolish process of
| sharing a HomeKit home key either by doing it themselves or
| walking someone through the process are ones where the key
| holder is so incapacitated that they would be unable to share
| a physical key.
|
| All of that is someone irrelevant because Express Mode is
| enabled by default, so if you are unconscious all a person
| has to do is pull your phone out of your pocket and use it to
| unlock and start your car the exact same way physical keys
| work in that situation. It even works if the phone's battery
| is dead.
|
| https://support.apple.com/en-us/118271
|
| Also, every implementation of CarKit Car Keys I have seen is
| the same as HomeKit home keys: there is a backup. Either a
| physical key, PIN, fob, or card.
| jimktrains2 wrote:
| > non-rigamarolish process of sharing a HomeKit home key
|
| I have not used homekit, but from some searches it only
| seems to be a non-rigamarole process to add someone as a
| homekit user if the other person has an apple device? Also,
| is the Internet required to enroll someone?
|
| > ones where the key holder is so incapacitated that they
| would be unable to share a physical key.
|
| I don't need to be conscious or my phone have battery (or
| reception) to have someone take a key from my pocket.
|
| > Also, every implementation of CarKit Car Keys I have seen
| is the same as HomeKit home keys: there is a backup. Either
| a physical key, PIN, fob, or card.
|
| I was responding to gp who wanted none of this as it all
| defeats the security they desired. A 1-factor physical
| authentication token as a backup would be suitable for
| nearly all edge cases I can think of. As long as the person
| carries it, but then we are at worst where we are today, at
| best I could potentially authenticate or add someone from
| afar.
|
| I'm not saying that smart locks aren't useful, just that
| they can't only be "smart", which I assume you would agree
| with since you brought up things currently having backup
| methods?
| woobar wrote:
| I have my BMW key in Apple Wallet. When I was out of town and
| needed to share the key with another person, all I did use a
| standard share sheet for the key. It let it share via SMS,
| email, AirDrop, etc.You can revoke the key later.
| 2rsf wrote:
| Which makes you dependent on a third party, that doesn't
| necessarily have the motive to keep it updated. Having a mobile
| as a secondary key is a better idea, my Polestar 2 has keys,
| but also an app that can use Face ID (or the equivalent Android
| security measure) to drive the car. Once the app is set up you
| don't need to carry the physical keys.
| sorenjan wrote:
| BMW has a page describing the use of UWB (Ultra Wide Bandwidth)
| radio in key fobs and how it helps against relay attacks. In
| short it's because the wide bandwidth allows for very short
| pulses which lets them measure the distance between the car and
| the key, and using a relay will inevitably add distance and
| therefore time between the signal is sent and the reply is
| received.
|
| https://www.bmw.com/en/innovation/bmw-digital-key-plus-ultra...
| H8crilA wrote:
| The core problem is that older systems never proved distance in
| any rigorous sense, they only proved connectivity/liveness.
| Pretending that you're closer than you are is sometimes called
| in research "the mafia fraud attack".
| pwarner wrote:
| I believe this was ratified into a standard so it should show
| up in more new cars. https://carconnectivity.org/car-
| connectivity-consortium-publ...
| relaxing wrote:
| Only two lecture slide decks?
|
| Did the professor get tired of uploading the material for
| students to review post lecture?
| H8crilA wrote:
| BTW, car keys (physical keys) are notoriously weak, generally
| susceptible to simple raking attacks. You can learn how to rake a
| lock in a few minutes, and the rake+tensioner itself costs around
| $5. And all cars include a physical key as a backup entry method.
| This was partially solved by adding another device that cuts off
| the engine, the immobilizer, which still allows the attacker to
| get in, but not to drive off.
| XorNot wrote:
| The thing is if you have time to rake a car lock, you can also
| just break the window if you're going to rob the interior.
|
| The key fob attack is superior since no one looks twice if you
| walk up to a car, it unlocks from a hand held device and then
| you get in and drive off.
| H8crilA wrote:
| It is superior, but a lot more difficult to pull off. And
| what if raking takes just 5-15 seconds? Because that's how
| fast it often is.
|
| And in either case you still need to deal with the
| immobilizer, and turn the core of the ignition lock. Unless
| your radio device is that comprehensive :)
| Crosseye_Jack wrote:
| Presuming its a modern car (and if we are talking about
| keyless entry/start we are), well then you just plug an
| "Emergency Start Device" into the OBD port or to the BCM
| module, and drive away. Heck a lot of these "Emergency
| Start Devices" can also unlock the car, but often involve
| pulling panels/lights from the car to get to the can bus to
| run the attack.
|
| So that attack when done on its own is mainly left to
| stealing cars off drives at night rather than say from a
| supermarkets car park during the day.
| kevin_thibedeau wrote:
| Push-to-start eliminates the need to turn a physical lock.
| They drop to zero security once their RF is broken.
| Crosseye_Jack wrote:
| With practice raking doesn't take that much time and
| "usually" comes with the benefit of not tripping the alarm
| that the door was opened (because the car "thinks" the door
| has just been unlocked with a key).
|
| <EDIT> Seems HN has different experiences with their cars
| then my own, So I'll concede the idea that the alarm doesn't
| trip when using the key. It seems the cars I've had in the
| past are the exception to the rule. </EDIT>
|
| The thing is, in the real world, no one really looks twice
| when someone gets into a car unless they are using obvious
| brute force to get into the car.
| HPsquared wrote:
| I think that mechanical key behaviour depends on the car.
| I'm pretty sure my BMW sets off the alarm if I use the
| mechanical backup key, but it turns off when I put the key
| in the ignition slot.
| Crosseye_Jack wrote:
| Yeah, I think it is car dependant. But the car I use
| (gave up my own car, but the family has a shared "work
| horse" car we are all insured on.) is a 10 year old UK
| Ford fiesta and that car doesn't trip the alarm if the
| door is unlocked with the key, and its not the
| transponder in the key, cause one of the keys to that car
| doesn't have a transponder and the keys get mixed up from
| time to time (So you only know you have picked up the
| wrong key only when you insert the key into the ignition
| and the immobilizer light is a solid red light - 3 keys,
| one with a fob, 2 without a fob, one of which has a
| failed transponder chip in it, these two keys look the
| same and not one of us has been arsed enough to take both
| keys to the car, figure out which doesn't work and label
| it :-P).
|
| (One day, when I can be arsed, I'll rekey the car and
| reprogram it with fresh transponders, but today is not
| that day!)
| dornan wrote:
| Put a piece of tape or some paint on the handle part of
| the no-transponder key so you don't mix it up any more.
| Less effort than the "full-arse" solution.
| Crosseye_Jack wrote:
| We keep saying we are going to do something like that,
| but we keep forgetting because we normally in "Go do
| task" mode when we grab the keys. Its not too much of an
| issue because we will normally grab the fob key, it only
| becomes and issue when one of us forget to put the fob
| key back when being done with the car.
|
| But "reprogramming" a key (more like adding a key) on
| that model of ford just involves doing a dance with the
| fob key then inserting the key with the new transponder.
| So we plan to get all keys working on the car at some
| point. I was just going to order a new chip but my bother
| was complaining about the key barrel being a bit loose on
| him so just doing to replace everything at some point.
| Its just more about not being lazy about it :-P
|
| Thing is, its what we call "the work horse" car of the
| family, it gets used about once a week to do tasks no one
| wants to do in their own cars (or when I need to do
| something in a car), so its not really a high priority
| thing to fix, but if we are going fix it might as well do
| it "right")
| testing22321 wrote:
| I had a non electronic key cut for my Jeep so I could zip
| tie it under the frame for emergency use. It will not start
| the engine, but does open the door locks. When I open the
| doors with it, the alarm goes off.
| Kirby64 wrote:
| Not true for most alarm systems. If the car is locked, then
| any opening without the key fob unlock button will trigger
| the alarm in my experience.
| xeromal wrote:
| My 2001 seqouia's battery recently died. I unlocked the
| car with the key and when I hooked up the jumper cables
| the alarm went off until I turned the ignition to on. I
| was surprised it was that good
| PinguTS wrote:
| Funfact: in the past Ford and Volkswagen had only a number of
| different variations for the coding of the physical keys. So
| that you could open and start several cars with the very same
| physical key.
|
| I assume that this was also true for other brands.
| jabart wrote:
| This happened to me! Friend had a similar car and at night
| they went to mine and the door unlocked but the car wouldn't
| start. The door only had a few pins it checked while the
| ignition used every pin. We compared our keys and sure enough
| one part of it was the same.
| thrtythreeforty wrote:
| OBS Ford F-150s do this and it's not common knowledge even
| among enthusiasts. The back 4 pins work the door, the front
| 6 or so pins work the ignition. A common problem is that
| the ignition barrel keyswitch dies and you have to replace
| it, but then you have separate keys for the door and
| ignition. I took the new ignition key to a locksmith and
| had him copy the 4 back pins from the factory key, and I
| was back to a single key!
| devmor wrote:
| I had a similar experience once when I drove a Prius.
| Walked out of the grocery store, hit the unlock button, got
| into my car, then wondered why the seat was too far forward
| - before realizing it was not my Prius.
| dornan wrote:
| Fun fact: the same applies to common household locks. If you
| take your household key and try all the same-brand locks in
| your neighborhood (~50) you'll likely find a match. Don't
| actually do this, your neighbors will think you're causing
| trouble.
| stevenAthompson wrote:
| Many fleet vehicles are still this way. The 1284x key, for
| example, can open a surprising number of things including
| many older police vehicles.
|
| A few hundred dollars more on Amazon will net you a magic
| keyring that can open a surprising number of vehicles,
| buildings, control systems, and vending machines.
|
| If you're into that sort of thing check out Deviant Ollam's
| physical pentesting videos on Youtube.
| fnord77 wrote:
| > magic keyring
|
| Are you talking about the "1284x FEO-K1 16120 222343 CH751
| CH501 C346A C390A E114 " set?
| stevenAthompson wrote:
| That's a good start. To do better you'll need to do some
| reading or watch a ton of youtube videos to identify the
| keys that will get you the most bang for the buck.
|
| I think mine has something like 20 keys on it now, and it
| will open a truly surprising number of things that it
| shouldn't.
| CableNinja wrote:
| My mom amd my friends mom both drove toyotas, completely
| different models and many years apart. By coincidence the key
| for my friends moms car worked for my moms, for unlock and
| start, but, my moms could only unlock the other one.
| cafard wrote:
| In the 1970s, I unlocked the door on what I took to be the
| family VW Rabbit and got behind the wheel. It turned out that
| the ignition lock was fussier than the door lock, and I
| discovered my mistake without driving away.
| ethagnawl wrote:
| I have a Honda from the late 90s which behaves in a similar
| way and whose ignition is also fussy but only to a point.
| With enough wiggling, a key from a different model from ~10
| years prior will also start it.
| thimkerbell wrote:
| What does Tesla have?
| DaSHacka wrote:
| An RFID key with an optional mobile app, AFAIK.
| graemep wrote:
| > And all cars include a physical key as a backup entry method.
|
| Which means you are safer with just keys rather than keys plus
| another way to open the doors.
|
| > This was partially solved by adding another device that cuts
| off the engine, the immobilizer
|
| If they key does not need to be physically inserted to start
| the engine (which is true in many cars) then that is liable to
| attack using the remotes too, right?
| gwbas1c wrote:
| The two times I had a car break-in, it was purely physical.
| Once it was smashed glass, and the other someone pried open my
| door with a crowbar.
| myself248 wrote:
| For the time being, I just store my keys in a little cast iron
| dutch oven, sitting on top of the fridge.
|
| It's extremely effective as a shield for the 125kHz LF wake-up
| signal, and I've been unable to elicit a response when they're in
| there, even with a relay setup that reliably wakes them up from
| several feet away otherwise.
| stavros wrote:
| Unrelatedly, I didn't realize "Dutch oven" had a non-fart-
| related meaning, thanks for the new word.
| xeromal wrote:
| haha, I think the fart connotation is just that you're
| trapped with the lid (blanket) on.
| stavros wrote:
| It all makes sense now.
| onionisafruit wrote:
| I learn something new here every day.
|
| - I ain't cut out to be Jessie James -You don't go writing
| hot checks down in Mississippi - Dutch oven has a non fart
| meaning
| karmajunkie wrote:
| My father used to be a prosecutor in MS, and one of my
| earliest going-to-work-with-dad memories is watching him
| sign off on warrants for people writing hot checks. I asked
| him once if he thought that was a bit heavy-handed and he
| gave me a very stern lecture about people who write hot
| checks.
|
| So yeah, don't do that in Mississippi.
| abirch wrote:
| I purchased some cheap key fob faraday bags on Amazon.
|
| The bags work while I'm in the car.
| brk wrote:
| Your microwave oven also makes a good Faraday cage.
| asciimov wrote:
| That's an expensive mistake waiting to happen.
| potato3732842 wrote:
| Why would you ever turn on your microwave without opening
| it to put something in it? It's not like an oven that has
| to preheat.
| Figs wrote:
| Mistakes when setting a timer.
|
| My current microwave will complain if the door hasn't
| been opened recently, but my old one would just turn on
| if I fucked up the time entry and tried to set a timer
| while I already had a timer going...
| ElijahLynn wrote:
| Kids
| azeirah wrote:
| adhd
| gambiting wrote:
| I just don't understand why manufacturers don't follow Volvo on
| this - their keyless keys just go to sleep if they aren't moved
| for a few seconds, and they won't respond to any signal while
| sitting on a table for example.
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| Phone based keys leapfrogged this
| hamburglar wrote:
| Except phone based keys are terrible in many other ways
| roelschroeven wrote:
| That solves part of the problem, but doesn't help when you're
| in a supermarket or any other event where you're moving
| around.
|
| My previous cars had keys that I could manually switch off
| and on, which is also not a full solution because it only
| works for people who take the effort to always do that, but
| at least it gives people to opportunity to complete prevent
| relay attacks.
|
| All in all I'm not a big fan of key-less entry. Having to
| press a button on a key to gain entry can maybe be a bit of
| an annoyance, but in my opinion it's not a big deal compared
| to the advantage of completely preventing relay attacks.
| gambiting wrote:
| My previous car(a Mercedes) had a very very simple solution
| to this - you clicked on the lock button twice and it just
| disabled the keyless entry entirely until you pressed any
| other button.
|
| >>the advantage of completely preventing relay attacks.
|
| From my understanding ToF sensors are good enough now to
| completely prevent relay attacks, the added time for the
| relay just adds too much of a delay and it gets rejected. I
| believe the newest range rovers use that, they went from
| being extremely susceptible to relay attacks to relay
| attacks against them being impossible.
| emeril wrote:
| that's a nice solution too but re: mercedes it requires
| the user to actively use that feature which I suspect
| most won't remember to do
| emeril wrote:
| maybe so, but this would seemingly solve most of the
| problem with easy to implement tech
|
| the real test is to find out if this effectively eliminated
| all fob hacks for volvo since they may not be faster than
| the tiger, they just need to be faster than everyone
| else...
| ethagnawl wrote:
| Related: I've found that replacing/programming Volvo keys is
| _extraordinarily expensive_ and I 've yet to find a third-
| party locksmith who will touch them. (The latter applies to
| both fobs and a basic key.)
| gambiting wrote:
| Yep - which is why I always add key insurance to my car
| insurance, it's a very cheap add on annually but saves a
| lot of money if you need a new key.
| ethagnawl wrote:
| Wow. I had no idea this was an option. It kind of breaks
| my brain a bit because, based on the majority of my
| experience with car ownership (91, 98 and 2K models),
| it's an absurd notion.
| Hamuko wrote:
| I've heard BMW does it too. Hoping that it's true and I can
| preserve battery by just keeping my key on the table, since
| it burns through a charge.
| chiph wrote:
| You know those Danish butter cookie tins that everyone's mom
| uses for sewing supplies? They also make good Faraday cages.
| DebtDeflation wrote:
| The current gold standard for vehicle theft protection is:
|
| IGLA system to block the CAN bus, LIN bus, and ODBII port. It
| also protects against key fob cloning/relay attacks.
|
| +
|
| A hidden physical kill switch that cuts off the fuel pump relay
| (the company 41.22 makes a drop in that doesn't require wire
| splicing).
|
| +
|
| A hidden GPS tracker with an onboard backup battery in the event
| the car battery is disconnected.
|
| None of this stops someone with a flatbed from simply towing your
| vehicle away, but at least the GPS tracker will give you a window
| to locate them.
| unnouinceput wrote:
| If I have a towing tool for your car, be sure I have a Faraday
| cage too to block all your GPS trackers while I dismantle the
| car. Think big truck that is isolated from both sound and
| electromagnetism and I simply hack at your car with my
| wrenches, selling your expensive Tesla for parts.
| DebtDeflation wrote:
| That's an issue once the tow truck gets where it's going, but
| the GPS tracker will record/broadcast the path there.
| exhilaration wrote:
| GPS jammers are less than $30 on Alibaba, truck drivers
| have been using them for over 10 years [1] to defeat their
| bosses tracking devices.
|
| Multi-Band Jammers are $1000, burglary rings are using
| those to block all Wi-Fi, cell, GPS signals - check out
| this arrest report from last week in Pennsylvania [2]. If I
| was a high-end car thief, like in Gone in 60 Seconds,
| that's what I would use.
|
| [1] https://www.theregister.com/2013/08/12/feds_arrest_rogu
| e_tru...
|
| [2] https://dauphin.crimewatchpa.com/lowerpaxtonpd/3730/cas
| es/or...
| avidiax wrote:
| That's a professional car thief starter pack right there.
| I wonder what the Windex and shaving cream are for.
| stavros wrote:
| It doesn't take much to jam GPS, I'd imagine a small
| handheld device could easily do it. The GPS signal is
| already below the noise floor.
| ta1243 wrote:
| I have a physical key which I physically put in a hole in the
| steering column. This means I know exactly where it is when I
| come to parking the car, and you need to physically have it in
| contact to drive the car away.
|
| I don't get the appeal of keyless ignition.
| marxisttemp wrote:
| People with bulky keychains often just throw them in their bag
| or purse and it can be annoying to fish them out.
|
| I personally put a very high value on having a minimal keychain
| and wallet since I rarely carry a bag with me. The goal is to
| someday live in a state with Apple Wallet drivers' license
| support, in a house with NFC smart locks, driving a car with
| Apple Car Key, at which point I could finally completely
| jettison my keys and my MagSafe wallet. I don't want to carry
| physical keys when I'm already constantly carrying a device
| with a Secure Enclave and biometrics.
| brk wrote:
| Not sure why you're being downvoted, I'm exactly the same.
| House locks are already electronic/automated, haven't carried
| a physical house key in year. Cars use fobs, for newer
| vehicles there is no option for physical keys anyway. When I
| leave the house I take my phone, plus the solo fob for
| whatever vehicle I am driving. I have no desire to have a
| ring of multiple physical keys and fobs with me.
| cholantesh wrote:
| Because it's a wild rube goldberg solution to a minor
| inconvenience.
| blacksmith_tb wrote:
| A beautiful aspiration, until you lose or break your phone...
| vel0city wrote:
| People lose wallets. People lose car keys.
|
| My PaaK car has a backup passphrase to start it. I can be
| used in a pinch if my phone isn't working. I can't say the
| same if I lose my car key.
|
| If I go on a long trip I'm likely to bring multiple car
| keys and multiple payment methods. This is still true if
| I'm doing PaaK.
| cholantesh wrote:
| And people don't lose phones?
| vel0city wrote:
| > My PaaK car has a backup passphrase to start it
|
| Cars that need a physical cut key to go into a cylinder
| don't usually have backup passphrases.
| ethagnawl wrote:
| No, but you can ziptie spares of said keys to an
| inconspicuous location on the vehicle -- just the valet
| key or the door key, depending on your tolerance for risk
| and whether or not the car came with them. (Credit to
| DeviantOllam for the idea.)
| vel0city wrote:
| Cars should have pin pads to unlock them. They're so
| useful on my Fords.
| blacksmith_tb wrote:
| They do, and obviously it's a huge headache. But now we
| can imagine a bright future where you can lose both, and
| your normal way to try and get help, all at once!
| vel0city wrote:
| > But now we can imagine a bright future where you can
| lose both, and your normal way to try and get help, all
| at once!
|
| Still a possibility with cut keys, paper currency, and
| dumb cell phones. Ever have all of those things in a bag
| and have that bag stolen?
|
| At least with the PaaK car I have, there's a backup
| passphrase as well.
|
| As I mentioned elsewhere, I'll trade the slightly worse
| day maybe once a decade+ (or quite possibly _never!_ )
| for the convenience every single other day. If I'm
| smashing my phone every few days I'll probably rethink
| that strategy. But I'll probably want to change whatever
| is causing me to smash my phone every few days.
| ryandrake wrote:
| Or if you don't tend to bring your phone with you to do a
| bunch of errands. If all my locks were tied to my phone,
| I'd have to fish it out of the drawer whenever I go
| anywhere. OP said he "constantly" carries his phone with
| him, so maybe not a problem for him. Am I the only person
| in the world who leaves the phone at home if I'm not
| planning to use it?
| vel0city wrote:
| > Am I the only person in the world who leaves the phone
| at home if I'm not planning to use it?
|
| But I would use it, even on a trip to get groceries. I'd
| use it as the source of the media I listen to in the car,
| so my audiobook starts playing wirelessly when I get in.
| My phone has the shopping list on it shared between my
| wife and I, so we always have it if either one of us
| decide to make a quick stop.
| zzyzxd wrote:
| I am also one of those guys don't always carry my phone
| around. That's why I load my keys and credit cards on
| Apple Watch, turned off most of the notifications on it,
| and only allow calls and text messages from wife.
| 2rsf wrote:
| This is as easy to break and and susceptible to theft as
| keyless, so what's the benefit?
| kenjackson wrote:
| I'm honestly very surprised that you don't see the appeal. Are
| there other things people view as conveniences that you don't
| see the appeal of? E.g., keyless entry or remote lock?
| cholantesh wrote:
| Do they really, though? I don't know anyone who raves about
| how much more convenient button start is, they either
| dislike/distrust it or don't really care either way.
| vel0city wrote:
| I absolutely rave about it. Every time I get a rental car
| that needs a cut key in an ignition cylinder it's a massive
| pain. I wouldn't buy a car that doesn't have push button
| ignition and would prefer for all cars I buy going forward
| to have phone as a key as an option.
|
| For my personal cars I either use phone as a key or I'll
| keep the key fob in my bag. So I just walk up to the car,
| the car either auto unlocks or I press the button on the
| door, I get in, I press the button, and I go. When I'm done
| I just grab my bag and walk away and the car will auto-lock
| or I just press the door button. So smooth, I never need to
| really handle the key at all. It just stays in its specific
| pocket in my bag or it's just my phone in my pocket.
|
| With a cut key, I walk up to the car. I need to fish around
| in my bag to grab the key. I then need to stick the key in
| the door and turn it, using care to not scratch the paint.
| I get in the car, need to insert the key, turn it and hold
| it long enough for it to start. When I'm done driving, I
| take the key out, grab my bag, and get out of the car. I
| then need to once again insert my key into the door once
| again being careful to not scratch anything, turn it to
| lock. Then I need to put the key away again.
|
| And then phone as a key is incredibly nice, definitely my
| preferred way. I can easily leave the house for most
| errands with nothing but my phone on me. It's my car key,
| my payment method, my transit pass, my paperback novel, my
| portable music player, my camera, my maps, my communicator,
| all in one tiny package. Incredibly freeing compared to
| having to carry a bunch of junk in my pockets just to get
| groceries or whatever.
| graemep wrote:
| I do not get the appeal either. You have to put something
| in your pocket and take it out occasionally.
|
| > And then phone as a key is incredibly nice, definitely
| my preferred way.
|
| Your phone becomes a point of failure for one more thing.
|
| > Incredibly freeing compared to having to carry a bunch
| of junk in my pockets just to get groceries or whatever.
|
| All I put in my pocket to buy groceries are keys and a
| wallet.
| vel0city wrote:
| > Your phone becomes a point of failure for one more
| thing.
|
| So one critical point of failure instead of multiple
| critical points of failure. If you lose your car keys on
| your trip, your trip is still a failure and you're
| stranded. If you lose your wallet on your trip it's still
| a failure, and now you have to go cancel a handful of
| cards and you're out the cash in the wallet and what not
| and need to get a new ID. If you lose your phone it's
| still a bad day, a potentially expensive and useful
| device went missing.
|
| If I lose my phone it's the same bad day as if you lose
| yours, a potentially expensive device went missing. I can
| use my backup passphrase on the car to get home. I still
| have my regular wallet at home to fall back on, and all
| my payment info was encrypted and can be remotely wiped
| with a few clicks. I didn't lose any government
| documents.
|
| And in the end, it's not like I'm breaking my phone every
| day or something. Phones are pretty resilient these days
| especially when thinking about short trips around town.
| I've had one phone break from physical damage in the past
| decade. Seems like an overblown concern to me. As for
| "what if your phone dies?", the car is a 74kWh battery.
| If my phone dies while I'm next to 74kWh of electricity
| I'm an idiot and failed to have extremely basic plans.
|
| > All I put in my pocket to buy groceries are keys and a
| wallet.
|
| So 3x more junk than me for otherwise no reason.
| graemep wrote:
| > . If you lose your car keys on your trip, your trip is
| still a failure
|
| I have my phone so i can phone for help. I have my wallet
| so I can pay for things.
|
| > If I lose my phone it's the same bad day as if you lose
| yours, a potentially expensive device went missing
|
| Nope, because its like everything that could happen to me
| happening at once.
|
| You have a lot less backup.
| vel0city wrote:
| > Nope, because its like everything that could happen to
| me happening at once
|
| No, because I can still drive home even if I lose my
| phone.
|
| If you lose your wallet, you're not buying the groceries.
| If you lose your keys, those groceries aren't getting
| home anytime soon.
|
| And even then, this is still a massively rare occurrence.
| How often do you smash your phone on the ground, daily?
| Weekly? Monthly? I'll gladly trade a slightly less
| convenient day once a decade+ for having to deal with all
| this business of having to carry extra junk _every day of
| my life_.
| cholantesh wrote:
| >With a cut key, I walk up to the car. I need to fish
| around in my bag to grab the key. I then need to stick
| the key in the door and turn it, using care to not
| scratch the paint. I get in the car, need to insert the
| key, turn it and hold it long enough for it to start.
| When I'm done driving, I take the key out, grab my bag,
| and get out of the car. I then need to once again insert
| my key into the door once again being careful to not
| scratch anything, turn it to lock. Then I need to put the
| key away again.
|
| I'll be honest, this reads like a drastic
| overcomplication of a very simple transaction. Why can't
| you just put them in your pocket? Are you walking around
| like a frontier town sheriff with cylinder lock keys on
| an antique keyring?
| vel0city wrote:
| > Why can't you just put them in your pocket?
|
| Modern car keys, even cut ones, are often giant behemoths
| of keys. They need transponders for the immobilizer. They
| choose to integrate the remote into it, and either way
| I'd probably still have the remote on the same keychain.
| They're annoying and uncomfortable to have in my pocket.
| If I have a choice to not have to have an expensive big
| giant chunk of plastic in my pocket every moment I'm out
| of my house or choose to have that giant expensive chunk
| of plastic in my pocket every moment, which do you think
| I'd rather choose?
|
| And then if I have to actually take it out of my pocket
| and stick it into things? Even more annoying when there's
| the option of just not having to do that. Why would I
| _prefer_ to have to take this annoying chunk of plastic
| out of my pocket every time I want to get into and start
| my car?
|
| Imagine if every time you wanted to open your fridge you
| had to fish out a key from your pocket, put it in a
| cylinder, and turn it. Imagine if every time you wanted
| to flush out your toilet you had to do a couple of extra
| steps _just because_. To turn on the sink, you have to do
| this extra little pattern before you just lift the
| handle! Sounds great, why not add a bunch of extra little
| steps to everything in your life when you don 't have to.
|
| Its like I'm talking to the people in the cave. You don't
| even see how nice it is to just _not have to carry_ the
| car key because its been just so ingrained into your
| life, that you accept it as something normal and
| expected. Who wouldn 't want to carry around a $200 chunk
| of plastic half the size of a baseball in their pocket
| everywhere they go that does nothing but unlock and start
| their car?!
|
| Its freeing to not have to carry a ton of junk with you
| everywhere you go.
| cholantesh wrote:
| >You don't even see how nice it is to just not have to
| carry the car key because its been just so ingrained into
| your life, that you accept it as something normal and
| expected.
|
| Possibly, but alternatively, you've rationalized that a
| litany of features that proffer negligible improvements
| to the experience of driving a car and entrench car
| dependency are in fact worth having what you regard as
| cartoonishly oversized keys* that can give malicious
| actors faster access to a $50000 vehicle.
|
| * I've very recently had about 5 different ones in my
| pockets on extended test drives and only the CX-5 I think
| fits this rubric, but meh
| vel0city wrote:
| Yes, because car theft was unheard of before wireless key
| fobs. Seriously? Are you not familiar with the Kia Boys?
| Having wireless transponders has _massively reduced_ the
| rates of theft over the days of cut keys. And if it 's
| all going to be relying on the security of a wireless
| handshake anyways, there's little point in having the
| tumbler that can be trivially raked. Or just overpowered
| and turned anyways.
|
| And hilarious you're tying the idea of people having
| pushbutton ignitions to continuing car dependency. Yes,
| if only we still required cut keys on cars, we would have
| eliminated car dependency in the US! Tons of people were
| thinking "maybe cars aren't all they're cracked up to
| be..." but then they saw "ooh, push button ignition!
| Nevermind, defund public transit!"
|
| I'm very pro public transit. I ride it, I vote for it, I
| write to my congress critters about it, I champion it to
| my friends and strangers all the time. I want to see it
| succeed. But guess what...I have my transit pass _on my
| phone as well!_ Eee gads!
|
| Once again, it all boils down to why would I _choose_ to
| do the more annoying process when I don 't have to? The
| cut key isn't really providing _any_ extra security (once
| again, see Kia Boys). Would you choose to have to insert
| a key and turn it to open your fridge? Why would I want
| to have to do that instead of just pressing a button on
| my car? Personally, even pressing the button is a bit
| overkill, but I guess I 'm a little old fashioned. In the
| end I do still prefer thinking about the car is either
| "on" or "off", as in is the drive train ready to operate
| or not.
| whartung wrote:
| I love the entry on my '14 Jeep.
|
| Walk up, put your hand in the handle, and it unlocks. Get
| in, press the button, and it starts. This is a fabulous
| "happy path" that is seamless.
|
| Nothing happens without an actual action, but the actions
| are natural and organic to the task. The sensor is inside
| the door handle, combined with the key fob, and it just
| opens when you slide your hand into. It's a, truly,
| marvelous experience.
|
| My keys stay in my pocket. Since I open the door for my
| wife anyway, it just works. (She can open the door, I just
| have to be close.)
|
| Similarly, when we open the rear lift gate, it just opens.
| This also unlocks the rest of the vehicle (in contrast to
| if I push the gate open button on the fob, only the rear
| gate is open, not the rest -- which I find odd).
|
| When leaving, I press a lock button on the handle to lock
| the car.
|
| It's a great compromise, and works really well.
| shepherdjerred wrote:
| I like it quite a bit. It wouldn't be a dealbreaker for me,
| but I would prefer having it than not.
| dzhiurgis wrote:
| My phone has a card, opens my car and my garage door. Haven't
| had a trouble for years. Saved me hours from looking for each
| of those items separately.
| hermitcrab wrote:
| I had a car that unlocked as soon as you walked near with the
| fob. I hated this feature, because you were never sure if the
| car (with your expensive laptop in the boot/trunk) was actually
| locked. I ended up giving the key to a family member and
| getting them to walk a distance away, so I could try the door
| handle and check it was actually locked.
| RunningDroid wrote:
| My family have both a Chrysler and a Subaru that try to do
| this, but they can't always keep up. (Sometimes I walk too
| fast and pull on the handle before it unlocks the door.)
| somerandomqaguy wrote:
| Trying to dig your keys out of your pockets when it's extremely
| cold and having mittens on is not fun. Double the fun if it's
| night time, because the sun sets at 4:30 on those kinds of
| days.
|
| Also it not being possible to lock yourself out of your car is
| neat.
|
| It's not a must have but it's really nice.
|
| Source: Canada
| zero_k wrote:
| Broke a few of these for my old work -- HiTag2 and Megamos, some
| of the code&knowledge used for the attack is online&published,
| but neither can be used to actually break the ciphers as-is
| [1][2]. The issue used to be that the cipher employed needed to
| be low-power, fast, and reliable. With current technology, one
| could easily use AES, and no serious auto maker should be using
| HiTag2/Megamos. They were hand-rolled ciphers. The way AES is
| used (i.e. the protocol itself) could still be wrong, of course,
| e.g. allowing for replay attacks, etc.
|
| [1] Doesn't have some features which you need to use to actually
| attack HiTag2: https://github.com/msoos/grainofsalt
|
| [2] Used for various pre-processing that is useful (but not
| neccessary) to break Megamos, but _far_ from the actual attack:
| https://github.com/meelgroup/bosphorus/
| gadders wrote:
| So many Range Rovers are being stolen in the UK that the
| manufacturer has started contributing towards insurance costs:
| https://www.whatcar.com/news/range-rover-insurance-owners-to...
| Tagbert wrote:
| perhaps they should also contribute to a solution to the weak
| encryption?
| mppm wrote:
| I'm confused why this is still an unsolved problem. A simple
| cryptographic challenge with pre-shared keys + button press ought
| to make key fobs perfectly secure for all practical purposes. Is
| there something I'm missing here?
| 2rsf wrote:
| Battery life maybe? AFAIK most of the remotes works one way
| only, they don't have a receiver and very low processing power.
| PinguTS wrote:
| This adds complexity and with complexity there comes a price
| tag. That would make the key fob more expansive. It also adds
| higher power requirements this then comes with new requirements
| for the battery.
| mppm wrote:
| Re price tag: you can buy a smartphone for 100$. Surely it is
| possible to mass produce cheap key fobs with send/receive
| capability and a tiny crypto module.
|
| Re power: Key fobs already do some form of crypto and
| broadcast. Adding reception capabilities ought not to be that
| power hungry.
| Iolaum wrote:
| Even Better, they can use a smartphone app. We already have
| a battery-powered device that can emit radio signals in
| various frequencies!
| ryandrake wrote:
| I've got an even better solution: Picture a piece of
| metal, cut in a specific way as to allow metal "tumblers"
| inside a small cylinder to turn, engaging and disengaging
| the locks and/or ignition, whereas other pieces of metal,
| cut differently, would not allow any motion. I know, it
| sounds far out there, but we should give it a shot.
| vel0city wrote:
| That doesn't sound very secure at all. I've heard there
| are little known techniques called "lockpicking" and
| "rakes" that make such technology practically useless.
| unnouinceput wrote:
| And how that will protect you from repeater attack? I just
| steal your car while you are in mall with this just as easy,
| encryption or not. I don't care about the signal, just that I
| capture it, send it to my other device near your car and
| kaboom!, your car unlocked.
| SirMaster wrote:
| How does repeating work if both the car and key use a code
| that changes every time, like 2FA app.
| AlotOfReading wrote:
| TOTP relies on synchronized clocks, which is far, far too
| complicated to work here.
| mberger wrote:
| You have to be able to get new keys made without having an
| original to read. A database of vin, key would be too big of a
| target and would have to be shared with dealers anyway so they
| could program new ones. I'm not a security expert but it seems
| like it would really shorten battery life on the fob if you
| wanted to protect against replay attacks by adding a time
| sensitive value.
| mppm wrote:
| Key distribution is (as always) an important, but solvable
| problem. There are some tradeoffs involving centralization vs
| cost of replacement, but those apply generally, not just in
| this particular case.
|
| As for replay attacks, that's where the button press comes in
| (like on a hardware security token) -- the key only responds
| to challenges within a second or so of a button press and the
| car sets a similar timeout for validity.
| GuB-42 wrote:
| It requires two-way communication, which makes the system more
| complex, with all the negatives that come with it.
|
| Cars are not very secure by nature: they have easy to break
| glass windows, and are made of relatively lightweight
| materials. The key system just needs to match that level of
| security, and AFAIK, attacks on the keyfob are uncommon
| compared to other, less subtle techniques.
|
| The more complex and sensitive "PKES" system, according to the
| article already has a challenge-response system, but it doesn't
| help with relay attacks.
| blibble wrote:
| yeah, this is what the article is describing as to what it was
| like in the early 2000s (assuming no moronic key reuse)
|
| the problem is they "improved" the usability
|
| it was safe when you had to push a button, but now roles are
| flipped so the car is the initiator, and doing it constantly
|
| the protocol is now subject to a whole entire extra class of
| attacks it was never designed to deal with
| stewx wrote:
| We should just GPS track the cars and arrest the thieves.
| rikkert wrote:
| Good luck when the car is stripped for parts within 24h
| Noumenon72 wrote:
| We could have the police work 24 hours also.
| Hamuko wrote:
| There's an UK-based company providing anti-theft tracking
| services for cars, motorcycles, heavy equipment etc. and they
| have a YouTube channel where they document some recovery
| operations. It's quite remarkable how fast a car goes from
| stolen to stripped. They also can't rely on just GPS to
| actually recover stolen goods. For example:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IdGoxDPMv9Y
| madphilosopher wrote:
| Vulnerabilities like this lead to car thefts. Some models of cars
| are more susceptible than others, and the manufacturers seem
| unwilling to fix the problem. The insurance companies know which
| models are more trouble for them, and so they set higher rates
| for these, which punishes the driver/owner for something outside
| of their control.
|
| My solution? Require the manufacturers of vulnerable models to
| pay the insurance on behalf of the driver/owner as long as the
| vulnerabilities go unfixed.
| emeril wrote:
| part of what helps is, at least, before buying a car, to get
| insurance quotes and then you see the true cost of THAT car
| pinko wrote:
| Consumer Reports will also inform you of things like this in
| advance, if you look. (For this and 100 other reasons, It's
| worth paying for a digital sub.)
| potato3732842 wrote:
| Consumer Reports reporting is bought and paid for by the
| OEMs. They'll make a big issue out of nothing or minimize
| real issues depending on where the money is coming from.
| This goes back at least as far as the Samurai rollover
| scandal.
|
| Pretty much all industry journalism where the journalists
| depend on being in the good graces of the manufacturers to
| get the access they need to make their content is like
| this.
| dripton wrote:
| Consumer Reports buys all the items they review,
| anonymously.
| potato3732842 wrote:
| That doesn't stop them from doing questionable stuff and
| playing favorites. All this was aired publicly in the
| lawsuit Suzuki filed.
| dripton wrote:
| Yes, many people make many claims. You should think about
| which ones to believe.
| weaksauce wrote:
| i don't know how you can say they play favorites.
| internal memos show that suzuki knew that they had a
| rollover issue because of the narrow wheelbase and CR
| called them out on it through testing.
| pinko wrote:
| This is quite literally the opposite of true. Consumer
| Reports remains the shining exception to this practice,
| unlike Wirecutter, etc.
| Mister_Snuggles wrote:
| Do people not look at the operating costs before buying a
| vehicle? Do they really just negotiate a monthly payment and
| get surprised at the amount they have to pay for
| fuel/maintenance/insurance?
|
| When I bought my most recent car I had a spreadsheet which
| projected fuel (whether that's gas, electricity, or
| gas+electricity) and maintenance costs (there was some ball-
| parking here) for a dozen different models based on our driving
| habits. Once the list was narrowed down a bit I did some online
| quotes at my insurance company to add that in.
|
| There were no financial surprises when I bought the car.
| lsy wrote:
| This is unnecessarily self-congratulating. The problem is
| that vulnerabilities are found in cars _after_ they are on
| the market for a while and already purchased, so existing
| owners get their rates hiked, but the manufacturer never
| fixes the issue. No amount of research is going to guarantee
| your operating cost _next_ year.
| vel0city wrote:
| > When I bought my most recent car I had a spreadsheet
|
| Yeah so already different from like 90% of car buyers out
| there.
| ActorNightly wrote:
| My friends Truck was stolen by some people with a tow truck.
| Key access doesn't really matter in the long run.
|
| If you want to prevent theft, you have to make stealing
| "expensive" enough for people not to bother with it.
| throw0101d wrote:
| For a good modern day automobile security system, at least in the
| US, get a car with a manual transmission.
| recursive wrote:
| How do people learn to drive manuals in 2025? It used to be
| that you used your buddy's/parent's beater in the back of the
| mall parking lot.
|
| But no one has one anymore. I tried to learn in the 90s for
| about an hour, and never managed to get the car moving forward
| rather than bouncing. At this point, I don't have much desire
| to try again, but I wouldn't know how to try if I wanted to.
| ge96 wrote:
| Cheap standard cars like a miata are fun to drive
|
| edit: if you buy em old I mean
|
| me I want an Exige
| cafard wrote:
| Twenty years ago, I supervised a beginner in an office
| parking lot that was generally empty on Saturdays. But you're
| right, we haven't had a car with a manual transmission in a
| dozen years now.
| ge96 wrote:
| So funny the guy towing my car couldn't drive it so I had to
| drive it onto the ramp
| SoleilAbsolu wrote:
| A patina of filth, slightly faded paint and maybe a few dings
| and dents also help make a car invisible.
| Ballas wrote:
| Code-hopping remotes have existed for a very long time, and I am
| really surprised that it's not the case here. I have had cars
| that were made in the 90's that used keeloq, a technology from
| the mid 80's.
|
| In fact, all of my door openers and car remotes have some form of
| code-hopping and it's certainly not because they were
| specifically chosen for that aspect.
|
| Sure, there are attacks for code-hopping systems as well, but
| it's a completely different league.
| bufferoverflow wrote:
| Why can't it be very simple and secure. Car and fob share a
| secret key.
|
| When you click on the open button on the fob, you send
|
| SHA256(key)
|
| Car responds with a random challenge
|
| RND
|
| Fob sends
|
| SHA256(key XOR RND)
|
| Car does the same calculation and compares.
| kilburn wrote:
| There's no car identification in this protocol, meaning that
| impersonation/mitm attacks are trivial. Try again :)
| crustycoder wrote:
| This is an old article and whilst there are undoubtedly still
| vulnerable vehicles, with the advent of UWB it seems to be a
| solved problem.
|
| My car has UWB, there's a LED on the fob that blinks when it is
| in range and if it's stationary for a short time, it inactivates
| as well. Some experimentation suggests you need to be within
| about 5m of the car to open the doors.
|
| The localisation seems to be very accurate, even if you can open
| the car from a distance it won't start unless the fob is
| physically within it. If I sit in the driver seat the fob has to
| be less than 10mm away from the outside of driver's window,
| otherwise it refuses to start.
| mrinterweb wrote:
| I have a 2021 Toyota that I lost one of two key fobs. Toyota has
| a strict policy that only Toyota dealerships can program key fobs
| for their newer cars, so buying a key fob replacement from a 3rd
| party was not an option. Total out of pocket expense for getting
| new key fob, programming that key fob to the car, and making sure
| the other fob still worked; cost about $550. I feel that is an
| absurd amount of money to spend because of a lost fob. I
| appreciate people looking into and exposing weaknesses of car
| fobs because it might expose ways to circumvent the monopolistic
| costs associated with replacements. Wish there was a way to
| retrofit my car to use Ultra Wide Bandwidth as a key.
| throw678937 wrote:
| Used to be, you could get a seedy OBD cable off Amazon and it
| came with instructions on how to "acquire" the dealer software,
| which let you reprogram the car to accept any fob. Not sure if
| things have changed in the last 5 years.
| 1970-01-01 wrote:
| I HATE to say it, but 'enter your password to unlock your car' is
| the only reasonable alternative when 'something you have' is
| pseudo-secure.
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