[HN Gopher] Healthy soil is the hidden ingredient
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Healthy soil is the hidden ingredient
        
       Author : gnabgib
       Score  : 156 points
       Date   : 2025-04-16 21:13 UTC (4 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (www.nature.com)
 (TXT) w3m dump (www.nature.com)
        
       | bethekidyouwant wrote:
       | they paywall right before they say anything of note I imagine
       | this is climbing to the top because people like the idea of
       | healthy soil. My very small organic no till garden is lots of
       | manual labour. when one person grows food for 1 million I laugh
       | to see a picture of someone standing in a field with a shovel
       | 'fixing soil'
        
         | zeristor wrote:
         | https://archive.ph/S9obh
        
           | SwayamDas wrote:
           | haha awesome!
        
         | righthand wrote:
         | People don't stand in a field fixing soil one shovel at a time.
         | They're fixing soil with larger machinery and taking samples to
         | research the soils fixes.
        
           | bethekidyouwant wrote:
           | Sure, but in this article, they talk about traditional
           | methods of soil management. There's nothing about stopping
           | erosion or implementing no till on an industrial scale.
        
         | bgnn wrote:
         | Well, I don't know about a million, but there are small scale
         | profitable commercial farms doing this. One local farm I get my
         | seasonal veggies from had 200 tonne carrot and parsnip over-
         | production this year due to favorable conditions and they are
         | tiny: https://www.noshitfood.nl/ [unfortunately only in Dutch]
        
       | zeristor wrote:
       | There's not that much in the article, it's more of a setting the
       | case.
       | 
       | Mention is made of "using AI" and other data sources, and that's
       | what I'd like to read far more about.
       | 
       | I wonder if the new future is writing MCPs so agents can access
       | the data.
        
         | Cthulhu_ wrote:
         | "using AI" is just a marketing buzzword, a few years ago it
         | would've said "IoT and Big Data", before that it probably
         | would've said "DHTML".
        
       | SwayamDas wrote:
       | Here are the primary components that you would require - 1.
       | Organic Matter: Compost and mulch enrich soil and improve
       | structure. 2. Microorganisms: Bacteria, fungi, and mycorrhizae
       | break down organic matter and enhance nutrient uptake. 3. Soil
       | Fauna: Earthworms, insects, and arachnids aerate soil and mix
       | organic matter. 4. Nutrients: Macronutrients (N, P, K) and
       | micronutrients (Fe, Mn, Zn, etc.) are essential for plant growth.
       | 5. Soil Structure: Aggregates and porosity improve aeration and
       | water retention. 6. Water Management: Proper irrigation and
       | drainage ensure optimal soil moisture.
        
         | noefingway wrote:
         | Item 3 is important in more ways than most people realize. Last
         | year many farmers in my area that planted soybeans early had a
         | problem with slugs eating the sprouting beans and were forced
         | to replant multiple times. This spring I went to a growers
         | conference and heard a presentation by a Prof. Tooker from Penn
         | State Ag about the slug problem, which he has been researching
         | for several years. Turns out that the slug infestation can be
         | directly traced to the use of insecticides used in seed
         | treatments. The insecticides kill beetles (and other beneficial
         | insects) that eat the slugs but don't kill slugs because they
         | aren't insects (they are mollusks). No beetles more slugs. Take
         | away is don't use treated seed. However, standard practice at
         | seed companies is to treat seed with fungicides and
         | insecticides, thus creating a problem rather than solving it.
        
           | behringer wrote:
           | We just need to add a mollusk treatment!
        
             | zeristor wrote:
             | The beetles are the mollusc treatment.
        
               | genter wrote:
               | OP is making a joke: the solution to too many pesticides
               | is even more pesticides.
        
             | fsckboy wrote:
             | copper kills invertebrates (it's in a range of fishtank
             | infection treatments, doesn't kill fish but will kill
             | snails and crabs)
        
               | bbojan wrote:
               | Copper kills funghi too, and that's a problem as funghi
               | are important element of healthy soil.
        
           | cameron_b wrote:
           | The attempt is surely to solve for an abundance of beetles,
           | but it is often helpful to think of many of these 'problems'
           | as imbalances.
           | 
           | Nature does not work in two-variable equations, and the
           | abundance or absence of an element typically has
           | repercussions that are difficult to study.
           | 
           | An often-cited example of missing the bigger picture in
           | controlling one variable would be the Chinese campaign
           | against the Four Pests -
           | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Pests_campaign
        
           | vaylian wrote:
           | When I think about insects and slugs, then slugs are
           | typically considerably larger and have more body mass. Is it
           | only the smaller slugs or slug eggs that the insects eat? I
           | have a hard time imagining a beetle eating a slug.
        
         | tastyfreeze wrote:
         | 2 provides 4 from the insitu minerals. It may be necessary to
         | add minerals if you are growing plants that require something
         | the native minerals dont have. But, the majority of minerals
         | plants need are available everywhere. The soil biology is
         | required to unlock it for plants to use.
         | 
         | If you see the macrobiota in soil it is an indicator microbiota
         | is present. The more the merrier.
        
         | cscheid wrote:
         | Please - if I wanted to know what an LLM thinks about this, I
         | would have asked it myself.
        
           | malfist wrote:
           | I was just coming to comment the same thing. This seems like
           | an ai bot answer. And it's a green username
        
           | panny wrote:
           | Amusingly, it is catastrophically wrong, like AI slop
           | typically is.
        
           | Cthulhu_ wrote:
           | It really is a "nobody asked" kind of comment.
        
       | tbrownaw wrote:
       | > _project to assess soil erosion and degradation in vineyards
       | using geographical mapping systems and artificial intelligence
       | (AI). ... AI helps me to design and polish the software codes
       | that I use_
       | 
       | Is this describing use of something like GitHub copilot?
        
         | johnisgood wrote:
         | Or any LLMs.
        
         | marginalia_nu wrote:
         | Sometimes I get the feeling you gotta tie your research to AI
         | in some tenuous fashion to get research funding.
        
           | elcritch wrote:
           | It's not a feeling. Getting grants requires following
           | whatever hype trend is popular at the moment.
           | 
           | Savvy academics know this and respond accordingly. Whether
           | it's AI (now) or DEI stuff (until recently), they add the
           | required little sections and play the game.
        
             | jimbokun wrote:
             | I bet AI is really good at writing grant proposals with all
             | the right buzz words.
        
               | datadrivenangel wrote:
               | It's so good that some grant applications are switching
               | to short video submissions.
        
       | ralusek wrote:
       | I'm a gardening and landscaping enjoyer, but I am constantly
       | confused about the bordering magical thinking surrounding dirt,
       | among other aspects of growing things.
       | 
       | If you look at hydroponics/aeroponics, plants basically need
       | water, light, and fertilizer (N (nitrogen) P (phosphorous) K
       | (potassium), and a few trace minerals). It can be the most
       | synthetic process you've ever seen, and the plants will grow
       | amazingly well.
       | 
       | The other elements regarding soil health, etc, would be much
       | better framed in another way, rather than as directly necessary
       | for plant health. The benefits of maintaining a nice living soil
       | is that it makes the environment self-sustaining. You could just
       | dump synthetic fertilizer on the plant, with some soil additives
       | to help retain the right amount of drainage/retention, and it
       | would do completely fine. But without constant optimal inputs,
       | the plants would die.
       | 
       | If you cultivate a nice soil, such that the plants
       | own/surrounding detritus can be broken down effectively, such
       | that the nutrients in the natural processes can be broken down
       | and made available to the plant, and the otherwise nonoptimal
       | soil texture characteristics could be brought to some positive
       | characteristics by those same processes, then you can
       | theoretically arrive at a point that requires very few additional
       | inputs.
        
         | greenie_beans wrote:
         | sure, we can make them grow well in a lab. but a natural system
         | is so much simpler and elegant
        
           | westurner wrote:
           | Plants absorb nitrogen and CO2 from the air and store it in
           | their roots; plants fertilize soil.
           | 
           | If you only grow plants with externally-sourced nutrients,
           | that is neither sustainable nor permaculture.
           | 
           | Though it may be more efficient to grow without soil; soil
           | depletion isn't prevented by production processes that do not
           | generate topsoil.
           | 
           | JADAM is a system developed by a chemicals engineer given
           | what is observed to work in JNF/KNF.
           | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38527264
           | 
           | Where do soil amendments come from, and what would deplete
           | those stocks (with consideration for soil depletion)?
           | 
           | (Also, there are extremely efficient ammonia/nitrogen
           | fertilizer generators, but still then the algae due to runoff
           | problem. FWIU we should we asks ng farmers to Please produce
           | granulated fertilizer instead of liquid.)
           | 
           | The new biofuel subsidies require no-till farming practices;
           | which other countries are further along at implementing (in
           | or to prevent or reverse soil depletion).
           | 
           | Tilling turns topsoil to dirt due to loss of moisture,
           | oxidation, and solar radiation.
        
             | bgnn wrote:
             | tilling with anything more than human power should be
             | banned!
        
             | CrazyStat wrote:
             | The vast majority of plants do not absorb nitrogen from the
             | air. Legumes are the well-known exception.
        
               | Kbelicius wrote:
               | It isn't legumes that absorb nitrogen from air. It is
               | bacteria that lives on their roots.
        
               | jletroui wrote:
               | That, and most of the other nutrients which was needed to
               | grow the vegies ( like phosphates and potassium) are
               | flushed into the toilet. There will be no long term
               | permaculture without cycling those back at some point.
               | Otherwise, organic or not, this will remains an wasteful
               | open loop.
        
               | westurner wrote:
               | I think that's why it's good to rotate beans or plant
               | clover cover crop.
               | 
               | Three Sisters: Corn, Beans, Squash:
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Sisters_(agriculture)
               | 
               | Companion planting:
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Companion_planting
               | 
               | Nitrogen fixation:
               | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_fixation
        
             | throeijfjfj wrote:
             | Most plants do not absorb atmospheric nitrogen, but need
             | external nitride fertilizer to grow! That causes serious
             | ground water polution!
             | 
             | > The new biofuel subsidies require no-till farming
             | practices
             | 
             | This actually depletes soil of nitrogen!
        
           | greenie_beans wrote:
           | and easier and time tested and resilient
        
             | lazide wrote:
             | Uh, pretty much every farmer I ever met is going to
             | disagree.
             | 
             | Farming is _hard_ , unpredictable (prone to
             | disasters/famine/plagues), and prone to all sorts of
             | problems with soil, weather, etc.
             | 
             | The reason modern fertilizer and pesticides are used so
             | widely is they make that fundamentally extremely difficult
             | process easier and more predictable.
        
               | johnisgood wrote:
               | I am pretty sure he was referring to lab-grown, but as to
               | its accuracy; I cannot comment.
        
               | greenie_beans wrote:
               | lol yes, farming is hard as fuck. i'm comparing to
               | growing food in high tech ways outside of soil
        
         | memhole wrote:
         | Maybe it's because I started with hydroponics. I don't get the
         | fascination with soil or animosity about hydroponics being
         | unnatural. People do vastly underestimate what it takes to
         | create a good soil mixture, though. In the end, you're
         | suspending nutrients in a substrate for the plants to uptake
         | regardless of how you go about providing them.
        
         | cellular wrote:
         | I am terraforming my limestone rocky terrain using leaves.
         | 
         | I believe they have trace minerals and the grub larve eat the
         | oak leaves and poop amazing soil.
         | 
         | I now have 6" of black soil with earthworms!
         | 
         | This is in dry central Texas. Moisture helps microbial/fungal
         | life. Leaves retain moisture.
         | 
         | Another key ingredient is pressure/compaction of leaves.
         | 
         | I have results on my YouTube channel: theRainHarvester
        
           | doodlebugging wrote:
           | I checked out your video collection. You have some very
           | interesting stuff and I think I may be able learn a few
           | things.
           | 
           | I also live in Texas, north Texas, on a dry limestone outcrop
           | with soil depths averaging about 6" but highly variable due
           | to the sloping nature of the property. My best, most fertile
           | soils are underneath the hackberry/cedar elm/live oak stands
           | on the property where leaves are allowed to accumulate and
           | decompose. In the cleared area, it was farmed for hay, beans,
           | corn, etc before we bought the place, the soil is pretty
           | light, tends to dry out quickly and can be difficult to dig
           | if it hasn't rained in a while. Under the trees it is dark
           | and richly connected and you can dig with your fingers to the
           | rock ledge underneath. It's some good shit.
           | 
           | We grow all our garden stuff in troughs and rings since
           | growing in the soil requires too much water due to the oven
           | effect in the summer where the near surface rock heats up and
           | radiates all night drying the soil making it necessary to
           | water daily. I'm on a private water well and not terribly
           | enthusiastic about watering anything every day since it seems
           | like a waste to plant things that won't grow without a lot of
           | babysitting.
           | 
           | I also collect rainwater from my greenhouse roof and use a
           | solar/battery setup to drive a water pump inside one of the
           | tanks which is just a standard plastic rotomolded tank. The
           | other tank I have is a stainless steel tank that I got for a
           | song since it leaked like a sieve due to design issues. I can
           | testify that flex-seal tape doesn't work. I sealed all the
           | joints since all were leaking and every one of them developed
           | leaks past the tape. The only notable difference that the
           | flex-seal tape made was in slowing the leak enough that fine
           | particulates began to accumulate in the leaky spots and that
           | has allowed some of the largest leaks to become trickles so
           | that the tank will now hold water. I believe that it will
           | eventually seal itself as all the crud tries to escape the
           | tank and ends up forming a nice organic seal. Big win for me.
           | I just need to put a pump on it now and extend the line to my
           | orchard at my hugelkulture berm.
           | 
           | You have a bit of cedar there. We use cedar mulch to control
           | weed growth. It is an effective weed inhibitor where we have
           | laid it down. I have tested cypress, cedar, and hardwood
           | mixes and cedar definitely controls everything better. We
           | have our annual weeding process set so that we take a few
           | hours in the fall and spring to pull about 95% of things we
           | don't want and then over the growing season we just spend a
           | little time yanking new growth if it happens.
           | 
           | You can and also should incorporate composted grass clippings
           | (weed-free or cut from an area with native grasses and
           | flowers). This will help build rich soil too. Avoid anything
           | from a place that has an invasive plant problem. I am
           | eradicating several non-natives from my place as I slowly
           | drag it back to a native plant property. I have an area of
           | the garden that is set aside as a pollinator attractor and it
           | is full of natives that keep it alive with bees and insects
           | from spring until the first good freeze. It's really
           | rewarding to step out and hear the activity as you stand
           | under the blackberry arches that are loaded with berries and
           | blossoms waiting for the bugs.
           | 
           | I'm gonna check out some of your work, especially the Arduino
           | controlled pump setup inside your greenhouse, since I would
           | love to monitor my own usage from the tank.
        
           | wswope wrote:
           | If you're not on the bandwagon yet, you should try
           | incorporating some mushroom blocks to speed up the
           | decomposition! It'll also help to take the moisture retention
           | you're getting up an additional notch.
           | 
           | We've got a local grow block recycling program through the
           | Central Texas Mycological Society. For your use case, all
           | you'd need to do is bury the blocks in leaf litter with one
           | long edge barely poking up above the surface. A combo of blue
           | and pink oyster would probably serve you well, depending on
           | the season.
        
         | bgnn wrote:
         | I think what is forgotten is the organisms other than plants.
         | Hydroponics is amazing for plants but not sure if you can
         | sustain a wineyard in that fashion for long without having some
         | kind of organism starting to cause issues. A well balanced soil
         | doesn't only support the plants but also provides a healthy
         | microbiome. Now, with the use of pesticides, artificial
         | fertilizers, and tilling it's not less synthetic process than
         | hydrophonics. Soil degradation in presence of these are so well
         | documented and well understood that it's crazy we keep doing
         | it.
        
           | hinkley wrote:
           | I only succeeded with growing African violets when I also had
           | fish. When the violets started looking droopy or hadn't
           | flowered in a while I put a cup of fish tank water in the pot
           | and foomp! Full head of flowers within about three weeks.
           | 
           | The tilapia/aquaponics people have a better system.
        
           | foobarian wrote:
           | There are also organisms such as slugs, grubs, beetles, moths
           | etc. which can mess with growth. I can basically not grow any
           | sunflower at all without it getting destroyed by beetles,
           | zucchinis by vine borer larvae, other things by slugs, etc.
           | Makes it hard to garden without getting resentful and
           | harboring feelings of revenge. Next thing you know you're
           | dropping all sorts of evil chemicals on the plants. :-D
        
         | hackernewds wrote:
         | hydroponics raised vegetables taste like bland slop. if you're
         | an actual food enjoyer anyone can easily notice this
        
         | mattgrice wrote:
         | Hydroponics is great at growing plants that are great at
         | growing in hydroponics. Generally that is short-lived annuals.
        
         | thatcat wrote:
         | There are also enzymes and secondary metabolites relevant to
         | plant health associated with microbiome and ecological chains
         | in healthy soil that go beyond the regenerative macronutrient
         | cycles. If you try to grow edible fruits you'll notice flavor
         | loss as a result of hydroponic / synthetic methods.
        
           | hinkley wrote:
           | Next door neighbor to this: I read someone who had a theory
           | that dwarfed plants were also part of the nutrient and flavor
           | reductions in modern grocery fare.
           | 
           | The model they presented was that the plant stores nutrients
           | all year, and then when it fruits it dumps those nutrients
           | into the fruit. With dwarfism we've reduced the plant size
           | and kept the fruit size with the theory that more
           | photosynthesis goes into the fruit. But there's also a
           | smaller reservoir for everything else that goes into the
           | fruit.
        
         | lurk2 wrote:
         | I think there's a perception that hydroponic systems are less
         | resilient as well as an erroneous belief that they are more
         | complex than soil (their supply chains might be, but the
         | systems themselves are not).
        
         | jajko wrote:
         | Hydroponics eastable plant parts taste like crap, a very pale
         | shadow of earth-grown ones.
         | 
         | Maybe there is some semi-magical way how to grow veggies in
         | hydroponics well, but nobody doing mass produce figured that
         | out so results are subpar on many aspects.
        
           | huntertwo wrote:
           | You need to spend more money on adding "optional" nutrients
           | that would otherwise be produced by organic processes in a
           | living soil. These nutrients are what add to flavor but don't
           | necessarily help with the growing process.
           | 
           | The distinction isn't hydroponics vs soil - it's organic vs
           | inorganic farming. Non organic soil faces the same issues.
           | Aquaponics (I.e organic hydroponics using fish and other
           | aquatic organisms) also yield flavorful crops.
        
         | hinkley wrote:
         | The reason chemical fertilizers work is because they provide
         | minerals that a plant might normally trade sugars to fungi to
         | get. So those sugars stay in the plant making larger fruits,
         | nuts, or legumes.
         | 
         | But the problem is you also get water and early/late season
         | sugars exchanged between plants (Simard et al).
         | 
         | So within a generation the soil structure has collapsed, you're
         | at the whim of every microdrought, and you're dealing with the
         | Red Queen problem. But like drugs, at first it feels amazing.
         | 
         | > dirt
         | 
         | Dirt isn't much better than hydroponics. Soil is. Conventional
         | farming has been described by some as "hydroponics in dirt".
         | That's why it's so fertilizer dependent, just like hydro.
         | 
         | There are a few places in the world where there is insufficient
         | phosphorous in the native rock to grow plants without
         | fertilizer. But everywhere else, healthy soil fungi could mine
         | it out of the sand in the soils. If they were left to grow
         | instead of burned to death with herbicides and fertilizers.
        
           | goeiedaggoeie wrote:
           | great post. I posted in this thread above about using a Lomi
           | to convert our organic waste into organic fertilizer (along
           | with a worm farm), a and cultivating nitrogin fixing bacteria
           | with our outdoor fish pond and a flood and drain system. Soil
           | is great to grow in, if you treat it well.
        
             | hinkley wrote:
             | I will say that my only problem with Simard is that she
             | anthropomorphizes the fungi and the behaviors she
             | documented could just as easily be explained by osmotic
             | pressure. Chemicals in a solution of water have "fairness"
             | built into them. The broker doesn't need to have a strategy
             | for exchange, just siphon off a finder's fee for making the
             | introductions. The magic is low friction channels that can
             | move solutions over a long (for a single celled organism)
             | distance. That's magic enough for any kingdom of life.
             | 
             | Sugary sap? Water will enter and sugars flow out. High
             | nitrogen content? Same same.
        
       | bgnn wrote:
       | I started my gardening adventure with vegetables in pots. It was
       | perfect, plants gave amazing yield, but required too detailed
       | care and attention every day (or sometimes 2-3 times a day in a
       | hot dry summer day). When I have moved to planting in soil I was
       | shocked how worse the plants are doing. Same tomatoes giving
       | 10-15 kg per plant yield in pots were under 3kg in soil. They got
       | more disease issues, more pests (slugs and snails!).
       | 
       | After talking to fellow natural hobby farmers I realized the soil
       | quality was garbage (lack of earth worms and insects), and there
       | were severe drainage and water holding issues: weirdly the soil
       | didn't hold water but it drained way too slow too. So, ehen it
       | rained it was swamped for days but when it got dry none of that
       | water stayed at the top 1 meters of the soil. I'm lucky to find
       | amazing help from local natural farmers, so I got natural green
       | compost (no animal products/byproducts). I have been introduced
       | to no-dig farming too. So first year I started by applying 20cm
       | thick compost on top soil, after putting a layer of old paper
       | boxes against weeds. Then planted my seedlings on these, with
       | worm poop and for some phosphate loving plants bat guano as
       | fertilizers around the plants, topping of with hemp mulch and
       | cacao shell mulch as topping. When this soil has sunken enough,
       | topped off with 2-3 cm compost and mulched again. I have
       | sprinkled insect friendly flowers to attract insects too. This
       | was an amazing succes with not only plants flourishing, fighting
       | diseases much better and resulting in an amazing yield. I didn't
       | need to water as often as before (4x less frequent than before in
       | the soil, 8x less frequent than in the pot). After year 3 I
       | stopped all fertilization and introduced cover crops that could
       | be used as mulch and fertilizer at the same time.
       | 
       | This process though is not linear. I still have plants which are
       | not successful at all. I can grow juicy tasty watermelons in a
       | northern European country but no parsnips or carrots or
       | cauliflowers yet. This is what I love though, I'm interacting
       | with a living microbiome rather than executing lab experiments.
       | Failures are keeping it interesting and improving learning.
        
         | MortyWaves wrote:
         | That was a great read. This is what I hope to achieve too. I
         | know what you mean about some crops that won't grow at all, for
         | me, it's carrots. They are never more than a couple of
         | centimetres long. Deeply frustrating. I've tried lots,
         | including making the soil loose, making it compact, adding
         | sand, etc.
         | 
         | Also Aloe Vera, absolutely the most frustrating house plants
         | I've ever had.
        
           | thatcat wrote:
           | You're probably over watering the aloe. Try growing carrots
           | using a straw bale with soil added to a v cut in the center
           | as a planter.
        
             | hinkley wrote:
             | Aloe does better in terra cotta pots and cactus mix. Even
             | if you overwater it it won't stay wet long.
        
           | johnisgood wrote:
           | Why do you find Aloe Vera frustrating? I mean, it grows
           | quickly and requires very little maintenance. I suppose that
           | could be seen as "frustrating" in the sense that it needs to
           | be divided or thinned out regularly.
        
             | hinkley wrote:
             | Typical problem with aloe is overwatering. And modern
             | potting soil often is loaded with sphagnum, which stays wet
             | too long, and then when it dries it becomes hydrophobic so
             | watering the plant doesn't wet the entire soil.
        
               | johnisgood wrote:
               | I agree. I do not water them and they grow crazy!
        
               | hinkley wrote:
               | Only water when the feeling of guilt at not watering them
               | is overwhelming.
        
               | johnisgood wrote:
               | Pretty much. :)
        
           | bgnn wrote:
           | Glad you found it interesting!
           | 
           | It goes so quick with enough care, it's so fascinating. It's
           | impossible to find any place without a lot of worms now.
           | 
           | I have the same issue with carrots. Parsnips are so much more
           | harder though, they just don't grow any root at all!
        
         | GenerWork wrote:
         | When you say that you put a layer of old paper boxes against
         | weeds, does that mean you put the broken down boxes first, and
         | the put the compost on the top? If so, were the seedlings able
         | to sink their roots through the paper boxes and go deeper into
         | the ground?
         | 
         | Also, what cover crops did you introduce?
        
           | bgnn wrote:
           | I just put them dry, not broken, and overlapping between the
           | boxes such that they cover the surface fully. And yes, the
           | roots can go down, but weeds cannot go past that easily. The
           | theory is yhe upwards growth is weak but downwards growth of
           | the roots are much stronger and they can puncture a wet paper
           | box.
           | 
           | Cover crops: clover, buckwheat and winter rye. Cut before
           | seeding and lay them flat over the surface.
        
             | vanattab wrote:
             | I could see this being the reason your carrots didn't grow
             | well though. If the carrots tap root struggles a bit
             | through the cardboard it could mess up devlopment. I think
             | this is why they say not to transplant carrots. The tap
             | root bottoms out quickly and struggles to recover.
        
               | bgnn wrote:
               | Oh carrots were in a deep compost bed (40cm) first. They
               | only grew like 2cm long roots, nowhere near the box.
        
             | smogcutter wrote:
             | Just to clear up what sounds like a simple
             | misunderstanding, because you mentioned being in Europe: in
             | the US (can't speak for other English speaking countries)
             | to "break down" box is to flatten it, not break it like to
             | destroy or tear apart. As in "help me break down these
             | boxes for recycling".
             | 
             | Forgive me if you got that, it just sounded like you were
             | talking past each other.
        
           | hinkley wrote:
           | Cardboard doesn't last long when it's wet, but long enough to
           | smoother the plants beneath it. There's something about it
           | that attracts the fungi that break down wood fiber. And the
           | continuous surface allows it to spread quickly.
        
         | naet wrote:
         | I had the opposite experience. I had rented a house that had an
         | empty patch of dirt and asked the landlord if we could plant
         | some vegetables there (which I didn't have a lot of experience
         | in). My older neighbor saw me and said that we had great soil
         | in our neighborhood but I didn't really think about it. The
         | vegetables grew amazingly well, we had way too many tomatoes
         | and tons of broccoli that kept growing back and more. I barely
         | took any care with it after planting, other than very sporadic
         | watering and harvesting.
         | 
         | The next year we moved from that house to a new place, where we
         | couldn't plant directly in the ground but the landlord was
         | happy for us to use pots and planters. I eagerly planted my
         | broccoli again thinking we'd have the same endless supply...
         | but this time it barely produced anything and looked nothing
         | like the last year. I bought some kind of soil bags from the
         | gardening store after asking an employee which would be good
         | for vegetable pots and planters. Something about the pots or
         | the soil or otherwise made a gigantic difference even though we
         | had moved probably less than a mile distance wise.
         | 
         | I'm a very amateur gardener so I may have made some other
         | mistakes, but I think I treated the plants very similarly both
         | years.
        
           | GoToRO wrote:
           | From what I know, first year after a lomg pause is always
           | amazing. Farmers are paid to let the soil rest 1 year.
        
         | goeiedaggoeie wrote:
         | We use a Lomi to convert our organic waste into compost I can
         | add to my worm farm
         | 
         | and then from the worm farm, mix with outdoor soil and grow in
         | that. A automated a flood and drain system with our fish and
         | cultivate nitrogen fixing bacteria with that, and water the
         | plants with this water every couple of days.
         | 
         | Using these two approaches I have not had to buy any nutrients
         | in years and our soil is doing well.
         | 
         | https://lomi.com/?srsltid=AfmBOor2uvg1DJ2J1E6rXh-8L3iAqzeSD0...
        
           | lm28469 wrote:
           | Why get an electric powered gadget made of plastic and
           | proprietary soft/hardware that will 100% for sure end in a
           | dump in less than 20 years when all you need is a good ol
           | compost bin?
           | 
           | https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bXZG-kzlhPY
        
             | MobiusHorizons wrote:
             | I was originally pretty skeptical of the Lomi as well after
             | seeing this very same video. But my friend got us one and
             | we have been using it for a while now. Sure, it has the
             | same parts as a breadmaker, and it's mostly just drying out
             | and cutting down the organic material into more useful
             | sizes, exactly like he says, but when you put in the
             | enzymes and have it run its dirt cycle it does actually
             | produce meaningfully good compost all with much lower
             | footprint a garden composting setup. I'm not sure I'd pay
             | to buy one new, but but it's not a scam.
        
       | photochemsyn wrote:
       | Odd that an article on healthy soil completely ignores the major
       | health risk from growing food in regions with a long history of
       | industry and mining, eg most of Europe, northeastern USA, etc. -
       | Heavy metal contamination with species like lead, mercury,
       | cadmium etc. There's a huge literature on the subject, but real-
       | world monitoring is pretty light, certainly doesn't look
       | standard:
       | 
       | >"Freslyn Mae, Camata, and Ryna Mae, Capurcos, and Eula Marie,
       | Delino, and Gecelene, Estorico, (2025) Assessing the Sources and
       | Risks of Heavy Metals in Agricultural Soils: A Comprehensive
       | Review. International Journal of Innovative Science and Research
       | Technology"
       | 
       | https://eprint.ijisrt.org/id/eprint/324/
        
         | hinkley wrote:
         | We've gone through rounds of working out if the leafy
         | vegetables absorb the heavy metals or if it's mostly in the
         | dust and last I read we're back to the latter.
         | 
         | White vinegar is better at cleaning vegetables than so called
         | vegetable soaps, and more importantly the acid dissolves soot
         | and heavy metals.
         | 
         | Gallon bottles of white vinegar are cheap. It's also good for
         | laundry especially if you have hard water, or a humid climate.
         | Some people put it in the rinse cycle for their dishwasher as
         | well, instead of rinse aid which is hell on your intestines.
        
       | pfdietz wrote:
       | I don't know about the "hidden ingredient", but...
       | 
       | When I lived in upstate NY our house was on property that had
       | been a glacial lakebed. The soil was a bit sandy, if anything too
       | well drained, but adding lots of leaf mold -- we had more than
       | enough maple trees -- made it retain water adequately, and things
       | grew well.
       | 
       | When it came time to move, we sold the house to a pair of doctors
       | who were moving up from Texas. One of them was just so
       | enthusiastic about how good the soil was, and about the big piles
       | of partially decomposed leaves we had, compared to the terrible
       | clay soil they had down there. So if nothing else, good soil can
       | help property values.
        
       | econ wrote:
       | Humans can figure out a lot given enough time. While all the hype
       | for us is finance, management, machines, electronics and software
       | etc it is not unthinkable a previous civilization went all in on
       | soil. Terra Preta seems to be quite sophisticated.
       | 
       | https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terra_preta
        
         | culi wrote:
         | South America was pretty advanced. The oldest evidence we have
         | of widespread metallurgy comes from the tip of South America
         | around approximately 5000 BC. Which predates metallurgy in
         | Eurasia by thousands of years. Copper smelting was particularly
         | important
         | 
         | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metallurgy_in_pre-Columbian_Am...
         | 
         | On the ecological side, some anthropologists argued that humans
         | actually played a major role in transitioning Amazonia from
         | mostly grasslands to the rainforest it is today around 10,000
         | years ago.
         | 
         | The distribution of many plant species is inexplicable without
         | looking at human settlement patterns. So much so that other
         | anthropologists have called the Amazon a "manufactured
         | landscape".
         | 
         | https://sci-hub.ru/https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007...
        
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