[HN Gopher] Cyberpunk 1958: The Early Days of the Polish IT Indu...
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Cyberpunk 1958: The Early Days of the Polish IT Industry
Author : StefanBatory
Score : 170 points
Date : 2025-04-15 21:01 UTC (4 days ago)
(HTM) web link (culture.pl)
(TXT) w3m dump (culture.pl)
| mrandish wrote:
| > as the inefficiency of the centralisation efforts meant that it
| was met with delays and a lack of coordination.
|
| Starting in 1981, I lived through the evolution of "personal
| computers" and have worked in the startup side of high tech most
| of my career. Even in the U.S. it was hard to create a
| successful, sustainable business in computing. I can't even
| imagine trying to do the same in the Eastern block with central
| planning, lack of ecosystem and myriad other challenges. Here in
| the U.S. there was a rueful saying in tech that "sometimes the
| better product doesn't win" but it was a saying because it was
| _usually_ an exception. At least there was a general expectation
| that better products would win. It 's kind of tragic how much
| engineering talent went to waste or was never utilized behind the
| iron curtain.
|
| A little over 20 years ago I visited Warsaw for a few days and,
| of course, sought out the technology museum. I think I may have
| been the _only_ visitor while I was there. Every large hall had a
| dedicated guard sitting in a chair, who mostly looked like
| retired pensioners. I felt bad because I woke up a lot of nice
| people just walking quietly through. The museum was mostly
| focused on industrial, manufacturing and agricultural technology
| but there was quite an extensive computer hall and it was chock
| full of fascinating mainframe and mini-looking systems I 'd never
| seen, even in pictures. I was surprised that, other than
| terminals, there was little in the way of desktop or home
| computers. Thinking about it I realized that circa 2000, Poland's
| early desktop and home computers were probably still in use and a
| few years away from museum fodder. The only bad part was there
| was virtually no info in English (at least back then) and no
| mobile phone translate apps.
| pndy wrote:
| > Thinking about it I realized that circa 2000, Poland's early
| desktop and home computers were probably still in use
|
| Around 2000 we were already using normal x86 machines in the
| offices and homes. There was a company named Optimus which had
| multiple branches that back then provided: computers
| (assembling and selling these), software - they've become an
| official distributor for e.g. Activision, Ubisoft, Id Software,
| Disney etc., translations for foreign software, and they also
| become one of two offical Nintendo distributors in Poland.
| Optimus had chances to become a really good player here but due
| to financial management "problems" they have failed - to put
| this short. In 2009 Optimus merged with what nowadays is known
| as CD Projekt. Optimus' other child - a web portal known
| originally Optimus Net has become onet.pl and it survived till
| today but become a part of Ringier Axel Springer Poland.
|
| There were specific places which used our "native" machines for
| years. For example last Odra computer was shut down on April
| 30th in 2010 after 34 years of continuos work at Polish
| Railways computer centre.
|
| Beside the technology museum you mentioned there is (or was -
| not sure what happen) an Apple museum in Warszawa - folks
| hoarded over 1700 items under their care.
|
| https://applemuzeumpolska.webflow.io/en/home
|
| https://nmt.waw.pl/en/
|
| Country itself changed in last 20 years and if you haven't seen
| it again in that time, you should return
| mrandish wrote:
| > Around 2000 we were already using normal x86 machines in
| the offices and homes.
|
| Yes, I assumed so but figured if Poland had homegrown 8-bit
| micros in the mid-80s similar to the Galaksija in Yugoslavia
| or the rare Pecom 64 (of which I have one in my collection!),
| that they might still be in original owners hands in 2000
| instead of museums.
|
| > Country itself changed in last 20 years and if you haven't
| seen it again in that time, you should return
|
| It was lovely when I visited but there were still some signs
| of the old soviet era lingering. I'm sure with the economic
| growth since then it's remarkably different today. I hope to
| see it someday!
| viraptor wrote:
| > still be in original owners hands in 2000 instead of
| museums.
|
| Kinda, yes. Almost entirely for sentimental reasons though.
| The longest held ones would still likely be Amigas.
| Virtually only PCs were used in offices in 2000. Industrial
| cases would still hold on to some old machines simply
| because nobody upgrades those. (But that's kind of like
| subways today still working from floppies)
|
| And then there's the in between of dos terminals for
| accounting, inventory, etc. Those were everywhere and
| survived for so much longer than in other countries as far
| as I can tell.
| rasz wrote:
| > if Poland had homegrown 8-bit micros in the mid-80s
|
| Personal possession of Home computers, printers and copiers
| was illegal in Poland under Iron Curtain. After all it
| could be, and often was [1], used to undermine the regime!
|
| Anecdote from book "High-tech behind the Iron Curtain.
| Electronics, computers and control systems in the Polish
| People's Republic" ("High-tech za zelazna kurtyna.
| Elektronika, komputery i systemy sterowania w PRL"
| 978-83-8098-094-5)
|
| >In 1984, "Informatyka" magazine, involved in the
| dissemination of these machines, reported on the adventures
| of Mr. Przemyslaw, who received in April [...] a package
| from his brother in Toronto, containing the VIC-20
| microcomputer, power supply, cassette recorder, a set of
| cassettes for television games and English language manual
| and connecting cables. The Customs Office in Gdynia refused
| to issue an import license, stating that it could issue
| [...] only if the computer was necessary for the citizen's
| professional or scientific work
|
| Computers became legal somewhere around 1985 when Atari
| landed in special regime Pewex enterprise shops - shops
| only accepting hard western currency, currency illegal to
| own privately in the country
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pewex
|
| Elwro computers were sold to ministry of education or send
| to USSR sold for "transfer ruble", a fake currency with
| ridiculous fake official dollar exchange rate making every
| sale a huge loss for the factory. There were amateur DIY
| plans published in magazines, COBRA in AUDIO VIDEO and CA80
| in Radioelektronik. Nobody was manufacturing those
| computers and afaik plans were being published during
| design and debugging making recreation a nightmare. >99% of
| 80s computers in Polish homes came smuggled from the west
| and most went straight to garbage in late nineties. Poland
| freed from russian occupation was getting wealthy really
| fast and nobody had time for obsoleted hardware.
|
| [1] https://hackaday.com/2016/07/05/retrotechtacular-how-
| solidar...
| StefanBatory wrote:
| I tried to see if that book is still available to get,
| doesn't seem like so, at least in paper :< It's certainly
| one I'd love to have on desk.
|
| I hate how with most history books published here, after
| a year or two it's impossible to get them due to low
| print :(
| rasz wrote:
| There are pdfs floating around. Another good read might
| be "Playing and copying: social practices of home
| computer users in Poland during the 1980s" by Patryk
| Wasiak https://www.academia.edu/13353149/Playing_and_copy
| ing_social...
|
| Cant find a way to simply download it :(
| markwrobel wrote:
| Poland had homegrown computers in the mid-80s. One of the
| major Polish computer magazines of the time, Bajtek, was
| published from 85 [1]
|
| Casually looking in the magazines published in 1985,
| during the time of the iron curtain, reveals a lot of fun
| stuff like games and poke codes, but also more serious
| stuff. Nothing here suggest that home computers where
| illegal to have at home.
|
| In fact [2] suggest that home computer use in Poland was
| wide spread.
|
| [1] https://archive.org/details/bajtekmagazine [2] https:
| //www.researchgate.net/publication/290109777_Playing_a...
| rasz wrote:
| In 1985 CoCom, organization controlling export of
| military tech and assessing possibility of using specific
| civilian technologies for military purposes, relaxed
| rules allowing 8-bit computers to go thru.
|
| https://forums.atariage.com/topic/316764-computer-export-
| to-...
|
| Still all computers with a power exceeding 8 bits,
| software for computer-aided design and manufacturing
| (CAD/CAM), software related to sound and image processing
| and artificial intelligence, as well as software used for
| testing computer technology were still strictly
| prohibited.
|
| There were personal computers in Poland before 1985, all
| smuggled and illegal. Just like owning Dollars, Deutsche
| Marks and Pounds was illegal yet there was whole chain of
| official Pewex shops accepting exclusively those
| currencies. Poland was weird like that.
|
| Klaudiusz Dybowski was chief of Commodore corner in
| Bajtek. Interview:
|
| "Wywiad z Klaudiuszem Dybowskim" by (Atari Online PL)
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IC7zYjrSxo
|
| 50:40 timestamp is where he talks how he got his own
| Commodore 64 into Poland in late 1984
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IC7zYjrSxo&t=3043
|
| >"natomiast Musialem zostawic sprzet w urzedzie celnym,
| bo zglosilem ze przywiozlem komputer, "musi pan to
| zostawic, teraz musi pan napisac podanie o zezwolenie na
| posiadanie komputera i wwiezienie go do Polski", i mam to
| podanie, napisalem je, mam do tego [....] od Zarzadu
| Ruchu Lotniczego i Lotnisk Komunikacyjnych dostalem takie
| poparcie "bardzo prosimy zeby mozna to bylo wwiesc,
| komputer bedzie sluzyl do obliczen prodedur itd" i to
| zanioslem, poczekalem 2 tygodnie i komputer odebralem
|
| >"However, I had to leave the equipment at the customs
| office, because I reported entering with a computer, "you
| must leave it with us, now you have to write an
| application for license to import and own a computer",
| and I still have this application, I wrote it .... from
| Zarzad Ruchu Lotniczego i Lotnisk Komunikacyjnych (name
| of company managing Polish airports at the time, his
| employer) I received such support "requesting to grant
| permission, computer will be used for the calculations of
| airport procedures etc." and I took it, I waited 2 weeks
| and I received the computer
|
| So as you see even Bajtek chief had to have a license to
| own mere C64.
| mrandish wrote:
| Holy &#$^!!!
|
| And I thought owning a 4K microcomputer as a suburban
| California teenager in 1981 was lonely and hard! No one
| in my family's extended network had a computer at home,
| nor could they even imagine what you'd do with such a
| thing at home (other than maybe play games which an Atari
| console could do better and much cheaper).
|
| > nobody had time for obsoleted hardware.
|
| Sadly, the same was true in the U.S. although it was
| great for me. In the late 90s I built out my _complete_
| collection of every model of 8-bit micro commonly sold in
| the U.S. in the 80s and early 90s. All the Ataris, all
| the Apples (except that Apple 1 kit of course), all the
| Commodores, all the Radio Shacks, all the Amigas, all the
| Sinclairs, plus dozens more few remember as well as quite
| a few from overseas. And I never paid more than $25 for
| any of them (and many were just given to me for free).
|
| My teenage daughter recently looked up a bunch of them on
| eBay and apparently the collection is probably worth
| north of $100,000. Of course, I told her it's only worth
| that if I was interested in selling them - and I'm not.
| :-)
| markwrobel wrote:
| > if Poland had homegrown 8-bit micros in the mid-80s
|
| Poland had homegrown 8-bit micros in the mid-80s. Take a
| look at the computer magazine Bajtek [1] published from
| 1985, which focused on games and programming.
|
| [1] https://archive.org/details/bajtekmagazine
| thrw99 wrote:
| > due to financial management "problems"
|
| those problems were not management, founder of Optimus- Roman
| Kluska is one of the most briliant minds in Poland, even
| today. Problems were caused by the state itself, first
| directing Optimus to book VAT in certain way, and then the
| same state accusing Optimus of defrauding VAT. Roman Kluska
| was imprisoned and had to pay 8mln PLN to be bailed, later
| when he was deemed not guilty that money was never returned
| to him, not to mention all damage they caused to himself and
| his business. These are leftovers of communism aparatus,
| nobody liable for anything.
| pndy wrote:
| Thus "problems"; I didn't want to dive into whole story
| because this tree is already off-topic for a different
| period. Tho, thanks for a few additional words.
| cromka wrote:
| I actually heard the administration was specifically bribed
| to oust Kluska by the HP who were entering the market at
| that time.
|
| It's a rumor but considering how corrupt was everything
| back then, I find it completely plausible since otherwise
| it would be against Polish raison d'etat to kill a strong,
| homegrown computer manufacturer.
| cheraderama wrote:
| I knew a person who worked in an important role in Optimus
| in the early days... I have a very different image of Roman
| Kluska.
| thrw99 wrote:
| Good for you, friend, he surely is no saint- none of us
| is. But it is fact that all information served in Polish
| media about him were lies- proven in court when he was
| released from all charges. I can't remember media
| lounching the campaign to tell the truth, at the same
| magnitude they were spreading lies. And it is also true
| that he was the one to build Optimus from scratch, he
| started in his garrage- very much the story of Polish
| startup to learn from. Personally I know very few people
| who really liked their boss, and sadly this was
| especially true among Polish people in the '90s. I
| personally know business owners of the time who were
| stolen from by their management and employees. Finally,
| Roman Kluska being devote Catholic makes him many enemies
| simply because of that fact.
| kubb wrote:
| It's fascinating to have a glimpse into a parallel history of
| computing that happened in a small country without the resources
| to make it big, but with tireless efforts of brilliant
| mathematicians and engineers who made the advancements against
| the odds.
|
| If the history ran along a parallel path, I wonder what could
| have been different and what would have ended up exactly the
| same.
|
| For the PL nerds who are curious about Loglan, check out:
| https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Andrzej-Salwicki/public...
| Animats wrote:
| > parallel history of computing
|
| Indeed. Note that on the tape drives, the take-up reel is on
| the left.
| andai wrote:
| Not to be confused with the other Loglan:
|
| http://www.loglan.org/
|
| Which evolved into Lojban:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lojban
| acka wrote:
| Poland may seem small to USians, but it is not a small country
| by any stretch of the imagination, either on a global or
| European scale. It is significantly larger than Austria and
| only slightly smaller than Germany. For context, Poland is
| about 8 times bigger than The Netherlands.
| danielam wrote:
| I found this YouTube channel about the MERA-400, complete with
| interviews with its designer [0]. Unfortunately, it is all in
| Polish.
|
| [0] https://youtube.com/@mera400
| RicoElectrico wrote:
| Fortunately, automatically generated subtitles are often good
| enough.
| nehal3m wrote:
| How would you know if you don't speak the language?
| cromka wrote:
| How do you know they don't?
| chmod775 wrote:
| How do you know you can comprehend someone's English? You
| assume you do because the information conveyed isn't self-
| contradictory or nonsensical, doesn't contradict your
| observed reality and things you know to be true, and is
| unlikely to do so by mere chance.
| andai wrote:
| I noticed if the speaker has a thick accent, it will often
| interpret them as speaking their own native language, and
| generate nonsense.
| blogabegonija wrote:
| also pre cyberpunk movie
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Silver_Globe_(film)
| pinewurst wrote:
| It's not mentioned but the ODRA 1300s were ICT/ICL 1900
| compatibles, pretty far from the Western state of the art (circa
| early 1960s).
| p_l wrote:
| At the time Odra 1300 were in R&D, they were on par - in fact,
| ELWRO and ICL cooperated, so the hardware was locally designed
| but compatible, and base software was essentially localized
| from ICL one + local software packages.
|
| This built a pretty good starting position to work on more
| advanced designs, but then certain stupidity happened in form
| of ES ("Single System") initiative, which a) was based around
| S/360 when S/370 was to be released b) ELWRO was assigned "mid
| performance" machines when it could actually deliver a much
| faster one.
|
| I don't know for certain how true it is, but there's a legend
| that ELWRO prepared a design based on their best, but
| compatible with S/360 and thus rest of ES EVM - just way faster
| in smaller frame (effectively imagine top-tier S/360 CPU but in
| way smaller package), and kept true performance details secret
| until accidental leak caused a small but impactful political
| shitstorm that canceled the efforts.
| tdiff wrote:
| >Developed between 1977 and 1982 on Mera 400 computers by a team
| led by Andrzej Salwicki, Loglan'82 was ahead of its time
|
| > Programmers using Loglan'82 simply did not have to worry about
| issues keeping their Java-using colleagues up at night
|
| Sometimes it would've been better if they just asked LLM to write
| an article.
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