[HN Gopher] Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altere...
___________________________________________________________________
Decreased CO2 during breathwork: emergence of altered states of
consciousness
Author : bookofjoe
Score : 322 points
Date : 2025-04-15 16:23 UTC (3 days ago)
(HTM) web link (www.nature.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.nature.com)
| jkingsman wrote:
| I've had this described to me as basically the combination of
| neuro+psychological effects of hyperventilation (respiratory
| alkalosis) in a peaceful/positive environment (as opposed to
| anxiety-attack-driven or etc.), plus the meditative effects of
| deep breathing, plus the meditative/brain-entrainment effects of
| rhythmic movement of a major central/core muscle (diaphragm).
| Together, those often cause euphoria, altered states of
| consciousness, and cognitive shifts not too far off from
| psychedelics.
|
| Could someone who is more familiar with it affirm, adjust, or
| deny that as a general (medically-grounded/secular) summary of
| breathwork?
| hashmap wrote:
| Put on a five-minute song and start hyperventilating. You can
| tell pretty quick.
| a1371 wrote:
| I have a degree in building science, so maybe I can chime in.
| Note of caution: you will find yourself breathing heavily after
| reading this. It's normal.
|
| We do a terrible job at ventilating our indoor spaces. As a
| cave-dwelling species our brains are quite comfortable with
| tuning out bad smells and tolerating stale air -- but the
| effect of it on our mode and well-being is almost immediate.
| You don't notice the effect, but it is there.
|
| That's why they tell you if the airplane's cabin depressurizes,
| put on your own mask first. People who don't manage to that
| quickly enough their eyes stay open, they don't even feel
| anything is wrong, but they are physically unable to put on
| their masks until they pass out.
|
| If not eating proper food kills you in 3 weeks, not breathing
| proper air kills you in 3 minutes. Yet, people spend thousands
| of dollars on a new diet, but have no idea what kind of stuff
| are going into their lungs.
|
| The situation is not life and death. It's feeling nice versus
| feeling low. People end up with indoor air that is often stale
| and full of volatile compounds. We often make it worse by using
| essential oil diffusers and not using the vent hood when
| cooking.
|
| When you do a breathing exercise, all of a sudden you are
| giving your starving brain a dose of what it could be like.
| When you have a walk in the nature, you do the same.
|
| So yes, breathing exercises are great, but it's even better if
| we fix our indoor environments to feel great at all times.
| pkaye wrote:
| How do you measure indoor air quality? CO2 levels?
| AlchemistCamp wrote:
| Buy an air quality monitor. There are tons on Amazon.
| Here's an example: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DZHJSQ7Z/
| accrual wrote:
| I'ver heard the Aranet4 is quite good for this but haven't
| yet been able to justify buying one. I do try to open
| windows frequently, though.
| malfist wrote:
| I don't get why they're so expensive. You can buy the
| ndir co2 sensor on AliExpress for around $10. And yet
| they want $180 for that thing. And measuring humidity and
| barometric pressure is a component that costs $4 or $5
| for you or I to buy.
| ivm wrote:
| Quality CO2 sensors are pricey. I previously had two from
| AliExpress, but both were unreliable and eventually
| broke. I finally got an Aranet4, and it's been flawless
| for over a year so far.
| brians wrote:
| They're not using a $10 sensor. They're being very
| careful which $40 sensor they use. And they're
| calibrating the rest of the device to produce an accurate
| reading across its range.
| colechristensen wrote:
| Measure VOCs, PM2.5 particles, and CO2
| a1371 wrote:
| Our current understanding is that no amount of CO2 is
| dangerous as long as everything else is fine, but in
| reality CO2 acts like the canary in the coal mine. When it
| climbs, it shows accumulation of stuff you don't want to
| deal with.
|
| Measurement of compounds is best done using a monitor like
| Aranet, but incidental bumps in different values don't mean
| much. Long trends matter. If Radon is an issue in your
| region, a detector for that. Mold testing kits are readily
| available in market indicating moisture issues and you can
| get lead and other hazmat testing done diy/professionally
| kadoban wrote:
| Aren't there several studies showing markedly worse
| performance at tasks at CO2 levels easily reached in a
| home? Or you just mean you won't die as the meaning of
| not dangerous?
| a1371 wrote:
| Studies have shown correlation with CO2 levels and
| performance but pinpointing the effect to CO2 alone
| hasn't been established. In fact, CO2's presence
| chemically helps with the oxygenation of the blood.
|
| CO2 is an indicator. I don't let it climb in my home, and
| you shouldn't either. The problem is when people fixate
| on the CO2 levels. For example, you paint your walls with
| high VOC compounds, your flooring/furniture off-gas a
| lot, your vacuum cleaner doesn't have the proper
| filtration but you don't recognize your issues because
| your CO2 monitor shows 700ppm. That 700ppm can be a lot
| worse than a 700ppm your see in a home that has all of
| those considered.
| kragen wrote:
| You say, "Our current understanding is that no amount of
| CO2 is dangerous as long as everything else is fine," but
| I don't think that is correct. Like any other non-oxygen
| gas, carbon dioxide is an asphyxiant, and it is routinely
| used as such to kill rats, but it has significant
| toxicity even at much lower levels. NIOSH says:
|
| > _Signs of intoxication have been produced by a
| 30-minute exposure at 50,000 ppm [Aero 1953], and a few
| minutes exposure at 70,000 to 100,000 ppm produces
| unconsciousness [Flury and Zernik 1931]. It has been
| reported that submarine personnel exposed continuously at
| 30,000 ppm were only slightly affected, provided the
| oxygen content of the air was maintained at normal
| concentrations [Schaefer 1951]. It has been reported that
| 100,000 ppm is the atmospheric concentration immediately
| dangerous to life [AIHA 1971] and that exposure to
| 100,000 ppm for only a few minutes can cause loss of
| consciousness [Hunter 1975]._
|
| (https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/idlh/124389.html)
|
| 100,000 ppm is 10%, so at that point the carbon dioxide
| has reduced the oxygen in your air from 21% to 19%, far
| from asphyxiation conditions.
|
| Even at much lower levels, carbon dioxide can produce
| drowsiness and mental impairment.
|
| On the other hand, reaching 5% or 10% carbon dioxide by
| oxidizing carbon with oxygen from the air, for example by
| breathing or having a fire, will reduce the oxygen
| content of the air to an extent that is more dangerous
| than the carbon monoxide. So carbon dioxide toxicity is
| generally not the thing to worry about with respect to
| indoor air safety. But that doesn't mean it's not real.
| a1371 wrote:
| It's good to keep in mind that in your home the CO2
| usually ranges from 400ppm to say 2,000 ppm. Getting to
| something like 100,000 ppm is not really plausible for a
| typical home. I get how in a submarine the conditions are
| different.
|
| From 9:50 onwards of this video explains what I meant:
| https://youtu.be/CkGDN85I29U?t=590
| samus wrote:
| The point is that in the scenarios you described CO2
| increases at the cost of _oxygen_ , which is obviously
| not good, and that's what GP was referring to as
| "everything else is fine". It would be interesting to see
| what happens if instead some of the nitrogen in the air
| is replaced by CO2. But that's obviously not what usually
| happens. And there are far more damaging air contents to
| worry about. Like mold spores.
|
| A crucial difference to CO is that CO2 doesn't cause
| permanent damage as long as oxygen supply is restored in
| time. Compared to that, hemoglobine touched by CO becomes
| essentially useless for the body since CO has a similarly
| high binding affinity to hemoglobin as oxygen. Recovering
| from that pretty much requires replacing the affected red
| blood cells.
| Havoc wrote:
| Both particle measures and co2 sensors are somewhat
| affordable especially if buying raw sensors.
|
| The up shot of it is ventilate frequently and dry heat
| cooking that browns anything (think steak in pan) releases
| a shit ton of particle so hood and open window
| cptskippy wrote:
| People seem fixated on measuring CO2 specifically and often
| purchase expensive sensors ($$+) or devices ($$$) to
| measure CO2 levels.
|
| There are inexpensive sensors ($) that detect a variety of
| VOCs but cannot distinguish between them and CO2. They'll
| never give you exact concentrations but they are
| consistent, broad spectrum, and will alert you of change.
| IMO these are a better option.
| Affric wrote:
| Sounds like you're just making the argument for moving to the
| wet tropics
| vwcx wrote:
| The FAA puts on workshops around the country with a portable
| reduced oxygen training enclosure (PROTE). You sit in the
| enclosure (looks like a sealed vinyl tent), they reduce the
| available oxygen and simulate hypoxia. You've got a clipboard
| with some basic math problems, a maze to trace, etc. The
| trainers continually engage you for 3-4 minutes as you slowly
| get more hypoxic.
|
| As a pilot, it was eye opening to see first-hand what happens
| to _me_ when experiencing hypoxia. The trainers were talking
| to me, and I was replying, but was unable to tell them what
| 17 minus 4.5 was. My pulse oximeter was in the low 70s. Two
| sips of oxygen from a mask and I was right back to normal. I
| learned that my first symptom (the clue that something is
| really going wrong in the cockpit) is tunnel vision.
| j_bum wrote:
| Destin from Smarter Every Day (YouTube) has a wonderful video
| demonstrating this effect [0]. I'd recommend watching the
| whole thing, but you can see how much of an effect it has
| starting around the 6:00 mark.
|
| [0] https://youtu.be/kUfF2MTnqAw?si=LRDtSJSy7jiTIpzy
| quantum_state wrote:
| What you described is indeed true. There are breathing sessions
| at the Lifetime gym provide exactly the condition. People
| involved were amazed by the effect on their metal state.
| ValveFan6969 wrote:
| I'm a philosopher, not a medical professional. But I can tell
| you that philosophy and deep breathing are inextricably linked.
| Breathing deeply in of itself is a philosophical exercise, one
| that centers and grounds oneself in the here and now of the
| universe that surrounds you, and the universe that lies deep
| within you. It's a cosmic balance between the metaphysical and
| the empirical. As a philosopher, one must be able to breathe
| deeply, so one can breathe in, hold, and spew out the deepest
| and most esoteric pearls of knowledge unto the masses.
| tinix wrote:
| Ah yes, the philosopher's breath: inhale the cosmos, exhale
| epistemology. Repeat until the loop collapses or you do.
| jkingsman wrote:
| This made me laugh out loud; thank you haha
| crummyglow wrote:
| >Together, those often cause euphoria, altered states of
| consciousness, and cognitive shifts not too far off from
| psychedelics.
|
| It must vary between people, because no matter the environment
| if I breath too eager, whether on purpose or accidentally (like
| working out) it just becomes really hard to think, everything
| starts to tingle and all my muscles lock up. A very not-fun
| time. Also dangerous with weights.
| maebert wrote:
| The tingles and muscle cramps (tetany) are a normal byproduct
| (basically your neurons on your smallest muscles and under
| your skin get more excitable due to a molecular rube goldber
| machine set off by lower CO2 balance in your blood). It's
| uncomfortable, but unless you are suffering from epilepsy not
| dangerous and there's no lasting effects.
|
| I did a longer writeup on the physiological effects here if
| you're interested: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RuDv_E
| 9osM1CCFWZMywMru9J...
| maebert wrote:
| Very much on point.
|
| That said when facilitate breathwork sessions i trade the
| peaceful hippie music for edm (and it actually works better
| because it encourages people to stay with the rhythm and get
| into the same mildly trance-like state you might get into while
| exercising to repetitive music).
| shishironline wrote:
| Your summary is exact. Medical personnel here
| pedalpete wrote:
| I've experimented with holotropic breathwork, and was quite
| amazed at the experience. Unfortunately, as much as I've tried to
| re-create the experience while not lead, I find my mind just
| doesn't want to go beyond about 5-10 minutes of breathing, vs the
| 30 minutes I did in breathwork sessions.
|
| Having said that, I think the design of this study could be much
| improved. It shouldn't be too difficult to create a double blind
| group environment using headphones (think like a silent disco)
| where both participants and researchers don't know who is
| listening to guided or not.
|
| I'm also not sure if the biomarkers are the best. DMT can
| apparently be detected in saliva, and I believe the theory is
| that during holotropic breathwork, the pineal gland releases more
| DMT than normal.
| rqtwteye wrote:
| " find my mind just doesn't want to go beyond about 5-10
| minutes of breathing, vs the 30 minutes I did in breathwork
| sessions."
|
| Same for me. I did a workshop with Wim Hof and the breathing
| exercises were great with really profound effects. But I
| couldn't make myself practicing at home with the same intensity
| regularly. I also developed a pretty bad cough after a few
| weeks. Probably from the dry air where I live.
| maebert wrote:
| it's an incredibly hard workout, depending on the style you're
| actually using a lot of muscles that you don't typically
| exercise, so your body wants to naturally give up after a
| while. it took me probably 6-8 sessions until I could reliably
| do one myself.
| bentt wrote:
| I got into doing this Wim Hof breathing exercise a few years ago
| and it was definitely intense. Unsure if this is related but
| sounds similar.
|
| https://youtu.be/0BNejY1e9ik?si=kgBBUhqMe9HWaKCG
| onemoresoop wrote:
| Intense but did you get any lasting change from it? Are you
| still practicing? I did some breathwork and disturbed something
| with my natural breathing pattern. For about two weeks I had
| insomnias and was constantly lightheaded. Im reluctant to try
| again..
| maroonblazer wrote:
| What kind of breathwork did you do?
| onemoresoop wrote:
| Circular but without outside supervision. Not sure if I did
| something wrong or if I need some customized practice. I am
| often running out of breath/out of sync breathwise when
| singing, often getting lightheaded effect which I do not
| like at all.
| bentt wrote:
| I did it when I was really working on myself emotionally and
| it was for a limited time. It could be a bit scary because of
| the extreme feeling of lightheadedness. But it did cause a
| pseudo euphoric feeling too. Afterward I felt invigorated.
|
| But yeah it had a layer of unpleasantness that made me not
| continue long term.
| prox wrote:
| I used to teach various pranayama's (yogic breathwork) and we
| tend to go easy, especially if you are not going to go into a
| 3 year seclusion as a lifetime yogi.
|
| All practices were 3 breaths only. If you really enjoyed one
| or the other, you can do them a few times a day.
|
| Because exactly as you say, you don't want to disturb the
| natural pattern. If you have an unhealthy breathing pattern,
| the idea is that yoga, rest and relaxation will take care of
| the rest.
|
| Beyond that we are not doctors, so if I noticed something
| peculiar with someone's breathing, or it came up, I would
| direct them to a professional.
|
| I never liked the Hof method, it works on the wrong side of
| the nervous system for me, as it's too activated. I feel it's
| good perhaps if you got to do something stressful and you
| need resilience.
| bentt wrote:
| Yeah the Wim Hof breathing feels more like a challenge or
| test that you come down from than a relaxing thing.
| Consistent with his "jump in ice water" thing.
| replete wrote:
| I wonder if there's a vagal nerve effect from the increased chest
| pressure while holding your breath in.
|
| I do the 'double sharp inhale' method for the anxiolytic effect
| occasionally - not really something you can do at the office
| however.
| groos wrote:
| I hate getting startled, even when I realize right away that
| there is nothing to worry about. But the physiological effects,
| once set in motion, carry on. My heart seems to skip a beat and
| then rev up to a high rate and it's uncomfortable, taking some
| time to come back down to normal.
|
| Some years ago, I discovered a technique to suppress the effect
| of being startled. I just breathe in sharply, using mostly my
| diagphragm, before my heartrate goes up and it keeps things
| normal as usual. I wonder if this is also using the vagus nerve
| to suppress being startled?
| djmips wrote:
| That sounds like an excellent theory.
| ordu wrote:
| _> I wonder if this is also using the vagus nerve to suppress
| being startled?_
|
| I don't know about vagus nerve, but I can propose a different
| explanation. Emotions can change the state of your body, your
| brain feels the state and triggers emotions. It can become a
| self-reinforcing loop. In particular, diaphragm contractions
| or tension can be such a state. For example, I have sometimes
| issues with getting rid of anxiety, and when it happens, it
| is because of my diaphragm. It becomes tensed, I feel it and
| so I feel anxious. To get rid of anxiety I need to a)
| rationalize it away and b) keep my diaphragm relaxed.
|
| When you overload your diaphragm with some irrelevant
| activity you may be breaking the self-reinforcing loop. Or
| maybe this movements of your diaphragm trigger some other
| response that wins. As a wild guess, your organism expect
| that after a deep breath you'll hold your breath for some
| time, and so it limits the heart-rate to not burn oxygen too
| fast.
| enaaem wrote:
| This is btw the whole idea behind Vipassana. The idea is
| that most of your suffering comes from your unconscious
| reaction to bodily sensations and you can train yourself to
| become more aware and equanimous.
| chrisweekly wrote:
| > "Our findings identify physiological boundary conditions for
| ASCs to arise in a non-pharmacological context, shedding light on
| the functional mechanisms of breathwork as well as its potential
| as a psychotherapeutic tool."
|
| Such a great topic for study; these findings are unsurprising to
| me, but I'm delighted to see them published by Nature.com
| aaron695 wrote:
| Astronauts in the Gemini and Apollo programs breathed 100 percent
| oxygen at reduced pressure for up to two weeks
|
| There are no reports of "altered states of consciousness" I know
| of. There would have been rigorous testing before.
|
| Similarly divers, I've never heard of lack/decreased CO2 causing
| their hallucinations vs nitrogen narcosis or hydrogen narcosis.
|
| This sounds made up, have they been getting high on their own
| supply?
| maebert wrote:
| Good observation! Lower co2 concentration isn't caused by
| simply inhaling more oxygen, but rather by blowing off too much
| co2.
|
| Co2 is produced by the body, and the rate at which it is
| produced doesn't change much if you breathe pure oxygen. it's
| how we get rid of the co2 is what is being modulated during
| breathwork.
| LawrenceKerr wrote:
| Those astronauts maintain normal CO2 levels, and divers can
| experience increased CO2 buildup if they don't exhale properly,
| which is the opposite.
|
| It's not made up. Plenty of people here who tried breathwork
| can attest to its power to bring you in strong trance-like
| states.
|
| Try it yourself. Ideally in group setting, because doing this
| on your own (with a YouTube video or whatever) won't give you
| the same experience at all, and could be dangerous if you take
| it too far.
| dukeofdoom wrote:
| I don't mean to be too critical, but why is breathwork/meditation
| so popular in Atheist circles? When I would presume rationality
| is the goal, and this seems like it would alter it in a negative
| way. (depriving your brain of oxygen, presumably decreases its
| ability to think rationally, or at least run at full capacity)
|
| I get that someone like Sam Harris, makes bank promoting his
| meditation app. But his atheist audience is very receptive.
| aiiizzz wrote:
| Depriving? The goal is to oversaturate.
| sp3000 wrote:
| If you presume rationality is the goal, then the rational mind
| should point to decades of research and anecdotal evidence that
| shows the positive effeccts of meditation and breathwork on
| mental well-being. Why are you assuming depriving your brain of
| oxygen for a short period of time is decreases the ability to
| think rationally? That could be a short term effect, but a long
| term adaptive effect could be the brain thinks more clearly.
| Same with fasting from food, etc.
| dukeofdoom wrote:
| Well, if one's thoughts can be altered depending on the
| amount of oxygen the brain receives. How can you possibly be
| sure about your own rationality. Couldn't you rationally
| start to question anything you've come to a conclusion about
| before, as just a byproduct of your brain's oxygen levels at
| that time.
| collingreen wrote:
| The best part about true things is they are still true
| whether you believe and understand them or not. Seeking
| truth isn't limited by your ability to understand
| everything.
| dukeofdoom wrote:
| I'm not sure about that. If there's no conscious mind to
| interpret something, can anything possibly be True? Or is
| it just information.
| rixed wrote:
| I believe by "true things" what is meant is "as good as a
| real world experience as one can get", rather than
| "logically sound".
|
| It is certainly reasonable to argue about whether logic
| stands on its own without an observer, but not to doubt
| that there is a true world out there to be experienced.
| HK-NC wrote:
| Oddly enough becoming a serious athlete, changing my diet
| and training as my job, completely changed who I am and
| remembering my thought processes and overall mental state
| of the previous lifestyle is bizarre as though that person
| is truly alien to my current self.
| dukeofdoom wrote:
| So increasing your VO2 max, has improved how your brain
| functions. A few years ago, I read an article where they
| improved kids Math scores by having them exercise on a
| treadmill before class.
| jfengel wrote:
| I used Harris's app, and was a bit surprised to hear him use
| language that he'd savage anyone else for.
|
| I get the problem there; you're trying to teach what something
| feels like, and there just aren't words.
|
| It's not surprising that you can alter the brain by various
| exercises, or that those exercises are counterintuitive. The
| brain is complicated and our tools for manipulating it are
| baroque. Still, it was a little weird to hear Harris give in
| without apparently reconsidering other forms of mental exercise
| from that standpoint.
| collingreen wrote:
| Atheism isn't specifically "a goal of rationality" it's just
| not believing in a deity (usually because of a rejection of
| "trust me bro, now pay your tithing" style pitches). I expect
| for most people the choice to believe or not believe stories
| with no evidence is orthogonal to the choice of an altered
| mind.
| cgio wrote:
| It looks like you put atheism and agnosticism in the same
| boat. There's a certain belief, trust and conviction to lack
| of a deity in atheism. Not in agnosticism. That state of mind
| is orthogonal to belief is mostly true. On the other hand ,
| there is also a motivation to explain away religious
| experience as physiological process, which explains the
| overlap in group membership.
| alpaca128 wrote:
| > There's a certain belief, trust and conviction to lack of
| a deity in atheism
|
| Atheism means a lack of belief in a god. Just because many
| atheists go a step further or the word _agnostic_ exists,
| that doesn 't change the meaning.
|
| I have yet to see an "official" source that says it's
| definitely belief of absence and not absence of belief.
| Agnosticism works just as well if you view it as
| subcategory of atheism.
| collingreen wrote:
| My understanding is atheism is not believing in a deity (a
| - without, theism - belief in deity) and agnosticism is
| about not knowing (sometimes not knowing if it's possible
| to know). It gets messy because plenty of folks play games
| with the words like "clearly I don't believe the major,
| self-contradicting religions but maybe there is some deity
| out there somehow that had an influence beyond 'natural
| processes'" or that Einstein quote about calling the beauty
| of physics and the universe "god".
|
| Similar to what you said about me, I think you're perhaps
| putting faith/religious dogma and spirituality/holding
| things sacred in the same boat. I think having awe or
| wonder or a feeling of being part of something bigger is
| again orthogonal to belief in a particular god. I don't
| even think religion is the dividing line here - religion
| and ritual exists all over without an overarching deity.
|
| I liked the underlying idea to what you said about
| motivation to explain away religious experience as
| physiological process; I think there is something
| interesting there. I expect this is a result of what people
| already believe, not a cause, but I like the concept of how
| people take in new information and default to directing it
| to "knowable, let's figure it out" or some version of
| "unknowable".
|
| tl;dr - not believing in a god seems separate from
| spirituality and religious experience. Theist and atheist
| are extremely high level (and one dimensional) labels and
| there is a LOT of diverse (and overlapping) belief and
| experience under each.
| dayvigo wrote:
| I study cognitive neuroscience. Meditation is _extremely_
| evidence-based. It is literally one of the most evidence-based
| things there is in terms of actions you can take to improve
| mood, executive function, focus, general cognition, etc., it 's
| almost as backed as physical exercise. Of course, there is also
| a lot of woo-woo spiritual stuff around it, but you can just
| ignore that side and use it effectively. Not sure about
| breathwork, I'm moderately skeptical of many the claims made
| about it, but I haven't looked super far into it comparatively.
| FrustratedMonky wrote:
| You are mixing up religion and meditation.
|
| Think of meditation more as a physical exercise for the brain,
| like yoga. Is yoga a religion, even if it strengthens your
| core? Many people do it without any religious ideas.
|
| Same with breathing, 'low CO2' sounds bad, but we do have the
| next breath, the goals isn't continued low CO2, it can lead to
| increased oxygen later.
|
| As to rationality. Meditation helps declutter thoughts, so that
| helps with rationality doesn't it? Why would being strung out
| and stressed be more rational?
| dripdry45 wrote:
| In yoga breath work which happens there is directly tied into the
| rest of the practice. it isn't taught enough in America, but if
| you find an actual good teacher, of which there do not seem to be
| many, the benefits are wonderful. Anecdotally and from personal
| experience, they say that when beginning a consistent practice
| you will often feel a great euphoria after practicing for 60 or
| 90 minutes. Can confirm; and it lasts for a couple hours also.
| someothherguyy wrote:
| At what level do you experience euphoria? Say on a scale of a
| low dose of codeine to a standard dose of heroin? Or is it more
| like the euphoria you get from running? Or the euphoria you get
| from tripping? Or the euphoria associated with some strains of
| cannabis? Or the euphoria associated with amphetamines? Or the
| euphoria associated with ethanol consumption?
| ta988 wrote:
| Or is it the same euphoria that you are perceiving
| differently
| latchkey wrote:
| Sivananda teaches pranayama as part of their core practice.
| They are based globally with multiple ashrams in the US.
|
| https://sivanandayogafarm.org/
| maebert wrote:
| i am a (former) neuroscientist and breathwork facilitator (mostly
| conscious connected breath) -- AMA.
|
| the effect of decreased co2 concentration on vasoconstrictions
| (and also alkalosis-induced tetany, ie your muscles cramping,
| which happens a lot during breathwork) are well known [1], but
| i've never seen them quantified in such a clear way. It's cool to
| see mainstream science give it a closer look!
|
| [1] for anyone interested, I wrote an explainer here:
| https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RuDv_E9osM1CCFWZMywMru9J...
| s1artibartfast wrote:
| As a Neuroscientist and breathwork facilitator, do you think
| there is any harm in intentional apnea (e.g. free diving,
| static holds, ect)?
|
| At what point does cell damage (not necessarily death), kick
| in? As someone involved in these sports, I operate under the
| assumption that any damage would kick in _after_ loss of
| consciousness. For example, if I hold my breath, even for 4 or
| 5 minutes but dont pass out, that is an indication I am still
| in the range of safe practice. Anecdotally, I know many people
| who have spent their lives doing breathholds, and they dont
| seem any worse for wear.
|
| Are there any high quality studies that look at potential brain
| damage prior to loss of consciousness?
| eigenschwarz wrote:
| Does this help? I am a physicist with interest in these
| subjects and have always been wary of breathwork because of
| tetany and the following studies. What do experts closer to
| this field make of these?
|
| [1] "Brain Damage in Commercial Breath-Hold Divers" https://j
| ournals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal...
|
| [2] "Do elite breath-hold divers suffer from mild short-term
| memory impairments?"
| https://cdnsciencepub.com/doi/10.1139/apnm-2017-0245
|
| Ref. [2] is especially concerning to me in pushing in any
| sort of static apnea training or breathwork: "The time to
| complete the interference card test was positively correlated
| with maximal static apnea duration (r = 0.73, p < 0.05) and
| the number of years of breath-hold diving training (r = 0.79,
| p < 0.001)."
| sentimentscan wrote:
| Could you please explain more about the Ref[2], what does
| it mean beyond what is in article and how serious is it?
| "These findings suggest that breath-hold diving training
| over several years may cause mild, but persistent, short-
| term memory impairments"
|
| Can you tell more about recreational nitrous oxide and when
| does the "damage occur"? Is there the same thing with wim
| hof? (like for example with oximeter 80 Sp02 or below?) I
| got in wimhof/oxide around 80 Sp02 the interesting thing is
| I got this feeling with fighting to hold my breath but
| below 90 I kinda needed to convince myself that I should
| breath in both cases,
| eigenschwarz wrote:
| Being a non-expert I can't attempt to speculate on your
| questions in good faith! All I was suggesting to the
| parent is that perhaps these articles offer as evidence
| of damage being done without pushing to the point of
| unconsciousness? Feedback is definitely welcome by an
| expert.
| maebert wrote:
| Key difference here is that freediving is apnea-induced
| hypoxia, whereas breathwork is literally the opposite:
| hyperventilation-induced hyperoxia.
|
| So while interesting as a study, I don't think it offers
| any insight into the kind of breathwork described in the
| nature study.
| kragen wrote:
| Thank you, this is terrific! Why should tetany be
| worrisome?
|
| Edited to add: the second article seems to be about
| decompression injuries, rather than apnea-induced brain
| damage?
| eigenschwarz wrote:
| In a medical setting, where I am more familiar with it,
| tetany is never good. Personally it is also wildly
| uncomfortable. Perhaps it's fine and somehow pushing
| through it is part of the "experience", but if I want an
| altered consciousness I'll stick to a psilocybin-based
| retreat every 5-10 years and my meditation practice in
| between :D.
| kragen wrote:
| It is definitely uncomfortable and can produce at least
| minor injuries; I was wondering if there were other
| reasons to worry.
| maebert wrote:
| yeah in a medical setting it's usually never good, but
| afaik it's not the tetany that doctors are worried about
| about but rather what's causing it.
|
| I did a longer write-up on the physiological effects
| which you might find interesting: https://docs.google.com
| /document/d/1RuDv_E9osM1CCFWZMywMru9J...
| kragen wrote:
| Is this the same thing you linked upthread? At first
| glance the URL looks the same.
| maebert wrote:
| Yes, sorry for crossposting, just seemed relevant here
| kragen wrote:
| No worries!
| maebert wrote:
| So the tetany in breathwork is generally caused by the
| decreased CO2 concentration causing respiratory alkalosis
| (ie blood gets more alkaline and has a ph balance of >
| 7.5), which in turn causes the protein albumin to bind more
| strongly to calcium and not release it as it's supposed to,
| and calcium is an important regulator in voltage gated ion
| channels in neurons.
|
| Long story short, your neurons get just a tad bit more
| excitable because calcium that usually acts like the
| bouncer to the hot club is busy snogging albumin. That has
| very little effect in places in the body, but in motor
| neurons that control your smallest muscles (face and hand),
| and in sensory neurons under your skin it does move the
| needle -- that causes the muscles to contract and your skin
| to feel tingly, both exactly the same cause.
|
| This is the reason people with epilepsy should _NOT_ do
| breathwork, but for otherwise healthy adults there are no
| negative long term effects of respiratory alkalosis -- a
| few normal breaths to balance out your co2 and the symptoms
| will go away.
| ScottBurson wrote:
| I've done breathwork for years, and at some point the
| tetany simply stopped happening and hasn't returned.
| elevaet wrote:
| This is a bit off topic, but what do you think about people
| doing nitrous recreationally? It's always concerned me that
| people are inhaling close to pure nitrous oxide and holding it
| in. I've always wondered if this creates damaging low-oxygen
| conditions without the normal reflexes kicking in, and if this
| can cause brain/neuronal damage.
|
| I believe in medical settings it's delivered in a mixture with
| O2, but in recreational settings it's usually inhaled directly.
|
| I see a lot more talk about the risks of vitamin B12 depletion,
| and not much talk about O2 deprivation, so not sure if everyone
| else is crazy or if it's me who is the crazy one.
| Youden wrote:
| I was being treated with nitrous medically. I asked the
| anaesthesiologist about how it works recreationally and his
| answer was that yes, it was mostly just hypoxia.
| meindnoch wrote:
| Bullshit. You aren't supposed to be hypoxic when using
| nitrous. You take a half-breath of air, and then breathe in
| the n2o.
| laserlight wrote:
| So, you get half the oxygen needed and somehow doing so
| doesn't cause hypoxia, which means "deficiency in the
| amount of oxygen reaching the tissues"?
| meindnoch wrote:
| You don't get half the oxygen. You get as much oxygen as
| you would during normal calm breathing, which is pretty
| shallow. Basically, you take a normal breath, which is
| about 50% lung volume, and then fill your lung up to max
| capacity with n2o.
|
| But you know what? Pulse oximeters are pretty cheap
| nowadays. Try it for yourself.
| laserlight wrote:
| I see. So, you take a normal breath and top it up with
| N2O. That makes sense.
| soulofmischief wrote:
| This is easily falsified by a cursory internet search about
| the physiological mechanism behind nitrous oxide's effects.
| It is appalling that a medical professional would so
| confidently give you an uneducated, crackpot answer. The
| exact same mechanism which knocks you out gives you
| euphoria at lower doses.
|
| If someone holds their breath long enough to cause hypoxia
| when inhaling nitrous oxide, they have other problems. You
| can easily hold your breath 1-2 minutes while sitting on a
| couch without experiencing hypoxia. If you're experiencing
| euphoria as strong as what nitrous oxide causes from
| hypoxia, you're basically about to die.
| klik99 wrote:
| This is why you shouldn't trust experts on stuff outside
| their speciality, this answer is just wrong.
|
| You don't even need to research it, the lived experience of
| being in a dentist office with mixed oxygen and nitrous
| produces the recreational effects - if it was mostly
| hypoxia, having oxygen mixed in would have a greatly
| diminished "recreational" effect.
|
| I mean, it is true most people doing it recreationally are
| giving themselves mild to severe hypoxia, but that doesn't
| mean the effect is caused by hypoxia
| maebert wrote:
| I'm not one to tell people not to have fun, but i also lost a
| friend to respiratory failure after prolonged nitrous abuse,
| and had more then one start having auditory hallucinations. I
| think it's waning in popularity compared to 10 years ago, but
| maybe I'm just out of touch with what the kids get high on
| these days
| dluan wrote:
| As a surfer, I've done a few breathwork classes even though I've
| never been close to being in conditions that really needed it.
| There is a tremendous amount of training that you can do to
| basically change your conscious thoughts in an instant. Going
| from 180bpm heart rate and anxious panic to a static breath hold
| for up to a minute while being ragdolled and disoriented, is
| basically ego death. If you watch some gnarly big wave surfers
| talk about breathwork, they talk about rapidly flushing out your
| air in 3-4 big breaths, calming your heart rate, and even
| laughing, all right before or in anticipation of a pounding. Plus
| the whole Gerry Lopez yoga and meditation era of the 70s made it
| clear how important breathing and mental state were.
|
| In any case, this is something every single surfer beyond a
| certain level is required to master, so I'd love to see data from
| that kind of cohort. The old lady freedivers of Jeju Island would
| be cool too.
| underdeserver wrote:
| For someone with no connection to surfing at all, could you
| elaborate? Why is surfing special, or different from other
| sports, in needing to control your breathing?
| OsrsNeedsf2P wrote:
| You can get hit by multiple waves in succession while
| surfing, preventing you from breathing for up to a minute. If
| you're at 180bpm and not breathing for a minute, you won't be
| coming back up
| timewizard wrote:
| If I need to hold my breath underwater for a longer period of
| time I'll hyperventilate on the surface just a little before
| diving. In my experience your lungs don't "burn" as quickly
| and so you can dive a little longer.
| nikitoci wrote:
| It's dangerous, since hyperventilating removes co2 from
| your blood, and raised co2 level is primary trigger for the
| urge to breathe reflex. It may feel better to
| hyperventilate and dive longer but you're risking suddenly
| blacking out. I'm a free diver and this is one of the first
| things you are trained not to do, as well as never to dive
| alone, for safety reasons.
| timewizard wrote:
| Ah the wisdom has changed. This was more often taught
| when I was younger, which yes, was quite a while ago. The
| warnings given then were don't go for depth with this
| method, exhale occasionally while underwater, and manage
| your breath again immediately on the surface.
| FrojoS wrote:
| Interesting. Got a good source? I should definitely look
| into this again.
| timewizard wrote:
| The people around the pool and lake where I grew up? From
| what I'm reading while searching it seems that
| "hyperventilate" is probably a bad term for the type of
| breathing I was shown. We wouldn't do it until we felt a
| conscious change like dizziness but more like 4 to 8 good
| deep full and fast breaths before holding, enough to
| notice, but not so much that it presented the dangers I'm
| now reading about.
| Azrael3000 wrote:
| That is still considered hyperventilation as a freediver,
| even though you might not feel any symptoms. The
| suggestions you gave in your previous post are dangerous
| and should not be done. Please take a proper course to
| learn about free diving physiology and safety. Otherwise
| this sport can get dangerous very quickly.
| literalAardvark wrote:
| Any freediving course. You have to breathe normally for
| an extended time, then dive, then take an extended break,
| hyperventilation just makes it easier for you to get
| yourself killed.
| jboggan wrote:
| https://www.divessi.com/en/get-certified/freediving
| https://www.padi.com/education/freediving
| https://www.freedivinginstructors.com/ https://www.aidain
| ternational.org/Education/AIDAFreedivingCo...
|
| I've only taken the SSI training but I guarantee none of
| the different freediving organizations will recommend the
| type of breathing you are discussing, and in fact a large
| part of the intro course hammers home that you don't
| breathe that way.
| OxO4 wrote:
| Freedivers are also taught not to exhale underwater,
| because it wastes oxygen and lowers your CO2 level,
| making it harder to know when you actually have to come
| back up. Your body can't sense the level of oxygen it
| has, so freedivers rely on CO2 levels as a proxy, so
| messing with it is dangerous.
| nikitoci wrote:
| And you also becoming much less buoyant and will not
| surface without actively swimming or pulling the line.
| FrustratedMonky wrote:
| So just curious. You do want to have the CO2 levels, so
| you get the trigger to breath? But to free dive don't you
| want to stay down longer? So is the method more about
| dealing with the urges? Mental ways to understand the
| urge to breath, but be able to block it?
| aqme28 wrote:
| There are two gases that need to be exchanged when you
| breathe. You need to get rid of CO2 and you need to get
| O2. When you hyperventilate, you purge CO2, but don't
| really change your O2 content.
|
| This matters only because CO2 is what triggers your
| desire to breathe, but O2 is what causes you to actually
| pass out or not. So what happens is that you might pass
| out before you realize you need to come up for air.
| Azrael3000 wrote:
| Correct. You can deal with the urge to breathe with your
| brain. High co2 has additional benefits for your
| metabolism, you just need to deal with it. If that sounds
| interesting take a free diving course its a great way to
| learn more about this fascinating sport.
| FrojoS wrote:
| You can somewhat simulate it yourself.
|
| Lie down, do a push up, then jump up to your feet, upright,
| arms raised (Burpee). Repeat in rapid succession twelve
| times, then immediately shut your mouth and close your nose
| with your hand. Hold it. Close your eyes and imagine you are
| under water and don't know how long it will take till you can
| resurface.
|
| You will feel an immediate urge to breath, a very unpleasant
| feeling in your throat, nose, ears, etc, and an immediate
| feeling of panic. That feeling is AFAIK caused by heightened
| CO2 levels [1].
|
| Imagine trying to fight your way to the surface, in a panic,
| but the turbulence of the wave is too strong and keeps you
| down. Instead you have to accept the feeling of panic without
| acting on it, converse your energy while being rag dolled and
| pounded, trying not to dislocate your joints, keep or regain
| your sense of orientation, and wait for the moment that the
| turbulence subsides to the point it is possible to surface
| again.
|
| You have little control over when that moment finally comes.
| And while seconds start to feel like eternities you might
| start telling yourself to never go surfing again. As time
| drags on, your resolve increases, to the point you might act
| on it once, and if, you finally resurface.
|
| [1] I have no expertise but this is what I was told and this
| source seems to somewhat confirm https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
| /articles/PMC3138667/#:~:text=In...
| cbogie wrote:
| > Lie down, do a push up, then jump up to your feet,
| upright, arms raised (Burpee). Repeat in rapid succession
| twelve times, then immediately shut your mouth and close
| your nose with your hand. Hold it. Close your eyes and
| imagine you are under water and don't know how long it will
| take till you can resurface.
|
| you forget, 'put a blindfold on and tie your leg to a
| doberman's leash then fall down 3-6 flights of stairs'
|
| pretty similar forces and sensory at play, or at least a
| similar thrashing to big Teahupo'o over a sharp reef.
| pizzafeelsright wrote:
| A safe way to get a similar disorienting experience is
| hold your breath under water while in a tight ball and
| have someone spin you on every direction and reverse it
| until you can't stand it and then wait another ten
| seconds.
|
| I recall being swallowed by a wave and while under for
| only a short period i thought it was annoying not knowing
| when I'd return to the surface.
| zemvpferreira wrote:
| Because panicking when you're being rag-dolled by even
| smallish waves can kill you, let alone waves of consequence.
| I don't have the words to describe what it feels like to be
| pushed to the bottom of the ocean by a wave, then just as you
| feel like you're running out of air be pushed back down by
| the next wave, and the next wave. You have no idea which
| direction is up and which is down, or how long it's been
| since you stopped breathing. 30 seconds will feel like death
| if you're not properly trained. Your very large very stiff
| board will be tumbling with you and could knock you
| unconscious or split your head open at any time.
|
| My girlfriend got to be a decent surfer (~5 years practice
| and a former competitive swimmer) but never invested in
| learning the ocean. In 2018 she went out in a break she
| didn't know, in conditions above her league. Nothing too big
| (maybe 5 feet) but strong and relentless. Conclusion: She got
| sucked into the washing machine during a set and nearly
| drowned. Had to have the water beaten out of her lungs to
| restart breathing. Now she has panic attacks just getting
| into a flat ocean for a swim.
|
| The sea is no joke. I encourage everyone to try surfing, it's
| a great hobby. But less than 10% of it is riding waves.
| Davidzheng wrote:
| Not the most convincing advertisement
| endlessvoid94 wrote:
| Just a different type of fun. I find avalanche training
| to have a similar effect for backcountry.
|
| For some it's sobering, for others it's terrifying.
| elif wrote:
| Yes my wife and I were watching a group of hikers one
| time and we both looked at each other and talked about
| how none of them had even seen a demo on using an ice
| axe. It felt like walking into a kitchen and seeing the
| chefs juggling knives
| endlessvoid94 wrote:
| Yep, and sadly it's a typical story in the backcountry,
| sometimes ending tragically.
| mnky9800n wrote:
| I find it highly motivating
| FrustratedMonky wrote:
| He's using an anecdote. So, yeah, not a study.
|
| The only point being made is panicked breathing before
| disaster, versus a little training and a few controlled
| breaths before disaster. And that he also experienced
| maybe some of the same mind altering effects of
| breathing.
|
| Since we all breath, I think in this type of thread we'll
| find lots of anecdotes around this subject.
| zemvpferreira wrote:
| Surfers try to scare away would-be-surfers. Less waves
| for thee, more waves for me. I don't even have a
| girlfriend.
| bolognafairy wrote:
| THAT's where I knew to not believe you!
| metalman wrote:
| "the sea is no joke" trvth I was blessed with "over" sized
| lungs, and like swimming underwater, and hiking in
| mountains, so have enjoyed bieng able to do those things
| with minimal effort. When living in a city, I swam in an
| olympic size pool, and can go two lengths? (back and forth
| once+) undewater , but have no idea of how this actualy
| compares to an average. Got into doing the ?wim hoffman?
| breathing and like that, but have never noticed any altered
| conciousness, but that might be because my lungs are so
| large that I will need to realy realy push it? dont know,
| but after a car accident I was xrayed, and they were very
| surprised that the xrays, had to be redone, in two parts,
| as my lungs dont fit on a standard xray. I sing, and can
| hold a low note for a long time, and am kind of loud and
| boomy, unless I am carefull, which is a down side, as it is
| alarming for people in enclosed spaces. So breath work from
| the perspective of fine controll and exploring actual true
| limits, is something that is suddenly, looking like a good
| idea, for me. consiousness and all that
| Azrael3000 wrote:
| You should try freediving. 2 length in a 50m pool without
| weights and fins is way above average. But please take a
| course first, free diving can be very safe but only if
| done with a properly trained buddy.
| patall wrote:
| Or just join the foiling community and go 40% wave riding.
| 80+% if pure down winding. Entree is a little more
| expensive but you save on not having to travel exotic
| locations (or not at all).
| zemvpferreira wrote:
| Everyone else in the water will hate you though.
| Everyone. Even the sea janitors are above you in social
| standing.
| lukas099 wrote:
| Why?
| ChosenEnd wrote:
| Nothin personnel
| patall wrote:
| I think you have got your emotions mixed up, what you
| mean is called being jealous :)
|
| No, obviously, I understand the hate towards those
| foiling in a crowed point breaks. But, at least in my
| circle, most of it happens in places where nobody's
| surfing anyways. Downwinding is pretty much invisible.
| Surfing has fallen victim of its own success with
| overcrowded spots (people intentionally breaking each
| others surfboards, come on) and the necessary travelling
| isn't great for the planet either (nor is a carbon foil,
| obviously)
| S33V wrote:
| The one time I see surfing mentioned on HN and of course
| HN squeezes out the most nerdy take on surfing possible
| klik99 wrote:
| Literally why I'm here
| kapitanjakc wrote:
| From my personal experience, nothing scientific or proven here.
|
| I sit in a small office since last few years. A year or so ago I
| started to get less mentally active, as in things were going on
| in automatic mode.
|
| And I did not feel good in general, a friend who practices Yoga
| advised me to do breathing exercises.
|
| 15-30 mins of deep breaths in open space in early morning, after
| shower, before breakfast. Followed by 3-5 min of rapid breathing.
| And finishing with taking as much air as I can and holding it for
| 30 sec to a min and repeating it for 2-3 times.
|
| I do feel active after that, I wonder if it's related to these
| studies.
| crowdyriver wrote:
| Did you check the co2 levels on your office? that could be one
| reason.
| AStonesThrow wrote:
| For several years in a row, I was living every day suffering
| from severe sleep deprivation. I was not merely homeless, but
| living on the streets, and I became really intent on walking
| around all night, rather than trespass or sit down for a
| rest, in someplace where I didn't belong. Or I would sit in
| the IHOP, and drink 2 pots of coffee and stare, zombie-like,
| until the Sun rose. So I lost a lot of sleep and I dozed
| whenever possible, and not in a bed, but often seated at a
| table, with my arms folded, and my face buried in those
| folded arms, while others made chit-chat and the music played
| around me.
|
| Well, I'd get into an enclosed space with lots of people, and
| I'd begin to pass out. It happened a lot in church. We'd be
| singing and standing and sitting and kneeling, and I'd be
| just ready to conk out and go to sleep. And I would do crazy
| things like, lunging for the thermostat because it felt so
| warm and close in there. I thought everyone was feeling the
| same stale, stuffy air as I was. I don't know. It would also
| happen in the coffeehouses, but sleep was guaranteed to
| overcome me during liturgies.
|
| But I came to believe that it was a CO2 buildup sort of
| situation. With a lot of human bodies in a closed space, and
| we were all vocalizing for an hour or so, and it was winter
| so perhaps the heat was on, or the air conditioning was
| turned off. And so CO2 buildups were the most likely thing.
|
| Once I was housed, and able to catch up on sleep, it doesn't
| happen anymore. I did complain to my doctor and I asked him
| if I may have COPD. He insisted that I breathed better than
| he did. He brought in two young Medical Assistant ladies to
| do this breathing exercise so that he could prove there's
| nothing wrong with me. Of course we didn't get to that point
| of discussing sleep deprivation, because you can't medicate
| that. Well, a psychiatrist could try, with extra-drowsy meds.
| And they did try. I resented that.
| kragen wrote:
| This is really valuable information. Thank you.
| taraparo wrote:
| I encourage you and everyone else interested to attend a
| Holotropic Breathwork session to truly grasp the profound
| impact your breath can have on your mind. This is nothing like
| your regular five-minute yoga breathing exercise, boxed
| breathing, or even the Wim Hof breathing. It's a completely
| different level. These sessions typically last 3 to 5 hours and
| take place in a safe, supportive setting with a dedicated
| sitter and experienced facilitators.
|
| And please don't try this stuff alone at home.
| latchkey wrote:
| This feels like one of those cases where science is catching up
| with something that's been done for a long time already.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pranayama
|
| https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=Pranayama
| anshumankmr wrote:
| I rarely practised breathwork in my life but during my final year
| of high school I was basically locked in my house, and got a
| vitamin D deficiencey (quelle surprise) so I took up doing
| breathing meditation in a public park, and that really worked for
| me in a highly stressful period of time in my life, which got me
| some very good results, aced my exams, got into a decent college.
| I don't think I have applied myself as dedicated to anything as
| intensely as I did. I regret not making it a daily habit in my
| life, unlike gymming. Although I still sort of deep exhalations
| in highly stressful situations but thats about it. Also if you
| count breathing in and out during heavy lifts, that helps a lot
| too in my form, especially during squats.
| layman51 wrote:
| What kind of breathwork? Is it kind of the same as box
| breathing? That's breathing in for four seconds, holding it in
| for four, exhaling and pausing all for four seconds.
| darkerside wrote:
| Why not make it a daily habit now?
| 3abiton wrote:
| This reminds me of James Nestor book on breathing, I should give
| it another go. While the evidence in the article are not that
| clear, the book really helped with my sleep and if anything I
| believe controlled breathing plays a huge role in health.
| sergioisidoro wrote:
| Personal anecdote: I do freediving, so CO2 tolerance training is
| common, and I've done it on and off. Basically you do breath
| holds to train your body to get used to high leves of CO2.
|
| I've found that brief high C02 levels are very good for
| activation, and to get out of a lethargic state. I don't know if
| a mix of cortisol and vasoconstriction and dive reflex triggered
| by the CO2, but I feel like it's a tool I have on my toolbox
| whenever I need to so something difficult or that requires a lot
| of will power.
|
| It's not for everyone tho, because many people can't get past the
| initial urge to breathe, and would probably freak out with the
| first involuntary contraction.
| FollowingTheDao wrote:
| Is it healthy to get into a near death experience just to get
| something done?
|
| Why is it "bad" to be in a lethargic state?
|
| Have you ever asked yourself these questions?
| elric wrote:
| What makes you say that breath holding for diving is a "near
| death experience"? It's pretty safe from what I can see?
| jboggan wrote:
| I wouldn't characterize it as a near death experience but an
| activation of the mammalian dive reflex. It's a pretty
| profound physiological set of changes that most people have
| never experienced, oddly.
| samus wrote:
| You don't get near death experiences just by holding breath,
| not even close. You might eventually be able to make yourself
| pass out though, so never ever practice long breath hold
| under circumstances where a loss of consciousness would be a
| danger, e.g., while driving, close or in water, close to
| streets or high drops or stairs, etc.
|
| Lethargic states stop you from doing what you want to do and
| to manage your time effectively. Allocate time being in such
| states for resting or sleeping hours.
| Azrael3000 wrote:
| I also tend to use my freediving experience for the opposite,
| when I'm highly stressed I tend to do one or two short (full
| exhale) breath holds to calm down. This works amazingly quickly
| and let's me refocus. Note, this will probably not work for
| untrained individuals.
| gosub100 wrote:
| I'm in a bad spot because I love swimming but I can barely hold
| my breath for 20s.
| alwinaugustin wrote:
| Just asked ChatGPT to summarise it and it gives this. Just
| published it to share the link, and will delete in a day or two.
| https://alwinaugustin.medium.com/how-circular-breathwork-boo...
| contravariant wrote:
| I can't be bothered to read AI generated slop that long, but
| that typography is _deranged_.
| amelius wrote:
| Question: will sleeping in a badly ventilated room help with CO2
| tolerance, somehow?
| mppm wrote:
| Very unlikely. Here's a back of the envelope calculation: The
| human energy requirement per day is about 9MJ. This corresponds
| to about 500g sugar (or starch), which releases around 750g
| CO2. Metabolic activity is reduced at night, so 250g CO2 is the
| upper limit for a full night's sleep. At typical temperature
| and pressure, this is < 0.14 m^2 of CO2. Assuming a very small
| (20 m^3) and hermetically sealed bedroom, you'll end up with a
| concentration of 0.7%, or less. Serious physiological studies
| (with divers and submariners) show that CO2 has a measurable
| effect starting at about 1% concentration and only becomes
| pronounced at 3% or so. This is consistent with the fact that
| exhaled air contains about 4% CO2 during normal breathing and
| can go much higher (>10%) during breath holds. In summary,
| sleeping in a stuffy room might give you respiratory problems,
| but no improved CO2 tolerance.
| crsv wrote:
| Am I missing something? It looked like the findings were all done
| from surveying people instead of actually measuring anything
| objectively?
| LawrenceKerr wrote:
| Surveying people is pretty important in a study like this, and
| valid science.
|
| Regardless, if you read the paper, you'd learn that they did do
| objective measurements, namely etCO2 levels and bio-markers
| from saliva.
|
| Of note: "when etCO2 fell below approx. 20 mmHg, it was
| virtually guaranteed to trigger at least some (and often a
| strong) departure from ordinary waking consciousness. This
| effect is particularly intriguing because in non-breathwork-
| related circumstances, an etCO2 of 20 mmHg or less would be
| considered a sign of severe physiological malfunctions, e.g. of
| the heart or lungs"
|
| But anyone who tried breathwork, especially in group settings
| with accompanying music, knows such practices can lead to
| intense trance-like states.
| keepamovin wrote:
| At some point the reductive paradigm fails: you cannot reduce
| conscious experience to reproducible isolatable variables. A more
| wholistic approach is required and I believe Western science can
| eventually accommodate that.
|
| Advances in AI and big data may help that: a collection of
| seemingly disparate variables may define a space that correlates
| with qualia.
| aeblyve wrote:
| Worth noting that a decrease in end-tidal CO2 pressure (i.e.,
| decreased amount of Co2 in an exhalation) is not in itself a
| statement about the amount of Co2 in tissues. A rudimentary
| analysis might even say that lower Co2 as measured in exhalation
| implies that more Co2 is retained in the tissues.
|
| Bohr effect and others corroborate the idea that Co2 is not just
| a "waste gas" produced by respiration but has an important
| biological role in its own right.
|
| Ingestion of baking soda, which supplies Co2 to tissues, is so
| effective at countering the effects of lactic acid from muscle
| overexertion that its administration is banned in horse racing.
|
| It stands to reason that higher Co2 can protect against lactate
| throughout tissues, perhaps even including the brain, especially
| in a condition where the brain favors fermentation over
| respiration (as in cancer, per Warburg effect, and depending on
| who you ask, in mental illness/depression)
| reverendsteveii wrote:
| In the occult community altered states of consciousness are
| something we regularly pursue in order to affect consciousness on
| an ongoing basis after a return to baseline. The sort of
| breathwork talked about in this article (tummo/bellows breath)
| are big parts of a lot of people's practices, myself included. We
| also do physical ordeals, flow states, and psychoactive drugs in
| efforts to take manual control of our perceptions of things.
| Personally, I meditate for about 20 minutes, then lift heavy
| weights or do medium-distance high intensity cardio (20-30
| minutes of going as hard as I can) then smoke marijuana, then
| play hand drums and hyperventilate in an effort to induce a
| ritual mindset, then use mantras and sigils to try to create a
| mindset that's more conducive to my goals. I can't say
| empirically that it works, of course, but anecdotally before I
| started doing this I was a 30 year old obese, hopeless college
| drop-out pillhead living in my childhood bedroom and now I'm a 40
| year old married homeowner full stack engineer with 10 years off
| pills who can benchpress his dad and I've learned to play the
| banjo and the drums in the mean time. All of those good things
| I've listed came to me through tons of mundane effort, smart
| decisions and good luck but also at least correlated with me
| using the ritual structure I outlined above to choose them as
| goals to focus on and rewrite myself into the kind of person who
| picks goals, focuses on them and completes them.
| lr4444lr wrote:
| I don't understand: shouldn't hypocapnia or respiratory alkalosis
| in all forms lead to reports of altered states of consciousness
| if decreased CO2 saturation is believed to be the cause of this
| breathwork's effect?
| yosito wrote:
| I'm not sure about other forms of respiratory alkalosis, but I
| do know that it's quite common for people to claim that breath
| work leads to altered states of consciousness.
| sysrestartusr wrote:
| Is default a pre-altered state of consciousness?
|
| I would argue that at least a shitload of people don't get
| _enough_ air via breathing and that 's why they are in whatever
| state of consciousness they are in.
|
| Shitty posture, 'toxic' (compared to, again, default) air, water,
| soil, food and constantly being pounded by annoying stuff on the
| peripheral of perception disrupts our CNS.
|
| I believe we skipped a few important beats in our cognitive
| evolution because of that and a lot of people would be a lot
| smoother ... at least less pretentiously pre-modern-evolution
| "animalistic", or less obedient to and uncritical about
| liquidity-and-status-based hierarchies, and other stuff that
| obviously has a net-negative impact on pretty much everything ...
| ( lots of which has already been quantified ... multiple times
| over multiple decades )
|
| .. but peeps just laugh and call this world a gangsters paradise
| or something ...
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