[HN Gopher] DolphinGemma: How Google AI is helping decode dolphi...
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       DolphinGemma: How Google AI is helping decode dolphin communication
        
       Author : alphabetting
       Score  : 217 points
       Date   : 2025-04-14 13:12 UTC (9 hours ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (blog.google)
 (TXT) w3m dump (blog.google)
        
       | srean wrote:
       | Can a powerful model become a fantastic autocomplete for dolphins
       | ? Sure. Someday soon that's very likely to happen. But that alone
       | would tell us almost nothing of what dolphin dialogue means.
       | 
       | To understand their language we need shared experiences, shared
       | emotions, common internal worlds. Observation of dolphin-dolphin
       | interaction would help but to a limited degree.
       | 
       | It would help if the dolphins are also interested in teaching us.
       | Dolphins or we could say to the other '... that is how we
       | pronounce sea-cucumber'. Shared nouns would be the easiest.
       | 
       | The next level, a far harder level, would be to reach the stage
       | where we can say 'the emotion that you are feeling now, that we
       | call "anger"'.
       | 
       | We will no quite have the right word for "anxiety that I feel
       | when my baby's blood flow doesn't sound right in Doppler".
       | 
       | Teaching or learning 'ennui' and 'schadenfreude' would be a whole
       | lot harder.
       | 
       | This begs a question can one fully feel and understand an emotion
       | we do not have a word for ? Perhaps Wittgenstein has an answer.
       | 
       | Postscript: I seem to have triggered quite a few of you and that
       | has me surprised. I thought this would be neither controversial
       | nor unpopular. It's ironic in a way. If we can't understand each
       | other, understanding dolphin "speech" would be a tough hill to
       | climb.
        
         | ruthvik947 wrote:
         | Indeed! As Witt once said, "if a lion could speak, we would not
         | understand it." (https://iep.utm.edu/wittgens/#H5)
        
           | finnh wrote:
           | Is it common to abbreviate Wittgenstein to "Witt"? Don't
           | recall seeing/hearing that before, but it's been awhile since
           | undergrad.
        
         | weard_beard wrote:
         | I think you are describing more of an edge case than you might
         | think for a vertebrate, mammal, social, warm blooded, air
         | breathing, earth living, pack hunter.
        
           | srean wrote:
           | Yes there is a lot we have common, especially the social
           | part. But our worlds and primary senses are really very
           | different.
           | 
           | Even a limited success would gladden my heart.
        
         | charcircuit wrote:
         | >To understand their language we need shared experiences,
         | shared emotions, common internal worlds
         | 
         | Why? With modern AI there exists unsupervised learning for
         | translation where you don't have to explicitly make translation
         | pairs between the 2 languages. It seems possible to eventually
         | create a way to translate without having to have a teaching
         | process for individual words like you describe.
        
           | srean wrote:
           | Teach the meaning and understanding of 'chrome red' to a
           | chilf blind from birth.
        
             | charcircuit wrote:
             | This can easily be done by giving that prompt to chatgpt
             | and allowing the child to ask it follow up questions.
        
               | srean wrote:
               | That might only get to a point that there is an
               | understanding that something called "chrome red" exists.
               | But for a blind child who isn't exposed to the concept of
               | vision, let alone color. It's just a name and relations
               | with other names. That lacks semantics.
               | 
               | Without grounding in some form of experience one can
               | learn grammar and syntax but not understanding. "Chrome
               | red" is a whole lot easier to teach than say the concept
               | of "jealousy" when that's not part of a shared world of
               | experience.
               | 
               | It's possible to learn a dictionary without understanding
               | any of what those words mean. Dictionary just gives
               | relations among the dictionary words themselves. That's
               | it.
               | 
               | It takes a sensory or emotional experience to ground
               | those words for learning.
               | 
               | Nouns are easy because you can point and teach, that
               | there is a correspondence with the word 'apple' and the
               | physical object that you are experiencing now. Abstract
               | concepts emotions are much harder. There the need for
               | shared experience is much stronger.
               | 
               | There's quite a bit of recorded knowledge for these
               | things. Experiences of Hellen Keller. There's a story of
               | a deaf man who could use sign language, but had an
               | overwhelming and tearful experience in his thirties when
               | it finally clicked that the sign for a 'door' has a
               | correspondence for a door that his teacher was pointing
               | at. Till that point, signing was just some meaningless
               | ritualistic ceremony that needed to be mastered for
               | social acceptance.
        
               | charcircuit wrote:
               | I'm not sure what you are trying to argue. That it's
               | impossible to translate between blind and sighted people
               | because they don't "truley" experience color? That's
               | clearly not the case. Even with emotions different
               | languages independently came up with words for them and
               | we can still translate between those languages.
        
               | srean wrote:
               | I elaborated here
               | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43684124
               | 
               | > Even with emotions different languages independently
               | came up with words for them and we can still translate
               | between those languages.
               | 
               | Of course. That's a no-brainer that different human
               | languages have come up with names for experiences they
               | share.
               | 
               | The hard part is learning the correspondence between say
               | two nouns in different languages that mean the same
               | thing.
               | 
               | Its perfectly possible for an unsupervised ML to use the
               | French word 'rouge' in a French sentence but the notion
               | that 'rouge' corresponds to 'red' in English has to come
               | from some shared grounded experience/emotion.
               | 
               | The French word x word relationship graph has to get
               | connected to the English word x word relationship graph.
               | 
               | BTW for people born deaf and blind it's an enormous
               | challenge just to get to the point where the person
               | understand that things have names. For example for Hellen
               | Keller, it was a very non-trivial event when it finally
               | clicked that the wet sensation she was feeling had a
               | correspondence with what her teacher was writing on her
               | arm. They were lucky that wet was an experience that was
               | common between her and her teacher, lucky that Hellen
               | Keller could experience wetness. Someone or something has
               | to play the same role for dolphins and us. Just a corpus
               | will not suffice.
        
               | ht-syseng wrote:
               | The word is just a 'pointer' to the underlying shared
               | experience, so I don't think you could; the kid would
               | come away thinking red is the same thing as the feeling
               | of splinters or the warmth of a sunset, which isn't what
               | red is, those are just feelings maybe associated with
               | red. That said - I'm actually pretty confident we'll be
               | able to have basic "conversations" made of basic snippets
               | of information with dolphins and whales in my lifetime.
               | Maybe not complex grammatical structure we identify with,
               | but small stuff like: "I'm hungry". I'm not sure if
               | dolphins could understand "fish or octopus for dinner?",
               | because they might not have any idea of a logical 'OR',
               | and perhaps they might don't even differentiate between
               | fish/octopus.
               | 
               | We do share (presumably) experiences of hunger, pain,
               | happiness, the perception of gradations of light and
               | shape/form within them, some kind of dimensionally bound
               | spatial medium they exist in as an individual and are
               | moving through - though of course they might not conceive
               | of these as "dimensions" or "space", they would surely
               | have analogs for directional words - although given they
               | aren't constrained to live on top of a 2D surface, these
               | might not be "up", "down", "left", "right", but something
               | in the vein of "lightward" or "darkward" as the two main
               | directions, and then some complicated 3D rotational
               | coordinate system for modeling direction. Who knows,
               | maybe they even use quaternions!
        
               | srean wrote:
               | Very poetically put and absolutely agree.
               | 
               | For the subset of shared experiences and emotions this
               | should be possible, not only that, I feel that we must
               | try (as in, it's a moral/ ethical obligation).
               | 
               | Training an ML on dialogues alone will not be enough. One
               | would need to spend a lot of time to build up a wealth of
               | shared experiences, so that one can learn the
               | mapping/correspondence.
        
               | GeoAtreides wrote:
               | imagine thinking qualia can be described and
               | understood... with words! lol lmao
        
             | Teever wrote:
             | How do we explain things like plasma and UV to anyone?
        
         | Mystery-Machine wrote:
         | The fact that you cannot wrap your head around something
         | doesn't mean that it's not possible. I do not claim that it is
         | surely possible nor that it isn't. But it sure as hell looks
         | possible. You also probably don't have kids. For example: how
         | do you teach a child to speak? Or someone a new language? You
         | show them some objects and their pronunciation. The same with
         | the seagrass and/or a scarf. That's one way. Dolphins can also
         | see (divers with) some objects and name them. We can also guess
         | what they are saying from the sounds plus the actions they do.
         | That's probably how we got "seagrass" in the first place.
         | 
         | For all the word that they don't have in their language,
         | we/they can invent them. Just like we do all the time:
         | artificial intelligence, social network, skyscraper, surfboard,
         | tuxedo, black hole, whatever...
         | 
         | It might also be possible that dolphins' language uses the same
         | patterns as our language(s) and that an LLM that knows both can
         | manage to translate between the two.
         | 
         | I suggest a bit more optimistic look on the world, especially
         | on something that's pretty-much impossible to have any negative
         | consequences for humanity.
        
           | srean wrote:
           | Calm down. No need to be rude and condescending and throw
           | personal insults.
           | 
           | If you had read this part --
           | 
           | "But that _alone_ would tell us almost nothing of what
           | dolphin dialogue means.
           | 
           | To understand their language we need shared experiences,
           | shared emotions, common internal worlds. Observation of
           | dolphin-dolphin interaction would help but to a limited
           | degree."
           | 
           | it ought to have been clear that what I am arguing is a
           | corpus of dolphin communication fed to an LLM _alone_ will
           | not suffice. A lot of investments have to be made in this
           | part -- To understand their language we need shared
           | experiences, shared emotions, common internal worlds.
           | 
           | I am sure both you and me would be very happy the day we can
           | have some conversation with dolphins.
        
             | Mystery-Machine wrote:
             | That's exactly the argument here. You do not think this is
             | possible. I think it _might be_. You believe we cannot
             | understand their language because we don't have "shared
             | experiences" (etc). I believe we can. That's the
             | disagreement. AI can learn/predict/invent new things. It
             | already is inventing new materials, new protein structures,
             | etc. We don't need to understand the exact mechanism 100%
             | for it to be able to do it. Let's give it a shot.
             | 
             | There are tons of shared experiences and shared emotions.
             | It's not like there's some hidden organism that we
             | discovered are making noise from within the dark matter.
             | These are animals in the oceans. Plenty of shared
             | experiences and emotions. Dolphins have feelings. Anyway...
             | let's agree to disagree. I fully support this project and
             | am optimistic about its outcomes.
        
               | srean wrote:
               | > You do not think this is possible.
               | 
               | Not at all.
               | 
               | I believe _just_ throwing a corpus of dolphin-dolphin
               | vocalizations at an LLM will fall very short.
               | 
               | I quote myself again -- 'But that _alone_ would tell us
               | almost nothing of what dolphin dialogue means ".
               | 
               | Note the emphasis on the word _alone_.
               | 
               | What needs to happen is to build shared experiences,
               | perhaps with a pod and incorporate that into the ML
               | training process. If this succeeds this exercise of
               | building shared experience will do heavier lifting than
               | the LLM.
               | 
               | Had you spent less effort in coming up with insults and
               | used the leftover processing bandwidth to understand my
               | position it would have made for a nicer exchange. For
               | restoring civility to our conversation I indeed do not
               | hold high hopes.
        
       | sarreph wrote:
       | I'm pretty sure by the time we decode what they're saying it'll
       | be "so long, and thanks for all the fish"
        
         | nottorp wrote:
         | That's the good outcome.
         | 
         | The bad outcome is the "AI" will translate our hellos as an
         | insult, the dolphins will drop the masquerade, reveal
         | themselves as our superiors and pound us into dust once and
         | forever.
         | 
         | Picture the last surviving human surrounded by dolphins
         | floating in the air with frickin laser beams coming out of
         | their heads... all angrily asking "why did you say that about
         | our mother?".
         | 
         | And in the background, ChatGPT is saying "I apologize if my
         | previous response was not helpful".
        
       | nikolayasdf123 wrote:
       | so, did it work?... anyone knows what is the result of this work?
        
         | rideontime wrote:
         | The article says that they've only just begun deploying it, and
         | that it will merely be used to speed up the process of
         | recognizing patterns.
         | 
         | > WDP is beginning to deploy DolphinGemma this field season
         | with immediate potential benefits. By identifying recurring
         | sound patterns, clusters and reliable sequences, the model can
         | help researchers uncover hidden structures and potential
         | meanings within the dolphins' natural communication -- a task
         | previously requiring immense human effort. Eventually, these
         | patterns, augmented with synthetic sounds created by the
         | researchers to refer to objects with which the dolphins like to
         | play, may establish a shared vocabulary with the dolphins for
         | interactive communication.
        
       | xena wrote:
       | This looks like a marine biologist desperately wanted to keep
       | their job in spite of the "nothing that's not AI" mandate so they
       | made up some bullshit.
        
         | vlovich123 wrote:
         | They've been working on decoding dolphin sounds for a long time
         | - Thad was telling me about this project in 2015 and it had
         | been ongoing for a while. One challenge is doing this realtime
         | is extremely difficult because of the frequency the dolphin
         | speech occurs in. And they want to do this realtime which adds
         | to the difficulty level. The other challenge on the AI side is
         | that traditional AI is done using supervised learning whereas
         | dolphin speech would require unsupervised learning. It would be
         | interesting to learn more about how Gemma is helping here.
        
         | Philpax wrote:
         | That is a surprisingly cynical take; the marine biologists in
         | question seemed pretty enthusiastic in the video!
        
           | dogleash wrote:
           | I'm not saying this is the case here, but every time I've
           | been in internal or promotional videos related to my work,
           | I've been performing for a camera. I'm not playing a theater
           | character, but it's also not what you'd get if you dropped by
           | my desk and asked me the same questions. Calling it acting
           | might seem strong. But it's not not acting. So it's acting.
        
             | refulgentis wrote:
             | Does the general principle "we're always performing, in a
             | particular costume, for our audience" help confirm the
             | excited marine biologist desperately wanted to keep their
             | job in spite of a "nothing that's not AI" mandate, so they
             | made up some bullshit?
             | 
             | Separately, could invoking it anytime someone appears
             | excited be described as distrustful of human sincerity or
             | integrity?
             | 
             | After working through these exercises, my answers are
             | no/yes, which leaves me having to agree its clearly
             | cynical. (because "define:cynical" returns "distrustful of
             | human sincerity or integrity")
        
       | nightfly wrote:
       | "Matthews... we're getting another one of those strange 'aw blah
       | es span yol' sounds."
        
       | ZeroCool2u wrote:
       | Wow, there's a lot of cynicism in this thread, even for HN.
       | 
       | Regardless of whether or not it works perfectly, surely we can
       | all relate to the childhood desire to 'speak' to animals at one
       | point or another?
       | 
       | You can call it a waste of resources or someones desperate
       | attempt at keeping their job if you want, but these are marine
       | biologists. I imagine cross species communication would be a
       | major achievement and seems like a worthwhile endeavor to me.
        
         | davedigerati wrote:
         | I for one am simply happy to see us trying to apply LLMs to
         | something other than replacing call centers... humankind SHOULD
         | be exploring and learning sometimes even when there isn't an
         | ROI.
        
         | morkalork wrote:
         | I'd be less cynnical if researchers hadn't announced the same
         | thing like 10 years ago
         | 
         | https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/08/science/dolphins-machine-...
        
           | canyon289 wrote:
           | Ah this is different. The Nytimes article is about
           | identifying/classifying dolphins from audio. This new model
           | is about communicating with dolphins from generated audio.
           | 
           | The difference between recognizing someone from hearing them,
           | and actually talking to them!
        
         | garciasn wrote:
         | Gemini supposedly allows for conversational speech w/your data.
         | Have you tried it? We have; it's laughably bad and can't get
         | the most basic stuff right from a well-crafted datamart.
         | 
         | If it can't do the most basic stuff, please explain to be how
         | in the fuck it is going to understand dolphin language and why
         | would should believe its results anyway?
        
           | groby_b wrote:
           | "We couldn't make something work, so nobody can make anything
           | work" is also a claim you can make, yes.
           | 
           | It's rather unsound reasoning, but you certainly can.
        
             | garciasn wrote:
             | Oh I can make it work; but it's definitely not as easy as
             | they claim for business users and that was my point.
        
         | janalsncm wrote:
         | Don't understand the cynicism either. Is this not way cooler
         | than the latest pre-revenue series F marketing copy slop bot
         | startup?
         | 
         | To me this task looks less like next token prediction language
         | modeling and more like translating a single "word" at a time
         | into English. It's a pretty tractable problem. The harder parts
         | probably come from all the messiness of hearing and playing
         | sounds underwater.
         | 
         | I would imagine adapting to new vocab would be pretty clunky in
         | an LLM based system. It would be interesting if it were able to
         | add new words in real time.
        
         | amarant wrote:
         | It's trendy to hate Google, and even more trendy to hate
         | anything AI.
         | 
         | The cynicism on display here is little more than virtue
         | signalling and/or upvote farming.
         | 
         | Sad to see such thoughtless behaviour has reached even this
         | bastion of reason.
        
           | lotyrin wrote:
           | "virtue signalling" really is one of those words/turns of
           | phrase that needs to be put on a high shelf.
           | 
           | Plenty of people genuinely dislike the concentration of
           | economic and computing power that big tech represents. Them
           | expressing this is not "virtue signaling", it is an authentic
           | moral position they hold.
           | 
           | Plenty of people genuinely dislike the disregard for labor
           | and intellectual property rights that anything Gen AI
           | represents. Again, an authentic moral position.
           | 
           | "Virtue signaling" is for example, when a corporate entity
           | doesn't authentically support diversity through any kind of
           | consequential action but does make sure to sponsor the local
           | pride event (in exchange for their logo being everywhere) and
           | swaps their social media logos to rainbow versions.
        
             | vlovich123 wrote:
             | I believe it meets the definition of virtue signaling to
             | express a position you don't do anything to advocate -
             | which is the vast majority of opinions expressed on the
             | Internet. It can be a sincerely held belief but if you're
             | not taking action around it I don't see any difference from
             | the corporate example you gave.
        
               | nfw2 wrote:
               | Your statement is virtue signaling according to its own
               | definition unless you've taken action to prevent people
               | complaining about Google.
        
             | amarant wrote:
             | None of those points are even remotely relevant in this
             | case, unless you're worried about dolphin-English
             | translators losing their livelihood?
             | 
             | Mindlessly parroting such talking points where they're not
             | applicable is also a form of virtue-signalling.
             | 
             | And the comments in this thread are predominantly such
             | virtue signalling nonsense.
        
           | j45 wrote:
           | Too often it's just insecurity masking itself as posturing.
        
         | Nifty3929 wrote:
         | I'm as or more cynical than the next guy - but it seems to me
         | that being able to communicate with animals has high utility
         | for humans. Partly from an emotional or companionship
         | perspective as we've been doing with dogs for a long time, but
         | maybe even on purely utilitarian grounds.
         | 
         | If we want to know something about what's going on in the
         | ocean, or high on a mountain or in the sky or whatever - what
         | if we can just ask some animals about it? What about for things
         | that animals can naturally perceive that humans have trouble
         | with - certain wavelengths of light or magnetic fields for
         | example? How about being able to recruit animals to do specific
         | tasks that they are better suited for? Seems like a win for us,
         | and maybe a win for them as well.
         | 
         | Not sure what else, but history suggests that the more people
         | have been able to communicate with each other, the better the
         | outcomes. I assume this holds true more broadly as well.
        
           | doublerabbit wrote:
           | I am all for the Disney utopian fantasy of us living with
           | animals.
           | 
           | However if universal communication was to be made. Don't you
           | think that animals are going to be pretty pissed to discover
           | what we have done with their kingdom?
           | 
           | "Hi Mr Dolphin, how's the sea today?" "Wet and a plastic
           | bottle cap got lodged in my blowhole last night..."
        
             | lesuorac wrote:
             | I suspect Dolphins can tell people apart and will recognize
             | you as not the guy that threw the bottle cap akin to all
             | those stories about crows.
             | 
             | Certainly will be interesting to see how much we can bribe
             | Dolphins to do once we have faster communication methods.
        
               | 9dev wrote:
               | So you think you're not responsible for the fucked-up
               | oceans because you let other people throw your trash into
               | the sea for you, and the organically farmed salmon you
               | eat surely wasn't produced under atrocious conditions?
        
             | Nifty3929 wrote:
             | I'm not suggesting a Disney utopian fantasy. I'm just
             | suggesting that in a very pragmatic way, we can ask them
             | questions and get meaningful answers, or ask them to do
             | things for us.
             | 
             | What's going on down the the sea over there? Would you mind
             | pulling that thing from here to there?
             | 
             | Or whatever - I don't know what we'll figure out to do, but
             | certainly something.
             | 
             | As far as them being mad at us, I doubt they will be, but
             | I'd be interested to get their perspective - if they have
             | one.
             | 
             | I do not believe we can expect anything resembling a human
             | level of intelligence to be discovered.
        
           | k7sune wrote:
           | I was just reading how fishing industry's longlines have
           | caught many dolphins and other bycatches. It would be great
           | to be able to give them warnings, or even better, to ask them
           | to keep other big animals away from the longlines.
        
             | gazebo64 wrote:
             | I know this comment is totally innocent but it does kind of
             | bum me out to be at a point in time where instead of
             | addressing our impact on the environment directly, we're
             | trying to make computers that can talk to dolphins so we
             | can tell them to stay out of the way lol
        
               | kuhewa wrote:
               | You don't tend to hear about it and not that there isn't
               | still progress to be made, but there has been tonnes of
               | progress on fisheries interactions with protected bycatch
               | species. For ex the infamous dolphin problem in the
               | eastern tropical Pacific purse seine tuna fishery is down
               | 99.8% from its peak to the point populations are
               | recovering, despite the fishery intentionally setting on
               | dolphin schools to catch > 150,000 t of yellowfin tuna
               | per year.
               | 
               | Pelagic gillnets are probably the gear that still have
               | the most issues with dolphin bycatch, and acoustic
               | pingers that play a loud ultrasonic tone when they detect
               | an echolocation click are already used to reduce
               | interactions in some fisheries.
        
             | theyinwhy wrote:
             | Dear Mr Dolphin, can you please tell the large sharks to
             | not go that way?
             | 
             | - No, f... the sharks!
        
             | 9dev wrote:
             | Or, like, we could stop ravaging the oceans by industrial
             | fishing, stop pretending magical technology will save the
             | day, and try to limit our resource consumption to
             | sustainable levels?
             | 
             | Humanity's relationship with animals is so schizophrenic.
             | On the one hand, _let's try to learn how to talk to cute
             | dolphins and chat with them what it's like to swim!_ , and
             | on the other, _well yeah that steak on my table may have
             | once lead a subjective experience before it was
             | slaughtered, and mass-farming it wrecks the ecosystem I
             | depend on to live, but gosh it's so tasty, I can't give
             | that up!_
        
         | lukev wrote:
         | It's not even about the communication! Just having more insight
         | into the brains and communication of other mammals has a ton of
         | scientific value in its own right.
         | 
         | Sometimes it's good just to know things. If we needed to find a
         | practical justification for everything before we started
         | exploring it, we'd still be animals.
        
         | j45 wrote:
         | The ability to understanding bee's communication was made
         | possible, so I'm not sure why dolphins would seem harder?
        
       | palashkulsh wrote:
       | Was I the only one who thought it was related to dolphin
       | uncensored models over gemma
        
       | neuroelectron wrote:
       | SeaQuest anyone? I still have the first comic.
        
         | exe34 wrote:
         | Darwin likes!
        
       | xnx wrote:
       | Cool to see the use of consumer phones as part of the setup.
       | Having a suite of powerful sensors, processing, display, and
       | battery in a single, compact, sealed package must be immensely
       | useful for science.
        
       | canyon289 wrote:
       | I work at Google on the Gemma team, and while not on the core
       | team for this model, participated a bit on this project.
       | 
       | I personally was happy to see this project get built. The dolphin
       | researchers have been doing great science for years, from the
       | computational/mathematics side it was quite neat see how that was
       | combined with the Gemma models.
        
         | moffkalast wrote:
         | It's great that dolphins are getting audio decoders in language
         | models first, does the Gemma team intend to roll that out for
         | human speech at some point eventually too?
        
       | floridianfisher wrote:
       | The application of modern LLM technology to animal communication
       | is exciting.
        
       | rcarmo wrote:
       | The only output I'll believe from this is "So long, and thanks
       | for all the fish!"
        
         | rcarmo wrote:
         | I guess Douglas Adams isn't something a lot of people read
         | these days.
        
       | GuinansEyebrows wrote:
       | "How Google AI is helping further the warming of our planet's
       | oceans, further diminishing wild dolphin habitats worldwide"
        
       | Imnimo wrote:
       | This sounds very cool at a conceptual level, but the article left
       | me in the dark about what they're actually doing with
       | DolphinGemma. The closest to an answer is:
       | 
       | >By identifying recurring sound patterns, clusters and reliable
       | sequences, the model can help researchers uncover hidden
       | structures and potential meanings within the dolphins' natural
       | communication -- a task previously requiring immense human
       | effort.
       | 
       | But this doesn't really tell me anything. What does it mean to
       | "help researchers uncover" this stuff? What is the model actually
       | _doing_?
        
         | bjt wrote:
         | As far as I can tell, it hasn't actually done anything yet.
         | 
         | The article reads like the press releases you see from academic
         | departments, where an earth shattering breakthrough is juuuuust
         | around the corner. In every single department, of every single
         | university.
         | 
         | It's more PR fluff than substance.
        
       | lukev wrote:
       | Tangential, but this brings up a really interesting question for
       | me.
       | 
       | LLMs are multi-lingual without really trying assuming the
       | languages in question are sufficiently well-represented in their
       | training corpus.
       | 
       | I presume their ability to translate comes from the fact that
       | there are lots of human-translated passages in their corpus; the
       | same work in multiple languages, which lets them figure out the
       | necessary mappings between semantic points (words.)
       | 
       | But I wonder about the translation capability of a model trained
       | on multiple languages but with completely disjoint documents (no
       | documents that were translations of another, no dictionaries,
       | etc).
       | 
       | Could the emerging latent "concept space" of two completely
       | different human languages be similar enough that the model could
       | translate well, even without ever seeing examples of how a
       | multilingual human would do a translation?
       | 
       | I don't have a strong intuition here but it seems plausible. And
       | if so, that's remarkable because that's basically a science-
       | fiction babelfish or universal translator.
        
         | beernet wrote:
         | My hunch is it would work somewhat, but poorly.
         | 
         | Languages encode similar human experiences, so their conceptual
         | spaces probably have natural alignments even without
         | translation examples. Words for common objects or emotions
         | might cluster similarly.
         | 
         | But without seeing actual translations, a model would miss
         | nuances, idioms, and how languages carve up meaning
         | differently. It might grasp that "dog" and "perro" relate to
         | similar concepts without knowing they're direct translations.
        
           | lukev wrote:
           | To agree and extend, that's actually how human language works
           | too. The cultural connotations of "dog" in english might be
           | quite different from "perro".
           | 
           | And it gets even more complex because the connotations of
           | "dog" in the USA in 2025 are unquestionably different from
           | "dog" in England in 1599. I can only assume these
           | distinctions also hold across languages. They're not a direct
           | translation.
           | 
           | Let alone _extreme_ cultural specificities... To follow the
           | same example, how would one define  "doge" now?
        
       | meindnoch wrote:
       | If only John C. Lilly was alive...
        
       | zoogeny wrote:
       | Not directly related, but one of those stories that is so bizarre
       | you almost can't believe it isn't made up.
       | 
       | There was a NASA funded attempt to communicate with Dolphins.
       | This eccentric scientist created a house that was half water (a
       | series of connected pools) and half dry spaces. A woman named
       | Margaret Howe Lovatt lived full-time with the Dolphins attempting
       | to learn a shared language between them.
       | 
       | Things went completely off the rails in many, many ways. The lead
       | scientist became obsessed with LSD and built an isolation chamber
       | above the house. This was like the sensory deprivation tanks you
       | get now (often called float tanks). He would take LSD and place
       | himself in the tank and believed he was psychically communicating
       | with the Dolphins.
       | 
       | 1. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jun/08/the-
       | dolp...
        
         | srean wrote:
         | Know the story. Such a tragic end.
        
         | maebert wrote:
         | arguably the best episode of Drunken history has duncan trussel
         | retelling this story:
         | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7ruBotHWUs
         | 
         | Paraphrasing carl sagan: "You don't go to Japan and kidnap a
         | Japanese man start j _king him off, give him f_ ing acid, and
         | then ask him to learn English!"
        
       | oulipo wrote:
       | My secret wish is that once they decode the language, they hear
       | the dolphin say to themselves: look, it's again those idiot
       | humans trying to bother us, why can't they just live happily like
       | we do?
       | 
       | And then the world will suddenly understand...
        
       | summerlight wrote:
       | I wonder what's the status quo on the non-LLM side; are we able
       | to manually decode sound patterns to recognize dolphin's
       | communication to some degree? If that's the case, I guess this
       | may have a chance.
        
       | rambambram wrote:
       | Ooh wow, dolphins.
       | 
       | Dolphins are cool animals. Google AI decodes dolphins. Google AI
       | is cool.
        
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