[HN Gopher] Germany creates 'super-high-tech ministry' for resea...
___________________________________________________________________
Germany creates 'super-high-tech ministry' for research,
technology, aerospace
Author : pmags
Score : 119 points
Date : 2025-04-11 20:16 UTC (2 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.science.org)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.science.org)
| johndoe0815 wrote:
| And it will probably be headed by one of the most incompetent and
| corrupt politicians they were able to find. Disgusting.
| pmags wrote:
| Evidence? Citations? Suggested reading?
| bell-cot wrote:
| > The agreement stipulates that the CSU will be in charge of
| the "super-high-tech ministry," as party leader Markus Soder
| called it in a press conference this week. The CSU has not
| proposed a minister yet, but it's widely expected that
| Dorothee Bar, who was in charge of "digital infrastructure"
| in previous governments under former Chancellor Angela
| Merkel, will get the nod.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothee_B%C3%A4r
|
| Sounds like her only non-political experience is working as a
| journalist.
|
| It's arguable that the "corrupt" part was scrubbed off
| Wikipedia. But her credentials to lead a research /
| technology / aerospace ministry certainly sound
| underwhelming.
| _dain_ wrote:
| _> who was in charge of "digital infrastructure" in
| previous governments_
|
| germany's digital infrastructure is a global laughing
| stock, this doesn't bode well.
| johannes1234321 wrote:
| That's more a mistranslation of the role.
|
| Digital infrastructure was part of traffic ministry.
|
| Her role was coordinating the government's mostly
| internal digital strategy. Thus reviewing new bills,
| looking at processes inside the administration etc. most
| of the work outside the public eye.
| DeepSeaTortoise wrote:
| You're claiming this, but average German internet speed
| has but recently surpassed Latvia's, easily beats
| Paraguay and the Philippines and is closing in on
| Montenegro and Barbados.
|
| The recent rapid improvements even diminished Romania's
| lead to less than 250%.
|
| Of course this is only up to the Telekom speedtest
| server, beyond that nearly all of Germany's 50-100Tbps
| get funneled through 362Gbps of interconnections onto the
| open internet.
| johndoe0815 wrote:
| German only, sorry. Both are reputable news outlets (though
| the Spiegel has gone down quite a bit in recent years
| IMHO).
|
| https://www.zeit.de/politik/deutschland/2013-04/baer-csu-
| geh... https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/csu-
| politikerin-d...
|
| She hired her future husband as an employee until
| immediately before their wedding. This position was paid by
| the federal German parliament, i.e. the taxpayer. It's
| illegal to hire a relative in such a position.
| pmags wrote:
| Thanks. Having read the (auto-translated) article in Der
| Spiegel, I agree that Bar's prior behavior suggests
| nepotism.
| chopin wrote:
| It's CSU, of course it is.
|
| Not that other parties are better...
| johannes1234321 wrote:
| I don't think grandparent's characterization matches. Typical
| career oriented "conservative" politician.
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorothee_B%C3%A4r
| ndr42 wrote:
| The CSU has a history of putting people in charge that do not
| benefit germany but bavaria (the only part of germany where
| the party CSU is active), e.g. Andreas Scheuer [1][2].
|
| Notable recent examples of corruption are the Maskenaffare
| [4] or Julia Klockner and Nestle ("Julia Klockner and Nestle
| show how the greasy closeness between politics and business
| can go too far" [5]).
|
| [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andreas_Scheuer: "Scheuer's
| ministry is said to have broken budgetary and public
| procurement law when concluding the multi-billion dollar
| contracts with the operators and "deliberately deceived" the
| Bundestag about the real costs of the car toll."
|
| [2] Soder (party leader of CSU) said about Scheuer: "I don't
| know not many ministers that bring so much money to bavaria
| as Andreas Scheuer" [3]
|
| [3] German: "Bei allem, was der ein oder andere kritisiert an
| dem Andi Scheuer: Ich kenne wenige Minister, die so viel Geld
| nach Bayern holen, wie der Andi Scheuer. Auch das muss man
| einfach mal in der Bilanz ehrlicherweise bitte nach draussen
| sagen."
|
| [4] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maskenaffare
|
| 5] https://www.spiegel.de/politik/julia-kloeckner-und-nestle-
| ze...
| j-krieger wrote:
| This ministry will not be lead by any of these people.
| Their replacement isn't that much better competency wise,
| but there is no corruption case yet.
|
| Your source 3 is not saying what you think it does. State
| government can apply for federal funding. Soder and his ilk
| have mastered this. There is nothing corrupt here.
| ndr42 wrote:
| I read a commemt in this discussion that Dorothee Bar has
| a case of corruption where she was employing her husband.
|
| ,,Source 3": Well, if you are a minister for
| infrastructure in germany it is not part of our job
| description to bring money to bavaria. Maybe my
| definition of corruption is of but the minister has some
| saying in how to use its funds and if your home state
| benefits more than other parts of germany... I would call
| this a form of corruption
| renewiltord wrote:
| Nothing surprising about Germany excelling at its strongest
| fields: creating ministries.
|
| Accretive policy is strong there and in their Anglo-Saxon
| descendants.
| FirmwareBurner wrote:
| Excelling at creating paperwork... except now digitally.
| AUTOSAR is may favorite German software innovation. /s
|
| That's the curse in Europe. Every European country has it's own
| ministry of digital innovation who's role is the grift of
| allocating taxpayer money to the right politically connected
| pockets while pretending to do innovation. Case in point,
| German fiber optic infrastructure is still lightyears behind
| Romania despite much higher costs. Means, somebody in Germany
| is making good money form that, even if there's nothing to show
| for.
|
| Meanwhile the actuality innovative companies in Europe get real
| VC money from the US, then get incorporated in the US and
| become American companies, then EU has the audacity to complain
| about lacking tech sovereignty.
| tommica wrote:
| Yep, had a coworker who was looking for financing in a EU
| country, but very few investor options were available, and
| mostly for a low amount of money, only enough for a few
| months. He had to go to UK to find people with deep enough
| pockets.
| WorkerBee28474 wrote:
| You can replace 'Europe' with 'Canada' and everything said
| here will still be true.
| noworriesnate wrote:
| On the flip side we Anglo-Saxons (and Germany's descendants in
| general) also invented a lot of cool stuff: airplanes, trains,
| cars, tractors, spacecraft, even hot air balloons!
| FirmwareBurner wrote:
| The Greeks and Romans probably invented even more useful
| stuff of modern civilization, the problem is past glory
| doesn't pay present day bills, unless you're running a
| museum.
| renewiltord wrote:
| Without a doubt not the only characteristic. Simply a
| characteristic of these cultures today. e.g. obsession with
| environment to the degree of actively harming it (opposing
| nuclear, wind, solar, and geothermal; and dense housing) is
| primarily an Anglophone concern specifically UK/US/Aus. And
| those countries are collectively responsible for a lot of
| innovation.
|
| Seems to be a truth: inventiveness moving to moribund navel-
| gazing.
| submeta wrote:
| Many German companies want ,,Digitalisierung", workflow
| automation, process improvements, they want to use AI, LLMs, but
| when it comes to implementing all of that, they are drowning in
| bureaucracy.
|
| What Germans can do is create layers of bureaucracy.
| hobofan wrote:
| Yeah, I'm sure a thousand lovely Horizon 2040 funded research
| projects that result in throwaway academic solutions to hyper-
| specific industry issues where the first MVP is shown after 5
| years will come out of this.
| nextos wrote:
| Not even throwaway. They will result in reports and keynote
| presentations, but nothing truly functional. The EU doesn't
| understand how to structure incentives to make things work
| and avoid rent-seekers and grifters. Source, I've been part
| of some large EU consortia. Never again.
| markus_zhang wrote:
| Reminds me of a quote from "Yes minister" in which it says
| one commissioner pays a farmer a lot of money to produce
| and another to remove the surplus, plus a lot of paper
| pushing in the middle.
| thinkindie wrote:
| LOL - I can second that. There are a lot of memes about nothing
| screams more "Digitalisierung!" than having to send papers via
| fax.
|
| Or having to carry cash coz a lot of places don't even give you
| the option to pay by card (even though this seems to come to an
| end, hello 2025!)
| submeta wrote:
| Random German company: You open your intranet, manually
| search through hundreds of (pdf!) application-forms (because
| search is not implemented), downlod the right form, print
| it(!), fill the form, sign it, scan the paper, send it to the
| ticket system. That's what they call ,,Digitalisierung",
| because previously they had to send the printed paper-form to
| the helpdesk team.
| calmoo wrote:
| I recently signed up for a simple prepaid phone plan in
| Germany (I have lived here for 2 years already, fully
| registered etc). I had to go through the full KYC process,
| _after_ waiting over a week for a physical SIM card to be
| sent by post to me. After this, I wanted an eSIM (this was
| my original goal but this was not possible on initial
| signup).
|
| I had to contact customer support to send me one... by
| post. They only activate and send eSIMs by mail. This will
| take another week.
| bcye wrote:
| How recently? Nowadays there are a bunch of "app eSIM"
| companies competing in Germany that offer to get you an
| eSIM by just installing an app, KYC and credit card in 5
| min
| calmoo wrote:
| A few days ago - I had some strict requirements of
| extremely low monthly cost (I only need it for sending
| and receiving SMS and for signing up for certain german
| services that require a German number) - so I want with
| O2 Prepaid. There are a lot of instant sign up eSIMs that
| are data only, which is not what I'm looking for.
|
| I would be surprised if you're talking about an eSIM
| service that give you a phone number.
| thinkindie wrote:
| luckily I haven't been working with such companies, I have
| had enough of my dose of Digitalisierung by interacting
| with public offices. But at least I can communicate with
| the Finanzamt via email, after signing a document where I
| made clear I understand that emails are not a safe
| communication tool (while random non-certified letters are,
| apparently).
| rrr_oh_man wrote:
| The problem is not the bureaucracy.
|
| Nobody's stopping a local mid-market manufacturer from
| automating workflows. Or hindering a utility company from
| offering a better service process.
|
| The problem is corporate leadership.
|
| German companies tend to be run by people who are inflexible,
| uninspired, and cheap. Maybe it's in the culture. Compare this
| to Austria, where there's a cultural flair for the dramatic
| (and therefore an eagerness to stand out, even if it's weird)
| or Switzerland where enterprises, public or private, are not
| afraid to place big bets.
| calmoo wrote:
| Both can be true, and what you described is, in my opinion,
| one of the primary causes of insane bureaucracy in Germany.
| This inflexible mindset is what causes the _relentless_
| enforcement of bureaucracy and procedures in Germany, there
| is very little leeway here in terms of bending the rules,
| making exceptions, turning a blind eye. This cultural
| inflexibility, traditionalism and risk-aversion all ties
| together into a paperwork and red-tape nigthmare.
| ost-ing wrote:
| Sums it up pretty well
| ahartmetz wrote:
| The main problem that I see in leadership is lack of
| understanding and respect for software - "I don't understand
| it so how hard can it be?". Seems to be especially prevalent
| at German car companies where, apparently, mechanical
| engineering is still boss. (I'd be fine with a car with very
| little software, but that is not what they are trying to
| build...)
| Casteil wrote:
| >The problem is not the bureaucracy.
|
| I'm no expert by any means, but have you ever actually worked
| with Germans?
|
| The existence of Betriebsrate (Workers' Councils, as
| implemented in Germany), while not necessarily 'bad', comes
| with a mountain of bureaucracy...
| geff82 wrote:
| ... yeah, never give rights to workers! Back to the middle
| ages again!
|
| Betriebsrate are actually a really sane measure once you
| think about it. And the more intelligent managers take them
| as an asset.
| Casteil wrote:
| Did you completely miss the "while not necessarily 'bad'"
| part of my post?
| mk89 wrote:
| Not the OP, but I don't understand what your original
| comment was trying to convey.
|
| You took in my opinion literally the worst example you
| could. Unions are by definition bureaucratic because they
| need to be...
| mhitza wrote:
| > Compare this to Austria, where there's a cultural flair for
| the dramatic (and therefore an eagerness to stand out, even
| if it's weird) or Switzerland where enterprises, public or
| private, are not afraid to place big bets.
|
| Can you call out with some examples for those of us
| unfamiliar with those 'big bets'?
| bobthepanda wrote:
| One very big bet I would say would be the NRLA:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NRLA
|
| Switzerland sits between Germany, Italy, and France, and
| was getting choked by road traffic, so voters have approved
| the largest tunnels in the world to get goods around and
| through Switzerland without using roads.
| j-krieger wrote:
| > The problem is not the bureaucracy
|
| The problem is _definitely_ bureaucracy. Any German founder
| will agree with this.
| odiroot wrote:
| Waiting eagerly for the first contracts to land at SAP/T-Mobile.
| coolgoose wrote:
| No fax ? :P
| fxtentacle wrote:
| The upside is that this will actually provide lots of research
| funding to small companies. Think of it like the seed round from
| a VC, but instead of investing into new companies, they try to
| strategically invest into existing companies to boost future tax
| revenue.
|
| It'll probably be very German, meaning overly bureaucratic. But
| the basic idea of financing R&D in small companies to grow them
| more competitive seems legit to me.
|
| As an example of what was funded by similar German government
| grants, you can look at voize, which is (by now) also a YC
| company: https://en.voize.de/uber-uns
|
| EDIT: Here's some German info on the 1.98 mio EUR research grant
| from early 2022 (meaning it was awarded shortly before they
| joined the W22 YC batch): https://www.interaktive-
| technologien.de/projekte/pysa
| foobarian wrote:
| Didn't we get MP3s this way? Or is that a slightly different
| pathway
| fxtentacle wrote:
| Fraunhofer is (by now) only financed 30% through tax money
| and 70% comes from the royalties on their past developments
| like MP3 and H264 and H265 and MPEG-H.
|
| Anyway, Fraunhofer gets recurring tax funding. What voize got
| is a one-off research grant to a group of companies:
|
| - voize
|
| - Charite - Universitatsmedizin Berlin (a medical university)
|
| - Deutsches Forschungszentrum fur Kunstliche Intelligenz
| GmbH, Berlin (a government AI research lab)
|
| - Connext Communication GmbH, Paderborn (a tech company)
|
| - Kleeblatt Pflegeheime gGmbH, Ludwigsburg (a retirement
| home, i.e. potential end user)
|
| - Pflegewohnhaus am Waldkrankenhaus gGmbH, Berlin (another
| retirement home)
|
| For this grant type, it's quite common that you pay the
| inventors, some assistant companies, some researchers, and
| some end users a lump sum to force them all to work together
| on commercializing the invention.
| w-m wrote:
| That's not quite right for Fraunhofer: The financing model
| is also heavily dependent on research grants. The base
| funding is indeed around 30%. But another 40% are from
| publicly funded research projects. The last 30% are from
| research contracted by industry. In 2023, license fee
| revenue was EUR157M / EUR2991M, so roughly 5% of total
| contract research volume.
|
| https://www.fraunhofer.de/en/about-fraunhofer/profile-
| struct...
| j-krieger wrote:
| Applying for a grant is normally difficult. In Germany, it's
| outright hellish. I hope I will be pleasantly surprised.
| franze wrote:
| the good thing now with AI you can write all those pages of
| bullshit nobody reads bit you will accountable to if things
| dont work out
| fxtentacle wrote:
| It's boring but otherwise harmless. You skim through 20 pages
| of legalese and fill out the blanks. Your local goverment
| office has an advisor who will check the forms together with
| you before you submit them. (I applied for and received a De-
| Minimis grant.) Plus for the larger grant types, there are
| advisory companies that work on commission.
| timmg wrote:
| Finally: a good use for LLMs ;)
| FirmwareBurner wrote:
| Not if they ban, errr I mean regulate them ;)
| notorandit wrote:
| They need to call Mrs. Merkel back.
| kazinator wrote:
| Cool, scientists persecuted in the USA can now free to Germany.
| Kind of like Einstein & Co, but exact opposite direction.
| sunshine-o wrote:
| > A new ministry for research, technology, and aerospace will be
| formed, and the education portfolio will be taken over by the
| current ministry for family, seniors, women, and youth.
|
| So I guess Germany is one of those countries which reorganize
| their government on a brainstorming board by just throwing up
| concepts. And then it takes years for all the bureaucracy to move
| around and get back to work.
|
| > Germany needs a new alignment of defense policy and research
| policy, but "we do not yet know how to do this,"
|
| I learned in middle school that you were once really good at it.
| There is also a consensus it got quickly out of control and
| destroyed Europe.
|
| All of this sound more like an Onion or Babylon Bee piece...
| anigbrowl wrote:
| _Black_13 appears to be shadowbanned so I 'm reproducing their
| comment here:_
|
| black_13 11 minutes ago [dead] | parent | context | unvouch |
| favorite | on: Germany creates 'super-high-tech ministry' for
| res...
|
| The cynicism in these comments is telling, but misses crucial
| realities about Germany's capabilities and social achievements.
| Yes, Germany creates bureaucracies. Yes, Dorothee Bar's digital
| infrastructure record isn't impressive. And yes, German
| bureaucracy can be stifling. But this myopic focus on
| administrative inefficiency overlooks Germany's formidable
| strengths.
|
| Germany maintains world-class engineering and manufacturing
| excellence through their Mittelstand network while America has
| hollowed out its industrial base. German research institutions
| like Max Planck and Fraunhofer consistently produce breakthrough
| innovations in renewable energy, advanced materials, and chemical
| engineering. Their aerospace contributions through Airbus and DLR
| deliver real technological advances.
|
| More importantly, Germany excels precisely where America falters.
| Their dual education system creates exceptional technical
| competence without requiring college degrees. Germans enjoy
| comprehensive public transportation infrastructure, universal
| healthcare without administrative bloat, and urban planning that
| prioritizes livability over speculation.
|
| The results speak for themselves: Germans live significantly
| longer (81.1 years vs America's 76.4), face virtually no gun
| violence (2 deaths per million annually vs America's 120), and
| don't suffer from the manufactured scarcity that plagues American
| housing, healthcare, and education markets.
|
| Critically, Germany isn't now teetering on becoming a police
| state. While America expands surveillance powers, militarizes
| police forces, and faces growing authoritarianism, Germany's
| post-war constitutional framework continues to prioritize civil
| liberties, privacy protections, and democratic norms. Their
| painful historical lessons have created institutional guardrails
| against authoritarianism that America increasingly lacks.
|
| Let's be honest about who's posting these dismissive takes -
| primarily privileged tech workers disconnected from the material
| realities faced by average citizens. While you mock German
| bureaucracy from comfortable positions, their social systems
| deliver concrete benefits that many Americans can only dream of.
|
| Germany's approach allows for longer, healthier lives with
| dramatically less precarity than what Americans experience. Their
| new ministry may face bureaucratic challenges, but it builds on
| foundations of technical excellence and social achievement that
| deserve genuine consideration rather than facile mockery.
| Aldipower wrote:
| I really dislike the Germany against America sentiment of this
| post. This is not how you bring arguments to the table. Saying
| this a German.
| calmoo wrote:
| Having no gun violence and having a higher life expectancy than
| America is not something to be proud of and not a useful
| benchmark. This comment is a prime example of Germany's
| inability to take external criticism - it nearly always
| devolves into comparison with America. You know many non-
| americans also criticise the state of Germany currently?
| Zigurd wrote:
| /s?
| calmoo wrote:
| Not sure what could be interpreted as sarcasm in my
| comment. It is pretty direct and on the nose.
| seertaak wrote:
| Interesting comment, but Germany's much-vaunted Mittelstand is
| in its initial death throes. Key industries and IP are being
| auctioned off to the highest bidder, not the least, for lack of
| heirs. It isn't universally acknowledged, but the same
| processes that caused the US's manufacturing decay have been
| occurring in Germany; at roughly the same speed, but with a 30
| year lag (since Agenda 2010) viz-a-vis the US.
| ernst_klim wrote:
| > comprehensive public transportation infrastructure, universal
| healthcare without administrative bloat, and urban planning
| that prioritizes livability over speculation.
|
| This can't be further from the truth. This is probably written
| by an American, and US is a very car-centric, but German
| infrastructure is a shitshow.
|
| Also healthcare is absolutely stiffled by bureaucracy. I have a
| friend who is a cardiologist. He says that exactly half of his
| work time is paperwork. And not just paperwork, but German
| paperwork, where you manually type PDF fields one by one, then
| print, then sign, then scan and so on.
| j-krieger wrote:
| > This can't be further from the truth. This is probably
| written by an American, and US is a very car-centric, but
| German infrastructure is a shitshow.
|
| I just _know_ that this is a comment from a German person who
| has little experience with public transport in any non-top-
| class country. Yeah, it could be better, but it could also be
| _so much worse_.
|
| > Also healthcare is absolutely stiffled by bureaucracy
|
| This I agree with.
| ernst_klim wrote:
| I lived in Russia, Georgia, few European countries. Even in
| Georgia trains are way more punctual, than in Germany.
| Moscow metro works like a Swiss-clock compared to
| U-Bahn/S-Bahn.
|
| Maybe what you are talking about is true for some very pour
| Asian/African countries, but many middle-income countries
| have more reliable public transportation, than Berlin. Not
| to mention developed ones and China.
| eli_gottlieb wrote:
| >Also healthcare is absolutely stiffled by bureaucracy. I
| have a friend who is a cardiologist. He says that exactly
| half of his work time is paperwork. And not just paperwork,
| but German paperwork, where you manually type PDF fields one
| by one, then print, then sign, then scan and so on.
|
| Wait. That's exactly how paperwork has always worked for me
| in America. What am I missing?
| sz4kerto wrote:
| As someone who lived in multiple rich countries in Europe,
| let me tell you that the German healthcare system is awesome.
| It has a lot of problems, but it's head and shoulders above
| many-many other countries. You can actually get care by a
| qualified doctor, while this is absolutely not self-evident
| even in rich countries like the United Kingdom, and let's not
| talk about CEE countries.
| dennis_jeeves2 wrote:
| >Germans live significantly longer (81.1 years vs America's
| 76.4)
|
| Got to point out a nuance here.
|
| Americans living shorter are partly the result of America's
| success. An aggressive big pharma and a health care system that
| over medicates the population and give them bad advise ( eg
| nutrition) is one reason why they live less. Often more
| technology/business is not necessarily good. Germany's overall
| better outcome with result to life expectancy can be attributed
| to their incompetence/bureaucracy but certainly not a conscious
| decision to be better.
| dennis_jeeves2 wrote:
| >Black_13 appears to be shadowbanned so I'm reproducing their
| comment here:
|
| Pity this happens, I was looking at his posts, and most of them
| seem to have a higher degree of original thought than most
| other HN posters.
| pasabagi wrote:
| I actually think Germany would be really good at digital
| infrastructure if they stopped being afraid of friend computer.
| Germany is immensely proud of its history of creating standards -
| there's literally a place in berlin called DIN Platz. Germany is
| also very proud, and rightly so, in its history of mathematical
| innovation.
|
| Everything that isn't dross in the computer world is either a
| well designed standard, or a well designed algorithm. If the
| German government adopted a sensible standard for government
| documents, for example, and mandated that all documents must be
| saved in it, that would already make a huge difference.
| fxtentacle wrote:
| We actually have a rather recent government agency called
| "DigitalHub" for that, too, which has been quite successful at
| pushing open standards and open source. Then there's
| https://zendis.de/#produkte whose sole purpose is to replace
| non-EU closed-source software, for example by replacing Windows
| + Office with Linux and the custom desktop software suite
| https://opendesk.eu/
| ZeWaka wrote:
| openSUSE!
| j-krieger wrote:
| > I actually think Germany would be really good at digital
| infrastructure if they stopped being afraid of friend computer.
|
| They still have the automotive / electrical engineering mindset
| on computers and software. Software in Germany is built to
| achieve a means to an end. It is never the end goal itself.
| shermantanktop wrote:
| > Everything that isn't dross in the computer world is either a
| well designed standard, or a well designed algorithm
|
| You must be hanging out in a different part of the computer
| world.
|
| What I see is that most standards reflect evolved systems, and
| those standards usually have many amendments. Most algorithms
| are generation descendants of broken predecessors. I love
| hearing about a singular talent coming up with something new
| and getting the world to listen, but the story is usually way
| messier than that.
| DataDaoDe wrote:
| Germany has tons of potential, but Germany is one of the most
| risk averse countries on the planet (see Uncertainty Avoidance
| Cultures)[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_avoidance].
| This makes it amazing at building high quality industrial
| products, taking innovation done elsewhere and refining and
| polishing it, slowly over many years - building standards as
| you say. However, it doesn't help much in the innovation
| department. Also as probably the world leader in data privacy
| and protection that's another vector working against
| innovation. And then there is the robust legislation and
| bureaucracy (in a controlling sense) around all financial
| products (not to mention in general), which gives Germany
| advantages in certain industries but is also a distinct
| disadvantage for innovation in many sectors. There is also a
| massive union culture, which provides Germans with a great
| quality of life, but again, that's something probably
| negatively correlated to innovation.
|
| I'd like to see more innovation in general and if this leads to
| that its good. But I don't personally think that innovation
| needs to happen in Germany, so long as it happens somewhere and
| Germans can do what they do best with it.
| andrepd wrote:
| > Also as probably the world leader in data privacy and
| protection that's another vector working against innovation
|
| Extremely thick irony here
| LargoLasskhyfv wrote:
| _cringe_
| slt2021 wrote:
| Germany has no national idea, they have no reason why an average
| burger should work his/her ass off competing with
| Chinese/American/Indian scientists and working 80 hr/week on
| cutting edge research.
|
| Germans are smart and capable, but the German lifestyle is not
| for "super high tech" industry
| tene80i wrote:
| What's your proposal? Give up?
| j-krieger wrote:
| We should stop treating any kind of patriotism and German
| culture like it is from the devil.
| eli_gottlieb wrote:
| Sounds like you kinda just want an excuse to vote AfD
| without pointing to an element of their policy platform you
| think the rest of us should support too.
| ernst_klim wrote:
| Germany is actively killing innovation. I propose to stop for
| starters.
|
| Tho when the median voter is 55 and national motto is "that's
| how it was always done" and "Pensions are secure" - I don't
| put much hope. I still remember the outcry when the digital
| health cards were introduced.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| I hope this works out (even if it's a net negative for the US).
| I have worked with German engineers, and have been quite
| impressed.
|
| I sincerely wish Germany luck. They'd better do a good job of
| securing their IP, though...
| bcye wrote:
| What is the national idea of the other listed countries in
| comparison? Also: a "national idea" isn't the only reason
| people do cutting edge research.
| fxtentacle wrote:
| The people I know that do cutting-edge research mostly do it
| because it's fun. That might be hard to imagine, but if you
| have great (government-funded) local hackerspaces where you can
| meet others, talk to them and built stuff together, it becomes
| a viable free-time activity. For example, I can schedule a
| Prusa (FDM) / Form (SLA) / Fuse (SLS) print job remotely and
| then quickly walk there to pick it up. If I need custom sheet
| metal or wood, I'll bring a USB stick with the DXF and then
| walk. That kind of infrastructure massively cuts down on
| iteration times. Plus it's great to get feedback in-person by
| other tinkerers when you pick things up.
| ernst_klim wrote:
| That's all good and well, but the very time you would try to
| start selling your tinkering, or, God forbid, hire somebody -
| that's where the hell begins.
|
| Being a self-employed is a living hell in Germany, as well as
| receiving any money outside of employment. Esp. if money are
| small (but > than hobby money, 500 euro iirc) and don't
| justify the hurdle of dealing with Finanzamt, tax pre-
| payment, possible regulations with upfront Formulars etc.
| eli_gottlieb wrote:
| You mean as opposed to the American national idea of "work or
| starve, bitch"?
| bpodgursky wrote:
| If you ever visited America, it would immediately strike you
| that no Americans, rich or poor, black or white, are
| starving. Frankly, we could all use a little more starving.
| ericyd wrote:
| What's with the mis-matched hyphens/dashes?
| guywithahat wrote:
| The more I read about this, the more it feels like a VW bailout.
| If you want innovation, make it easier to start up and shut down
| research companies, you don't need a new ministry to hand out
| taxpayer money to companies.
| flanked-evergl wrote:
| And the win goes to China, as always. Well played.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| Surprised to see the negativity in the comments - if executed
| well, this is exactly the sort of thing governments should be
| aiming to do: solving social coordination problems and funding
| with long-term horizons.
| franze wrote:
| *executed well*
|
| but first regulated to death
| whimsicalism wrote:
| I think the EU is increasingly aware of its faults,
| especially in Germany & France. Happy to watch them cook and
| I say that as an American who has watched on with pain at
| what the EU has done to itself over the last decade+.
| analog31 wrote:
| Are their people worse off?
| whimsicalism wrote:
| In my view, yes - especially when you subset to native
| born populations. Many europeans are a proud people
| though so I understand this is contentious, regardless of
| what the numbers say.
| vondur wrote:
| According to this article, the answer is yes:
|
| https://www.wsj.com/world/europeans-poorer-inflation-
| economy...
| bobthepanda wrote:
| It depends on what you are looking at.
|
| For example there is increasing consensus that Merkel's
| "black-zero" budget requirements set the stage for
| today's collapsing German infrastructure and lack of
| productivity growth due to decreased public investment.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| Think it has much more to do with traditional EU
| regulator attitudes around the dual of labor & capital
| markets. Both are very dysfunctional in Europe, with
| labor probably slightly edging out in terms of
| dysfunction.
| bobthepanda wrote:
| thats also not helping, but it's not exactly a secret
| that German public infrastructure from roads to rails to
| electricity and whatnot are also all crumbling.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| it's hard to build infrastructure when you have
| dysfunctional labor markets & your tax base is declining
| in real terms.
| FirmwareBurner wrote:
| _" You eventually run out of other peoples' money"_
|
| And wait till the EU starts paying it's own defense bills
| without the US, which is what it wants to do. But with
| money from where? Education? Healthcare? Welfare?
| analog31 wrote:
| I'm thinking about things like life expectancy, infant
| mortality, maternal mortality, health care, violent
| crime, suicide, incarceration, traffic safety...
| DataDaoDe wrote:
| I can't speak for France, but for Germany, unfortunately,
| by most metrics that matter (affordable housing,
| infrastructure, subjective well-being, energy costs,
| labor markets, etc.) compared to 20 years ago, yes.
| However, compared to most other countries, Germany is
| still doing quite well. So it all depends on the context
| for how you interpret the data.
|
| [1]
| https://www.imf.org/en/News/Articles/2024/03/27/germanys-
| rea... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_economic_
| crisis_%282022...
| andy_ppp wrote:
| I have an alternative theory about tech and growth in Europe
| - the rich are too greedy here and are not optimistic enough
| about growth. They:
|
| a) don't fund risky things
|
| b) don't believe Europe can create unicorns so it becomes a
| self fulfilling prophecy for their investments
|
| c) try to cash out too quickly from potentially huge
| businesses
|
| d) valuations are half the investment for double the equity,
| so of course the companies have half the runway and half the
| upside.
| whimsicalism wrote:
| No comment except that 'the rich are too greedy here' is an
| extremely european explanation for EU economic
| underperformance.
| andy_ppp wrote:
| You're completely misinterpreting and taking out of
| context the whole point I'm trying to make for a cheap
| swipe at Europe. Do you actually disagree with what I
| said or are you trying to win Internet points with
| semantics? Do you even disagree with the bulk of my
| complaint about investment in Europe?
|
| Do you even disagree that investors try to take a larger
| equity position in companies in the EU than in the US?
| franze wrote:
| yeah, who still remembers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaero
| the German-French initiative against Google. A European search
| engine.
|
| In the end Technicolor / Thomson, Exalead, SAP, France Telecom
| (Orange) got most of the funding if I remember right. Other than
| a few university, museum digitalisation projects nothing consumer
| facing ever so the light of day.
| ulrischa wrote:
| This will not work. Germany is totally driven by lawyers. No room
| for new ideas. Everybody is doing ass covering instead of working
| together building something great
| nixass wrote:
| > also plans to woo scientists from abroad
|
| but also god forbid you arrive to Germany with <C1 German. ABH
| office is waiting with guns fully loaded
| onecommentman wrote:
| The phrase "super-high-tech ministry" doesn't sound like the
| correctly nuanced translation of _Super-Hightech-Ministeriums_.
| In English, it begs the question whether they are really serious
| -- why isn't it "super-duper-high-tech" or "ultra-high-tech" or
| "hyper-high-tech"? Calling something "super-X" in English sounds
| a little marketingspeak-clumsy and opens you up to these jibes.
| gillesjacobs wrote:
| I need an LLM in my fax machine.
| holowoodman wrote:
| > "Our goal is that the world's first fusion reactor should be
| realized in Germany,"
|
| This will never happen. At some point they will notice that
| fusion is something with "nuclear" and "atoms" and they will
| immediately jump to "scary", "dangerous" and "verboten".
| Ridius wrote:
| Germany is home to one of the most promising Fusion projects -
| "Wendelstein 7-X "
| holowoodman wrote:
| Germany also was home to some of the most cutting edge
| fission research. Otto Hahn (the ship, not the guy),
| THTR-300, EPR, SNR-300, ...
|
| All gone now.
| arghandugh wrote:
| This is a militarization effort to counter Mad King Trump who has
| overthrown the USA and is threatening the global order for his
| own sick pleasure.
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