[HN Gopher] Hunt for Red October 1990 (2016)
___________________________________________________________________
Hunt for Red October 1990 (2016)
Author : nixass
Score : 307 points
Date : 2025-04-10 07:11 UTC (15 hours ago)
(HTM) web link (www.modelshipsinthecinema.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (www.modelshipsinthecinema.com)
| boricj wrote:
| The making of for "The Hunt for Red October" describes some of
| the other practical effects inside that movie, like the scenes on
| the surface with the Red October or the set for the interiors of
| the submarines: https://youtube.com/watch?v=2_epfA20dOY
| bambax wrote:
| Great reportage, thanks! What a great movie that is. I can't
| get enough of Scott Glenn as a captain.
| dylan604 wrote:
| I never had a mental image of Mancuso from reading the book,
| but Glenn is what was always pictured in my mind in any of
| the other books he appears. Similar for Jack, I never really
| got a mental image of Ford or Affleck, it was always closer
| to Baldwin if not quite Baldwin. Mancuso was just flat out
| Glenn.
| keane wrote:
| Presumably the description that "mirrors were used in a periscope
| like arrangement" refers to something like these:
| https://www.keslowcamera.com/gear/lenses/other/periscopes-an...
| or https://www.panavision.com/camera-and-
| optics/optics/product-...
| ggm wrote:
| I once played with a sub miniature version of this with a 35mm
| screw adapter. I think it's the kind of thing used to shoot
| inside violins, or the one I saw architectural models.
|
| Bigger would admit much more light for film
| ggm wrote:
| My memory is the intruded explosions and depth charge effects
| were a bit intrusive to the model. ILM was fusing digital and
| analogue effects?
| rtkwe wrote:
| They look like they were taken separately and composited in
| later but I don't think they're digital effects beyond
| compositing them into the shot, rig removal, color
| matching/grading etc.
| Noumenon72 wrote:
| The pylon holding up the ship out of frame reminded me of the
| Captain Disillusion video on how they did the ship in Flight of
| the Navigator.
| https://youtu.be/tyixMpuGEL8?si=PBwP3BWLcuSfTu2n&t=206
| mark_undoio wrote:
| Thank you - I'm watching that video now and it's amazing!
| ljf wrote:
| Off topic, but always amazed me that the Russian submarine in
| this film has a swimming pool (more like a plunge pool) but still
| seems wild.
|
| https://youtu.be/JrULRXlAlMU?si=kvh64qy64E7aqXPY
| pbhjpbhj wrote:
| Presumably there's some point in the film where you see this is
| actually in a sub rather than a propaganda film made elsewhere?
| skhr0680 wrote:
| It's real, there are photos from a real tour of a Typhoon
| submarine
| unwind wrote:
| This [1] seems to be a Quora post featuring such images.
| Very cool, didn't know that!
|
| [1]: https://www.quora.com/Did-the-Typhoon-class-of-
| submarine-rea...
| mytailorisrich wrote:
| There are two decomissioned Typhoons visible on Google
| Maps, with parking spaces and cars for scale:
| https://maps.app.goo.gl/ov8Ppr6PE6X1gG1B9
| sandworm101 wrote:
| It only seems wild in light of how the US relates to its
| military. For all the hype about life in the russian navy, you
| are still much more likely to see sailors suntanning on a
| russian ship than any USN boat.
|
| Look at this footage. Look at the guys on the helo deck. When
| russian sailors have time off, they take it seriously.
|
| https://youtu.be/fVXxTS2f8CE
| kstrauser wrote:
| My ship celebrated July 4, 1994 off the coast of Mogadishu by
| holding a "steel beach picnic" on the flight deck. Everyone
| ran around under the noon equatorial sun in swimsuits while
| people grilled burgers, set up little inflatable pools to
| lounge in, played volleyball and soccer, and otherwise acted
| like we were at Ocean Beach on a hot day. At night we had
| fireworks (including rounds from the 5" guns) and the CIWS
| shot a stream of tracer bullets. It was glorious.
|
| The US Navy spends long hours working hard, but I promise you
| it plays hard when possible.
| dwighttk wrote:
| Sometimes they even play football with two footballs!
| sandworm101 wrote:
| USN certainly does events. That is that culture. The
| Russians are more about day-to-day comforts: fewer big
| party days but more everyday stuff.
| pydry wrote:
| Submarine life is inherently miserable. Anything the military
| can do to make their life less miserable does wonders for
| morale which leads to a better functioning sub.
|
| They military also spends a lot on making sure that they are
| _very_ well fed - as much as they can be under the
| circumstances:
|
| https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/navy-ships/a147643...
| dataviz1000 wrote:
| The tour guide in the galley of USS Blueback noted that if the
| ice cream machine didn't work the submarine was not considered
| operational and required immediate repair.
| regularfry wrote:
| If a British tank's tea-making facilities aren't working,
| it's the same.
| devilbunny wrote:
| Being on a sub is intensely mentally wearing. Months at sea,
| no interaction with the world outside.
|
| Feeding the sailors lavishly is one of their few perks.
| danielvf wrote:
| A normal ballistic missile submarine has one pressure hull,
| with a large section of ballistic missiles taking up the middle
| of it. This submarine has two pressure hulls, on either side
| containing no missiles, but sandwiching the missiles between
| them. In theory this means that you can torpedo the sub from a
| side, and the missiles are still okay. But it also means that
| the sub has ludicrous amounts of space available. No missiles
| taking up pressure hull space, and two, not one pressure hulls.
| So everything on this sub got to be more spacious and there was
| room for extras.
| hylaride wrote:
| Yeah, the Typhoon sub was like two submarines side-by-side
| inside the external shell. The scene in the movie where Alec
| Baldwin fights the KGB agent between the missile silos ("Some
| things there don't react well to bullets") couldn't have
| happened as the missile tubes are between those internal
| hulls, though one could have argued this sub was built
| differently with it's "silent drive".
|
| Still an amazing movie.
|
| Diagram here: https://imageio.forbes.com/specials-
| images/imageserve/5f40d7...
| ralfd wrote:
| From the yt comments:
|
| One of the crew members' memoir (Eduard Ovechkin "Akuly iz
| stali") mentions that the pool was filled with freshwater. The
| crew rarely used the pool themselves, because they could find
| better use for that much water. The author had an interesting
| story about this swimming pool. One day, a high-ranking officer
| came with inspection. He was very rude and the crew didn't like
| him in return, especially since he sat in the captain's chair
| (only the captain was supposed to sit there). Then this officer
| wanted to take a swim and he ordered the crew to prepare a
| pool. As the author was drawing water, he and other crew
| members decided to urinate in the pool. And then watched as
| this officer was swimming there, barely containing the
| laughter. When they finally told the captain about this in
| control room some time later, the submarine was sailing without
| control for several minutes, because everyone was laughing on
| the floor.
| nradov wrote:
| It's like the old public swimming pool joke. "Check the pH!"
| "Hmm, mostly p, not much H."
| sephalon wrote:
| A German film crew shot a documentary onboard a Typhoon class
| submarine (the TK-20 Severstal) in 2001, showing many aspects
| of daily life onboard, including the launch of a RSM-52 ICBM
| [1] (unfortunately awful video quality).
|
| In hindsight, they catched a brief window in recent history
| where a western film crew would be allowed on board of a
| Russian ballistic missile submarine - remember that 2001 was
| the year when Putin gave a speech in the German parliament (in
| German language!) speculating about a new common safety
| architecture eventually succeeding NATO.
|
| [1] https://youtu.be/cVWBhpjwXxo?si=IQkR6Pbx4dh86y0F&t=1172
| beloch wrote:
| It's interesting that ILM went with a smoke chamber to shoot the
| underwater scenes in this film. It was probably a _lot_ easier
| than shooting underwater and less likely to screw up the models.
| Some of the time this method looks fantastic but, at other times,
| it looks like a model in a room full of smoke. I 've always found
| the underwater model scenes shot for Das Boot[1] to be more
| convincing.
|
| [1]https://theasc.com/articles/das-boot
| bambax wrote:
| Underwater scenes on "For your eyes only" (1981) were all
| filmed on land because Carole Bouquet couldn't go underwater.
| When you know it you can see it, but when I saw the film (one
| of the first time I ever went to the movies) I didn't notice it
| at all.
| dylan604 wrote:
| It's less about screwing up the models as much as not needing a
| pool, as well as not needing underwater capable cameras.
| Underwater rigging for cameras puts incredible limitations on
| what camera is used, the motion of the camera, etc. Keeping
| everything dry is always going to be preferred. The motion
| control equipment isn't meant for use underwater either. It
| just makes much more sense to shoot it dry. Especially
| considering this was before CGI and 3D rendering was in its
| infancy, maybe toddler stages.
| hinkley wrote:
| Adhesion and cohesion always fuck up scenes that combine scale
| models and water. Splashes always look very wrong, and in the
| case of a submersible bubbles could be a problem. Smoke chamber
| makes sense.
|
| Although in the days since "O Brother Where Art Thou?", when
| they added dust-yellow color to the entire movie in post, maybe
| there are other ways now, if you didn't want to go entirely to
| CGI.
| vonmoltke wrote:
| > Adhesion and cohesion always fuck up scenes that combine
| scale models and water. Splashes always look very wrong
|
| Like the terrible model work in _In Harm 's Way_.
| hinkley wrote:
| Time Bandits was pretty bad and so as I recall was Clash of
| the Titans. OG versions of both.
| mmustapic wrote:
| This man bought the prop recently
|
| https://cowboystatedaily.com/2024/10/28/the-hunt-for-red-oct...
| dylan604 wrote:
| I don't think prop is the right word here
| belter wrote:
| If you like Red October, dont miss the french movie "Le chant du
| loup". Absolutely great for lovers of the genre: "The Wolf's
| Call" - https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7458762/
| bartekpacia wrote:
| +1!
|
| I had little expectations toward that movie (I think it was
| just randomly airing on the TV and I watched it), but was very
| pleasantly surprised.
|
| I'm a fan of Clancy's books (and movies based on them), and The
| Wolf's Call could easily be one of them.
| boleary-gl wrote:
| I love Clancy's books too and hate that they ruined his
| legacy by slapping his name on a whole bunch of books he
| didn't write at the end there.
| owlninja wrote:
| And "Das Boot"!
| belter wrote:
| Yes of course! I did not mention it since it's so well know.
| sandworm101 wrote:
| Fyi, based on a true story:
|
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_frigate_Storozhevoy
|
| "Gregory D. Young was the first Westerner to investigate the
| mutiny as part of his 1982 master's thesis Mutiny on Storozhevoy:
| A Case Study of Dissent in the Soviet Navy. One of 37 copies of
| Young's thesis was placed in the Nimitz Library of the United
| States Naval Academy where it was read by Tom Clancy, then an
| insurance salesman, who used it as inspiration to write The Hunt
| for Red October."
| ToddWBurgess wrote:
| There is a great YouTube video on the subject if you are
| interested. Its 38 minutes long but worth the watch.
|
| When The Soviets Hunted Down Their Own Warship
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kkBQl7YRI3E
| radiowave wrote:
| Youtube channel InCamera did an interesting series of videos
| showing their use of practical effects in the creation of a
| submarine-based short. Not directly related to Red October, but
| folks might find it worth a watch.
|
| https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PL0pnlLzhW4c1v-vKUWRWXZBD4...
| zombot wrote:
| Yay, in one of the photos there's a giant mermaid beside the
| submarine!
|
| Great article.
| sswaner wrote:
| "This business will get out of control. It will get out of
| control and we'll be lucky to live through it."
|
| Overheard every few sprints...
| PaulRobinson wrote:
| Yah, yah, yah... [waves people away while walking through
| offices, before sitting down to a cup of tea and some
| correspondence]
|
| That scene is how most Monday mornings feel as I start to
| process my inbox. Including dropping the cup of tea all over
| myself and immediately needing a meeting with my superiors.
| gwbennett wrote:
| Great read on how ILM made the shots. As a crew member on the USS
| Salt Lake City (SSN-716), we took many of the cast and crew out
| to sea for 24 hours before they made the movie to get a feel for
| what sub-life was like before they made the movie. All the cast
| and crew were great, and I think it made the movie better.
|
| Actor Scott Glenn, who plays the Captain of Dallas, modeled his
| character after our Captain, Tom Fargo.
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rjO_VrESNo
|
| It is a great movie!
| encoderer wrote:
| You read the book? I'm curious how all of the operational
| details and jargon held up to a real sailor.
| gwbennett wrote:
| yes, I read the book before I got to the boat when I was at
| nuclear reactor prototype training in Idaho. Read it on the
| long bus rides back and forth to the site. Yes, it was good
| and pretty operationally accurate. All the sub lingo etc, is
| accurate. Some of the actors on the bridge of the Dallas were
| active duty sub sailors at the time.
| jayrot wrote:
| >Actor Scott Glenn, who plays the Captain of Dallas, modeled
| his character after our Captain, Tom Fargo.
|
| Terrific character. I just love the competency and leadership.
| Hopefully your Cpt. Fargo was just as good.
|
| My favorite exchange from the movie is when Jonesy brings his
| report to the captain. He's aware of how crazy this theory
| sounds, especially when his very serious and hard-to-read
| captain rephrases it back to him. Jonesy starts getting nervous
| and fumbling and Mancuso cuts him off -- "Relax, Jonesy. You
| sold me." Not quite sure why that simple line hits so hard.
|
| [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7g6dKncO-I
| gwbennett wrote:
| Capt Tom Fargo was better. As you learn from that YouTube
| video, he went on to run 7th Fleet as an Admiral. The stuff
| we did while he was CO was important in the Cold War for the
| security of the US.
| dylan604 wrote:
| So did Mancuso if you followed the books.
| dylan604 wrote:
| I use the "runs home to mama" line a lot when describing an
| unexpected result from a black box we've integrated into our
| workflows.
|
| I love the "You sold me" line too, as it shows how Mancuso is
| willing to listen to his men even when they have such an out
| of the box idea. It also helps make Mancuso listening to
| Jack's port/starboard Crazy Ivan maneuver. He's kind of
| already bought into Jack's idea by that point anyways.
| Otherwise, he'd already had Jack into quarters somewhere
| leopoldj wrote:
| Google search is weirdly hallucinating saying "Theodore Scott
| Glenn is an American actor and Distinguished Professor at
| Rutgers University". As far as I can tell the actor and
| professor are two different people. Am I wrong? Can't tell what
| is true/false anymore.
| kens wrote:
| I ran into a similar issue when researching Bill Paxton, a
| computer scientist who worked on the Mother of All Demos.
| Google's AI told me that he was also known for his roles in
| Aliens and Titanic, but that's a different person. I told
| Bill Paxton (the computer scientist) about this and he found
| it amusing.
| nopelynopington wrote:
| Search engines are getting less usable..I assume this is
| because they're leaning into LLMs
| emeril wrote:
| for those who didn't realize - same guy is Walton Goggins
| father in S03 of White Lotus
| tptacek wrote:
| Just a quick note that this film _really_ holds up, like weirdly
| well given its subject and vintage. If you haven 't watched it in
| a long time, add it to your list.
| gdubs wrote:
| Watched it again recently -- still great. Alec Baldwin is a
| great Jack Ryan. It's such different role than what he's become
| known for since.
| MarcelOlsz wrote:
| Now watch the uncut version of Das Boot undubbed (5hr8m
| long).
| metalliqaz wrote:
| > 5hr8m long
|
| pass
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| /me remorsefully remembers the cute German girl who asked
| him if he wanted to go see it with her. Decades later, it
| occurred to me that she liked me. Oh, well, story of my
| life!
| tptacek wrote:
| The 5 hour uncut Das Boot is an amazing first date.
| thot_experiment wrote:
| wow lol, the normal version is already 2 and a half hours
| and kind of a slog for something the author of the source
| book described as a "cheap, shallow American action flick"
| and a "contemporary German propaganda newsreel from World
| War II"
|
| you must be blessed with a very high level of masochism to
| want to read subtitles for 5 hours
| jltsiren wrote:
| A 5-hour movie is long, but not that long for people used
| to binge-watching TV shows. And I'd argue that watching
| modern productions without subtitles is a clearer
| indication of masochism. Too many actors just mumble
| their lines. If you care about the dialogue, you either
| have to use subtitles or concentrate and remain alert all
| the time.
| xxr wrote:
| The trick they use to handle the transition from Russian to
| English dialogue is so cool.
| throw4847285 wrote:
| It's so cool that John McTiernan did it again in The 13th
| Warrior. A worse movie (not as bad as people say), but I
| think that one scene is extraordinary.
|
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVVURiaVgG8
| hinkley wrote:
| 13th Warrior usually makes the top list of any "movies that
| Rotten Tomatoes has done dirty".
|
| It depends I think on whether the Big Trouble in Little
| China fans are still asleep.
| tptacek wrote:
| Rotten Tomatoes scores Big Trouble in Little China
| favorably, as it obviously should.
| hinkley wrote:
| Not sure if Mandela Effect or the score has been changing
| over time.
|
| Edit: I think the box office was terrible
| nopelynopington wrote:
| 13th warrior is a fantastic film with an undeserved
| reputation. It's the best version of Beowulf on film and
| full of memorable lines.
|
| That scene is one of my faves.
| ubermonkey wrote:
| That is one of my favorite moments in the film, and maybe in
| filmmaking generally.
| tptacek wrote:
| I'm trying hard to think of a false or dated moment in the
| whole movie. If you made a 1984 period film about the same
| subject, in 2025, I'm not sure what would be different other
| than the actors. Even the SFX hold up.
| rootbear wrote:
| Agreed. As for the Russian spoken by American actors, my
| friend, a Russian linguist, said Alec Baldwin's Russian was
| fine, but Sean Connery's was terrible.
| falcrist wrote:
| One of the interesting things about the movie was how well they
| conveyed the mood and atmosphere on subs.
|
| I don't know exactly how to describe it, but the sub force just
| has a different temperament than the surface fleet.
|
| Of course, all of that went out the window when people in the
| movie started yelling at each other. From that point on it's a
| fictional scenario contrived to create a dramatic story.
|
| Same with Apollo 13. Everything I see and hear about NASA
| personnel indicates that these people are consummate
| professionals who stay cool under extreme circumstances... but
| that wouldn't make for a good movie.
|
| I should probably note that this is coming from the perspective
| of someone who grew up with a father who was an career enlisted
| man (CPO/EM-N) stationed mostly on boomers.
| mandevil wrote:
| Right. The thing that bugs me about Apollo 13 is that they
| played up the drama unnecessarily, because the ground crew
| was so large, well-trained, and in sync. Like the scene where
| they dump a box of stuff and say "You have to make this go
| into here using just this?"- the actual story is that one of
| the engineers on the ground realized basically as soon as he
| heard about the accident (and the LM lifeboat) that they
| would need to use the CM scrubbers, and within five minutes
| of talking to another engineer they had figured it out in
| principle. The delay was that they wanted to walk through all
| the steps to make sure their documentation was correct, and
| the only CM scrubber available was at Kennedy, so they had to
| wait while it was put on a plane and flown to Houston to mate
| with the rest of the practice equipment.
|
| Similarly, the "oh we forgot the moon rocks!" bit was
| actually the engineers realizing it ahead of time and
| changing the prep checklist to account for it, rather than a
| last second dash. This was only because there were so many
| engineers, and they had made themselves so immersed in the
| task, and they had such good lines of communication that
| someone identified the problem and was able to escalate the
| fix to the correct levels at the appropriate time. This
| didn't happen by accident, but was the result of years of
| working together, both training and the experience of actual
| flights that made these teams so good.
|
| Separately, there were a few things the movie got wrong just
| as one-off moments. At launch the arms retracted
| simultaneously, rather than sequentially as shown in the
| movie (not quite as cool looking) and if you listen to the
| bit where Lovell says "Houston, check my math here" he is
| doing addition, which can't be done on a slide rule.
| dylan604 wrote:
| > "Houston, check my math here" he is doing addition, which
| can't be done on a slide rule.
|
| I still love that scene where it cuts to everyone whipping
| out their slide rules. It just adds to the mystique of we
| put men on the moon with such antiquated tech compared to
| modern standards (even of those available in the 90s when
| the movie was made).
| falcrist wrote:
| You've probably seen it, but you'd definitely love the
| movie "Hidden Figures".
|
| They do seem to get the adding machines more or less
| correct.
| rootbear wrote:
| It's a reality of cinema that when they do a biopic or a
| film about a real event, they often have to make changes
| that enhance the drama. Some of these are reasonable, some
| not so. In Apollo 13, they upped the drama by significantly
| shortening the time required to get the LEM up and running
| as a lifeboat. I'm okay with that. Inserting drama where
| there was none is less justifiable, as it speaks to the
| character of the persons involved.
|
| That said, as a retired NASA contractor, I can say that
| Apollo 13 is highly respected at NASA. Hidden Figures has a
| lot of fans there, too. In spite of the horrible physics,
| Gravity also has its fans - some astronauts said it really
| captured the feeling of being in space.
| lupusreal wrote:
| > _Everything I see and hear about NASA personnel indicates
| that these people are consummate professionals who stay cool
| under extreme circumstances_
|
| On the whole, they were consummate professionals. And then
| there is the Apollo 10 turd incident.
| stult wrote:
| Similarly the Clancy book Red Storm Rising really holds up
| well, and weirdly may be one of the best primers on Russian
| military practices, culture, and capabilities as the force was
| constituted during the first year of their full scale invasion
| of Ukraine.
| psunavy03 wrote:
| Arguably RSR vis a vis Ukraine in 2022 is a great primer on
| just how much the Russian military had decayed from their
| mid-80s Soviet peak. You can study histories and interviews
| from the late Cold War about just how much of a bloodbath the
| NATO militaries expected a Russian invasion of West Germany
| to be.
|
| The USAF A-10 fleet was expected to have been wiped out in
| approximately 2-3 weeks of fighting based on expected loss
| rates, and nuclear escalation was not outside the realm of
| possibility.
|
| What the Ukrainians managed to do in 2022 was impressive,
| full stop. But to understand what that reveals about the
| Russians, you also need to understand that the Ukrainians are
| essentially a JV military as opposed to the US, a NATO force,
| or someone like the Australians, Japanese, or South Koreans.
| The bravery is there, but they just don't have the same
| ability to integrate the details at scale such as fires,
| logistics, and large-scale joint operations, because they're
| still trying to shake off their Soviet past.
|
| Whereas although the Soviets would have similar problems that
| come from being an authoritarian military, NATO would have
| been fighting them AND the entire Warsaw Pact (East Germany,
| Czechoslovakia, Poland et al). The Soviets wouldn't have had
| 30+ years of Russian societal decay and would have had the
| advantage of sheer mass.
| RajT88 wrote:
| > The bravery is there, but they just don't have the same
| ability to integrate the details at scale such as fires,
| logistics, and large-scale joint operations, because
| they're still trying to shake off their Soviet past.
|
| Welllll. I saw posted here last week (cannot find it now),
| that the US helped them with the logistics and recon a lot
| more than was previously known. Like, "Shoot your artillery
| here at this time, and you'll like what happens. If you
| don't like it, we'll work harder to make you happy."
| psunavy03 wrote:
| There are two things a NATO/Western military has that the
| Ukrainians don't fully have yet: the technology and
| assets you're talking about, but also officers and
| noncoms who've been brought up in the type of warfighting
| culture that can best make use of it. There's a great
| article from the start of the war written by a retired
| Army three-star here:
| https://www.thebulwark.com/p/i-commanded-u-s-army-europe-
| her...
|
| The reason the US and Western militaries could utterly
| crush an opponent in places like Iraq is due to having
| not just cool gear, but a culture that promotes
| excellence in execution. Junior folks who can excel at
| small-unit tactics, and senior folks who have learned how
| to operate and orchestrate the large-scale machine over a
| 20-30 year career.
| computerdork wrote:
| That was a really interesting article. It does show
| though why Ukraine's relatively small army is able to
| punch above its weight class vs the more poorly train and
| led Russians. Was a great read:)
| somerandomqaguy wrote:
| I wouldn't say it was just that. The Ukrainians realized
| they were in trouble in 2014 when Russia lopped off
| Crimea, and ordered a painful introspective to highlight
| all the weaknesses of their military.
|
| They spent 8 years overhauling their military and
| learning from invited western forces to prepare for an
| invasion that they hoping beyond all would never come.
| And it paid off in spades.
| creer wrote:
| Fantastic article thanks! Good look into career postings.
| And it seems the Ukrainians worked hard in the few years
| of explicit notice they got.
| ftkftk wrote:
| This is the article you are referring to (gift link): htt
| ps://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2025/03/29/world/europe/
| ...
| hylaride wrote:
| > You can study histories and interviews from the late Cold
| War about just how much of a bloodbath the NATO militaries
| expected a Russian invasion of West Germany to be.
|
| * _With the full benefit of hindsight*_ , most experts that
| I have read seem to agree that (ignoring nuclear weapons
| and staying completely conventional) the Russians were as a
| whole stronger on land in Europe than the west up until the
| mid-1970s, when western technological advancements started
| to remove the numbers advantages and were hard for the
| economically stagnating communist countries to keep up
| with. By the mid 1980s, the only real direct advantage the
| soviets had was a closer supply line than the bulk of
| NATO's power, which was the USA.
|
| There are records showing the shock that Soviet military
| experts had at the effectiveness of the western stealth and
| jamming equipment that was used in the 1991 Gulf War (that
| was waged right at the tail end of the USSR's existence).
| It's much more regarded now that had a full blown
| NATO/Warsaw pact conflict occurred in the 1980s, the
| Soviets would have likely lost had they not effectively
| destroyed NATO's air power early on, though to be fair most
| experts in the west weren't as sure just how effective
| their kit would end up being.
|
| Even taking air power out of the equation, the armoured
| kill ratios would have favoured NATO if it was even 1/4 the
| ratio it was against the Iraqis. Again here, the only
| advantage the Soviets would have had was if they got
| complete surprise before NATO could mobilise.
|
| > NATO would have been fighting them AND the entire Warsaw
| Pact (East Germany, Czechoslovakia, Poland et al).
|
| There are mixed signals in the archives we have access to
| about how well (or more accurately reliable) a good chunk
| of the Warsaw Pact would have been if the cold war turned
| hot. Half the Red Army's presence in these countries was to
| threaten them and keep a lid on any revolutions that
| cropped up (as they did inCzechoslovakia and Hungary as
| hard violent examples, and Poland in the early 1980s as a
| soft one). It was very nebulous with Romania in particular
| that it would participate in anything other than an full
| "unprovoked attack" from NATO.
|
| > The Soviets wouldn't have had 30+ years of Russian
| societal decay and would have had the advantage of sheer
| mass.
|
| There was already decay by the 1980s. Corruption was rife
| in the Soviet army, especially during and after the
| Afghanistan conflict. There are many documented cases of
| Soviet officers in Europe selling fuel earmarked for the
| army to local civilians, among other things. Many also
| participated with opium smuggling from Afghanistan to
| Europe as Soviet officers had some freedom to move around
| western parts of Germany unmolested, in particular West
| Berlin.
| psunavy03 wrote:
| > There are records showing the shock that Soviet
| military experts had at the effectiveness of the western
| stealth and jamming equipment that was used in the 1991
| Gulf War (that was waged right at the tail end of the
| USSR's existence).
|
| > There are mixed signals in the archives we have access
| to about how well (or more accurately reliable) a good
| chunk of the Warsaw Pact would have been if the cold war
| turned hot.
|
| Are there any decent books on this? Not because I'm
| doubting you, just because it would be a good read.
| sorokod wrote:
| You may be interested in operation Mole Cricket 19 about
| ten years earlier.
|
| https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F33h9-oUfDU&t=2s&pp=2AECkAI
| B
|
| https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Mole_Cricket_19
| nopelynopington wrote:
| UAVs in 1982??
| hylaride wrote:
| > Are there any decent books on this? Not because I'm
| doubting you, just because it would be a good read.
|
| I'm a voracious consumer of cold war history so I've read
| things from all over the place.
|
| I don't have direct sources handy, but for (expected)
| Warsaw pact reliability, it varied a lot by country. I'm
| not saying they wouldn't have fought (the full time core
| communist regime soldiers probably would have), but in a
| war that expands into conscription sucking in more of
| their people is where the will to fight "for the soviets"
| became more tenuous. By the 1980s most eastern block
| citizens knew life was better in the west and local
| revolutions may have had varying degrees of success,
| especially further in the south (again this is in
| hindsight, but the sudden speed of communism's collapse
| in Europe really caught everybody off guard about how
| fragile it all was especially without the threat or
| ability for the Soviets to put it down).
|
| For the technological gaps, most of the good content is
| in either defence-related publications, historical or
| geopolitical think-tank pieces, or postgraduate academic
| writings (where you often go down the rabbit hole of
| looking up citations). It can be dry reading unless
| you're really into it.
|
| Some more accessible examples about soviet reactions the
| success of the 1991 Gulf War:
|
| This report by the US DoD highlights a lot of the Soviet
| denial and excuses early on in the conflict, not
| accepting that it could be so easy (the iraqis were using
| old equipment! They were badly trained!). If you read
| between the lines, there was a lot of doublespeak from
| official Soviet channels about it, but scroll down to the
| conclusion you'll see a lot more tactic admisions of
| capability gaps:
|
| https://community.apan.org/cfs-file/__key/telligent-
| evolutio...
|
| This one has a lot more content via internal Soviet
| thinking. Look at page 9 under "The Revolution in Warfare
| and Desert Storm" for Electronic Warfare notes:
|
| https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/tr/pdf/ADA242543.pdf
|
| This Chicago Tribune article references Russian attitudes
| via "a translated report":
|
| https://web.archive.org/web/20240910225432/https://www.ch
| ica...
|
| This publication "Russia's Air Power at the Crossroads"
| from the mid 1990s is often cited, too:
|
| https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/pdfs/ADA319850.pdf
| dylan604 wrote:
| you also need to understand that the Ukrainians...
|
| really really do not want to be part of Russia again.
| that's what I take away from it. they like being
| independent and are willing to fight this hard to stay that
| way. I can only imagine their utter disappointment with the
| outcome of the US election.
|
| but to your point, it does say a whole helluva lot about
| the inabilities of the Russians too. The fact they are
| using NK troops and now reports of Chinese soldiers too
| says just as much. Like, is Russia reserving its soliders
| on the Western front for NATO reasons rather than just
| using everything against Ukraine? Or are they using the why
| fight with your own soldiers when you can use someone
| else's like why fund your own startup when you can use
| someone else's money
| hylaride wrote:
| > Like, is Russia reserving its soliders on the Western
| front for NATO reasons rather than just using everything
| against Ukraine?
|
| The Russian government is treading a fine line
| domestically. For most Russians, the war is a not
| relevant to them. They do not want to fight, which is why
| when it became clear Russia wasn't going to have a quick
| victory, there was one quick and dirty mobilization that
| mostly sucked up people from the outer regions, in
| particular ethnic minorities. Russia is also dealing with
| acute labour shortages because of a variety of factors,
| including bad demographics, at least a million people
| leaving the country, and demand from arms manufacturers.
| This is why you hear about military contracts being as
| high as 50x the average yearly salary.
|
| This is why there are North Koreans fighting; there was
| already a program that essentially sends North Koreans to
| work in parts of Russia as essentially slave labour that
| the NK govn't gets the money for. This was just an
| extension of that, with the added bonus for the North
| Koreans that they will get their first exposure to combat
| in decades. There are probably a few hundred Chinese
| soldiers (as well as people from a host of other
| countries) that are in it for the money, too.
| dylan604 wrote:
| From all of this, it doesn't really seem like they would
| be much of a threat to NATO. Except for the nukes. As far
| as traditional forces, there seems to be a disconnect
| between the fear of vs the credible threat. Or I'm just
| grossly misjudging things and it's a good example of why
| I'm not involved in any threat assessment type of
| position. Underestimate your opponent at your own peril
| type of thing
| petsfed wrote:
| I mean, aside from the weird civilian rape-to-romance
| subplot, yeah. _Technically_ it holds up well. Which is true
| for most of Clancy 's novels.
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| Didn't he save her (Vigdis?) from being raped, though? Your
| post implies that he raped her, and a romance developed
| from that.
| dylan604 wrote:
| RSR is one of my favorite Clancy books, and I return to it
| quite often. It was the first book I read in my teens with
| such a descriptive telling of what an attack on an air base
| could be like. How the attack allowed for the runways still
| able to be used with "minor" repairs and then reused by the
| over taking forces. Mike's journey is probably my favorite
| plot line.
| dugmartin wrote:
| I make the mistake every few years of picking up my
| battered paperback copy and then end up spending an entire
| weekend reading the entire thing again. Such a good set of
| stories. Mike's reply to the radio operator when they
| stress test his voice is probably my favorite passage.
| dylan604 wrote:
| I always wanted to see this book turned into a movie. I
| had hopes for it since it wasn't part of the Jack Ryan
| series. I can't imagine Larry Bond not wanting to earn
| some extra cash from that kind of deal. Of the Jack Ryan
| series, I had always hoped for a Cardinal In The Kremlin
| movie too. I wanted the laser scene to come alive even if
| they made it along the lines of Spies Like Us. Lasers are
| cool! pew! pew! was the main part of wanting it as a
| movie to be honest
| Tycho wrote:
| Brilliant novel. I was thinking about it recently. Many years
| after reading it, I can still remember many of the
| battle/combat sequences as if I'd seen them on screen. Maybe
| someone could do a big _Band of Brothers_ type adaptation,
| given how far along VFX have come.
| colechristensen wrote:
| A good Sunday afternoon pairs _The Hunt for Red October_ and
| _Down Periscope_
| dylan604 wrote:
| Down Periscope is a definite guilty pleasure.
|
| I've done a submarine day with Red October, Crimson Tide, and
| U-571
| HeyLaughingBoy wrote:
| U-571 was OK, but a disappointment overall.
| nodesocket wrote:
| One of my favorite movies. The Tom Clancy (Jack Ryan[1]) themed
| movies are all very good. I wish Hollywood would make more of
| this type of genre today instead of recycled superhero garbage.
| [1] - The Hunt for Red October (1990) - Patriot
| Games (1992) - Clear and Present Danger (1994) -
| The Sum of All Fears (2002)
| ubermonkey wrote:
| My wife and I (both 55) rewatch this probably once a year. It's a
| really solid film that holds up SUPER well -- so many great
| elements came together here. Obviously, the principal cast is
| outstanding; it's not just Baldwin and Connery.
|
| Sam Neill we always love (Connery's XO; "I would like to have
| seen Montana"), and Scott Glenn (Mancuso, captain of the Dallas)
| rarely disappoints. We also get a late appearance by Richard
| Jordan (would would die only a few years later) and an early one
| by Courtney Vance as the Dallas' sonar tech. Stellan Skarsgard is
| Tupolev, the Soviet sub captain who pursues Connery. Jeffrey
| Jones, mostly of note to our generation as the principal in
| Ferris Bueller, has a small role as the former Navy intelligence
| man Skip Tyler. And there's a blink-and-you-miss-it role for
| Gates "Beverly Crusher" McFadden as Ryan's wife in the early
| moments of the film.
|
| It was only on a relatively recent viewing that we noticed one of
| the Red October's minor officers was played by an actor we'd
| recently seen on TV. On THE AMERICANS one of the main Soviet
| characters is a man named Burov who eventually rotates back to
| the USSR to work in the same government ministry as his father.
| His father is played by Boris Krutonog, who 30 years before
| played Slavin -- his big moment is denouncing the political
| officer as a "pig" at the tense dinner scene early on.
|
| I never know how film-nerdy people are, so I'll also note that
| Red October was directed by John McTiernan, who also directed the
| original Predator, Die Hard, The Last Action Hero, Die Hard with
| a Vengence, and the 1999 Thomas Crown remake. Unfortunately he
| did some deeply shady shit around one of his films and ended up
| in some significant legal trouble that basically blew up his
| career, but the films he made in the 20th century basically all
| hold up pretty dang well. The sense of momentum you get in
| October is present in Die Hard and in Crown as well.
| sizzzzlerz wrote:
| I really liked the movie which was pretty faithful to Clancy's
| book and, I think, to submarine life itself but the one thing I
| didn't like about it was the choice of Sean Connery as Ramius.
| For a supposed Russian speaker, his Scottish accent was a bit
| jarring to my ears. He did a great job with the role but the
| believability was compromised. I be curious to know who the
| producers considered for that part and why they were rejected.
| RajT88 wrote:
| Listen. If you're watching Connery in a film in 1990, you've
| had decades to learn to suspend disbelief regarding his accent
| skills.
| blackguardx wrote:
| Especially the Highlander, a film set mostly in Scotland and
| Connery is supposed to be Spanish...
| RajT88 wrote:
| My favorite egregious accent snafu was _The Wind and the
| Lion_ where he was supposed to be Moroccan tribal leader.
|
| Second favorite was the mad barking which was supposed to
| be Japanese in _Rising Sun_.
| ctrlp wrote:
| I know it's not for cinema but anyone in Cambridge, MA should
| visit the nautical model museum at MIT. Has some excellent large
| models. https://mitmuseum.mit.edu/more/hart-nautical-gallery
| bigie35 wrote:
| Somewhat related (submarine war movie), is Crimson Tide with
| Denzel Washington and Gene Hackman.
|
| I can't vouch for the military accuracy, but can say that the
| drama and intensity is one of best i've seen.
| cdkmoose wrote:
| Love this movie, it turned me into an avid reader of Clancy.
|
| At the time of this movie, I was working as a software engineer
| for a defense contractor building combat control systems for
| submarines. When it was released, the company took the entire
| department, including former Navy submarine officers now
| project/program managers to a private viewing. There were
| definitely groans when some things on the sub were inaccurate,
| but given the level of hands-on knowledge and expertise in the
| audience, it was very well received.
| BMc2020 wrote:
| My only complaint was one of my favorite lines from the book did
| not make it into the movie, where Captain Ramius says 'there is
| enough chemical energy in the rocket fuel to melt the submarine'.
| 100k wrote:
| If you like this movie, I recommend Jamelle Bouie and John Ganz's
| podcast "Unclear and Present Danger" (the name is a riff on
| Clancy as well) which covers the political and military thrillers
| of the 1990s and how they dealt with the United States' changing
| place in the world after the end of the Cold War.
|
| They have done two episodes on this movie:
|
| https://jamellebouie.net/unclear-and-present-danger/2021/10/...
|
| https://jamellebouie.net/unclear-and-present-danger/2022/10/...
| isx726552 wrote:
| Really curious to know what the test shots from Boss Films looked
| like!
|
| Richard Edlund's team's work on various films of the 80s was
| impeccable (including Ghostbusters, Die Hard, Big Trouble in
| Little China, and more). They were the inheritor of the crown of
| high quality 65mm VFX after Douglas Trumbull quit the business
| (the pinnacle of his work being films like Blade Runner and
| Brainstorm).
|
| I have to wonder what was wrong that caused the last minute
| switch to ILM!
| nopelynopington wrote:
| Is there any real life basis for the plot of Hunt For Red
| October? Did any Soviet subs ever defect?
| radicaldreamer wrote:
| The shot in this movie where you see the nuclear missile bays was
| incredible.
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