[HN Gopher] Lessons from open source in the Mexican government
       ___________________________________________________________________
        
       Lessons from open source in the Mexican government
        
       Author : signa11
       Score  : 265 points
       Date   : 2025-04-04 06:55 UTC (2 days ago)
        
 (HTM) web link (lwn.net)
 (TXT) w3m dump (lwn.net)
        
       | timewizard wrote:
       | > The team took advantage of the shift to restructure the
       | database "because we found that our storage provider was being a
       | little bit naughty", storing the data three or four times in
       | order to charge more money.
       | 
       | This is the worst kind of graft and should result in criminal
       | charges. The software development industry is still in a nascent
       | stage and our tools are great but professional standards are
       | still undeveloped.
       | 
       | > Technology is often seen as the problem, he said, but he
       | generally found that the problems were due to using obsolete
       | technology and a lack of knowledge about the data being handled.
       | There is often no documentation of the data and its structure,
       | coupled with no understanding of that by the people in charge of
       | it. Poor leadership in the agencies is another barrier; there
       | needs to be a champion for a change of this sort, who understands
       | what needs to be done and properly assigns people to work on it.
       | 
       | Oh. Well. Precisely.
        
         | vlovich123 wrote:
         | I don't disagree with the other points but:
         | 
         | > storing the data three or four times in order to charge more
         | money.
         | 
         | Given that they're not disputing that it was being stored that
         | many times, then it's plausible the vendor was using
         | replication as their error recovery strategy which isn't an
         | invalid choice. Erasure coding is a more difficult alternative
         | to implement. This is too short a sentence with too little
         | detail to draw any actual conclusion from. Heck, maybe the
         | software even had a configuration option but there was no in-
         | house expertise to configure it properly.
        
       | wjholden wrote:
       | This was a pleasant and encouraging article to read.
       | 
       | I do think that open source is slowly growing in traditional
       | enterprises, although I think recent interest in cloud computing
       | and artificial intelligence has pushed a lot of software
       | contracting out of the company. Open source migrations might
       | become harder in the future when the enterprise no longer
       | controls their own databases and models.
        
       | bruce511 wrote:
       | The article uses the phrase "no brainer" but then explains why it
       | very much requires brainer when making IT decisions.
       | 
       | License costs are a factor, yes, but they are not the only cost,
       | and in most cases not the significant one.
       | 
       | In some cases the offerings are similar enough that it moves the
       | needle. PostgreSQL for example is a good candidate- Oracle is
       | expensive, and the number of people interacting with it is
       | limited. Plus the fundamentals of Oracle and PostgreSQL are more-
       | or-less the same.
       | 
       | On the other extreme the cost of training and support dwarfs the
       | license cost. If all staff come with knowing how to use say
       | Windows and Excel,but require training and support for say Linux
       | Desktop and Libre Office, then the "free" thing costs more.
       | 
       | It's no accident that OSS has done better on the backend than the
       | front end.
       | 
       | Success for OSS means putting the right product in the right
       | place, taking all things (not just license cost) into account.
       | 
       | (Aside: corruption is a red herring, corrupt officials and
       | companies can be corrupt regardless of software license.)
        
         | thaumasiotes wrote:
         | > uses the phrase "no brainer" but then explains why it very
         | much requires brainer
         | 
         | The structure of the phrase is [[no brain]er], not [no
         | [brainer]].
         | 
         | See https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/-er , sense 7/8.
        
           | hiddencost wrote:
           | It's word play.
        
           | spit2wind wrote:
           | Exactly, that's the whole point of the article. The second
           | sentence says that,
           | 
           | > While open source seems like a "no-brainer", it turns out
           | that governments can be surprisingly resistant to using FOSS
           | for a variety of reasons.
        
             | thaumasiotes wrote:
             | Did you mean to reply to someone else?
        
         | looofooo0 wrote:
         | "Third, there are often large costs to users from switching
         | technologies, which leads to lock-in. Such markets may remain
         | very profitable, even where (incompatible) competitors are very
         | cheap to produce. In fact, one of the main results of network
         | economic theory is that the net present value of the customer
         | base should equal the total costs of their switching their
         | business to a com- petitor [19]."
        
           | rvba wrote:
           | All this talk about having to train users... then the
           | companies change the interfaces so much that even power users
           | get confused.
           | 
           | And why? Because the designers need to prove that they so
           | something?
        
             | motorest wrote:
             | > All this talk about having to train users... then the
             | companies change the interfaces so much that even power
             | users get confused.
             | 
             | I don't think this is a realistic assessment of the
             | problem. Windows 11 slremains very much recognizable since
             | the Windows 7 days, and the transition from Windows 10 to
             | Windows 11 was seamless. Moreso with walled gardens like
             | macOS.
             | 
             | In the meantime you can't sneeze in the direction of a
             | mainstream windows manager for Linux without it introducing
             | radical changes, not to mention how all distros are heavily
             | fragmented and sometimes even customized.
        
         | orthoxerox wrote:
         | And liability, as mentioned in the OP, is a big issue. When you
         | find a bug in Oracle that kills your DBMS, you open a ticket
         | and Oracle _has_ to provide a fix (or at least a workaround)
         | based on the SLA.
         | 
         | Postgres developers, as the license says, have NO OBLIGATIONS
         | TO PROVIDE MAINTENANCE, SUPPORT, UPDATES, ENHANCEMENTS, OR
         | MODIFICATIONS. This means you have to do one of three options:
         | - hire Postgres experts into every ministry. Not very
         | efficient.       - create a single government agency that
         | provides support to the rest of the government. Might easily
         | lose efficiency, as any other bureaucracy       - create a
         | commercial support provider that has to earn money by selling
         | Postgres support to private enterprises. Again, there's a risk
         | that it will start charging the highest possible price for its
         | services.
        
           | szszrk wrote:
           | > you open a ticket and Oracle has to provide a fix (or at
           | least a workaround) based on the SLA.
           | 
           | Have you received reasonable help in reasonable time that
           | way? How big was the investment on your company's side to
           | make that happen?
           | 
           | It was a meme on every DBA team I worked with.
        
             | orthoxerox wrote:
             | Yes, we have received reasonable and timely help when a
             | wild ORA-600 appeared (with an Oracle engineer arriving on
             | site to diagnose and apply the fix), but you are right, we
             | had an 80-core POWER machine running this database.
        
             | zdragnar wrote:
             | The reality matters far less than the vaguely worded
             | promises CEOs think they hear when they're sold on
             | switching to Oracle.
        
             | ripe wrote:
             | "Oracle has to provide a fix" also means that you can tell
             | your boss that you're doing your best and it's up to Oracle
             | now.
             | 
             | It's not just about fixing the problem, but about
             | protecting your own career. "No one ever got fired for
             | buying IBM".
        
               | szszrk wrote:
               | That's an obvious, typical mechanism. A sad one.
               | 
               | Now circle back to the main thread - you invest some
               | multi-million budget yearly to have support, but you get
               | just an excuse.
               | 
               | People are expensive, but not "oracle expensive". Plus
               | there are many smaller shops that sell support for
               | opensource databases, I'd you don't want to hire senior
               | people.
        
           | kergonath wrote:
           | > as any other bureaucracy
           | 
           | It is not bureaucracy vs magical efficiency. There is the
           | same issue in any large organisation, even corporations. In
           | practice I don't think it would be as bad as you suggest.
           | Having an agency focused on providing support instead of
           | sending money to shareholders also limits other kinds of
           | inefficiencies.
           | 
           | > Again, there's a risk that it will start charging the
           | highest possible price for its services.
           | 
           | That is exactly the situation we're in, where governments are
           | tied and dependent on single providers (be it Microsoft,
           | Oracle, SAP, or others). This solution would create
           | competition opportunities by opening a market, it does not
           | need to be a monopoly.
        
           | MaxBarraclough wrote:
           | You missed one: hire one of the many existing providers of
           | Postgres support services. Postgres have a big list of these
           | providers. [0]
           | 
           | I can't comment on how well they perform in practice compared
           | to the conventional monopolised support model that closed-
           | source software tends to offer - perhaps better, perhaps
           | worse - but at least in principle, the solution is there.
           | 
           | [0] https://www.postgresql.org/support/professional_support/
        
           | kristofferg wrote:
           | " create a single government agency that provides support to
           | the rest of the government. Might easily lose efficiency, as
           | any other bureaucracy". As opposed to huge corporations that
           | are known to be the pinnacle of efficiency...
        
           | crote wrote:
           | > Again, there's a risk that it will start charging the
           | highest possible price for its services.
           | 
           | So you switch to a different commercial service provider,
           | problem solved. The software is open source, they can't lock
           | you down in a predatory contract. Worst-case scenario, you
           | can always choose to fork it yourself.
        
           | hyperman1 wrote:
           | I actually managed to get Oracle to fix a bug once. This in
           | quite a big organization, with a huge amount of money going
           | to oracle. I could explain them exactly what was wrong, how
           | to fix it, and still they denied the very existence of the
           | bug (and cited the expensive half-working workaround other
           | companies used at the same time). Then they ignored what I
           | told them and fixed it in a way that did not fix it. Then
           | they fixed it, and did not allow us to use the fix until it
           | was officialized in a real service pack.
           | 
           | The whole process took multiple months, reading all contracts
           | I couldget my hands on, answering the phone at 3AM, a lot of
           | patience, and treating Oracle as a student who was 2 weeks
           | late with their homework. After that, all oraclies at the
           | organization were completely awed because I was the first
           | person ever who managed to get a usefull new patch out of
           | oracle's service.
           | 
           | If you want results, get Postgres. If you want someone to
           | blame, get Oracle.
        
             | thewebguyd wrote:
             | > If you want results, get Postgres. If you want someone to
             | blame, get Oracle.
             | 
             | It's the someone to blame part that's important in big
             | corporate bureaucracy. It's being able to tell your boss
             | "We've done everything we can, it's in Oracle's hands now"
             | limits your own liability vs. "We need to fix this
             | ourselves, and haven't solved the problem yet."
        
               | grg0 wrote:
               | Yeah, the difference between being a child and being a
               | man.
        
             | forinti wrote:
             | > If you want results, get Postgres. If you want someone to
             | blame, get Oracle.
             | 
             | I've twice offered fixes to Oracle (didn't even get a thank
             | you); countless times I've had to find workarounds; and
             | I've lost endless hours working with support to get things
             | fixed.
             | 
             | I have no respect for Oracle software. It gives me nothing
             | but headaches. I can't really just blame Oracle, because I
             | have to keep my organisation working. I just wish I could
             | get rid of it.
        
         | croes wrote:
         | And then MS makes changed like the ribbons for MA Office and
         | you start training again.
         | 
         | Most people don't know much about the OS or Office, so you have
         | to train them anyway for the companies use cases and non
         | standard programs.
         | 
         | MS just seems convenient, but isn't. In large companies every
         | update brings problems.
         | 
         | Things like Teams change the UI quite often which leads to
         | support questions.
         | 
         | So for me the training costs don't differ that much.
        
           | nyclounge wrote:
           | It is much more economical to invest in local open source
           | people to take care of the tech need than big corp. Big corp
           | are notorious unreliable over long period of time, their
           | incentives are NOT aligned with the customers, only with
           | profit and/or 3 letter agencies.
        
           | sanex wrote:
           | I still hate the new ribbon.
        
         | cjfd wrote:
         | "corruption is a red herring, corrupt officials and companies
         | can be corrupt regardless of software license."
         | 
         | Corruption implies that somebody is making enough money to pay
         | bribes. Therefore, corruption will naturally be to the
         | advantage of those that make the most money from the least
         | quality offering.
        
           | bruce511 wrote:
           | Not really. The company's not really paying bribes out of
           | their own money though. They're paying it out of the revenue
           | flow from that sale.
           | 
           | In other words "give me this govt contract and I'll route n%
           | of it back to you". n% has to be "reasonable" or there's no
           | commercial point in offering the bribe to begin with.
           | 
           | If there's a cash-flow issue (you gotta pay the bribe
           | _before_ getting the contract) then I guess it favors deep
           | pockets.
        
         | Lutger wrote:
         | Training is another cash cow from big tech, on many levels. It
         | is a bonus for resellers and partners, binding the ecosystem
         | together. And the maze of certifications that expire every
         | other year or so makes big tech corps even more money, and has
         | everybody invested. It is also a useful sales tool, because
         | they don't cost much and can be thrown in as a discount. You
         | can also achieve a kind of vendor lock in on the career skills
         | more easily with certifications. Legions of Microsoft
         | technicians are pretty much stuck in the ecosystem, because if
         | they switch their certs and experience don't mean anything
         | anymore. Not everybody has the technical chops to switch
         | ecosystem every year. Even more pressure to not move to open
         | source (or another vendor).
         | 
         | If you think Microsoft makes it sales because its buyers are
         | putting the right product in the right place, then you haven't
         | seen a lot of Microsoft sales. This is absolutely not how it
         | works. And it doesn't have a lot to do with corruption either.
         | 
         | The people making the decision to buy an IT product are often
         | not its users, and often not that much concerned with making
         | the best short/mid/long term deal in the interest of the
         | business. They are very much concerned in making the best deal
         | for their own careers, and as these are the people who buy the
         | thing some companies have competently specialized in optimizing
         | sales given that fact. Oracle has a reputation for this, and
         | Microsoft as well, but all big tech does it (just some do it
         | better than others). Of course, there's some nuance, you can't
         | get away with it if your product doesn't work.
        
           | hyperman1 wrote:
           | For a lot of software in megacorps, it makes more sense if
           | you look at 'trained in X' as a kind of magic spell that has
           | no real relation with the ability to do a job.
           | 
           | If the end user says: I have no training in X, that mostly
           | means they don't want to work with X or don't want to accept
           | extra workload related to X. The company then provides
           | training in X, another magic spell meaning money was spent so
           | the company officially did something, and the excuse about
           | not being trained won't work anymore. Blame has now been
           | shifted from the company to the worker or even the end user.
           | So training being expensive has better optics.
           | 
           | Big tools like MSOffice have the ability to be put in hiring
           | contracts: Everyone is assumed to know how to use it, so the
           | company is allowed to deny the no training excuse without
           | spending money.
           | 
           | Actual training for the whole company is more like a
           | networking event, and if you ignore the trainer and read the
           | manual or watch some youtube, you may actually learn what
           | you're supposed to. Once in a while, you get a trainer who
           | knows what they are talking about. But all that is secondary.
        
             | thewebguyd wrote:
             | > If the end user says: I have no training in X, that
             | mostly means they don't want to work with X or don't want
             | to accept extra workload related to X.
             | 
             | This has largely been my experience working in IT as well.
             | I think folks in the tech world take for granted how
             | "normal" continuous learning is for us, and how undesirable
             | it is for others in the workplace. Your average office
             | drone very much does not want to learn something new. They
             | want to use what they always have, and keep the same
             | workload.
             | 
             | Even just attempting a switch from Windows to macOS, when
             | their workflow is almost entirely a web browser, damn near
             | caused a full on worker revolt at one organization I worked
             | at. Training didn't fix it, because the desire to learn
             | wasn't there in the first place.
             | 
             | That's the kind of inertia that needs to be overcome for
             | something like open source adoption at the end-user level.
             | It's comparatively simple for the back-end to transition,
             | but without an already willing user-base, the front-end
             | average office worker is not going to achieve the same
             | level of productivity for a really long time.
        
               | tsss wrote:
               | I don't want to learn something new either but you have
               | no choice if you want to stay employed.
        
             | aleph_minus_one wrote:
             | > Big tools like MSOffice have the ability to be put in
             | hiring contracts: Everyone is assumed to know how to use
             | it, so the company is allowed to deny the no training
             | excuse without spending money.
             | 
             | I would claim that if you haven't worked in the finance or
             | insurance industry (or some related industry) for quite
             | some time, you very likely don't know how to use Excel (I
             | have a feeling that a similar points holds for Word and
             | Powerpoint with respect to some industries, but I think for
             | these applications this phenomenon is a little bit less
             | pronounced).
             | 
             | Indeed, I'd claim that most books about how to use Excel
             | are simply crap. To just give you a glimpse how to use
             | Excel, here some internet classic on this topic:
             | You Suck at Excel - Joel Spolsky
             | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JxBg4sMusIg
             | 
             | Really understanding Excel is life task, similar to really
             | understanding modern C++.
        
       | huijzer wrote:
       | I found this part interesting:
       | 
       | > Gonzalez Waite said that all of the large proprietary software
       | companies ""are big bullies"". He has been called into the US
       | embassy and been threatened because Mexico was using technology
       | that was not from the US; those threats were dialed back when he
       | explained that the government also used software and services
       | from Amazon, Google, and Microsoft. Various companies use the US
       | government to bully other countries, but they also use license
       | audits as a reaction to projects that move to open-source
       | software. Every time a successful switch happened, ""six months
       | later there was an audit""; having the right legal team helps
       | defend against those tactics, he said.
       | 
       | It matches also what I heard from someone working for the Dutch
       | government. He said that whenever they needed a new software
       | system, that Microsoft would send multiple consultants for "free"
       | which all could "help" the transition to a new service from
       | Microsoft.
        
         | pjmlp wrote:
         | Meanwhile, all major OEMs, and OS vendors routinely use BSDs
         | and Linux distributions in some form, yet it is the same
         | business as usual as 30 years ago, reverse engineering hardware
         | support.
         | 
         | The only "Linux Desktop" ready desktops and laptops to find at
         | local shopping mall for normies are Android and ChromeOS
         | devices, likewise in out-of-the-box experience for hardware
         | support for peripherals.
        
           | zabzonk wrote:
           | Do you think that calling people "normies" is at all useful?
        
             | pjmlp wrote:
             | It is to me.
        
             | rikafurude21 wrote:
             | normie is just online slang for normal people
        
             | cheschire wrote:
             | You're right let's call them muggles, which has the added
             | double-elitism of "I understood that reference" as well as
             | the in-story elitism of the wizards. /s
        
             | HPsquared wrote:
             | Being called normal is hardly a slur.
        
           | cbmask wrote:
           | The government could order Linux ready hardware in bulk.
           | Also, 30 years ago, normies were able to handle DOS, which is
           | perfectly sufficient for bureaucratic applications. They'd be
           | able to do so after two weeks of training even nowadays.
        
             | motorest wrote:
             | > Also, 30 years ago, normies were able to handle DOS (...)
             | 
             | "Normies" from the 80s do not represent the dissemination
             | of personal computing we experienced in the last 10-15
             | years. So far we have one or two generations whose
             | experience with personal computing is limited to
             | downloading apps from app stores and ,at best, check
             | webpages. That is very far from what people used DOS for.
        
               | redeeman wrote:
               | unless you're saying they are significantly stupider,
               | they can learn
        
             | WorldPeas wrote:
             | While my DMV and TSA use some kind of green on black
             | terminal system, I think this is still kind of optimistic
             | for work more complex than sequential entry. Maybe
             | something like q4os could be employed for a stable GUI.
             | From what I've seen in government work, groupware and chat
             | systems are a definite force multiplier over a locked dumb
             | terminal
        
             | zzzeek wrote:
             | people who used computers in the 80's/early 90's were not
             | "normies" at all
        
         | vollbrecht wrote:
         | There was an interesting story with the LiMux[1] ( Linux &
         | Munich) project. The local government in Munich used it for
         | quite some time. But than Microsoft came and installed there
         | German Headquarters in Munich. With that new headquarter and
         | enough lobbying, LiMux was forced out by the then new
         | government just the moment it got "successful".
         | 
         | [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LiMux
        
           | mschuster91 wrote:
           | LiMux always gets mentioned in such topics... it's an
           | interesting story and as I've actually worked there early in
           | my career I've written a few times about what the actual
           | issues were and why it failed - you might read through [1].
           | 
           | tl;dr: LiMux didn't just fail due to politics (although
           | politics _did_ play a large role and I will forever dislike
           | Dieter Reiter for a multitude of reasons, LiMux being among
           | them), it was set up for failure from the beginning, mostly
           | budget related.
           | 
           | https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que.
           | ..
        
         | calewis wrote:
         | I worked for a very old school manufacturing company based in
         | Switzerland. We wanted to roll our own IoT platform for sensors
         | in the factory. We spoke to MS, what they had was a load of
         | garbage, so we decided to carry on as we were. I later found
         | out that the MS CEO called the CEO of this company and from
         | then on we were fighting every day as to why we weren't using
         | MS. This was a private company, not even a big spend, yet they
         | got the CEO involved on sales calls? That's when I realised how
         | corrupt it was an org.
        
           | noisy_boy wrote:
           | > We spoke to MS,
           | 
           | They are out to lock you in to ensure sustained cashflow, not
           | solve your problem in the most impartial and cost efficient
           | way for you.
        
           | speed_spread wrote:
           | Small companies matter because the transition to non
           | proprietary tech is potentially simpler and thus more likely
           | to succeed. Add a few success stories from small players in
           | the same market, making them more competitive might raise the
           | attention of bigger players.
        
             | sitkack wrote:
             | This is absolutely the reason. This is why startups exist,
             | new things are easier in small orgs for a variety of
             | reasons.
        
           | WillAdams wrote:
           | Classic example of this was when Dell use WebObjects for
           | their shop-front --- Microsoft was so put out that they
           | threatened their licensing deals.
        
           | dguest wrote:
           | CERN (also in CH) made a half-effort to switch away from MS a
           | few years ago. MS had started charging them a crazy amount of
           | money. They got a few people working on it and even switched
           | a few of the back end services. And actually the open source
           | stuff worked amazingly well!
           | 
           | Then like a year later they doubled down on MS products
           | (right after a new IT head came in). The IT people I spoke to
           | had no idea why this happened but no one seemed to think
           | going back to MS was a good idea.
           | 
           | Discussed more here
           | https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41717607
        
             | anthk wrote:
             | They even published Scientific Linux, a CentOS like RHEL
             | fork.
        
               | dguest wrote:
               | The CERN experiments and CERN IT have contributed quite a
               | lot to open source. Part of this is necessity: when your
               | experiment draws thousands of collaborators from hundreds
               | of institutions and dozens of different funding agencies
               | it's really difficult to deal with licensing fees.
               | 
               | Scientific Linux is discontinued, though. A few
               | experiments went to CentOS and (when that was moved to
               | CentOS Stream) to AlmaLinux. But practically speaking the
               | OS the experiments are using is a RHEL-like base with
               | almost everything important overwritten via
               | LD_LIBRARY_PATH, PATH, etc. and pointing to a fuse-
               | mounted file system called cvmfs
               | 
               | https://github.com/cvmfs/cvmfs
               | 
               | For better or worse this allows O(weekly) releases that
               | change what would normally be core components of the OS.
               | 
               | It's kind of weird how all the interesting stuff at CERN
               | is linux and open source, and then all the IT
               | infrastructure is outdated MS services and Windows.
        
             | ahartmetz wrote:
             | When I was involved in high-energy physics (doing some
             | pretty pedestrian software stuff), CERN switched from its
             | beloved Hypernews system to something based on MS
             | Sharepoint. Everybody was baffled about why they would do
             | that and hated the new system.
             | 
             | It seems like Hypernews was only turned off in 2021, much
             | much later than planned, but they did do it.
        
         | Spooky23 wrote:
         | Most of these companies are absolutely total bullies. They'll
         | go to your board, CEO, governor, senator, mayor, audit firm,
         | wherever. Punish your friends and elevate your enemies.
         | 
         | A big part of being a CIO or CTO is having and maintaining
         | relationships with key suppliers. This is especially true with
         | SaaS/IaaS, where your business is valued based on whatever
         | bullshit churn metrics the company cooked up. Your $2M deal may
         | have way bigger impact on a Sales VP bonus than you think. You
         | have to be a different kind of asshole to maintain control of
         | these guys than in the old software world.
        
       | looofooo0 wrote:
       | Economic network theory:
       | 
       | "Economists who have studied the software industry concluded that
       | the value of a software business is about equal to the total
       | costs of its customers switching out to the competition; both are
       | equal to the net present value of future payments from the
       | customers to the software vendor. This means that an incumbent in
       | a maturing market, such as Microsoft with its Office product, can
       | grow faster than the market only if it can find ways to lock in
       | its customers more tightly. There are some ifs and buts that
       | hedge this theory around, but the basic idea is well known to
       | software industry executives. This explains Bill G's comment that
       | `We came at this thinking about music, but then we realized that
       | e-mail and documents were far more interesting domains'."
        
         | lifeisstillgood wrote:
         | Ohhh - do you have a link ? That is interesting...
         | 
         | Also it strikes me that as a developer my investment of
         | learning is more in code d So it's easier to switch
        
           | looofooo0 wrote:
           | https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/archive/rja14/tcpa-faq.html
           | 
           | Quote from here and the idea is from this https://www.researc
           | hgate.net/publication/200167344_Informati...
        
             | masfuerte wrote:
             | This is tangential, but seeing a Ross Anderson article
             | reminded me...
             | 
             | Does anyone know if <https://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/>
             | is permanently gone or just temporarily down?
        
               | looofooo0 wrote:
               | He died last year, so it is gone I guess.
        
               | ajb wrote:
               | He did, but the light blue touchpaper website is still up
               | for me. It is the collective blog of the security group
               | at Cambridge university, so I would guess likely to
               | continue.
        
       | caycep wrote:
       | I live near the Pasadena/LA area and wish I had heard of SCALE22x
       | earlier!
        
       | raffraffraff wrote:
       | > The team took advantage of the shift to restructure the
       | database ""because we found that our storage provider was being a
       | little bit naughty"", storing the data three or four times in
       | order to charge more money
       | 
       | Uh... Without knowing the exact details, my first thought that "a
       | little knowledge is a dangerous thing"
        
       | pessimizer wrote:
       | > It turned out that various contracted companies had corruptly
       | put the software licenses they bought for the government into
       | their own names, leading to a lock-in for their services.
       | 
       | This is a dirty trick I ran into in [US] state procurement, in a
       | state known for widespread corruption. It's basically a no-show
       | job where you just hold a bunch of long-term contracts for the
       | state, and claim a monthly "support" fee for doing it. Even
       | worse, you got to negotiate those contracts (and set up your
       | kickbacks or self-dealing.) Bonus points for needing to call the
       | contractor in order to have the contractor call support, and the
       | contractor taking a fee for doing it.
       | 
       | Endless avenues for corruption with a setup like this.
        
       | pritambarhate wrote:
       | I think at this moment all governments should start funding the
       | open source foundations so that the foundations can train as well
       | as retain good programming talent to keep the important open
       | source software maintained. I think it will serve better in the
       | long term to the government departments as well as the citizens.
        
       | specialist wrote:
       | My slogan for using FOSS for govt is "citizen owned software".
       | 
       | At one time, I anticipated the rise of FOSS consortiums.
       | Jurisdictions with similar needs would join together to share the
       | cost and risks.
       | 
       | Canada, Mexico, USA each have 1,000s of juridictions. Surely at
       | any one time there's a handful planning a technology refresh of
       | some domain.
       | 
       | One easy example I know of is property tax administration.
       | There's a bunch of counties of similar size all doing the same
       | thing, but all running off in separate directions. Vendor options
       | are complicated, expensive, and have lock-in. Surely it'd be
       | beneficial to pool their resources and own their stack?
       | 
       | Another is election administration. US counties used to do all it
       | themselves. Candidate filings, voter registration, poll books,
       | yadda, yadda. Now it's all outsourced. Lower service for higher
       | prices. (The "certification" process was captured, serving to
       | protect incumbents. Natch.)
       | 
       | Any way.
       | 
       | I was a grunt for a member of a consortium FOSS project. It was
       | awful. "The Logic of Collective Action" explained a great deal of
       | the pathology. Also, Byran Cantrill's quote (wrt Open Solaris)
       | about "having the freedom but not the power to fork" was spot on
       | for our project.
       | 
       | Any way.
       | 
       | Does any one have examples or game plan or vision for realizing
       | more FOSS in govt? I'm not quite ready to give up on the dream.
        
       | firejake308 wrote:
       | > Another part of the project was to move away from Oracle and to
       | PostgreSQL. That change led to various threats and intimidation
       | from the company when it learned of the change, Gonzalez Waite
       | said. "They told me that the entire passport system of the
       | country was going to fall down" and that it would be his fault
       | that Mexico could not let anyone into or out of the country.
       | "Guess what? That didn't happen."
       | 
       | Larry Ellison, never change. It'll be interesting to see how they
       | ruin TikTok if their bid succeeds.
        
         | grg0 wrote:
         | The cockroach is one of the most resilient species. Some of
         | them are even resistant to fire and can survive for several
         | minutes without oxygen.
        
       | grg0 wrote:
       | Damn. I was aware US technology companies were parasitic, but
       | this article really sheds light on the extent of it. No wonder
       | they hate free software so much.
        
       | ptsd_dalmatian wrote:
       | Question I ask my self a lot, how much my government spends a
       | month for Microsoft stuff. This money could go to education and
       | health care, which both are in terrible shape. Friend who works
       | for government tell me that it's almost impossible to find out
       | this number. That's how "transparent" it is.
        
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