[HN Gopher] How Airbnb measures listing lifetime value
___________________________________________________________________
How Airbnb measures listing lifetime value
Author : benocodes
Score : 85 points
Date : 2025-04-01 11:54 UTC (4 days ago)
(HTM) web link (medium.com)
(TXT) w3m dump (medium.com)
| epolanski wrote:
| Why do they publish blogposts on such a lame paywalled website
| though...
| josefritzishere wrote:
| Seems pretty consistent with their revenue model.
| tomhow wrote:
| Is this post paywalled for you?
|
| Or is there just a signup/login banner that you can dismiss?
|
| If there's a paywall we'll post a workaround at the top.
| SSLy wrote:
| My User Agent goes around the paywall easily.
| JohnScolaro wrote:
| I was wondering that too!
|
| Surely Airbnb - a company that runs a website - has the
| capability to put a text post on their own website. Then they'd
| own the content, and people looking for it could find it
| easier? It's not a revolutionary concept either, Facebook has
| one:
|
| https://engineering.fb.com/
|
| Wait, Airbnb _already has one_?
|
| https://airbnb.io/
|
| Genuinely confusing.
| echelon wrote:
| > Why
|
| Distribution.
|
| The reason for this blog post is "recruit engineers". Not
| every engineer is going to visit blog.airbnb.com, but
| presumably a lot of them are already on Medium.
|
| They even close the article with,
|
| > We continue to solve interesting problems around LTV every
| day (and as more insights come up, we'll keep sharing them on
| our blog). Can you see yourself making an impact here? If so,
| we encourage you to explore the open roles on our team.
|
| These blogs are always about recruiting.
| philipwhiuk wrote:
| Why would I pay for a paywall to read a job ad?
| merricksb wrote:
| There's no paywall. It's totally free to read. The popup
| is just a prompt to join/sign into Medium but you can
| close it.
| esafak wrote:
| I would have liked more discussion on handling uncertainty; how
| big is it, how well calibrated is it, how are they approaching
| variance reduction, how do they reduce the predictive
| distribution into decisions, etc. And no discussion of causal
| inference in the marketing section.
| maxrmk wrote:
| I feel like this is missing a really important factor: how likely
| are guests to use airbnb again after staying at a listing?
|
| A listing could look great online and receive a lot of bookings
| (so high LTV), but ultimately drive users away from the platform.
|
| A certain ad platform I worked on cared a lot about this -
| offensive ads could get you to quit the site altogether. You
| might want to count every ad as positive for the company since
| you make money, but some might actually be negative expected
| value! As a side note, I think this is a really undermeasured
| problem. There are many sites I won't use because the ads are so
| overwhelming or are often offensive.
| MajimasEyepatch wrote:
| In the case of Airbnb, wouldn't that show up in the listing's
| reviews, requests for refunds, etc. and ultimately drive down
| the listing's LTV? Nobody leaves reviews on an ad, and I
| imagine that very few users report inappropriate ads, so you
| can only measure that indirectly. But if somebody books an
| Airbnb and has a bad experience, they are much more likely to
| give you direct feedback about it.
| maxrmk wrote:
| I think it could show up in those other places, but probably
| isn't fully captured?
|
| Imagine an airbnb that's great for most guests but absolutely
| terrible for 1 in every 5, so bad that they quit airbnb.
| Maybe it's next to a music venue, so every once in a while
| it's very loud.
|
| It's possible it could maintain a decent average star rating
| and LTV as described in the article but actually have
| negative (real) lifetime value for airbnb if the 1 in five
| that they lose would have spent a lot of money on the
| platform otherwise.
| Nextgrid wrote:
| Bad reviews are often moderated away and refund requests are
| stonewalled (and few people know about chargebacks so that
| isn't factored in). It is easier for the platform to acquire
| guests than hosts, so the platform takes the side of hosts.
|
| Edit: at least that was the situation a couple of years ago.
| A host below now reports that the situation has changed and
| they take the side of the guests; however, either way it's
| open to abuse no matter which side they take.
|
| The issue is that in a marketplace where both sides can be
| dishonest, the only way to ensure quality is to do spot
| checks by trusted actors (aka company employees) where the
| penalties for failing such a check are dissuasive enough that
| it becomes more profitable to play by the rules.
|
| This is similar to how law enforcement is supposed to operate
| - the reason the penalty for theft (for example) is _more_
| than merely returning the stolen items is that since law
| enforcement can 't observe everyone all at once, the penalty
| needs to be enough of a deterrent to make the bad behavior
| unprofitable overall, to discourage it even in cases where
| law enforcement isn't there to witness it and enforce said
| law.
| lurk2 wrote:
| I had this experience years ago. The first place I ever rented
| in had Wi-Fi that didn't work and after about a week the water
| stopped working. I cancelled my booking through support and the
| owner called me 3 or 4 times on WhatsApp and then left me a bad
| review. The second place had a shower that didn't drain and the
| washing machine flooded the apartment one evening. The third
| place had black mold growing out of the kitchen ceiling. I
| tried to get them to waive the cleaning fee over it, but the
| owner claimed he had told me about it already and refused to do
| anything. When I left, he told me he had written me a good
| review and expected one in return. I pointed out that he had
| done nothing to remedy the mold issue and then posted my own
| review, and found that in his review he had accused me of
| bringing prostitutes and drugs into the apartment (which I did
| not).
|
| It was nominally cheaper to travel this way, but for my next
| trip I'll be staying in hotels.
| bombcar wrote:
| This is how things like Airbnb (and ebay) die - the hosts and
| sellers know all the tricks and so the buyers just leave;
| it's not worth the hassle.
| nothercastle wrote:
| The eBay experience has improved dramatically. Its far
| better than Amazon 3rd party
| munro wrote:
| No model is perfect, but some are useful. Their "baseline LTV"
| looks at the sum of listings on their platform (plus other
| features), then tries to forecast the next 365 days -- so this
| should indirectly capture people coming and going. I think
| their cannibalization model is quite clever as well.
|
| Going deeper with modeling users might yield some tighter
| estimates, but I imagine this gets estimates far closer than
| some simple accounting formula, and likely helpful for
| budgeting a year out -- but it would have been nice to have
| seen some performance metrics.
| mmasu wrote:
| I also think the cannibalization model is clever. The
| baseline model is however a bit underwhelming, as bookings
| can be misleading by themselves - you have cancellations,
| impressions, and so forth. For example if you only look at
| bookings in next 365 days, new listings will be penalized.
| But as you said no model is perfect :-)
| avidiax wrote:
| > A listing could look great online and receive a lot of
| bookings (so high LTV), but ultimately drive users away from
| the platform.
|
| I am precisely this kind of churned customer. I have personally
| booked maybe 3 AirBNB stays, and stayed with family in them on
| other occasions. The units I pick are always well-reviewed.
|
| But in the cities I've stayed in (LA, SF, Rome), the price is
| really no cheaper than a hotel, and the quality is extremely
| variable. You have to really carefully read those 5-star guest
| reviews to read between the lines.
|
| And you feel pressured not to leave a negative review, as that
| would negatively impact your ability to book in the future,
| since the hosts (I have heard) can see your average review
| score.
|
| My impression has been that AirBNB's customers are actually the
| hosts. You, the guest, are an expendable commodity. You will
| use AirBNB until you have a severe enough problem, and
| experience them siding with the host over you. Then you'll be
| churned permanently, and by force if you do a chargeback.
|
| If I were going to disrupt AirBNB, I'd offer hosts a better
| percentage with the requirement that the experience is
| standardized and high-quality. There would be an in-unit noise
| & vibration sensor, reporting directly in the app. 24 hour
| check-in and check-out. A minimum set of amenities, minimum
| WiFi speed. The bedding would be standard. Cleaning fee
| standard. Every unit subject to a surprise multi-point
| inspection at least once per year. Essentially, make it no
| worse than an average hotel, and maybe some units as good or
| better than high end hotels.
| secabeen wrote:
| > If I were going to disrupt AirBNB, I'd offer hosts a better
| percentage with the requirement that the experience is
| standardized and high-quality.
|
| This is an interesting idea, but it puts the quality level
| way above what I want to pay for. Hotels are anti-septic and
| cold. I like staying in an apartment that feels like someone
| actually lives there. I don't mind a few dust-bunnies under
| the couch, nor a little dirt behind the toilet. It's even
| better when the kitchen is fully stocked, including a
| selection of non-perishable food (think cooking oil, salt,
| pepper, maybe a bag of ground coffee and a box of pasta.)
| Sure, the sheets and towels should be freshly laundered, but
| beyond that, I don't want much.
|
| AirBNB allowed me to pay less to get a more human-feeling
| space. Hotels are like McDonalds, they are designed for the
| regular customer who wants to get that Hilton-feeling,
| regardless of if they are in Wichita or Cairo. I _want_ to
| feel like I 'm in Cairo, and if that means that I'm in a mud
| brick house with a single bathroom, no A/C, and no daily
| housekeeping that's great! AirBNB opened those worlds to us
| as travelers, in a way that hotel chains never did.
| thefounder wrote:
| I think that's more common in other parts of the world.
| (i.e. getting places that people actually live in).In
| Europe most/all of the apartments I've stayed in are
| basically business apartments (more or less).
|
| You don't feel that someone lives there because nobody
| actually lives there. It's like a long term rental
| apartment that in best case scenario someone is using as a
| savings/investment vehicle but on short term. "Worst case"
| it's part of an apart-hotel.
|
| When I travel as part of a large group(i.e. more than 3
| people) a short term apartment is great because we need a
| big affordable space (i.e. someone may sleep on the couch
| and we don't want the hotel "greetings & house keeping"
| experience) but nevertheless I don't want or expect a dirty
| place in any way, shape or form be it in Cairo or somewhere
| else. I'm pretty sure there are people living in less than
| sanitary conditions all over the world including Western
| Europe and the U.S. That doesn't mean I have interest in
| experiencing that kind of "living/sleeping".
|
| All that being said I've stopped using Airbnb years ago. It
| seems a broken system. For short term rentals/apartments
| Booking.com is the only sane choice(IMHO).
| secabeen wrote:
| > In Europe most/all of the apartments I've stayed in are
| basically business apartments (more or less). It's like a
| long term rental apartment that in best case scenario
| someone is using as a savings/investment vehicle but on
| short term.
|
| If that the only thing AirBNB offered, I would have much
| less interest.
|
| > I'm pretty sure there are people living in less than
| sanitary conditions all over the world including Western
| Europe and the U.S. That doesn't mean I have interest in
| experiencing that kind of "living/sleeping".
|
| Thankfully, AirBNB doesn't have to be all things to all
| people. As long as there are enough people like me to
| keep them afloat, they can provide a product that I am
| happy with, and you can stay at hotels that are
| immaculately clean.
|
| I do hate the way that many AirBNB hosts have made
| hosting a business, and would fully support a limit on
| the number of listings per host. People renting out a
| space in their house, or a vacation rental in a vacation
| destination that they also stay in too is fine. People
| buying 3 or more apartments to rent them out (taking them
| off the long-term rental market) is terrible, and should
| be prohibited.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| I just randomly looked at hotels.com for hotels in Cairo
| and I saw name brand hotels from American brands like
| Hilton for around $120 a night. Even high end hotels like
| the Waldorf are $284 a night (I don't care about fancy
| hotels personally). Why would I stay in a dirty Airbnb?
|
| Not that I would ever use a third party booking site like
| hotels.com either...
|
| I _want_ the place I stay at to be run professionally and
| it to be I give them money and they give me a clean place
| to stay without having to worry about my ratings,
| discrimination, etc.
|
| Especially in another country where I don't know the
| language and after taking a long flight. I wouldn't want
| to take the chance on an AirBnb.
| secabeen wrote:
| > Why would I stay in a dirty Airbnb?
|
| Because of what I described above! In summary:
|
| * Desire to have an experience and living environment I
| can't get at home.
|
| * Desire to have living space beyond 2 beds and a
| bathroom crammed into the smallest available space.
|
| * Indifference to dirt or wear and tear.
|
| Thankfully, no one is saying that AirBNB should replace
| name brand hotels, in the same way that no one thinks
| that every hotel should be a Motel 6. AirBNB/VRBO is just
| another segment of the industry, and those people who
| want to stay in an AirBNB can, just as people who want a
| Hilton can without affecting those people who want to
| stay in the Ritz-Carlton. This is the beauty of the
| market!
| ghaff wrote:
| It's not so much for a Hilton-like feeling. In most
| cases, it's because I'm looking for a predictable place
| to stay with, often, a 24 hour desk. I just don't care
| about the room most of the time so long as it's clean and
| comfortable. I'm generally not traveling for the purpose
| of staying in a hotel room. I do stay in more traditional
| B&Bs/inns though _very_ rarely somewhere that 's solely
| an Airbnb.
| crooked-v wrote:
| > Hotels are like McDonalds, they are designed for the
| regular customer who wants to get that Hilton-feeling,
| regardless of if they are in Wichita or Cairo.
|
| Stop staying at chain hotels. There are plenty of hotels
| out there that are what you're looking for, and have an
| actual business to engage with in case of issues instead of
| some anonymous lister on AirBNB.
| secabeen wrote:
| > Stop staying at chain hotels. There are plenty of
| hotels out there that are what you're looking for, and
| have an actual business to engage with in case of issues
| instead of some anonymous lister on AirBNB.
|
| That has not been my experience. It is _very_ hard to
| find a robust selection of hotels in a major city that
| has a living room and kitchen. Even when you do, in a
| part of the city you want to stay in, they are often tiny
| kitchens, with limited kitchen equipment, and where the
| cabinets are completely cleared of every food item after
| every guest. These places also have very antiseptic,
| uncomfortable furnishings. They are night and day
| different from staying in most AirBNBs.
| listenallyall wrote:
| > My impression has been that AirBNB's customers are actually
| the hosts
|
| Yes for sure. Avg # of transactions per host dwarfs avg # of
| transactions per guest. Same with revenue. A frustrated host
| who pulls a unit (often, multiple units) off the platform is
| much more detrimental than an individual customer leaving the
| platform.
| csomar wrote:
| This could also be played the other way around if the
| customers are completely churned. (ie: airbnb will lose a
| full unit with XX bookings but can also loose XX customers
| multiplied by XX Life Time Value).
| YouWhy wrote:
| The duty cycle (number of business days per year) is less
| than 1% for typical guests but around 100% for a sizeable
| chuck of hosts, and in the 20-80% range for a lot of the
| rest.
|
| Hence I expect the host LTV to be a couple of orders of
| magnitude greater to that of guests.
| gruez wrote:
| >And you feel pressured not to leave a negative review, as
| that would negatively impact your ability to book in the
| future, since the hosts (I have heard) can see your average
| review score.
|
| Source?
|
| I did a quick search and couldn't find anything to confirm
| this. Various airbnb screenshots geared towards hosts also
| don't show anything about guests' average rating.[1]
|
| [1] https://www.airbnb.co.za/resources/hosting-homes/a/know-
| more...
| soared wrote:
| Different than OP, but I've left 2 negative reviews that
| were purely factual - they were simply just deleted.
| physicsguy wrote:
| I left a negative review about mould all over the
| property and got an abusive message from the host!
| BrenBarn wrote:
| > If I were going to disrupt AirBNB, I'd offer hosts a better
| percentage with the requirement that the experience is
| standardized and high-quality.
|
| I've noticed more and more apartment rentals appearing on
| booking.com. I haven't used any of them but I wonder what the
| tradeoffs are. My impression is overall booking.com is more
| guest-friendly as their userbase has grown from people
| staying at hotels, who expect stuff like being able to cancel
| and complain about cleanliness.
| makingstuffs wrote:
| From my experience booking.com is the most guest hostile
| platform I've experienced to the point I try to actively
| avoid it. I travel A LOT and can book anything from 20 - 40
| stays per jaunt. Whenever I have encountered a problem on
| booking it has always been met with -\\_(tsu)_/- tough shit
| energy.
|
| I remember one specific incident when a hotel had
| purposefully put me in a noisy room (I saw a sheet on the
| reception desk labelling it as 'ruidosas' which means noisy
| in Spanish). I took a video of it against the receptionists
| will and ensured I got the logo of the hotel in as well.
| When I reported to booking they essentially told me to jog
| on.
|
| On the contrary, anytime I've had an issue with Airbnb they
| have sided with me and provided a refund/assisted me with
| finding better accommodation.
|
| This isn't a 'you book more with us thing', either. I have
| substantially more bookings on booking due to the
| prevalence in Asia but they literally could not care less
| chrisandchris wrote:
| I think of booking as a tool for finding a hotel. I then
| always happily book with the hotel directly.
| renewiltord wrote:
| Many people try this. I think Sonder was most recent but they
| pivoted. Blueground will do corporate apartments short term.
| I think these aren't effective against Airbnb customers tbh.
| It's not a perfect platform but the others are not as good
| because availability is key.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| If you want standardized professional places to stay while
| you travel, why not just stay in a hotel? When I go to a
| hotel (and we travel a lot), I know I'm getting a standard
| level of service and if not - especially with a chain hotel
| like one franchised by Hyatt, Hilton, Marriott etc - I can
| complain to someone at corporate and get a refund and book
| somewhere else, usually it doesn't even tags that. Just talk
| to the front desk. They don't care if you get a refund - it's
| not their money.
|
| Airbnb "hosts" treat it like their "home" and are emotionally
| invested in what should be a business transaction.
|
| This isn't to mention how many hosts are running an illegal
| AirBnb.
| mrweiner wrote:
| > My impression has been that AirBNB's customers are actually
| the hosts.
|
| Fwiw, I listened to an interview with Brian a couple of years
| back where he said that, internally and strategically, they
| call hosts "partners" and guests "customers." Which makes
| sense to me.
| listenallyall wrote:
| Good point and it affects far more than just Airbnb. I'm sure
| some companies internal ROI for app notifications is
| universally positive... but when you send me 10 app
| notifications a week for a product or service I only purchase
| occasionally, I'm uninstalling the app. Obviously I'm in the
| minority because the app still has millions of users but
| hopefully others have turned notifications off.
| maxrmk wrote:
| Yeah I think about this model weirdly often.
| Rastonbury wrote:
| I think it's pretty hard to attribute bad stays to stoppage
| of the service though unless they use reviews in a model
| which is probably the best data they have to predict this.
|
| I haven't booked an Airbnb in years, whether it be due to
| having hotel points to redeem or someone else in my party
| booking on their account or just the price differences in
| that specific city I am going to. I'm not averse to the
| service but my account is basically dormant
| eastbound wrote:
| I basically uninstall all apps between two uses of them:
| Uber, AirBnb. Even the bank, I have a problem with the
| mandatory confirmation-on-phone for the yearly stock options
| plan I use. Wouldn't want a thieve to see that app.
| ghaff wrote:
| Can't you just turn off notifications. I have _very_ few
| enabled.
| BrenBarn wrote:
| An interesting distinction is between _staying at_ a listing vs
| _booking_ it. I booked an AirBnB in Texas for the eclipse last
| year. The booking was made months ahead of time. Minutes before
| I left for the airport, the host canceled with no communication
| and didn 't respond to messages. I got a refund, but I wasn't
| able to leave a review because the stay hadn't begun.
|
| I had only used AirBnB once or twice before and was leery of
| it, but after this experience I'm unlikely to use it again. The
| inability to review the host in such a situation is pretty much
| a dealbreaker. (Note that I want to review the _host_ --- not
| the property, but the person who decided to cancel the booking
| at the last minute.)
| Winsaucerer wrote:
| We had an experience not as bad as that, but cancelling on us
| a week or two before we were due to fly (and had booked
| everything else). They wanted US to cancel, but I saw no
| advantage to us in doing so. I assume it was to maintain some
| reputation on their side. We declined.
| j4coh wrote:
| AirBnBs are as expensive as hotels now, except you have to
| clean it yourself and deal with an often insane host and their
| random rules. I am back to hotels and resorts all the time now,
| you at least know what you're going to get.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| > _There are many sites I won 't use because the ads are so
| overwhelming or are often offensive._
|
| I hate to sound like the "Do people still watch TV? I haven't
| owned a TV in 20 years." Guy. But why are you seeing ads on the
| web? Don't you use an ad blocker?
| maxrmk wrote:
| I used to use one but when I started working on ads it felt
| hypocritical. I want to support the sites that I use,
| especially those that don't paywall content. I don't work on
| ads anymore but have stuck with it.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| Most advertising these days are based on click through. If
| you aren't clicking on the ads, you aren't making them
| money.
| kreyenborgi wrote:
| Man I'm so sick of trying to find something on Airbnb only to
| discover by the time I order that the price has doubled.
|
| Airbnb these last years went from feeling fresh and adventurous
| to scammy and dubious
| ceejayoz wrote:
| Use the .com.au variant to find listings, as Australian law
| requires they list the full price, inclusive of tax and fees.
| nickjantz wrote:
| Meh, they're just complaining because it's cool to whine
| about AirBNB online these days, US based AirBNB has had this
| feature for quite awhile now.
| thundergolfer wrote:
| In New York the website recently updated to do this,
| presumably because they were forced to. They had a whole
| banner announcing it.
|
| I'm Australian and moved to New York recently-ish. It was one
| of those classic anti-consumer disappointments one
| experiences moving to the states. Glad they fixed it.
| kreyenborgi wrote:
| That's one thing, annoying but possible to work with.
|
| What I'm talking about is Dynamic Pricing. Had to look up
| what really happens: The host sets a rate-range, and Airbnb
| first gives the low price and then as you click around in the
| area they notice you're more interested so they increase it
| towards the high end of the price range (possibly also time
| of day and such signals?). Then I guess there's a slow
| cooldown.
|
| Like how a good haggle is made to give you a friendly
| relationship with the seller, this seems specifically
| designed to make people hate Airbnb and swear to never use it
| again.
| sabellito wrote:
| Use booking.com, better in every way and customer support that
| won't stonewall you.
| 9283409232 wrote:
| Booking.com is awful. Anyone can make a listing on
| Booking.com for places that don't exist. Airbnb at least
| makes an effort to verify the building is real.
| philipwhiuk wrote:
| If anything the flight bit is even worse.
| carlosjobim wrote:
| I've made thousands of reservations work booking.com, this
| does not happen.
| 9283409232 wrote:
| I guess if its never happened to you its never happened
| at all.
| ambicapter wrote:
| Thousands? Personal reservations?
| sabellito wrote:
| I have done dozens of reservations and never heard of
| anything like that.
|
| Maybe don't book places with fewer than 5 reviews? Same
| goes to airbnb or any platform that allows for anyone to
| publish a listing.
|
| On the other hand had one severe issue with a booking on
| airbnb and they essentially told me to go fuck myself.
| robocat wrote:
| The last trip to Brasil I had problems with AirBnB - both
| incorrect listings (e.g. wrong location) and listings that
| weren't actually available.
|
| I've used booking.com around the world and I can't recall
| any serious problem. When dealing with an issue, AirBnB
| error flow often sucks and booking is mostly fine.
|
| When AirBnB works out great, you can find some real magic,
| but when it fails it really sucks.
|
| I've found booking.com is usually more hotel-like and
| professional (e.g. contactable and reliable).
|
| I still use both but I'm careful to choose depending on
| perceived risks.
|
| Disclosure: long booking.com
| hintklb wrote:
| Use booking.com for discovering hotels then book direct.
| Never had issues doing that
| hankchinaski wrote:
| Booking is a total scam fake photos fake listings fake
| reviews
| AndyMcConachie wrote:
| People are getting downvoted for criticizing booking.com.
| They're a shit company and everyone who works in tech in The
| Netherlands knows it.
| izacus wrote:
| What does that have to do with their user facing
| experience?
|
| Last I heard they're also a company that actually hires
| juniors there.
| philipwhiuk wrote:
| Worse is when your booking is confirmed but then cancelled a
| week before you go, at which point all the prices are much
| higher
| sabellito wrote:
| Insane that they allow that. Maybe it's an option the host
| can set on the listing?
|
| Booking, as far as I know, straight up doesn't allow hosts to
| cancel. Recently, a host sent me a message begging me to
| cancel my booking because they really couldn't be there to
| receive me.
| marcandre wrote:
| Hosts can cancel, but they are subject to their cancelation
| penalties (according to the level they've chosen for
| guests) plus there is an automatic "review" added stating
| that "This host cancelled a booking X days in advance".
| Unless X is very big, I run away from those listings.
| sabellito wrote:
| Interesting, good to know.
| chris1993 wrote:
| Airbnb hosts are penalised if they cancel - they get
| downrated - so it's not something that hosts generally want
| to do. Far better if they can persuade a guest to cancel
| 123pie123 wrote:
| It was sometime ago (2018), but my host cancelled with 3hours
| to go
|
| I will never use AirBnB again
| aprilthird2021 wrote:
| Honestly, ABNB was good till the enshittification became too
| much. A traditional hotel is almost always better except in a
| few unique circumstances.
| huevosabio wrote:
| Mega-tangent: As a host, I feel compelled to rant about Airbnb
| whenever they come up in a discussion.
|
| The last 2 years they have _really_ moved to squeeze the hosts.
| The customer service has been demolished and they seem to have
| taken a stance of "the guest is always right". I've spent
| countless hours going through their customer service as a super
| host, so I know I have a decent amount of anecdata.
|
| My suspicion is that they found themselves with more supply than
| demand, so they are "improving the guest experience" at the
| expense of the hosts. Since they are a quasi-monopoly (depends on
| the market) it makes sense for them to prune supply in exchange
| for better guest experience, a full market approach makes less
| sense since they make money in proportion to the total amount of
| money transacted (which as a monopoly it can optimize for in the
| way a free market can't).
|
| But I think this will blowback sooner or later. The biggest value
| for an Airbnb guest is the review system that allows you to have
| some degree of certainty of what you are getting. The biggest
| value for a host is the massive global audience. But guests and
| hosts, pay a steep fee (17%!) for this. For well-reviewed, long-
| living stays (like mine :)), paying 17% is way too much to access
| this audience: the listing already has an online record that
| provides that quality assurance for the guest, and the host could
| spend that money on advertising.
|
| So that's what many of us are doing, moving to PMS + paid
| advertising / SEO to diversify on distribution channels. I think
| there's an opportunity for capturing that semi-pro host market
| and bundling them in a similar offering that 1) doesn't squeeze
| them, 2) offers a proper PMS software, and 3) charges a flat fee
| instead of a variable rate.
| barbazoo wrote:
| > paying 17% is way too much
|
| Have you considered increasing the cleaning fee to recoup some
| of that money? /s
| jeofken wrote:
| PMS as in Pantone Matching System or Premenstrual Syndrome?
|
| AirBNB can be equally frustrating for users as well. Recently
| ended up at night in a new city in northern Japan where the
| host told me the listing was at a different address, where I
| found nothing, and got only radio silence from the host. Every
| hotel room in town was occupied that night. Airbnb support,
| seemingly in far away India, told me to try contacting the
| host, and that was that.
|
| Also recently stayed at a place with a dog that shat inside due
| to the owner not taking them out; due to politeness no one had
| complained in the reviews.
|
| Also Airbnb lists one price but when booking it always ends up
| being way more with more fees added.
|
| I'm using hotels.com with a filter for "has kitchen" these
| days, which was the only reason I used Airbnb in the first
| place
| appreciatorBus wrote:
| PMS - Property Management System, aka what actual hotels use
| to manage room inventory, bookings, etc.
|
| IMO most of the things that people like about AirBnB vs
| hotels is downstream of the failed experiment of urban
| planning. If we want hotel operators willing to "spend"
| floorspace on kitchens and other niceties, then legal
| floorspace can't be scarce or special, but most of the
| current planning regime is oriented around enforcing limits
| on floorspace. Ditto for having options of places to stay
| that aren't tourist traps or commercial areas.
| ghaff wrote:
| I suppose hotels can have a few rooms with kitchens but I'm
| guessing a vanishingly few people care about kitchens when
| traveling outside of maybe a microwave and a small
| refrigerator. AirBnB that are larger (e.g. houses) can also
| be nice for groups but that's more outside of cities than
| in a city center. Hotels tend to optimize for the 90% case.
|
| Where I'm staying at the moment is a "serviced apartment"
| and does have a couple burners but that's unusual and I
| mostly stay here because I like the location in London.
| secabeen wrote:
| A large fraction of families traveling value the kitchens
| (leftovers, kid breakfasts, not having to eat restaurant
| food for every meal, when all the kids want is Kraft
| Mac&Cheese, etc.) and the common living spaces (kids go
| to bed early). I _hate_ traveling with my family and
| being stuck in a hotel room (or two!). When I 'm
| traveling alone or with just adults, I can be out all day
| and only use my hotel room for sleeping, but with a
| diverse set of ages traveling, we often hang out in the
| living room while someone naps, or my kids will be done
| with touristing by 3pm and we need somewhere to be until
| dinnertime.
|
| You see this in vacation destinations like Hawaii and Ski
| towns; there is a significant fraction of accommodations
| that are Condos, because you need a place to hang. AirBNB
| brought that to urban areas by sub-letting apartments,
| when hotel operators only provided maximally-dense
| sleeping-focused options; multi-bedroom hotel rooms with
| living rooms and kitchens largely did not exist in major
| city centers.
| ghaff wrote:
| My point was that this is a minority preference in most
| paces.
| appreciatorBus wrote:
| If it truly is a minority preference, then we need a way
| to square that with all the people saying they book
| AirBnB's instead of hotels because of the kitchens. :)
| toast0 wrote:
| The people who don't need kitchens and just book hotels
| don't say anything because their needs are met.
|
| There are also some hotels with kitchens. Usually they
| have 'Suites' in their name. I stay at one most holiday
| seasons, we go and visit my folks and want to have a
| place where my family can cook without taking over my
| parents' kitchen.
|
| I've stayed places with vrbo, which is pretty similar to
| airbnb, but older. It's most convenient IMHO if you want
| more than two bedrooms for a group with shared space, or
| you're going somewhere without many hotels.
| secabeen wrote:
| > There are also some hotels with kitchens. Usually they
| have 'Suites' in their name. I stay at one most holiday
| seasons, we go and visit my folks and want to have a
| place where my family can cook without taking over my
| parents' kitchen.
|
| These are okay, but they still have the antiseptic,
| overly-clean feeling of a space optimized for
| housekeeping. They will usually have a small couch or
| two, and maybe a table for 4. I have never seen one with
| a full dining room with table for 6; a fully stocked
| kitchen that includes non-perishable food staples, or any
| outdoor space. These things are common in AirBNB rentals,
| often at the same or similar price to nearby hotels.
|
| AirBNB and VRBO absolutely opened a new market of
| accommodations compared to what was available before.
| These options may or may not be for the previous
| commenters, but it's silly to state universally that you
| can or should stay in a hotel instead. It's like saying
| "I love to ride my bike", and the reply being "you know
| you could ride a scooter to your destination, or drive a
| car."
| ghaff wrote:
| I don't see anyone arguing that you _shouldn 't_ stay in
| an Airbnb or Vrbo. But a lot of us with more routine
| needs just want to plan to be able to checkin at any
| time, leave our luggage for a late departure, have a
| fairly predictable experience, etc. for our typical hotel
| stay.
| appreciatorBus wrote:
| The argument was never about what anyone individual
| should or should not do, it was about the idea that the
| limitations of the hotel format are more driven by urban
| planning and local politics - striving to keep buildings
| as small as possible, concentrating all non-house
| buildings in small slips of land, etc. - than anything
| inherent to the hotel format. Hotels and Airbnb's are
| great, but both be better if both were legal on 100% of
| the land in the city, along with apartment buildings and
| every other form of housing, and without the arbitrary
| restrictions on size.
| seany wrote:
| This is the primary reason I use Airbnb and it's
| equivalents. My typical traveling party is 4 adults, 3
| kids, and 1-2 dogs most of those people have a preference
| to cook rather than eat out. Accommodating that in a
| hotel is a disaster unless you get an ultra low price of
| a double suite or something.
| ghaff wrote:
| That's really the sweet spot for Airbnb (and Vrbo). Very
| few conventional hotels accommodate large groups well. If
| you're just trying to save a few bucks as a couple or
| solo traveler I'm not sure it usually pencils out given
| other tradeoffs.
| huevosabio wrote:
| Yes, this is spot on. The more lax the regulations for
| hotels, the less appealing Airbnb is.
| appreciatorBus wrote:
| Sure tho TBF I wouldn't use the word lax - it implies
| there's something dangerous or untoward going on and we
| are choosing to let it slide. :)
|
| Rather since the rules limiting hotel size, locations,
| quantity etc have nothing to do with safety and
| everything to do with class, exclusivity, and
| segregation, we can jettison them confidently without
| worrying that we are being too lax about anything
| important :)
| huevosabio wrote:
| PMS as property managements software :).
|
| And yes, I use Airbnb as a guest as well, but I gauge the
| risk of having a bad host into the decision making.
|
| We also get all type of horror stories from guests that had a
| bad experience and found themselves trying to find a last
| minute place to stay.
|
| The problem is that the Airbnb app heavily disincentivizes
| "professionalization". They have a small cartel of PMS
| providers that can actually hit their API. I can't build my
| own systems on top of their API, I have to go through a
| middle man or use the their crappy app.
|
| Their app is so incredibly obtuse that it puzzles me how
| people shower Airbnb as a "great product design company".
| It's a beautiful app sure, but incredibly clunky. It's like a
| call center phone menu made into an art piece.
| hintklb wrote:
| I never even understood why people even think Airbnb is a
| tech company.
|
| They basically operate a pretty simple website. Most of
| their busines is about arbitrating issues when they come.
| This has nothing to do with tech.
|
| I would bet that United Airlines or American Airlines
| website handles way more queries than Airbnb.
|
| But for some reason they managed to market themselves as a
| "design driven" "Tech company".
| mtlynch wrote:
| > _So that 's what many of us are doing, moving to PMS + paid
| advertising / SEO_
|
| For those of us not in this space, what does PMS mean?
| lurk2 wrote:
| > Property Management Systems (PMS) or Hotel Operating System
| (HOS), under business, terms may be used in real estate,
| manufacturing, logistics, intellectual property, government,
| or hospitality accommodation management. They are
| computerized systems that facilitate the management of
| properties, personal property, equipment, including
| maintenance, legalities and personnel all through a single
| piece of software.
| gsempe wrote:
| PMS as Property Management System
| 9283409232 wrote:
| I would love to not use Airbnb as a consumer but there is no
| real alternative here. I hear a lot of people say that Airbnb
| is just as expensive as hotels but I just don't see it. I'm
| looking at traveling and a hotel in the area is $900 to $1200
| while Airbnbs are $500 to $800.
| carlosjobim wrote:
| You are yourself in the business of squeezing, so any company
| that will be willing to deal with you will have the aim to
| squeeze you.
| gregorymichael wrote:
| AirBnB and Uber both have a dynamic where the host/driver has
| often taken out a loan and modified their lifestyle to depend
| on this income, which makes them the easier party to squeeze.
| bickfordb wrote:
| I have a smalltime Airbnb and I feel the same. Their only value
| is in their marketing distribution and they take 30%+. Their
| hosting tools could be worse but are not particularly great.
| Usually things work fine, but they have zero / hostile customer
| service on the host side on the random exceptional occurence.
| Hopefully more marketplaces show up
| hintklb wrote:
| Surprised to hear this because I had a very weird experience on
| my last stay. (and it will always be last as I will never stay
| at an Airbnb again).
|
| Airbnb sided with the Host for some fabricated damages because
| the host was mad we told them the place was unclean. They put
| the burden of proof on us to prove we didn't destroy one of the
| sinks. Absolutely ridiculous.
|
| We had to fight it for 3+ hours on the phone and message and
| start a chargeback and only then did support drop the
| fabricated charge.
|
| And to top all of this, Airbnb deleted our bad review from that
| place (but left the review of the host).
|
| So, never, absolutely never again. Too bad because I was
| spending 2k+$ on Airbnb before that incident and only got great
| reviews from other hosts.
| doctorpangloss wrote:
| This isn't an LTV model, it's a regression model. Is it even
| good? Doesn't seem so.
|
| Maybe their folks need to punch "LTV" into Google Scholar.
|
| And also, is it even actionable?
|
| > For example, suppose we run a marketing campaign that provides
| hosts with tips on how to successfully improve their listings
|
| Right guys. "Marketing-induced incremental LTV" indeed.
| mrweiner wrote:
| Yeah I thought the same thing. LTV defined as value over the
| next 365 days...so...not LTV at all?
| cityzen wrote:
| Stopped reading at, "At Airbnb, we always strive to provide our
| community with the best experience."
| game_the0ry wrote:
| I wonder if you could use the same methodology to value potential
| investments in short term rentals.
| iambateman wrote:
| Airbnb's original promise was magical, thrilling, interesting -
| get to stay in unusual places that are full of charm and
| possibility.
|
| But that promise was broken for me when Commaleta played back the
| video of her front door camera and counted that we had 10 people
| walk in her door, not eight. She proceeded to accuse us of
| throwing a party, when we absolutely did not, and tried to charge
| us $1000 extra dollars.
|
| At that point, I decided that Airbnb's hosts were too much of a
| wildcard in most travel situations.
|
| By the way, the story above is from 10 years ago and I will never
| forget her name for the rest of my life...she turned what
| should've been a relaxing, beautiful week into a miserable
| arbitration process. It's hard for ABNB to succeed long term when
| one experience like that can ruin everything.
| gameshot911 wrote:
| Were 10 people in fact staying when the listing max was 8?
| iambateman wrote:
| No, a couple friends who lived in town stopped by for an
| hour.
| courseofaction wrote:
| Last month a first time host confabulated $1200 of
| maintenance charges. Having left the property already, I
| was in no position to produce evidence that they were fake.
| Arbitration was hopeless, I canceled my card and won't be
| using Airbnb again.
| hintklb wrote:
| Funnily enough I went through something similar 3 weeks
| ago at an Airbnb in France.
|
| The host retaliated because we had the audacity to tell
| her that the place was unclean when we checked in. She
| claimed 2000$ of fabricated damage and as you Airbnb
| sided with the host initially.
|
| It's only because I lost 3 hours of my time with support
| and took a thousands of screenshot from our Messages that
| I got them to drop that charge.
|
| I also issued a Chargeback with my credit card for the
| dirty place.
|
| But yeah, this is done for me as well. I had 20+ stays
| but I will never , absolutely never use them again. My
| time is worth something and this Airbnb destroyed our
| holiday and took way too much of my time to handle.
| hintklb wrote:
| had the same experience with a wildcard host that went
| absolutely full lying during our stay just because we told her
| that the place was not really clean.
|
| She went full damage on us as a revenge. Trying to charge us
| 2000$ for fabricated damage. Airbnb Support tried to stand on
| her side asking us if we "had proof we didn't do it". I was on
| holiday. I didn't think about taking every single object in
| high definition picture.
|
| We had to spend 3+ hours on the phone and by message to have
| Airbnb "drop" that 2000$ charge.
|
| Never again. Not worth the time. Airbnb is great when it goes
| well. But you have too many bad hosts that ruin it for
| everyone. And when it goes bad it goes really bad.
| vasco wrote:
| > A deep dive on the framework that lets us identify the most
| valuable listings for our guests.
|
| An opening article lie! For our hosts would be much more
| appropriate. Why does a guest care about how many nights a place
| is going to sell in the next few months?
|
| This assumes value for guests is how much money the property they
| stay at makes, when it obviously isn't that.
| hintklb wrote:
| My advice to everyone is to never book an Airbnb if you value
| your time and sanity.
|
| After a couple OK stays I had an absolutely horrible experience.
| The place was super dirty and the shower was clogged. The hosts
| tried to play nice and made us stay even though they didn't do
| the cleaning (Our fault I guess but when you are tired and
| already there you just want to move on and forget about the
| incident).
|
| After the stay they became dishonest and lied to Support, tried
| to make us pay more. Support sided with the Host and even deleted
| our bad review of the place.
|
| And the final nail in the coffin is that by deleting our bad
| review the host was able to get to Superhost status.
|
| That stay destroyed our holidays. We then had to spend multiple
| hours on the phone and by message with support to defend
| ourselves. Ultimately they manage to leave a misleading review
| for us that we couldn't delete and Airbnb deleted our review of
| them.
|
| It was already overpriced but once you account for the time lost
| when something goes wrong there is absolutely no point to book an
| Airbnb ever again.
|
| Stay with professional in hotels. Your future you will thank you.
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