[HN Gopher] I maintain a 17 year old ThinkPad
___________________________________________________________________
I maintain a 17 year old ThinkPad
Author : Fred34
Score : 555 points
Date : 2025-04-03 02:40 UTC (20 hours ago)
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| p_ing wrote:
| A 17 year old ThinkPad is going to have extremely limited utility
| for today's applications. You can browse the web****, sure. You
| can replace parts, yes. But it still performs like dogshit for
| today's applications.
|
| That said, I maintain a G4 Cube running an outdated OS to play
| Sim City and Sim Tower. And it's "upgraded" as much as possible.
|
| ****JavaScript not included
| willjp wrote:
| It doesn't have to be 17 years old though. I think the point
| he's making is that it's still solving problems for him. I have
| one that's 12 years old. It just does what I need to. Parts are
| easily replaceable. I keep doing the cost/benefit of upgrading
| but I just don't need it.
| ekianjo wrote:
| > But it still performs like dogshit for today's applications
|
| That says more about how unoptimized are today's applications
| than the capabilities of the machine
| neilv wrote:
| Web, including JavaScript, should work fine on that laptop.
|
| Until recently, my daily driver was the T500 (the larger screen
| version of the T400 in the article), and it worked fine for
| everything except GPU.
|
| (I actually downgraded to the T500 years ago, because I was
| pissed off about the Intel Management Engine.)
|
| Recently, I upgraded from the T500 to the T520, which is the
| last ThinkPad with a non-chiclet keyboard. It works fine for
| everything except GPU and fitting inside many backpacks.
|
| With ThinkPads of this era, you want to get a high-spec variant
| of the model (e.g., top-res IPS display), and then make the
| following upgrades:
|
| * SSD
|
| * run Linux
|
| * run uBlock Origin (and block most of the third-party
| surveillance, which hurts performance) (JS runs fine, so long
| as you're not running multiple dueling adtech slimeballs'
| intimate mouse trackers)
|
| * max out the RAM (you don't need that much for Linux, unless
| you're using an exceptionally bloated desktop option, but it's
| cheap, and you can use it to keep filesystems like ~/.cache off
| your SSD )
|
| * (optional) replace the CPU with a more optimal one for power
| draw or heat, or maybe for compute (these are socketed in most
| models)
|
| * (optional, not for the faint of heart) install Coreboot, and
| then you have more WiFi upgrade options
| RavSS wrote:
| You can use the T420/T520's keyboard in a T430/T530 with
| modifications to the firmware, some plastic around the
| keyboard part itself, and the ribbon cable (just pin
| isolation with tape). It lets you go with Ivy Bridge over
| Sandy Bridge.
|
| I have a T430 with the T420's keyboard and it lasted me 7
| years of daily use before battery life became too big of an
| issue for me (even with a single DDR3L RAM module and a slice
| battery), so I put it aside. The typing experience was really
| excellent.
|
| Upgrading the CPU to a quad-core model (ideally one that
| consumes 35W over 45W) is one of the best upgrades to make
| for anyone still using these machines.
| neilv wrote:
| Do you know an exceedingly credible source for the firmware
| modifications?
|
| (Last time I looked, it had the air of the XDA-style
| culture: "To root your phone, download this package from a
| `.ru` piracy site, run the `.exe` on your PC, then install
| and run the closed blobs on your phone, including rooting
| and replacing your bootloader with one, we know you will
| trust us." Though, in their defense, if they were organized
| crime, they would probably make an effort to look more
| legitimate, rather than gratuitously suspicious. And all
| the forum comments were always lapping it up, appearing to
| be doing reckless things, while removing much of the demand
| and contributors for more-credible efforts.)
| Melatonic wrote:
| Any idea if you can get a quad core into the T420 itself ?
| I have a dual core i5 that is still doing decently
| (probably because they still sold i5 CPUs with hyper
| threading back then) but a quad core 35w CPU with HT would
| be a great pair with the dedicated Nvidia graphics.
| Melatonic wrote:
| Not sure about the T520 but my T420 has an old dedicated
| Nvidia graphics (quadro NVS 4200m). Still seems to handle
| anything browser related great and I suspect this is the
| reason (integrated GPU in the dual core i5 probably sucks).
| They're rarer and harder to find though
| boneitis wrote:
| This is the asterisk that always stands out to me with the
| raving posts about how great people's dinosaur Thinkpads are.
|
| Yes, if I don't have to keep multiple browser windows, video
| calls, Slack, and whathaveyou open, then I too can get by with
| an ancient Thinkpad. If it is enough for you, then all the
| power to you. I am sincerely supportive of the fact that you
| can stick it to today's consumerist, disposable tech industry.
|
| Here I am on my T480s with 40 GB memory (8 is soldered) and the
| highest tier CPU for the Thinkpad gen (apparently these are
| soldered on too), and it's a drag. I'm trying to scrape by
| until I can start thinking about saving up for a new Framework.
| acosmism wrote:
| I still use my t440s all the time to this day. it is durable,
| versatile, does exactly what it does and does it well. not tied
| down to its firmware, software - i can't think of the analogy off
| the bat but its like several other things that "just work" (maybe
| indoor plumbing or something) so well you forget about them
| 51Cards wrote:
| My W530 is 13-ish years old and it's still my daily driver. It
| doesn't travel anymore (now wired into my desk) but still works
| great running Win 10. I code on this thing all day and so far
| have only had to replace a fan and give it an SSD upgrade.
| CursedSilicon wrote:
| I wish that Framework could attain the same lofty levels of
| "second hand market success" that ThinkPads enjoy. A lot of the
| "Thinkpad fans" I've talked to genuinely _want_ them, or respect
| them for similar reasons they enjoy the ThinkPad legacy.
|
| ThinkPads are durable but every day they get older, slower and
| more difficult to source parts for as collectors entrench
| themselves and the requirements of operating systems (and the
| "modern web") worsen
|
| Framework laptops are wonderful, modern and (arguably?) cheaper
| to own in the long-term thanks to being able to replace
| components, particularly the entire mainboard as time progresses.
|
| * _But*_ they 're a tiny boutique manufacturer. Their barrier to
| entry is that of a pretty hefty modern laptop, versus buying a
| T420 for practically pennies and performing all kinds of
| aftermarket "mods" to it. 51nb's "FrankenPads" especially breathe
| incredible new life into old IBM and Lenovo stock.
|
| Combine this with the fact that being the "defacto business
| laptop" for nearly three decades (along with perhaps Dell) means
| there's enough Thinkpads on Earth to probably stretch end-to-end
| around the moon and back
| al_borland wrote:
| Framework is still very new. It takes time to build a brand. I
| hope their new Framework 12 hits it big with the mainstream. It
| sounds like it's targeted as the school/chromebook market, but
| as an adult I'm also interested. I'm hoping when the pre-orders
| go up next week it's priced in a way that makes it an impulse
| buy. I really don't need it, but I want to support the company
| and their mission.
| joseda-hg wrote:
| As someone that had been thinking on buying both a tablet and
| some sort of chromebook for light web based workflows on the
| go, they 100% have my attention
|
| I will say, it has weirded me out that they have been so
| cagey about the pricing in particular, which AFAICT, is the
| only thing not public about the laptop before the pre order
| date
| chairmansteve wrote:
| Probably worried about tariffs. Now they know.
| nottorp wrote:
| Now they need to arrange selling and shipping from
| outside the US for their non US customers so they aren't
| affected :)
| onli wrote:
| I also saw no mention about the weight. Did you? Matters to
| me a lot for a 12".
| fishgoesblub wrote:
| Until you're able to somehow transplant a T420 keyboard into a
| Framework, I'm staying on my ThinkPad either until it dies, or
| the heat death of the universe. whichever comes first ;-)
| ekianjo wrote:
| Right. Fantastic keyboards. Nothing comes close in recent
| laptops.
| Rediscover wrote:
| Older ThinkPad (pre-2008) snob checking in. The only recent
| laptops with decent keyboards (that I have found) are from
| MNT Research.
|
| https://mntre.com/
| dahauns wrote:
| It's great that they are mechanical and haven't forsaken
| contours, but since we're among old snobs... _sigh_ I 'll
| never get that "lets shove everything together into a sea
| of keys" layout (so prevalent in the mechakeyboard scene
| nowadays as well).
|
| All those off-center keys have been grouped, offset
| and/or specially shaped since ages for a reason - to
| immediately and unambiguously settle your fingers there
| with minimal error when you have to move you hand away
| from the homerow anyway.
| winrid wrote:
| isn't the x1 carbon keyboard basically the same?
| ekianjo wrote:
| Nope, the 520, 420, 220 had a different design
| diggernet wrote:
| Similar situation here, with W520. My fantasy for Framework
| 16 is to have extended hinges and thick bezel available that
| would lift the screen further from the keyboard deck, and of
| course an upgraded keyboard available with longer travel and
| contoured keys (and better arrow key layout).
|
| Are you listening, Nirav?
|
| (Yes, I know it would make the laptop slightly thicker and
| heavier. But I just said I'm using a W520, and happy with
| it...)
| wpm wrote:
| The arrow key layout makes Framework a non-starter for me.
| Full height L and R keys sucked shit on the touchbar
| MacBook Pros so bad that even Apple acquiesced to common
| sense and went back to the inverted T.
| diggernet wrote:
| I use those keys heavily, and was hoping they'd fix it in
| the 16. Sadly, no. Their keyboard connector layout seems
| to make it difficult to have a keyboard with more rows,
| so having a layout with the bottom 3 arrow keys in a new
| row seems unlikely. But what about a touchpad module that
| has 3 (or 4) arrow keys on it?
|
| Still, it's not a complete nonstarter for me, because the
| 16 does have that optional keypad. I could actually start
| using the numlock key again.
| lolinder wrote:
| I'm unsure how a second hand market for Frameworks would even
| make sense, given that the whole premise is that they're highly
| repairable and upgradable. If everyone just replaces pieces one
| at a time then there can be no market for used whole laptops,
| and if people _did_ start regularly selling off their used
| Frameworks then that would suggest that they 're failing at
| their main value proposition.
|
| I suppose I could see a secondhand market for used mainboards
| and other parts.
| mhitza wrote:
| Both framework and fairphone have secondary community
| markets, and it makes sense. You upgrade and resell your old
| part. Used whole laptops also make sense if one's
| requirements change. i.e. going from a 13 to a 16 or a 12.
|
| https://community.frame.work/c/community-market/202
|
| https://forum.fairphone.com/c/market/51
| mrweasel wrote:
| In my mind there's also a pretty big overlap in MacBook and
| ThinkPad users. For me personal that is the choice I'm faced
| with, when picking a new laptop. Do I get a new MacBook, or
| do I get a ThinkPad running Linux. I don't think I'm unique
| in this way.
|
| Also, at least among the people I work with and talk to, many
| are dropping their MacBooks for a ThinkPad, because they are
| migrating from macOS to Linux as Apple becomes increasingly
| restrictive and running Linux is just becoming the easier
| option.
|
| Framework is approaching the point where there is now a
| choice, Framework or ThinkPads. It's just that I can still
| get a really good used ThinkPad for like half or a third of
| the price.
| mrheosuper wrote:
| There is Thinkpad T25 25th anniversary edition[1]. It has
| "modern" spec, while still having that traditional keyboard of
| t420
|
| Also iirc there are projects that make Motherboard that fit in
| old thinkpad chassis. It has very impressive spec: 8 core Zen3
| AMD cpu and 32gb ram. Some M2 slot etc.
|
| [1]:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad_25th_anniversary_edit...
| john2x wrote:
| I currently have this T25. But it's mostly a gimmick. Once
| the coolness wore off it's just a midrange T470 under the
| hood.
|
| Still trucking after 7 years though. But I can't upgrade it
| to Win 11 lol
| arp242 wrote:
| Keyboard is a bit nicer, but that's probably about it.
|
| Had to use Scroll Lock just yesterday. Which, well, I can't
| on my x13 :-(
| notpushkin wrote:
| You can combine it with a top-line T480 if you want!
| https://www.xyte.ch/mods/t25-frankenpad/
|
| > But I can't upgrade it to Win 11 lol
|
| Nothing of value has been lost :^) (But if you really need
| Win 11, there are workarounds)
| nextos wrote:
| IBM-era ThinkPads were great, but Lenovo has been progressively
| diluting the brand, trying to copy Apple, and releasing way too
| many models to be able to pay attention to detail. Still, they
| are often the best x86 machines, but competition from Framework
| is more than welcome.
|
| Something that I find particularly annoying are persistent
| issues with noisy cooling systems. Some models are great, but
| others have poorly thought fans and overly aggressive firmware.
| Software fixes can only remedy part of the problem. I wish they
| stayed closer to their original ethos of high-quality
| utilitarian computers.
|
| Something like the 25th and 30th Anniversary Editions should be
| in their main stock product line, i.e. stop messing with
| keyboards please. The original was fine.
| cosmic_cheese wrote:
| Framework's offerings are interesting, but after having gotten
| used to the solid rigidity of M-series MacBooks and X1 series
| Thinkpads, the level of flex in the Framework 13 is a major
| issue for me. It's difficult to justify for the price, plus
| PCBs and repeated flex stress don't mix nicely.
|
| I think it's time for either Framework or a third party partner
| to sell a new chassis that's compatible with the FW13's
| mainboard, but focuses on a more sturdy, premium feel, even if
| that means doing away with the modular port cards. I suspect
| that mainboards housed in such a chassis will fare better over
| time than their original housing counterparts.
| mikae1 wrote:
| As I see it, an aluminum slab MNT Reform Next[1] would be a
| better Thinkpad replacement than a Framework (from a build
| and reparability standpoint).
|
| [1] https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/mnt-reform-next
| roywashere wrote:
| Oh man, the MNT Reform looks _so_ awesome!
| 0xEF wrote:
| Except for that price. Yikes. Heck of a barrier to entry
| for an unproven product. I do wish them well, but as we
| call for more modularity in laptop design, we can't
| forget the core value of keeping it affordable for the
| masses.
| bombcar wrote:
| Which is why we're sadly only really going to get it if a
| major manufacturer decides to go Framework on us, because
| otherwise the economies of scale just aren't there.
|
| Or laptops get so uncommon that manufacturers have to
| band together and agree on standards.
| jabl wrote:
| Also, a Cortex A76 isn't exactly a speed demon, even
| compared to some used x86 laptop saved from the recycling
| bin.
|
| The Cortex A53 on the original MNT Reform is even worse.
|
| Then again, if you're mostly just editing text and doing
| some light web surfing, I suppose it's fast enough.
| pmontra wrote:
| If it were at least 14" instead of 12.5".
| numpad0 wrote:
| Every time I see any of those MNT machines in pictures, it
| makes my fingers start frantically typing out lengthy rants
| whether it's about internals or externals or even choices
| of colors.
| cosmic_cheese wrote:
| Yeah I respect the project and mission but it's not for
| me for various reasons.
| srik wrote:
| MNT reforms get more and more appealing by the day as I've
| become increasingly disillusioned by the state of current
| hardware offerings.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| At least the M1~2 series Macbooks scratched the screen with
| the keyboard. Mines did, and asking second hand resailers it
| was a very common issue.
|
| Rigidity is only for the main body, not the screen part.
| mgraupner wrote:
| Using a thin microfibre cloth between keyboard and screen
| prevents this.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| Setting a microfibre cloth every time the laptop is
| bagged is much of a PITA to be honest. The lazier
| solution is a screen protector, albeit screen viewing
| angle or reflection come into consideration.
|
| Personally I moved away from macs, so choosing a laptop
| with a touch screen was the best option: screens are
| tough enough, won't scratch under most circumstances, and
| can be wiped with anything short of diamond dust.
| hkt wrote:
| Classic apple apologia: hey user who spent PSPSPSPS,
| you're doing it wrong!
|
| Reminds me of that iPhone model where they issued
| guidance on how to hold it because people lost signal
| during calls.
| nottorp wrote:
| Only if Apple provides a stream of clean microfibre
| cloths and someone to lay it out for me and close the
| laptop with care.
|
| Otherwise they'd better lay off the drugs that generated
| that thinness fetish and make sturdy devices again.
|
| (Note that i don't see any button traces on my m3 mbpro
| yet. it's close to a year old. And I'm not the kind that
| keeps the tv remote in the plastic bag that it was
| delivered in, probably the opposite.)
| cosmic_cheese wrote:
| FWIW, I've been toting around the 16" M-series models since
| they launched and recently picked up a 13" Air and have yet
| to see this occur. Haven't heard reports of it from
| coworkers or friends either. Not saying it doesn't happen,
| but I suspect there's a particular action or pattern of
| behavior that makes it more likely, such as placing it
| under heavy objects or packing it in tightly with books or
| something like that.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| Yes, it's not a fatality.
|
| For context, that's what I'm talking about with the kind
| of patterns when it happens: https://discussions.apple.co
| m/thread/254769961?sortBy=rank
|
| > packing it in tightly with books
|
| Which is basically equivalent to "putting it in a
| backpack" to me. I brought my last one in a lot of
| places, putting it with an iPad in the laptop
| compartment, the iPad was fine, the MacBook screen
| wasn't. For comparison I have an Asus X13 now, same use
| case (the iPad became a Surface Pro) for the same one
| year+ period now, and the screen is still perfect.
| cosmic_cheese wrote:
| It's worth fixing for sure, but between that and PCB
| flexing, to me the latter is by far the worse of the two.
| A lot of users will never encounter the first, but in a
| laptop with a flexy chassis practically everyone will end
| up flexing their mainboard unless the laptop is
| permanently desk-bound.
| makeitdouble wrote:
| I'd put the spotlight on the repair prices to fix a
| MacBook screen: a full replacement will cost more that
| half the machine price, and basically the same as a
| motherboard replacement for low-middle range models.
|
| It's akin to asking if you prefer to lose your right or
| left arm.
|
| Apple would get out of that issue altogether if they gave
| up on the ultrathin screen. Again, the iPad doesn't have
| this issue for instance.
| nyreed wrote:
| I've been looking for a replacement laptop and this issue
| is making me look away from any future Macbooks.
|
| Does anyone have experience if the issue been resolved in
| more recent designs, or is this something Apple users are
| now expected to live with?
| adgjlsfhk1 wrote:
| imo the modular ports are a massive longevity feature.
| charging cable ports are one of the most common laptop
| killers, so making that modular is a huge step up
| albertgoeswoof wrote:
| Not really these days, most laptops have 2-4 usb c ports
| that you can change through so you have redundancy if one
| fails
| squiggleblaz wrote:
| The modular ports are just USB-C in a cutaway. You can plug
| your charger into the USB-C port, or into a USB-C module
| that plugs into the USB-C port. Totally underwhelming. (I
| had a Framework 16 as a work machine at a previous job.) I
| definitely still make use of USB-A, and I will for some
| time - but only when I'm at home plugging in my keyboard
| and mouse, so I could be perfectly happy with a USB-C hub
| like I use with my current laptop. I want a durable
| computer which I can upgrade the RAM, motherboard, storage,
| replace the battery, screen etc over the next seventeen
| years so that I don't know when one computer begins and the
| next ends. I don't want impractical USB-C ports that I have
| to pay extra for and which limit the durability of the
| system. To be clear: I've never had a laptop whose charging
| port died, but if it was something I'd rate as likely, I'd
| would much rather have a good system and replace the bottom
| cover kit, rather than a compromised system and replace a
| protective plug.
| mistercheph wrote:
| I'm not sure what you lose by the expansion bay port
| being an actual standard port rather than something
| proprietary I'm assuming is what you would prefer? There
| is a grip system where the expansion ports lock in, and
| the ports aren't just hanging by the USB-c male, I have
| not heard of instances where the inner port fails. In
| fact, it's pretty convenient and has come in handy for me
| that in a pinch you can remove the expansion modules and
| have extra usb-c ports.
| cosmic_cheese wrote:
| Modular ports are good, but I'm not sure I need to be able
| to hot swap them.
|
| Larger port module plates that bolt into the sides of the
| chassis with a few screws would be just as good from a
| longevity standpoint, would enable better rigidity, and
| would allow the FW13 to host a considerably higher number
| of ports.
| Groxx wrote:
| I kinda both agree and disagree...
|
| A screw or two definitely wouldn't have impeded the
| handful of times I've moved my 16's parts around, not
| even in the slightest, it's just not that frequent. And I
| don't usually carry other kinds of ports + wouldn't be
| able to have the screwdriver too, it's usually "I have
| them all" or "I have none" and then all I can
| realistically do is swap sides. I'd have zero complaints
| with some standard screws.
|
| ... but tool-less lowers the barrier to literally zero,
| which is pretty big when you need it. It's a very
| different mental-space: absolutely zero concern.
|
| ... and if they were smaller, they'd be incompatible, and
| it'd be harder to build custom ones due to even less
| internal space.
| 4k93n2 wrote:
| or even just keeping the ports on a separate PCB would be a
| help so you dont have to replace the whole motherboard when
| the usb port breaks
|
| i bought maybe 5 differnet thinkpads over the years and
| never had an issue with the old charging port. with the
| last usb-c thinkpad i got i had to buy 2 new chargers and
| both of those i repaired a few times as well. the connector
| just wiggles around too much and the cables are also too
| rigid so when it gets snagged on something the connector
| ends up bending in the port before the cable bends.
|
| in the end i just got rid of it before the actual port on
| the motherboard got completely damaged
| noisy_boy wrote:
| My ThinkPad X1 extreme is still chugging along but gets hot
| etc. I am looking for a cooler machine with ThinkPad
| durability. I can't choose Framework because a) they don't
| ship where I am b) they won't honor warranty if I use
| forwarders c) none of their offerings have a comparably
| durable config.
|
| Maybe they should think about a FrameTough line.
| bkor wrote:
| > My ThinkPad X1 extreme is still chugging along but gets
| hot
|
| Not clear to me if you mean always or that it changed. Do
| suggest to check the thermal paste, plus clear out dust in
| fans and heatsink fins.
| noisy_boy wrote:
| It always had aggressive fans but yes I do plan to open
| it up for cleanup (I do clean the fan grills with a soft
| brush regularly).
| MSFT_Edging wrote:
| I was sad when I bought a new 10th or 11th gen X1 carbon to
| replace my 4th gen. I configured them essentially the same,
| second-to-fastest processor, FHD display, no touch screen.
|
| The 4th gen almost never kicked its fans on, especially in
| Linux. The new one gets far hotter, even at idle. Lenovo
| removed the traditional sleep mode in favor of modern
| sleep, which causes it to die with the lid closed in a
| couple days compared to over a week with the 4th gen.
| winrid wrote:
| My 6th gen carbon almost never gets hot as well. Maybe
| the gen you have has a CPU with a higher TDP? They got
| better again recently.
| umbra07 wrote:
| Someone on the subreddit was talking about how they plan to
| make a high-end carbon fiber chassis for the 13. That was a
| few weeks ago - I don't believe they've posted anything since
| their initial post.
| Malcolmlisk wrote:
| As a 13 owner (only thinkpad 13, nobody talks about it but
| I think is one of the best pieces of hardware I have ever
| owned) this would be fantastic. I would love to have my 13
| for life. I don't know if my 13 is able to be upgraded like
| a desktop PC like other thinkpads, but adding a carbon
| fiber chassis would be like fresh air.
| ethbr1 wrote:
| Thermal conductivity?
| umbra07 wrote:
| My comment was referencing the Framework 13, not the
| ThinkPad :)
| ohgr wrote:
| They are bendy as hell - I have a couple of colleagues with
| them.
|
| Also on that I think they should do away with the modular
| port things anyway. They're a suboptimial use of space and
| limit the total number of ports you can have. The real
| problem is that the ports on most laptops are soldered
| directly to the motherboard which results in extreme expense
| if you kill one. Just give us some replaceable ones like the
| current MacBook line. They're on an easy to remove
| daughterboard and purchaseable online.
| pmontra wrote:
| My ZBook from 2014 is apparently made of sturdy plastic but
| the keyboard is built on a metal base and it fits in metal
| hooks on the chassis. It does not flex at all.
|
| The problem with this machine is that sooner or later I'll
| run out of reasonably priced keyboards (they wear and the
| mechanisms under the most used keys break), maybe no more
| support for the graphic card neither from Nvidia nor from the
| open source driver, and go forbids if some RAM burns. Perhaps
| RAM from that age it still available but historically the
| prices hike when only a few desperate people look for it and
| have to pay a premium.
|
| So eventually I'll have to buy a new laptop because of
| maintenance: hardware parts and software updates. I'm betting
| on another 2 or 3 years. There is nothing I particularly like
| on the market now but this laptop was a compromise too.
| Serviceability and 3 buttons on the touchpad vs a useless
| number pad that shifts the center of the keyboard to the left
| of the screen.
| bluGill wrote:
| I suspect you could get a local machinist to make you a
| metal base, then find mechanical key switches and the other
| parts and thus make a new replacement keyboard to your
| specs. Keyboards are not very complex so some effort can
| get you a new one to fit.
| wpm wrote:
| Apparently the flex on the 16 is bad enough that the pogo pin
| connector for the keyboard deck loses contact every time you
| pick the laptop up.
| organsnyder wrote:
| I have an M4 MacBook from work and a personal Framework 13.
| The MacBook certainly feels more solid, but I wouldn't call
| the Framework flimsy, and it still has a premium feel.
|
| I made the mistake of packing my MacBook (at the time an M1
| model), my Framework, and my iPad Pro 12.9 (with keyboard
| case) in a single laptop bag for a work trip a while back.
| The Framework got bent around the power button in a way that
| made the button get jammed; I bought a new input cover for
| ~$100 and replaced it in five minutes. My iPad's keyboard
| case now has keys that occasionally get stuck, so I'll
| probably replace that at some point. My MacBook seemed fine
| at the time, but it developed an intermittent trackpad button
| jam that could have been caused by that (or maybe a piece of
| dust).
| gibibit wrote:
| Interestingly the Macbook trackpad does not have physical
| buttons. It uses haptic feedback to simulate the feeling of
| a "click", but in reality there is no button which could be
| interrupted by dust.
|
| I did have a Macbook trackpad fail in a similar way, where
| the "button" seemed to intermittently fail to click. It
| turned out my battery was swelling (see /r/spicypillows)
| and this impacted the trackpad operation.
|
| On topic, I took the Macbook with swollen battery in to the
| Apple Store and they had to replace the entire
| keyboard+battery assembly as a unit because the battery was
| not replaceable.
| cosmic_cheese wrote:
| MacBooks haven't had mechanical trackpads in over a decade
| now -- they're solid glass with really good haptics to make
| it feel like they move, so I doubt what you're experiencing
| with yours is a mechanical jam. It's more likely that the
| haptic motor is malfunctioning occasionally or there's
| something that's causing the process in charge of haptics
| to stall.
| rafamvc wrote:
| The second hand market is so good for Thinkpads because there
| were so many of them bought by businesses.
|
| Framework isn't the top choice for business.
| noisy_boy wrote:
| There are plenty of well heeled techies who will pay premium
| for a modern machine with durability and repairability of the
| ThinkPads of the old.
| j45 wrote:
| When Frameworks first came out, there was doubt that they
| couldn't last a year.
|
| Or launch multiple lines.
|
| Longevity is built one step at a time. Voting with dollars only
| helps it become an option enough and signal to other
| manufacturers to consider similar ways.
| grudg3 wrote:
| Obligatory "I can't even order Framework in my country" post.
|
| But I can get as many Thinkpads as I want.
| bigpeopleareold wrote:
| Same here - can also buy 2 or 3 T480s for the price of a new
| framework even if they did deliver :D
| linguae wrote:
| I enjoy my Framework 13 laptop; it's great having a laptop that
| is user-serviceable and upgradable, and I'm keeping my eyes out
| on the upcoming Framework convertible laptop as a potential
| replacement for my aging Microsoft Surface Pro 7.
|
| With that said, I do wish the keyboard on my Framework 13 were
| better. It would be a wonderful to have a ThinkPad-quality
| keyboard, I have a ThinkPad T430 and its keyboard is one of the
| best chiclet-style keyboards I've ever used. I also like the
| keyboard on my old aluminum PowerBook G4, as well as the
| keyboard on my work-issued M3 MacBook Pro. What would be a
| dream, though, would be if there's some way to fit a mechanical
| keyboard into a laptop.
| cassepipe wrote:
| I did not expect this criticism ! I, and many others
| apparently, enjoy the keyboard a lot. My main criticism would
| be that even though it's acceptable, the chassis does not
| feel rugged.
| joe5150 wrote:
| Agreed particularly with respect to the top cover (though
| it has improved).
| dahauns wrote:
| >With that said, I do wish the keyboard on my Framework 13
| were better.
|
| Exactly this. I've given up hope to expect an old-school TP
| keyboard with its ridged concave keys providing perfect
| tactile feedback even when not depressing a key, but there's
| basically no standard laptop layout out there anymore
| optimized for efficient touch typing, with existing
| consistently grouped and offset(!) off-center key groups
| (4-group f-keys, pgup/pgdn/home/end cluster, arrow keys). And
| _some_ key travel to go with tactile scissor keys to reduce
| bottoming-out would be nice.
|
| (Oh, and why I find the "tactile feedback" so important, see
| the wonderful "Pictures Under Glass" rant.
|
| https://worrydream.com/ABriefRantOnTheFutureOfInteractionDes.
| ..
|
| Not directly related to keyboards, but the premise remains
| the same. Hands feel things. :) )
| codethief wrote:
| Great article, thanks for the link!
| kristopolous wrote:
| Every time i see the framework people at a conference i insist
| that they have to target the thinkpad users and not just the
| macbook people.
|
| Just remind them if you see them. They'll eventually prioritize
| making it happen.
|
| At every company I've worked for, tickets get promoted from the
| backlog if enough customers or would-be customers nag about it.
| cassepipe wrote:
| Even MacBook users are used to something quite more rugged
| HexPhantom wrote:
| I really hope they get there though. The idea of a modern,
| repairable, modular laptop that doesn't lock you into a walled
| garden is incredibly appealing
| GolfPopper wrote:
| My only objection to the 51nb FrankenPads is that to the best
| of my knowledge, they take out the ExpressPort. As a bit of a
| data-hoarder, I _use_ my ExpressPort for an M2 drive, and don
| 't particularly want to give that up.
| roywashere wrote:
| My new company of about 100 persons uses ThinkPads as their
| 'standard issue' laptops. Which I guess is great. I have a T480
| privately. But modern ThinkPads are not as great as before, and
| I was just thinking about if the Framework might make a nice
| 'standard issue' laptop for the company. I guess it might be
| just fine!
| maccard wrote:
| When would you define as "before"? I've had a thinkpad on and
| off and I'd describe the quality as consistent.
|
| People talking about old Lenovos being good quality are often
| talking about in the pre-IBM days which is far more likely to
| be nostalgia at this point.
| hkt wrote:
| Not sure what GP means but I gather the x230 era (2012?)
| has a cult following. I picked one up a few years ago when
| a laptop died and I didn't have the cash for something new:
| it is still my daily driver and I'm not replacing it til it
| dies.
|
| By contrast, I know someone who got a T480 second hand and
| it lasted six months. My guess is the 2012 era was when the
| change happened
| dahauns wrote:
| It's been a gradual shift, with a few obvious changes
| along the way.
|
| Among a few: The keyboard switch from the old 7-row
| (whose pinnacle was at the x220/T420 era with double-
| height esc and del) to the new 6-row (with later ever
| decreasing key travel) to the current x9 (which is
| basically just a yoga keyboard with no trackpoint, no key
| grouping, and the loss of pgup/pgdn). Things like the
| modular battery options vanished. The case got flimsier
| over time with e.g. the magnesium rollcage first
| vanishing from the display, then from the base. (And no -
| from enterprise experience - the carbon fiber composite
| isn't generally "as good or better", esp. for failure
| modes like punctual force on the display. Or...grabbing
| the laptop by the display and using it to fan your BBQ,
| which doesn't faze my old X41 :) ).
| notpushkin wrote:
| > The keyboard switch from the old 7-row (whose pinnacle
| was at the x220/T420 era with double-height esc and del)
|
| I think xx30-series has such a good reputation because
| you could use a T420 keyboard (with a tiny modification
| to better fit the chassis and not short out the backlight
| pin).
| sfn42 wrote:
| My first ThinkPad had terrible battery life. It was a X1
| Extreme or something like that, pretty high end but the
| battery was useless. Even brand new it wouldn't last an
| hour off leash. Also couldn't use usb-c charging from the
| monitors at the office, had to be plugged in.
|
| Also the Fn key is where the Ctrl key should be, which is
| endlessly annoying as a user of different laptop brands.
| arcanemachiner wrote:
| I heard recently that there's an option somewhere to
| virtually swap the Ctrl and Fn keys.
| mistercheph wrote:
| It's still annoying to use the smaller key, but you can
| swap them in the BIOS config
| jeswin wrote:
| > Also the Fn key is where the Ctrl key should be, which
| is endlessly annoying as a user of different laptop
| brands.
|
| There's always been a bios option to swap them. It's on
| my x230, and probably exists on older PCs as well.
| RunSet wrote:
| IBM invented the Fn key so if anyone has their Fn key
| where the Ctrl key _should_ be, it is the copycats.
|
| > The Fn key first debuted on the monochrome display
| ThinkPad 300 in October of 1992. Yes there was a ThinkPad
| with a monochrome display. The Fn key circa 1992 was
| placed exactly as it is today. Interestingly enough,
| Apple uses the same positions for their Fn and Ctrl keys
| as ThinkPad. Every other notebook personal computer
| manufacturer that I know of has the Fn and Ctrl key
| positions swapped. Some would say backwards.
|
| https://web.archive.org/web/20110130203223/https://www.le
| nov...
| herbst wrote:
| I have a T420. A few years ago I switched to a slightly
| used T480, keyboard was a huge downgrade and the whole
| series can get really stupid USBC issues. After half a year
| or so it didn't dock anymore and I got an X1, basically the
| same laptop glad I found it without touch and the 'bright
| screen' because the screen is barely good enough, keyboard
| is the same and USBc already started to get finicky.
|
| Meanwhile my T420 still runs like on day one (which was
| already 5 years old when I got it, and travelled 1+ years
| with me in a backpack), the screen works in direct sunlight
| and it's not even the best of its series, hardware still
| perfect. Fat SSD + 32GB Ram and you can barely tell how old
| it is.
| notpushkin wrote:
| I also have a T420, though not using it regularly
| nowadays. It would be really nice to get proper USB-C
| there - using one cable to plug in monitor and Ethernet
| and charge is really nice.
|
| I've wanted to get a T480 for a while now (mainly to do a
| T25 frankenpad [1] - seems like a nice project), but if
| it really has those issues with the USB-C ports, I think
| I'll pass :-(
|
| [1]: https://www.xyte.ch/mods/t25-frankenpad/
| herbst wrote:
| If you'd go that far for fancy laptop soldering a new
| usbc slot every few years might be non issue for you :)
| organsnyder wrote:
| Yup, my T480 got upgraded to a Framework 13 after the
| T480's Thunderbolt port broke (known firmware issue that
| basically fried the chip). I loaned my T480 to someone
| about a year ago, and haven't bothered asking for it
| back.
|
| Meanwhile, my T410 works great as a workbench computer.
| prmoustache wrote:
| I've solved the USB-C aging issue by using those magnetic
| cable adapters on all laptops and smartphones.
| smiley1437 wrote:
| Be careful - those magnetic adapters can fry your port
|
| https://www.pcworld.com/article/2307079/dont-buy-these-
| dange...
| close04 wrote:
| I've used Thinkpads consistently for 25-30 years, and still
| do. I can't really draw a line between "before" and "after"
| but if I take a long enough period I can definitely see
| differences in the experience getting watered down or
| generally worse, from less flexibility to lower
| reliability.
|
| I still have and regularly use a fully functional X200,
| somewhere in the box I have a fully functional T42 and an
| R31 whose only defect is a small screen blemish caused by
| me closing the lid with something on the keyboard.
|
| But my multiple X1 Gen1 and Gen2 all have various failures
| (screen, battery, webcam, or keyboard), my T450 has big
| battery issues, my T470s have screen/GPU and battery
| issues. T490 is fine for now, X1 Gen11 has crappy battery
| and is overheating from the get go. These are different
| generations, different lots and still affected by the same
| constant issues.
| danieldk wrote:
| We had an expensive IBM ThinkPad model (too long ago to
| remember what model it was) and the keyboard and several
| other parts were worn down in three years of mostly in-home
| use. So -\\_(tsu)_/-.
|
| At least a lot of modern ThinkPads are still modular.
| Recently got a 5th gen T14 AMD. Memory, NVMe SSD, WWAN
| modem, battery, and a bunch of other components are really
| easy to replace. I think I prefer the keyboard over my MBP,
| it feels less harsh.
| roywashere wrote:
| I definitely know that people have complained that modern
| ThinkPads are not as good as before, and they have been
| doing that for ages, just as Socrates back in the day
| already was complaining about modern kids and their
| behaviours ;-)
|
| In this case I was referring to post-T480 ThinkPads which
| have soldered memory, and no longer have hot-swappable
| batteries or on-board Ethernet.
| vel0city wrote:
| I don't mind not having an external battery now that
| these laptops can charge off USB-C. So many ways to get
| some kind of USB-C power source to connect to and get a
| bit more charge, and then that spare energy source is
| usable with pretty much all the rest of my electronics.
| Whereas before it was a big, proprietary battery that
| _only_ worked with one device and needed to be connected
| to the laptop to charge some time later.
|
| They're still pretty easy to find replacements for when
| they go bad.
| shoo wrote:
| > enough Thinkpads on Earth to probably stretch end-to-end
| around the moon and back LD, average distance
| between Earth and Moon = 384,399,000 m [1] C =
| circumference of moon = 10,917,000 m R :=
| approximate round trip distance = 2LD + 0.5*C = 774,256,500 m
| n = total number of thinkpads on earth <= total number of
| thinkpads ever manufactured = 250 million [2][2a][2b]
| W = width of thinkpad = 0.3366 m [3] T = total
| thinkpad distance = n * W <= 84,150,000 m
|
| Alas, T / R, the ratio of total thinkpad distance T to our
| lunar round trip distance R, is at most about 0.11 .
|
| This is with the optimistic assumption that the total number of
| thinkpads on earth equals the total number of thinkpads ever
| manufactured. A more conservative estimate might be something
| like n = total number of thinkpads manufactured each year *
| mean lifespan of a thinkpad = (12 million thinkpads / year) *
| (5 years lifespan) = 60 million thinkpads in good working order
| for a lunar round trip. [1]
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunar_distance [2] IBM sold
| 25m thinkpads before selling product line to Lenovo. By 2022,
| Lenovo had sold 200m thinkpads. With linear extrapolation to
| 2024 that gives approx 250 million thinkpads manufactured.
| [2a] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ThinkPad [2b]
| https://www.forbes.com/sites/timbajarin/2022/10/05/celebrating-
| thinkpads-30th-anniversaryan-insiders-perspective/ [3]
| assume every thinkpad is a T480. https://psref.lenovo.com/syspo
| ol/Sys/PDF/ThinkPad/ThinkPad_T480/ThinkPad_T480_Spec.PDF
| xnorswap wrote:
| It won't get you to the moon, but you can squeeze out a
| little more distance by arranging them corner to corner.
| shoo wrote:
| We must either increase the production rate of T480-size
| thinkpads by around 9x or get Lenovo to release at least
| one special edition extreme widescreen thinkpad specialised
| for lunar round trips
| fouronnes3 wrote:
| Or move the moon closer.
| johnisgood wrote:
| That sounds even more plausible.
| n4r9 wrote:
| An early 20th Century scientist named Olaf discovered a
| means to do this by intensifying the level of
| intelligence on Earth. If you ask me, the first step
| towards this must be slashing government funding for
| anything that smells of tolerance. And making bizarre
| tweets that coincidentally correlate with buying and
| selling shares.
| johnisgood wrote:
| Ah yes, the Olafian Lunar Proximity Theory. While
| government defunding might accelerate intelligence in
| peculiar ways, I've found that the most effective method
| involves strategically placing enormous quantities of
| vintage ThinkPads at precise geomagnetic nodes around the
| Earth.
|
| The collective electromagnetic resonance of their
| legendary keyboards creates a subtle gravitational
| anomaly that could, over approx. 17.3 years, reduce the
| lunar orbit by up to 4% (!), according to my rigorous
| calculations and simulations.
|
| My recent paper[1] on "Retrotech Gravitational
| Manipulation" was mysteriously rejected by mainstream
| journals, likely due to Big Space's vested interest in
| maintaining the status quo; the current Earth-Moon
| distances for profit reasons.
|
| Have you came across my paper, considering you have heard
| about Olaf?
|
| [1] https://arvix.org/abs/2108.05779v3 ("Retrotech
| Gravitational Manipulation: Theoretical Applications of
| Legacy Computing Hardware on Celestial Body Dynamics")
|
| Edit: Ugh, the site seems to be down at this moment,
| typical HN hug of death. Sorry about that. Forgot to
| archive! My rookie mistake. :/
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| Wasn't there at least one movie, where that was not a
| good thing?
| johnisgood wrote:
| There was. I think it was titled "Moonfall", or maybe
| "Another Earth". There is also "Oblivion" in which the
| Moon was partially destroyed. There are probably other
| ones, too, but I think "Moonfall" is the one to which you
| are referring. I might just give it a watch in a bit!
|
| But yeah, it would not be a good thing, according to the
| movie at least.
| beepbooptheory wrote:
| In "Bruce Almighty" Jim Carrey uses his God powers to
| move the moon closer to create a more romantic view for
| his date. If my memory serves correct, the next day we
| hear briefly on the news about terrible freak flooding
| over the world.
| johnisgood wrote:
| I remember that movie and that scene. :)
| cyberpunk wrote:
| Try seveneves for an even worse outcome
| kayge wrote:
| Counterpoint: in Despicable Me the moon was shrunk and
| brought down to Earth with almost zero consequences... so
| maybe it would be just fine!
| eggy wrote:
| Seveneves by Neal Stephenson was a good book that goes
| into what happens when things change between the Earth
| and Moon.
| bluGill wrote:
| Unfortunately the moon is moving farther away, and
| robbing the earth of rotational speed in the process.
| Bluestein wrote:
| Tarifs.
| omnster wrote:
| Exactly. We can also win a tiny bit of the distance by
| assuming the Moon in the perigee, where the distance to the
| Moon is about 363000 km. I also assume that these distances
| are measured between the centers, so we can perhaps
| subtract twice the Earth radius (about 2*6400 km).
| vman81 wrote:
| Corner to corner with their hinge opened to 180deg
| linacica wrote:
| Well not the moon, but about 100 times back and forth to ISS
| Average distance of ISS 370-460km, let's take 415km, back and
| forth so 2x 415km= 830km 84 150km/830=~101
| setopt wrote:
| Almost terrifying that the two length scales are only an
| order of magnitude apart...
| metalman wrote:
| Comment on the comments.....it sure looks like moores law is
| loosing relevance and that going forward the possibility for
| durable, stable, device implemtations, that can last for
| generations is inevitable. Manufacturers may be resistant,
| but with 8~9 billion customers, and the inevitable losses and
| damage to devices, it will take a generation to get one in
| everybodys hands
| WillAdams wrote:
| Yeah, my needs are simplistic enough (light coding, 2D
| drawing, programmatic 3D modeling using OpenPythonSCAD)
| that I'm seriously considering switching to an rPi 5 paired
| w/ a Wacom Movink 13 and a second display and a battery
| pack as my main computer.
| LeFantome wrote:
| Video editing and animation already require modern kit. And
| AI is adding significant processing requirements. We are
| not off the treadmill yet.
|
| I say this as somebody the regularly uses laptops as old as
| 2009 (like, I will spend most of today on one). A lot of
| real-world, everyday computing barely taxes modern hardware
| on a decent OS like Linux. Old hardware will let you do a
| lot more than people think.
| 4k93n2 wrote:
| brilliant comment. dont forget theres also thinkpads like
| that W700ds that had secondary displays that extended out
| from the side haha
| DavidPeiffer wrote:
| W700ds is such an oddity. I love it. One day in high
| school, my dad asked "what's the difference between RAID 1
| and RAID 0?", which led to me sitting down next to him to
| spec this monster laptop out. A week later he purchased it.
|
| At ~10.9 lbs + 2.2 lbs for the charger, it was not terribly
| practical to travel with, so it ended up effectively as a
| desktop in the office.
|
| It now sits in my closet, and periodically I turn it on.
| The dual screen was a bit too small to do much with, but it
| was great for notepad or a chat window. Being a 32 bit
| system limited to 4 GB of RAM, it's not terribly useful
| today.
| uticus wrote:
| opening the thinkpads will add ~ 38% to the effective area of
| stacking thinkpads, if edge-to-edge (0.2325m depth closed,
| assuming doubling for opened = 0.465m opened) [0].
|
| if opened and touching corner-to-corner (~0.574m), will add ~
| 71% to effective area.
|
| [0] https://www.lenovo.com/content/dam/lenovo/pcsd/north-
| america...
| janitor77swe wrote:
| > Framework laptops are wonderful, modern and (arguably?)
| cheaper to own in the long-term thanks to being able to replace
| components, particularly the entire mainboard as time
| progresses.
|
| That is entirely false. Replacing the mainboard itself costs
| the same amount of money as a new laptop (an entire device).
| Their component prices are on their website under "Shop Parts",
| so you can verify that for yourself. I can buy a brand new
| Ryzen 7000 series laptop for the price of replacing a Ryzen
| 7000 series mainboard for a Framework laptop. Their laptops are
| also a lot more expensive than same spec branded ones from
| Asus, Lenovo and Dell that have better build quality and
| design.
|
| I don't know where does this myth come from. The cost of
| replacing individual component is more expensive than replacing
| an entire device which people do not do because it needs
| repairing or often even upgrading, but because they're sick of
| the sight of it. You can't replace one component and extend the
| life of your PC another full cycle because you'll soon have to
| replace other components too. So when it comes to upgrading you
| have to consider the price of upgrading all available
| components to get the true cost as opposed to buying a new
| device.
|
| Eventually, sooner rather than later, both RAM and SSD will
| come soldered on, so the only thing you will be able to replace
| is the battery and the screen. Both which 99% users never have
| to replace.
|
| I am a Thinkpad user myself, have had them for both work and
| pleasure. Recently upgraded my old T14 for an X13 after reading
| and watching a lot of Framework reviews. It's just simply a
| gimmick, with a lot of quality issues, being sustained by
| having LTT name behind it.
| mistercheph wrote:
| > Replacing the mainboard itself costs the same amount of
| money as a new laptop (an entire device). Their component
| prices are on their website under "Shop Parts", so you can
| verify that for yourself. I can buy a brand new Ryzen 7000
| series laptop for the price of replacing a Ryzen 7000 series
| mainboard for a Framework laptop.
|
| That's not true, you must be comparing unlike boards and
| machines.
|
| a 7640 mainboard is $380
| (https://frame.work/products/mainboard-amd-
| ryzen-7040-series?...) and a 7640 chassis (with no memory,
| ssd, or expansion bays) is $750
| (https://frame.work/products/laptop-diy-13-gen-
| amd/configurat...)
|
| Another example, the ai 7 350 mainboard is $700, and a bare
| chassis is $1,230.
| janitor77swe wrote:
| Look:
|
| Ryzen 7840U replacement Framework mainboard PS699
| (currently discounted):
| https://frame.work/gb/en/products/mainboard-amd-
| ryzen-7040-s...
|
| Thinkbook 14" Gen 7, 7735HS/16G/512G PS730 - https://www.le
| novo.com/gb/en/configurator/cto/index.html?bun...
|
| Ideapad Slim 3 Gen 10 14", 8840HS/24G/512G PS730 - https://
| www.lenovo.com/gb/en/configurator/cto/index.html?bun...
|
| 7840U and 8840HS are essentially the same CPU and the
| difference in performance between 7840U and 7735HS is
| minimal, few % at best. So these three are comparable. I'm
| sorry but for the price of a replacement mainboard I can
| buy a brand new whole laptop with memory, storage, screen,
| the everything that comes with it. Am I the only one who
| just doesn't get the hype behind a repairable laptop?
| vhodges wrote:
| Huh... I think the Pound is over valued or something.
| It's $699 CAD (currently discounted mind you) which is
| something like PS380 (according to Google today).
|
| I have a 12th Gen 13 but I will probably wait one more
| generation and either get that or a discounted Strixpoint
| MB (since it'll be a generation back and presumably
| cheaper).
| squiggleblaz wrote:
| > I can buy a brand new Ryzen 7000 series laptop for the
| price of replacing a Ryzen 7000 series mainboard for a
| Framework laptop.
|
| I haven't been able to confirm this (I found laptop prices
| running at about twice the cost of the mainboard), but I
| wonder if you're comparing an EOL runout model from a place
| that can afford heavy discounts against a standard price from
| a smaller company. If you just need a laptop and you're not
| too fussy, that's definitely a fair choice. But if you're
| buying a laptop for ten years, you probably aren't going to
| settle for the unsold 16GB 512GB.
|
| > Their laptops are also a lot more expensive than same spec
| branded ones from Asus, Lenovo and Dell that have better
| build quality and design.
|
| I guess a Framework isn't for someone who wants a same spec
| Asus, Lenovo or Dell.
|
| > Eventually, sooner rather than later, both RAM and SSD will
| come soldered on, so the only thing you will be able to
| replace is the battery and the screen.
|
| This is 173% fud. If it happens, it's because Framework is
| dead and there's some different company that bought their
| branding and just wants to use it for market segmentation. I
| definitely have to rate the chances that Framework has died
| as one of the risks of buying them, whereas I wouldn't
| concern myself with the risk of System76 dying, because a
| typical laptop lasts well past its warranty, but the point of
| Framework is indeed what happens in that post-warranty
| period.
|
| I'm not a huge fan of Frameworks. I left a critical review on
| another comment. I'm not sure at all if they fit my needs,
| and having recently discovered the wonder of tailscale I'm
| now debating if my next computer will be a Framework vs a
| headless desktop + a dumb laptop. So even if a Framework
| doesn't fit my needs, they're still the only laptop that
| seems to. But your criticisms don't at all seem grounded
| enough.
| dagw wrote:
| _This is 173% fud. If it happens, it 's because Framework
| is dead_
|
| Take a look at the Framework desktop, it comes with
| soldered on RAM. Not because of any active decisions made
| by Framework, but simply because that's how that CPU ships.
| It literally didn't support RAM slots. I can only see this
| trend continuing. I don't doubt that Framework will be the
| last hold out in the fight against soldered on RAM and
| SSDs, but sooner or later if they want to keep shipping the
| latest CPUs, they probably won't have too much of a choice
| in the matter.
| tomnipotent wrote:
| My gut is that Framework shipping a desktop with soldered
| RAM was simply a compromise of opportunity, given the LLM
| boom and interest in AMD Strix Halo. I can only guess,
| but I'm betting the Intel desktop will not have soldered
| parts. I'm further hopeful that if folks need to upgrade
| this specific device that there will be a healthy second
| hand market hungry for them like there is for used Nvidia
| GPU's.
|
| But I do agree that the trend of soldered SoC-like will
| grow, seeing that less than 1 in 10 consumers ever
| upgrade a computer. Apple silicon has been out for four
| years and I don't really come across a lot of grumbling
| about their integrated components which gives me hope
| that it's a tenable option and we're worried about
| nothing.
| vhodges wrote:
| FW asked AMD about lpcamm memory and AMD looked into it
| (assigned an engineer and everything) but came back and
| said no it couldn't be done (I am guessing without
| crippling performance).
|
| I would be in the market for the MB only but I think I
| can build a 9950 based system cheaper, but I am not
| running AI models locally.
| AshamedCaptain wrote:
| > the only thing you will be able to replace is the battery
| and the screen. Both which 99% users never have to replace.
|
| This is sarcasm, I hope, right? The two most consumable items
| in the laptop (specially for OLED screens), and you're
| suggesting users have no need to replace them?
| janitor77swe wrote:
| Yes that's exactly what I'm suggesting. The two things I
| never had to replace since I got my first laptop in the
| late 90s, not do I know anyone who had to replace those.
| Muvasa wrote:
| Literally the battery is the only thing I had to replace
| on every laptop I've had.
| cassepipe wrote:
| Well I have had to replace hinges, upgrade RAM, replace
| the battery, change HDD to SSD, replace a broken
| keyboard, an entire enclosure and finally a dying
| motherboard after 11 years of use. The laptop is still
| working but it could have really used a screen upgrade.
|
| Maybe standard screen definition is now good enough, RAM
| big enough, SSD more durable, shell more durable
| (although I have to say that's a disappointment with the
| fw) and hinges longer lasting, and maybe Framework is
| fighting the last war but that's the reason I went for
| one anyways.
|
| This is a long run bet and if it doesn't pan out to be an
| amazing deal, it will still a better experience than the
| previous one.
|
| It costed more than my previous laptop but no more or
| less what I have had to pay to maintain the previous one.
| If it had been a framework, it would still be my
| workhorse.
|
| Future will tell
| znpy wrote:
| > 51nb's "FrankenPads" especially breathe incredible new life
| into old IBM and Lenovo stock.
|
| That's biased though. As soon as a 51nb motherboard dies or has
| any hardware failure you're back to 2008-era level of
| performance.
| Melatonic wrote:
| Any idea how reliable those motherboards are ?
| DeathArrow wrote:
| >Framework laptops are wonderful, modern and (arguably?)
| cheaper to own in the long-term thanks to being able to replace
| components, particularly the entire mainboard as time
| progresses.
|
| They are also bulky and battery life is not great.
|
| To upgrade it you have to buy a mainboard which is quite
| expensive.
|
| I found that I am better by selling my old laptop and buying a
| new one.
| unethical_ban wrote:
| I don't know about other non-mac laptops. I agree the battery
| life isn't anything to write home about, but it's better than
| my corporate windows laptop. I blame Intel/AMD/Windows for
| killing off proper suspend modes.
|
| But bulky? I have the Framework 13 and it's very well sized.
| Smaller and lighter than the 14" macbook pro and similar to
| my windows laptop.
| nottorp wrote:
| > I blame Intel/AMD/Windows for killing off proper suspend
| modes.
|
| Holy $ALL_DEITIES! I use mac laptops, but I've recently set
| up a WinAMDNvidia "gaming" laptop. I just closed the lid
| when I was done for the day, because that's what you do
| with macs.
|
| In the morning there was a strong whooshing sound in my
| home office. Guess what, the sleeping laptop had turned its
| fan on. What kind of sleep mode is that that needs active
| cooling?
| einpoklum wrote:
| > Framework laptops are wonderful
|
| No they're not. They have the sake kind of atrocious low-travel
| keyboards that almost-all (or all) other laptops these days
| have. And - for many of us - the most important piece of
| hardware in a laptop is the keyboard.
| DeathArrow wrote:
| >ThinkPads are durable but every day they get older, slower and
| more difficult to source parts for as collectors entrench
| themselves and the requirements of operating systems (and the
| "modern web") worsen
|
| That's true for every computer. But people still buy old C64,
| Amiga, Atari, IBM or Apple computers.
| criddell wrote:
| > But people still buy old C64, Amiga, Atari, IBM or Apple
| computers.
|
| Not in meaningful numbers.
| piokoch wrote:
| I am not sure what is so fascinating about Framework laptops.
| They are pretty expensive and are, in fact, one more Chinese
| OEM production - they are produced by Taiwanese Compal
| Electronics, which has factory in Kunshan (China).
|
| It is hard to build a legend around something like this.
|
| MacBooks are produced in China too (as everything), but they
| have that "legacy" of being a cult product from U.S.A.
| nrp wrote:
| We manufacture in Taiwan, not China, and the design is ours,
| not Compal's.
| silisili wrote:
| I think durability on old Thinkpads is way underrated as a
| reason people love them.
|
| Me, as a 250ish lb giant, have stepped on one multiple times
| without so much as a creak. Granted, it was on accident each
| time and I'm sure perfect heel placement could have done the
| job if I tried.
|
| Even so, can Framework do the same? Can anyone else making
| laptops today?
| dahauns wrote:
| Part of the Thinkpad sales pitch of old was literally to
| throw the Thinkpad on the floor and step on it, pick it up
| and continue the presentation. Or, as I mentioned elsewhere,
| to grab it by the display end and pretend to use it to fan a
| fire.
| xaldir wrote:
| As someone who started it's career in a thinkpad only shop
|
| Indeed, old thinkpads were designed to survive a coffee spill
| on the keyboard and they did, and various drops (with
| spinning rust as storage and cfl backed screens)
|
| And when you achieve to break some part, it can be easily
| swapped. Oh and the documentation for that is available and
| very detailed.
| 0xEF wrote:
| Yeah, the price is the only thing that holds me back from
| trying a Framework 13.
|
| I have a few Thinkpad X260s which can be got on eBay for
| $100US. Drop in a fresh SSD and stick of 16gb memory for
| another $100US and you have a very capable little machine for
| common, daily use that suits all my needs more than adequately.
| If one gets damaged, I am not out too much money. I've been
| using two for about 4 years now, one as my daily driver at home
| and one that goes on the road with me. I have not needed to
| further upgrade either one beyond what I did initially when
| buying* them. So, with that in mind, I think use-case has a lot
| to do with whether or not someone can get away with running the
| more disposable cheap-but-good Thinkpad like I do.
|
| But >$800US for a Framework 13 that bends like a reed in the
| wind is not a smart choice for me. I really like their ethos of
| modularity, too, but there's just no way I'm hitting that cost
| anytime soon.
|
| *Note on buying Thinkpad from eBay: yes, collectors have ruined
| the price of some models, but not all. Lots of the X Series
| models are still very cheap, but please do not support sellers
| who are offering cheap laptops without a battery and power
| cable. Be patient and dig, you'll find the ones who are selling
| you a complete, useable machine for cheap. Unfortunately, eBay
| is flooded with a lot of vulture tech resellers that part
| perfectly good batteries from devices so they can make more
| money selling you both separately.
| kjs3 wrote:
| You hit on why I got my first used ThinkPad many years ago (a
| T42): it was so cheap as to be disposable. I was going on a
| trip that promised to be somewhat...ah...rough on my kit, and
| I picked up the T42 for dirt so I didn't take my new, very
| expensive laptop only to have it trashed (I don't remember
| what it was now...probably some Dell). The Dell(?) is loooong
| gone. The T42 made it through the trip fine, and over many
| years has gotten an SSD, a memory upgrade and a new screen
| (old one worked fine; wanted the pretty SXGA screen) and
| because it has a real, honest to gawd parallel port, it's
| still serving duty today controlling some stuff in my lab
| (PROM programmer, some finicky windows software, etc). It
| might not be a daily driver, but it gets fired up most every
| week to do real work.
| doublepg23 wrote:
| FYI- you can find 32GB DDR4 SODIMMs that'll work with the
| x260 :D
| M95D wrote:
| Let me say from the start that I only saw Framework laptops in
| pictures and I still have my old Lenovo X60 Tablet.
|
| I hate Framework laptops' design. They went to the extreme of
| repairability but only as a marketing tool, while the products
| are still e-waste trash.
|
| I looked at Framework 13 laptop as a replacement for my X60
| Tablet. Let me do a comparison between them: -
| FW13 battery swap needs dissasembly. Can't do it while on a
| train/bus/airplane. - X60 battery is removed by 2 spring
| latches on the back - FW13 has 2 internal expansion
| ports (M.2, I think), both permanently occupied by storage and
| wifi - X60 has 2 internal expansion ports (miniPCIe): one
| is occupied by wifi, one is for WWAN (optional). Storage is in
| a separate SATA bay. - FW13 has no external
| expansion slots, except if you count USB as expansion -
| X60 has 1 external expansion (PCMCIA/Cardbus type 2) - far more
| robust than USB-C, and the metal case provides cooling
| - FW13 has 4 USB-C ports, one is permanently occupied by the
| power cable - X60 has 3 USB-A ports (far more robust than
| USB-C), while charging is a separate barrel plug (also far more
| robust than USB-C) - FW13 has no video output,
| except as a USB adapter - X60 has VGA-out directly from
| the GPU - FW13 has no audio outputs, except as USB
| sound card - X60 has preamplified headphone-out and mic-
| in (also has internal microphone) - FW13 has video
| camera - X60 does not - FW13 has stereo
| speakers - X60 has a single mono speaker -
| FW13 has no ethernet, except as a USB adapter - X60 has
| gigabit ethernet Other things X60T has, but FW13
| doesn't: - Touchscreen with pen, some models work with
| finger too, some don't - great keyboard and also some
| extra hardware buttons such as volume, instead of key
| combinations - Fingerprint reader - SD card slot
| - Firewire - IR port, fax/modem (not much use these days)
| - An attachable dock (not wired like current USB docks) that
| can house a CD/DVD drive, or another HDD/SDD, or extra battery
| and has another 2 USB ports, RS232 and parallel port. -
| There's also an external battery module that directly connects
| to the docking port.
|
| Please note that the X60 is ~15 years old. This wasn't a
| performance comparison.
|
| So, yes, framework laptops are repaireable, but they're so
| crippled, there isn't much left in them to repair.
| Tade0 wrote:
| - FW13 has no video output, except as a USB adapter
| - FW13 has no audio outputs, except as USB sound card
|
| That was a conscious design decision, as you're supposed to
| use swappable expansion cards. Other things
| X60T has, but FW13 doesn't: - Fingerprint reader
|
| https://frame.work/pl/en/products/fingerprint-reader-
| kit?v=F... - SD card slot
|
| https://frame.work/pl/en/products/sd-expansion-card
| M95D wrote:
| > - Fingerprint reader
|
| My mistake.
|
| > That was a conscious design decision, as you're supposed
| to use swappable expansion cards.
|
| > - SD card slot
|
| Like I said. The laptop itself is very basic (crippleware
| by Lenovo standards). You have to use USB ports for
| everything, there are only 3 usable, and also mechanically
| very weak, not to mention performance, heat inside a closed
| plastic case, cost, etc.
| WillAdams wrote:
| As a person who uses devices w/ Wacom EMR digitizers by
| preference, the Thinkpad X###T line is one I _really_
| wanted to like, but the difficulty of getting a
| reasonable OS on one, with handwriting recognition, with
| manageable performance/thermal characteristics pushed me
| to the point that I gave up and moved on to a Asus
| Vivotab Note 8, and then a Toshiba Encore 2 Write 10 when
| it was offered.
|
| I keep telling myself I should try an X230T and Linux ---
| if there was a Framework device which supported Wacom
| EMR, I wouldn't have to. That said, my next major tech
| purchase is an rPi 5 and a Wacom Movink 13.
| cge wrote:
| > - FW13 has no audio outputs, except as USB sound card
| >That was a conscious design decision, as you're supposed
| to use swappable expansion cards.
|
| Also, unless something has changed or I am misinterpreting
| what they are saying, the fw13 _does_ have an audio output
| that is not an expansion card.
| Tade0 wrote:
| Indeed! I was not aware of that as I have the 16, which
| doesn't feature it.
|
| Community forum posts from 2021 suggest they sort of
| forgot to include this information initially.
|
| It so happens that the audio jack in my previous laptop
| started getting loose after four years, which was a
| first, as usually it was the USB ports which would go, so
| having it as an expansion card was a major selling point
| for me.
|
| This really is a device for people who tend to break
| things despite relatively light usage. I for one damaged
| the screen in every single laptop that I had.
| M95D wrote:
| As I said, I never saw the FW16 except in pictures and
| everything I know about it was from the net. I might be
| wrong about some of the things I wrote.
|
| So, does it really have a headphones jack or not?
|
| My X60T headphones jack only recently started to cause
| troubles after many many years of use, but it was an easy
| fix: drill 3 tiny holes in the connector casing and push
| a needle through each one to bend the contacts tighter.
| vhodges wrote:
| I don't know about the 16, but my 13 definitely does have
| one.
| Tade0 wrote:
| The F13 has it, the FW16 does not.
|
| Anyway, I'd rather just disassemble the expansion card
| and solder in a new port should this ever come to pass,
| as it's just a question of undoing two screws:
|
| https://community.frame.work/t/whats-inside-the-audio-
| expans...
| vhodges wrote:
| There's some mis-information here:
|
| Yep on battery - I rarely use mine while traveling (and
| rarely travel) and set max charge to 60% so it should last a
| good long time, but it can be replaced when I need too. I
| replaced _2_ in my black Macbook and once in my iPhone 3G
| (but I got 8 years out of the phone). When my work MB Pro had
| a battery bulge, the whole machine was replaced and
| presumably recycled since it was not repairable.
|
| Internal, yep, but nvme > SATA any day.
|
| They are usb-c yes, but the ports are adjustable (can mix
| usb-c, usb-a, display-port, hdmi, network, storage, etc) so
| it's not as restrictive as you seem to be implying.
|
| On video, I am not sure if you think it's some kind of
| DisplayLink thing but it's alt-dp over usb, directly
| connected to the GPU.
|
| My 13" has a headphone jack (and passable speakers) and a
| built in Mic (and both the camera and mic have switches to
| disable them).
|
| 2.5GB Ethernet is available as an expansion module.
|
| I find the keyboard and touch pad okay! I don't really need a
| touchscreen.
|
| On ports: I don't use the finger print reader (but it has
| one). I don't need SD card slot all that often (but is
| available). I don't have any FW devices (and 400Mbs vs
| 5-10Gbps). Don't need a modem or an IR Port
|
| I don't use a dock (I do at work for my MB Pro - but it's
| mostly a permanent desktop configuration so I don't mind that
| it's connected via usb-c). The one I got IS compatible with
| my Framework 13 though.
|
| I had a t61 for work and I loved it... in 2009 . I should
| have bought it from the company when I left but bought a
| black Macbook instead
| porphyra wrote:
| > FW13 battery swap needs dissasembly. Can't do it while on a
| train/bus/airplane.
|
| > X60 battery is removed by 2 spring latches on the back
|
| Yeah but the FW13 battery also lasts several times more than
| the battery life you get out of swapping two or three X60
| batteries on the train.
|
| Also, VGA out is useless in this day and age and USB-C is not
| only robust but also way faster and more capable.
| RecycledEle wrote:
| If Framework had used a ComExpress type 6 module in their
| laptops they would have had an upgradable processor.
|
| I wish someone would build a new laptop abound a ComExpress
| module and all the freely-open parts from a Framework laptop.
| jjice wrote:
| I love my Framework AMD 13. Coming from an old Thinkpad X1
| Carbon gen 3 I got used after a few years. Excellent form
| factor and oh so repairable. I've been very satisfied with the
| purchase.
|
| I'm really rooting for Framework over the next decade to really
| establish themselves and hopefully affect some change in laptop
| repairability. And hell, even if they don't, hopefully they'll
| be around so I can continue to be a customer.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| Not all, but a lot of ThinkPad fans enjoy the track point. No
| laptop without a track point can be considered a viable
| alternative for me :-/
|
| And thus, I have everything from a 14 year old t420s to my
| trusty t25 anniversary edition, and then a few workhorses with
| 8th gen Intels (x13 yoga, x1 carbon, t580) as personal and
| family laptops.
| dagw wrote:
| As someone who once loved the track point on my old IBM
| ThinkPad, I've found that for some reason every track point
| not made by IBM sucks. Even the modern Lenovo ones are
| terrible, and I have no idea why.
| NikolaNovak wrote:
| Interesting; I do find sometimes I need to go into the app
| and adjust the acceleration/sensitivity/speed to my liking,
| but even up to my current work Yoga (12th gen Intel), I
| used them preferentially to trackpad when on the move
| (ergonomic mouse when stationary). I have struggled more
| with Dells and HPs, but can usually get it "close enough"
| dagw wrote:
| To be fair, I went IBM -> Apple -> Lenovo, so it is
| conceivable that the track point is actually as good as
| it ever was, and I just got spoiled by how good the Apple
| trackpads are.
| mock-possum wrote:
| I just can't with the thinkpad's keyboard layout. The left
| function being swapped with the ctrl key is a nonstarter for me
| - you can't just put keys in the wrong place.
| prmoustache wrote:
| You can swap them in the bios/firmware.
| bdavbdav wrote:
| I'm not sure they're there yet. I bought a FW13 as I love the
| ideology, but it felt cheap next to the MBP/A, for not a lot
| less cash. When it arrived with a failed backlight (which
| admittedly they immediately offered to dispatch a replacement
| part), it went back instead.
| layer8 wrote:
| And nobody is making (classic) ThinkPad-style keyboards for the
| Framework laptops (yet? -- I'm not sure they have enough
| "headroom").
| huslage wrote:
| Framework laptops aren't really repairable in the same way that
| old Thinkpads are. Maybe that's good, maybe not, but replacing
| an entire motherboard every 3 years isn't all that different
| from replacing an entire computer really.
| ggpsv wrote:
| To add a data point here, my Framework laptop is 3 years old
| and I have no plans to change the mainboard anytime soon.
|
| Also, you don't change its motherboard, you change the
| mainboard (for my laptop, it's the CPU/integrated GPU +
| memory sockets); this is unlike changing the entire computer.
| Then, you can reuse the replaced mainboard as a server if you
| wish to.
|
| This pales with my experience using a Macbook Air whose
| motherboard failed. I did have to replace the entire
| computer.
| MostlyStable wrote:
| In what way can you repair and old Thinkpad that you can't
| repair a framework?
| numpad0 wrote:
| Wait, are you saying they don't offer the full HMMs and FRU
| list like IBM/Lenovo did/does for ThinkPads?????
|
| IBM HMMs, or creatively named Hardware Maintenance Manuals,
| were written so that if all steps in the document were
| performed from start to end as written, the laptop would be a
| pile of FRUs or Field Replacement Units, so that those FRUs
| can be inspected, discarded, ordered, and replaced, and then
| the process can be done in reverse to produce a working unit.
|
| Why - I mean I think I know why - they likely don't have
| enough control and/or influence over parts suppliers to be
| able to publicly expose those data unlike the Big Blue - but
| why...
|
| 0: https://download.lenovo.com/ibmdl/pub/pc/pccbbs/mobiles_pd
| f/...
|
| 1: https://thinkpads.com/support/hmm/hmm_pdf/42x3550_04.pdf
| boomskats wrote:
| I love my x2100. It is the machine I keep coming back to, and
| find more reliable and enjoyable than any other I've owned
| (including ones that outperform it on linux, like my oled
| ryzen-based t14s).
|
| I've been trying to rationalise why that's the case for years -
| whether it's the keyboard, the trackpoint, its ability to
| survive my casual brutality, some nostalgic emotional/romantic
| aspect, etc., but recently I've kinda Stopped Worrying and just
| unapologetically embraced it. I've been wandering around
| kubecon with it for the last couple of days and getting 9-10
| hours per battery and it hasn't skipped a beat.
|
| For anyone interested, there's a new project in town, the
| X210Ai [1]. I can't vouch for anything yet as I've not pulled
| the trigger myself, but I've been in touch with the vendor via
| whatsapp for the last couple of months, and they're legit
| enthusiasts.
|
| [0]: https://postimg.cc/Ty7PyKRx [1]:
| https://www.tpart.net/about-x210ai/
| cheeseomlit wrote:
| I still use my t420 all the time for one reason and that's the
| keyboard. I can't stand chiclet keys and that's all there is now
| dpedu wrote:
| > A [macbook] battery replacement involves carefully prying out a
| glued component.
|
| Can't speak to every model, but it's not always like this. I just
| swapped the battery on my 2020 M1 Macbook Air, and it's much
| easier now. The battery is glued to a metal tray that unscrews
| and lifts out of the laptop. It is discarded with the old
| battery. The tray is also held down with pull-tab adhesive
| strips, but they are trivial to remove - similar to what "command
| hooks" have.
|
| https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Air+13-Inch+Late+2020+B...
|
| I've also done a battery swap on a 2015 Macbook Pro 15" - much
| harder. Each individual battery cell is glued directly to the
| chassis, and removing each one involves a lot of prying and
| praying it doesn't puncture or decide to detonate.
|
| Back to the macbook air, I've also replaced the screen and USB-C
| ports. It's not that bad.
| mrheosuper wrote:
| I remember I had to take the whole MB out just to replace
| speaker on my Macbook pro 2015. It does not help that there
| were multiple different screw type
| asimovDev wrote:
| The USB-C ports are relatively easy to swap thankfully. What
| scares me is that on non Apple laptops they are sometimes
| soldered onto the motherboard which is asinine for such a high
| wear item. I heard it's prevalent in modern ThinkPads but I am
| not sure if it has changed recently
| testing22321 wrote:
| What replacement battery did you get for the 2020 M1 air?
| dpedu wrote:
| No specific brand, I had just searched ebay for "2020 macbook
| air m1 battery" and picked a seller with good ratings. Cost
| about $40. It's not even advertised as being a genuine apple
| one.
| commandersaki wrote:
| Does it have similar efficiency as the original?
| Tade0 wrote:
| That's great to hear, as I recommended this model recently to a
| relative but was worried about its repairability.
|
| I've only ever swapped the battery on a late 2011 MacBook and
| it was kept in place by three tri-wing screws - really simple
| procedure and reportedly the device is still in use. I would
| not attempt the same on a 2015 or 2019 model due to the glue
| situation.
| acquacow wrote:
| While the battery is glued down with adhesive, you can just
| soak it in some 91-99% isopropyl and that adhesive dissolves
| quite rapidly and the battery can be pulled right out. I had no
| issues doing this on my 2016.
| jeffbee wrote:
| The way 99.95% of customers would replace a macbook battery is
| to take it to the Apple Store and have them do it for a fixed
| charge while you wait. It's a great service. Apple will still
| replace the battery in your 2013 MacBook Air. By contrast there
| hasn't been a first-party battery pack for the T400 in many
| years.
|
| These "fragility" arguments always, as in the case of the OP,
| ignore the actual experience of owning and using the thing.
| People will adopt an ancient smartphone because they are locked
| into the idea that removable battery and removable SD cards are
| morally superior, and then blindly ignore the fact that the
| battery life sucks, the only batteries available are random
| chinese junk, the backs are easy to break and lose, SD cards
| are unreliable and easy to lose, and so forth. There is a
| _reason_ that the market overwhlemingly prefers phones and
| laptops with fixed storage and integrated battery packs.
| pram wrote:
| I appreciate the author going over the "strategic value" of both,
| but it seems like a desktop would fulfill the same purpose
| (modularity, repairability, linux) as the ThinkPad? Or,
| considering he obviously requires a more powerful machine than
| the T400 for LLMs and video editing: the MacBook? What is the
| point of two laptops in this case?
| comment_ran wrote:
| Pretty much the same trajectory. I started at my T420 around 2010
| and that time I just main laptop, computer. Then, as I have a
| more powerful desktop, this T420 becomes my secondary computer
| and I started to experience Linux with it. After almost 15 years
| I end up converted it into a PVE host and run just one or two
| virtual machines on it and it's quite durable I can still do
| functional work on it, quite remarkable how a computer can last
| so long.
| ajxs wrote:
| My x220 has traveled around the world multiple times. It's been
| through dozens of airport scanners, dropped multiple times, and
| shared a few cups of coffee with me by accident. It just keeps on
| kicking. My x220 running Debian is actually quicker and more
| responsive than my friend's modern Lenovo running Windows. I'd be
| tempted to upgrade to a lighter and thinner laptop, but I'm too
| attached to the keyboard.
| neilv wrote:
| One of the few things I'd change about the X220 is the strange
| 2-piece lid. (What looks like a cosmetic flourish in the lid is
| actually a seam.)
|
| Two of the four used X220 units I've bought arrived with the
| lid end piece wiggling, because it was no longer firmly
| attached to the main piece.
|
| The X200 and almost every other ThinkPad managed just fine with
| a 1-piece lid, including being rugged against drops, so I don't
| know why the change.
| nextos wrote:
| The X220 touchpad and fan were pretty mediocre. The rest was
| outstanding, unless you didn't upgrade the panel. I hate
| nothing similar can be bought brand new.
| intrasight wrote:
| Ahh x220. I have a most fond memory from 16 years ago. My
| daughter'sl laptop then was an x220 and the motherboard
| died so she and I, as a project one day, rebuilt the
| machine with a new motherboard. That X220 still works
| today. I told her a couple years ago that she could
| probably sell at any time for the same amount you bought it
| for.
| nextos wrote:
| A great compact design. Hopefully the new X13 is going to
| be a worthy successor.
| askvictor wrote:
| I provisioned several hundred x220's for the school I was
| working at, figuring they were the most bomb-proof thing at
| the time. The lid section you're talking about was
| definitively not bomb-proof. Thankfully, it didn't make much
| difference to the operation of the laptop, but still pretty
| annoying.
| neilv wrote:
| Good to know I wasn't just unlucky.
|
| Did you find any typical repairs for the lid section?
|
| (I haven't opened up my wiggly units yet, but I guess
| probably it got banged, and either screws were stripped out
| of their holes, or some internal plastic piece snapped.)
| Retr0id wrote:
| Yup, also a problem with my X220/X230 units. My most recent
| repair attempt involves nails expoxied in internally, fingers
| crossed it holds. My previous repair (a carbon fibre strip
| glued on externally) failed after a drop.
| mtreis86 wrote:
| The extra bit of the lid houses the antennas, it's plastic to
| not interfere with the signals as much as the magnesium would
| have. I do wish they could have attached it better or made
| the whole lid plastic over a magnesium frame or something.
| Phenix88be wrote:
| I have one too! The 720p is just not enough, I wish I could at
| least have a 1080p :(
| Retr0id wrote:
| It's possible to upgrade the panel - mine has a 1080p IPS.
| VK538FY wrote:
| Does it involve the LDVS board that you solder to the main
| board? I'm looking for a good source and one that doesn't
| cause problems with the setting for brightness.
| Retr0id wrote:
| Yes, got mine a few years back from taobao (I no longer
| remember specific details). IIRC the brightness control
| Just Worked _however_ the chip in charge of that seems to
| have failed at some point and now I 'm stuck at 100%
| brightness (I no longer daily-drive this thinkpad so I
| haven't bothered fixing it properly). Unsure if it's down
| to a design fault with the mod board or I just got
| unlucky.
| TaupeRanger wrote:
| Airport scanners? Are those normally dangerous to laptops?
| xdavidliu wrote:
| of course not. When you go through airport security, they
| give you trays where you put your backpack, laptop, and
| shoes. Happens every day with no problem.
| TaupeRanger wrote:
| Right that's why I'm wondering why the OP included it in a
| sentence along with "dropping" that implied the laptop had
| "been through some stuff".
| JansjoFromIkea wrote:
| Do you ever have any trouble at airports? The one time I ever
| had grief at an airport was a few years ago travelling with an
| X230 with the larger battery pack. Security seemed extremely
| suspicious of such an old laptop and I got stopped again later
| by a plain clothes security guy.
| senectus1 wrote:
| ha! I have one of those at home. I think it still works too.
| shmerl wrote:
| Side note, but I noticed now practically all Thinkpads are
| available with Linux as an option. That's a big improvement from
| when Windows tax was practically unavoidable with them.
| oever wrote:
| I recently tried to buy a ThinkPad with trackpoint and a high-
| resolution screen. The X1 AMD G5 is available with Linux but
| the 2880x1800 version is only available with Windows.
| Initially, I thought there was no 2880 version, because the OS
| selection comes before the screen selection in the Lenovo
| configuration tool. Once Linux is selected, the 2880 version
| disappears.
|
| It's not been delivered yet, but I'm sure installing Linux will
| not be a problem.
|
| A ThinkPad with ~14" 4k OLED touchscreen and trackpoint and AMD
| processor is what I was looking for, but those do not seem to
| exist.
| kev009 wrote:
| The 4k OLED and touchscreen kind of cancel each other out if
| you care about maximum optical quality.
| Melatonic wrote:
| At 14" doesn't 4K just seen like crazy overkill ? Sure on a
| laptop your face might be closer to the screen - but that's a
| lot of pixels in a small form factor. I'm still rocking 1440P
| 27" monitors for my desktop and find those good enough
| (although at that size you can see a benefit from 4K for
| sure).
| markus_zhang wrote:
| I still use my T470S as a Ubuntu 22.04 development machine. I
| bought it from my pre-pre-company as a used one back in 2022 and
| it is a fantastic laptop for personal projects. The only update I
| did was a 16GB RAM to up the memory to 20GB. I also bought a new
| battery as one of the two was dead.
|
| I wish the graphic driver could be better as playing Youtube
| videos constantly crashes Firefox on Ubuntu. Other than that I
| have nothing to complain. I have been using it for 3+ years with
| zero maintenance (I didn't even bother to clean the fan) and it
| never failed me.
|
| I have a second "new" Dell workstation laptop standing by just in
| case it breaks down. But it is a Windows machine with 32GB of
| memory, so I'll probably use WSL2 instead.
| arp242 wrote:
| > I wish the graphic driver could be better as playing Youtube
| videos constantly crashes Firefox on Ubuntu
|
| Do you have the xf86-video-intel driver installed? Try removing
| that package and just relying on the kernel modesetting DRI
| driver instead. That's been the recommended way to run Intel
| graphics for long time now.
|
| I don't know if that's your issue, but it this caused a lot of
| weird issues on my x270 with Firefox.
| anthk wrote:
| Get the oibaf PPA and dist-upgrade.
| Melatonic wrote:
| You could also try turning off hardware acceleration although
| that might kill performance.
|
| Not sure if the T470S had the Nvidia option but disabling
| Optimus (and going either fully with the Nvidia chip or
| integrated intel GPU) can also solve issues sometimes
| vvpan wrote:
| Off-topic about the Nassim Nicholas Taleb opening: Does anybody
| else feel like he just restates obvious things in a more
| formalized and somewhat pompous way? I do not mind formalization
| but I feel like I am supposed to swoon over it as if some
| profound truth, that was not already implied in our every day
| thinking, was being revealed.
| blatantly wrote:
| I don't think it is obvious to everyone that a 20 year old
| laptop had a better survival chance over the next year than a
| new one.
|
| Most people think old is more fragile.
|
| Sometimes it is though (e.g. parts for a plane need to be
| replaced every X hours of service)
| pazimzadeh wrote:
| at some point is it even the same laptop? I don't think the
| original laptop has a better chance of surviving
| darkwater wrote:
| It's not strictly THAT or ONE laptop though. It's the
| concept of old Thinkpad laptops in general: since there is
| already a big enough refurbishment market active, parts
| will still be produced or stored and sold, thus permitting
| that kind of laptop to be repaired and survive. Even if you
| apply the "ship of Theseus" logic, it won't matter. It
| won't be the same original Thinkpad, but it will still be a
| Thinkpad (flies like a Thinkpad, sings like a Thinkpad...)
| MonkeyClub wrote:
| > just restates obvious things in a more formalized and
| somewhat pompous way
|
| That's sort of the premise of his Black Swan idea, namely that
| extraordinary things appear quite obvious in retrospect.
|
| I've read a few of his books, including Antifragile that's
| referenced in TFA, and he does go beyond merely restating (or
| formalizing) the obvious.
|
| But then again perhaps such things are not generally obvious
| and need to be stated explicitly, we just happen to be part of
| a subset that is more aware of them.
| ggm wrote:
| I have an x31 from 2003/4 I'd love to rescue but the bios won't
| boot.
| frfl wrote:
| Where does one find a replacement battery for a thinkpad that
| doesn't die after 6 months?
|
| I spent $100 on what I thought was a legit and reputable local
| middleman for laptop batteries (of course they just buy from
| China), but even then first battery was half dead on arrival, and
| second free replacement was dead in around just under a year with
| rapid capacity decline after 6 months.
| pengaru wrote:
| kingsener batteries from aliexpress have been highly
| recommended in the past, but I haven't bought any yet.
| bigpeopleareold wrote:
| I bought a few. Only one was decent and still use it. For one
| of them I had, it never calibrated correctly and I think it
| was surging the motherboard (backlight on my screen just
| stopped working one day, but the computer just would keep
| turning off with it, leading to a lot of 'hold the power
| button down to clear the capacitors') ... the other one just
| doesn't charge past 65% anymore. Maybe that's a calibration
| issue; it sat awhile.
|
| I am going to look at another vendor. Maybe GreenCell?
| Melatonic wrote:
| iFixit also sells batteries although I have no idea how
| good they are. I thought their toolsets were decent value
| for the money though (and they'll probably be around as a
| company for awhile).
| ChuckMcM wrote:
| Heh, I've got a T440 [T420i, see edit] I'm running FreeBSD on.
| Definitely tank status. It is even one of the 'rare' HD ones.
|
| EDIT: I just turned it over to check and its a T420i Type
| 4177-X07 pretty much solid as a rock. I also discovered it would
| run with 16GB of RAM so there's that.
| zabzonk wrote:
| ThinkPads back when were certainly good, sturdy machines, though
| I could never get along with the nipple. Another great older
| machine for me was the purple Sony Vaio - magnesium alloy, came
| with Win2K installed. I bought one, and then immediately bought
| another - the first I repurposed as a Linux server and I carried
| them both (easily) around for demoing this and that.
|
| My latest, which I think is going to be in the ThinkPad and Vaio
| class is my new Asus Zenbook - brilliant light chassis and great
| performance.
| interloxia wrote:
| Yes the T30's nipple was a bit strange.
|
| https://www.flickr.com/photos/dctaft/413198278/
|
| I quite like the cup style trackpoint even if it tended to
| leave a small circle on the screen.
|
| That particular laptop died in middle age due to motherboard
| hardware defects.
| ptek wrote:
| I have a T43, slowly working on a VESA driver for NeXTSTEP 3.3
| (Yes there is a driver for OpenStep 4.2).
|
| Using Ghidra and the source that Apple released. Final set up
| will be, NeXTSTEP3.3, DOS6.22 (AutoCAD R12, Matlab), WinXP (For
| Encarta 95 and Mindmaze) and NetBSD.
| cft wrote:
| About 14 months after purchase, screen bezel of my MacBook
| cracked. Apparently there was a tiny food crumb jammed between
| the screen bezel and the keyboard bezel. It was then that I found
| out that the screen bezel is made of glass. And that Apple
| recommends to wipe the keyboard before closing the lid.
| interroboink wrote:
| Having run some hardware for about 20 years (recently deceased),
| the problem that eventually happens is that newer OSes drop
| support for old hardware. If you hit some weird bug on your setup
| on a new OS release, there won't be anyone to help you fix it[1].
| So then you're stuck on an old OS. In time, that means you can't
| run the latest userland software either, which relies on more
| modern OS features (eg: your Firefox will get increasingly out-
| of-date). That means the set of things you can do will eventually
| narrow and narrow.
|
| If you're only running programs that you have full control of,
| and can compile/fix locally, or where receiving security fixes
| &etc. don't matter, then you're good. But things are a bit more
| interconnected, these days.
|
| I do still enjoy running my hardware into the ground rather than
| tossing out perfectly good components every few years though (:
|
| [1] In my case, the boot loader stopped working for my hardware
| on FreeBSD 11.4
| yjftsjthsd-h wrote:
| > In my case, the boot loader stopped working for my hardware
| on FreeBSD 11.4
|
| That's interesting/strange. Did you report it? I'd expect them
| to care about that serious of a breakage in a point release.
| kjs3 wrote:
| Considering I've booted FreeBSD 11 on a Pentium Pro, I very
| much doubt "old hardware not supported" is really the GPs
| issue.
| interroboink wrote:
| I did! [1] There was some initial activity, and we got it
| narrowed down to a range of commits, but did not get any real
| smoking gun. To be fair, I also put in less effort once I
| found I could just copy the 11.3 loader and get things
| working. And also some stuff came up in my own life that
| prevented me from devoting more time to it, alas.
|
| It eventually got auto-closed for not being tagged to any
| non-EOL versions. I did recently confirm it was still a
| problem on newer releases, but that hardware died not long
| after, so I didn't pursue it.
|
| My best guess is that it was some BIOS-level oddity. It's
| also possible that it was due in some way to the hardware
| (slowly) dying; I can't be sure. But it was a very clear
| "worked on release X, stopped working on release Y (and
| beyond)" sort of behavior.
|
| [1] https://bugs.freebsd.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=257722
| wiz21c wrote:
| My home desktop PC, which I use daily for many things (but not
| dev since rust is way too slow), is 14 years old. For rust dev
| I connect to a virtual machine somewhere else.
|
| Thanks to Linux I have kept my memory need low (8GB IIRC)
| throwaway0665 wrote:
| I got an x220 jumping onto the hype but it was too small and too
| slow to use. Even though I'd maxed out the RAM, replaced the
| solder paste and was running a lightweight i3 environment.
|
| I've only ever personally owned second hand Thinkpads and they're
| so great. But you should get the newest, reasonably priced one
| you can. There are so many affordable T480s/T470s out there or
| even the newer T14 models. They're still very serviceable and
| many still allow expansion with unsoldered RAM.
| GolfPopper wrote:
| I'm posting from an X220 i7-2620M @2.7Ghz with 12GB memory.
| Personally, I like the size, but recognize that's a matter of
| taste. But, what was it too slow to do? For high-end computing
| tasks, yes. But I haven't run into problems with anything short
| of Steam games with higher-end graphics requirements.
| pbmonster wrote:
| > I got an x220 jumping onto the hype but it was too small and
| too slow to use. ven though I'd maxed out the RAM, replaced the
| solder paste and was running a lightweight i3 environment.
|
| That's my only personal laptop, to the last detail. What are
| you doing that makes it feel slow?
|
| I might upgrade to a x270 for the USB-C charging and a full-HD
| display, but only when this one dies. Which might take another
| decade...
| VirusNewbie wrote:
| Back in the day, I heard all sorts of great things about how
| durable Thinkpads were, I bought one with my hard earned money in
| ~2004 when doing contact web development work. It was my least
| reliable laptop I've ever had.
|
| My Vaio notebooks always lasted quite a bit longer. Eventually
| got a macbook and haven't gone back, but yeah, the one Thinkpad I
| owned was the least reliable computing device I've bought in the
| ~40 years of my lifetime.
| koinedad wrote:
| Something about the font on this blog is not friendly to my eyes.
| Willingham wrote:
| Absolutely. On mobile, the letters are too thin, certainly less
| accessible for us folks with eyesight issues.
| tyushk wrote:
| I run NixOS on a coreboot-ed T420 and I absolutely love
| everything on the outside, but it really shows its age when
| compared to the display on my Macbook or it comes to running
| heavier software ie. rust-analyzer, Chrome, or Nix builds.
|
| If Lenovo were to release a modern T420-like, with identical
| chassis, battery system and similar IO port variety, but a modern
| display, modern internals (replaceable SSD! soldered RAM at least
| has a case for performance) and a modern camera, cash would
| evaporate out of my wallet.
|
| I remember there was a person [1] modding T60/T61s into "T700"s
| with 11th gen Intel chips. Unfortunately it looks like the
| project's been quiet since 2022. Hopefully there'll be more who
| try.
|
| [1] https://www.xyte.ch/t700-crowdfunding/
| kombine wrote:
| T14 Gen 5 AMD is perhaps the current best you can go for with
| non-soldered RAM.
| theodric wrote:
| I have a P14s Gen 5 AMD, which afaik is just a T14 with some
| certifications, and it's flimsy. The whole chassis is plastic
| and quite flexible. It's also currently at a Lenovo service
| center because the battery lasted a whole month before
| failing and claiming to be "non-genuine."
|
| ThinkPads ain't what they were. My x230 is still going.
| kombine wrote:
| I wasn't aware of their build quality degradation. I've
| been using T14s Gen 3 for a year now and I thoroughly enjoy
| it, the chassis is magnesium and really sturdy. Something
| must have happened around Gen 5 time.
| wao0uuno wrote:
| I've never heard of a thinkpad without a replaceable ssd.
| mgiampapa wrote:
| I have a 25th Anniversary Edition Thinkpad, 7th gen i7 that I
| keep running PopOS specifically because it has the old magic
| style IBM keyboard. It's the only laptop I can stand typing on,
| but it's video card is getting so old in the tooth that it's
| starting to have problems with compatibility.
| ladyanita22 wrote:
| Doesn't NixOS hog on your hardware?
| Weetile wrote:
| It's very unlikely that performance would be hindered by a
| particular Linux distribution, but usually rather the desktop
| environment that it employs. NixOS with LXQt would run very
| differently to NixOS with GNOME.
| SuperSandro2000 wrote:
| How?
|
| The package manager needs more RAM than the average other
| package manager because it is doing a lot more behind the
| back.
| ladyanita22 wrote:
| Because it's source based and there's probably a ton of
| compilation in the background
| ivraatiems wrote:
| I love these old ThinkPads. I refurbish and sell them all the
| time. Just moments before writing this, I finished fixing up a
| T580; earlier today I did a heatsink replacement on a W510 which
| is going strong with an SSD and 20GB RAM.
|
| The older they are, the better they are, but even the modern ones
| are still pretty good. Like the OP mentions, the market for parts
| is strong and it's easy to get what you need. Then when you go to
| sell them, they sell for a good amount. That W510 is worth at
| least $100 in its current condition.
| trompetenaccoun wrote:
| >The older they are, the better they are
|
| Everyone agrees the build quality used to be better (my grandpa
| already said this about appliances from his youth). But one
| thing I almost never see discussed is the power consumption of
| these old devices. Older CPUs often double as room heaters.
| Modern ones, especially the Apple M-series, have become a lot
| more efficient. So while I agree that modern laptops suck in
| many ways, I would do the math to see if it's actually cheaper
| to buy and use an older computer. Maybe not if you're in Qatar
| or Russia but some countries have extremely high electricity
| costs.
| ivraatiems wrote:
| It just isn't really a measurable impact against an overall
| picture.
|
| At maximum, a T580 can draw 44 watts. 8 hours per day, 365
| days a year, at 50 cents a kWh (quite expensive for the US),
| that's $65 a year. That's a several-year-old computer
| already.
|
| The W520 can draw a much higher (but still low relative to a
| desktop) 150 watts. The cost per year to run it would then be
| around $220/year - but again, that's assuming maximum power
| draw for much of the day every day. Your home refrigerator
| uses more than twice that.
|
| For most people, I don't see this cost increase as a problem.
| ninalanyon wrote:
| My refrigerator doesn't use anything like 300 W average. An
| IKEA 310 l fridge is rated at less than 100 kWh per year.
|
| Even if you add a 210 l upright freezer to it is is still
| less than 300 kWh per year. That's 300 kWh / (365 * 24 h) =
| 34 W
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| For me power draw is about battery life. If you
| occasionally need to work without a power plug, or carrying
| your laptop from meeting to meeting all over the office,
| you really appreciate when the power lasts all day. My T14s
| battery draw of ~6.5W on the 57Wh battery will last me ~8
| hours, good enough for a day unplugged at the office. (I'd
| love a bigger battery, but it is what it is...)
| NullPrefix wrote:
| ThinkPads use 20V chargers. USB-C supports 20V power
| delivery. What's the efficiency of power adapters back then
| compared to current gen USB-C chargers?
| criddell wrote:
| I have a T520. What can I do to make this thing useful again?
| Even when new, the battery life was pretty awful.
| Vaslo wrote:
| I have one of these that was a tablet and touchscreen from my mba
| program in 2008. I still have it and put some version of Linux
| command line only (peppermint maybe) and it still works. Haven't
| touched it in a few years.
|
| Honestly was never that impressed by it and have had to replace
| the fans on it multiple times but it's still kicking while other
| laptops are not.
| coro_1 wrote:
| From what I know the entire purpose of the Macbook "Pro" line is
| literally that they're made to be modular. They were at least. I
| maintain a 2011 Pro. The build quality is noticeably nicer than
| the cheaper chassis they produce today. The experience itself is
| actually much nicer too, smoother, feels better. Added, modern
| displays have great resolution. But the aged units carry an
| interesting and rich in depth projection ability you don't find
| today.
| rmnclmnt wrote:
| Agreed. Brought back to life my MBP 2015 last summer (battery
| replacement, keyboard replacement, thermal paste, etc) and
| thanks to OpenCore Legacy Patcher, now running latest MacOS
| versions ensuring at least 3 years more of security patches.
| Also these machines run Linux and Windows pretty fine
| dmwilcox wrote:
| Wow! Just discovered OpenCore Legacy Patcher! My wife's ten
| year old Macbook Air can get updates!!
|
| Thank you for the tip this will help a lot since it is not
| the "year of the Linux desktop" for her. :)
| rmnclmnt wrote:
| Try to give it a shot first on a dedicated partition if you
| can, then make the switch (IME, I used the old SSD drive
| for that, then used the 1TB one for daily usage with OCLP).
| Pretty smooth for most users apparently. Good luck, keep
| repairing and maintaining old electronics!
| maratc wrote:
| Modularity hasn't been the proclaimed goal for the Pro line, as
| far as I can remember. Granted, they _were_ modular once.
| Today, not so much. The RAM is literally sitting on the die of
| the chip that includes the CPU and the GPU. This allows for
| tremendous increases in performance, but RAM upgradeability is
| sadly out of question.
| dangus wrote:
| I think this is something of a rose tinted glasses nostalgic
| look.
|
| I remember my iBook G4 took 30 screws to get into it and swap a
| hard drive.
|
| Yes, it was "modular," but it wasn't specifically designed to
| be easily repaired.
|
| There have been times when the systems were designed to be easy
| to change components like the disk and RAM in the original Core
| 2 Duo MacBooks, but these seem to be the exception, not the
| rule.
|
| Let's not forget the "no user serviceable parts" original
| Macintosh. Apple has never really been repair-oriented company,
| they just occasionally make products that are coincidentally
| easy to repair.
| BrenBarn wrote:
| I'm really bummed to see how newer ThinkPads have given up that
| modularity. Some components are necessarily more integrated, and
| I was never going to be too sad if it was easier to buy a new
| laptop than to replace the CPU. But the fact that you could, for
| instance, trivially replace the hard drive made it ludicrously
| easy to get a lot of extra mileage out of old ThinkPads.
| rkagerer wrote:
| I still drive a Dell Precision M6600 from 2011, and liken the
| build quality, robustness and modularity of that era of the
| product line to the Thinkpads being discussed here.
|
| I'm overdue to upgrade, but know I won't love its replacement
| anywhere near as much.
| ipv6ipv4 wrote:
| I have a PowerBook titanium G4 from 2003 that I can boot but
| never bother because it's not worth the power consumption.
| dmwilcox wrote:
| Really??? I had an iBook from 2001, and put Linux on it, but
| power consumption was definitely the best of laptops in that
| entire era. What could it be, like 20-30 watts? Motorola PPC
| processors weren't exactly heat beasts (or speed demons lol).
|
| I'd be curious about how yours has held up. I overclocked my
| iBook back in the day to play DivX (bumped FSB from 66 to
| 100mhz) and it eventually cooked around 2010.
| namirez wrote:
| I still have my T61 thinkpad from 2007. Other than the dead
| battery, it works great.
| jmclnx wrote:
| I purchased a battery for my T61 from GHU Electronics a year
| ago. So far no issues.
| ruleryak wrote:
| I booted up my Thinkpad 760 XL from 1997 recently and let it run
| for a couple days. My WinZip was more than 9000 days past
| expiration, and it counted up one by one, the number just
| spinning ever upward for the better part of half an hour. 2 of
| the 3 batteries I had for it still charged to above 90% and
| drained at the normal rate, so I could still run it unplugged for
| around 6 hours. The batteries were modular, so you could have a
| cdrom, floppy, or battery in the first bay and a battery in the
| second bay. I normally ran it with 2 batteries and an external
| pcmcia cdrom that ran on double-a's. For a 28 year old laptop, it
| was still incredibly usable.
| zie wrote:
| Reading this from my t420s, it's only 11yrs old.
| ed_mercer wrote:
| There's nothing out there that matches the bold business look and
| feel of old thinkpads, my personal favorite being the x61. These
| machines are so well-built and beautiful, and I respect and
| understand the decision to try and keep them running. But I would
| respect a restomod more =)
| quailfarmer wrote:
| The tightness of hardware integration isn't a bug, it's genuinely
| a feature; In fact, it's the defining feature that makes Apple
| hardware great. Socketed RAM, CPU, and Storage just weren't worth
| the tradeoffs, namely size, weight, cost, and performance.
| Including those modular interfaces just wasn't worth it when the
| internal interfaces would be obsolete within 5 years, and the
| average user was replacing sub-components 0 times over the life
| of the device.
|
| The user being able to swap parts easily is _neat_ but it's just
| not an required feature, any more than the user of a car being
| able to easily hot-swap the engine. The right level of
| integration provides a tradeoff the maximizes reliability, cost,
| performance, and repair. A professional can still replace almost
| any component of a modern laptop, with a few thousand $ of
| specialized tools, and the battery, the only component with a
| fixed lifetime, can be easily replaced at home.
|
| I really hope Framework can continue to develop hardware with
| documented repairability, without falling for the myth that tight
| integration and quality are mutually exclusive.
| globular-toast wrote:
| Sad but true. Most people don't do much with the things they
| own, even if they can. Cars get serviced when they are told to,
| by someone else. No modifications are done. It's a weird thing
| to me because you get the downsides of ownership (liability for
| servicing and repairs) but none of the upsides.
|
| I wish more people took direct control over their lives. But
| many are just happy to not think and put up with whatever they
| get.
| NullPrefix wrote:
| >Cars [...] No modifications are done
|
| In a lot of places that is highly illegal
| globular-toast wrote:
| Really? Where? In the UK it's legal as long as it still
| passes MOT, but it should be declared to your insurer.
| zenolijo wrote:
| > A professional can still replace almost any component of a
| modern laptop, with a few thousand $ of specialized tools, and
| the battery, the only component with a fixed lifetime, can be
| easily replaced at home.
|
| Even if a professional can fix it, that expertise to be able to
| use those tools worth "a few thousand dollars" costs a lot too,
| likely pushing the price high enough that its worth thinking
| about buying a new device instead.
|
| While the battery might be the only thing with a fixed
| lifetime, other components often also break. I was unlucky and
| owned a ThinkPad with one soldered on RAM module and one
| socketed slot to be able to upgrade the RAM, but that didn't
| help the day that the soldered on RAM died on me.
| bux93 wrote:
| It's not just price. The market for this expertise is also
| not very deep and liquid. If I have to get a laptop repaired,
| what are my choices? Send it off to the manufacturer/importer
| if it's still under warranty, and get it back in maybe two
| months. Drop it off at a shop that does also phone repairs
| and hope they don't wreck it?
|
| Realistically I don't know anyone with my specific kind of
| problem who's used their services before, so I don't really
| know their reputation. It's not like walking into a
| supermarket, or even getting a car repaired where you have
| some sense of the likelihood it will take as long as they
| say, cost as much as they say and actually succeed. There's
| much greater information asymmetry.
|
| Of course, given how unattractive it is to get something
| repaired, more people will be inclined to just buy something
| new, resulting in less demand for repairs, resulting in less
| supply, less attractive repair market, etc.
|
| Repairability (at home, by relative morons) also means more
| repair shops, because less repairability means death of a
| repairs market.
| d3nj4l wrote:
| Apple is actually really fast with repairs. I got my MBP
| back in about a week when I sent it in under the limited
| warranty, not even Apple Care.
| maiinablegkri wrote:
| >Even if a professional can fix it, that expertise to be able
| to use those tools worth "a few thousand dollars" costs a lot
| too, likely pushing the price high enough that its worth
| thinking about buying a new device instead.
|
| This is generally a problem in taxation than the devices.
| Consider I want to have an electrician fix my broken
| wallsocket:
|
| >Billed for 100EUR/hour
|
| >Out of which expenses for moving using a workcar,
| calculating by officially recognized tax administration car
| wear value 0,59EUR/km for 5km both ways, so ~6EUR, 94EUR
| remains
|
| >VAT is 25,5%, leaving you with ~70EUR
|
| >Paying for mandatory employer's portion of pension 17,5%,
| leaving us with ~57,75EUR
|
| Now the employee gets 57,75EUR, out of which following are
| deducted:
|
| >Income tax for average electrician: 26%, ~15EUR
|
| >Employee's part of mandatory pension: 7,15%, ~ 4,1EUR
|
| >Municipal taxes: ~8% depending on municipality ~ 4,6EUR
|
| So 57,75EUR - 23,7EUR = ~34EUR
|
| There are also various single or partial percent taxes that
| slightly affect the outcome, and companies often want some
| sort of profit instead of directly giving 100% to the single
| employee.
| bkor wrote:
| > Socketed RAM
|
| CUDIMM is changeable and fast.
|
| > The user being able to swap parts easily is _neat_ but it's
| just not an required feature
|
| Mostly because people seem to have forgotten that it was
| possible. Often laptops are slow to due either a too full disk
| and/or not enough memory. It used to be more common to upgrade
| those. But apparently that knowledge/skill is forgotten and
| it's now more custom to buy a new device.
|
| Being able to change those saves money IMO.
| thowawatp302 wrote:
| Nah, personally? I know it's possible, I've done it, and I
| just do not care anymore.
|
| not worth it
| op00to wrote:
| It's certainly not worth it. I don't think that, for
| laptops, RAM requirements are increasing nearly as fast as
| they did 10 years ago. I spec 64GB for my laptops today,
| and if I could have afforded it, I would have specced 64GB
| 10 years ago too.
| quailfarmer wrote:
| It's faster, but a big reason apple silicon is ahead is
| because the memory is co-packaged on an MCM. This is the
| direction things are going.
| bkor wrote:
| I noticed I made an error when remembering the memory type
| I saw a while ago.
|
| I meant the following:
| https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAMM_(memory_module)
|
| That's a way to have the memory close, but still being able
| to change it (without e.g. hot air station or something).
| nottorp wrote:
| Not sure about that, although having those fixed short
| traces probably helps with speed, considering the stupid
| DDR5 negotiation on boot.
|
| The real reason however is that going up SoC SKUs at apple
| gives you more memory channels. Those bandwidth increases
| you see in specs are because of that, not because the
| memory is soldered.
| culopatin wrote:
| People as in the general population were not doing it, just
| us weirdos.
|
| I funded my early career years by doing IT for home users of
| all sorts of expertise and budget and I feel like I got a
| decent gauge at what the average user did during the
| replaceable hardware era.
|
| The people in the middle class and below would end up with
| such a shit device out of the gate (those 400-600usd laptops
| at the time, lower outside of the us), that by the time they
| started complaining about slowness, the upgradeable things
| did not make a difference. 1 to 2gb ram with a shit Celeron?
| Hardly worth the money. Bottom shelf Core2duos, overheating,
| cracking hinges, etc.
|
| Not to mention that even then not all laptops were very
| standard in the way they were built. Taking one apart could
| be very time consuming and they would pay by the hour for me
| to do it, so after labor it was above what the device was
| worth and it would only buy them a few months of time at
| most. You do that once and you realize next time you'll get a
| desktop.
|
| The richer people would just get MacBooks and only call me
| for software stuff.
|
| Companies had thinkpads and once purchased would never go out
| the standarized build. Just swap them when out of warranty,
| or at the time most would actually work at a desk with a
| desktop and leave work at work.
| myaccountonhn wrote:
| I think it's an attitude worth challenging. The minerals
| required to build these laptops are limited, and one day we
| will have to realize this and care for what we own.
| simgt wrote:
| Easily swappable components also increase resources
| consumption. We don't necessary want or need to be able to
| fix all the parts of our laptops or cars (or shoes!) at home,
| but we definitely want and need a local professional to be
| able to do so for a reasonable cost.
| gwbas1c wrote:
| Chips have a limited lifespan too. It doesn't matter if you
| can swap a module in your laptop, at some point all those
| chips will need to be recycled.
| timewizard wrote:
| Since display technology does not update as fast as CPU
| technology, and keyboard technology rarely updates anymore at
| all, you might still expect the entire mainboard assembly to be
| upgradeable.
|
| Would certainly be more "green."
| notpushkin wrote:
| For storage in particular, iBoff made an adapter for NAND chips
| that places them on a carrier board:
| https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E3N-z-Y8cuw
|
| The whole setup (allegedly) fits inside original chassis, too,
| and disk speeds are about the same. So the only real tradeoffs
| for Apple are cost and the fact that user can swap in third
| party parts instead of paying obscene prices Apple charges for
| spec upgrades.
| xandrius wrote:
| If being able to replace a part requires me to have a
| screwdriver (literally a Philips one should do), the component,
| and no additional PhD or bravery coming from youth,
| inexperience or both, I will welcome it with open arms.
|
| Right now, having devices which require both expertise and
| expensive machinery means that the cost of going to someone to
| repair it will increase over 10 folds, making a full
| replacement a financial and sound choice.
|
| If my CPU doesn't last for 10 years but I can change it myself
| in minutes, I would rather that than throwing away everything
| else I still love and is still functional just for promised
| extended reliability (which is just a matter of statistics and
| profit margins at the end of the day).
| bartread wrote:
| > If being able to replace a part requires me to have a
| screwdriver (literally a Philips one should do), the
| component, and no additional PhD or bravery coming from
| youth, inexperience or both, I will welcome it with open
| arms.
|
| You have to understand though that people like us are a tiny
| minority.
|
| Increasingly I hate creating waste, especially e-waste, and
| so I'll tinker with things to get them working or upgrade
| them, but most people don't want the hassle.
| sitkack wrote:
| I have taught at least three people how to do simple
| repairs and upgrades on laptops.
|
| Anyone that can read and use their brain can strip a laptop
| down to components and reassemble it.
| culopatin wrote:
| Ok, but you're missing the point and reassuring OPs.
| Three people might as well be zero.
| fsflover wrote:
| It doesn't matter how many people do it as a hobby.
| Making a repair easier makes professional repair/upgrade
| cheaper, enabling poorer people to do it, thus decreasing
| the overall waste dramatically.
| sitkack wrote:
| I am not. If we continue to sit on our hands talk down
| about "most people" aren't interested in XYZ, we are the
| problem.
|
| Armchair dipshits like to slag on Louis Rossmann, but did
| lead repair sessions where he would teach people how to
| do hot air pcb rework. Dude walks the talk and empowers
| people.
|
| You are missing my point.
| urda wrote:
| You're venting, not arguing. Teaching three people
| doesn't scale, and anecdotes aren't data.
|
| No one's dismissing Rossmann or the value of empowerment.
| The problem is acting like isolated efforts equal
| systemic change. If this were as easy as you claim, the
| landscape would reflect that.
|
| So yes, you're missing the point. Passion is fine, but
| without policy, infrastructure, and incentives, it goes
| nowhere.
| sitkack wrote:
| > without policy, infrastructure, and incentives, it goes
| nowhere.
|
| So how do we start?
| brewtide wrote:
| How do you think policy of any sort gets it's origin?
|
| Same token, sounds like you're arguing, not doing.
| xandrius wrote:
| I don't think many throw away their remote controller when
| the batteries run out. So why do we do that for laptops?
| Because it makes them 2cm thinner?
|
| I believe this change benefits 100% the companies imposing
| them, consumers always have a tech-enthusiast around to ask
| if needs be.
| culopatin wrote:
| Rechargeable remotes like the Samsung one, yes. My dad
| tried to fix it and I had to get him a new one lol.
| masswerk wrote:
| That said, I've a MacPro 3.1 in production (also 17 years now -
| always up), which is from Apple's era of easily (or even hot)
| swappable parts. Apart from failing 3rd party RAM, no issues
| ever. - And I'm probably going to upgrade the drives to SSD
| (still HDD) this year, since you can still get new upgrade
| parts for its ancient busses.
|
| (And for the failing RAM: open the hood, a LED tells you which
| strip is failing, swap it, close, go on... The build quality is
| quite amazing, BTW.)
| op00to wrote:
| I'm a huge Thinkpad fan. I'm an even bigger MacBook fan.
|
| None of my MacBook Pros ever had any issues, and I used my
| last MacBook for 9 years. I could keep using it with Linux
| instead of MacOS, but I think almost a decade of use is
| plenty of value for me.
|
| There were recalls and scandals with the MacBook Pro over the
| years, but nothing that other vendors also didn't see, and
| that wouldn't have required the same exact parts being
| replaced. I'm thinking of the GPU issues with certain
| MacBooks. The difference is Apple is usually able to be held
| to task to fix issues, while almost any other vendor did not
| care to stand behind their product, including Lenovo.
|
| I had a Lenovo Thinkpad X1 Carbon with the HiDPI screen that
| was absolutely awful, requiring replacement multiple times.
| Each time, the moron from Unisys that Lenovo sent to do the
| on-site repair would return me with a laptop that was poorly
| reassembled, and with new problems due to the tech's
| ineptitude. The same dude did service for Lenovo servers, and
| he once dropped a server that needed a fan replaced on the
| floor. Talk about fragile.
|
| Thinkpads are great, and the oldest ones are still solid to
| use, but to say that MacBooks are fragile ignores that
| Thinkpads too are fragile.
| dahauns wrote:
| >The difference is Apple is usually able to be held to task
| to fix issues, while almost any other vendor did not care
| to stand behind their product, including Lenovo.
|
| Sorry, but this is a joke. "any other vendor did not care
| to stand behind their product"? _Give me a break_.
|
| Apple has been time and again the champion of denying
| issues with their products until lawsuits forced their
| hand, often settling without admitting wrongdoing.
| Bendgate, Batterygate, MBP nVidia, MBP AMD, Butterfly
| keyboard, just off the top of my head. (Again: My criticism
| here is about how Apple handled them.)
|
| "You're holding it wrong" is a meme for a reason (that
| didn't result in a lawsuit, though IIRC)
| op00to wrote:
| Every hardware vendor has problems. Suggesting that Apple
| is uniquely bad while others "stand behind their
| products" doesn't hold up. The difference is that Apple,
| after enough pressure, actually fixes things. They create
| repair programs, offer recalls, and have the
| infrastructure to make things right. Most vendors don't.
| Let's look at the examples you listed.
|
| Butterfly keyboard
|
| Yes, a bad design. But Apple launched a repair program
| that covered every affected MacBook for multiple years. I
| was affected by this, and had my keyboard replaced twice.
| Compare that to Lenovo's ThinkPad coil whine and sleep
| bugs, which they never publicly acknowledged and never
| fixed. Users were told it was "within spec."
|
| Batterygate
|
| Apple throttled devices to preserve battery life and
| didn't communicate it well. After the backlash, they
| launched a battery replacement program and settled a
| class-action lawsuit. HP had massive issues with failing
| batteries and Nvidia GPUs no meaningful recall, just
| silence.
|
| MBP GPU failures
|
| Apple ran logic board replacement programs for both sets
| of failures. They repaired machines years out of
| warranty. Microsoft, on the other hand, ignored Surface
| Pro 4 screen flickering for over two years, then limited
| their replacement program to a narrow window, leaving
| many customers stuck.
|
| Bendgate
|
| Apple initially downplayed it, but the iPhone 6 Plus was
| later included in a touchscreen repair program. Compare
| that to Asus ROG Zephyrus early models that ran hot,
| warped, and suffered fan noise issues. Users got nothing
| but "working as intended" responses.
|
| "You're holding it wrong"
|
| A tone-deaf response. But they gave out free bumper cases
| to all iPhone 4 customers, no strings attached. Dell's
| XPS 15, meanwhile, had persistent audio latency and
| trackpad issues over multiple generations, and they never
| rolled out a formal fix or support campaign.
|
| Apple has problems, yes. But they also have stores,
| trained techs, and formal programs that actually address
| the issues. The service experience isn't perfect, but it
| exists. With most other vendors, you're stuck mailing
| your device to a third-party contractor who might show up
| late and leave you worse off.
|
| Apple doesn't get a free pass. But pretending they're
| worse than companies who ghost their customers when
| things go wrong doesn't line up with reality.
| dahauns wrote:
| I don't know why you feel the need for a play-by-play - I
| know, I was affected by several of them. And every single
| one of them was Apple reacting only after prolonged
| active denial and deflection culminating in lawsuits.
| There's nothing to defend here.
|
| Kinda sad that that you feel the need to bring random
| other issues into the mix (Coil Whine, really? LOL,
| remember the MBP "Moo"?) coupled with outright lies (of
| course HP issued recall programs - for both the NVidia
| GPUs and the batteries).
|
| >The service experience isn't perfect, but it exists.
| With most other vendors, you're stuck mailing your device
| to a third-party contractor who might show up late and
| leave you worse off.
|
| No, with serious vendors, you're not. It seems you've
| never experienced real business on-site service. (And
| yes, it was still cheaper than AppleCare.)
|
| > But pretending they're worse than companies who ghost
| their customers when things go wrong doesn't line up with
| reality.
|
| Neither does pretending that's all that exists (or even
| being the norm with high-end gear).
| wwweston wrote:
| > Apple's era of easily (or even hot) swappable parts.
|
| This. It existed. The laptops still commanded enthusiasm,
| felt great, capable, and solid without being too heavy, and
| had swappable RAM and disk. Keyboard and battery swap were
| screwdriver set DIYs. Heck, the old Pismos had hot swappable
| _battery_ and drive bays.
|
| I'm still frequently using a MacBook Pro 11,3. Only lets you
| swap the drive but that by itself is a great point of
| flexibility.
|
| The M series does amazing things which have their own merits,
| but the particular set of tradeoffs aren't inevitable.
|
| The "sacrifices must be made" idea apparently sacrifices
| recall of other possibilities first.
| goldchainposse wrote:
| > failing 3rd party RAM
|
| Unless you're Samsung, almost all RAM is 3rd party. It's
| either Sammsung, SK Hynix, or Micron.
| masswerk wrote:
| Since the early 1990s, I had never a single Apple factory
| provided RAM fail, but certainly severals from 3rd parties
| - in the very same machines. And, of course, I've been too
| greedy to pay the premium... (But, in the end-run, this has
| probably been more expensive and certainly more of a
| hassle.)
| porphyra wrote:
| The physical socket also introduces a new point of failure. In
| the olden days there was often "ram was bad but taking it out
| and reseating it in the socket fixed it", which can be avoided
| by just having it be on the same physical chip.
| yu3zhou4 wrote:
| Respect! I still run x230 with Linux for fun and so my kids can
| smash the keys on the keyboard (btw imho the keyboard feeling is
| better than in any laptop I used since then) and they feel good
| about themselves that they do the same thing as dad
| trod1234 wrote:
| I'm surprised they didn't mention how many of the Thinkpad models
| encase heatsink fan power cord in kapton tape and run that cord
| along and above the CPU/GPU shared heatsink. The modular assembly
| fails reliably and consistently roughly every 3 years.
|
| Sure I can get parts, but I don't think it actually shows what
| they are trying to say.
| kombine wrote:
| I am daily driving ThinkPad T14s Gen3 AMD that I bought off Ebay
| a year ago. It was opened but new with warranty until 2026 and I
| only paid for 600 British pounds for it. It is not as repairable
| as their other models but it has a premium quality build, a
| modern CPU and full Linux compatibility. It is also the first
| generation of T14 when they returned 16:10 screens, this aspect
| ratio is a must for coding. ThinkPads are seriously underrated.
| jbaiter wrote:
| I have the same, and I'll probably use it until it's dead. I
| love the screen for the same reason you mention. It's a damn
| shame that they put the ugly reverse webcam notch on the newer
| ThinkPads, it ruins the complete look :-/
| kombine wrote:
| Yeah, same, mine has 32G RAM so it will last me 10 years or
| so, and hopefully Lenovo will remove the webcam notch by then
| :)
| 28304283409234 wrote:
| Wish there was a company that would build upgrades to old
| ThinkPads. A new main oard that would fit snugly in my x230 for
| example.
| zh3 wrote:
| T42, T60, T62, T420, T520 (multiples of some around the house)
| here, ending at the point they changed the keyboard. All running
| linux, the T420 and T520 (with SSD's) are fine with modern
| browsers while the older ones can be slow on bloated sites. I
| imagine the RAM might be an issue with multiple electron apps
| though.
|
| Only real maintenance is to use quality battery replacements
| (T420 lasts particularly well on batteries).
| diggernet wrote:
| Got a good source for safe, reliable battery replacements? Last
| time I needed one I discovered that Duracell made them, but it
| seems like they've stopped now.
| zh3 wrote:
| In the UK, laptopsandspares.com "2-power" batteries have
| worked well for me. Subtel are pretty good too for UK/EU.
|
| https://www.laptopsandspares.com/pno/cbi3402a.html
|
| https://www.subtel.co.uk/Battery-for-Lenovo-ThinkPad-
| Edge-14...
| justmarc wrote:
| These are very well built machines.
|
| To keep them running for decades Linux or other open source
| operating systems are pretty much the only choice. Not only for
| performance (which is better) but also because Windows will phase
| old hardware support out, it's just what they've always done, and
| will always continue doing.
| inatreecrown2 wrote:
| I bought a x220 about 10 years ago, and then a x230 a couple
| years ago. I also have a M1 Pro 16 inch but sometimes I enjoy
| working with the Thinkpads more than that. I really wish we could
| get a modern system that was build like the old Thinkpads.
| Especially regarding overall Size, repairability, connectivity
| and Keyboard.
| inatreecrown2 wrote:
| Oh I forgot to add: they both work perfectly fine still!
| HexPhantom wrote:
| This is a fantastic breakdown, and it nails something I think a
| lot of people feel but don't always articulate: modern hardware
| is often objectively better, but not necessarily more resilient
| chilldsgn wrote:
| I would love to get a ThinkPad as my next computer. My 2018
| MacBook Pro is still working amazingly well, but I think I won't
| get a new one.
| HexPhantom wrote:
| There's something satisfying about how fixable and
| straightforward they are
| globular-toast wrote:
| This is why I've always preferred full size PCs. But if I were to
| get a laptop it sounds like it would be a 17 year old ThinkPad.
| Are the newer ones the same? This wasn't clear in the article.
|
| My PC is ten years old now. It's always run GNU/Linux and feels
| noticeably snappier than more recent machines with their bloated
| software. I've maxed out the CPU and RAM on it, overclocked it,
| added a nice AMD workstation GPU so I could run two 4k screens. I
| guess the thing is it really feels like I _own_ it. I don 't feel
| the same about phones and tablets.
| jxjnskkzxxhx wrote:
| You can run an LLM on a Mac laptop?
| 4fterd4rk wrote:
| They're quite good at it, actually.
| pengaru wrote:
| Writing this on my 16GB RAM i7 X230... but I really miss my X61s
| w/SXGA+ LED mod, perfect keyboard for my sized hands.
| brailsafe wrote:
| I replaced my 2019 Macbook Pro 13" i5 16gb/256gb, with an M4 Pro
| 48gb/1TB 16". It just wasn't worth it anymore, it would stall
| opening some large files, the fans would spin up for inexplicable
| reasons, the screen was mid... it was just barely serviceable for
| my needs and wasn't worth being so frugal about anymore. Yes
| technically I could use something from the 80s to write text
| files if I wanted to most of the time, and I'm somewhat anxious
| about the possibility that some component soldered to the MB will
| short one day and kill my SSD, but it's still quite a worthwhile
| upgrade.
| bzzzt wrote:
| Are you worried about your SSD or the data on it? Making a
| backup will probably significantly reduce your anxiety ;)
| brailsafe wrote:
| I've got backups, but I'm more worried about the possibility
| that the computer will just kill itself one day, possibly
| resulting from some component failure.
| mgaunard wrote:
| My computer is about that age as well, didn't know that was
| abnormal or special.
| DeathArrow wrote:
| >Despite their age, these business-class laptop are still
| serviceable and useful for web browsing, 'office work', and light
| coding.
|
| In the world of Javascript frameworks where you download and
| execute 100 MB for a web application?
|
| In the world of desktop applications written in Javascript?
| DeathArrow wrote:
| Here is someone using the same T400 as daily driver:
|
| https://www.reddit.com/r/thinkpad/comments/1hakly7/the_think...
| wazoox wrote:
| I have a ~2009 MacBook. It has a swappable battery (replaced
| once, dead again), and it was overall easily upgradable : it
| received a 4GB RAM stick to replace its original 2GB
| (unfortunately it can't manage more than 3.5GB), an SSD to
| replace its hard drive, and a new DVD drive as its superdrive
| failed. However its core2 Duo is really too slow for the modern
| web (either running MacOS or Linux), it takes almost a full
| minute to open a youtube link. I should probably downgrade to 32
| bits Linux to get back some speed, but it won't become exactly
| snappy anyway :)
| acquacow wrote:
| You should be able to do a 2gig + 4gig stick combo. That's what
| I have in my 2008 Macbook pro, it runs 6GB just fine.
| nonrandomstring wrote:
| Got a 2005 Asus EEPC netbook hanging around that is still part of
| the family and does useful work. Battery still good (replaced
| twice) and a few scratches on the screen and a broken key. Took
| it on the train with me recently as I just needed to read some
| PDF files and so scpd them to it and threw it in a bag.
|
| Looking after electronics, repairing stuff and treating it with
| respect is just part of my way. That one has an old Puppy Linux
| on it. Works fine.
|
| The original sense of the word "materialism" is a respect for
| material things - it's a very positive word. But it changed in
| the 80s (probably after Madonna's "Material Girl" :) to mean
| something negative and shallow.)
| zlagen wrote:
| the most annoying thing about new laptops is how difficult is to
| find replacement batteries that can be trusted and work well. The
| battery situation is a downgrade compared to the previous
| pluggable ones.
| anshumankmr wrote:
| I have an ASUS laptop that is borderline unusable in three years,
| the only saving grace is the RTX 3060 which I use for gaming and
| occasionally ollama.
| KronisLV wrote:
| I currently have an M1 MacBook that I needed for some development
| (iOS) but now use it for notes and presentations and back up any
| data on my Nextcloud and homelab. Before that, I had a 210 EUR
| Polish laptop (I think whitelabel Chinese stuff) that would run
| Linux distros but would struggle with Wi-Fi.
|
| Frankly, that's why I quite enjoy desktop PCs. Most of the
| hardware works as you'd expect and is both repairable (though to
| be honest I've just thrown away mobos in the past when they start
| misbehaving, possibly due to OC or daily use) and upgradable
| (I've gone from a Ryzen 3 1200 to Ryzen 7 5800X, even had an
| Intel CPU ages back; as well as from an RX 570 to B580, with a
| few more CPUs and GPUs in the middle). Different RAM, more drives
| etc., honestly it's really pleasant, even if there's this big box
| in my room that makes some noise.
| hkt wrote:
| ThinkPad x230T owner here. I believe mine is 12 years old.
|
| By contrast, my son is 9 this year. Still, the kids are good to
| one another.
| p2detar wrote:
| Man, I knew it was going to be a T-series machine. I used to own
| T400s and T430. Just hardcore pieces of hardware. I fine-tuned my
| T430 so that it boots Archlinux in about 3-4 seconds. Loved
| tinkering with Linux, Xfce and coding on that machine. As I grew
| older I switched to a MacBook, like many others but I miss that
| machine.
| linacica wrote:
| My school recently (about 1.5 years ago) upgraded all their
| machines to ThinkPads(laptops & desktops)(11 gen Intel CPUs,
| desktops with A2000 GPUs), i seen other Thinkpad machines which
| try to copy Apple's design choices but these don't, they're big,
| thick, and have a lot of newer features, but also dropped some
| things which caused issues, for example: VGA port, there are
| quite few USB ports, if you know school environment you may know
| it's very rash environment we have HDMI to VGA adapters they
| constantly go bad because the cable is heavy & adapter too
| badgersnake wrote:
| I still use my X1 carbon gen 1. 8gb ram is getting a little bit
| tight these days though. Sadly not upgradable.
| 369548684892826 wrote:
| If you've got linux on it have you tried enabling zram? I use
| it with aggressive settings on my X1 Carbon G6 with 8GB of RAM
| and it effectively gives me somewhere around 15GB of RAM. It
| does need a reasonably fast CPU, but probably worth trying on
| the Gen 1.
| ccppurcell wrote:
| Mine's about 13. I just upgraded from Ubuntu 22 to 24 and I'm
| regretting it a bit. on 22 I could watch downloaded films on an
| external monitor but not stream video. I could live with that.
| But now it seems 24 uses just a little more memory and watching a
| downloaded video on the monitor makes it shudder... :(
| defraudbah wrote:
| check out lubuntu/xubuntu/kubuntu, perfect for internet
| browsing and watching videos
| xtenduke wrote:
| I too had a Thinkpad T400, in about 2013. Compiling my undergrad
| university course code made the music I was listening to skip.
| Modern software sucks, I can not imagine using a core2duo to do
| any task other than ssh/word processing
| TonyTrapp wrote:
| I was using a W500 (same generation) until 2018 or so. Upgraded
| RAM, installed an SSD, and it was my daily driver until the
| end. But already back then it started to become unbearbly slow
| especially with background procesesses like file syncing to
| different machines.
| lennychanuk wrote:
| Same, but just because I'm lazy and cheap.
| einpoklum wrote:
| Of course he does. Because of the robustness but also the
| keyboard. It's so annoying that they don't make decently build
| laptops, at all, these days.
|
| I'm hanging on to my X201. I bought it after I left my workplace
| where I had an X230; and I choose an earlier model because I
| wanted to upgrade rather than downgrade my computer. I am _much_
| more satisfied with the X201 - because of the keyboard of course.
| IIANM, X220 is the best one of the X series.
|
| I replaced the HDD with an SSD about 8 years ago and expanded the
| RAM to 8 GB, and performance is tolerable. At the moment I'm
| running Lubuntu on it, but I'm thinking of switching to Q4OS.
|
| Now, sure, it's old; and yes, it's a bit rickety plastics-wise
| after having survived a fall from 3m at some point; and yes, the
| battery life is limited even after replacing it.
|
| But - I would take it over a modern piece-of-@#$%-keyboard
| machine any day of the week.
| the-mitr wrote:
| My R60 which I got around in c. 2005 still works with Linux mint.
| I replaced the HDD and battery, but rest of the stuff including
| the orange light (to be used as night light) on top of screen
| frame still works! The hinges are a bit loose, so they need some
| support at times.
| johnisgood wrote:
| I have an IBM T42, but I have the supervisor password set that I
| have long forgotten. I know about ways to clear the password (if
| they indeed work) but I have not gotten around it. If anyone
| knows a solution that does work, feel free to share.
|
| It is in a mint condition, not a single scratch, and I don't want
| to throw it out for sure. I have an old OpenBSD on it, it is
| perfect for some light C coding using mg. :)
| jmclnx wrote:
| From my corrupted memory, but I think what you need to do is
| unplug, pull out the battery, open it up and remove the cmos
| battery. There should be instructions on the WEB for that. At
| work, people alawys returned their Thinkpads with that PW set,
| so I know there is a fix.
|
| But if the password is a harddisk password, you are SOL :( You
| will need to get a new HD.
| johnisgood wrote:
| If I remember correctly that is not enough, because the
| supervisor password is stored on the EEPROM chip, so I
| supposedly have to short some pins.
|
| I found this: http://asknotes.com/2018/09/04/removing-
| supervisor-password-...
|
| I am not certain, however! We will see.
| arkensaw wrote:
| I have an X201 (15 years old) and X220 (14 years) that I
| regularly use, running different flavors of linux. they've both
| been repaired and upgraded a few times. I'm spoiled by having an
| M2 Macbook as a daily driver - they can't match it for speed -
| but I love the ruggedness and resilience and I always will.
| AlecSchueler wrote:
| My daily driver is an x200 upgraded to 4gb of RAM. It runs as
| well as it ever did except the web has become slower and slower
| in that everything became an app. Things like GMail and YouTube
| are slow but honestly still fine, and in the worst case scenario
| I can jump onto my phone.
|
| My main use these days is recording and mixing music through an
| interface from 2014. With Reaper the experience is even better
| than when I picked the laptop up back around 2010.
| octygen wrote:
| Its funny you say thay it's the browser slowing you down on
| your PC. I have an MBP from 2011 and the browser (Safari) is
| the only thing it can still run extremely well.
| AlecSchueler wrote:
| The latest browser itself runs fine as well as most old
| school websites like Hacker News, it's only the "web apps"
| that run slowly.
| Melatonic wrote:
| Can't throw more than 4gb in there ? Even 8 makes a big
| difference.
| bikenaga wrote:
| [delayed]
| gherard5555 wrote:
| My T480 just doesn't want to die. I dropped it a lot, in my
| staircase, on concrete floor, accidentally emptied my whole mug
| of coffee on it (had to change the keyboard that time some keys
| were stuck). At some point I felt so confident I tried stepping
| on it when it was closed. So yeah this thing is pretty tough.
| johnisgood wrote:
| Seems like it is the laptop equivalent of the dumbphone Nokia
| 3310. :D
| herbst wrote:
| Except the USBc. Not sure if this applies to all models of the
| t480 series but that connector was slowly breaking down with
| each use, until it partially worked as charging slot and all
| usb functionality was lost.
|
| I went trough 4 different docks until I realized who the actual
| problem was, and the internet was full with similar issues once
| I knew what to look for.
|
| For some reason my nearly identical, slightly newer, X1 doesn't
| have these issues.
| gherard5555 wrote:
| Yes, the connector is a little loose now and the cable comes
| off easily. But you can use the other connector so its not
| really an issue for me.
|
| Also it sounds like you may have the infamous issue where the
| firmware of the charging port cease functioning. I strongly
| recommend updating the charging port firmware to anyone
| reading this if you have a T480.
| mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote:
| It's not a classic thinkpad, but my thinkpad from 7 years ago is
| still going strong.
|
| Recently I decided to do a service on it for the first time, and
| I was absolutely stunned by how little dust had built up in the
| CPU fan and the interior in general, after 7 years of usage,
| often sitting on top of a couch or bed, near my long-haired
| Norwegian forest cat Rufus. All it needed was a litle puff of
| computer duster and it was good as new. That's very good design
| of the air intakes and is a huge factor in the machine's
| longevity.
|
| I did computer repair professionally for a while, and one of the
| most common causes of irreparable death I saw in laptops was
| massive dust buildup in cpu fans and consequent heat damage to
| surrounding components. I'd sometimes see this in 2-3 year old
| laptops even.
|
| Funny to think that something as simple as the shape of an air
| intake opening can have such a profound impact on the lifetime of
| a device.
|
| The other thing that Thinkpads are unrivaled at is protection for
| the display. People like to say macbooks are sturdy, but they are
| quite prone to cracked displays because of Apple's obsession with
| smaller bezels. The thinkpad ofc has t34 style angled armor for
| its display. Can't remember ever seeing a Thinkpad with a cracked
| display. And I carry my Thinkpad around in just a backpack with
| no sleeve, often the Thinkpad is the only thing in there, and it
| regularly impacts the floor when the(thin-bottomed) backpack is
| put down while sitting down on the bus or getting home.
| Narann wrote:
| I've never been a fan on ThinkPad looks, until I get a second
| hand one, in 2014. It had 4GB or RAM and starts to have hard time
| with browsing, so few month ago, I bought 16GB for 20EUR. I'm
| almost sure It could live for 5 or 10 years.
|
| My only complain is Ctrl cap sensor having some inconsistencies,
| I have to push strong on it.
|
| For the rest I consider ThinkPad as the way to go for second
| hand.
| noufalibrahim wrote:
| I've been on a non stop thinkpad streak since 2005 or so. T42
| (IBM), X200, X230 and now X1 carbon.
|
| I used a thinkpad X200 back in 2014 or so and it got completely
| destroyed due to a spill. I replaced the memory, keyboard etc.
| but was unable to get it to work again. Also, the monitor had
| developed a few dead scanlines so I decided to buy another one.
| This was my primary work machine so I needed something quickly. I
| got another x230 off ebay. It was a piece used for demos at shows
| so it was refurbished. Threw Debian onto it and started work
| 2014. I used it straight till 2022 or so. It was my primary
| machine. I replaced the battery, added RAM. Then the fan got
| damaged and the front plastic plating got cracked so it was no
| longer presentable. I bought an X1 carbon but gave the laptop to
| my son. We bought a fan, thermal paste and some plastic parts for
| the casing, a new battery etc., watched a few youtube videos and
| fixed it up. It's still running and they play casual games on it.
| It's now atleast 10 years old and still going strong.
|
| It's a very strong machine with great longevity. Though I feel
| that the newer ones are not as good as the old and the X1 is
| definitely less repairable than its older cousins.
| roflmaostc wrote:
| I changed recently from X1 Yoga Gen 2 to X1 Yoga (2-in-1) Gen
| 9. The decline in quality is so clearly visible, the external
| pen is poorly designed and died after 6 months. The hinges are
| as loose as in a 600$ laptop. The whole thing makes cracking
| noises under slight stress. Also, Linux compatibility is poor,
| my Webcam still does not work. Battery lifetime is a joke too.
|
| Lenovo made this Laptop worse than 7 years ago, and it's their
| top line model for > 2000$. It's such a shame and sad to see.
| There's no very good alternative with integrated touchscreen
| and stylus.
| herbst wrote:
| To be fair yoga models always had issues, never fully Linux
| compatible and never had a long lifetime. Not sure what this
| series is supposed to be, but I wouldn't recommend it.
| noufalibrahim wrote:
| Yeah. I never really even considered Lenovo's new additions
| to the ThinkPad line. I focused on the machines that were
| continued from the original THinkpad series (T, R and X).
| cbeach wrote:
| This article compares two deliberately-different platforms.
|
| One is vertically integrated and designed for thermal
| performance, lightness, thinness and attractiveness.
|
| One is modular, and sacrifices thermal performance, lightness,
| thinness and attractiveness in order that the user can replace
| their own battery / RAM / etc
|
| IMO the latter is a false economy. Yes, you can upgrade your RAM,
| but what about the bus speed, and limitations of the motherboard
| and CPU? You end up with a Frankenstein's monster of new and old
| parts, which are constrained by the lowest common denominator,
| and only useful for basic tasks.
|
| Apple devices have high resale value. Far better, IMO, to sell
| your laptop after a few years, as a cohesive, intact package that
| retains some residual value, and then buy a new one with wholly
| modern parts that make sense together.
| dmwilcox wrote:
| Have a near 10 year old Librem (original 13"), works fine. But if
| it breaks I'm getting an old Thinkpad and putting coreboot on it.
|
| Perhaps my usage is too light, no IDEs, no electron anything, no
| streaming, and few tabs because I shutdown the laptop instead of
| suspend it -- but I don't see what all the fuss is about needing
| to upgrade anything. 16gb of ram and an i5 is fine, even for the
| modern web, disable JavaScript and/or run ublock origin.
|
| The new fangled ARM stuff ;) strikes me as essentially similar in
| character to smartphones: future e-waste with no possibility of
| repair. Choose wisely, choose x86 and modularity
| bambax wrote:
| > _One of the main reasons that old Thinkpads stand out is their
| design philosophy. They are made with swappable components with
| the intention of user upgradeability._
|
| On a fixed PC everything is swappable by definition. I don't
| quite understand why people love laptops so much. If you're using
| your PC in only one place a tower PC is cheaper and can be
| upgraded indefinitely with only a screwdriver (if that).
| burkaman wrote:
| People love them because they want to use their PC in more than
| one place.
| Cthulhu_ wrote:
| And employers love them because if people take them home
| overnight they only need security / insurance for
| peripherals. The only fixed PCs I still see in offices are
| low cost / bulk Dell machines only good for office work or
| thin clients, and even those go back ~15 years now, at a bank
| that already had relatively tight security.
|
| I wish I could have a job where I work on a desktop machine
| and could just leave things at the office when I leave for
| the day. Alas.
| bambax wrote:
| What are those places? Do most people have multiple
| residences? Or do they think they might need it, and in
| practice never do?
| burkaman wrote:
| Even multiple rooms in your home is compelling enough for
| many people, but for me it's about taking it on trips.
| Obviously you don't always want to take your computer on
| vacation, but sometimes I want to visit a friend and work
| from there, or go visit my family and work on a project
| while I'm there, that kind of thing.
|
| On a smaller scale, I often bring my computer to the roof
| of my building or to a library or cafe. I can understand
| preferring the constraint of "when I leave my desk I don't
| have to think about the computer anymore", but for me all
| the additional flexibility is a good tradeoff.
| daxelrod wrote:
| I have a relatively high-end desktop with a nice monitor. I
| also have an aging laptop with a tiny screen and an anemic
| amount of RAM. Most of my computing ends up being done on
| the laptop.
|
| With a family and a kid, it turns out I'd prefer to spend
| most of my time at the computer in common spaces; at the
| dinner table, on the couch, etc. so that I'm present and
| available for my family. This is far better than
| squirreling myself away in a room.
|
| (Note that for work, I have a different computer, I'm
| talking about for life outside of work.)
| scarface_74 wrote:
| You don't see any conflicts between this:
|
| > _it turns out I'd prefer to spend most of my time at
| the computer in common spaces; at the dinner table, on
| the couch_
|
| And this?
|
| > _I'm present and available for my family_
| op00to wrote:
| The conflicts arise when all you do is work. Every second
| of every day does not need to be spent staring at your
| children and still be a good parent.
|
| I often sit with my kids and get a little work done on
| the couch while they're entertaining themselves. I can
| engage where appropriate, and of course I don't spend my
| entire life working. This flexibility allows me time to
| walk them to school, pick them up from school, leave
| early to go to their sports things, band concerts, or
| just play outside with them.
|
| You know, nuance and balance.
| scarface_74 wrote:
| I have a kind of strict separation between home and work
| and I have since I started working remotely.
|
| When I'm "at work" in my home office. I'm not to be
| disturbed. When I'm "off work" my computer is shut down
| until the next day and I get on with the rest of my life
| - which doesn't involve computers.
|
| That sets strict expectations from everyone in my home.
| op00to wrote:
| I'm glad that works for you and your family. For me, I
| thrive from taking breaks during the day with my family
| and having the ability to catch up and work when the
| ideas hit me. That's what's wonderful about remote work,
| both our styles can be accommodated, we can be there when
| our families need us, and we can both be our most
| effective selves.
| animal531 wrote:
| I have a 2nd generation iPad and its amazing how well it still
| runs.
|
| Of course I can't do anything with it because you can't update
| the OS and without having a new OS you can't actually download or
| run anything from the shop.
| apples_oranges wrote:
| Same for my third gen.
|
| Well, at least I updated the root certificate on it and it's
| good as a PDF reader, book reader and music player still.
| animal531 wrote:
| I should probably do the same since my Kindle has packed up
| and will no longer start, so I could at least use the pad for
| that.
| gsky wrote:
| My last laptop, dell 14r i3 2nd gen, retired after 12 years.
|
| It still works fine but the processor was slowing me down. New
| one's i3 12gen cost me $300
| dash2 wrote:
| I can still run my X60 from 2006. Still, I am not sure about the
| premise here. My Macbook Air from 2013 also runs very solidly.
| bjpirt wrote:
| I've been pondering the same thought recently but applied to
| analog cameras. Analog cameras have evolved over time,
| approximately according to the following:
|
| - fully mechanical
|
| - mechanical shutter with light meter
|
| - electronic control of shutter, mechanical advance
|
| - fully electronic shutter and advance
|
| Broadly, what I'm finding after digging in to restoring some
| cameras is that most of the cameras from the first stage can
| still be fixed and made to perform close to when they were new.
| The second still work, but the light meter can die (simpler light
| meters may be repairable, later ones not so much). The third and
| fourth stages - once they die, there's no repairing them. And
| when you look at digital cameras, there'll be very, very few of
| these that last long into the future.
|
| This bears out the 'Lindy Effect' mentioned in the article.
| Melatonic wrote:
| The second category is my personal favorite - bought a used and
| slightly beat up Nikon FM2n when I was in college for cheap and
| the thing is still trucking with no maintenance done 15 years
| later. Shutter speeds seem at least reasonably accurate and it
| only requires a battery for the light meter. All mechanical
| otherwise.
|
| Or if you want to get fancy the Nikon FM3a gives you sort of
| the best of all worlds (all mechanical internals or battery
| powered auto exposure with the flip of a dial)
| tiberius_p wrote:
| Mine is 12 years old, battery is dead but I use it as a server.
| jamesdhutton wrote:
| I'm currently coding a Flutter app on a 15-year-old Dell desktop,
| running Linux. The experience is great. I'm running latest
| versions of VS Code, Flutter, you name it. It's nice and snappy
| and a joy to use. I've upgraded RAM, SSDs, GPU over the years to
| keep it somewhat up to date. Eventually I'm going to have to cave
| in and buy a Mac so that I can publish my app for iOS. I've been
| loathe to do it though and I've been putting it off. This article
| is a great explanation of why I've been so loathe. It articulates
| reasons that were semi-subconscious for me.
| moffkalast wrote:
| > The experience is great.
|
| Aside from it being a principled thing, Linux does work a lot
| better on older machines. Newer hardware tends to have shit
| driver support for a few years.
|
| Like my 10 year old Asus laptop which is supposed to have
| horrid Linux compatibility runs multiple versions of Ubuntu
| with KDE perfectly, with only bluetooth crapping out
| occasionally.
|
| A new Lenovo laptop that we just got at work that's supposed to
| be tested with linux? Completely broken, can't adjust the
| display brightness, can't read the battery level, touchpad
| doesn't work, and more. I'm sure it'll be sorted out by Ubuntu
| 26 or whatever, but damn is it a crap experience. Using linux
| on a machine that's less than 5 years old is already too
| bleeding edge for productivity.
| fadedsignal wrote:
| That sucks. I remember buying my XPS when the new version
| released and tried to install Linux (Fedora). Nvidia driver
| issues, CPU E/P core issues, and many more. It literally took
| 2 years to get stable. Recently, Nvidia released a new
| version of the driver. Guess what happened? PC doesn't wake
| up from sleep anymore. I'm not even mentioning the so-called
| 8-hour battery life.
| jamesdhutton wrote:
| Yeah Nvidia and Linux don't play together nicely. I
| discovered that the hard way too. I switched to AMD and
| it's been smooth sailing ever since.
| moffkalast wrote:
| It's real pity that is the only upside of an AMD GPU.
| amunozo wrote:
| Lindy effect, as the author said, is for non-perishable items.
| ThinkPad as a brand could be included in this categoty, but an
| individual ThinkPad is not.
|
| Good article, though.
| RecycledEle wrote:
| My coworkers understand and envy my Lenovo e570, they just wish
| Apple or Dell sold one like I have new at a reasonable price.
|
| I can not fault them. I wish GM still sold the S10 pickup.
| barkut wrote:
| X220 owner here. You will have to pry it from my dead cold hands.
| I don't use anything that can't run on it well, my workflow is
| mostly shell based. Even Firefox don't do that bad when JS is
| disabled.
| neonnoodle wrote:
| hell same
| svilen_dobrev wrote:
| Well, next to a x220 from 2012, sits my eee-pc 701, from 2008.
| With no-moving-parts-inside, and "huge" soldered 4Gb ssdisk with
| arch-32bit. Been around the world (literally), a few times. The
| touchpad buttons started falling few years ago. i keep putting
| them back. Rarely used nowadays - but battery still holds about
| hour+ .. Well made tiny machine.
|
| i guess i am a hoarder? Hate to throw away useful working
| things..
| thenthenthen wrote:
| Similar setup here + 12 year old MacbookPro + 10 year old tower
| case pc. I recently got a M1 to test out some of the apple ai
| stuff (translation, it is broken on my intel mbp some how) but
| I doubt this m1 will outlive my eeepc/x220/mbp.
| anymouse123456 wrote:
| I'm running a Lenovo Thinkpad, X1 Carbon from a year or so ago
| and it is, by far, the best Linux Laptop I've ever owned.
|
| Unlike the 4 or so Dell (and Asus) laptops (that came with Linux
| preinstalled) that preceded this one, it can simultaneously
| support:
|
| * Bluetooth. Yay!
|
| * Wifi. Yay!
|
| * Sleeps when the lid closes. Yay!
|
| * Stays asleep when in my bag. Yay!
|
| It's also reasonably fast and decently capable, but the not-
| trying-to-commit-heat-death-suicide-in-my-bag and supporting BOTH
| Wifi AND Bluetooth at the same time are really the biggest
| features.
| devnullbrain wrote:
| The last point is really a special feature in today's laptop
| market, Linux or not.
| ChrisMarshallNY wrote:
| I can't match that, but I regularly use a 2012 11" MacBook Air,
| as a Zoom terminal.
|
| Works great. Stuck on Catalina, but can handle the software I
| need.
| DarkIye wrote:
| Another x220 club member reporting in. My employer was getting
| rid of old machines a few years back, I got it for PS20. The only
| work it needed was to resolder the left speaker, I think it
| already had an SSD in it.
|
| It weighs less than 2kg and is perfect for light duties.
| limpbizkitfan wrote:
| Sorry but rifling through your weblog there is a ton of freak
| shit posted dog
| pabs3 wrote:
| My X201t still works fine, only replaced it because I found newer
| desktops in a dumpster. Still no laptops in dumpsters though.
| sevensor wrote:
| I love old Thinkpads for single purpose computers. Install
| Debian, boot it once a day, or once a week, or once a month. One
| for all the flacs I had the energy to rip in my 20s, one for wine
| and dosbox, one for messing around with programming languages,
| one for household stuff. It prevents distractions.
| JansjoFromIkea wrote:
| Bought an X220 years back and it unintentionally became my main
| laptop for a few years. Sold it on in much worse condition (I
| kept the keyboard) at a profit and got an i7 X230T instead, which
| has also somehow gone up in price since.
|
| the X230 didn't last as long, the efficiencies of the M1 macbooks
| were too good to ignore. Gave it to my mother since because she
| wanted "an old laptop that just works"
| reaperducer wrote:
| _I kept the keyboard_
|
| This I understand.
|
| My company's IT department is using the Windows 11 migration to
| move everyone to new laptops, and I am going to miss that
| amazingly firm-but-sqiushy keyboard so hard.
|
| I can't stand Windows, but writing long-form reports on that
| machine is a joy.
| ardillamorris wrote:
| If everything is modelar and can be replaced is the think pad
| just a box?
| nticompass wrote:
| In September of 2012, I bought a T430 from Lenovo. I loved that
| thing! Covered it with stickers, even upgraded it as the years
| went on.
|
| Eventually, it had a Core i7-3820QM with 16GB RAM, 1080p screen
| (with an adapter), SSDs (plural, I put one in the UltraBay)... I
| installed Coreboot with Tianocore, upgraded the WiFi card... I
| even modded in the keyboard from a T420.
|
| In June of 2022, 10 years later, I bought an X270 off eBay. I
| could still use the T430, it was just starting to feel
| sluggish... I just felt like I needed a new laptop. I'm very
| happy with the X270 and I hope to use it as long as possible.
|
| It was also fun to start covering it with stickers all over
| again!
|
| I still have the T430, it's just not being used and it's sitting
| in a storage locker (with my vintage computer collection).
| jmclnx wrote:
| >I could still use the T430, it was just starting to feel
| sluggish
|
| A cleaning and re-paste will bring it back. If on windows maybe
| time for a windows re-install.
|
| Typed on a T430 via BSD that was just re-pasted and cleaned,
| not sluggish anymore :) If you are interested *BSD, I can
| confirm both NetBSD and OpenBSD works great on the T430 I have.
| acquacow wrote:
| I just finished completely rebuilding a 2008 and 2010 macbook
| pro. The older ones are quite serviceable. This round, the
| speaker surrounds had cracked causing buzzing audio or no audio.
| I managed to ebay brand new speaker replacements and got them
| installed. I cleaned everything and re-pasted the CPU/GPU while I
| was in there as well. They are on El Capitan and High Sierra, but
| can be patched to be upgraded to Mojave if I wish. Currently
| running a LTS version of Firefox as my browser.
| inversetelecine wrote:
| Did similar. A 2008 white macbook and a late 2008 unibody
| macbook (non-pro). It was a fun project.
|
| The white plastic macbook is in decent shape too with just
| standard light scratching on the body. It was sold for parts
| only but worked just fine. Needed a battery replacement, and I
| found some old magsafe "L" chargers for cheap. Maxed out the
| RAM at 4GB (Supports 6GB (4G+2G) but 1pc of 4GB DDR2 are
| expensive).
|
| The 2008 unibody macbook needed the lower body replaced (bad
| keyboard main issue) but the rest of it works fine. The
| original battery still worked and held some charge, but I got a
| 3rd party one anyway along with the magsafe "L" charger. Maxed
| out RAM at a usable 8GB DDR3. This was also sold dirt cheap
| "for parts".
|
| Both ran MX Linux for awhile until I needed the SATA SSDs. They
| now sit with their old mechanical hdds and the last supported
| OSX versions on them. Maybe one day I'll get around to selling
| them.
| sneak wrote:
| It's just a different layer of abstraction. The chips on your SSD
| in your thinkpad are also soldered without any easy way to
| replace them save for replacing the whole SSD. Same for your RAM.
|
| Now in a modern laptop it's the top case or bottom case or board;
| the robot-made factory parts are bigger integrated components of
| the system. All you care about is your data anyway, the
| repairability of the system as a whole by swapping out components
| at home (admittedly a large culture in the PC world, as silly as
| it is these days when all you're doing is connecting a robot
| factory gpu to a robot factory cpu and choosing a PSU and RAM
| (also made in robot factories)) isn't that important.
|
| I hope one day that computing gets so small and light and dense
| and integrated that I can't replace any single components without
| a robot factory and/or microscope. I want a solid microscopically
| integrated slab (which is what my iPad Pro is basically
| approaching).
| Melatonic wrote:
| I see what you are saying at some level - but for a laptop form
| factor (which is already inherently larger since it has
| keyboard and larger screen) wouldn't it make more sense to at
| minimum have a few super dense robot made boards all integrated
| ?
|
| Maybe you have the main motherboard with CPU, RAM, and possibly
| GPU all together. Save space - integrate bigger and better
| batteries.
|
| Swappable storage though seems like a no brainer (especially
| because even the fastest SSDs don't require the kind of latency
| and link speed soldered RAM might). A modern card type slot for
| peripherals seems like a damn nice addition too along with the
| ability to swap the WiFi chip.
|
| Hell I would even settle for an easily swapped mobo with
| soldered parts if I wanted to upgrade down the line - a good
| screen and keyboard and chassis can last a long time !
| randerson wrote:
| My old ThinkPad X220 is the laptop I miss the most. My employer
| at the time replaced laptops after 4 years and sent the old ones
| to be destroyed for compliance reasons. I begged them to just
| destroy the SSD and let me keep the laptop, but "company
| policy..." In a sensible world I would still have that machine.
| DeathArrow wrote:
| You can buy one for a song.
| asdffdasy wrote:
| and you will probably get that very same one.
|
| IT data destruction companies all remove the storage, and put
| the device back on ebay the same day.
| ErrorNoBrain wrote:
| I mean sure, being able to keep a 17 year old laptop is alive, is
| awesome...
|
| but why?
|
| I get special hardware needs to live for a long time, like, an
| arcade machine, specialized equipment or something. but some
| random laptop?
|
| what can it do, that a modern computer cant, apart from being
| repaired easily (lets ignore framework laptops for the sake of
| argument)
|
| if his point is he just wants a framework laptop, it already
| exists.
| dweinus wrote:
| It also avoids a lot of waste/pollution/cost. That might sound
| trivial, but over the course of 17 years an average person
| might own 5 laptops.
| ubermonkey wrote:
| One of the finest laptops I ever had -- in my 30 year history
| with the form factor -- was an IBM Thinkpad 560Z. It was insanely
| compact, but powerful enough for my purposes at the time. It had
| a radical design for the time b/c it had NO removable media on
| board at all. It shipped with an outboard CD-ROM that I used
| often enough that it lived on my desk, and an outboard floppy
| drive that I don't think I used at all.
|
| The shame of it was that a PC of that era had a super short
| useful life. Now we think nothing of keeping computers for 5
| years or more; they're just so powerful that for most regular
| human tasks, there's no need for the kind of upgrade treadmill
| that dominated computing 25 years ago. After 3 years, though, the
| 560Z was almost unusable -- it had a TINY hard drive, and limited
| RAM. Windows was getting fatter and slower. But the physical
| computer itself was in GREAT shape -- even after years of heavy
| travel, it bore none of the crappy wear and tear I'd associate
| with colleagues' Dells (e.g.) later. I kept it on a shelf for a
| long time because it was so solid and _pleasing_ that I couldn 't
| bear to part with it despite its basic uselessness.
|
| I didn't realize it at the time, but the 560Z was also my last
| Windows laptop. Because my job back then was mostly Office docs,
| and because Win98 was so awful, I shifted to a Mac when the 560
| was done, and I've been there ever since.
| bobjordan wrote:
| I've been using my 10-year-old ThinkPad X250 and a decade-old
| workstation without feeling any need to upgrade. However, the
| possibility of running powerful local LLMs that require a lot of
| GPU or unified memory has finally increased my interest. It's my
| impression that laptops likely won't see the major leap required
| in that area to run truely large LLMs for another 5-10 years, but
| I expect workstation capabilities to advance more rapidly,
| meaning I may upgrade in the next 1-3 years.
|
| My current workstation setup includes 22cores/44threads decade
| old xeon plus four decade old Titan X GPUs with a total of 48GB
| VRAM, which is enough to run a decent local AI model, but I'm
| finally wanting more capacity. I haven't been this interested to
| upgrade in a decade. NVIDIA's new DGX-class offerings might
| convince me, depending on pricing and supply, although waiting a
| few more years to let things stabilize could be what I do. Still,
| it's an exciting time for hardware, especially now that there's a
| tangible reason to invest in more power for local AI.
| Melatonic wrote:
| The new Nvidia developer workstations (believe they are much
| cheaper than full DGX systems) are definitely interesting.
|
| I have a desktop with a Titan XP (somewhat similar to your
| Titan X). If you look up LLM performance however these older
| GPUs (even with enough VRAM) do quite poorly. They still hold
| up great for gaming and many other GPU hungry tasks though.
|
| Personally I think a really cool setup would be something like
| a modern MacBook Pro with a ton of RAM and high core CPU that
| could be plugged into an external GPU enclosure when needed.
| Depending on LLM needs you could be upgrading the external GPU
| and still use the power efficient laptop on the go.
| kodt wrote:
| I have a 14 year old T420, I upgraded the processor, ram, hard
| drive, battery, and wifi chip several years ago which really sped
| it up and gave it more usable life. Still runs great for most
| things.
| ukd1 wrote:
| I have few old thinkpads X220, X230, etc - outside of raw
| power, the two things that really suck are the speakers
| (they're truly trash), and the standard screen's performance
| with anything but trivial light around it.
|
| Still, it's fast enough to use with linux, and the keyboard is
| a joy to use. Swappable batteries are fun, and useful.
|
| However, I can't really use one outside of just nostalgia, or
| for tuning cars.
| kodt wrote:
| Yeah, they aren't really suitable for heavy workloads.
| Melatonic wrote:
| If you're using Windows on it I highly recommend looking into
| the last version of Windows 10 LTSC - it's basically a
| completely stripped down version without all the crap (no
| spyware, windows store, candy crush, etc). Anything you really
| need to add back is easy (like if you do need a windows store
| app for example)
|
| With an SSD it boots insanely fast and consumes very little
| resources at idle. And will get security updates for many years
| to come. It's really the perfect OS for the T420 (or Linux of
| course - although I'd actually prefer Windows for a classic
| Thinkpad).
|
| Bit hard to buy legally (you need to go through a VAR - there
| are some who will definitely sell you single copies). Core
| Windows 10 without all the bloat is actually a really
| impressive and lightweight OS considering the massive backwards
| compatibility and huge backlog of free software. Not to mention
| the insane breadth of hardware it will run on.
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| There's a fallacy often repeated for computers: "It's lasted a
| long time so it's going to keep lasting a long time." The thing
| is, failure of computer hardware is often due to manufacturing
| flaws. There's many that could have flaws, and they're subject to
| (varying) environmental stresses (both at build time at run
| time), so there's many failure modes.
|
| It's difficult to know exactly when a server might fail. It might
| be within 1 month of its build, it might be 50 years. But what's
| clear is that failure isn't less likely as the machine gets
| older, it's more likely. There are outliers, but they;re rare.
| The failure modes for these things are well recorded, and the
| whole thing is designed to fail within a certain number of hours
| (if it's not the hard drive, it's the fan, the cpu, the memory,
| the capacitors, the solder joints, etc). It doesn't get better as
| it ages.
|
| But environmental stress is often a predictor of how long it
| lives. If the machine is cooled properly, in a low-humidity
| environment, is jostled less, run at low-capacity (fans not
| running as hard, temperature not as high, disks not written to as
| much, etc), then it lives longer. So you can decrease the
| probability of failure, and it may live longer. But it also might
| drop dead tomorrow, because again there may be manufacturing
| flaws.
|
| If given the choice, I wouldn't buy an old machine, because I
| don't know what kind of stress it's had, and the math is stacked
| against it.
| normie3000 wrote:
| > But what's clear is that failure isn't less likely as the
| machine gets older, it's more likely.
|
| Is this true? Doesn't most hardware have a dip in failure rate
| in the middle of its average lifespan?
| 0xbadcafebee wrote:
| It depends on the components. The bathtub curve applies the
| most manufactured equipment in some way. But specific kinds
| of hardware are more prone to it than others. Hard drives,
| fans, power supplies, dedicated controllers, RAM and CPU
| modules, etc all fail at different rates. Combine that with
| the varying failure rates of different _grades_ of
| components, with manufacturer /model differences,
| environmental differences, and load differences, and it's all
| over the map. But in general, any one of these components is
| effectively a system failure, so there is always this varying
| degree of failure over time due to the fluctuation of all
| these variables.
|
| I also believe there's a psychic component to failures. The
| machines know when you're close to product launch, or when
| someone has just discovered the servers haven't been
| maintained in a while and are at risk of failing. Then
| they'll fail for sure. _Especially_ if there are hot-spare or
| backup servers, which will conveniently fail as well.
| ge96 wrote:
| I always have a Carbon x1 lying around (old one) just because
| it's a great design to me being slim and nice keyboard
| agentultra wrote:
| I still primarily use Thinkpads for all these reasons. One
| incident with fluids and a $3k Apple machine is e-waste. I had
| young kids, it was inevitable.
|
| Instead, refurbished Thinkpads are still coming off leases.
| Available for a 250-700 refurbished. Bench repairable. I keep
| good backups. If something incredible happens and I can't fix it
| I can get a new one same day and be back on my feet.
|
| And I like the aesthetic. They're built to be durable. The
| chassis has fluid channels. The parts are replaceable. They're
| black, unassuming, and utilitarian.
|
| It is getting harder to keep the latest versions of some distros
| running on them. Software continues to expand like a gas and
| developers don't seem to run their stuff on anything but the
| latest spec hardware. But there are distros out there where folks
| take care to keep things minimal and fast.
|
| These are still powerful machines. Not editing 4K video on them.
| But they're dang useful for coding, writing, and day to day
| things I do.
| _fat_santa wrote:
| I would say even newer Thinkpads are a great deal. I recently
| bought a P15 Gen 1 from 2020 for ~$700 and it's been an
| absolute monster. Core i9, RTX 5000, and 128GB or ram. Through
| research I learned that brand new this machine would have cost
| around ~$5,800 but even five years later it's better than most
| new laptops around the ~$700 price point.
|
| The "hard" thing about thinkpads is you have to find them. I
| must have searched eBay listing for close to a month before the
| right thinkpad popped up. Especially with the workstation grade
| laptops, they were so configurable brand new that there are
| something like 48 possible variants you can find, and finding
| one with the exact specs you want can be incredibly difficult.
| DrNosferatu wrote:
| Want a real solution to electronic waste?
|
| The EU should mandate 10-year warranties for higher-end consumer
| electronics and durable goods.
|
| This could work on a sliding scale: less expensive items get
| shorter warranties (but never below the current 2-year minimum),
| while pricier products require longer coverage periods.
|
| Such legislation would:
|
| 1. End the exploitation of workers in sweatshops producing
| deliberately short-lived products
|
| 2. Discourage planned obsolescence and reduce manufacturing waste
|
| 3. Significantly decrease the climate impact of consumer
| electronics
|
| 4. Create genuine incentives for a Circular Economy where durable
| products like quality ThinkPads become standard rather than
| exceptions
|
| By requiring products to last, we'd not only protect consumers
| and the Environment, but also the vulnerable workers currently
| trapped and exploited in sweatshops designed to produce
| disposable goods.
| stronglikedan wrote:
| The reality is that no one wants to carry around a five pound
| laptop just for the sake of sturdiness or repairability.
| DrNosferatu wrote:
| One thing does not prevent the other: that's what standards
| are for.
| acrooks wrote:
| You will need to sacrifice something. If the regulations
| become more restrictive, one of the following needs to
| change:
|
| - cost (laptops getting more expensive) - quality (laptops
| getting less powerful / smaller) - time (manufacturers have
| a long grace period before they need to implement the
| regulations, to allow technology to catch up)
| DrNosferatu wrote:
| The EU always implements this kind of legislation with
| grace periods - obviously, no step functions.
| asdffdasy wrote:
| 98% of laptops are portable desktops.
|
| Only in very niche jobs you carry your laptop to/from
| office/home every day.
| b8 wrote:
| I have a x220 with an adjustable screen. I broke the screen and
| the battery can't hold a charge. The power button cover is messed
| up. No hard drive cover. Last I looked up the screen install was
| complicated and expensive. Probably take over $200 I paid on eBay
| for it. It has an unlocked bios though which I've read is rare.
| dionidium wrote:
| My primary computer, the one I'm typing on right now, is a
| 13-year old 2012 Mac Mini.
|
| It couldn't be more fine. It does everything I need it to do.
| nickpeterson wrote:
| Now you've jinxed it. I'd imagine you'll never see this
| response because your laptop exploded shortly after typing that
| comment.
| userabchn wrote:
| I use a 20 year old Dell laptop. The only problem for me is
| that 32bit is starting to become limiting.
| shanecleveland wrote:
| Running a 2009 Mac Mini in a business setting. Connected to a
| barcode scanner within a local python development environment
| and communicates over a wired network. Runs 24/7 with barely an
| issue.
| firefax wrote:
| So if I was looking for an older Thinkpad to throw something XFCE
| flavored onto, what are some model numbers to look for? I'm
| basically just looking to do word processing/browsing, but I
| assume I'll have to jack up the ram, maybe replace the main drive
| with an SSD...
| 2b3a51 wrote:
| Depends on what screen size/resolution you favour, and the type
| of keyboard.
|
| I like the older keyboards and I'm ok with 1366x768 so I'm
| happy with an X220 with 8Gb RAM and a 256Gb ssd (sata). I know
| many people would find that unacceptable.
| firefax wrote:
| I can get a monitor if needed, it's more meant to be a
| luggable. I'm not a keyboard purist -- I hunt and peck :-)
| zokier wrote:
| Personally I think beyond T450 generation, i.e. over 10 years old
| systems, you are starting to make pretty severe compromises. T440
| generation had really bad Trackpoint setup, and older hardware
| starts to lose features. Random stuff that T450 has that T400
| doesn't
|
| * USB3
|
| * Up to 32 GB of RAM (vs max 8 GB for T400)
|
| * M.2 slot (for SSD), 6 Gb/s SATA (vs 1.5 Gb/s on T400)
|
| * x86-64-v3 (AVX2 etc) and OpenGL 4.6
|
| * Dual-band AC wifi and BT4.0 (optional 4G LTE WWAN)
|
| * DisplayPort with 4k@60Hz output
|
| * Slightly larger screen estate (1600x900 vs 1440x900), with FHD
| 1080p display option
|
| * Dramatically better battery life
|
| * Backlit keyboard
|
| Many of these are not merely nice to have but also ensure
| longevity by being compatible with lot of other modern stuff. On
| the other hand I do believe that T450 generation device might
| remain viable daily driver for a long while still. From the specs
| the biggest obvious shortcoming to me is the lack of USB-C,
| especially USB-C charging. But besides that, it seems pretty
| usable system.
|
| For reference, I have old X240 that I still occasionally use.
| kwanbix wrote:
| My two T460s work just fine. They are not as expandable as my
| T420 but I can change the M.2 SSD and the RAM. That is enough
| for me at this point. RAM and STORAGE has to be upgradeable.
| flobosg wrote:
| > especially USB-C charging
|
| I swapped the barrel connector in my x220 for a third party
| USB-C charging port:
| https://www.tindie.com/products/mikepdiy/lenovo-charging-por...
| kev009 wrote:
| The T480 is kind of the current modern classic, it even has
| recent coreboot support. I did a screen swap on mine to a
| modern low blue light panel, LiteOn keyboard swap, new
| batteries and there is really nothing else to complain about.
|
| T14 series are cheap enough used now to be considered cheap,
| but you lose some of the modding potential of the T480.
| benou wrote:
| I still use my Thinkpad x61 as my daily driver (typing on it
| right now) and I don't feel most of the "severe limitations"
| you are listing. I think some are wrong (eg. I use Dual-band AC
| wifi and BT4.0 wifi card in mine, and have a 2.5" SATA-II
| (3Gbps) SSD), and others are not limitation for my use. I won't
| recommend it to everyone, mind you, but for my use it is
| perfect.
| Melatonic wrote:
| T420 has most of that (or can be upgraded to a lot of that)
| while still retaining the classic keyboard and tank like build.
| Saris wrote:
| Having used old thinkpads I just don't really understand the
| appeal, especially with how poor old LCDs look. The trackpads are
| tiny, the battery life is abysmal, they're heavy and like an inch
| thick.
| rc_mob wrote:
| Macbook superior screen is the only reason i switched from
| thinkpad t-series. Everything you listed can be ignored or you
| get used to it. Not like macbook touchpad is without its own
| annoyances.
| piuantiderp wrote:
| One does not use the trackpad in a thinkpad. If anything they
| should be removed. The old keyboards are a dream to type on...
| Only computer that came close (that I had was HP DV1000)
| Saris wrote:
| Yeah I've tried the little track nub things but they don't
| work well for me, a good track pad is much quicker.
| Melatonic wrote:
| It takes a decent amount of practice and you need to adjust
| the sensitivity settings. Eventually though I would say
| they can be more accurate than most trackpads (excluding a
| good Apple trackpad - those are great)
|
| The real advantage though is your hands never need to leave
| the keyboard between mouse and typing (for speed)
| gsibble wrote:
| I have both a brand new M4 Macbook and a ThinkPad P16s. I run
| Arch with Hyprland on my P16s.
|
| They are both fantastic laptops but have clearly different use
| cases.
|
| My Macook is my browsing/YouTube/music/research/photo editing
| machine. It's fantastic at those things. It also integrates into
| FaceTime and iMessage which means I don't have to pull out my
| phone all the time.
|
| My P16s is my work laptop. I can disappear into it for 5 hours
| straight writing code. I'm either in Cursor or the terminal most
| of that time with a little browser use. And hyprland is freaking
| gorgeous, fast, and incredibly stable. I don't get nearly as good
| a development experience on my Macbook, mostly because so much of
| its navigation is based upon the trackpad vs. the keyboard in
| Hyprland.
|
| So, I enjoy both and each has their place. I think my only
| complaint about the P16s is while it has an extremely high res
| OLED display, it's not as bright as I'd prefer.
| csdvrx wrote:
| > And hyprland is freaking gorgeous, fast, and incredibly
| stable. I don't get nearly as good a development experience on
| my Macbook, mostly because so much of its navigation is based
| upon the trackpad vs. the keyboard in Hyprland.
|
| hyprland is so much better than anything else I don't
| understand why it's not more popular on HN
| zakqwy wrote:
| If you run an X220 or X230 and do embedded development, build in
| an ARM debugger (a thing I made some years ago)! [1]
|
| [1] https://hackaday.io/project/27272-tp-bmp
| mcbuilder wrote:
| I have a stack of T40 and T60 series in my shed. All 32bit
| processors, but man what beautiful machines. I kinda feel like
| the guy with the classic Thunderbird in his garage.
| Melatonic wrote:
| Throw Windows 10 LTSC on those things if it can handle it ! Way
| lower RAM and idle consumption
| windex wrote:
| On a T480 secondhand with a wonky keyboard. Where are you guys
| sourcing keyboards from?
| zer0zzz wrote:
| What is the point of a reparable upgradable machine if the
| components are all ancient and a used m1 MacBook with just as
| much ram as the maximum on a x220 costs 500 dollars?
| gwbas1c wrote:
| (Joke)
|
| What do you mean a Thinkpad is repairable? If a chip dies, you
| have to go out and buy a new chip!
|
| Whatever happened to the days where you could just wire in a new
| transistor yourself?
|
| (/Joke)
|
| Jokes aside, my point is that this article is splitting hairs
| about where repairability and integration lies. It's not worth
| opening up a failing RAM module to find the microscopic broken
| transistor. For many of us, it's not worth repairing an old
| laptop, but instead we'd rather have the advantages of everything
| soldered to the mainboard.
|
| (Although I will admit to repairing an old Mac laptop. The fans
| started to squeak, so I changed them.)
| geocrasher wrote:
| My T420 has a couple of upgrades: Memory (16GB) and SSD (250GB).
| That's it. It's bone stock otherwise. When my buddy's laptop
| screen cracked, we had a hard time finding a new one. He took my
| T420 to work every day for a few months, and it came back to me
| more banged up than when it left. It's fine. And it did the job
| admirably.
|
| I need to do some automotive tuning/testing and guess what, the
| T420 is where its at for that, too. It's no longer good as a
| daily driver, but it'll do everything else just fine.
| padmabushan wrote:
| Meanwhile an old pentium processor still operates nuclear plant
| in india ..
| jajuuka wrote:
| I mean I know people who are still using 2010 MacBook Pro's with
| modern macOS versions. Just about any problem is fixable, it just
| depends on your skill level or how much money you wanna put into
| it. Another reminder to use whatever computer you want. All it
| has to be is the best for you.
| bentt wrote:
| I just replaced the seat back on my 2005 Aeron chair as well.
| Feels good to take an old thing and make it feel new. These kinds
| of opportunities need to be designed into products, but maybe
| even more importantly, people need to value those design choices
| so much that they'll pay more for these types of things.
| anon6362 wrote:
| T480 (non-s)
|
| - Love the dual batteries (one swappable) unavailable on Apple-
| design infested T490
|
| - Retrofitted with magnesium top case and bezel mod
|
| - 5 extended 72 Whr batteries with a third-party external charger
| from some dude in the UK
|
| - Upgraded to fastest processor and discrete GPU (slow on its own
| but I use a Razer Core X eGPU with an Nvidia RTX 3070 Ti, and can
| run basically any game on Steam.)
|
| - 32 GiB of RAM
|
| - WiFi 6e Intel AX210 (looking at WiFi 7 using the AMD-compatible
| Broadcom FastConnect 7800 / QCNCM865 that I run on my AMD 7900
| Asrock DeskMini X600 electronic lab Windows-only things box that
| I'm typing on right now).
|
| - Bought OE replacement most likely to fail: keyboards, pointing
| stick (and tips), trackpad assembly, and fans (I think I bought
| 6). Any loose USB, etc. connectors I can resolder myself.
|
| - I might have a slight mainboard problem because I'm constantly
| running ThrottleStop to get higher, sustained Tdp with SpeedFan
| sending fans manually to full blast or otherwise the max freq
| randomly drops to painfully-slow 900 MHz max non-
| deterministically.
| hxorr wrote:
| Most likely need to repaste your CPU and replace any thermal
| pads for good measure (they tend to get damaged easily when
| removing heatsink, and do degrade over time too)
| atxtechbro wrote:
| As an E15 Gen 2 owner, I'm in awe of you wizards keeping these
| ancient ThinkPads alive - my modern entry-level machine suddenly
| feels inadequate despite having 4x the processing power!
| p_greendale wrote:
| Hm, I find that comparison a bit off. As a lover of both,
| Thinkpads (original IBM and Lenovo followups) AND macbooks, I
| would like to say that it IS possible to maintain macbooks, at
| least the older ones. My 2012'er MacBook Pro is holding up, parts
| like the sata-cable and worn out fan were replaced and the ram
| was upgraded. My Powerbook 530 hat replacable parts, even the G3
| Pismo(?) one and an white ibook g3 is also serviceable if you're
| patient. Same happend for the thinkpads 360, 570, 600, X41t,
| X61s, T60, T61... hell. We even had chinese colleagues ordering
| for motherboards for us from china with changed firmware to run
| 201'er boards in X200 tablets. I became frustrated on thinkpads
| when Lenovo tried to mimick Apples lightweight AIO design and
| their first chicklet keyboard frustrated me. I changed all to
| apple then, because if both do weird things, why not using the
| more power efficent M1 (imho, maybe that has changed.)
|
| Do you remember the old thinkpad bios? Where the pointer was a
| flying duck? Do you remember opening a thinkpad and everything
| was labelled with colors and had small handles to change
| components quickly? Do remember changing ram on a powerbook? And
| do you remember how hard it was to find a new scsi disc drive for
| them?
|
| Recently, I got an nearly mint T420 at work as I needed something
| for a mobile job and I just felt my love for the black boxes
| again. Damn, I miss those days but I also would miss my retina
| (apple) or 4k screen (Lenovo) if I had to decide between either
| an old machine or a new one. Luckily, I can keep a few
| Melatonic wrote:
| T420 is an awesome machine but damn do modern laptops have
| better cooling and battery life.
|
| Maybe some day we will see more modern OS work well on power
| sipping ARM CPUs (like windows and Linux) and someone will
| offer a motherboard replacement for the T420 (like they do now)
| using one.
| hxorr wrote:
| Here's what happened to the thinkpads I've owned... R51 - sold
| R50p - died (bad VRAM) X201 - Ethernet chip died, speakers died,
| bad keyboard - sold X230 - died X230 - sold in relatively good
| health X1 carbon gen 4 - best laptop I've owned out of all of the
| previous thinkpads by far
|
| People go on about thinkpad reliability, but I've had two
| straight up die on me...
|
| To be frank, I don't get the hype for the older models. They're
| slow and clunky. The newer chiclet keyboards are fine once you
| get used to them.
| Melatonic wrote:
| The X Series was always their cutting edge compact models -
| makes sense they would be as reliable. Personally I always like
| the T series as they were total tanks (considered mid range at
| the time).
| NoSalt wrote:
| I have a Lenovo ThinkPad T61 that I absolutely LOVE! It is
| running the latest Xubuntu (24.04) with no problems. I have maxed
| out the RAM, installed an SSD, and even upgraded the CPU. I like
| it even more than my Dell E5440. No, I cannot play Minecraft on
| it that well, but it is a SOLID laptop and it feels good to hold
| and type on.
| methuselah_in wrote:
| I have bought laptop in 2013 asus rog gaming one i suppose before
| it as well. Still rocking with i7. But it can still work with
| windows 11 but tpm makes it useless. So I have tried windows 11
| but it hangs a bit linux runs smoothly.
| dopadelic wrote:
| I used my T420 up till 2021.
|
| I upgraded the screen to a 1920x1080 IPS panel.
|
| SSD.
|
| I have a full-fledged workstation for anything that needs heavy
| lifting and I primarily used the laptop as a device to remote
| into my workstation.
|
| It was perfectly fine for standard web browsing and youtube.
| Melatonic wrote:
| How hard was it to upgrade the screen ?
| thecrumb wrote:
| Still have a T420 I keep in my toolbox in the garage. Use it to
| watch videos when I'm working on my bike or car. It's covered in
| grease and oil. Sits out there through summer/winter, high
| humidity, etc yet always boots up when I plug it in.
| kidel001 wrote:
| I too maintain an older thinkpad! i want to say T430 so probably
| not as old, maybe got in 2012 or so? In any case, I have
| replaced: the screen, the battery, the power button (3D printed),
| the hard drive, the RAM, and the entire internal fan /cooling
| structure, and probably some more things I've forgotten. Why?
| Well it's all been over the years. But 1) because you can! like
| this post describes. Also: it's been nice to have a windows
| system around that I can remote into for certain tasks that are
| difficult or impossible on linux, like using the adobe suite. The
| last time something broke (the fan) I looked up how much a used
| T430 costs on ebay (~$40-$50) and buying a new fan was still
| cheaper. So I fixed it. It's been like that every time and it's
| still here.
| normie3000 wrote:
| > I continue to use my MacBook because I like using proprietary
| software like ... Alfred
|
| Is this like saying you still boot Windows occasionally to use
| the Start menu?
| qzx_pierri wrote:
| I have a T450 with a issue that I haven't been able to figure out
| for years: When I shut the lid, the screen will shut off, and
| when I open the lid again, I can hear the fans spinning and I
| know the laptop is on, but the screen WILL NOT TURN BACK ON. I
| have to hold the power button to force power off and then start
| it up again.
|
| Issue happens in Windows and Linux. I tried disabling the sleep
| enhancement feature in the BIOS (can't remember what it's
| called).
|
| So it's just sitting on my bookshelf. Sad because it works great,
| but you just can't close the lid.
| Melatonic wrote:
| Did you disable hibernation ? Is the screen just turning off or
| is it going to sleep?
|
| Always recommend fully disabling hibernation in windows as it's
| useless - if it's NOT going to sleep then might be worth
| messing with the BIOS power settings
| tristor wrote:
| I used to do this, I have "retro modded" Thinkpads. I keep one
| still running (X61p) to use as a car computer. I've since
| switched everything I do that isn't on my Macbook to a Framework
| 13 AMD. The Framework 13, other than the case design being
| flimsier plastic vs magnesium alloy, is better at everything a
| new Thinkpad does than a new Thinkpad, and is roughly equivalent
| to an old with modern specs. As much as I wish that Lenovo would
| make a modern equivalent to the X60/X61, that's never happening,
| so Framework 13 is the best choice right now.
| Melatonic wrote:
| Retro modded like you replaced the mobo and whatnot ? How hard
| was it ?
| wiremine wrote:
| > MacBooks are not modular, completely proprietary, and have a
| perishability built into them.
|
| I'm ok with this... maybe I'm odd? I view my laptops like I view
| my cars: I expect them to be replaced after a period of time. I'm
| NOT trying to maintain my old 2002 Honda Civic, and I'm NOT
| trying to maintain my older Macbooks. Once they leave Apple Care,
| I expect maybe another 12 to 18 months out of them, and then I
| move on.
| mannykoum wrote:
| But being able to maintain an old car IS the expectation. Not
| being able to repair and prolong the lifetime of a car, find
| parts, not allowing third party equipment and mechanics to
| repair them, not being able to resell it many times...these are
| all recent anti-consumerist behaviour by either car
| manufacturers or tech companies.
| mattigames wrote:
| You may be Ok with it and in your view is you a little quirky
| trait of your personality, but for humanity is a survivability
| matter, the subcontext of this issue is planned obsolesce, and
| all the resources we are continuously extracting and the damage
| is doing to the planet, in this context I mean specifically the
| trend of getting a new laptop or a new phone every two years or
| so.
| Melatonic wrote:
| WALL OF TEXT WARNING - SORRY! :-D
|
| Recently pulled out a fairly modern Dell XPS that had a great
| OLED screen to read this thread and it was having some type of
| software or hardware issue.
|
| Booted up my old reliable Thinkpad T420 (bought it from a Russian
| kid in SF years ago who upgraded it with an SSD and 12gb of ram
| when it was close-ish to new - it even has Cyrillic on the
| keyboard since he bought it in Russia originally!!). Besides a
| few windows updates and requiring a new battery (25$ aftermarket)
| the thing works great.
|
| Forgot how damn nice those old Thinkpad scissor switch (I think
| that's the term) keyboards were - it truly feels almost
| mechanical keyboard like with a lot of travel. Did anyone ever
| sell a thin compact desktop keyboard with these style switches ?
| I could actually see it being very popular with people who like
| very low profile keyboards (like Apple desktops come with) but
| want something with more feedback.
|
| I considered briefly upgrading the mainboard and internals to
| something more modern (there's an aftermarket Chinese company
| that sells replacements) as I think the T420 is the last Thinkpad
| to have the nice keyboards and key layout. Then again it was
| handling everything I threw at it without issues (even plays 4K
| YouTube fine!) probably because it has a decent i5 CPU from when
| they still had hyper threading and dedicated Nvidia graphics (the
| old semi "Quadro" NVS line 4200m). So many little features on
| these that are unique - instead of a complicated backlit keyboard
| for example it has a little downward facing LED light on the
| screen that can be activated by a hot key and illuminates the
| keyboard nicely at night. It's not as pretty or fancy but I love
| the simplicity and the fact you can also use it to illuminate a
| paper notebook or anything else.
|
| One thing that does worry me is that Nvidia hasn't released
| updated drivers for this ancient chip since 2021 and I suspect
| eventually compatability will be an issue. I did have to disable
| hardware acceleration in the latest version of Libre Office (on
| Windows 10) to get it to work at all. I noticed in the BIOS it
| has options for Nvidia Optimus (meaning it also technically has
| an integrated intel GPU - currently disabled) so maybe worst case
| I will have to one day rely on that.
|
| Thing is a real brick and battery life sucks but I also forgot
| how nice it is to have so many ports - it has dedicated eSATA
| (still super useful with an external SNES cartridge like
| enclosure to quickly read internal 2.5" and 3.5" drives) and a
| slim card slot where I had added two USB 3 ports. CD player wont
| see much use these days but a dedicated full size Ethernet port
| is great and an empty (I think they called it Ultrabay?) slot
| means I could theoretically throw in another battery or some
| random accessory. Also has full size display port for modern TVs
| and displays and oldschool VGA for legacy stuff. There's a
| fingerprint read I've never used (wonder if this even works with
| modern Windows?). Forgot I had even upgraded the WiFi chip in
| this thing (no soldering!) so it was getting great internet
| speeds as well.
|
| I will say the cooling and fan situation though really suck - I
| forgot how damn loud the thing is with the fan even at 2/3 speed.
| I remember re-pasting the heat sink years ago thinking it might
| improve the situation and it didn't do much. Laptop was hitting
| 95C under load at first but after a little tweaking in the BIOS
| and the 99% trick to disable Turbo Boost it idles around 45-50C
| and hits about 85C briefly for high loads.
|
| Would love a modern version of the T420 with a nice 16:10 OLED,
| the exceptional keyboard, tons of ports and expansion and repair-
| ability, a modern cooling solution, and less power hungry CPU. I
| really don't care if my laptop is thicker or a little heavier -
| the screen size is what restricts what bags I can put it in and
| the 14" diagonal format is pretty ideal. 13" I find too small and
| 16"-17" is getting way too big. I kind of even have grown to like
| the thicker bezels in a world that seems obsessed with minimising
| them - they really don't add too much overall size and I suspect
| it must contribute to the durability of the laptop and screen in
| general.
|
| And of course gotta love a good track point mouse! With the
| mousepad disabled and my thumbs on the track point buttons you
| can transition from typing to moving the cursor around without
| ever needing to remove your hands from then keyboard - always
| loved the efficiency. I've had Dell and HP business class laptops
| with track points that also worked well but Thinkpad always had
| the best feeling thumb buttons.
|
| Seriously though - why are there no slim scissor switch external
| keyboards out there ?! A compact 87 key format one would be the
| perfect travel keyboard (bonus if it had a track point and thumb
| buttons)!
| vermaden wrote:
| I daily use FreeBSD on 2011 (14 years old now) legendary ThinkPad
| W520.
|
| Details here:
|
| - https://vermaden.wordpress.com/2022/04/14/freebsd-13-1-on-th...
|
| Article is about FreeBSD 13.1 - but as time passed I followed all
| new versions and its at 14.2 now.
|
| Config did not changed - still running strong.
| nipperkinfeet wrote:
| Same but with my desktop computer. Its going on 16 years and
| still runs like new.
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